APEC 8/28, Part #5 - Glen "Tony" Robertson - NASA Superconductor Gravity Team Q&A

Transcript

uh well tony do you want to go to q a uh does does anyone have questions if you're open to it yeah oh okay um yeah and actually i i had uh someone before the conference and i i forgot who had asked let me scroll down the list and see if he's still here uh i i think it was william schramm um william you had some questions about superconductors before the conference right hey let me bring the video online uh yeah so my my questions were really um can this physics be evaluated uh with gen 1 superconductors is is it possible to use niobium instead of utrim barium copper oxide i don't know that anybody can answer that because no experiments have been done even on the ybco you know no one has really ever repeated what the kletnov did anybody who claims they have are lying or stretching the truth a little bit i can't speak to what might have happened in in projects that were un or classified but i really don't think anything was done there either but um uh it's hard to say if if you read my uh paper in my in that gravity book that we did then i i i tell you why a super doctor could create a gravity wave but and any it could be any super nectar doesn't necessarily have to be well i'll take that back it probably has to be a type 2 superconductor and the reason for that because of the flux pinning that goes through the superconductor those those pinning sites are actually uh they're more super conductive actually than supernatural itself in fact electrons can move through these pinning sites faster than the speed of light theoretically so it may need to be a type 2 superconductor for this effect to occur okay and then the following question to that is well what vendor do we go to for a disk like this or do we have to make it ourselves the last time i looked there wasn't hardly any ybco superconductor manufacturers in the u.s they were all over europe but it's not hard to make a ybc old superconductor and in fact i i came up with a formula for making the superconnectors from the powders that was different than what you read online uh read about in in another literature because the barium oxide the first bottle of barium oxide i bought i opened the thing up and began choking immediately because that barium oxide wants to turn to barium uh turn into a hydrate so it sucks the oxygen out of your nose and everything so i immediately said i'm not using that and so i went and started using the bear hydrates see it's a different formula but it came out very well uh use that in fact you could once you do use the hydrates you can actually mix it with water where if you took the i took some barium oxide and put it in a glass beaker and poured water in there and it almost melted the durian glass glass at the bottom because it the heat it created from absorbing the water and turning into the hydrate was so hot uh so but anyway making it's not hard i can do it at home i can get a little furnace here i've made the supernatural powder here at home okay yeah now so if i could jump in really quick um william one of the things that i mentioned to you and this goes back to before the call because you were asking about superconductors then uh tony as i recall but i might be mistaken but hadn't you said that there was a a skin that the crystal inside of the the bulk of the superconductor is different than the crystal along the skin and there was something about if i remember right there was something about the construction process that made that skin more important well because off supposedly the two layer where where the bottom layer was uh was not super inductive at the 77 degrees of the liquid uh the liquid nitrogen where the top where it was it was what was the box so if you dope the uh bottom layer with uh say ybco instead of the atrium with the y dope it would like uh presidential or something then it drops the uh subnetting temperature lower than the 77 kelvin and then the top layer would be ybco but then he then they it was supposedly melt textured where they actually put little seeds of a different type of superconductor on it usually where they're getting replaced with samarium i guess on top and then they what they did uh the melt grows and so that crystallization should form across not only the ybco top layer but also the non-super second layer so so the crystal grows through the whole body was not just not just centered superconductor but a crystallized superconductor and and that can be important because in the in this crystal it acts the crystal forms layers of these joseon junctions throughout this crystal growth and i think the white those uh joseon junctions are important to get the rapid electron motion to the superconductor awesome thank you uh william did you have any other questions sir uh i guess my my question was my experience is working with a german vendor on wire and so they actually strained the wire in order to create the crystal boundaries uh is there any research into when you're making a disc uh manipulating it in a way that creates those crystals well the only thing i know about crystal growth is that milk texture crystal growth i mean this was back in you know in the night uh late 1990s there should have been a lot more research done since then um and the way they're doing everything but as far as the experiment clintonoff did you know it was just simple ybco melt textured with two with two layers that one superconductive at 77 and one knot so okay great thank you wonderful thank you william uh gary let me go to you next sir sure yeah i was wondering tony if you've had any contact at all with george hathaway my understanding was he was trying to replicate the same experiment a number of years ago in canada well i don't think he did the rotating one but he did attempt the impulse one and it's my understanding that the disc he used for the impulse was not too layered uh it was not the i don't know if it was the same size or not but well it's been a long time ago so i don't but what i remember is that he did he didn't do the experiment to the degree that the clinton off did it he never did this huh to your knowledge you never tried to replicate the spinning superconductor no i'm making a 12 inch super disc is quite difficult in which we learned and making it two layer is even more difficult and then try and then putting it in the furnace and doing it we never got to the melt tech street we never got the two two layers the the group down to the sbir did uh but we never did and so making something that large that comes out of furnace it's not cracked it's just a miracle george never got that far no uh but he did do a version of the impulse experiment and didn't see anything but i don't believe the super connecting disc was the same as that that knock reported using okay thanks okay thanks gary let me go to harold next sir yes tony thank you for that explanation that clears up a lot of things because i know that english got a lot of publicity but you make a lot of things clear now and my question for you is this that that experiment that lingling was supposed to do if it would have been you'd have to do it how would you have done it and the other part of the question is do you have a theory a proportion theory on how to use a superconductor to create for example artificial gravity gravity waves or a proportion system what what are your thoughts on that you're asking a lot of questions that i don't think i can answer in this time frame but first off the experiment that everybody says it was ning lee's was not ning lee's it was nasa's marshall space flight center she was part of that team in fact like i said the experiment she brought to marshall space flight center wasn't even her experiment it was robert becker's experiment and actually a uah student who did it as a thesis project so when people say it's her experiment it wasn't she was just part of the team to do this she was tasked basically uh in the first part in the in a senator krishna fund products which which i support uh support her on that she didn't do much of anything i i did most all of that stuff and then when we went to the pclandoff experiment she was just tasked to make to actually take the disc we pressed for her at marshall with using the disc that we bought under the project and she took those deaths back to the uah and fired those discs and then she was supposed to give those discs to us so we could analyze it using uh you know nasa's expensive technology they had there and see what the structure was and so we can determine if we were actually making something correctly but she would not give us anything she fired so so we couldn't do anything we you know money ran out we didn't have this for her we made some ourselves and played and stuff but we never could like i said once that team was formed there was no accountability you had five people going in five different directions and with no clear path from where we were going and so that just failed and and then they the the the sbr one had a clear path but they got so focused on spending their money getting off and and then and then they like i said they bought a 60 000 doer that was just terrible and they wasted a lot of money and couldn't finish the project they helped clinton off out but they didn't help us out so but as far as the theory i've sent you my papers but uh on a theory but that one doesn't really talk about superconductors but if you read my paper that's in my in that supernatural gravity book it tells you why a super director could give you a a gravitational wave uh what else did you asked oh you actually um harold if it's okay let me jump in really quick tony can i can i put your book up on the screen can you tell me what the title of your book is yeah super nectar um oh crap i don't remember what the title is myself um gravity interactions so conductive gravity interaction something like that available in amazon yeah i can send you ah here we here we go okay and let me see and you you know what i will do uh it okay give me two seconds i will share the i'll share my screen again and my apologies for for jumping in and distracting um okay so here it is i will paste this into chat but for anybody who's watching this in in replay or can't see it it's super conductor gravity interactions published february 12 2018 i will maximize that there they were supposed to send me money when they sold this i haven't made a dime off of it this was published in 2012. yeah so so that is up here i found it on amazon and uh let me see the authors are giovanni modernise and and then of course glenn a robertson so okay and again my apologies for disrupting things uh harold did you have any more questions or should we go to jeremy next hey thank you for the explanation that clears up a lot of things okay wonderful well thank you as well harold uh jeremy would you like to go sir i'm having issues with my stream uh microphone so people might not be able to hear me live on youtube um unfortunately um i had a question um just about these uh so apparently the size of the superconductor disc was the issue like making them that large and apparently they they would crack or other things would uh happen when you try to make them that large is there any processing or any special techniques that we should know if we're trying to build a large diameter disc to reproduce this experiment accurately the uh pressure that you have to press these two like 20 000 pounds per square inch so we were using like a um a million ton press that nasa had to that actually were used to test some piece of launch system for the shuttle and a lot if you don't press it to this then it's it's it's not as it's not as dense when you put it in the furnace so it wants to shrink and and and so when it shrinks it cracks a lot of even a lot of the smaller ones i made rather than being flat on both surface would be curved on the top because the heat would be hot around the outside so it would harden first on the outside and then sink in the middle on the smaller one so pressing it is a key issue and the press that big is not available to everybody okay um okay jeremy thank you i think actually i think jeremy just dropped off the call let me go we'll probably try and do two more questions if that's okay let me go to michael boyd next michael sir hey um so i have a couple of questions um one one one is the uh uh i'm curious you you talk about pressing it and my my uh understanding is um there should there should be a relationship between the amount of pressure that's put on the superconductor and and the uh properties of superconductivity uh i think there's been some recent uh research where they've they've actually got achieved like room temperature super conductivity but only under high pressure um do you have any thoughts on on that and then yeah the other thing i'm curious about is my as far as it relates to gravity tape the gravitational field my understanding has superconductivity the way it works is it's a it's kind of like anti-ferromagnetic so it's all right it's only on the outside of the the superconductor it's a surface phenomena nothing in the mag there's there's basically no magnetic field inside the superconductors i'm just curious what your thoughts are about that there's two different types of superconductors one's a type one which exhibits the meissner effects and excludes all magnetic fields and then there's a type 2 which is what the ybco is that actually pins the fields inside of it in fact you can take a type 2 uh superconductor and cool it under a magnetic field and and then uh take the the field away and they'll still act like a permanent magnet even though it's just kind of like a magnetic dielectric you know how like with a with the capacitor if you have like a dielectric material you can charge it up and move it around and like plug it in yeah you can it's kind of like that i actually did experiments where i i pinned the fields in the super conductor and then mapped the field that was on top of uh inside the super conductor i actually did those experiments to show that and uh this pressure you're talking about it sounds like what you're talking about is not a pressure to press the material into making that but to the pressure in a chamber where they're testing it in the chamber it's in a pressure pressure physical pressure during the the when you're measuring the superconductivity right yeah that's two different things though okay okay thank you wonderful okay well let's so let's go to william schramm and then after that we'll wrap up questions um but so william why don't you go ahead sir and then after that we'll go to mark just one more question uh so instead of a disc um could you could you just replicated this using a loop of wire if if you could anneal a length of wire to make the loop instead of a a slice of a cylinder um would that generate the same effects or does it have to be a three-dimensional have some depth to that plane well according to the paper i wrote that's in the book it'd have to be a solid disc because it because the because from my perspective of the paper is that you have to have these josephson junctions that's what in what's important because because the electrons can move across these junctions at very fast speeds and in a wire you wouldn't have that and the currents you would be putting in that if you're talking about a wire going totally different directions so but it's not to say when wouldn't show some kind of effect i just don't know okay wonderful okay so let me go to steve lutz really quick and and then after that and again my apologies i'm trying to juggle time here a little bit um steve why don't you go for it and then after that we'll go to mark sokol yeah sure i just have two questions one um do you know who the program director was for this uh this sbr uh for for the sbir ron kozar from nasa was the one who initiated it so i would say he was the uh he was the nasa manager part but uh the sbr program itself has a manager at a headquarters right so so uh who was actually in control i you know i i couldn't tell you yeah yeah that's a lot of these programs it's uh yeah the money goes out the door right uh so you were peripherally involved like in a support capacity or directly involved with this whole thing that we're doing here when england came to marshall i i was uh i i i was the one who wrote all the proposals for for going to the nasa management but i wasn't uh at that time wasn't it uh part of preliminary design i was still in the propulsion lab at that time so uh um um joe howe was actually the guy put on as a pi okay for those uh census christian funds but i'm the one that actually wrote the proposals and did most of the work i don't uh joe howe was the one who found the manufacturer for the for the uh yvco yeah yeah and i started my career as a specs writer and the proposal writer so i know exactly what you're talking about you're just cranking paper right but but uh but by the time i moved to preliminary design uh we had already formed this team and gave basically the lead to the science directorate and once that happened like i said it was just five people going in five different directions right so no edr no engineering design review kind of thing it was just sort of go for it right if there was any uh if if it was if there was anybody reporting to management they didn't invite me i'm in the same club i never got invited to like once or twice you know they said shut up and don't talk you know but we spent so much money on it that no one wanted to ask for any more to continue going it's embarrassing right because you blow out that money and no results and you know then it's the playing game right yeah we used to have the wall of blame and the wall of shame you know you know the pictures of the people so my other question is this the ybco are you privy to like the crystallinity of it i mean the manufacturing process was it would they would they cook it slow and then hydraulic press it you know was it polycrystalline was it was it high order poly was it near mono you know do you know any of that stuff um i know how to make the superconductor i know how to press it and know how to melt texture i've done all of that the disc at kletnov actually had from my understanding he did not make the disc he he borrowed it from somebody else right he made this and literally didn't know much about the disc at all that's the reason why when they went to the svr and hired him he kept having them do this and that and then was wasting a lot of money for him basically to learn how to make a disc for himself uh so but the disc basically it making the powder is you just take the raw materials you mix them dead in the right in your furnace there's a heat profile you go through and then it comes out and it's and it's centered a bit you have to crunch that up into a powder then you take that powder put it into your die press it like i said the twenty thousand pounds per square square inch and then you take it out you die and you take that and put it in your in your furnace and and heat it through a temperature profile and if you want to melt texture you if you have to go redo that with these little seeds of a different type of super conductor on it so correct crystalline growth and the crystal growth is uh is actually an eight-sided hexa hexa yeah it's hexagonal that's correct exactly and it starts out like a pyramid and goes down through the to the materials yeah you know and one of the things you got to do is mill it for like a day or two right so when you get the powders and everything you're going to mix and mix and mix them just keep it going yeah that's the way you normally do it but that's not the way i did it i i just grinded it up to look like a nice powder shifted to some sieves and when i got enough that went through the sieves it looked okay i you know you i forget what size but very small grain says right i think i think it's uh micrometers that you had to take it yes you get these micrometer crystals and then you grow it low and slow in the in the centering yeah it's it takes days if you do the uh that's right put it under oxygen to oxygenate it can take you a week a week long to do that yeah so what i've seen is that if you can get the crystallinity up instead of fall like polycrystalline if you can get the crystallinity to be more organized you can get some more interesting effects out of the material and and spinning is not a thing it's not i i know pod platinum thought it was a thing you know spinning is critical it's actually turns out not to be the case i i don't think letting off was doing originally doing this experiment as a supernatural gravity experiment no from my pers from my view this is just my view of it i think he was actually trying to do an experiment to see if superconductors could be used as a a radar deterrent type of material yeah it was a military thing that's right that's the reason why he was hitting rfs is to see how the signals would come back right what happened was a professor had come in there smoking or something and that's probably that's all correct that's a little bit right here so his initial experiment was not a gravity experiment it was something totally yeah he told me directly what happened it was exactly what you say it was a military thing you know for the anti-radar low observable stuff that the guy came in smoking as you know if you work in these labs in russia and i have and in the former soviet everybody comes in smoking and drinking after hours everybody you know and they noticed the smoke drifting up and then they went upstairs and they saw it was still going on and they went up to the roof and they saw the effect was still there so in the end yeah i mean he's a metallurgist kind of guy he's a masters uh masters guy right so the guys that made the actual disc he was playing with were another group all together that knew what they were doing but i'm always fascinated and interested in the crystallinity because when i looked at something that for example claude pogaire was doing over in france with this ybco he had even worse crystallinity but he did multi-layer you know he did like 12 layers i think when i was there house in spain yeah yep yep and and some interesting effects came out of it but they're all using pulse mark's generators yeah everybody right so mark's generator they do a pulse it's 100 milliseconds or so impulse experiment they did not the rotating one yeah and polar's experiment like i said i've been to polar's house in spain i saw his experiment there and he basically was just making a big arc in liquid nitrogen that was blowing the liquid nitrogen around and some guys at marshall actually repeated the experiment and that's the same conclusion they did and uh that was conclusion i i came out of out of polar's house with is that it was just an arcing effect right right my thinking is that a sustained dc with an ac ripple at uh and the ac ripple being at a high frequency perhaps terahertz range something like that might yield some i don't know interesting results if we were to try it yeah terahertz is an interesting uh range to be in and it's just relatively new as far as uh being able to do that so uh you can get the terahertz generators right now i looked it up but it's just a handful they're very expensive and you get on that you know you have to know what you want you know you talk to the manufacturer you say i want i want something that does this and they said they give it to you but i say if you want oh i want something in a range well no no no we can't do that it's still relatively new technology they were developing it uh years ago i was reading articles where they're trying to develop terahertz uh sensors for to penetrate the ground to find tunnels yeah i was looking at indium phosphide as a possible candidate to do that but again you know i talked to a manufacturer about it and they're like yeah we're doing it for high speed switching that's it you know where's the money right all right thanks i appreciate appreciate your uh answers okay thanks steve um so let me let me see mark are you ready or let me ask mark um yeah so i'm trying uh i have a little surprise for you guys here i'm trying a replication well let me if we should we should say thank you to tony first and i actually apologize for that thank you okay so let me do that then let me do that and we will come right back to you sir and again my okay so what i'm going to do is before we do anything else let me go to gallery view and everyone please put your hands together and give tony an enormous hand thank you tony thank you very much i it's it's wonderful to have the historical insights into the past research that's been done and actually i'm really excited um so let me let me put and i should apologize we kind of ran out of time there let me put the hands down there and