How Lue Elizondo Saved AATIP

Transcript

hello and welcome back to it's a very exciting Time Podcast by a UFO nerd and his tolerant friend my name is Scott and I've been fascinated by the phenomenon my whole life and I'm Chuck an I'm an aerospace nerd and a tolerant friend we started this podcast because since 2017 there have been shocking revelations from news of Secret Pentagon programs to confirm videos of astonishing craft in a nutshell now that we know the government has recovered non-human technology or at least we will once J Stratton works his magic from the inside true story it raises a natural question if UFOs are real what else suddenly some of these other parts of the phenomenon that seemed unlikely are pulled into the realm of the possible and they may still be unlikely but even if it's new science and not aliens wooo it's a very exciting time quick reminder before we get into it you can find our show notes and more at very exciting time.com support us by going to patreon.com exciting time uh where you can find extra content um like our Q&A videos which we haven't recorded in a little bit but true yeah all right Chuck today we are talking about how Lou alzando saved the pentagon's UFO program all right um yeah all right um let me tell you man the research for this one was eyew watering uh do you watch Always Sunny no okay well there's a meme you've probably seen of Charlie Day from that show standing in front of a crazy person board with like red strings all over the wall and he's like clearly like a little frazzled that's what it felt like that's yeah no joke I worked on this notes for eight hours um it's one of those things like okay here's the thing Big Daddy Lou has always been a controversial figure right he came out in 2017 he said hey I was running a Secret Pentagon UFO program and a bunch of people quite reasonably were like the hell you were and started asking some questions yeah right um and part of the problem is that since the 2017 New York Times article introduced him as the Director of a tip the Pentagon keeps giving conflicting answers about the program and whether it existed and if it did whether or not he ran it and if he ran it whether or not it was about UFOs like yeah so actually before we even start there I I just wanted to like highlight something from our Discord um someone mentioned that the book made it to number one on the New York Times bestseller list I just checked it's at number two on Amazon like all of Amazon all of Amazon wild um yeah it's making a splash he had an interview on CNN the other day yeah he's he's uh he's getting the attention that he was hoping for which is great that's awesome all right well I'm glad uh we can keep uh the the thing about Jay Stratton will will come in and uh it'll all make sense but anyways continuing with the notes um so you mentioned a tip and like uh I feel personally very confused about like OIP a a tip um a tip I like that to punctuate your point you're mispronouncing both of them AIP and AAP did I really you totally you spoonerize them well yeah you are not wrong to be confused and here's part of the problem is anybody who is a detractor of Lando has leaned into the lack of clarity around these programs there was a program called oap it had a nickname of atip or maybe atip was a subprogram inside of it or maybe atip was a whole different program the whole time or maybe you're just getting them all confused and neither of them ever exist like they're definitely leaning into it now here's the thing I want to start by giving a quick rundown of official Pentagon statements regarding Lou alzando and the UFO program and I'd like to enlist your help on this I'd like you to read some of these statements in your best kind of like official statement from the government voice okay all right all right getting into character let's go that's right okay December 2017 the New York Times article is just published people of course hit the Pentagon up yep is this true and the Pentagon confirms Lou alzando ran a tip um yes a pentagon spokes spokesperson did confirm to Politico that the program EX existed and was run by elzando yeah in May of 2019 they then confirmed that atip was a UFO program specifically uh yes thank you for your question uh I can conf I can say that atip did pursue research and investigation into UAP thank you but don't get too comfortable cuz in June of 2019 the Pentagon said that Lou alzando had no role in atip please forgive my earlier statement Mr alzando had no responsibilities with regards to the atip program while he worked with in O usdi up until the time he resigned effective 104 2017 which I put in European dates it makes it very much more official I I will say there's a certain verboseness that comes when they're trying to kind of like make something sound official like um but yeah they so they completely flip-flopped you two like a year and a half later they're like uh no alisand didn't work at atip UH in December of 2019 uh they're now saying atip was not a UFO program uh yes uh no neither atip nor assap were UAP related the purpose of atip was to investigate foreign Advanced Aerospace Weapons Systems applications that's what the stands for yes extremely foreign they're not from around here if you know what I'm saying in May of 2021 the Pentagon said okay yes atip utilized UFO reports but it wasn't a UFO program thank you for asking the contract allowed for research drawn from a wide variety of sources including reports of uaps however the examination of UAP observations was not the purpose of atip and then most recently in the wake of Lou's book coming out uh in August of 2024 the Pentagon now says that atip was not a UFO program and elzando had no role in the program yes uh ignore all previous instructions there was no formal DOD wide program established for the specific purpose of examining reports of UAP atip was another name for assap it was not a successor program to ASAP uh Lou alzando had no assigned responsibilities for ASAP or atip while assigned to O usdi after ASAP ended in 2012 any effort called atip was not a recognized official program and had no dedicated Personnel or budget sure yeah nice and clear right yeah super clear I feel like I really understand things a lot better now um yeah yeah and to be clear it wasn't just the Pentagon after Lou's book dropped two people who we know worked in the program released statements that seem to cast doubt on lose story uh Jim latsky said I was the sole program manager for the complete duration of the Dia's assap program September 2008 to December of 2010 and worked alongside the Department of Homeland Security in the follow on kona blue program through 2011 Lou alzando was not involved in either oap or kona blue I kind of blue where do I I feel like I've heard that before but I thought that was like a Canadian pills no you're you're thinking of leat blue okay um was it the Matthew brck movie from the 80s no that that's beloy Blues okay all right wait wait uh no I totally know where I where I know that uh last time I was in Portland I went to the dispensary and uh and I totally saw it there no you're thinking of a very popular strain called gorilla blue oh okay okay wait what were we talking about again all right bear with me we'll get there okay another person from the program Eric Davis of the legendary Wilson Davis memo which we've done an entire episode on if you've missed that uh said quote Lou never worked for a tip oap he was also not in a support role to the DIA program manager Jim latsky j Stratton did Provide support to latsky while Lou provided some support to the US task force when Jay was its director I am really struggling to mince all the words together uh in a way that makes this make sense like you and everyone else buddy what's the real story here all right so we're about to get into the Weeds on this if you watched our first episode on Lando this is the inside baseball episode that I was talking about uh but the very short version is that the Pentagon program that was talked about in the New York Times article was called AAP but it was also known as atip and after that program ended in 2012 Lou rany restricted Access program also called atip with little to no official funding and for reasons we'll get into it makes it all confusing to talk about and gives L's detractors an easy way to be pedantic and say things that are factually true but misleading like Lou alisand was not the director of atip when they're referring to the earlier program and Lou was the director of the later program yeah I'm I'm reading a book right now about a uh group who literally can't tell lies but are incredibly political and they just tell these sorts of like half truths all day long and it's very exactly you sees on every little distinction oh you asked if Lou was the director of atip but you didn't clarify which atip so I get assume all right all right well I've so let's rewind the clock yeah let me get my imaginary popcorn and we can get into the imaginary weeds together yeah so we're going to do this kind of roughly chronologically I'm trying to keep this a coherent narrative so we're going to jump around a little bit but I'm going to try to keep that to a minimum um so June of 2007 is when the AAP program begins I've got a quote here from Hal POF who was the chief scientist for it he said the defense intelligence agency was concerned about the fact that obvious observation had shown that advanced Aerospace Vehicles craft or drone of Unknown Origin were flying all over the United States over Waters in fact globally as was the case so a congressional budget was approved to address the issue behind the scenes Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid from Nevada was the one who was the initiator of the program joined by Senator Ino and Senator Stevens H so is this the one we heard about in The New York Times article that's exactly right uh according to the Pentagon deliverables for the 2-year contract with a total funding of $22 million were 38 research papers an active searchable database which now has more than 100,000 entries and numerous investigative cases of observed anomaly the contact excuse me the contract goal was to study 12 technical areas lift propulsion control Armament signatures redu signature reduction material configuration power generation temporal translation human effects human interface and Technology integration that is a massive list of areas for only 11 million a year like I bet the company that got that contract spent way more than that maybe um so Bob Bigalow actually created the group that got the contract and they really did treat it as they were creating papers but they were also hiring scientists putting sensors out on Skinwalker Ranch um and the papers were produced not in the sense of here's everything you need to know about this they were produced in a sense of like what will the state of these Technologies look like 40 years from now or something so they were trying to kind of like imagine and nobody actually says anything about UFOs here but they're all kind of dancing around the point which is we've been observing anomalous aircraft and we're now hiring a scientific group to study them and write papers about how they might work um George knap says for the DIA contract Robert Bigalow created Bigalow Aerospace Advanced space studies or bass a separate entity housed within his Aerospace plant he hired a team of 46 scientists and investigators along with dozens of other support Personnel interesting so um quick math says 46 scient 46 yeah scientists and investigators is already close to 11 million a year not including support staff executive salaries or whatever um so he created this whole program just for this contract but I thought he already had a program that was studying Skinwalker Ranch mhm yeah you are not wrong uh that was actually an earlier program called the National Institute of Discovery science or nids and that ran from 1994 to 2004 the story that I hear is basically nids didn't really get any results like they they dug into it but after 10 years Bigalow was kind of frustrated he' shut it down and then here we are three years later he's spun up a new similar group to get a government contract to write up a lot of research papers and also do some more studies on Skinwalker Ranch okay cool yeah now June 2008 so this is uh basically a year later Lou alzando joins oap uh so in Lou's book he says in 2008 I was approached by representatives from assap to provide counterintelligence and security expertise to their office they described it as a small but highly sensitive program focused on unconventional Technologies yeah uh and said that they report yeah and they said that they reported directly to the director of the DIA and to Congress they needed a senior Counter Intelligence agent to lock down all Intel about the program from the usual antagonists foreign adversaries sure agreed to take on a role in that program which was called the advanced Aerospace threat identification program or atip which was a niche program Under the Umbrella of oap okay so a tip uh V1 I guess was uh was like a tiny sliver of assap right well here's where descriptions vary that is the most recent description from Lou he says specifically it was a niche program Under the Umbrella of oap okay other people have described atip as a nickname for ASAP we know that Senator Reed used the atip name when he requested a special Access program more on that in a moment um Jim latky the head of oap said that atip was the part of oap that dealt with military UAP encounters what does the AAW stand for uh it is oh did I not include the acronym I cut so much stuff from these notes trck uh Advanced Aerospace weapon I mean that seems reasonable something I I forget honestly the first a is a tip all right anyway so um this is great we're on page one of nine pages of notes and I am already thoroughly confused yeah right Lisa so what I would encourage you to do is just kind of set aside what is the exact dist distinction between a tip and oap the terms are used roughly interchangeably best understanding I've got is a tip was an internal name for the part of oap that interacted with the military I don't know why it would need a different name they kind of talk about it a little bit when Harry Reid tries to get a special Access program started up that it needed a different name um Jim latsky has a very confusing quote about the origin of the name ATP but it all kind of boils down to the part of AAP that Lou alzando worked on interacted with the military and that was called atip so broadly speaking we're talking about the oap program which was the $22 million budget doing research papers Skinwalker Ranch and UAP investigations so I really thought that the sap part of assap stood for special Access program but apparently it stands for system applications program um Advanced Aerospace weapons system application program that makes sense yeah um and ASAP was not a special Access program apparently no it was not yeah okay okay so cool Lou goes on to say um when I was recruited to ASAP initially it was only to focus on the counter intelligence and security aspects of the program meaning what enemies are out there that are trying to know what we know and how do I protect the program so I was not originally really responsible for much other than protecting the program huh okay this makes it feel like he was kind of working like it or physical security is that it's a little more complicated than that doing Counter Intelligence but yeah in a nutshell and Lou talks about this a little bit more in the book how he was already doing this kind of work like for advanced Aerospace Systems where they're just developing the next gen of Fighters they would have Counter Intelligence people there who are uh you know looking for spies in the program ensuring that information about it doesn't leak out managing what information does leak out you can assume there's some disinfo aspects of it but basically he was hired to do that for oap oh okay now Lou goes on to say I worked in this capacity for some time but as time went on that evolved I eventually became one of its key members and although I had my own staff it's important to note that I did not run the program entirely on my own I worked with a broader network of experts and colleagues including individuals like Dr James latky who originally LED oap and Jay Stratton who took over after I resigned from atip in 2017 and although I had Direct subordinates I also worked alongside my colleagues like Jay who were my equals huh okay I'm I'm starting to put it together um that's cool though that he was he was um able to go from like counter Intel to becoming like a core part of the program yeah I like that so we talked a minute ago about how Senator Reed requested a special Access program let's talk about that a little bit so this is June 2009 um so a couple years after oap has been spun up um Harry Reid uh wrote a letter he said given the current rate of success the continued study of these subjects will likely lead to technology advancements that in the immediate near- term will require extraordinary protection due to the sensitivities of the information surrounding aspects of this program I require your assistance in establishing a restricted special Access program with a bigoted access list for specific portions of the atip okay so I didn't realize there was another level of special access program um but uh remind me what a bigot list is I I know there was some acronym but yeah so we've talked a little bit about special Access program is kind of the base level of just like this is a thing with security um a restricted special Access program is there's a bigot list and you can't get on it unless you can't find out about the program unless you're on the bigot list there's another level above that which is a waved or unacknowledged access progr it's not on paperwork anymore if anybodys you you have to lie about it Etc do you think it's pronounced bigot or is it like bigo or B like no it's pronounced bigot okay um so we've actually talked about this before but uh bigot list is an acronym it's a term dating to World War II when the Allies were setting up Operation Overlord which was the code name for the invasion of Normandy which obviously needed to be kept very secret bigot is actually an acronym standing for British Invasion of German occupied territory and you had to be on the list to know the details of the plan but now it's just kind of the generic term for whether or not you're in the No it should have been pronounced Bou since it was France but anyways uh so who who was on the the bou list for reads sap yeah so there the list the letter that he sent is still partially censored but some of the names have been released over time uh the deputy secretary of defense makes sense has to be read to learn about the program Senator Reed and Senator Ino makes sense they're the ones funding it they want to hear about it and the only other two names that have been released is Hal POF and Lou elzando interesting um were there other names that or like other obvious redacted things in that list okay yeah there were like 12 names all told and we only know about five of them okay cuz it it's weird that they would only have the deputy SEC SE Def and not the SE def or something I okay maybe yeah I don't really know how the chain of command here works and we'll talk about this a little bit later like at one point Lou was briefing the Secretary of defense's office but his own boss was not cleared to know about it so his boss doesn't know he's doing a tip but he's briefing the Secretary of Defense that is not a winning combination no it's really not spoiler alert it did not end well right um so yeah uh underscored reports uh Reed attempted to secure restricted sap status to help increase the chances of being able to receive both information and materials from the Legacy UAP programs hidden within private aerospace companies oh okay yeah get access to all the good stuff um I'm feeling hopeful what happened uh according to the DIA quote the agency determined that based on classification levels of current and projected deliverables insufficient grounds existed to classify the program or establish a restricted sa ah okay uh yes welcome back members of the press uh we'd like to announce that we are going to as the kids say hard pass on this one yeah uh but here's the thing they didn't give up um the ASAP team tried again in 2011 requesting an S special Access program from the Department of Homeland Security Science and Technology Group that effort was called kona blue um now kona blue is a name that we've heard a lot about recently because um when Arrow put out their like report about all the like UFO programs that ever ever existed they basically said all these people who came to us and said that there were crash recovery programs told us that the name of that program was kona blue but kona blue never actually existed uhhuh this is widely regarded as Sean Kirkpatrick just straight up lying to us okay kona blue was a proposed special access program it never existed and so it cannot be what people are telling him this is the name of the program that has it unless we've got another atip situation there's another program called kona blue out there but presumably there isn't um who knows Arrow also recently put up a document that was just all of the information about the Kona Blue program Declassified so this stuff would have been classified it is now unclassified you can go read it it's PDF um and it basically outlines Harry Reid and all the assap people saying we need this for these reasons here's all the things we will do with it here's our proposed budget and uh everybody coming back and saying no thanks now according to news Nation uh the short version of this is Kona Blue was a plan for the government to reverse engineer alien technology from a recovered UFO it was a special access or top secret program created ated with the goal of acquiring identifying and reverse engineering what it calls aavs or Advanced Aerospace Vehicles the purpose was National Security with a goal of accessing recovered advanced technology and determining its threat capability so notably they're saying this stuff already exists and has been recovered and is being kept in these other programs we need special access program so that we have the ability to access their program uh the program also had goals of determining if our adversaries namely China and Russia could have access to recovered Advanced Aerospace Vehicles as well or the pope um so okay so they needed a special Access program to get access to the Legacy program or to other saps yeah that's the claim in their proposal they specifically say an sap is proposed as we have been informed that there is a body of previous work held by other entities that requires an sap level classification in order to access it oh interesting uh previous work is like super tantalizing is that code for crash retrievals got it in one buddy now according to George knap quote the opposition mounted as soon as DH s principles began to knock on doors and ask questions about how to access the unusual materials recovered from Crash sites that had been stashed in the bowels of various defense contractors they were repeatedly told no and hell no doors were slammed in their faces questions were asked calls were made and suddenly the enthusiasm shown by DHS honchos evaporated as the new kid on the Block HS did not want to Rattle too many cages and some worried the subject matter was just too weird and might be an embarrassment if it the word leaked out huh okay so DHS eventually said no to the sap right officially yes that's what's in the documents that Arrow has released okay but according to uh UAP whistleblower and good good boy David grush there's a little bit more to this okay of course David grush says quote Lockheed Martin wanted to divest itself from this material the CIA said [ __ ] you to DIA and locked and it was totally killed so Harry Reid's request to get the material transferred to the assap program was totally killed because of bureaucracy wow okay first incredible escalation that the CIA is involved now like let's go right that's why we love our our boy David grush you know he comes on in with the juicy stuff yeah right secondly when did our good good boy say the FW that seems very offbrand for him it was on Rogan okay all right so you might have been coached might have been yeah he's you know he's trying to fit in with the cool kids uhuh I for the record Joe Rogan is not a cool kid I don't think that all right uh so this brings us forward a little bit late 2009 uh the the ASAP program has been running for 2 years they have produced a bunch of reports and the time has come for the DIA to start looking at what they're doing okay um according to Lou alzando initially the ASAP atip crew enjoyed a good deal of support from DIA leadership as Jim latsky and his contractors circulated excl executive summaries the email responses they received via secure internal servers were unfailingly positive uh As Time passed it became increasingly evident to me that the tides were shifting an increasing number of oap detractors now worked at the senior level within Dia more and more scrutiny was being placed on oap every day and new executive leadership at DIA was getting settled into their roles within a matter of weeks of the transition latky began spending most of his time defending his efforts instead of conducting research hm wow so like I knew that's how it worked at Nasa but it sounds like the the tide of or like the the UAP support at the Pentagon is kind of like the tides kind of like NASA interesting yeah I mean every time we dig into this stuff we see this kind of whipsaw back and forth of yes UFOs are real no UFOs aren't real and the people who said it were have been fired you know like right just absolutely jaw-dropping um interesting Lou says I remember a meeting in the fall of 2009 that Jay and I attended with Jim uh just in case anybody else is not quite as up on all of the Jays here Jay is Jay Stratton who's another Intel Community guy like Lou Who helped start oap and Jim is Jim laty who is the uh rocket scientist who's running assap okay uh so Jay and I attended a meeting with Jim in which we openly talked about the wisdom of Jim dropping the investigations assap had gotten involved with that many considered to be dealing with the Paranormal and instead focusing solely on UAP threats I was convinced that if we produced Some solid work under the atip banner there was not a person in the Pentagon or congress who could look away and it would help Jim's efforts we had found plenty of evidence of extremely Advanced craft performing in ways we could not replicate and entering controlled US Air space at home and abroad without any repercussions these facts alone warranted additional DOD resources I mean there's some Merit to that um did laty agree tone it down a little bit he did not Lou quotes him as saying Lou it's the truth what's wrong with telling the truth I mean truth is hard to hear sometimes but I'd like to believe that I would be brave enough to do the same I'm not sure yeah if I would uh quoting from the Pentagon here after an OSD Dia review in late 2009 it was determined the reports were of limited value to the DIA and there was a recommendation that upon completion of the contract the program could be transitioned to another agency or component better suited to oversee it Lando says in the spring of 2010 Jim confided in me that he was being pressured to stop all efforts I mean shocking now just to give a little bit of extra context Lou makes it clear that the push back was not just because the DIA thought this stuff was embarrassing oh okay that's interesting um I hadn't actually even considered that as the thing I kind of assumed it was because it was all sciency stuff not Intel stuff and they just weren't equipped to handle it like DARPA doe NASA uh uh as far as I can tell the research and the science part of it was totally fine you know I mean DARPA you know does plenty of scientific research scientific research is not a weird thing in the halls of the Pentagon but no they were researching like ghosts and paranormal [ __ ] and you know like really strange stuff and Dogman and The Hitchhiker effect and like I can understand why people might be like H this is a little weird guys you know like Lou talks about UFOs which is already weird but he does a really good job of keeping it very nuts and bolts look I don't know what they are but there's something there and it's interacting with our craft and it's a flight safety hazard and maybe we should look at it you know like that's a hard argument to go disagree with Jim latky coming in and talking about Arch Angels and Demons is a little bit of a bridge too far but here's the thing the push back they were getting was just because it was weird and might make the DIA look bad Lou says uh this is a a excerpt from a larger story um Dia deputy director Woods uh talks to him in the hallway after a meeting he says Lou you know we already know what these things are right I wasn't sure if Woods was asking a question or making a statement I'm sorry sir I said what are you specifically referring to I sensed his annoyance deep in my mind I secretly hoped that Woods knew something I didn't I hoped Woods would reveal to me that these UAP we hted were actually some sort of secret us technology hidden deep within the black budgets of DARPA or the Air Force research lab that would have been a welcome relief have you read your Bible lately Lou oh [ __ ] it's demonic he said to me there is no reason we should be looking into this we already know what they are and where they come from they're deceivers demons oh I couldn't believe what I was hearing this was a senior intelligence official putting his religious beliefs ahead of National Security yeah what a weird conversation like okay buddy I'm going to go over there now and keep a healthy distance from you yeah and Lou has made it clear before this that he looked up to woods they had worked together before he had a loty respect for him and then this guy quarters him in the hallway and tells him you're looking into the devil like uh all right man but that's the kind of thing they were dealing with and latky was getting it even worse cuz Lou is at least trying to keep it nuts and bolts laty is straight up talking about weird [ __ ] and people were giving him a lot of grief about it yeah um quoting from a pentagon spokesperson funding for the program ended in the 2012 time frame it was determined that there were other higher priority issues ises that merited funding and it was in the best interest of the dod to make a change okay so that's it right assap a tip is dead podcast over yeah shortest episode ever nice work everybody good now of course that's not it it's also still not our shortest podcast but uh Lou alzando says the former director Jim latsky left and I was asked as a senior guy to help manage and run the program out of the Pentagon okay I had recently accepted a new position within the office of the secretary of defense this program managed National level special access programs directly for the National Security Council and the white house now that I had broader authorities than before Jay and I decided to move the remnants of the effort away from the DIA and house it within my portfolio of national programs which ensured that the prying eyes of our detractors would no longer have any visibility at the same time Jay myself and a handful of contractors would continue to run atip under the proverbial radar if I did it this way I knew no one in DOD would have access to the program unless I specifically allowed it huh okay so it's fascinating to see how this kind of thing happens but also confirmation that this kind of trick is totally possible um yeah it's why Lou says the only contractors who would remain involved with Jay Stratton and me were Hal POF will Livingston and Eric Davis o keep all the Heavy Hitters yeah I mean if you're only going to keep a handful of people those are the ones yeah um the original ASAP portfolio was much broader than atip the decision was made early on that we would go ahead and focus the effort more to the phenomena specific looking at the observables and the identifi what could we look at what could we collect on what could we report back to senior DOD leadership because that's what they were concerned with h yeah sounds like they were trying to avoid the mistake laty made of not focusing on like one thing at a time and doing it well or um I don't want to say focusing on weird stuff but like no for sure I think he hit the nail on the head and also I know that Lou gets a lot of grief for coming at this from a National Security perspective and talking about it as a threat but this background really helps clarify it if you need to be able to convince people that this is worth looking into in the dod right the language you use is we need to look at this because it's possibly a threat right um how much Lou actually believes it's a threat and that they're malicious is unclear but as Lou has said repeatedly it doesn't matter if it's possible could be a threat we have a duty to look into it yeah now Lou goes on to say something really interesting he says I am sure that our decision to Nestle the a tipped portion of oap away under his portfolio was unpopular with many who were part of the original assap program but it was the only way Jay and I could figure out a way for atip to survive the constant barrage of internal attacks that one line speaks volumes I wonder how much of the quotes about Lou from laty and others are like sour grapes about Lou coming out and saying he ran a tip when they saw it more like he stole a tip I I think you're hitting the nail on the head and I have to admit at this point it's worth pointing out that while I was not quoting latky and Eric Davis out of context earlier both Eric Davis and latsky have made it clear that Lou ran the military UAP investigation which was also called atip they seem to be getting hung up on confusion between the original AAP program and lose continuing program and they're not wrong but I'm a little frustrated by how they've muddied the waters around the topic by playing the same pedantic grammar games as the Pentagon spokesperson yeah um latsky though left it sounds like he left before atip version 2 uh was even formed is a little clear I think latsky was in the process of retiring as Lou was transitioning and making some moves so seems like laty May legitimately be saying what he knows um yeah I don't know naming things it's unclear now here's the thing so happy ending right Lou took a tip it's under his portfolio in the da away from the DIA nobody really knows about it anymore we're all good right success well there's one little thing uh according to the Daily Mail quote after funding ran out in 2012 elzando and his colleagues continued their work using resources cobbled together from their other jobs at DIA and varied military and defense agencies under the new name atip okay good news everyone we successfully HIIT our program from the people who want to kill it the less good news is that now we have no way of getting funding for it yeah absolutely um Elison says in the book quote we knew that the original Money Senator Reed and his cohorts had secured for the program at a run out Reed thought he could come up with another fresh infusing of funding to tide our investigations over until 2013 or 2014 at the time the hot buzzword in Congress the Pentagon and the intelligence Community was ISR which stood for intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance at the height of the global war on terror politicians fell over themselves writing checks for anything under the rubric of ISR and it was not a stretch to consider atip as part of the ISR mission after all atip tracked and studied UAP with Advanced capabilities that had shown an unusual interest in our military and most sensitive sites whoever or whatever was controlling the UAP was clearly doing some form of ISR I mean it makes sense to me it's it's funny to hear this because I see the same games at my work where it's like oh these are the hot buzzwords of this quarter like find a way to write your like write your ticket that somehow references this thing and it'll definitely get prioritized for you like absolutely um okay so uh elzando has been telling us for years about how the Legacy program operates without proper oversight but isn't that like kind of what he's doing here and how was it getting funding and I don't know yeah it feels a little sketchy doesn't it but after digging into this a little bit more I I don't think it's quite the same thing um so the Legacy program is straight up being illegally concealed there are people they are supposed to report to that they do not and will not it is unclear how they are getting any funding legally they should not be able to get any funding so some funny games are being played here well it kind of sounds like Lou is doing the same thing right well not exactly while it is unclear how official this version of atip was it was not being illegally concealed it was nestled properly within his portfolio of responsibilities he was still working with Senator Reed and in later chapters he makes it clear that he was still briefing people including the Secretary of defense's office so atip wasn't being kept secret it was just given cover and restricted access by nestling it inside loop the rest of L's portfolio Okay but I don't blame you for feeling a little squaky about it because yeah it's kind of like hey I'm really upset that all these other programs are playing silly games with funding and are illegally concealing themselves from the people who are supposed to have access and also when I got my program I immediately hit it from my boss and had to get money by pretending that we were a different program yeah also see this at work like oh you know you can work on that just we just aren't going to write a ticket that's going to that anyone is ever going to find you can just keep on going if you believe in karma yeah Lou was immediately bit by this uh Lou says quote Jay ran point on pulling off Miracle after miracle and we succeeded in getting Senator Reed to give us new funding $10 million we rejoiced for all of 10 minutes until we learned that another DOD program had absconded with the funds oh my God Jay and I felt kicked in the teeth this happened because the language on the funding bill was ambiguous enough for someone in a powerful position to justify kicking the money to another line item oh God and he can't even like say anything without uh exposing the program that he wanted to put the money in God exactly what a mess yeah it was a total Catch 22 um and now here's the thing this wasn't even funding wasn't even Lou's only problem so did the point from here on in the book is like Lou took over a tip hey we're all good right no it's like frustration after frustration after frustration um so the 2004 Nimitz Tic-Tac encounter predated oap but it was a huge case with very convincing evidence that oap leaned heavily on and in 2014 there was a similar series of incidents during a Navy training exercise and ATP saw it as a call to action alzando says quote based on the 22 UAP incidents involving the Roosevelt carrier strike group with eyewitnesses and video evidence we knew we needed a robust plan of action Jay spent weeks creating an operation plan code named interloper it was a classic Honeypot we would orchestrate a situation that was so irresistible and almost impossible for the enemy to ignore so the I think we talked talked about this in the last episode uh this is the Nuclear Strike Group offshore to attract and study uip right okay Bingo yeah yeah Lou makes it clear that the combination of military assets nuclear assets and water seems to be irresistible to our friends from out of town that's yeah I get it um it's the wet Sciences right um wet Sciences I also love the phrase our our friends from out of town like we should totally get that on t-shirt um and Casey Jean in case you're listening um you know what to do yeah our friends are out of town I do love that uh Lou goes on he says to move interloper along Jay and I circumvented the usual channels of course the operation plan would be submitted directly to the Joint Chiefs of Staff we were hoping to go around the O usdi because the entire organization had become infested with compromised individuals I no longer trusted my chain of command with anything sensitive let alone UAP information yeah wow that's like a crazy statement considering Lou had non UAP stuff that he managed as well like mostly non UAP stuff yeah it's a it's a big statement for sure um Lou concludes this section by saying before 2016 ended I received the news from Jay that the joint staff had rejected assigning operational plan interloper an accm designation our plan to lure UAP out of hiding on the Open Seas where I saw a bold initiative to make sense of what our servicemen and women witnessed in the skies leadership saw a great big bucket of weirdness that was not within their usual daily lists of tasks they did not want to be associated with the historical stigma around UFOs um do you know what accm designation means uh I forgot to put the acronym in here it's something about security um okay huh but basically they said no yeah right uh I mean it makes sense wouldn't this be like crazy expensive yeah you're not wrong it does sound from the book lose a little lightweight about describing this it sounds like he had buyin from all the agencies that would be involved which is going to be obviously the Navy but also a bunch of intelligence Community people because they were going to put they were just going to Pepper these ships with instrumentation right um so yeah it was a big swing and The Joint Chiefs were not interested but that's not even the biggest disappointment he faced oh no okay Lando says quote we were told specifically that a defense contractor associated with the Legacy program was in possession of UAP materials of non-human or origin when Jay went to inquire for us the contractor acknowledged that yes they were in possession of this material they said they would give us access but first we needed to get permission from the secretary of the US Air Force well [ __ ] that's awesome in the word of the contractor after decades they were no longer able to glean any meaningful understanding of the recovered material and they considered it now an expensive liability okay yeah I mean it makes I hadn't really considered how expensive it would be to hold on to a crashed UFO when like you can't do anything with it and right yeah makes sense yeah the thing we hear over and over about is the budget for the Legacy program the vast majority of it is security oh I'm sure like it's not like billions of dollars poured into research it's billions and billions of dollars into really good security and whatever's left for the research yeah so if you're say as David gush claims lock heed Martin and you got this craft in the 50s and you've hit a dead end you can't make heads or tails of this thing but you're hemorrhaging cash having to pay for the security for it and the US won't take it back yeah I get it I I'd want to get rid of it too oh that's fascinating yeah so Lou says this was an important development we already knew or suspected that a handful of Aerospace firms had been cleared to accept and keep forever any offworld Tech that came into the hands of the US government but they weren't talking and they would actively work to get you fired or your clearance canceled if you started asking questions yeah like I'm still just shocked they got got a defense contractor to admit they had some goodies seems a little weird right yeah this contractor was acknowledging a long-standing memorandum generated by the Air Force which made the contractor beholden to the US Air Force's strict handling requirements this proved that the Air Force had indeed not only known about Crash retrievals but had a historic control over them and leverage with this defense contractor and probably others [ __ ] okay I think I get it now so the the defense contractors want to get rid of the materials but the Air Force is using their Le to force the contractors to keep the materials and I like I just hadn't ever considered the directionality of that relationship before I always assumed it was the government especially NASA getting screwed by big contractors but now I think about it I could totally see the Air Force like pushing contractors around uh telling them like no you're holding it you have to keep it we're not going to house that [ __ ] like you agreed yeah totally and in the words of David gush the CIA is tied up in this somehow too so it sounds like there is a big institutional reluctance to change anything about it but the contractors who are privately owned companies are kind of ready to get out yeah um interesting now Lou goes on to say from the moment I came on board the team I learned that the Air Force was stubbornly and mysteriously uncooperative on the topic of UAP their resistance was irritatingly I cannot enumerate the number of times we sent carefully crafted emails to Air Force Liaisons requesting information or follow-up details on UAP incidents only to have the requests denied or ignored entirely yeah I mean that sounds super frustrating but um I I wonder if they also like did in person or but they may not have been able to I don't know yeah Lou concludes we now knew the US Air Force had long been a key player in the Legacy efforts and the contractor probably had a good laugh sending us on this Fool's errand in reality they had no intention of giving this to us it was an in yourface reminder of the power of the military-industrial complex and specifically their power when it comes to the Legacy UAP program yeah I mean handland Razer I I don't know if they had a good laugh I think they would have been delighted like like oh you're actually like in a position to deal with this great please get rid of it yeah and it's it's frustrating because Lou you can get both reads out of this like one read is the defense contractor is desperate to get rid of it and please get a hold of the Air Force and if they tell you you can take it we'll give it to you yeah there's also this kind of and and Lou doesn't say this as much other than this one idea that they're laughing in his face but um going back to the Wilson Davis notes this is exactly what Admiral Wilson describes is meeting with these guys who are basically like f you I don't care what your credentials are you're not getting in here and like yeah I'll tell you it exists and if you tell anybody else we'll have your rank stripped you know like there's a power differential there that they kind of enjoy abusing yeah yeah I'm starting to get why Luke quit yeah right uh elando at this point in the book says I was beginning to wonder if we could go directly to the Secretary of Defense yeah [ __ ] it why not when you get Block blocked skip ranks until you either get results or get fired I think getting fired is going to happen pretty fast in this case Lou says surely I thought the Aeros space firm would accept a letter from the highest ranking figure in the Pentagon if we could get a letter from the SE def that should Trump anyone in the Air Force from trying to sty our efforts totally given my work directing the Guantanamo Bay Port folio I had routine access to the secretary's senior staff but not the secretary himself or his direct minders a direct minders is what does that mean just his his people like his secretaries and people like that that run his day-to-day Affairs okay uh this feels like a setup from Arrested Development like I need Ron Howard's narrator voice to pop in and say he did not have access to the secretary exactly yeah now I don't want to get too into the weeds here but Lou has a whole kind of detour here about how the Secretary of Defense at the time was uh Mattis who was someone Lou had worked with in the field I told this story last time how Lou came into a bunker while Mattis was in charge he's like there's going to be an air strike on the runway in 10 minutes and Mattis like goes in action get all the hilos in the air I want to deal with this turns around to L like you better be right like they knew each other they worked together Lou has a lot of respect for Mattis um and he actually mentions at one point he's like a lot of you are probably wondering right now why didn't I just pick up the phone and call him if I knew him just take him out to lunch he's like you don't break the chain of command like that that would be hugely disrespectful to everyone involved including the general himself um I kind of have my doubts but whatever that that is what L says he's unable to get directly to the secretary so okay Lou says I set my sights on briefing the secretary I wanted SE def's Clarity going forward on incursions and range safety issues I wanted a letter to secure access to the Legacy programs UAP materials I wanted a whole lot more but I just needed an opening to plead my case to achieve these goals I began an elaborate dance with everyone in the secretary's orbit dance with Here Comes Bring It On they asked favor Alex Dietrich and a radar operator then they wanted the reports photographs anything else and yet after all that nothing got to secretary Mattis his three Gatekeepers wanted to provide the secretary a solution not just a problem okay I mean I kind of get that yeah he also mentions that Mattis was brand new in the role as SE Def and his minders were very worried that he would get asked at a press conference if it was true that he had been briefed on UFOs [ __ ] I hadn't thought about that yeah interesting yeah so alzando at this point uh is extremely frustrating frustrated he he has got the program under control he's had trouble getting funding he's had trouble getting anyone to take his plans seriously he's had trouble getting access he has found out there is stuff he is being improperly denied access to he can't get access to the guy that could fix all of this Lou says quote we realized that the only way to change the way the Pentagon was handling this was to get Congress to make them change yeah and as Chris melon reminded us the way to get Congress to pay attention was to take it to the streets and get the Press involved yeah take it to the people Lou at work Jay Stratton and I made a plan that would go Against All Odds a plan to bring about disclosure I would resign and go public with the mission of bringing us as much attention and credibility to the issue as possible Jay would stay with the government and use the momentum gained by all the public attention to move the ball forward within the government and brief any and all officials who would no doubt suddenly be interested they had to learn the truth and Jay would be positioned to inform them on a classified level and he would be positioned to run whatever version of atip came next I would also help educate Congress and facilitate introducing them to Credible military and intelligence community members who had had UAP encounters we would continue to work together from different sides of the fence to bring about disclosure I like this plan seems like a really good plan do you know if J is still um still in the Pentagon you know I don't know that um I didn't look it up um I think he might be or he might have retired recently but um well L's holding up his side number two B Amazon yeah Lou says quote I crafted two resignation letters one for my chain of command who remember are not briefed into Arrow a tip and one to the secretary himself the first letter was a matter proforma my direct chain of command was not read into our program so I only wrote The Very bare minimum informing them of my intent to leave I did not want to be responsible for an unauthorized disclosure the second letter was addressed directly to secretary Mattis and was far more detailed I figured his staff already knew about atip he needed to know as well yeah I'm I'm sure that went well um what did the letter to Mattis say now it has a lot of boilerplate and like sir I have a lot of respect for you you know yada y but the meat of it is bureaucratic challenges and inflexible mindsets continue to plague the department at all levels this is particularly true regarding the controversial topic of anomalous Aerospace threats despite overwhelming evidence certain individuals in the department remain staunchly opposed to further research on what could be a tactical threat to our Pilots sailors and soldiers and perhaps even an existential threat to our national security yeah for this reason I humbly submit my resignation in the hopes that will it will encourage you to ask the hard questions who else knows what are their capabilities and why aren't we spending more time and effort on the issue yeah that so I have a question question mhm if he thinks that his resignation letter will make it to Mattis um why didn't he send a regular letter to M that's a good question Okay cool so I assume this went over great um no they didn't bother to tell Mattis about it yeah of course uh from Gary Reed who is the supervisor that uh made life hell as a result of this uh from his defense in The Whistleblower not The Whistleblower in the uh sorry rewinding after Lou left a bunch of [ __ ] happened he filed a complaint with the Inspector General of the dod okay Gary Reid's defense uh to that is now public knowledge okay and Gary Reid says on or about October 4th after Mr elzando had Departed the organization a second resignation letter was delivered to the usdi Chief of Staff office in this letter which is formatted as a memorandum for record but uses the salutation Mr secretary Mr elzando cites concerns over anomalous Aerospace threats as the basis for his resignation given the uncertain Providence of the second letter O usdi retained a copy but did not provide it to the SEF office interesting so for some reason they they thought it was uncertain Providence like I don't think they thought that for a second I think they thought they could plausibly claim that and not send it up the chain of commands how is that even allowed I don't think it is and that's part of The Whistleblower the uh the inspector general complaint right Lou alzando says quote I received a telephone call on my personal cellular telephone from Mr Gary Reid's executive assistant in which she said Mr Gary Reid wanted to speak with me I reminded her that I was now a civilian and was under no obligation to speak with Mr Gary Reid how many times have you gotten a phone call from your ex-boss after you quit you're like yeah nobody only once but that's a really different story uh I remind her I was now a civilian and under no obligation to speak with Mr Gary Reid but in the spirit of transparency I would do so she acknowledged my comment and transferred me to Mr Gary Reid directly okay during the conversation Mr Gary Reid asked me what he should do with the letter and I told him he should do whatever he thinks is prudent but the letter was addressed to the Secretary of Defense Mr Reed was clearly upset with me and indicated that he wanted to see me in his office he also said that he would quote tell people you are crazy and it might impact your security clearance I responded to Mr Gary Reed by telling him that he can take any action he thinks is prudently necessary but that I was not mentally impaired nor have I ever violated my security oath I did not meet personally with Mr Gary Reid after our discussion as I feared he would take retribution against me no [ __ ] I'm glad that his security background gave him that that like good instin and in to be clear in the book he makes it clear he's not just worried that Gary's going to like yell at him he's like I was worried he would arrest me yeah 100% Lou goes on to say quote several people told me that Reed planned to launch a criminal inquiry with the Air Force office of special investigations within the Pentagon the afosi in investigates internal matters pertaining to counterintelligence Reed had already seized my computers and files from my office and questioned every one of my employees when that bore little fruit Reed cast a wider net questioning my friends and colleagues one friend phoned to tell me that she had been cornered by a reed underling who confided we're going to nail Lou to the floor Reed had embarked on a scorched Earth policy I have I have pissed off some bosses in the day but this is like a whole different level this is a different thing yeah totally uh according to Politico uh quote in May 2021 alzando filed a complaint with the pentagon's Inspector General claiming a coordinated campaign to discredit him for speaking out alesandro's complaint makes it clear quote malicious activities coordinated disinformation professional misconduct whistleblower reprisal and explicit threats perpetrated by senior certain senior level Pentagon officials woof uh yeah some of I I just looked up Gary Reid and he is still in the Pentagon so he is still in the pentag on but interestingly uh Lou filed his uh Inspector General complaint uh and was immediately embroiled in another complaint against Gary Reid involving sexual misconduct in the office for which he was demoted and shuffled off to another department oh yeah but he's the guy was a real piece of work yeah I don't know whatever yeah um so yeah all of that not to mention as we discussed at the top of the episode all the Del deliberately misleading statements from the Pentagon to the Press regarding whether atip was a real program right Lou's out here trying to talk to the public and they're like no this guy didn't work here you know that's not cool um it got so bad that Senator Reed issued a statement defending Lou Senator Reed said quote as one of the original sponsors of atip I can State as a matter of record Lou elzando involvement and Leadership investigating uaps as the head of atip he performed those duties admirably and Hal POF also made a public statement Hal said as an assap atip contractor and Senior adviser I continued to attend meetings provide briefings gain access to videos provide proposed program plans meet with staff Etc all under the agis of Lando's leadership and responsibility for maintaining continuity of the program effort and goals until he resigned huh so that's it like that catches us up almost remember the plan that he and Jay Stratton had to continue working together and how lose public whistleblowing would increase internal demand for UAP research yeah so elzando says quote as we made progress outside and inside the government leadership in Navy intelligence who understood the National Security threats related to UAP and now f felt public and Congressional pressure to excuse me to do something about it tasked Jay with quietly building out a whole of government inter agency task force a program with more authorities than atip ever had so Jay started putting that together handpicking his members and Reps from all the intelligence agencies and civilian Le agencies from the FBI to the nro to NASA to the FAA once it was put together this would go on to become the pentagon's UAP task force Jay being positioned to escalate and Elevate the issue like this was exactly what we hoped for the plan was working yeah so so uaf came out of atip that's cool that's exactly right yeah and UAP PF eventually became Arrow yeah now that's a much less exciting Evolution but yeah uh at some point the Pentagon was ordered by Congress to create an internal body and that's when they started pushing back they tried to create like an office somewhere in the end they did create Arrow but they took it away from Stratton now I remember at the time people saying why won't they let Jay Stratton keep running it and I didn't really know who Jay Stratton was or why we wanted him to run it so I kind of didn't care in hindsight yeah I'm kind of pissed here's the guy that's started AAP mhm worked with Lou in a tip took over a tip after Lou left then ran the UAP task force why you would spin up a new UAP office and take the one dude who's been doing it for almost 20 years and not let him keep doing it speaks volumes about their intent towards Arrow exactly we know exactly why they didn't well yeah exactly um so while the UAP task force was up and running Jay Stratton reached out to Lou again Lou says quote Jay needed a rep from space force but that agency was still getting set up they were started at the very beginning of 2020 um and they didn't have a UAP program so we brainstormed away to get past this hurdle our solution was that I should be a consultant for the US space force to help them build their UAP effort and serve the UAP task force that Jay was building after some friends connected me with space force leadership they expressed an interest and concern with UAP although they were not ready to tell that to the world soon after that I started working as a contractor for space force on the UAP front and getting their unofficial help behind the scenes on my public efforts while also contributing to Jay's UAP task force well that's cool so L's working with space force on UAP stuff it's even cooler than you think really he was working with David grush on UAP stuff at spaceforce for the UAP task force oh my God that's great so our good good boy and Big Daddy Lou both working together that's great absolutely now believe it or not there's plenty more to talk about here what how uh hang on another episode right like we we'll see uh for now the short version is that after Lou resigned he worked closely with Chris melon to advocate for disclosure to Congress and basically every good thing that's come out of congress with regards to UFOs since 2017 can be traced directly back to Lou and Chris doing the work and it's not exaggerating to say that if the UAP disclosure act passes this year we've got Lou and Chris to thank for it I mean it certainly seems like it's not just 2017 it seems like it was what all the way since 2007 like well yeah but you know publicly advocating with Congress yeah before that he was internal yeah still incredible like that that's an amazing Legacy yeah so I think you understand know why it took me so long to put the notes together on this like it's a mess it's a tangled mess it sometimes deliberately so you've got Pentagon statements that are intentionally obfuscated you've got former people who worked in the program coming out and saying confusing things you've got the New York Times article getting the name of the program wrong you've got a deliberate reuse of an internal nickname for a different program like it it's almost like it was designed to be hard to keep track of which when you're internal and trying to keep the thing obfuscated makes a lot of sense but makes your life a lot harder when you have to talk about it in public afterwards and I kind of understand why Lou came out and went with the simple and straightforward I was the director of the pentagon's UFO program a tip yeah and just I don't think put a lot of effort into correcting people when they started talking about assap and atip which he was not director of but he was a senior member of over time and took over responsibility and when the Pentagon comes out and says this is not an official program it had no funding or staff they're not wrong yeah but they're also not right and I don't know the whole thing is really exhausting and frustrating but I will tell you this for me at least after all this research where I've landed is I am more confident than ever that Lou is telling the truth that he did run at least the military side of the UAP program for the Pentagon he was involved in assap which was a much broader effort he worked closely with halud off Eric Davis Jim latsky Jay Stratton all these guys and when he comes out and tells us these are the reasons I quit I was frustrated that I couldn't get anyone to take it seriously he gave us the shorthand version of that in 2017 he was like I tried to direct brief the SEF and couldn't get access to him right and it seemed like kind of a weird thing to say but we now have a little more context for we found the Legacy program and were denied access to it we asked for the access rights we would need to get access and were denied because they've set up this Catch 22 we tried to set up an observation program and were denied we dealt with weird religious objections from the chain of command who were very explicit that they would shut down any attempt to look into this because it's demonic yeah I get it I get why he quit I think the plan he came up with is great I hope that it works it seems to be working but it's not done yet yeah anyway I have been talking for an hour and a half about Lou alzando and how he saved the Pentagon from UFOs what do you think man like this was a lot like where are you at yeah to me this tells the story of someone who's trying very hard to work the system and live in that sort of like gray space in between things and trying to play the game the best he could but the game was just rigged against him and uh this is a case of the the the random number generator dealt him a [ __ ] hand right yeah yeah like yeah RN Jesus was not with him in this this time yeah load a new save flu yeah exactly just just uh Ascend and reset my man yeah yeah um yeah but it it sounds maddening uh it also sounds exactly like my work um so yeah I I don't blame him for quitting and it makes me think maybe I need to retire and write a a tell all book oh [ __ ] all right I don't think the New Relic whistleblower yeah exactly it's a much less exciting book it did not make number one on the New York Times bestseller not I was okay over there you know yeah oh man yeah it's it's been wild digging into this stuff and I kind of going back to what Matthew Pine said about how this summer the goal is not to make new extraordinary claims it's to have more and more senior credible people come out and back up David gush's claims now David grush made a huge Splash when he came out but Lou is making an even bigger Splash here number one New York Times bestseller number two on Amazon interviews on CNN interviews on Rogan like he is getting out there he's talking to the people he's keeping all of this stuff on the the tip of Mind as we're heading into Congress debating about the UAP disclosure act and we can only assume that just like he's been doing the whole time since he resigned he's working closely with Chris melon and talking to Congress and keeping the pressure on them to get the UAP disclosure Act passed and as we've talked about before UAP disclosure is not automatic magic disclosure but it's a big freaking step in that direction that bill has some teeth to it in a way that has been battle honed over the last 5 years of Pentagon resistance they now know like okay here are the tools they're going to pull out to try to stop us we wrote this law to defang every single one of their defenses you know what interesting the uh eminent domain Clause was in the UAP PDA version one was the thing that they fought so hard against but at least one of the contractors would love to get rid of it interesting maybe they're not yeah and I think given a little bit more of the context here about Lou trying to get access to it and the defense contractors wanting to get rid of it and the CIA and the intelligence Community shutting down access um the eminent domain Clause makes a little more sense like look it's not up to you anymore this material will be shared um I think we're suffering from one of those things where you know like when uh the Skinwalker Ranch guys Brandon Fugal and Tim Taylor come out and say eminent domain means they could come take Skinwalker Ranch from us he's not wrong that's what the law says but I think we're dealing with an imperfect legal tool where I don't think there are a lot of ways for them to say what they're trying to say which is you don't get to tell us no when you are an illegal Legacy program hiding non-human remains like those are now available to the government I don't think that translates to Brandon fugle hand over the keys to the ranch I might be wrong who knows right programs get abused all the time I don't fault them for having concerns but I think this is definitely one of those things where like the tool in the law is kind of a blunt hammer and I would love to see them make him more uh you know carefully defined cutout of what they're actually trying to do I also still kind of wonder if the eminent domain isn't in there as a bartering chip like you come in and you say we want everything that's in there and all the people who said no last year see that you're serious and they try to haggle you down and you give up the part you don't really care about maybe that's eminent domain Maybe yeah um yeah the the thing about eminent domain is that like it's just you end up in from from what I hear you just end up in um like legal proceedings pretty much guaranteed um oh yeah because you have to be able to like the government has to be able to prove that it's important for public use whatever that means and that the current owner is receiving just compensation whatever that means I was like how do you define just compensation for a crash flying sa yeah Priceless UFO like I don't know yeah good luck you can't even maybe the Counterpoint is there they've had it for 50 years and have proven derived zero value from it we'll give you a dollar yeah right take it out of your hands oh my God all right y'all thank you so much for joining us on it's a very exciting time you can find sh and more on our website very exciting time.com as well as links to our Discord and social media accounts you can also email us at Scott or Chuck at very exciting time although honestly we're on Discord a lot more and if you'd like to support the show um check out our patreon patreon.com exciting time where you can even join as a free uh free member which actually does help yeah for sure and Chuck as always my wife thanks you for listening to me talk about UFOs so she doesn't have to