Jacques Vallee: Forbidden Science of UFOs

Transcript

hi all uh we're lucky enough today to be joined Again by jacqu fet one of our old friends uh we interviewed him recently but we're lucky enough to speak to him again today uh the focus of our discussion today is going to be his new book which is Forbidden Science 6 scattered castles over the years jacqu has been releasing uh a whole bunch of his Diaries every 10 a 10e installments he just keeps uh releasing a new diary um and we're up to number six now if you haven't been reading them they're just fantastic um but today we're going to focus on number six maybe reference back a few of the others but uh today number six so uh welcome jacqu thank you glad to have a chance to discuss it with you we feel privileged to talk to you again so soon after the last interview um your Diaries provide a stunning insight into your whole career in ufology and life in general I'm just wondering what prompted you to begin them and was it difficult to motivate yourself to continue documenting things decade after decade well the you know Diaries are a form of literature that's more appr appreciated I think in Europe than than it is in the in in America um the very often Diaries are published after the death of a of a writer and the writer publishes novels or other serious books and then uh then you find out he was he or she was keeping a diaries for many years and those are published later um I to me they were they were important at at a time in my life when uh I was really hesitating you know my father had just died I was a young student uh with no money essentially in Paris uh I was I was a good student but conditions were tough uh politically in France if you remember there was Vietnam War in France the Indochina war and then the the Algerian war and so the the war never stopped in in in in France there was always conflict there was a lot of turmoil that interfered with um education interfered with with studies and and everything else um I I started writing to find some uh peace and find a place where I could center myself and and also U to to use you know a term a scientific term calibrate myself um which is what you do in science before you do anything uh you're supposed to calibrate your instruments except in euphology where is no calib can everybody can do whatever they want um and I found that this was very useful because I could of course at the time I had no no idea to publish them for one thing I didn't think anybody would ever be um interested in in what you know student in Paris would go go through on on a day to day but I was was um in touch with people who were with you know in touch with scientists and other people and uh what we were doing was what I was learning was was interesting so uh as time went on I found that it was a good reference for me uh to again to see to to find my way through uh the the French education which at that point was still very very good and by the time you got to the San it was extraordinary uh and because we we had leading World scientist uh teaching us uh the problem was that that they were not approachable because there were too many students but at least we were in in a in a movement that so that carried me through the the initial phases of the journal and then I found it was so useful that I continued writing it uh I don't have a good memory so this was a good way of retracing where I had been and looking for mistakes and when you're uh you know when you're young you make lots of mistakes you don't know where you should go and um the and and no not to mean that you don't make mistakes later on when when you get older um so that so that was that was a motivation um to continue not and of course euphology was a trigger um because they you know I started about the time when the subject became uh prominent in in French media and uh we were talking about it as students was especially in science was this something where science should be applied and we had some illusions that science could probably attack the problem successfully very quickly if we could get the right resources into it and um then uh I started doing as as you know I had seen an object with other wies when I was a teenager and then my first job was at Paris observatory in the early days of the Space Program working for the prime minister of France this was there was no space agency in France at the time and this was strategic so uh we were working under the the Prime Minister you know um uh Duty and uh the the people I was in touch with at the time were people who had an inquiring mind and we started this little group that became known as The Invisible college and so on and I thought you know historically it was important to record all that because we I we really thought and turned out to be right that we were at the very beginning of something that could get very big where um other people would join in uh other people would take over and and Carry It Forward which I still hope and they would need to know something about their history right so they did wouldn't make the same mistake so that was and then um I found it very useful for also to record uh emotions which are part of science uh if you look at the life of Einstein You know it's not just general relativity you if you look at the life of Madame C you know it's not not just uh Radioactive polonium you know and and so on on the way to having two Nobel prizes uh she had some fairly violent emotions as well and so um you know it's become something very rich for me that I could continue to uh and and now I find you know unfortunately many of the people who are in my Diaries are dying and new people are coming in into this into this cycle and uh it's a way for me to record how I've changed with respect to a world that is you know continuing to change in radical ways so it's a long-winded answer to your question that's that's why I've continued to do it uh I've I've often thought that I should not publish it now that I should let you know my kids publish it if they want to but then um I find that it's useful even the things that are painful for me may be useful for people coming into this field and and you know they will judge me as as they want I mean it's um it's open uh the I I do try to uh not to infringe at all on the privacy of other people unless they authorize me to uh and uh I think that's know that has to be one of the rules um so I think that's that's why I I continue to uh to do it right um you know in your journals uh you share your experiences working with uh different groups that have tried to study the UFO problem in some official capacity or on a civilian uh capacity you know all Project Blue Book the condom committee uh see the the group in France the official group in France later bass and then later uh you know your friends the that that call themselves The Lone Stars so you worked with a multitude of large UFO research organizations but you and your colleagues seem to have been more fruitful when working quietly and alone so I guess my question is is there a way to properly study uh the phenomenon by large groups and in an official capacity that could avoid the mistakes of previous attempts well um you know the same problem exists in the in all of science um the uh and and even in in art um yeah at after the war uh there was a u uh a Nobel Prize given to a a French scientist who lived in the south of France in the unoccupied Zone that that where the Germans were not in control and uh he had no contact with um his colleagues in in science and um he made because he didn't go to congresses and he said himself you know I couldn't go to conferences to International meetings and so on I didn't know what my colleagues were working on for four years so I thought well what can I do around here in my lab that uh I've always wanted to do and that nobody else was do so he started messing around with things in his lab and uh the that gave him the Nobel Prize in medicine well uh so it it's useful to to be solitary uh from time to time to to recalibrate I I've done that myself both um because I was forced to do it and at other times because I wanted to do it and I was disgusted with everything that was going on uh you know take the the Condon study um I followed of course a Condon study Dr heik and I were the first scientist to to testify before Condon I I still appreciate what uh situation where Professor Condon was I'm not ready to throw stones at him uh but I was disgusted by the reaction uh people did not read his report the New York Times said well it's flying sources are know essentially useless uh and uh same thing with on television and the same thing with the the national Academia of Sciences uh in the US uh at that point I told Dr HCK you know I'm not staying in the United States and you know if if that's science in the US I don't want any to it and uh my wife felt the same way uh Janine and we we sold everything we had which wasn't very much uh including an old car and we took we kept the books and we went back to France permanently uh that lasted uh 11 months because France was not in much better shape and we came back but the the fact was that uh when I was in France as you may know in May 1968 in France there was a a major Uprising where nobody could work and I had a good library and I started so you know looking at things that I probably would never have looked at seriously uh in normal ways with my surrounded with my colleagues working with Dr Heck and others and I wrote passport to Magonia which was you know like a comet out of nowhere and uh was essentially rejected by by everybody uh especially by the uh UFO researchers because um no for for obvious reason MH and I could not have written it if I had stayed in Chicago uh if I continued to work in American Science and American I I probably would have done some interesting things because it was my PhD was in artificial intelligence in 1967 um artificial intelligence has a long tale and uh I my PhD was in AI applied to astronomy but uh there were people at in downtown Chicago not at Northwestern in in Evanston but downtown running the finance department who wanted me now that I had my PhD and you know to bring some students and and redo AI for the Commodities Market in Chicago you know everybody talks about the stock market which is in New York uh the the market which is in some ways more relevant to you and me every day is a Commodities Market because it's you know the price of sugar the price of steel the price of copper and so on varies every day and that's traded in Chicago and my uh the technology had developed for AI in astronomy could apply directly to that and that I often think of what I you know what I I I could have done if I had stayed there and taken that offer uh and well instead I wrote passort to Magonia and I don't I don't regret it but that's you know that's an example of at the same time I was when I in in France we started the invisible College I mean with u costado borar who was a leading Rel relativist in France with Remy chauan who was a leading biologist at the sban of course with with Melle and with a cad of of people like Pierre Guan who was a you know planetary astronomer so that's when the essentially the invisible college that Dr Heek had wanted to had been dreaming about but we made it happen so you can see where you know like many scientists I went from periods where I was just alone uh with books but you know when I wrote passport to Magonia uh there was a general strike in France that lasted one month uh I think in in the US the United States have never had the experience of a general strike that last one month freezes country and the um the only people who kept well their shops open were the the bookstores uh because they had nothing else to do I so I uh spent a lot of time in Paris going to the old bookstores and you could still buy some of those you know the complete works of paracelsus for what what I could afford which I certainly cannot do today so the uh I surrounded myself with the you know the leading thinkers of uh the last five centuries with published books and I had all those books around me so in in a way I was never alone uh returning to like the whole question of working within a big organization part of your career has been um working with the government or the military as part of like a larger group um is it worth having that complication of being bound by official secrecy and also the possibility of dirty tricks by government or military which we've seen throughout the you know the history of ufology um what's your view on UFO researchers working with the military or government having done it yourself well I'm I'm very concerned about the what's happening now where all the data and all the you know ethologists have stopped going in the field to talk to Farmers instead they they get on the internet and they want to talk about a general or Lieutenant colel has an idea about UFOs the ideas in the military uh the military has made the point early on that they are better at detecting things because they have equipment which is scientifically calibrated so what they can say you know if they say it's 10 met in diameter it is 10 meters in diameter if a farmer says it's about 10 m you know it could be 50 MERS I mean you have a unless you have a way of calibrating with other people you're stuck as a scientist so the military data looks better it's not better uh and you know in in one of the S conferences with Dr noan I I showed a curve that had two bumps there's a small bump which is a military reports of Pilots you know the nits that kind of thing and then a huge hill which has all the normal reports from normal people in the field they uh we underestimate the size of that Hill because only one out of 10 for example is is ever reported so it it's it's extremely rich you don't need a security clearance to approach the people uh and you know if you're lucky they'll give you a cup of coffee so they it's to me that's what I want to go back to as you know I've gone through Argentina this parts of argen cha four times and Brazil and Russia six times and certainly I know France very well and I've been in every part of France with local investigators who guided me to places where they were there were interesting sightings and that's been the bulk of my contribution it's not from [Music] uh apart from the the database develop but the most of my contribution has been with observations from the public right and uh you know including the the the Trinity cases in in in New Mexico which are extraordinarily rich and uh it it helps to have a wife who is a psychologist and knows how to talk to kids uh uh I'm I you know I'm remarried now to to a psychologist so that also tells you maybe about that I need help in that direction but the um I I I do think that yes there is a contribution from government files and government um organizations especially the military because the military has radar um you on the other hand you know the the radar on the limits was so good that all the data was confiscated so what what you read in the New York Times is one half of the experience of nit it's not the whole experience we don't know whether the radar data supports or doesn't support what the pilots SE have seen you you need you know what the what the military calls data Fusion data Fusion means you've got the the the witnesses you've got uh imagery from different cameras uh you've got information at different wavelengths from from sensors you have radar you have people on the ground watching things with binoculars if you're lucky and then you have the awax way above you coordinating the fleet okay so out of that you're going to get something that's extremely rich and you're going to get it if you have the right security clearances and then you need the clearances for the submarines and the submarines don't talk to anybody no matter what clearance you have unless unless you understand what a submarine does okay which is to stay in out of the way for a long time and so the people don't understand that they you know they um they assume that of course that's a you know the gold standard it's not the gold standard so with the nimit story do we know uh who actually sequester the data because the story is that some people in civilian clothing came on board the a aircraft carrier and they took all that data and that is seems to be the case with other cases that you investigated in which your contacts told you that someone actually totally went against all the proper channels of you know to secure information so what is that all about is that part of what you call the interference that is you know some someone something that it seems to be trying to keep us in the dark about the phenomenon or is a group a military group that is you know trying to monopolizing all these data well you know you have to keep um a certain sense of humor about all of I know it's hard to do but I I think it's simple um one time there was a situation like that and and Dr Heek went to someone he trusted very much K friend kol friend had run Project Blue Book for a couple of years uh and he was one of the leaders of blue book that Dr Heck trusted there were others he didn't exactly trust uh the and and he asked him you know essentially that question I mean what is it about you know and and colal friend of course had higher clearances when Dr H and he was very very funny he was a senior officer you know black officer uh with a a good sense of humor and he looked at high neck and says it it means one of two things either they know what it is or they don't know what so I think that's I've never forgotten that because that's a sense when people tell you well it's classified you know I couldn't possibly share this with you because it's classified well um and we were in that situation you know with the the bass project where we had top secret clearances and we were asking people in the Pentagon you know hey you know here is my clearance we were studying this you know what was it and they say we couldn't possibly share that with you you only have a top secret clearance well okay so uh so I can't do it this way and I'm a scientist trying to you know make sense out of this because I've seen one when I was 15 and I I've known all my life that this existed I mean there and I've spoken to hundreds of witnesses by now in many cultures okay so um so I'm going to do something else uh you know I'm going to continue to no but buy a plane ticket to buen Osiris and I'll go talk to you know this young man who saw something when he was 14 and I met him when he was 14 and now he's 43 and uh I want to know if he continues to see them and we had a great time as you know uh going over all of that with the people who had followed that his parents are still alive you know thank God and uh we we had a great time and we learned a lot about the phenomenon because you may have questions about the phenomenon when he was 14 but that continued and he's in touch with something today okay and um and we know the culture and we have a group around us who understands the uh you know we have psychiatrists we have medical people we have investigators so on so those cases are much richer I mean what can I do about the nits you know I've never been on an aircraft carrier um I've I've worked with some of the um some of the officers from the nits on on the database development and uh they are remarkable you know remarkable men and I respect them deeply not so much for the not only for the nimit thing but for their whole career uh you know when they say that they've seen something they've seen something it's ridiculous psychologists come along and say how do we know that their Vision was I mean these are people who are in combat in Cambodia you know and and so on so uh the I I think we need at some point we we need to combine I hope that with Dr noan and with the group who can achieve that combine what the military can contribute because there are many things they don't know at every level uh at every level there is another level right um I think why you started saying you know the people barded the the the limits actually they boarded the companion ship that had the radar limits the radar you're right they and they confiscated all the radar data well yeah but the the radar was an experimental radar so maybe they were just interested in the radar who says that they were interested in the UFO the there are many cases where that that not many but there are cases that are classified because that the the camera was classified and you know not the not the picture the picture of some some vague thing and they that's what they show before Congress you know they show vague clouds uh black and white you know is essentially zero information I mean that's why scientists laugh at that they say I mean that's what Congress does you know why don't they call us so uh you know that again you have to look at this with some some distance right uh you know speaking about things that uh classified and then they were released and and brings more U like confusion to matters is the the issue of Roswell as the journals progressed Roswell became more and more prominent in the entries you know in the in the earlier Forbidden Science volums it was almost taken as a joke by you like oh yes these Americans who think that the aliens are going to come and crash in the middle of the desert but then as as the years went by and and you start talking to your contacts you seem to have become more and more convinced that something actually happened in Rosell in July of 1947 yet given so many explanations that has been given to this one case which has become something of a Cornerstone of American euphology you know there's a traditional ET explanation that that was supported by the late Stanton fredman Kevin Randall Don Schmid there's the bodies Natures theory proposed by Nick Redford you know the idea that there were pestine experiments with prisoners of war and even maybe psychiatric patients there's the mangle Stalin explanation that it was all this some kind of staging uh you know by Joseph Stalin in order to scare the Americans and this was proposed in the book by an any ja obson and there's the Callin Elite demonic deception that all we all these was some kind of like chimira created by demonic entities in order to deceive us there's a large Etc you know I'm just covering a small fraction of all the the the explanations that have been given to Roswell so the question is where do you particularly stand on Roswell um in um in science there is a time to make a list of hypotheses and and there is a time to stay in the lab and and and just keep experimenting um I I don't think we're at the point where we can make hypothesis if you look at look at the rainbow okay all of us have seen rainbows rainbows are real uh uh they are not physical you can't go up and touch them uh they uh but they're real they are physical things we can photograph we can analyze we understand the conditions where they happen but what is it and for you know people have seen rainbows for as long as man has been looking at the sky and had no idea of how that happened I mean they had theories you know God the fairies gosam what insects you know there is no way you can understand the rainbow if you haven't taken physics you know at least 101 or maybe 2011 to understand uh how particles charge particles move in in in in Feld and to do that you need to know that the Earth has a magnetic field and the strength of a magnetic field so that photons behave in a funny way and and and present to us with certain colors under certain conditions in at a certain Northern latitude okay so now we can have and you know I was so delighted about five years ago there was a new paper about um uh about rainbows that said no no no I mean the the the calculations are wrong because there is one more term and so so people are still discovering what physically goes into creating a rainbow or creating the the Aurora Bist or creating the you know so um the uh you know we're still working on this because there are mysteries in the higher atmosphere and there are Mysteries even close to us with with the rainbow so um I think we're in the same situation I think we should we have not done a good enough job of documenting the behavior of the phenomenon and certain conditions and the idea that this is extraterrestrial is uh it's it's a natural hypothesis and I certainly have nothing against it but it's only one of many and so the other thing you do in science with a hypothesis is you try to shoot it down you shouldn't spend your life trying to prove your hypothesis uh yeah that's not what a good scientist does a good scientist you know looks for for possible hypothesis and then he tries to negate negate them one by one okay and with with UFOs it's easy because you can pretty much negate all of them including the ET idea so um where does that leave us well we should look at the data we have as you know under the the bass program uh we we built um the database that I started I started many of the the primary elements and then we built it to about 12 databases uh going across in the the different modalities of observation and the different cultures with four actually five U interpreters who could move everything back to English under a single flat structure why a flat structure because we want it to we don't know what variable influences another variable I don't know if the Luminosity of the object creates or enhances a particular State medical condition for the witness I don't know that okay uh I have to give Dr Green uh you know or Dr Keller the the data naked data on you know what we know about the physiology biology of the witness um all the injuries to the witness that are not the same thing uh and also the physical conditions physical parameters attached to the UFO uh if we do that well enough long enough then we can go through a phase of cleaning up all of that because we have the richness of of the entire database we ended up with 260,000 cases all over the world in many different languages and then uh once you reduce that you don't need 260,000 cases if you had 40,000 you know would would that be enough for you guys okay so I'll give you 40,000 you know next week and we can start working on that putting AI on top of that that's a point where our budget was cut uh and I I've asked a question many times I've had many answers I don't think I have the right answer something or somebody in Washington decided to essentially take the money for something else period now I have very little understanding of what goes on in Washington you know I live in California uh between California and France and uh so I um uh I don't know what happened but I can tell you what happened on our side is that we essentially let go of the entire team of about 40 uh analysts and interpreters with two week notice so what we've done that people in Washington have not understood is that we haven't lost data I mean the data is going to be there various places okay or it can be reconstructed if we need to but we we lost the intelligence about the data that we had spent taxpayers money and the time of very good people with with intelligent investigators who had been carefully you know selected uh by Dr Keller and and and the rest of the team to work with us and they they learned something in those two years that's lost to the nation essentially so a lost to the analysis so you can take a database you can move it to some you know uh some uh uh analysis Institute and they will analyze it but the who who are the people doing the job I mean how much do they understand about the situation about the witnesses about the process about how do you do this about how you know what distinguishes um a superficial injury uh like temporary blindness from uh uh from a disease that can be a pathological disease and so um what distinguishes the physiology from the pathology we spent a lot of time of the entire team with Dr Green with with other medical people and so on defining those fields so even though it looks like you know there is some there is some Secret in in in the mix the that has gone away and there was a plan to do something else which was already designed to go to certain direction now as as a computer scientist I have a lot of respect for my colleagues for what they are inventing for what the amazing things that are happening now in Ai and so on uh they'll take it in a different direction maybe you'll find something much more interesting but they can they can hire a very bright programmer they'll have to spend two years as we did training her to understand what UFO data is you know it's not astronomical data it's not biological data it's not psychiatric data it's not any of that it's a mix of many many influences and then language on top of it is is another complex thing uh I I I learned that uh you know by simply talking to people in uh in Mexico you know for them they said we had a a close encounter you know close encounter it's fine so was it 5 m away 10 meters away no it was about 2 kilometers away in the sky in the clouds well what's Sano about that this is not that's not close I mean when Dr H and I talking about Close Encounters he made up term close encounter that meant you could almost you know if you took a few steps you could touch the thing okay and um that's you know the translation uh is going to be wrong right if you don't know the circumstances you're going to throw into Close Encounters a lot of things that were 2 kilometers away and and then the in the the physics is going to be all wrong so again train your people for that you know For Heaven's Sake uh but you have to train them in Russian Portuguese in French and in Spanish to begin with given those difficulties um what do you think about the because you're trusting witness testimony lot on UFOs um and you've also spoken about you know messengers of deception or any type of deception really in the whole process how much can we actually trust the testimony of witnesses and where do we go with that when when we're assigning a level of trust there um it it looks deceptive and so the first reaction of of journalists and so on need to throw it away I mean the you know the the the night Watchmen who finds himself faced with a you know an alien in a UFO in a clearing and the the alien says what time is it and he says it's 2:00 and the man says all the The Entity says you li it's 530 or something like that's that's that's absurd okay uh and then you know in that particular case I don't remember the exact details but the uh the pilot said uh where am I and he was pointing you know something like a gun at at at the guy the the man was not paralyzed but he stopped uh this was relatively people remember the war he was in alzas the the man asked am I in Germany or Italy and the witness says you're in France and there is Switzerland between Germany and Italy I mean it's this pilot was a was was insane unless you begin to look at what were the questions and what were the answers two questions one about time one about space both of them says you're wrong you don't understand question which to me at the next level but you have to go to the next says you have no idea your ideas about time are wrong your ideas about space are wrong which is what uh Eric Davis tells me when we talk about physics okay he says well you know all those things they are convenient uh time and space are convenient to do physics but uh that's not the way the world really works uh so those are yeah deceptive until you think about them and when you talk to people who work with a higher intellect animals on the planet the octopus um the dolphin you know or some several types of birds parrots some some parrots you find that um things the same way they they they they will play games with you after a while when they get bored with the questions you ask them they want to go go to a different level now we can't because we don't speak parot or we certainly don't speak octopus but we can Design Systems through which we can begin to entertain a conversation that's what what I'm interested in now because I think we are doing that and I think that's probably the most um segregated part of the study that's going on and uh Pro potentially the most the most useful in the long run much more useful than having you know more more radar returns from right other experiments you've been uh recently conducting um seems to be more on the esoteric side of things like in the last chapters of volume six you vaguely described an attempt to materialize either an orted object or to summon some kind of apparition inside your own apartment which triggered an incredibly frightening frightening outof body experience in which you perceived uh a tall entity uh in your kitchen but my question is what is your general take on the so-called apports which have been documented in parapsychology for the last I don't know 150 years what is their possible link to the UFO phenomenon you know has there ever been an attempt to study orted materials using the same technology and the same techniques that you and Dr Gary Nolan have employed to analyze UFO materials um we are just at the beginning of looking at UFO materials um the the first thing you do is to try to find cases that are well studied already and there are many as you know in literature um where some material has been recovered am am I answering your question yeah yeah we're going to yeah so I'll I'll I'll go on that the um we've been doing that for a long time certainly in France from from way back um Dr stck at Stanford as you know did that I was working with him in the 70s and continued in the 80s 90s he has uh turned over to me all the material um Project Blue Book was doing that I remember you know at uh right S A Force Base they they had um you know they had shelves with lots of strange stones and rocks and metals and so on I assume all that has been thrown away project was over um and the stories were you know were not not good enough to really spend the time to take it to a lab and spend weeks or months studying so we we're restarting that people have been interested all along I remember when do when Dr sturak turned over to me his collections he said that uh part of it was missing because he had put it in a safe deposit box at the Bank of America downtown palto which is a bank for Stanford and the director of the bank called him in his office and said Professor Stark would you come by when you have a chance he went to the bank and the director took him to the safe and showed him his um his his space opened up and the the door had been left open but whoever found the two keys to open the uh the case and to steal the now this was not done by a student it wasn't done by somebody Drifting by you have to to know the procedures of the bank you had to have the other key and you have to had a have a copy of Dr Sto key or you had to be very very good at opening saves in Banks or maybe the material the materialized itself somebody somebody was very very interested to the to the point of doing that okay um so um we know that there is value in that so the I think what we're doing now with Dr noan and three or four other places including the French are revisiting cases where we already know the composition we already know the analysis as you know we've published one completely from beginning to end uh the case in the in the midwest where we have we we know the names of all the witnesses we know where they were within an hour of the sighting and we have the steel and we know we have I I recovered the the infra the the photographs taken by the police of the melting steel that they you know on that in that town so um and the firemen were there so we we have uh something that's you know complete testimony and we have the metal and uh we have reanalyzed it to get to the Isotopes after two analyses that were done by by industry uh at the request of of the police and the Air Force so um that's the standard I I think that that paper with Dr Nolan uh couple of our colleagues uh is is a standard on how you do that how you select the cases um now um there is nothing especially interesting so far in the the Isotopes in other words the isotope ratios were not manipulated uh by whoever was flying the thing that they saw flying over the town mhm uh we don't understand why somebody would want you know half a ton of melted steel aboard a flying device right they as part of the study they call the Strategic Air Command because the B52 had flown over the town uh on that uh that evening and the U the the Strategic Air Command laughed and they said you know we we carry nuclear bombs don't carry furnaces MH and so the it's open I think we've try to show method good methodology good standards to continue to do that I think we we need we and our colleagues in different countries need to continue doing that and then we'll be able to compare results right I guess what I was where I was going with my question is that you have on the one hand the UFO Phenomenon with objects that have the capacity as you have recorded in your cases or to materialize and dematerialize instantly right and on the other hand we have what are called in parapsychology apports which can be any kind of objects you know Keys books photographs that are also recorded to be M able to appear out of thin air during spiritual sances so I guess I guess where I was going to is is there a link between those objects the orts and the UFO maybe the UFO is you know just a big ass aort you know so I was thinking that maybe there was some scientific interest in go and analyze the you know molecular composition of an orted object using the same tools you have employed to analyze the uform materials maybe we could find some correlation there the in in Paras pychology the app uh comes out of nowhere it manifests um here we we have now people saw saw something bright falling from that object and they they saw where it fell MH uh they were it fell in a park where there were people just it was a nice evening was very cold but people were walking through through the park and then there were two other groups of witnesses who were at some distance from there in driving or walking in the in the town the so the the application is that it was ejected by the object and that's usually the way witness witnesses will that's the words that they will use it was ejected from from the object so the of course it's interesting from an AO aerodynamic uh point of view is it is it something that's used in propulsion MH now why would you use steel in uh in propulsion well I don't know there I found if you read the end of our article in um you know in in in that Science magazine uh you which is an astronautics it's a top astronautics magazine in in the world and so they they took an interest certainly in what what we had to report uh the you find that uh um the the the the material itself is um there are experiments done with molten steel and that have to do with propulsion they but not not in as far as I know not in in flying devices although people have patented doesn't mean they built it but they they patented methodology where they would use Liquid Metal uh now what why would you use something very heavy as your liquid metal aboard a levitating device well it depends on how you mean levitating if if if you have a way of uh cancelling out gravity then it could be as heavy as you want you know you could use mercury uh you could use steel you could use any combination that you like and in fact in some of these experiments and some of the patterns that I've looked for and and read they they are using uh fairly heavy metals um I still don't understand it but at least you know we're making some progress there we we're looking at things that are given to us and we we're trying to look at them you know in a way that's rational I think the you you hinted and I didn't do a good job of picking up on that but you hinted on on the role of par psychology and all this I mean it's obvious obvious when when I I I talk to uh Dr POF and others on on our team uh the the team is well vered you know the team from bass was including Mr bigo are all well vered in par psychology and psychotronics in general and um we didn't have a chance to go very far to go far enough with that uh and it takes a different different climate different structure to do that but we've done it before so can redo it right um there could be a PO and there are cases in you know in the literature of in in connection with an encounter some things appearing out of thin air MH um and uh I you know at that point it's it it reverts to perh psychology more than physics um although parapsychologists have gone quite a way in in trying to analyze those those objects and weigh them and and you know do experiments with them um I you know uh certainly urri uh and uh uh others connected with the experiments at SRI have done those experiments in in some cases with things that came out of thin air know and uh with with good good evidence with film switching up the topic uh a little bit when I was reading the book uh the latest volume uh I noticed that the shadow of death really hangs over it you open up uh the book by talking about how you are feeling after the death of your beloved Janine um and then throughout the book there's the passing of many of your Associates and peers and then even younger people like Bob Bigelow's grandson I'm just wondering how that's affected you over that you know 10 15 year period has it changed who you are has it changed your view on like death or the phenomenon well in uh in in one word uh it made me look at life as something both mine and that of others as something much more precious uh and that know those are it's trivial to say that but there are many things you don't realize until your friends are gone and uh I have fortunate in being being able to gain new friends who are younger and and uh you know are interested in the same things I am uh and I have three grandsons uh who are starting to ask all kinds of questions that I cannot answer so that that certainly keeps me keeps me going but yes uh you know the there is a a wound there is a uh that that you that you carry and it uh it it's precious um it it makes you you know trivially it makes you want to move faster and and get some things on record which is also why I continue know to to write write this but I'm going to stop very soon because now I going back to one of your earlier questions I think I could do more by myself for a while by myself means you know surrounded by an invisible college but uh so I'm not exactly by myself I can I can reach and talk to paracelsus you know so uh and I can also have mental you know arguments with with Dr HCK or with a number of other people so um but now now I can I also have the luxury of uh looking back uh at what these people who have passed on contributed to me and and things that I didn't necessarily understand at the time you know uh and uh you know certainly there are things that get resolved as you as you go along but you you begin to realize that they could have been resolved in a different way your kids certainly teach you that as you go along as you get older uh and you know you have to to take it um I'm not um it's sad but it's not discouraging at all I mean it's only an encouragement to try to make continue to make a contribution as long as you can and realizing that you know in every one of the fields I've touched there are now people who are much much much better than I am and and and can take take those uh along however again uh when I I worked at The Institute for the future there was the the our our leader our president came from Sri and at at SRI Stanford research he had made the rule that if you're going to do a forecast for 10 years 10 looking 10 years ahead that technology especially you have to look back five times those that that that time so you have to look back 50 years if you want to understand understand you know what radar will be in 10 years what are the things that we couldn't solve 40 years ago or that we started to we developed a technology for some with computers we developed technology to do certain things that our computers don't do very well but you have to look at why did were they stupid when they developed that technology which is something that occurs to me often when I look at at connectors I mean why do we have that many connectors that only connect to a particular Apple device yes and I can't use it when I'm in the field with a another phone I can't use the phone okay uh who thought of that well the the reason is people who thought of that were very clever and they wanted to Corner the market for that particular device they want you to make sure that you couldn't use it unless you bought their device okay but you know the it we certainly could uh obviously you know a good young engineer could design a universal connector for any kind of phone so the you just need enough little plot so that you can choose which ones you connect and which ones you don't connect that can be done by you in a number of ways so the solution is obvious but again uh I think that's one of the benefits of of age that I I I don't have to worry about you know people say you should rebuild that database that was lost or vanished from the bigo project from bass but I I don't want to do that mean there are you know databases have moved on I I know where they've gone there are people pushing that that's fine uh you know I might want to approach them to use some of the things that they are doing but I don't need to to do it myself it it just turned out that at one time I was the guy who had the most access to the data we needed and and I understood usage of the and now there are places where nobody has gone nobody has gone before that that I want to I want to go to and uh my the great gift of having live to to now is that I don't need a team you know there are things you can do with with this computer I have in front of me I mean this is an Extraordinary Machine by the standards of 10 years or or even five years ago and I can you I know how to use it and uh it replaces know a lot of services not not it doesn't replace people no nothing can replace people but I I should not have said that but it can replace a lot of services that are embedded in all the hardware in front of me and I I know how to trigger it so so I'm going to do that there is for example a question about uh the interference syndrome that your colleagues at Bass coin uh which seems to be a name they were they give to to Encompass uh the medical and biological problems caused by being being in close proximity to UFOs uh so with regards to that would you recommend caution against trying to actively engage with the phenomenon like you know visiting hotpots visiting P places where there's been maybe a a landing or you know things like what Dr Steven Greer does you know the the ca5 experiments in which they try to actively try to summon uh UFOs um you're talking about the from the point of of the witness yeah I mean is it dangerous for a witness to try to you know go and try to like get close to a UFO or try to almost like call a UFO um I I've I have not found a pattern at all and I don't know if some of my colleagues have in terms of who gets hurt and who doesn't get hurt when you're close to a UFO as you know the the kid in Argentina exactly walked right up yeah to to the uh to the object and to the occupants and climbed the ladder um inside and you know was not not worse for it um the but there are the horse got hurt because the the horse was nervous and was tied to the ladder to the object right that's one of the you know those are cases that are so absurd and at the same time so beautiful right they they become most archetypes you archetyp or the of course their horse doesn't like to be tied to a flying saucer so the their horse is going to move around and hurt his leg in fact they had to put their horse to death uh a week later because it was useless U they couldn't ride you know they couldn't ride it anymore well what do you make of that I mean you can you can take it any kind of uh was that um how come the aliens couldn't cure their horse you know the uh but at the same time the the the kid didn't have any problem it wasn't exposed to anything bad he had to get out quickly because they were going to take off and they didn't want to take off with him um and he has he was stopped by a sort of an invisible barrier but that again that didn't hurt him other cases I mean know the case of the uh the the geologist in uh in Canada who had they his shirt imprinted on his chest by the radiation that came from the object right um and and he was some distance of it he wasn't getting yeah to touch it um the we don't we don't know what the rules are uh if it's the witness or if it's the object or if it's the situation or if there is a perceived Threat by quote them um and again I I don't think we're ready to draw up hypothesis I think we we need need good data we need to know the distances with some Precision we need to know the the no more about the type of radiation we're dealing with uh the types plural of of radiation um and you know there's where are the the the teams of scientists who are going to do this yeah just to wrap things up um at one point in the latest book uh you a moment of realization where you realize that your research topic of choice UFOs may involve a phenomenon that's deceptive and that you're working with military who might be deceptive um and then you've got the scientific Community who are just willing to put people like you down you know just because of the topic you're working on it's a fairly tough road that you've taken with your professional career at least in terms of your apology uh do you have any regrets about it given all the other options you had you could have becoming an AI researcher or all these other options do you have regrets about going the path of ufology or is it something that you think you were destined to do hell no uh I certainly don't uh the I look at my uh you know people of of my cohort and and what they've done with their life and how they are at the end of their life what they've learned they they've learned a number of things that you know have passed on to uh I've I've always looked at the next um Challenge and you know the funny thing is not only that I survived in in science I mean I people knew I I never tried to publish uh my UFO books under you know false name and so on I I did publish a couple of novel under you know under theum name uh because that's what you do in literature you know but in in science have never tried to hide and when people ask me they said well I saw one and you know tried to explain explain it to me and I listen you know if you have an explanation come up with it okay and I'll go and do something else and uh I I continued out of curiosity I think curiosity is the number one requirement if you're a scientist and uh you have to challenge yourself and once you've understood something you need to move to something else the you know nature presents you with things all all across the Spectrum so I um I I never stopped doing that and I I found that people either respected that or tolerated that because I was a very good programmer and at a time when programmers were you know were in in short supply especially scientific programms so I I I had a seat at the table discussing galaxies or discussing cancer research or discussing you know any a number of of topics where I could contribute um and uh I've what I've learned from that I think I've earned the you know the the respect of the people who were involved with those projects and so they kept me on or hired me to work on the next one after that you know within the academy um the the subject is still verbot but I could give you a name of 10 scientists that are respected and that names that you would recognize including some who became CEOs of companies in Silicon Valley who are respected uh either for their science or for the $500 million they have in the bank uh but you know that means something too um and who have had Close Encounters and I mean close uh and some of them continue to have encounters themselves or their family or people they trust and they're not going to publish that but um the uh they they certainly you know have helped along with who do you call at which lab to get get something tested cheaply and who you can trust to to look at photographs who has enough experience to tell you you know what where to take it you know what test to do uh and and so on so uh we we're past that you know of the I I really don't care uh what the academy says the academy has answers to a different to a different AUD uh it's it's the the the onetoone discussion about something that's on the table between us that's what I want okay I'll put something on the table and discuss it wonderful Jack thanks so much for your time today we really appreciate it um as as I always say me and Miguel could ask you questions all day and perhaps another time we might we'll get back to the Paras angle yes thank you whenever you m thanks thanks Jack M the book is guys get this book amazing yes thanks Jack byebye bye