Implications of UFO Phenomena with Jacques Vallée

Transcript

One of the contributions that I can make is trying to develop to to help develop new methodology to deal with this phenomenon. This is not we don't know where the phenomenon belongs. We don't know if it should be part of psychology or part of physics or part of nature or astronomy. Um we need to develop a it takes a while for science to develop new disciplines around phenomena that don't fit. Keep watching to learn more.

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Now available on Amazon. >> You can now download all eight copies of the new thinking aloud magazine for free or order beautiful printed copies. Go to new thinkingaloud.org. [music] Thinking aloud conversations on the leading edge of knowledge and discovery [music] with psychologist Jeffrey Michionlo. [music] >> [music] [music] >> Hello and welcome.

Our topic today is UFOs and my guest Dr. Jacqu Valet is an expert in this area who during the past 20 years has written numerous books on the subject including challenge to science, the edge of reality, anatomy of a phenomenon, the invisible college, messengers of deception and others. Welcome Jacques. It's a pleasure to have you. >> Thank you.

I think uh one of the interesting things to mention about you is the fact that you were the person that Steven Spielberg modeled a character of a UFO researcher on in his classic movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind. >> I think he was uh intrigued with the idea of a French scientist running around the United States investigating the UFO phenomena. >> You've been looking at this phenomenon for a long time. You've worked closely with uh Dr. Alan Heinik and other UFO researchers.

You've written many authoritative books and yet your perspective on the UFO issue seems rather unique in the sense that you don't seem to be jumping on the extraterrestrial visitors bandwagon. >> That's what uh what was the main point of disagreement with Steven Spielberg. When I met Steven Spielberg, he was about halfway through filming Close Encounters and we had a long discussion about what UFOs could be. And of course for him uh the the main point of the of the movie was entertainment and it was appropriate for the UFOs to be extraterrestrial visitors. I think that uh from my own point of view I'm going to be very disappointed if UFOs turn out to be nothing more than visitors from another planet because I think they could be something much more interesting.

>> Something uh from another dimension a space or time. Uh I think what the UFO phenomenon is teaching us is that um we don't understand time and space. Uh here are objects. I think we have to call them objects that are physical that interact with the environment that cause u effects on the witnesses on the psychology and the physiology of the witnesses and leave traces on the ground and yet are capable of appear to be capable of manipulating time and space in ways that go beyond what our physics understands today. In your books, particularly your most recent book, Messengers of Deception, which is many years old, you suggest that UFOs are deliberately trying to manipulate uh our subconscious mind to create a mythology in our culture about themselves, which is one of the reasons that they're both physical and concrete yet very elusive at the same time.

Uh do you still feel that way? I think to to answer that, I'm not trying to evade your question, but to answer that, you have to step back a little bit farther. The what we know today about the UFO phenomenon is considerably more than we knew 20 years ago or 10 years ago. >> And we have to to understand it at three different levels. And the first level is the physical level. And all we can say about UFOs at the physical level is that it's a lot of energy in a small space.

in the space of of this. If we could take the energy of a nuclear reactor and contain it within this studio, for example, you'll have something that would approximate what a UFO does, it's a lot of energy in a small space emitted through light energy and through pulsed microwave energy. >> The second level is what happens to witnesses. What would happen to you and and me if we were close to that source of energy? And again, now we we we're beginning to understand the physiological and the psychological correlations of of a close encounter. >> Yes.

>> And those have to do with a loss of the sense of space, loss of orientation. I've had witnesses tell me we were driving north when they were everybody knows they were driving south. They were disoriented at the time. Uh loss of a sense of time. people thinking that only 10 minutes went by and three hours went by.

Uh very often effects on the skin, sunburns, I think that was clo shown in close encounters, effects on the eyes going from conjunctivitis to blindness to tempor temporary blindness in some cases >> and sometimes you've mentioned people have actually been healed of diseases. There have been cases where the after a UFO close encounter uh it seems that the healing process had been sped up. Now there are known techniques now using electromagnetic radiation that will heal uh the fractures for example or will heal superficial wounds on the skin but nothing that would heal as fast as you know the reported effects. So we're beginning to understand at least the the descriptions, you know, the symptoms of of the exposure to whatever UFO is. And then there is a third level which is where I was the level I was addressing in messengers of deception which is a social level, >> the impact on our culture.

>> Yes. and the the impact on our belief systems and at that level and that's something that's very difficult to to convey to the believers in UFOs or believers in little green men from space you know that at that level it really doesn't matter whether UFOs are real or not if enough people believe that something is real then it is real in its in its effects social reality >> in terms of the social reality in terms of what people act according to their beliefs. Yeah. >> And uh that opens a question of really at two levels. Could the UFO phenomenon be manipulating us? Could it be a teaching system of some sort? Perhaps something that we are creating ourselves, perhaps a series of images that we are projecting.

I think Carl Jung came very close to to expressing that idea in one of his books. or could it be manipulated purposely by people who have the technology to uh simulate UFO sightings? And people say, well, of course not. Who would do a thing like that? Well, I would remind you that during Watergate during the Watergate investigation, it was discovered that there was a plan uh originated in the White House to uh surface a submarine off the coast of Cuba and paint the second coming of Christ over the island of Cuba using holograms. which is well within our technology today. The idea was that since there is a large Catholic population in Cuba, they would be so upset by this vision that this would saturate the communication channels, you know, the telephone system in Cuba long enough for an invasion to take place.

>> How interesting. I never heard of that. >> Well, I think that's, you know, a classic in psychological warfare, but that kind of manipulation is is well understood. And I have personally investigated several apparently genuine UFO cases where there was in fact manipul my my conclusion the conclusion of scientists working with me was that there was in fact a manipulation taking place and that it was not a hoax on the part of the witnesses but a hoax on the part of somebody much better organized than >> so there are possibly all of these levels going on simultaneously >> today with the current techn technology that would be possible. Um, one of my interests, as you know, has been to look at ancient sightings, old sightings before World War II, for example, when there is really no confusion with modern technology.

>> Uh, and if people describe say 1925 or in 1825 a disc flying through the air, um, then, you know, it can only have been very, very few phenomena could have produced it. And there have been some well doumented sightings going back to the 19th century. For example, >> there was uh starting in 1896 and going into the spring of 1897, there was a remarkable wave of sightings of airships. Those were described as oval objects flying through the sky with lights on them. And of course they the people in those days could only compare it to derangeables, only compare them to airships.

And uh those objects were capable of doing all the things that UFOs do today, including taking off very quickly and making 90° turns and landing and occupants coming out of them. And if any if nothing else, I think this is part of our folk law. This is something that we should be studying as part of our folk law. >> What have you been doing since the publication of Messengers of Deception? >> Well, I've been doing really working in in two directions. uh I think that one of the contributions that I can make is trying to develop to to help develop new methodology to deal with this phenomenon.

This is not we don't know where the phenomenon belongs. We don't know if it should be part of psychology or part of physics or part of nature or astronomy. Um we need to develop a it takes a while for science to develop new disciplines around phenomena that don't fit. I think that's one of the opportunities with the UFO phenomena. So I've tried to develop methodology that would enable us to to deal with the complexity of the reports and I'm doing this uh right now using artificial intelligence techniques to develop a very simple screening model.

We we do know one thing we everybody agrees on is that 80% of all the cases reported are not UFOs and they are explainable phenomena. So if you type the data of these cases into a computer, the computer will probably screen that 80% out. >> Exactly. The not maybe not the 80%, but if you could just eliminate the 60% and put them into lower priorities, you would save a lot of time of investigators who could go after the the high strangeness cases or high priority cases. So that's what I've been doing.

As a byproduct of that, you get information on the structure of the phenomena, the structure of the knowledge about the phenomena that I think is is going to give us some insight into how to to approach it. The other thing I've been doing is personal investigations and I don't belong to any group uh or to any organization whatsoever. I'm doing this strictly on my own with a small network of friends and scientists and other investigators who help me. And uh I've been I'm fairly frequently in in Europe. I've also traveled to South America and of course within the US and I've tried to investigate cases that had not been reported to the media, >> had not been reported to UFO organizations >> to avoid possible contamination from other researchers who may have made suggestions.

>> Exactly. Or or simply the the pressures on the witnesses themselves to embellish their stories and so on. So I try to go after cases that are reported directly to me. >> Have you come up with anything new or interesting in these cases? >> Uh yes. Uh I go after cases where I have continued access to the witnesses and continued access to the site where I can go back month after month or year after year and continue to follow those cases.

>> One case that I'm especially intrigued with that I'm continuing to follow is a case of Dr. X in France. That's an interesting one because I know I interviewed you in 1973 about this very interesting case. >> Well, it's a case that goes back to 1968. Is the witness is a medical doctor of some reputation in the south of France, which is why he never wanted his name published in connection with the sighting.

So, he was referred to as Dr. X. One night, he uh saw some uh flashes of red light behind the shutters in his house. And uh so he opened the the windows and stepped out on his balcony in the middle of the night and saw two objects that appeared to merge into a single object and a beam of light went through the the balcony where he was standing. uh the uh being a scientist being a medical doctor he had made a number of observations during the sighting that enabled the investigators later to reconstruct exactly where the object had been and the apparent size of the object and the object was apparently very large.

Uh one of the interesting sequel of the of the incident is that there was a stigma or marking that developed on over his abdomen and also over the abdomen of his son. His son was 18 months old at the time. >> Um over the years that that uh area of it was like a red geometric shape over over the skin >> over over the stomach. Mhm. >> Uh this has been now filmed on recurrent years.

>> It comes back >> on the anniversary >> annual basis >> on the anniversary of that sighting. Now the >> that would be hard to explain in physiological terms I should >> uh there have been several attempts to of course he has this has been observed by his colleagues in France. Uh one of them wanted to write up a communication to the French Academy of Medicine. Uh except that couldn't be done without naming the witness and he did not want to be named. the I've spoken to several people who continue to follow a case in France and I I met him last year again.

>> Um the the markings continue to appear >> even after over 18 years >> and there is no uh this cannot be explained as psychosmatic and there is an actual change. >> Now when I interviewed you about this many many years ago, you indicated to me that Dr. Axe seemed to have acquired uh certain psychic gifts. In fact, his whole life was changed, his attitudes changed. >> That's not unusual.

Many of the when you investigate a case like this, what you find is usually a a witness who is in a state of trauma uh has been shocked into very often their their view of themselves, their view of the world around them, view of the universe has been shattered by this experience. Whether they are religious or not religious, whether they are, you know, a cop driving on a lonely road or a PhD or a bank president, I mean they go through this very shattering experience and people react, many people react with an awareness of uh abilities that they didn't know they had before. they they will tell you I don't think the the experience itself gave me that ability but it I just became aware of that there was more to life than what I thought before. >> Well now having had time to look back have these changes been well integrated into his life would you say? >> Um it's very difficult to answer that question. It's I know him I think fairly well.

um he has um certainly continued to to hold to that belief that uh there was another dimension to life. >> Uh his whole he's become almost a mystic in terms of his awareness of life and death and and the the place of man in the universe. At the same time, he has developed um a belief system that is difficult for for me to to accept in which he no longer has no critical awareness of a phenomenon anymore. >> In other words, he's accepted it totally in his life the way a mystic would accept. >> He's developed a religious attitude, >> almost a religious attitude.

And that's very difficult. I mean, I respect I have to respect that. But it makes it very difficult for a scientist to to preserve distance >> except if you look at it maybe as a as a social phenomenon as as you have in the past that this may be part of the phenomenon itself. >> Exactly. You you have to shift your point of view to to a social point.

>> How about the case for for physical evidence for UFOs? Is it getting better? This is the one thing that we often hear from NASA and from other skeptics that there really isn't a shred as they say of of physical evidence. >> Well, I brought you a a photograph that I recently was in Costa Rica looking investigating some cases and talking to investigators there. And I have not done extensive analysis yet on this photograph, but it shows um a an object. can uh have our viewers look at that. >> Uh it shows an object seen over um the ocean off the the coast of Costa Rica.

What is unusual about the photograph is that it was taken by a mapping aircraft with an excellent camera and it's shown looking down. >> Mhm. The camera was obviously pointing down and the the aircraft was flying horizontally at 3,000 meters >> which is rather low >> which is uh that altitude gives very very good detail on the terrain and on the and also on the object. Now the the one explanation that we tried to pursue was that the object might have been the the rotor of a helicopter flying underneath the aircraft >> but with >> doesn't look like that. >> It doesn't look like that.

That's but nothing else looks like that either. So that's where we are. >> I see. >> It will obviously be further analysis than this. >> And you've been to Costa Rica yourself on investigations? >> Yes.

Uh there is a in every country uh still today uh there is active well this is a phenomenon that goes through waves. go through periods of intense activity where clearly all over the world things are relatively quiet. >> But in practically every country you will find if you you have to to look for those reports but the the reports are there and the phenomenon continues to be manifested >> and France where you're from is is one of the stronger countries in this area aren't they? >> Yes. Uh what is happening though is that people are because of the the attitude of the scientific community being very negative on the the topic itself that people are just not reporting what they see anymore >> and uh so the we're losing the opportunity to to obtain good data about the phenomenon. France may be the exception because in France uh for many years there has existed a an organization called sponsor >> called Japon G which is a subset of the the French equival equivalent of NASA the CNES or French committee for space studies and they have funds and a small staff.

This is not by any means a large organization but they do have a budget to investigate UFO reports especially those coming through the police and the Jean armor in France. So the procedure is very well established. Japo has contacts with every part of the French government and receives all the sightings that >> and I understand in Brazil there was at one time some official acknowledgement of UFOs. There have been, in fact, I was in France last year at a a briefing of Jaipo and the the staff of CNS on the UFO phenomenon as seen from from the United States. >> And I was there with Professor Heinek, who since has has died unfortunately, and with a medical doctor who's with the US Air Force and has been very interested in cases like the Dr.

X case. and we we briefed we there was a very two-day exchange of views with with the people at Jao. >> Uh there is a you know a considerable amount of data that has been u gathered by by those organizations. Jaipo had been approached officially by several countries wanting to use as a model to do the same thing in their own countries countries in >> CN CN that's the the French NASA >> I see >> they are the people responsible for Arian you know for Arian pass the rocket >> oh yes >> and the people responsible for spatimage which is a new satellite for uh for exploration of the earth certainly the European space program seems to be making some drives now. >> Yes.

For a while there was a committee in the Soviet Union that was active in UFO research. I don't know what the status what the current status of that committee. >> You we're not hearing a lot from the Soviet Union. >> Uh there is active interest. There is an active as I understand it an active exchange of correspondence between the Soviet Union and France on this stuff.

I thought I heard some years ago an official pronouncement by the Brazilian government that this is an area that should be looked into. Brazil has always been uh interested in the phenomenon. There are remarkable cases in Brazil. Uh I had the opportunity to reinvestigate a case in Brazil where two people had died. >> Mhm.

>> Uh during I don't want to say as a result but coincidence with a a sighting of a UFO cited by many people over a wide area. >> Uh and I had the full cooperation of the police department in Rio. uh and the they sent they have a detective who was uh detached to continue to to study this case and to get information about that case >> in here in the United States. Are are there any trends that would distinguish us from the kind of reports you find around the world? Are they all similar? >> The reports in the US are absolutely indistinguishable from those in other parts of the world. That's one of the remarkable things about this >> you might otherwise expect cultural differences.

>> Uh there are very few there are differences in the way it is phenomenon is reported the way it is treated by the media >> in the US the media tends to polarize everything. So either you you you have to be for or against UFOs, you know, you have to be uh you have to be either you believe in them, in which case you believe in extraterrestrials, or you don't believe in them. And it's very difficult to to take a middle position to say this is a phenomenon that does exist and and we don't understand it and it may be extraterrestrial, but it's probably something else. When you talk to the witnesses in every country including the US, what they are telling you is that they have seen something that was there that was part of their reality, part of their physical reality and yet was capable of appearing out of nowhere or disappearing into disappearing instantly. And uh that's why I'm interested.

I think it's a challenge to our concept of science, to our concept of technology. Uh my business is technology. I cannot afford not to I cannot afford to ignore this phenomenon. >> Do you would anticipate then that there may be some major impact on our our culture as a result of this? >> I think even if we never understood the UFO phenomenon in the next 200 years but we only understood how they manipulate the uh pulse microwaves for example that itself would be a breakthrough in our technology if we could only duplicate what what that phenomenon does. But I haven't heard much about this pulse microwaves.

Is this a new discovery? >> Uh, it's a convergence of of work by several people looking both at the traces left on the ground, the impact on witnesses, the the sounds and the the visual effects that seem to be produced inside the brain. the the heating that is produced on on cars or metal or the ground in the vicinity of the of the object or vicinity of the phenomenon all this strongly suggest post microwave radiation in connection with with light radiation. One of the suggestions, Jacques, that you made in your book, The Invisible College, as I recall, is is that UFOs may be associated with some of the mystical or occult ideas of uh oh, hidden masters or or groups of very wise and beneficent entities that were trying to teach humanity. Um, I didn't I didn't take it that far. I suggested that first any new phenomena >> uh even you know if you go back to the 15th century when you look at electricity for example electrostatics as it was observed then but not understood has a potential of being regarded as magical.

>> Yes >> I think Arthur Clark said that any technology that we don't understand has to be magic has to be perceived as magical. paraphrasing badly what what he said clearly here is a phenomenon that is very complex and is showing abilities that we cannot duplicate with our current technology. So it immediately calls to mind magic and occultism. >> Yes, >> if it also contains the something that electrostatics and electromagnetism doesn't contain the potential of being intelligent. If it is intelligent uh then we may not be able to study it with science alone.

Science is a is a way of gaining knowledge based on uh phenomena that are not manipulated by an intelligence. If now there's an intelligence involved then it becomes much more complex >> requires a humanistic approach >> and yes it requires a much more diverse approach from many different disciplines and it may be that the people responsible for that manifestation understand the impact that the phenomenon will have on on us on our own imagination and that's one of the speculations that I proposed was that perhaps the observations of UFOs were similar to a teaching system to a but there is another way of thinking about that perhaps uh you know we're we're clearly in uh at a time of great potential crisis on earth we have a means of destroying the planet which we've never had before >> in the history of man uh it may be that there is a collective unconscious >> uh if you if you >> UFOs are ourselves perhaps or >> that that we are creating the visions we need to survive in order to transcend this crisis we have and that there are no UFOs in a in a manufactured sense >> well Jacques we're out of time now but it's really been a pleasure and this is an interesting note to end on there's so much that could be said about this topic thank you very much for being with us >> thank you for giving me the opportunity to pursue this subject >> and thank you very much for joining us also >> [music] [music] >> New Thinking Aloud is presented by the California Institute for Human Science, a fully accredited university offering distant learning graduate degrees that focus on mind, body, and spirit. the topics that we cover here. We are particularly excited to announce new degrees emphasizing parasychology and the paranormal. Visit their website at cihs.edu.

You can now download all eight copies of the New Thinking Aloud magazine for free or order printed copies. Go to newthinkingaloud.org. Book four in the new thinking aloud dialogue series is Charles T. Tart, 70 years of exploring consciousness and parasychology. Now available on Amazon.

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