On the AAWSAP-AATIP Confusion | Luis Cayetano (Ufos # 8 - July 7, 2024)

Transcript

and now for Mr Luis [Music] Kayano so there's my recent uh paper with v vient Juan bistos so that is the introduction there so this is a 74-page document which um took us a long time to write actually we tried to make it like up to the minute but at some point you just have to submit it because like you you'll just spend forever um updating it so um obviously this one was released recently you can find it on academia.edu uh I'm sure we'll provide the link for it and um here is the introduction and this is just a one-page intro it talks about basically what the paper's going to go into namely um the differences between and the confusion surrounding orap and atip so this is the DIA situated um program which is actually UFO paranormal program but it was buil to the government and the military as a uh future threats um weapons program so it's like projecting into the future about what the likely systems which would threaten American platforms and systems in the future would be and how America should adapt to that um and also here it just goes a little bit into kind of what the rest of the paper is about out so looking at the Historical backdrop of UFOs back into the 20th century and how even even going further back than that um this latest craze about U UAP and UFOs is actually uh retreading a lot of old ground but the motifs are a little bit different so each time they change but the basic Dynamics are the same um now the the book sorry the the paper itself is basically um it was conceived as a review of Skin Walkers at the Pentagon by lki K keler and nap so this is a 2021 book um looking at the yeah there's the the books right there so the one on the left is the original one although there had been previous books um were then put by uh these authors um to do with skin walker and some paranormal stuff as well but this is the one that sort of brought together the uh the link between skin walker branch and the um OSAP program and it did clear up a few confusions regarding the difference between it and atip but there are still a lot of questions remaining um some of a lot of the output I should say of alsap has not been released um the uh the durs defense intelligence research documents I think or review documents um 37 uh unclassified documents have been released and there's a 38th one which is a classified version of another of a unclassified one but um these were contracted um documents and um orap did a lot of other work as well but most of those documents have not been released to the public um the other book that we kind of touch upon this is like the follow-up book by the same authors inside the US government cover UFO program initial Revelations goes into more detail about orap SLP and uh goes into more details specifically about the different projects within that overarching program and it you know tries to defend the DDS as well as being like proper scientific U research efforts although we've got some misgivings about that that we go into in the paper um so uh the document after the intro starts off with a um chronology so this chronology is pretty long and it comes up into 2024 now the reason it starts in 1989 is because that's when George nap um investigative journalist with class TV in Las Vegas he reached out to Senator Harry Reid on a story linking Area 51 to UFOs and um you know naap would become famous for his uh breaking of the Bob Lazar story and he's become very intimately tied to that ever since but the the chronology basically goes on uh from that date um it it talks about the National Institute for Discovery science or Neds which is a civilian um research organization set up by Robert Bigalow who's featured very prominently in this entire Saga and um he's had ties to Senator Harry Reid and others he um is the one who won the contract for orap he set up an organization called bass um which is was underneath the umbrella of his company Bigalow Aerospace and um he's the one who provided kind of some of the resources although the money was actually put up by the government because there was a uh contracted program and so they responded to the tender they won the contract even though the contract had only been advertised for I think two months before the due date which is absurdly short but anyway uh Bigalow won that contract and then uh his organization was able to undertake the uh contract um you know specifications and uh mentioned there as well Hal POF uh jacqu Valle these are other personalities who have featured fairly prominently in this entire Saga as well uh Val would be will be probably known to many of you a famous French ethologist who's been at this for I think 50 plus years now how POF has also been very prominent in the UFO scene he's done done a lot of uh sort of physics research and um stuff stuff into Consciousness and psychic studies so a lot of these people sort of know each other they were involved in some of the um 1970s psychic uh research programs um linked to the CIA and the US Army and they've also tried to find links between Consciousness and UFOs actually previously talked a little bit about those links in a prior um show let's go to the next one please so after the chronology which does come up to the present date basically um and we do talk about some of those items in the chronology in more detail throughout the the rest of the paper but here it talks about the orap which stands for advanced Aerospace Weapons Systems applications program it was nicknamed uh atip so Advanced Aerospace threat identification program this uh these two names have caused a lot of confusion so there's been debate about whether would you know they were the same program were they different programs was one within the other one when did one start and the other start when did one begin and the other so when did one end and the other one end Etc and also to add more confusion um Lou alzono is obviously a very famous UFO person now um he he's been very intimately tied to the name ATP and many people have taken that to mean the official UFO program at the DIA in fact um his initiative was actually a follow on from the official orap whose nickname was atip but he retained the name atip so we call it a tip 2 later in the paper and we go into more detail about alesandro's role and the different ways that is kind of obfuscated or added confusion to this entire Saga he's actually got a book coming out pretty soon um I look forward to see what more contradictions he piles on top of the ones he's already contributed but here um it talks about um the aap's nature so what was it really about how was it sold to the DIA and the government who after all did foot the bill so $22 million not entirely clear how much of that money was actually spent but that's another you know murky area so we try our best to sort of clear up those uh confusions and provide what's actually known in logical format and uh chronology so to let researchers kind of piece together what's actually happened we will be doing um updates on this document um in the future as well as more details come in so um atip orap um the Monica itself the ATP Monica arose from an unclassified nickname uh inserted into a letter from Senator Harry Reid to the uh deputy secretary of defense requesting the creation of a special Access program uh this was ultimately rejected so he was seeking sap status which would have added another layer of secrecy um which is ironic because he's also mentioned in public that the government shouldn't hide things from its citizens and yet herei was apparently trying to increase the secrecy of this UFO program um yeah and Pentagon spokes people have also uh contributed to the confusion uh about ATP versus orap um sometimes they've said that they're the same program at other times that they're different or that Eland was involved in one way versus another so they've also contributed to this uh confusion although we regard the the primary responsibility for the confusion to have been um with the team principles and with aland okay let's go to the next one so the objective here we talk about the objective of orap and how it was sold so how or what did the government think it was really about and um it talks about you know they in the original solicitation um placed by laty so it talks about like Breakthrough technology applications into the future uh those sorts of potential threats to American systems doesn't init it doesn't explicitly talk about UFOs or extraterrestrials or any paranormal aspects which actually kind of makes it more difficult to square with the fact that they it was actually about skin walker phenomena and the links you know between Consciousness and UFOs um and so like that's kind of hard to say what what does that have to do with this solicitation so you know we think that probably almost certainly the government was tricked um Dia per se or its leadership didn't know what the program was really about when they got into it later on they caught wind of that and they probably tried to extricate themselves from the program and you know um pull of funding Etc try to put it somewhere else make it somebody else's problem possibly there was also an element of embarrassment there they felt that maybe they dropped the ball they should have know known what it was about but they didn't find out quickly enough and so maybe some of the obfuscation that's resoled Ed in this entire Saga has actually been because of Dia leadership trying to do damage control so we can't prove that but it's uh certainly a plausible hypothesis all right let's go yes secrecy so here it talks about Reeds um you know he's a advocacy for transparency and yet he was you know trying to put all sap into a under a sap umbrella special access program um so that's kind of ironic uh but still orap was even though it wasn't classified at the level that Reed wanted um it was still hidden um and it was a covero two-year program okay so we say here that the notable piece of Reed's political Legacy for our current purposes in thinking about UAP and UFO involvement by the US government uh is a piece of obscur ISM all right location so where was it bued and the timing of it so when did it actually go from and to that's also an area of a little bit of um it's a bit murky because we don't exactly know definitely when it started but the DIA awarded a 2-year contract from September 21st 2008 to September 30th 20 0 extended by Dia at no cost through December 21st 2010 and um so it probably I mean it ended definitely in 2012 but you know how much of the money the original money was still being spent um in the like couple last years or so and when did it really begin so it's possible that Bigalow had already started to assemble people in 2007 for this program and so some people cite the beginning of orap as being 2007 late 2007 um instead of 2008 um this would also speak to a uh if that's true then this would also speak to a kind of insider trading um aspect to this program uh given the issues with the um the the tender so there are some you know timing issues as well so there's a lot of stuff in this about this program which is still kind of confusing it's not not known for sure yet and different sources say different things let's go to the next one so this is um Arrow historical report summarizing the issue the timing issue as follows for orap orap ATP was terminated in 2012 upon the completion of its deliverables uh due to D DOD concerns about the project excuse me so those concerns are namely to do with what had they actually gotten into because they almost certainly didn't know what it was really about what the team principles and participants were really doing again what as far as they were concerned the DIA was concerned um it was about a future projection of um you know weapons threats when in fact it was really about uh paranormal skin walker/ UFO phenomena but um this is from the aroh historical review that little quote there um volume one of the historical review and yeah so it was terminated in 2012 uh and the the deliverables uh that we definitely know about or that we can actually access are the DDS so 37 of those but there are a bunch of other deliverables that may or may not have actually been delivered to DIA um and they still haven't been issued to the public for inspection so those include various uh monthly reports a really large 10-month report which is almost 500 pages long which was read apparently by Tim McMillan of Popular Mechanics he was able to actually take some photos and give some details but he didn't actually obtain a copy so he couldn't show its entire contents this is actually a sort of interesting a recurring theme in euphology where uh researchers or historians are allowed to sort of take a look at a document but they can't keep it and they can just take a few notes so that's a kind of interesting Trope there that has recurred here as well this is a breakdown of Dia's uh the AAP program uh actual versus projected so um fiscal year contract term base option year appropriation and um some of this was not funded or executed and the DS that were produced so here you got 37 and then the other 11 DS one of the 30 one of the 38 DS was classified but we've got 37 unclassified DDS okay U management so it was U managed by latsky as director and kellerer um as well latsky served under the orices of Dia and Kela did so for Bass and um he served as a Deputy Administrator at Bass so other another known person uh Personnel a person was John Stratton who would also come to feature prominently in the US government UFO slap Saga later on um many confusions and contradictions bound so alono has obviously tried to St um claim his place in the organization um you know the 2017 New York Times article claimed that atip was run by him but atip was just a nickname for all app although aland did apparently run some sort of more private restricted effort later on which assume the name of ATP we call that ATP too later on I'll get to that but um he may have been our chief of Counter Intelligence and security for the program so he may have had some role but it's still not for sure what he really did um and he also wrote a DOD uh a complaint letter to the dod Inspector General okay so he was saying that he was uh was the head or the director for ATP and orap so there you can see at the bottom there and orap so that's not what he says in one of his tweets Twitter uh X right one of the posts on that uh on that Forum he said that he has nothing to do or had nothing to do with orap so he's contradicted himself a number of times regarding his role with orap and um this has been um really investigated a lot by Steven Green Street of the New York Post and you can check out his articles and videos um to do with alzando uh funding so there it talks about the funding um so it's $22 million all up but there still a little bit of a question about how much of it was of that $22 million was actually dispersed how it was used you know what programs got what um because it can't be that the dirs got most of the stuff uh most of the money I mean they did a lot of other stuff beyond the dirs but that has not been released to the public yeah and and maybe also just another thing about funding um it's also possible that Bigalow provided some of his own money towards the end as a kind of Sho string budget uh but anyway it's still this still some things which are not known and and those documents which I mentioned which have not been released uh they are still at some facility at Bass um probably at bass not at DIA but if a Dia does know about stuff then it behooves them to release it to the public as a you know public Goodwill measure deliverables so we have the DS um one of them is classified one of those 38 DS is classified but it's a classified version of a released DD so these DS were written by various contracted scientists um some of them may not have known the true purpose of orap so there are some UFO adjacent people who wrote some of the DS but other ones may not have kind of caught on and apparently Dia didn't catch on either even though it should have I think there were enough clues in things that big was saying to the media um that Dia should have caught on to that but it could also be that Dia doesn't have enough UFO Savvy people who kind of know the terminology or the Mythos and the history of the topic to kind of have caught on to what it was really about so but any in any case they may have been embarrassed by their oversight um there are some ethical questions as well about the deliverables so you know Dia may not have received everything it was meant to receive and yet it was you know this was a funded program using taxpayer money so we asked questions there about the ethics um there we say um massive Holdings of the original analysts journals data and photos remained in storage in other words these paid for assets were apparently never submitted to DIA is this ethical uh in the follow-up book that they write uh the authors write about the massive body of scientific papers and documents the program produced which have mostly not been made public the bulk of what the study produced has not been unveiled even now not even Congress has been able to access the vast data warehouse of the more than 100 papers produced by bass so you know taxpayers should really demand to know what happened to this output all right um now we get on to a tip two which was Alonzo's effort and we call it a tip to he didn't call it that he tried to sort of fold them into each other so that when you talk about one you're talking about the other and to kind of maintain his proximity in the public eye to that program but in fact this was not AAP this is a more restricted and private effort by him possibly networking with some people who had been involved in AAP but this was uh apparently looking more specifically into military um sightings by personnel and pilots and uh it it was not funded officially so it didn't have any budget uh items um anything like that because it was just Al's kind of private initiative he had another job um that he was doing you know to get paid but this wasn't the same thing as that so this was just kind of his own private project we don't know really what the deliverables were um okay the nature so it's officially it was officially non-existent after the unofficially extended orap definitely definitively ended in 2012 alzando followed an unofficial UAP effort of his own at the OSD um appropriate appropriating the title or uh ATP which was the aap's nickname okay so uh there's again a lot of murkiness about who knew what and um you know his relations to various officials and people in orap um and also yeah so it just it just gets really confusing I think probably by Design uh because he said things which just blatantly contradict each other so I don't think it's a mistake on his part that a lot of this stuff is very uh confused so object Ive so Pentagon program it's also been called a project um but it wasn't an official Pentagon program it might have been situated at the Pentagon but he was doing it in his own in his own spare time and it had much less scope than orap so it was more about keeping tabs on Military sourced UFO sightings not all the other Skinwalker and paranormal stuff although alandre does lean into that stuff a little bit um in his public pronouncements um this version of a tip was apparently not focused on that stuff so aland had formed a formal working group with other members of the intelligence Community here it says formal um it wasn't a formal program but he I think this is a quote by him but you know again um more of the confusion there about its exact status so it was set up to discuss and assess UAP activity uh where whether this working group was itself properly speaking part of atip 2 or whether it was a network of former orap insiders and others uh that was now being utilized by Alexandre to support an individual effort uh that can be termed ATP to this may be a tedious point of Distinction but it still is another example of ambiguity uh in The Saga secrecy so latsky defined the this a tip2 as a classified Endeavor um this loose unfunded Endeavor variously referred to as a program or activity was kept from the American public until alzando gloomily quit the Pentagon in 2017 and started talking Non-Stop about it to the present day and it was located um at the Pentagon um at the yeah the office of the under secretary of defense for intelligence timing so it was created years later than orap which was again established in 2008 and the atip acronym was adopted uh much later than orap atip was of course already in use as a nickname for orap so we we really belabor that point just to draw the distinction between the proper a tip versus elizondo's ATP um all indications are that the uh this informal group group if it was really a group with this informal initiative by alesandro existed in some form from 2012 to 2017 um part of that portfolio if we can call it that but maybe the findings from this unofficial effort were handed off and then they become became the basis for other investigations like um the UAP task force which also had kind of an unofficial and an official VAR uh variance and also the AO MSG which is a precursor for Arrow so there could have been some transfer of data between these different efforts or management so aland was the head if you want to call him the head um so we again we don't really know who was involved um could have been like an informal network of people that he had uh formed uh with during orap but again we don't really fully know what he did at orap proper but still it could have utilized that um network of people and uh trying to find like different people yeah aoi MSG thanks Steve long these people who were kind of experts in different fields and different agencies like Navy CIA Etc he could have brought them together they could have had some discussions about UFOs trying to figure out what the pilots and others had seen and things like that um there was apparently a d Shar Drive known as y project on the jwx that's the joint worldwide intelligence communication system which is the dod secure internet system so there's apparently some data that was stored there but that hasn't been released funding so New York Times article in 2017 um mistakenly linked a $22 million funding with alesandro's atip which he claimed that he led that uh money was meant for orap of course um so nothing went to atip in other words a tip 2 despite widespread statements over the last several years um alzando himself has said very slim resources um he's given various presentations as well where he's given some details which have sometimes contradicted each other um but definitely almost certainly ATP 2 was not funded and it was a very restricted effort compared to orap this is a summary of the US UAP programs from 2008 to the present and it shows the the name the period the status and the organization uh so leadership as well so orap and ATP they occupy two rows there so September 2008 to December 2010 and then December 2010 to August 2012 so these were official and funded laty was the leader the head um under the orices of Dia a tip two what we call Alexander's unofficial followon project so this is un uh August 2012 to probably August 2017 Circa those dates um unofficial unfunded uh bed at the Pentagon or I shouldn't even say B it was just like aland doing his own thing but he was at the Pentagon at the time possibly Stratton John Stratton was actually the leader of that initiative but we don't know for sure there are some rumors here and there um and stepen Green Street has talked about those but for now we don't really think there's much to those rumors but we could be wrong so maybe I mean we should keep tabs on that situation um the UAP portfolio um so September 2017 to December 2017 official funded and this was under the offices of uh Tipton at the Pentagon and then that evolved into the UAP PF the first instantiation of that program that was at the US Navy's uh Office of Naval intelligence John Stratton was the head and then we have the other uh version where it was Ed at the Oni and the USD again Straton was the head the AO MSG uh which went on till July 2022 uh USD Cummings and um what was it Matthew Cummings and also Shan Kirkpatrick who would later on become the head of Arrow and um he was just there at the oim AO IM MSG for a short time I think the last couple so months of its existence before it became Arrow he then went on to become the director of Arrow so this is still going on to the present day this organization it recently put out a very large report and it's going to do volume two very soon as well about the US government's historical involvement with the UFO subject and also um claims about uh coverups of alien technology or the aliens themselves yeah so uh Phillips is now the head of that or the acting director I should say um Kirk Patrick now works for one of the National Laboratories um but he still has some interest in the UAP topic but he's gone on to other things all right now we also mention here in this kind of more historical section that the UAP phenomenon is just a minor part of the UFO phenomena so this is a broader term it's more encompassing and it includes like all the scare waves in the past actually stretching back to several centuries so if you think about you know things which are not known about or unexplained in the sky people have attributed that to various causes Through the Ages and of course more recently like in the past Century to extraterrestrials because that's the thing that is on people's minds in the space age but if you you were to go back you would encounter Airship stories or um immediately before the ET hypothesis really took off it was more to do with like the possibility that the Soviets were flying experimental aircraft over America um but there are certain themes and dynamics that remain consistent throughout all of this history which is to do with how the media interacts with a topic and spreads these stories there's a psychosocial aspect as well well where people kind of fit in the the motifs that they care about onto those phenomena that they see and can't explain um so you get these waves or these flaps of these um sorts of um sightings and they get reported and spread and then they get interpreted through a v various so um socioeconomic uh lenses that's a little table which is just summarizing some of those scare waves and flaps so you got the first rockets and Scandinavia in the mid 1940s so immediately after World War II um food Fighters during World War II and similar things and um those were reported in Europe but also some in other parts of the world uh mystery airplanes Phantom Flyers mystery airships okay and as airships were being used more and more um Phantom balloon scares uh Phantom airships uh balloon scares mystery visitors and balloon fear and um another great fear in France so if you look at those cases you'll find a lot of similarities to more recent UFO flaps we argue that that's the underlying connection is not some mysterious paranormal cause or causes it's actually human psychology and social dynamics so in that sense there is a UFO phenomenon or phenomena but it's got nothing to do with paranormal or alien visitors all right let's go to the next one um so UFO related legislative Provisions for fiscal year 2024 this is a really kind of tedious section um I mean I still encourage people to read it but it's probably it was the most difficult part to write because there's so much uh bureaucratic jargon and terminology uh you kind of have to sift through it we got a lot of help with this from Douglas Johnson Douglas Dean Johnson and and other people who are kind of experts on the legislative aspect so the fiscal year uh 2024 ndaa which spells out how America is going to spend its money on defense and intelligence um programs and it did allocate some money and um interest to the UAP topic so that's become a very important media item as well it's been used to sort of inflate the UFO topic to the level of uh true credibility because now the government is taking it seriously and and yeah so that's become a huge thing that people have talked about and there's some legislators who really want to push with this um even further and other ones who want to hold back a little bit because they're concerned that some of the information that gets Declassified may be of genuine National Security concern so you don't want to declassify everything hastily you want to really be careful about that of course some people take that to mean that the government wants to continue the so-call coverup of ET existence okay let's go on so this is a um table summarizing some of those Provisions so ndaa for fiscal year 2024 the division within the document it's just a very small part of the overall document because the rest is about you know censor systems electronic warfare missile development blah blah blah all the stuff that you would expect the US Military and IC to request money for but there's a small part which is dedicated to UAP and these are the subtitles there for that now we do have a word or two to say about the so-called UAP whistleblowers so um David grush obviously has been the most famous one but there's been another guy I forget his name but um there's another person as well now now there's also David fraver and Ryan Graves who were um Navy pilots and they had reported their own UAP sightings or encounters or or being at least told by other aviators that they had seen stuff so they they also gave testimony but then you had David grush as the sort of icing on the cake or at least many people thought of him as that because he was uh supposedly spilling the beans about all these um secret programs which were illegally covering up alien technology from the American public and all that sort of stuff now David grush has never said that he himself saw any aliens or spacecraft he was only told by people who had worked in such programs or claim to him that they had done that so there's already you know many problems with his story and the his so-called sources um we've gone into that in other places um or I have in a video of mine and you know other people have as well but there's many problems there so basically it's all hearsay um and rumor uh maybe even manipulation of grush and others um for whatever reason so there are many reasons that you know there could be this sort of Mythos which develops within the IC in the military where secrecy and compartmentalization are very common and on the margins or the periphery of those programs you may get uh people who hear certain things about secret projects maybe those projects have got kind of cosmic oriented names and then that adds to the mystery and the Intrigue and then they start to think maybe this is actually alien technology that's being covered up so that could be happening there's various programs um which have got kind of cosmic connotations or have to do with spacecraft retrievals and things like that so so you know all all of that could be going on um people as well who have had very illustrious careers within the government they could feel that they didn't get enough from their experience or they were not at the level that they wanted to be and so they have a sort of regret about not being able to reach that level and perhaps um to assuage their their disappointment they kind of concoct or they start to believe stories about ET to you know kind of make their own role or their social uh status more prominent so the assessment of the book under review namely skin walker at the Pentagon we do mention that it's got some good things and some not so good things so it does clear up some confusions it does add some interesting caveats and details about the program and and you know the people involved what they did but the conclusions that they draw from it are completely in our view Fantastical so they really credit all this paranormal stuff they really do see a link between Skinwalker and UFOs and between UFOs and Consciousness in a sort of metaphysical or paranormal sense whereas we would argue that it's a psychosocial um Dynamic going going on within society and is mediated by the media so we also lament that the study of U was not handled scientifically in this uh project in this program that was a missed opportunity and also that their methodology was at times not scientifically sound because they basically took many UFO encounters and reports as Bonafide examples of uh Alien or paranormal uh visitations or encounters so when you have those sorts of commitments going in that can really contaminate the results because you're not being careful about the difference between what's real and what's imagined to be real okay so it's sort of like a circular logic or circular argument that they use which is that they assume what they're trying to prove they're going into it with a paranormal commitment view to the Future so some of the things which could uh you know into the future what could be done and some of the possible things would which will happen so we expect that there's going to be some more interest in this topic but that at some point the bubble's going to burst and um a lot of the people who are pushing the UFO narrative are going to kind of pull back from it to avoid embarrassment but there will still be a lot of people including in Academia and the scientific Community who will see the government's um promotion or acceptance let's say of UFOs as a kind of green light to look more into this topic and maybe even to credit some of the more esoteric explanations so um there's you know past UFO efforts like naikap and others um they also had some good and bad points to them and uh the the current ones going to have more advanced technology and more resources but doesn't mean that they're going to be more scientific all right we uh have acknowledgements here so various people we want to thank uh for comments and suggestions and Corrections and um green uh obviously Steven Green Street who's done a lot of work on the AAP and ATP story and also John Greenwald who has um got this excellent site The Black Vault which he's been maintaining for decades and uh has uncovered a lot of very valuable information through foyer he does kind of credit the ET hypothesis uh but you know he still is pretty objective I think in terms of um evaluating the value of certain documents or claims so he's actually debunked a lot of nonsense and pseudoscience out there even though we don't fully credit his his take and finally um we end with a cast of characters here so this table kind of summarizing who is involved in the Saga and the um various programs that they were involved with so you can see there on the far left SRI um Stanford Research Institute and that was involved with um CIA psychic research back in the 70s so some people who are now involved with the UFO Saga were involved back then as well um the ATP the advanced theoretical physics project this was actually run by John B Alexander this was an informal effort and it should not be confused with atip by the way completely different and it ended way before ATP but this is like an informal effort by various people within the IC and the military to try to find out whether there was some secret knowledge of the US government of ETS and UFOs they came to the conclusion that there probably wasn't even though Alexander himself does have some paranormal beliefs and you know credits the skin stuff as well um then you've got nids which is set up by Bigalow so the National Institute for Discovery Science so they they were very interested in Consciousness and UFOs they put out some good stuff and some not so good stuff and then you had Bas which was set up to administer or to fulfill the requirements of the solicitation for orap of course they went on to do their own thing within that uh things which veed wildly from what the solicitation said uh orap and ATP itself uh situated within Dia a tip 2 which was alesandro's effort um ttsa which was a initiative by Tom Delong uh famous um Blink 182 Rock um band member who's very interested in UFOs he um cooperated with some people in the UFO scene um including alzando uh UAP portfolio and then the UAP TF there's two versions within the US Navy the aoi MSG and then arrow and um this other one on the far left there the uh that that's some sort of yeah with uh Ryan Graves so he set that up as a kind of um aerial safety and knowledge database for UAP now one more thing I want to say about the paper uh Jack safti who was a um Cornell physicist and um very strong believer in u the ET hypothesis he tries to use physics to try to prove that um ETS are actually using kind of quantum phenomena to induce like high high strangeness effects that that explains kind of time dilation and other things um discrepancies Within UFO reports by Witnesses we think that um that's like completely off the mark because there's the psychosocial hypothesis um and we think it's just psychology and cognitive science anthropology social science are going to explain this and and some are normalist um atmospheric phenomena okay and sightings which are just misidentified whereas he's trying to use um physics uh to try to prove that ETS are actually coming here and linking it to Quantum Mechanics so the problem there is that you know you're assuming your own conclusions again just like with orap um they're committed to the most exotic explanations and so their databases are going to become very contaminated by that anyway but saati has um you know issued critiques by email to myself and to the sent Juan trying to basically trash the paper because of some things we supposedly get wrong we did actually get one thing wrong that he corrected which is that um John B Alexander did not have a PhD in physics he actually has got a PhD in education um but we think that the reason we initially thought it was physics it's just a false memory because Alexander is interested in physics and he's got a PhD so we probably just conflated those two we didn't really look too much into that until you know safti correct it so thanks to him for doing that but we think that the rest of his critique is not on the mark anyway back to you Rachel