Garry Nolan: UAP Disclosure, Data & the Future of Research

Transcript

[music] [music] Hi everyone and welcome back to That UFO podcast. As always, my name is Andy and my guest on today's episode is someone many of you will already be familiar with, Professor Gary Nolan. Gary is the Ratchford and Carla Ah Harris professor in the department of pathology at Stanford University School of Medicine and one of the world's leading immunologists. Over his career, he's published hundreds of scientific papers, made major contributions to cancer research and amunotherapy, and built a reputation as one of Stanford's most respected and innovative researchers. In recent years, Gary has also become a prominent voice in the scientific study of UFOs or UAP, bringing a credible datadriven approach to a topic that often sits on the fringes of mainstream science.

He's also the co-founder of the Saul Foundation, an organization dedicated to advancing academic and policy discussions around UAP and related phenomenon. always fascinating, always thoughtprovoking, and I'm really glad to have him back on the show to discuss the recent Saul Foundation Soul Symposium, the third annual, I should add. Um, his thoughts on Skyatcher and his part in that organization and their progress. We touch on thei Atlas. We touch on whistleblowers, the age of disclosure, and a whole lot more.

So, let me hand over to the interview, folks. Welcome to the podcast, Professor Gary Nolan. Gary, welcome back. >> Thanks so much. Happy to be here.

>> Good to have you on. Now, it's been just over a week since the Soul Foundation held its third annual symposium. I've already shared my thoughts with listeners in a previous episode discussing my experience um that the talks the whole weekend, but I'd love you to start off just by sharing your thoughts on the event held in the Lago Major. >> So, I mean, well, the feedback has been extremely positive. Uh but like anything you can have 99 great things in one uh let's say constructive critic uh and that's the only one that you remember because you want to fix that.

Um so I'll get to that maybe a little bit later. So I think you know the the general purpose of the of the meeting was first of all to you know acknowledge the fact that uh UAP are not a US phenomenon alone uh and that there uh was a lot of there's a lot of worldwide interest in it but not necessarily a lot of worldwide organization. I mean there's certainly lots of local community groups uh but coming together within um let's say the soul symposium as an umbrella uh so that all these groups could find common ground was probably one of the first purposes as well as just enable uh a lot of lay people or professionals who are interested in the matter uh to say okay well gee uh let's just hop over to Italy and and hear about Okay. So um the purpose of the of the meeting was at the very least to give uh the audience both European and world uh a sense of the breadth of what's going on with the you know research into the phenomena the reasoning be for why scientists or military or others have come forward with their notions that there's something here. Um, it was not meant to go into depth.

So, if you were an afficionado or a somebody who's totally up on everything around the the the matters of of UAP and its extended uh agendas uh of people looking into it, uh then maybe some of the some of the talks were not uh you know to your liking because you already knew about it. Well, that's great. uh but there's a lot of people who don't know anything about it and so those are some of the people that we want to be able to reach and I but I think what it tells us is that one of the things we need to do uh as a community is you know you're not going to convince anybody in five minutes that this is real. I mean I'm not even convinced what is real about it and I've been in it now for 14 years. Uh I know that there's definitely something and I have lots of uh notions about it and there you can nail it down but uh to definitively say it's one thing uh escapes a sinful five minute conversation.

So I think the real purpose of meetings like this is to give people the you know here's a bit of data that you can chew on. Uh you know if you trust that it's real what does it mean? Um I mean science in itself is is not a series of statements about reality. It's a series of questions uh about reality of you know here's the observation what does it mean? And so to the extent that anybody can be uh lured into it. uh then this would be the you know one of the purposes of the soul meeting was to say here's here's something that you can use as a snippet to go on and uh talk to others about it who might not be as into the phenomenon as as you are. >> Yeah.

>> So in that sense it was to me it was a great success. >> Absolutely. I think hearing people like General Pierre Biscond, Fabio Damasi sitting on stage and and having discussions, Fabio Damasi himself a member of European Parliament saying he's only really been interested or are paying attention to the topic for a short period of time, a couple of years at most, but there were shoots of progress and ideas springing up and suggestions on stage of perhaps Saul could be the, you know, the launch pad for this or perhaps, you know, we could get together and discuss this. And I imagine people expect a lot of the the progress to come from the conversations that happen after the talks over dinner at the bar and going forward. Is that fair? >> Yeah.

And you know, it's funny. I just got off our weekly meeting with the soul core group, you know, and Jonathan and Mara were both extreme and they're both, of course, they live in Europe. We're both extremely excited that, you know, they can now uh spend some time uh with European groups. there's a Swiss subgroup especially uh that are interested in the phenomena so they don't have to you know have a conversation with somebody nine hours different six to nine hour difference they can actually have conversations with people in their own time zone you know I mean just think of it what the the totality of the European community is bigger than the size of the United States in terms of the total number of people so you know there's uh there's a there to be done and I don't think that you know there's this there's a push back in the media uh especially more in Europe and a reticence about talking about the phenomenon but you know to to the point of data uh Beatrice uh Villo you who was sort of the breakout star of the of the moment uh we had by chance put her as first uh speaker of the meeting and heard two papers, three papers uh had just come out and one of them in one of the Nature uh family of journals peer- reviewviewed uh about the transients uh and the statistics around it and uh you know that has gotten worldwide attention I mean and and a lot in all the major newspapers in Europe. So, you know, the the the subject matter is not off the agenda.

It's just the European community or European journals, uh, newspapers, med media, etc. had a bit of a higher standard uh of what it is that was required to break through and Beatatric's work broke through that barrier. uh and so a lot of conversations uh are being started around that especially you know I've seen some back and forth with uh Beatatrice and let's say a certain individual in the debunker community uh without naming names and it's not MC West uh and he takes his usual snide and smug approach I'll just say Kirkpatrick uh that could easily be dismissed um And uh I I I read his comments and I was like, "This guy's never going to get it." And no wonder nobody likes him. >> Sorry, Sean. [laughter] >> I'm sure he's listening.

Um the >> the the talks themselves took place over two and a half days. Those are going to be up and available eventually on the YouTube page uh for us all. Um the the streaming date has now passed. I believe that was up until the 2nd of November. Um, but one thing I really enjoyed personally was being able to follow up with some of the speakers and I was really fortunate on day one, big shout out to Madic Von Ren Camp for handing me the microphone for two two questions.

Um, and I want to get your take. First off, Carl Nell, um, he was speaking with Richard Dolan just last week or the week before now during the N paradigm institutees global disclosure day. And he had talked about and it went kind of viral on the UFO scene that this cycle of disclosure had ended with the UP disclosure act failing for a third time. There had to be a change of tact. And I wonder what do you think about that? Do you agree with that? And what do you see as the way forward? Well, first of all, Carl gave I think the second or uh he gave a he gave a talk which was as usual tremendous, you know, with his insights and scholarliness about the matter.

Um, you know, and and depth, you know, we in typical Carl's style, uh, you know, just barged with data, information, insights, etc. So, um, so I I thought his talk was was great and can be and his PowerPoint, frankly, could be mined for, uh, a paper or two if Carl were were willing to write for soul. Um, second, uh, you know, I I I don't fault Carl for saying that this round has has ended because I think he's very connected, of course, um, to the writing of the UAPDA. So probably feels uh disheartened uh because of the politics that he cannot um change. But having said that uh it's also clear that it's not over.

You know that there still seems to be some life in the UAPDA uh as evidenced by things that some politicians have been saying as well as workarounds. So I think um Carl can take heart in that in the fact that he's driven it to this level. He's opened the door at the congressional and senatorial level. Uh and although the bill hasn't got passed, I mean look, lots of bills don't pass, even things that should pass that have nothing to do with UAP. So because of politics.

So uh but the conversation has started and that's mostly what we wanted to have happen. Of course, there needs to be some legislative action, but I think as well, and I said this publicly at the meeting, it points to the need for us to not depend upon the government for disclosure and go about our own way of doing it ourselves. >> One organization that is trying to do that and had a speaker present was Jake Barber, uh, co-founder of Skyatcher. Um, again I got to follow up on Jake's talk which was fascinating and it it closed off day one and I asked him about his statement that was made earlier this year we where he said Skywatcher was conducting field operations to bring hard data to the UAP mystery aiming to deliver definitive results by the end of the year. I asked Jake about that statement and is that still plausible and he told me there's no reason that they can't at least at least release some quality data soon.

They're going around through around 10 terabytes worth currently being analyzed though that claim of the end of the year might slip into early 2026. And from your perspective as part of Skyatcher yourself, what's your sense of where things are with Skywatcher and what they can potentially bring to the table? >> Well, I mean, we did show a couple of the videos of the of the sightings uh as well as pictures. Um that was those were Jake's uh pictures. Um, and James of course talked about his work uh on the last day. Uh, you know, I'm literally deeply involved in in the data analysis and that probably won't be ready by the end of the year.

We're still still dealing with um some figuring out what the files are, the timing of the files, etc. So, there will be results, but they're not going to be frankly as definitive as as I would like. But what they are what they're doing is, you know, there's lots of cool stuff there. Um, but I can't write a paper uh if I don't know exactly what's going on with all of the dates that some of the files were collected, etc., and aligning the various sightings and the various sensor meetings. Um, I think we're going to get there.

Uh, we're figuring it out, figure, uh, what's what's going on. The file structures are incredibly complex and unfortunately the radar operator company is not telling us exactly how to decode their file structures. Um they're just being obstinate. Uh and that's nobody's fault except the radar company who made the instrument. Um I I'm I'm perplexed as to why that's uh the case.

Um because they sold us the the radar. [laughter] Okay. >> Um, so, uh, so we'll fix that. But what it is doing is setting us perfectly up and we had a long conversation yesterday among some of the Skywasher group for the next uh, events that will run. Um, they will not be as public.

The, uh, revolution will not be televised. Uh but um we will be doing some other data collections with actually a very formal uh group that works on radar who are helping us set it all up properly. Next time >> I missed the James Fowler talk. I missed all the talks on the Monday because uh I booked my flights. I think several folks did for early on the Monday morning.

And big shout out to a friend of yours. Forgive me a lift back to the airport uh Gary. Um it was uh one I was really disappointed to miss James Fowler now he of course left Skywatcher back in in August and I just wonder having missed that talk is is there an impact has there been a big loss not having James Fowler as part of the organization anymore things >> I mean James is officially separated but that doesn't mean that the conversations uh haven't been continuing with the data that was collected with him uh and by him and he's he's you know he's as involved as he needs to be. And that doesn't mean I'm not that's not a legalistic way of of saying he's not. It's it now is in the hands of data analysts.

Uh and so uh you know that that won't change because there's been a handover of what it is that we need to do next time. Uh and we'll just run the next one. So, you know, the the frank answer is no because James is still at least advised in, you know, involved in in in an advisorial role. Um, and you know, he's got to he's got to make money and that's what the main separation as far as I understood it was that uh basically he needs to run a company that makes money for his family. uh and using some of the uh the uh detection and sensor systems that he has and working with the government.

And that's separate from let's say the more scientific mission of Skywatcher, which isn't to make money, >> despite people who say that it's a grift. I mean, every everything that people don't understand or want to have something negative to say about is a grift. Um, so, uh, to some people, which just instantly signals to me is that they're the equivalent of a bot and will be and will be blocked. The bots will be blocked. Um, so, uh, so no, I mean, you know, and he, as you might have seen, he was hanging with the Skywatcher group, uh, continuously.

>> Yeah. I think for many you signal the canary in the coal mine for Skyatcher because you've you've made comments that if they were doing or behaving or acting in a way that you felt was inappropriate morally. Um if they were trying to shoot something down they shouldn't be shooting down, you would walk away. You made those comments and the fact you're still there for me and for other people is a positive sign and I take it that's a mark of the work they're doing that you're still there. Well, I I I think the way to look at it is you've got you've got three um communities uh within SkyWatcher and cultures.

There's the science community that I represent and a couple of others. Um there's the military. I mean, you people might not have noticed, but there were several guys uh with their girlfriends or wives hanging around with Jake who actually were all out uh on the range with us for each of the events uh as security or um you know, helping set things up. Uh and so they were all there, great guys. um scary at first when I first met them.

Uh but you know, very professional guys. Um so you got the military community or military culture. And then you've got uh Alex Clous who is, you know, funneling money from other people as well as some of his own through uh a uh corporation. um again it's nonprofit uh to make um to get money to Skywatcher to collect data. Um and so there's a there's a move fast and break things aspect to a lot of the entrepreneurial groups that fund things like this with expectations that the data, you know, you you collect the data and the next day it all be done.

Um, and so, uh, the short answer is part of this, at least what I see as the the delay has been merging of the cultures and getting and getting everybody to understand that we'll get nowhere unless, frankly, you do it my way, the [laughter] science [gasps] at least. And so, everybody's just going to have to adapt. Uh so it's been like um you know but I mean there's still pressures from especially the the financial side to say well let's just get something done. So that that's the that's the whip that keeps us going to to move fast and not just do it as the normal academic rate but there is a a process that at least I've gone through for decades with complex data sets uh and then teaching people how to do things. I mean, I've had to [snorts] I've had to teach some of the data analysts we're working with some of the more complex statistical systems that we use for gene analysis because they can be adapted.

You know, basically gene analysis is you have multiple vectors of information that you want to group like with like. So, if you've got tracks of data of things moving in different ways, there are statistical regimens you can apply. even if you very know very little about them. Uh to to track uh and uh organize um things that are like with like uh so uh you know adapting the programs to that which is actually going to be my my role is to rewrite some of the algorithms uh to do that and it's it's a it's a form of cluster analysis >> advanced cluster analysis. No, that's I appreciate that.

And I suppose is it is it difficult to put a time scale then on when we may see more public data the next kind of set of results from Skywatcher at this point? >> Yeah. I mean maybe winter. I mean I'm I'm not going to put a number on it. I mean it'll come but you know it's it's you know people have lives. I have lots to do.

Uh and so uh you know but we we have weekly regular meetings and there's about eight people on it. So, you know, that that tells you that it's it's not just sitting there. >> Uh, and people are being paid to work. So, um, I'm not being paid anything, but people are being paid to work. People think that I'm making money left or right.

I'm [laughter] make money elsewhere, but not a penny yet on this. >> And to be fair, Gary, I never saw you buy a single drink at Saul, so you know, um, clearly you're you're you're not that rich for it. Um, but no, you were very busy the whole event uh for the two and a half days. I think I spent about 15 seconds talking to you at one point because I could see you were being stopped every single couple of feet along corridors. >> Yeah, it was it was it was nice and I really do appreciate it.

But I think next time I'm going to ask people just to, you know, I mean, not approach me, but just let's not spend the first 30 seconds saying, you know, nice things about me. [laughter] Yeah. Um and and I wonder then looking ahead, what are your hopes for the next 12 months of the Saul Foundation and will there be a fourth symposium? You know, um so we've been talking about that. I think um you know, look, putting together the symposium each year has been a huge effort, you know, because again, we don't make any money on it. Uh I think we barely came out a little in red.

uh on it. Um and but yet there's to fund it was a huge effort. >> I mean just look at I mean look at the number of people who are there like 400 people >> big place getting the IT etc. So I don't think we want to do that again next year. I think um we're going to make some smaller, more targeted um meetings uh because I think one of the at least critiques that I heard of the meeting itself was that it it didn't necessarily have an overall theme apart from just getting it something in you know I mean there were multiple themes throughout the the the days and I don't think a conference has to have a theme per se.

claim I mean the theme was UAP. >> So um but there are targeted uh information settings uh and groups within the totality of the UAP community that we want to focus on. I mean certainly one of the next meetings is going to be in DC and it will be smaller and it will be probably dedicated uh to trying to get staffers andor congress people there. Um and so there and therefore it will be limited. We don't want a 500 person room.

We want something just for a day, >> you know, because it I I think you can keep doing these things and not accomplish a goal if you don't focus. Uh and so, you know, we're going to have a few focused events probably in San Francisco, LA, uh London. uh one of the participants in Europe who's actually a good friend of mine um will help with getting one in Paris. Uh so uh you know I think that's going to be the goal is several smaller ones so that in totality it will have equal 500 person group but they're going to be in 100% increments. And thinking about the impact to the symposium and some of the ideas that were discussed there, I wonder what areas of this topic do you think we are making real progress in and where do you see a lack of progress or even regression? um regression.

I don't see any regression. You know, I think there were some complaints that uh because the notion of um uh C5 of some kind came up in my discussion with Jake, there were a couple of people in the audience who thought it was unscientific and that my presence was uh somehow condoning uh C5. And I'm like, oh, I mean, look, it's been the the notion has been around for 20 plus years. So, uh, that it was part of a discussion should surprise nobody. Uh, and I reject, frankly, uh, anybody saying that it shouldn't be.

>> Uh, and and that it's not science. And I'm sorry. Science is just what we don't understand yet. You know, I mean, we just need to understand it. uh I don't understand it.

Um I don't know that there's an experiment that I can do except correlation uh that would show that it's real. Um so you know my sitting on stage is is neither condoning it nor rejecting it. It's just saying well it is so let's it's part of the discussion. Um there's a claim that that was how one of the uh objects was um showed up. I I don't know that that's the case.

Um so it's it's correlation, not causation. Um and uh so let's just um you know my my focus is going to be on on electronic calling u and not and not um so-called mental C5 aspects because I I just don't know how to control it. And frankly, I think if we if we are to do it with humans, I I would prefer to have IRB, institutional review board clinical oversight of something like that because it it kind of almost sounds um like it's uh it's working with humans. I'm not saying it's human experimentation, but I just I I I would like some sort of, you know, oversight uh from a uh a clinical or psychological or psychiatric aspect uh because that would make it easier to turn it into into real science. >> And in terms of any progress you feel either from the event or since, is there any direction you think this is somewhere that should really be a route to focus on? Well, I think the last speaker uh sorry I'm blanking um on whistleblowers uh needed uh that was great and very emotional.

Jeff Nusatelli. >> Yes, thank you. Um, Nusatelli, Jeff. And, uh, I I think that there still needs to be work there done. I don't know that the Soul Foundation is the is the best forum for that.

Uh, because in in part that's lobbying. Um, but there are other organizations out there. Uh, I mean, uh, I think UAP Disclosure Group, whatever they were before, um, UAP, >> Disclosure Fund, >> Disclosure Fund, has just changed their name now to Disclosure Foundation, >> which is great. Um, it's actually easier to remember. >> Uh, and, um, that's the one that Chris Melon is the chair of over there, and there are several great people, uh, on that.

and one of their focuses of course is uh helping whistleblowers. So I I think to the extent that we can help the disclosure fund with their efforts for whistleblowers um you know that would be great because I I think they should probably take the legal lead personally I think for that. um we don't want to be everything and nor should we be cuz it's you know it's just easier to work as as m you know multiple groups. So that is something that I think really needs to go forward. Um, you know, and and Jeff underscored sort of the request for, you know, is there a way to get enough money for people who are uh whistleblowers who might lose their jobs uh to support them uh or to pay for some of their legal costs, you know, and that's I mean, you're talking very large sums of money there, >> you know.

There's two ways to do that. you either get the money directly and and pay them or you get enough money that you can pay through principle of not principle through um in the investment sort of an endowment. But you I mean to pay for people like that, you're really talking about honestly about a hundred million dollar endowment that would generate 10 million a year, let's say, or five million a year uh that could be used to pay for uh some of these people's longer term uh job losses that they might incur because of coming forward and the legal costs. I mean, I've I just had a legal case that I had to deal with um that was stupid, but out of pocket it was $100,000 for me. Folks, if you are watching this on YouTube, thank you so much.

And don't forget to like, subscribe, and comment if you are enjoying the content. It means the world of difference to me. It makes a massive difference to the channel and the algorithm. So, thank you so much. Let me put you back to the show now.

>> Yeah. And I wonder I won, but it still cost me $100,000. >> Yeah. And it's a difficult conversation and I didn't actually know the UEDF had changed from fund to foundation. And I think whenever people see money and like you see I know you get a lot of bot comments and and such online, >> money fund, asking for donations, selling merchandise for, you know, whatever cause.

A lot of folks get the kind of red flags up with that. Uh but there is also the the conversation that you need money to do X Y and Z and how is that meant to come about? >> Yeah. I mean, look, if if if anybody were getting rich on this, uh that would be great, but that's certainly not the case. So, people can red flag it all they want. I I I just don't care anymore.

>> I really I mean, you're >> you're just you're like a you're like a a fly bashing against a window. I don't care. Um, one thing I found really interesting was the folks who came and spoke to me who were attending the conference, but they didn't want themselves to be photographed. They were sat at a certain section of the the the auditorium. Um, I had a few folks come up to me who listen to this podcast who work for various interesting organizations um, who were there and I wonder did you get to have some interesting conversations with folks like that? >> I mean, a lot of people came up to you, but I honestly couldn't I mean, I was burned out.

uh you know by the by the conversations uh the numbers uh and uh so no I I honestly didn't have any unfortunately meaningful time to have deep conversations uh except with UAP Ireland the the group from UAP Ireland I uh uh spent a lot of time with them drinking >> yeah there was some time for that and folks who if they haven't attended an event like this it's my first proper UAP conference, event, symposium, whatever you want to label it. Um, >> so how did you like it? Let me interview you. >> Oh, genuinely loved it. I my hesitation beforehand was am I going to come away from it? Um, having just attended an event and having no real rejuvenation of the topic, feeling refreshed, feeling energized, feeling positive. And I did.

Um, like you, I felt quite burnt out. I was really grateful the amount of folks who came and spoke to me. And I'm a nobody that's there compared to all these, you know, celebrities walking about and pilots and military personnel and academics. But yeah, it was there was a lot of conversation going on a lot of the time. Um, and I I I would encourage anyone who can get to an event like that, even just from the networking perspective, it was fantastic to speak to people, like-minded people, and the quality of the backgrounds of folks who were there.

I almost felt embarrassed, you know, when folks who didn't know me were like, "Oh, what do you do?" And I'm I'm podcaster, you know, and you've got all these incredible titles and academics and whatnot speaking to you with all these fascinating ideas. So, I loved it. It was what I kind of hoped it would be. Um, and the the setting and backdrop wasn't too shabby either. So, >> yeah.

>> No. Uh, I you know, I really have to honor um Jonathan and Mara for for finding that site and picking it. It was just a spectacular background and the hotel itself was great. Um, no no comments there whatsoever. Um, though uh I do think um I'm just going to say this on behalf of my assistant.

Uh they need to find the things that they that she left in her room. Uh, so please uh please do that or there's going to be some issues. So I I I did have I did have a little bit of problem with some of the some of the staff of the um of the hotel overall. Just to say it openly, I I I didn't think that they were always uh friendly even to me who's supposed to be the organizer. Um I I felt uh a little bit of uh snarkiness from them.

So uh I'm just going to say that publicly. Um, so let's see. So I thought there was a really good talk um from the uh where is he? The uh Carl Yeah, there he is. Um Carl Sposzel. Uh his talk was fantastic um on the you know stagnation in physics inspiration from the skies.

I think a lot of people had some really good >> uh feedback from him or about him. Uh and uh you know I thought his science was deep. I mean so I thought it was great. >> Carl was the I believe he was on day one and I think he was the o only talk I missed from the first day because I ended up being pulled aside from the uh there was a documentary crew there from the UK >> who I'd spent a bit of time with talking to over the summer and helping them get in touch with some folks. um and uh they pulled me aside to do a little bit of recording with them and then I I missed that but I heard Carlo is fantastic and very funny from what I'm told as well which I always appreciate.

>> Yeah. So I you know I mean all of these are going to be up on um on the website and we've been talking maybe I'll just sort of put it out there. Uh we've been talking about finding somebody with the energy to uh help us put out some little Tik Tok videos and uh Instagram videos. uh of snippets from the from the talks. I I I think we're going to make a um an effort to create a number of of snippets, put them in a folder for people to tick and Instagram them, you know, both on behalf of Soul as well as run it with themselves.

Um >> I'll mention at the end to you when we finish, but I can probably help you with that pretty easily. Um but yeah um I want to go on to a couple of things on recent headlines Gary just before we get to listener questions. Time will rapidly get away from is um couple of big news stories that I wanted your opinion on that have been kind of covering things. First off three Atlas has been all over the news with a lot of misinformation flying around and I wonder have you been following that story at all and what's your take? you know, I've been following it. I mean, mostly I follow Avi on it because I feel like he'll give uh the most credible science on it, you know, and I think as he's pointed out, it's doing a few strange things.

Now, strange doesn't mean alien, but strange means it's not a normal comet, you know, uh by the by the very definition. And I saw something again this morning. I needed to follow up on that there's a there's a potential second indication that it's it's it seems to be accelerating. >> Now, I don't know whether that's real or not, you know, but it looked like it was coming from a credible source. So, I I think, you know, look, what Avi has been able to do um is take what would otherwise be a benal proaic event uh of just another and and and let the and and and let the astronomers hold the bag.

Az ripped the bag off of these individuals and said, "No, I'm going to show you that you still can't say that it's not a alien vehicle." And I [clears throat] think he's I think he is magnificently >> frustrating uh the astronomer community who want to just stuff it in a normal old boring comet bag. And so kudos to him on all of that cuz he's relentless. >> Yeah. And I think if people have actually watched what A has said, and I've not watched all of his interviews. He's done about 5,000 of them the last couple of months [laughter] on this.

Um, he's been all over the place, but he he isn't saying this is an alien mother shipper. You know, he's saying it's likely something prosaic in terms of it's an interstellar object. It's only the third one we have tracked. So, when we say it's doing unique things, that doesn't mean that they don't commonly do these. We're just getting to find these for the first time and study it.

And he's trying to pull along people's curiosity. >> Exactly. >> And the scientific community should jump on this to study, not as an alien vehicle. I mean, if it turns out to be that >> potentially great, potentially not. It comes to destroy us.

Who knows? But Aby's just saying, be scientific, be curious, let's study this. Let's get involved. I'd like to think out there there are a whole generation of children perhaps seeing this on YouTube, watching viral clips online and it it it pushes them on to get involved in that kind of arena to >> to be curious and maybe along the line one of these things comes in that does sh show unique you know >> well this is already showing something unique I mean I I I think a's participation in this has elevated the discussion and made it far more interesting to a lot of people. I mean, it's it's, you know, it's he's now, you know, as you said, on bazillions of uh, you know, news shows or podcasts. And I think coming in at the same time as Beatatric's work, it sort of was a a great one two uh that elevated the discussion.

If if if anything, I wish Soul had the money to put little advertisements alongside every article that came out on on 3II or um Beatatric's work. You know, maybe in retrospect we still can, but um I I think that it's I'm still interested in it. So, let's see. >> Yeah. Um secondly, the Telepathy Tapes season 2 has just come out and I spoke with telepathy tapes.

>> Oh, okay. >> Um, h have you watched or followed any of the work? >> I have not. I have not. And not because of disinterest, just because of time. I just can't do everything.

>> No, that's fair enough. Um, quite a few listener questions came in about your your work with the Kadi Putaman. I'm butchering that. Um, the idea that non-verbal autistic children may have telepathic abilities. And just from your opinion, is that an avenue of research you think is is worth going down? >> I wish somebody would do it.

I can't. I mean, I've got my the projects that I'm doing already give me anxiety that I'm I'm not spending enough time on on them. And I'm by that I'm actually talking, you know, mostly about my lab. You know, my my Stanford lab is uh you know, the last few months has sort of taken uh a second seat, but now it's time to put it back in the front seat. Uh because I mean that that's really where my heart is >> is in the cancer research >> and fair play.

I watched your Joe Rogan interview um and it was fantastic and even that first hour where you don't really touch on UFOs UAP I found it really fascinating and I've I've got a close friend just now going through stage four lung cancer advanced cancer and can see what that does to people and and everything. And so it's really important work and and uh I've donated a lot of uh money recently to cancer research organizations and stuff because of it. So if folks want to reach out at this time of year and donate, you know, it's always a good good uh good way to go. Um and also last thing this month, November 21st, the Age of Disclosure documentary is sent for release finally. >> I wonder if you managed to see the documentary yet.

>> Oh yeah. No, I've seen it. Um I was in Austin at the opening. It was great. Um, I was at I was in in it briefly.

We'll see if I made it through to the final cut or I got or whether I got left on the uh on the editing floor. Uh, but it doesn't matter because um, you know, the real voices uh, that are important here uh, h are saying what they're what what's there. It's funny. I saw some like on Rotten Tomatoes or something, a few reviewers who who said, "Oh, well, you know, this is just a bunch of people saying this or that." I mean, maybe just a bunch of people. Look at the names and the titles of who these bunch of people are, you idiot.

I mean, it's just it's just this I I don't know. I I I don't get it. But it's probably going to be number one on Netflix, so they can all go take a hike. >> Amazon Prime, it's coming out on first. Um, >> is it Amazon Prime? Okay.

Sorry. >> Yeah, Amazon Prime first and it is to buy and then it's going to be available to rent >> for folks who have been asking about that. But do do you see um do you see this moving the needle in a substantive way publicly? >> You know, I I think a little bit I I don't think we should get our hopes up that it's going to change everything. Um but enough people are going to watch it that it's going to create a receptive uh community. Uh I mean this is any change in culture especially something as momentous as are we alone uh is absent the mother ship landing you know in the Atlantic you know uh where everybody can see it or what's left of the White House lawn um you know uh is um going to be you know important Maybe the maybe the changes that uh President Trump are making will make it more receptive.

I do like the patio that everybody's complaining about though. I actually like it. >> You know, um being outside the US, I I do still follow the US news and when we've had a lot of talk around um a building being over a UFO. Perhaps that's just the whole plan all along. It was part of the White House.

It was over the top of a massive saucer >> and they're just trying to excavate for it. Who knows? Um, >> no. So, I think I I I I think it's going to open a lot more people's minds and is something more that one can talk about. I mean, I was recently on um before I came to the soul meeting, I was on Richard Branson's island uh for a a short gathering. It was six speakers.

as I was one of the speakers, multiple individuals who paid for the right to listen to us six people talk about cancer and artificial intelligence. Um, but I was asked to speak about a little bit about the UFO stuff that I'm interested in. And you know, Richard Branson was there for most of the meeting. Um, and uh I'm not allowed to name everybody anybody who was there other than myself. Um the uh and there were some important people there.

Um I kind of made the you know I talked about the general notion of it uh and I made the comment if everybody wants to know the real secrets I can be bribed with martinis. Well that was an opening that everybody used and so I you know I didn't drink all the martinis I was offered. Uh but all anybody wanted to talk about afterwards I mean a lot of people just want to talk about the UFO stuff. They [clears throat] were interested. Um, and I did the same thing that I did on the Rogan show where I spent the first, you know, portion talking about the regular science to establish credibility.

And then I talked about the UAP. >> Yeah. >> Um, so they knew that I wasn't just a a total loan. I'm still a loon, but by some people's measure [snorts] >> and that certainly worked on the Rogan podcast. I like to check out the comments on YouTube below.

And I think people really appreciated that the the way you spoke what you spoke about and then to go into >> the UAP topic. >> Yeah. >> It it holds a credibility about it. >> I was actually shocked. I was expecting cringe reading the comments, but they were, you know, uniformly positive.

>> Yeah. No, I definitely thought so. Um, you mentioned one thing earlier just before I get to listener questions to finish off. there would be one thing you would fix about the the symposium or soul uh effort this year and you said you would get back to it. Did you mention that already or >> I did I did it was it was um about uh >> the theme.

>> Yeah. About focusing um and uh you know which is one of the reasons why making three or four focused smaller meetings would be better. Uh I mean we'll still stream them. We had some problems with the streaming. Um, you know, some, you know, glitches turning it on for some people and we're trying to make amends.

Uh, we're sorry. Um, we really are. And, uh, so I I think, you know, having streaming for each of these other events will alleviate people, you know, and their fear of missing out. Uh but we'll get the people in the room who matter from a you know from a you know they're going to make the they're going to make the changes we need >> point of view. Um so uh so yeah so I feel good about that.

So that was really what I was talking about. >> Yeah. Awesome. Let's finish off with some last questions and sorry to the the many many many of you overundred people who sent in questions for Gary. I've picked a few of them to get to.

Um first off was Melanie. She says Dr. Nolan, was the Kadati Pataman anomaly research ever published? And if so, where? >> Um, well, I mean, the anomalies themselves were not uh published, but I published three papers uh and I can send you the links later to PDFs. I can send you the PDFs and you can just put them on your website and people can download them. >> Yeah, sure.

um work that uh I did with Maria Modi at Harvard uh and a posttock there that I paid for um on uh first getting baseline values for normal brains what is the normal range of sizes autistic brains and then that's the work actually the reason why Maria Modi was involved is that's her research focus the shape of the shape of um brain regions uh and and differences in autistics. But luckily the data set that we used I think it was the German data set of MRIs also included schizophrenas. Uh and so we had for all of those individuals deep um psychological and intelligence values set up so we could do a a meta correlation of brain region sizes. So we had written several years ago before it was wide before anything like this was widely done um algorithms which could uh call out the various brain regions get volumes surface areas etc automatically. Believe it or not, that was not anything commonly done.

Um, and then, uh, we did all the correlations and lo and behold, uh, the codate, not so much the patamon was highly correlated to all positive indices of, uh, intelligence and intuition. Full stop. Um, so that the reason for doing such a prosaic, I mean, it was still interesting. We actually could say here's a structure for autism uh or autistics that seems common. So there's actually a brain region uh involved and here's the structure for schizophrenia.

I mean not all schizophrenia obviously but we definitely saw differences and that matched prior work that had others had done that already pointed out differences in the codate and the patamon and the basil ganglia related to autism and schizophrenia. So um it was already in the medical literature that these changes exist. So the question is are they valuable changes right because you know we we call neurode divergent it's a nice way of saying things that people used to mean as mean >> uh uh but that mean that really means that there are differences in brain structure associated with behavior >> uh or capabilities I mean who would be surprised at that uh the fact that we found it correlated to the codate uh to me is the necessary baseline a foundational work that was necessary before we go on and do anything more exotic. First of all, it establishes a track record that I can publish in neurohysiology. Um, I'm certainly not a neurohysiologist.

Uh, but as with any work uh where you're outside of your field, you just get the expert in that field to work with you, which is what I did with the Yakama. H um question from Algo. He says, "This question is about the physiology of NHI. Many are described as thin with large heads. What are the odds such beings could actually move or walk normally under Earth's gravity? And do you recognize the features of a functioning living organism in such accounts?" >> Great question.

I've had that exact point to make myself is that it if anything's proof that they're not really from another planet, it's exactly what he's saying. >> Um, that's at least to me, you know, it's it's it makes I have a very difficult time understanding first of all why they would even look like us. I mean that to me just from I I just don't I I I I've yet to be shown a reason why two arms, two legs and a head uh you know uh make sense as the best form. I mean it happened to us be for us because a 100 million years ago whatever it was that clim climbed out of the swamp happened to have two fins and two back two front fins and two back fins that eventually evolved into legs. Uh so uh so the the form was set uh several hundred million years ago or a couple hundred million years ago.

So, I don't know that on another planet it had to be two legs, two arms, and then ending up looking like us. Maybe maybe it is a uniform, but we won't know until we get out there. >> Um, so, but then then there's the gravity issue, which I think he mentioned. >> Yeah. >> Which is um Yeah.

I mean, you're looking at something that's really thin and yet able to walk in our planet. I don't know, maybe it's bolstered somehow internally, uh, you know, um, some sort of artificial ability to enable them to walk. So, to me, if anything, it supports the notion that these things are created, you know? I mean, we we see thin and we think not strong, but look at a chimpanzee of your same size and stature and it's 10 times stronger than you. >> It could rip you apart. literally rip your arms off.

And and so there's something about the musculature uh and the tendons, etc. of a chimpanzeee that's perhaps no no stronger looking than us. And so maybe that's what's going on with the grays. You know, this is all maybe maybe. I mean, I'm not saying any of this is definitive.

So, you know, I'm just sort of get I have to constantly say that. So to to ward to ward off the the evil National Inquirer or Daily Mail from miscloning me. Um so it's like my little mantra that gets rid of the evil spirits. Um so uh so yeah I agree with him. >> I Yeah.

No, I like that question and I love this one too. KR says, "Should we be engaging biologists more to understand how our own senses and faculties might limit what we can perceive as a way to better understand the phenomenon? Forgive the analogy, but if you put a starfish on an airplane, from its perspective, it's entered another dimension. We, the higher intelligence, know where there's ocean, land, and sky. But the starfish has no concept of flying at 500 mph at 30,000 ft. Are we just starfish in someone else's ocean? And if so, shouldn't biology have more to say about how our systems filter out what's beyond our ocean? >> I agree.

Um, I think there's, you know, there's certainly lots of consciousnesses uh discussions, consciousness discussions and frankly whole symposia uh about the nature of human consciousness and what it is. Um, I think Stuart Hammeroff and uh, Roger Penrose are in some ways leading the charge on taking consciousness out of the hands of the neurohysiologists and saying it's not just neurons that there's something else going on. Uh and no matter what it ends up being whether it's neurohysiology and electric sparks between neurons uh and or or you know electrical signals or is it something deeper uh allah the um tyrrosine stacking in the microtubules I it doesn't matter they're both embedded in spacetime uh And so whatever those events are, whether it's sparks between the between neurons, you electrical pulses, um the pulsing of the brain overall uh and the electric fields that are now understood to transmit information from one side of the brain to the other independent of the of the neurons or some contribution of the microtubules uh to computation. um you know uh it doesn't matter because again it's embedded in spacetime. So maybe as your listener or your asker questioner is is alluding to is that maybe there's some changes down at the level of the plank scale where all the things are really interacting that certain structures might be antennas or transmitters that we just don't understand yet.

>> You know, and that if you could tap into that lower level, maybe you could see other things. not see things that aren't there, but perceive aspects of communication that might be just outside of our range. Um, you know, Jacques Valet and I wrote uh a SETI paper for SETI. Um, we were asked to go. They said, "Okay, well, we're going to take G we'll we'll accept Gary, but we're not going to accept Jacques." And I was like, "Uh, no.

Uh, that's rude." Um but we still put the paper out. Um where and this was basically a a question about the um the Fermy paradox and uh etc. about you know why do we why do we not see anything? Maybe because we're looking for the same same thing. And maybe it's a maybe it's a matter of finding consciousness where consciousness might house itself uh rather than uh techno signatures. Uh and so um you know I I I I agree with her.

Is that a woman? I think what was >> that one was KR. So literally the letters KR could be anything. >> No idea. um him or her uh and uh you know so yeah it's it's but how do you think like an alien is the big question um if we don't even understand how it is that humans think. So uh I actually was asked by um Stuart to do a talk at in a meeting coming up about um you know how do aliens think? I I actually don't even know how to begin to put together a talk like that.

So, it's gonna I'm gonna have to think about that. Um because it's it's really trying to think outside yourself. >> Uh so, it's it's going to be a it's going to be a hard thing to talk about. And so, whether I talk about that or something else, I don't know yet. >> Yeah.

It's a little bit like smashing open the TV to try and find the actors inside whereas they're coming from a different place and the signal somewhere else and >> Right. >> Yeah. Um, let me finish then because we're running out of time, Gary, with this final question and I'll let you keep it as short as you want. From the human nutrino, um, what do you see on the horizon for the disclosure movement and are you aware of any developments that might move the the needle? >> Um, I mean, yes, I'm aware of things that if they happen will be great, but I can't, you know, I won't talk about them. They're not secret, but it's just there's, you know, one of the things I know about things that are on the edge of happening is that if you give them too much public attention, they don't happen because the trolls show up.

Um, so, uh, yeah, I mean, I'm still I'm still positive about it, but I I'm personally less interested. Pardon the thing. I'm less interested these days in going on podcasts than just getting some work done. >> Yeah. >> Um, you know, I think I think it's we've gotten it to a certain stage.

Uh, we have to ignore the people who are screaming more and more and more. Um, you know, give me the give me the proof. It's like, well, no, why don't you do some work yourself? Uh, and uh, and just get down to business. And Beatatrice, you know, as a for instance, has shown the way. Jacques Valle gave a great talk about an incident from 50 60 years ago that he's sort of finally wrapped up and publishes a paper uh the Hannesville case.

So, you know, just don't think that we're going to be the last ones working on the matter. And so, uh you know, if you give up if you give up the ghost, you'll you won't get anywhere. So, just I'm still grinding on >> and I take it Jack won't give you that tree bark still. >> I'm going to make him give it to me. >> Yeah.

[laughter] >> Thank you, Gary. Great speaking as always. >> Okay. >> That's all for this episode of That UFO podcast. Thank you so much for listening and watching.

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Don't forget, you can also pick up a copy of my book, Atlas [music] of Unidentified Flying Objects, available now in all good bookstores and through online retailers, including Amazon. [music] Big thank you again to all of you for listening and tuning in. Until next time, keep looking up. You never know what [music] you might see. >> It wasn't a tic tac and not quite a saucer.

More like a hub designed by Chaucer. a little baroque and quite steampunk like Alice was playing bass for the parliament effect. The little hovered right inside of my window and when I shoved out the screen he made it an issue. I don't think he expected me to see his ass, but I'd had some champagne and smoked a