Reality Check: UFO hunter confessions & UFO whistleblowers | Backscroll
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He was a Pentagon insider, a veteran, an investigator, and today he's quite possibly the most important voice in the modern UFO movement. >> I'm doing nothing more than finishing a job I was given. >> Lou Alzando risking his career, his family, and possibly his life to tell the story of what the American government really knows about alien craft. And it's responsive and reactive. Alien life.
There's zero information to suggest what they are doing is for benevolent reasons. >> And the people in the Pentagon are trying to hide the truth from you. There are forces, powerful forces, that don't want this story told. >> And they'll go to great lengths to keep it a secret. If aliens exist, where do they come from? >> You know, people always say, well, these things are clearly from outer space.
And I said, let's hold off on that. What have they done to people? >> Some of these people were very seriously injured. And what do they want? >> Hopefully, they're not like us. >> Tonight, you'll hear the jaw-dropping revelations. >> I'm not saying it doesn't sound crazy.
What I'm saying is to real >> Lou Alzando. Confessions of a UFO hunter. >> Unidentified anomalous phenomenon. >> Making more information public when it comes to unidentified anomalous phenomenon. this object and mysterious ring that appeared over the skies of Oklahoma earlier this month.
>> Unless you've been asleep for the past seven years, you probably noticed our species is living through a UFO renaissance. Headlines, television specials, incident reports, and even congressional hearings into what are now called UAPs, unidentified anomalous phenomena. We have things flying over military installations and no one knows what it is. >> There are many people responsible for this resurgence of interest. But perhaps no one has played a bigger role than a musclebound man with tattoos, a soul patch, and one hell of a story to tell.
He's Lou Alzando, former Pentagon UFO investigator. And he's telling that story here on News Nation and in a new book. its tantalizing title, imminent inside the Pentagon's hunt for UFOs. Your book title is imminent. Something is about to happen.
What's about to happen? Well, if we're lucky, disclosure. The realization that the US government is aware that the topic of UAPs is not only valid, but they're real. The book lays out in vivid detail allegations that the United States military has been running a UAP retrieval and reverse engineering program for years and has even recovered alien bodies. Aliens, nonhuman intelligences are real and they have been engaging with humanity. >> Ross, we're not alone.
We are not alone in this universe and it is a simple fact and the US government has been aware of that fact now for decades. >> The American public, the entire planet is being lied to by the American government about what's really going on. >> I think if the American public knew just how deep this lie went, that we would have an very significant constitutional crisis on our hands. >> Why should you believe any of this? And who is this Alzando character anyway? Well, it depends on whom you ask. very hardworking, very diligent, intelligent and patriotic.
>> He is just a normal guy who is trying to do something extraordinary. >> What defines Lou Alzando, loyalty, transparency, honesty. Officially, the Pentagon disputes what Alzando says he's done and seen. But everyone agrees he's an Army veteran who has served in hotspots around the world, then oversaw counter espionage and counterterrorism investigations for the Department of Defense. In short, he's an American badass.
You've been in combat situations, haven't you? You've been in life-threatening situations. >> I've been in some very unfortunate situations. Yeah, I've got a lot of regrets and I want to make sure that whatever I've done in my life uh serving the people in that building, I don't want to forget even the bad things. >> To make sense of the man and his claims, you need to go back to when it all started. That was 2009 when Alzando was working as an intelligence operations specialist for the Department of Defense.
He'd risen to the coveted GS-15 pay scale, the highest level federal employees can attain. >> Remember, I was I was a senior GS-15 at the time, which is yeah, pretty pretty senior. >> What's more, he'd set up a comfortable life in Kent Island, Maryland with his wife, Jen, and their two daughters. >> We had a really nice place to live. this was a great place to raise our kids and it was just a really laid-back area to grow up to raise a family and to live here.
>> But Alzando says it all changed after he met this man, a renowned missile systems expert named Jim Lhatsky. He was running a program called OAP. >> He was running a program called OAP, correct? >> Which I have to read the acronym. It's the um advanced aerospace weapons system application program. But you learned soon that what OSAP was investigating was not just advanced weaponry.
>> Yeah. I remember distinctly um Jim pulling me into his office. He said I mean just bluntly. He said, "What do you think about UFOs?" And so I I responded truthfully. I said, "I don't I wasn't interested particularly as a kid into science fiction.
I wasn't a big Star Trek fan or or Star Wars fan. So, I I consider myself kind of a gum shoe investigator, old school, just just the facts, ma'am, kind of guy. And he said, "That's fair, but he said,"Make sure that you don't let your analytic bias get the best of you, and you have to remain open-minded." >> He basically told you UFOs, unidentified anomalous phenomena, UAPs, are real. >> Yeah. So, so Jim told me, point blank, they were studying and collecting information on UFOs.
Alzando claims he was invited to join a program under the ORAP umbrella called ATIP, the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program. And soon that invitation became an initiation. >> Oh, it was a bit of like Alice in Wonderland going down the rabbit hole and it kept getting deeper and deeper. Alzando says his first real epiphany came during a meeting with a Brazilian air force general who'd come to brief them on a series of incidents in a city called Kalaras. Tell me what was happening.
>> These people, the town's people were being plagued by UAP UFOs. In some cases, they were being pursued and reports of these laser beam type, if you will, emissions were coming down and harming people to the point where the Brazilian government actually deployed doctors and the military to investigate. And then when they arrived, they substantiated. They encountered these UFOs, these UAP as well. >> But Lou, I I I know the report of Callaris.
Officially, according to the Brazilian government, Callaris didn't find any evidence at all. >> Yeah. Well, that was not the case and it was very clear that that it was a very legitimate investigation and what they found was that these things were coming in and out of the area and and harming people. >> As Lou went further down the rabbit hole, he says he learned that many of the classic UFO cases were in fact much more than legends, including the famous incident in Roswell, New Mexico. Roswell, 1947.
What happened? There was a UAP that crashed. In fact, there were two UAP that crashed and uh one flew away while the other one did not and it was recovered by the US government. >> You must appreciate people watching this hearing you talking about aliens, recovered craft, recovered bodies. It sounds crazy. Well, as I've said before, I'm not saying it doesn't sound crazy.
What I'm saying is real. Coming up, are alien abductions real? >> So, people have been taken away from their homes and had things planted in them. >> Is there a connection between aliens and psychic powers? >> This is real morphology occurring in the human brain. >> And what happened when Lou started bringing his work home with him? >> I had no idea what the hell I was getting myself into. Stay with us.
Former Pentagon UFO investigator Lou Alzando writes in his new book, Imminent, that nonhuman intelligence has been engaging with humans for decades. So, what do they want? There are many commentators who say they're friendly. They're no threat at all to humanity. Can we assume that? >> Well, I I I think in order to understand if something is a threat from a national security perspective, it's a very simple calculus. It's capabilities versus intent.
We see some of the capabilities. And by the way, we can't replicate them. We have no idea the intent. So to to presume or to assume that these things are friendly or they're hostile, there's not enough data. Alzando says the Pentagon's UFO investigators were keenly interested in the impact UAPs were having on individuals, especially military personnel.
>> There's enough reports that substantiate that not all these interactions are necessarily benign or peaceful. Some people leave terrified. Some people leave injured. There are US service people I there is people that are on full 100% disability right now from the US government because of an interaction with UAP and it's in writing by the way from the US government because of their involvement in an incident. Indeed, the Veterans Administration has granted full medical disability benefits to this man, Airman John Burrows, for injuries to his heart and eyes he claims he suffered during the famous 1980 UAP incident in Rendlessham Forest, England.
And Alzando says that's just the tip of the iceberg. Did you in any of your UAP investigations come across evidence of alleged abductions of humans by nonhuman beings? >> We we came across information that suggested that people were having things put inside their body that they did not give approval to. >> So people have been taken away from their homes in the middle of the night and had things planted in them. >> Something that was put inside their body, something invasive, right? something that was not put there by their permission to do something. >> You've seen one of those implants, haven't you? >> I have been privy to some very interesting things.
This photo, he says, shows one of those interesting things. It's allegedly a biological sample removed from a US service member and submitted for analysis. This is possibly an alien implant. Well, if you look, there's actually a piece of the chip or whatever this is, this foreign object is encapsulated by some sort of biological material. >> Could that not be something biological, microbiological or parasitic? >> Well, it certainly the outside looks like it's some sort of masking device.
In essence, you have a foreign object which it was a it's a metallic object in there and it seems to be encapsulated by some sort of biological material. >> How do you know it's not just a bit of metal that somebody's knocked into on a building site or >> Well, in this particular case, this was moving on its own. It was actually had its own metabolic activity and it it terrified one of the doctors who was looking at this under a microscope um said they didn't want to they didn't want to see this again. But are UAPs abducting people at random or are they drawn to certain individuals? Alzando says research has revealed an intriguing pattern among UAP experiences in a fascinating part of the brain. This is a part of the brain known as the quadite pudamin and it is a very specific part of the brain.
It's responsible for all sorts of stuff and and some have even speculated precognition uh may >> but certainly intuition >> intuition for sure. >> Alzando says the cordate Putaman is larger in people with alleged psychic powers what the government has called remote viewing. What about people who've had UAP experiences? >> Very interesting that this the same thing. And by the way, that's not me telling you the these are are medical doctors and scientists. >> Stanford immunologist Dr.
Gary Nolan has been researching this topic. And while his conclusions are not definitive, there are two working theories. One, that people with naturally large cordate putan might attract UAPs like an antenna. another that UAP encounters with normal people cause that same part of the brain to get bigger. >> And there is a lot of information to substantiate that this is this is this is real morphology occurring in the human brain.
>> Alzando argues that people with enhanced cordate putan might have a talent both for remote viewing and communicating with UAPs. And that's important because it's an established fact that the Pentagon has had an interest in remote viewing for military purposes. In the vernacular, they used to call it psychic espionage. There was a program in the US government. It's called Stargate.
They were taking young soldiers and civilians and they were training them to conduct espionage behind enemy lines. Uh and the term was called remote viewing. A lot of people that were in the remote viewing program had MRIs done of their brains and and a vast majority have have that specific morphology. Do I think it's extraordinary? No. It may be a vestigual capability that humans had for a long time.
>> But does it work? >> Oh, it absolutely works. It absolutely works. You >> see, remote viewing has been discredited that the CIA determined that it doesn't work. >> Okay. Sure.
>> You're saying it does work? >> It absolutely works. >> Lou says he knows it works because he was trained in remote viewing himself. >> I I don't like to really publicly talk about it. My involvement was only tangential. >> There's a story you tell of a terrorist suspect and there was a remote viewing operation done that you were part of.
>> Yes, we did an experiment. um probably shouldn't have, but we did. And long story short, it appeared to be um very effective. >> That alleged capability for remote viewing and its potential connection to non-human intelligence may sound like a gift. But Lou says it was also at least partially a curse.
He says that's because after years of studying UAP encounters, he began experiencing what's known in UAP circles as the hitchhiker effect. UAPs were appearing at his home, perhaps because he was attracting them. What started happening? Oh, wow. Where would I start? Um, well, we would have these weird glowing balls of light in the house. They were they were green.
They were um small. They were diffuse. Um kind of like like a little neon ball. And it really caused some disruption for for my kids and my wife. >> What were you seeing? >> I would routinely see orbs.
>> What do you mean by orbs? >> Small little spherical green, lightish green type of color. and I'd be just walking down the hall and and I would just stop and it would just continue to go right through the wall. >> So, we're talking about the hitchhiker effect. >> Something had followed Lou home from work >> or by his very nature. Yes.
>> How did he explain things? Was he able to talk about what was going on? >> Not well. >> I could imagine you were pretty angry. >> I was very upset. The house had been turned upside down. >> Yes, it sounds like the stuff of madness.
Tall tales, delusions, and anyway, where was the proof for any of this? But before Alzando was through, the world would see it on video. >> There's a whole fleet of them. Look on the FA. My gosh. >> Stay with us.
This is the video that would shock the world and change it. 2004 and November, the USS Nimttz carrier strike group were doing what they call workups off the coast of San Diego. And as they are doing this, there are two different radar arrays that are picking up these objects over the course of several days, dropping from 80,000 ft and within about a second or less, all of a sudden being 50 ft over the water and hovering and then popping back up again. So they vector the two F-18 aircraft and they go to look at this thing. And long story short, after visually seeing this tic-tac looking object uh roughly about the same length of a F-18 fuselage performing in ways that we still can't replicate, bouncing around up and down.
>> So this is an intelligent technology. >> This is absolutely and it's and it's responsive and reactive >> and it's not human. >> It's it's not ours. Though the Nimtt's tic-tac incident had occurred back in 2004, Alzando didn't see the video until 2009. And then in 2015, it happened again.
>> Naval aviators attached to the USS Roosevelt recorded these two other videos during exercises off the coast of Florida. That also caught the attention of intelligence consultant and former deputy assistant secretary of defense Chris Melon. The Navy was experiencing a number of incursions into restricted airspace. And I met Lou at the Pentagon, began to to hear about these incursions, and the more I learned, the more I realized that we had a potential disaster on our hands. >> The videos remained undisclosed to the public for years, and it's easy to see why.
These weren't just strange objects in the sky. They conformed to what ATIP would establish as the five observables. >> My gosh. >> So the five observables include instantaneous acceleration, hypersonic velocity, low observability, transmedium travel, and anti-gravity. In essence, the ability to defy Earth's natural gravitational force without the associated technology or means to do it.
The government has said that for the record. This is not our technology. You know, people always say, well, Lou, you know, these these things are from clearly from outer space. And I said, 'Well, you know, let let's let's hold off on that. I often tell people, look, they can be from outer space, inner space, or frankly, the space in between.
There's a whole reality around us. There's life in the bottom of the ocean that that that live and thrive, and they they survive off chemosynthesis, not the sun. And then we have life that's, you know, deep down in the Arctic ice that's thriving and even on the ISS space station. What do you find, though, the most plausible explanation for the intelligence that we're witnessing? >> I mean, these things could be just as natural as we are. They could be from the oceans.
We don't know. >> Alzando says ATIP also identified another pattern. In several instances, UAPs have allegedly appeared near American nuclear facilities or weapons systems. Both the Nimmits and the Roosevelt are nuclearpowered. >> We do know that there is a very significant interest that UAP have towards our nuclear technology.
A daunting thought to be sure, but Alzando says ATIP also developed a hypothesis that the UAPs might have an Achilles heel, a vulnerability that the American military can exploit. Electromagnetic pulses of some kind could bring down these craft. >> Yeah. The general consensus was that these vehicles, their propulsion units are susceptible to electromagnetic pulse. Meaning they are using a technology that the electromagnetism if they were to encounter a certain frequency of electromagnetism would interfere with their ability to fly and maneuver.
Building on that hypothesis, Alzando says his team devised an audacious secret plan to disable and capture one of those tic tacs. We had proposed a a a honey trap to to try to collect um data and information on these UAP. >> So this was an operation known as interloper. >> That is correct. So you have a nuclearpowered carrier with other nuclearpowered vessels uh potentially nuclearpowered submarines which also may have potentially nuclear weapons.
So the idea is to create a a nuclear footprint that is so irresistible to these things. We would create a a a trap and then that trap would be sprung. >> But operation Interloper never made it past the planning phase. Interloper was stymied, wasn't it? It was scrapped. >> It was scrapped.
>> It was a pretty good idea >> and it was approved by a lot of people, a lot of agencies. >> And yet when it finally got to the top, it was stopped. It was blocked. It's almost like somebody perhaps already knew the answer >> or didn't want us having the answer. Alzando says the shelving of Operation Interalopa was just one of several puzzling and frustrating setbacks to ATIP's mission.
And eventually he came to believe it was more than just bureaucratic inefficiency. Someone was trying to block his team from making progress. I took an oath to the American people to defend this country from all enemies, foreign and domestic. And it turns out that the enemy was elements in our own government. It was a bureaucracy.
That realization would lead to the biggest and riskiest decision of Alzando's life. >> Accomplish my mission. I knew I had to leave. >> Stay with us. [Music] If it's true that the Pentagon's socalled legacy program has been secretly retrieving and studying nonhuman craft and even bodies, well, where are they? Area 51, Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio or somewhere else.
No one has come forward with those specifics. Not even famed military intelligence officer turned UFO whistleblower David Grush, who went public on NewsNation last year. >> Those details uh were not approved for me to talk about. >> But now Lou Alzando is going there. There comes a point in your book where you name names.
You name Loheed Martin, TRW, Northrup, Grumman, Boeing, Rathon, BE Systems, and the Aerospace Corporation as being some of the private corporations that are involved in working on retrieved alien technology. True. >> Uh, it is true that it is in my book. Yep. >> You also reveal how some nonhuman alien bio samples are now being kept at Fort Dietrich in Maryland or with the >> were >> or were with the FDA and that they've been moved around so many times their origins have likely been forgotten.
Alzando claims that some of the answers and perhaps the biological samples can be found here at the Department of Health and Human Services which oversees the FDA and the NIH. Certainly, we know that a lot of these samples were farmed out to experts like the National Institute of Health, NIH, and the US Food and Drug Administration, which absolutely fall under the authorities of this building. Logically, it makes sense that there are people in that building right now that may know the location of where these biological samples are. >> The defense company's Alzando names, the Pentagon, and the Department of Health and Human Services all categorically deny Alzando's claims. He says those denials are only possible because he could never get the evidence to prove their involvement once and for all.
Your investigations wanted to investigate those samples and you were denied access. >> We were. Yeah. >> You became increasingly aware, didn't you, that there were people in the Pentagon, in the intelligence community, in private aerospace who didn't want you investigating UAPs. >> Absolutely.
We began to run into some fierce resistance. And the more we continued to investigate, the increased level of that resistance became. Um, there were elements The only way I can describe them as as religious fundamentalists. >> It's a group that is euphemistically dubbed as the Collins elite, >> isn't it? >> It is. The Collins elite has long been rumored to be a cabal of religious fanatics within the Pentagon.
Many consider them a myth. Alzando thinks otherwise. >> That that group is alive and well. It exists. I I encountered elements of that group firsthand.
and they're gatekeepers inside the Pentagon who don't want the UAP story investigated. >> That is correct, Ross. There are religious fundamentalists inside the Pentagon and inside the US government and specifically the intelligence community that have a very, how shall I say, strict interpretation of their philosophical belief system. >> Alzando recounts one specific encounter with a highranking member of this socalled Collins elite. He stopped me in the halls at the Pentagon.
He said, "Have you read your Bible lately?" And I was kind of surprised by the question. Like, I mean, I know what the Bible says. What may ask specifically? What do you mean? Says, "And you know what we're dealing with are our demons. These are demonic beings and we shouldn't be looking at them." >> But aside from potential religious motivations for the secrecy, Alzando suggests there could also be geopolitical considerations at play. Do the Russians and the Chinese have recovered craft? >> I can't speak on behalf of what the Russians or Chinese or any adversaries may have or may not have.
>> Well, could that be driving our concern that we don't want to show our hand? >> There's always a concern when a foreign adversary is looking at something. There is this cat and mouse. We don't want the adversaries to know what we have and we also don't want the adversaries to know what we don't know, right? So, there's always a reason not to broadcast what you know and don't know to your enemy. >> Whatever the motivations for the alleged cover up, Alzando says it went way beyond mere bureaucratic foot dragging. People were threatened, weren't they? >> Oh, absolutely.
Some of our folks were told, "If you're not careful, we're going to do exactly to you what we did with the Rosenbergs. You're done." >> So, people are being threatened with death if they talk about this. >> Sure. Because And by the way, people say, "Oh, the government would never do that." Try getting on Area 51. There's signs on the fence that say lethal force is authorized.
You absolutely can use lethal force to protect national security investments and equities that we do it. Alzando describes the mounting obstructions, the denied requests, the scrapped plans, the threats, and above all the steadfast refusal to disclose any of this either to the public, the Congress, or even the president. By early 2017, it had all become too much. So, there came a time during your work with ATIP where you just decided, "I'm getting nowhere. I'm getting blocked.
I'm getting stymied." What did you decide to do? >> I went public. I resigned. How hard was it for you to write this letter? Oh. Um, yeah. This letter is my my resignation memo to the Secretary of Defense.
Uh, probably the hardest memo I ever had to write. >> In the letter addressed to Defense Secretary James Mattis, Alzando said he was quitting because despite overwhelming evidence, certain individuals in the department remained staunchly opposed to further research on the controversial topic of anomalous aerospace threats. because you wrote that memo and circumvented your immediate >> bosses. >> Oh yeah. >> What did they do? >> Um, well, they made my life hell.
>> Hard times were ahead, but Alzando was about to make some hell of his own as he and those explosive videos were about to go public. >> I'm doing this because I believe it's the right thing to do. >> Stay with us. [Music] On December the 16th, 2017, the world woke up to a bombshell. Lou Alzando, working with Chris Melon, had gone public with the now famous Nimtt's tic-tac video.
>> I contacted three different news organizations and eventually uh the New York Times editors were persuaded they had enough to do a front page story. The New York Times published an explosive article revealing the Pentagon's secretive UFO program. >> Reports the US government is still collecting information about encounters between unknown aircraft and our military. Alzando spent 10 years as head of a secret study of unidentified aerial objects. >> When the story broke, you suddenly, this covert operator who'd worked in the world of intelligence, suddenly became an international public figure.
>> What was that like? It was terrifying. Um, I had spent my entire life living in the shadows. Um, as an intelligence officer, uh, anonymity is your friend. Coming out was was for me one of the most difficult experiences. >> Suddenly, Lou Alzando's face became synonymous with the UFO question.
And now, with his days at the Pentagon behind him, Lou devoted himself to the cause. He took a job with To the Stars Academy, a UFO research and advocacy group founded by rockstar Tom Dong. Together, they appeared on History Channels Unidentified, Inside America's UFO Investigation, which garnered him even more fame. Someone even started selling t-shirts with his face. But that attention came at a price.
There were a lot of positives, but things also were about to get bad, weren't they? I I did not think that our lives would be this turned inside out for this many years. It's exhausting. It's exhausting. >> You suffered retribution and in fact the Office of Special Investigations in the Air Force began a criminal investigation against you, didn't they? >> They did. >> What happened with that? >> The the initial allegation was that I uh um was responsible for unauthorized disclosure and then I I stole classified videos out of the Pentagon and a whole bunch of stuff.
And long story short, the Air Force OSI came back and just said, "Nope, actually we seized the computers, no wrongdoing, didn't take anything home, and he never had a conversation about anything classified. Everything's unclassified." >> Publicly, the Pentagon has also denied Lou's claim that he was the head of ATIP, both in prior public statements and directly to NewsNation for this report, effectively calling him a liar and a fraud. take ISIS, I'll take al-Qaeda, you know, whatever you those don't scare me. Those don't bother me. What bothers me is when people question my loyalty, my intentions of what I'm trying to do.
That that cuts deep. >> What do you think yourself of the fact that the Pentagon, as you describe it, has been actively trying to discredit Lou? >> I think it's shameful. This is how you're repaid. doesn't. It makes no sense to me.
It makes no sense. >> We need to have an intelligence community that is willing to speak truth to power. Here comes a guy who does that and clearly is correct. Does he get an award for identifying a huge major vulnerability in America's air defense like he should? No. He gets harassed by these bureaucrats because he's doing stuff that is inconvenient.
>> On top of the reputational attacks, Lou and his family were uprooted from their home as Lou's new job at To the Stars Academy called him to California. Then the job fell through. You'd essentially gone from fairly steady jobs, well- paid in Maryland, and you'd basically taken a complete financial bath. Mhm. I had to get a job at Target and then after that I got a job at Home Depot.
>> The family went from their house in Maryland to this mobile home. Does it frustrate you sometimes that people perhaps don't understand the sacrifice that you and Lou and your family have had to endure? >> Yeah, especially because everyone thinks we have all this money. Oh, they're just grifting. Come live for a day in my life. I guarantee you will run back to yours.
>> Why is this worth it, Lou? I mean, you were a GS-15 in the senior executive service of the Defense Department. You ended up having to dig your own pit toilet. You couldn't continue to pay your rent. Why? Why is it worth it? >> I have two daughters and I have a wife and we have been through hell. But there's a lot of people who had a lot worse than me.
I feel terrible because the stress I have put my family through and what they've had to endure. >> Some relief finally came in April 2021 when Senator Harry Reid wrote a letter confirming Lou's role in ATIP. >> It's in black and white. Personal vindication aside, Alzando says he's most proud of the momentous shift that's taken place in the national conversation on the UAP question, both among the general public and on Capitol Hill. In 2022, lawmakers passed legislation that called on the DoD to create a UAP office which would report to Congress.
That office is now known as the All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office or Arrow. You have come a long way since 2017. What's been achieved? >> I'm most proud of the fact it's being openly discussed in the halls of the Pentagon. That means that the stigma, the taboo is finally finally evaporating and we can begin to see the topic more clearly. Unidentified objects in any domain pose potential risks to safety and security, particularly from military personnel and capabilities.
With the testimony of the first ARO director, Shaun Kirkpatrick in 2023, it seemed like the UAP Renaissance had officially commenced. But would it really be an age of enlightenment? >> What he was saying is not consistent with the truth. And when someone like that blatantly tells you something that is not true, you've got a serious credibility problem. >> Stay with us. >> Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you God.
On the 26th of July 2023, Navy pilot Ryan Graves, Navy Commander David Fraver, and former Air Force intelligence officer David Grush testified at a congressional hearing heard around the world. >> I was informed in the course of my official duties of a multi-deade uh UAP crash retrieval and reverse engineering program. >> How did it feel for you that moment? >> It was a very profound and proud moment for me. So he had three military personnel testifying on the reality of UAP. Now that's that's historic.
>> Whistleblower David Grush came on NewsNation and made an earthshattering claim. >> It felt for a moment like the dam was breaking. That full disclosure was about to happen. >> The American people deserve to know the truth on this. >> But it didn't work out like that.
First, Arrow denied David Grush's claims. Then like Lou, Rush became the subject of a vicious discrediting campaign, including his own medical history. >> And they try to discredit him just like they try to do me, just like they try to do anybody else who comes out and steps out of out of rank. >> What's more, Arrow has publicly declared that it has found no evidence to support any claims of a government UAP retrieval program. As for the UAP captured on those famous videos, yes, they remain unidentified.
But while the Pentagon says Arrow will follow the data wherever it leads, it says it has not found any credible evidence of extraterrestrial activity. >> So, do you think that people like Shan Kirkpatrick are operating according to a dictated agenda? That they're being told to try and suppress interest in the UAP? What I can tell you is that what he was saying is not consistent with the truth. And when someone like that blatantly tells you something that is not true, you've got a serious credibility problem. Dr. Kirk Patrick told NewsNation, "At no time did I provide false information to Congress.
In fact, my team provided actual evidence, something that all of the other claimants have failed to do." Uh, why haven't you appeared before Congress yet? There must have been numerous opportunities. Well, sure, but there's only been one public hearing so far. There's going to be more, and it's not up to me, but I can tell you I've been asked, and my response was, absolutely, I will testify. Lou's a patriot, isn't he? >> Yes. >> What's driving him? >> He feels that humanity is owed this information.
People should know if we are not alone, no government has the right to keep that hidden. A growing public movement seems to agree as interest in the UAP question continues to intensify both online and at UAP conferences around the country. Plus, there's been a veritable avalanche of former military officers coming forward with similar claims, including Rear Admiral Tim Galedet and Colonel Cal Nell. >> Non-human intelligence exists. Non-human intelligence has been interacting with humanity.
This interaction is not new. And militarygrade UAP videos are now popping up regularly. Like this one over Puerto Rico. This one along the Arizona border and this one over an undisclosed conflict zone in the Middle East. >> This is more than intriguing, more than provocative.
is potentially revolutionary and transformational. >> What can people do? What shouldn't any citizen do? How can they help you? >> Get involved. Talk to your members of Congress. Ask questions. Whether it's around the dinner table or the water cooler, that's what I would encourage people to do.
Start asking the hard questions. So, Lou Alzando, Crystal Ball, let's go one, two years in the future. Are we going to be as much in the dark then as we are now? Uh, no. But you know, disclosure isn't a sprint. It's a marathon.
It's not going to happen overnight. Disclosure isn't an event. It's a process. I I think this next generation, if if our kids are any indicator of of hope, that's where real disclosure is going to occur. Hello and welcome to Reality Check.
I'm Ross Kulart and what a week it's been. Very, very busy indeed. Of course, this show we're going to focus very strongly on the interview I did with Lou Alzando, the former Pentagon UFO investigator and his book Imminent. And we're bringing my good friend and colleague Merrick von Renenamp in to help me do the analysis. But before we roll Merrick in, I do want to talk about the breaking news of the appointment of a new ARO director.
This is the Pentagon's UFO UAP Investigation Office, ARO, the All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office. And the interim director since October 2023, since Dr. Sha Kirkpatre departed, has been Tim Phillips. And he's now been announced by the Defense Department to be being replaced by a Dr. John T.
Klosski, who's come to us from the National Security Agency. And I have to say, Dr. John Klosski is extremely well spoken of by people I respect and admire in the UAP field. People say he's very, very genuine about bringing a new approach to Arrow. Not that he's hyperritical of his predecessors, but that he does want to try and restore public confidence in Arrow after frankly what has been months of turmoil.
One of the first tests of Dr. John T. Kosowski, of course, is going to be whether he retains Dr. Sean Kirkpatre in the rather unusual role he's had as a kind of semicconsultant to Arrow where he's been commenting in his role as a former director of Arrow and being given I think undue emphasis I think because of his past role as a director of Arrow. So it'll be very very interesting to see whether Dr.
Shaun Kirkpatrick is kept on in that role by Cosloski. But what I can tell you about Ksowski is he's pretty impressive. He comes from the NSA, which is of course one of America's premier spy agencies. He's been involved in what sounds like incomprehensibly complicated research, leading missionoriented research in the fields of networking and computing. He's a subject matter expert in the area of free space optics, whatever that is, advising various DoD agencies.
In addition to his optics research and crypto mathematics, Dr. Kosowski invented an advanced language agnostic search engine and served at the DoD Special Communications Enterprise Office. I have no idea what that means. I I took a peek earlier at two patents that Dr. Cosloski has patented and found them so incomprehensible, I'm not even going to try and tell you what they are.
He's got a bachelor's degree in mathematics and physics from California State University, San Bernardino, and a PhD in electrical engineering from John Hopkins University. And just to give you a summary of his work, the focus of his doctoral research was the invention of novel devices that leverage principles from quantum optics to receive very weak phase encoded signals. clear as mud. Well, what I can tell you that does make sense is Cosloski is very well spoken of by people who want change and want a greater degree of transparency and openness by the Pentagon. And frankly, whilst I'm not a huge fan of Arrow and I've been very critical of Arrow, I think this is potentially a very positive move and uh it's going to I think be incumbent on all of us to give Dr.
Cosloski a chance. Let's show him good faith and let's see how he moves. By the way, if anybody wants a job, I noticed that there's also a ARO deputy chief of staff going. You can be based in Virginia, Alexandria, and you would be the chief of staff for ARO and uh you'd have a top secret SCI clearance. So if anybody wants the job, it's up on the um up on the ODNI.gov website, ARO chief of staff.
Start date 20th of October. So it looks like they're hiring, which is good news. Now, before we get into this week's show, I want to also show you an interview section that we didn't run in the Louzando interview purely and simply because of time. A lot of folk have been asking me why Lou Alzando made no comment about David Grush. And before the rumor mill starts, can I say Lou spoke extremely highly of David Grush and the decision not to include the particular comment that I'm about to show you in the program was purely and simply made because of time.
But a lot of folk I think have attached a lot of importance to the fact that there was no mention of David Grush in the Lou Alzando interview. So, I thought it would be important for people to see just how highly Lou Alzando regards David Grush and how he shares the traviles and the pain that David Grush has been through for being a whistleblower. David of course is the guy that I interviewed in June last year for NewsNation when he went public as a former very senior intelligence officer formerly with the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency. speaking about his knowledge of a retrieval and reverse engineering program involving UAPs. Here's what Lou Alzando said.
This is a dangerous battle you're fighting, Lou. There are forces, powerful forces, that don't want this story told. >> Oh, yeah. And they'll go to great lengths to to to keep it keep it a secret. Look what happened to poor Dave.
You know, I worked with David Space Force. I don't know if that's public knowledge, but I'll say what the hell. He and I were working the UAP topic for Space Force for a very good man, a senior guy, very senior guy, by the way. And this is all in the open. So, I mean, this was this was acknowledged at the time.
And um he did the right thing. You know, a lot of our our servicemen and women suffer deeply from PTSD. And until recently, we were always told, you know, it can affect your security clearance. Don't don't seek psychological help. And then something happened.
somebody who I respected quite a bit and and thankfully it was it was General Clapper when he became the DNI said we're not going to hold our men and women anymore responsible if they go and seek mental counseling and they self-referral because of PTSD the horrible things that they have to endure in combat they should not be penalized from their security clearance right so what happened with Dave Bruce when he did the right thing he did exactly what he was supposed to do some nitnoid reporter gets information from none other than who people from inside the government to say, "H, they've had had had counseling." Well, wait a minute. That's exactly what you want someone to do if they need it because the suicide rate for our men and women in uniform is through the roof. And you know what? No one seems to really give a So this is why we had to change the policy. So for David doing the right thing, the very first thing he does within 24 hours, they start seating dissension and they start misinformation and trying to question his loyalty and his credibility. David Rou is a patriot.
And in my book, he's he he's a damn fine human being and a hero for what he did. And what was his reward from that? What was his reward for that? Immediately the antibodies came out and they try to discredit him just like they try to do me. just like they try to anybody else who comes out and steps out of out of rank. >> So, as you can see, a glowing endorsement from Lou Alzando for David Grush. Now, let's move on to today's show.
And boy, we've got a lot ahead of us. Here we go. Lou sat down with me last Friday and gave a very detailed one- on-one interview which ran in prime time on NewsNation. and we've had an overwhelming response. And in order to do the analysis of that show and follow up on some of the issues that Lou raised, I'm bringing in Marik von Renenamp who's a former uh national security adviser to the State Department and a Obama administration appointee to the Pentagon, the Department of Defense.
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Maric vonamp, welcome to reality check, sir. How are you today? What did you think of the Lou Alzando special we put to air last week? >> Well, Ross, first of all, thank you very much for having me on. Um, and congratulations on another extraordinary interview that in my mind really pushes this conversation forward. And um I'll just quickly kind of at the outset state that um your interview Lou's book really makes the case for why we need Congress to pass the legislation that it's before it that would get to the bottom of these explosive allegations that we're hearing from multiple individuals. So Ross, congratulations.
You did a superb job. Um and love to dive into the details with you. So, I should explain that Marrick is very much a journalist in his own right. He's a he's a contributing uh commentator for The Hill, which is a uh sister publication with the um the network that we all belong to, the NextStar Network. And Marrick, I love your pieces.
is if we're going to give each other a mutual aberration society, I I think everybody should read the Hill contributions made by Merrick because he adds a depth and a contribution to the issue that frankly in television we're not able to do quite often. I do agree with you that Lou's contribution was significant and I think the the passing of the legislation that's coming up in the National Defense Authorization Act at the end of this year is going to be absolutely crucial. I have to admit I'm not optimistic. I'm I'm a bit grim. Uh having been in Washington to shoot the Lou interview and seen what Lou is up against.
The very few people like Lu Lzando are up against on the hill is a very determined uh cadra of gatekeepers in the defense aerospace industry. Frankly Murik, who just do not want this story told. And uh I just want you to have a look at this clip. This was an exchange that I had with Lou uh basically with the Congress as a backdrop and uh intriguingly with the uh Smithsonian Science Museum which I thought was quite apt as as a as a background as well. And we were talking about how reluctantly he's become very much the face of the UAP issue.
So Lou, when you first started out in this campaign, I mean, it was back in 2008, you first heard of UFOs. You had no idea about the phenomenon, did you? >> No clue. Not at all. Never even thought about it. >> And yet, what was it? 9 years later, 2017.
You were the public face of a New York Times story that rocked the world. >> One of the public faces, not the public face. Look, this was this has always been a team effort. It strikes me, Lou, you're a very humble person. You are very much the reluctant hero in this campaign, aren't you? >> Look, I it it can't be about me, >> right? >> You know, I'm doing this so you can think on your own.
Don't don't rely on me, on Lou Alzando, to tell you what to think. That's that's the exact opposite of what I'm trying to achieve. I'm trying to enable everyone, the American people, these folks up here. That's what my goal is. >> So, you want people to get up there and start asking questions of their Congress people? >> Absolutely.
Absolutely. And I got to tell you, there's people right now in that building that are very keen to get to the bottom of this and they're committed. I mean, these are on both sides, both Republican and Democrat, even independent. This is this is truly a bipartisan issue. >> Any thoughts on what Lou's just said to us there, Merrick? Well, Russ, um first of all, I want to highlight that um this is and as Lou made very clear, this is one of perhaps the only issues or one of very few issues that is truly bipartisan in a deeply divided country and in a politically fractured nation.
So, um I I do want to highlight I know I know uh uh there is some pessimism about the uh legislation that is in front of Congress, but I do want to highlight that perhaps maybe u you know be highlight the positive and the the more optimistic side of of this and that is that um this has united the the all of the kind of different factions in American politics whether it is uh Democrats, the more um MAGA Trump Republicans and more moderate Republic Republicans. Um we've seen a a remarkable kind of coalesing around the the the members of Congress who are interested in this. Um and and we really need to see um more step up and become more vocal. But um Lou's right. Um you know there there is certainly um a lot of work ahead but it is a bipartisan issue and that deserves uh a closer look and uh certainly some analysis and examination.
I think the thing that sticks out for me is Lou is, as he acknowledges, he's quite a humble guy. He doesn't like being the focus of attention. But the reality is what really struck me when I was filming with him over several days in DC. He's under incredible pressure and the decision that he made as, you know, a very senior serving employee of the Defense Department to step away from that world that he'd been part of for decades and to make this decision to speak out publicly and take a stand on the UAP issue. It's probably the bravest thing that he as a warrior, as a combat soldier, has ever done.
And I I was really shocked today. Marrick, I'm going to take a swipe at the stupid sod who basically made this insinuation against Lou. Um, I won't say who it was, but this idiot commented online basically saying in the wake of his CBS uh, Mornings interview, you know, this is just a cash card for Lu Alzando and that essentially all this is about is insinuating that he and we are all about making money. I can tell you for Lou, the costs have been intense. And that's the thing that really struck me when I was filming with him is the damage that this has caused to his career, the stress on his family life.
It's intense. And I don't think the public understands the degree of sacrifice that he's making in order to bring this issue into the public domain. >> I I couldn't agree more, Ross, and and it really speaks to motivations. Um, to your point, I think actually physically showing a photo of of the RV, the trailer that that he lived in in your special, um, it drives home that that this was not easy for Lou, his family. Um, and it certainly, you know, uh, was was an enormous stressor on his life.
Um, there's no question about that. I think, you know, he saw, as as Chris Melon has has elucidated, he saw a major national security vulnerability, a gap, an extraordinary gap that nobody was paying attention to. Um, and, you know, he he's been hammered. He's been um attacked relentlessly um online and by the Pentagon. And so, you're you're absolutely right.
He he made some enormous sacrifices um to come forward and he is driving the conversation forward now you know several years on from from going public and from that um fairly well-known resignation letter now um he is driving the conversation and um you know he's he's truly I think I would not be it would not be hyperbolic to say that he is one of the key catalysts behind some of the most extraordinary legislation we have seen in American history. I mean, seeing the Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer um put in writing in black and white nonhuman intelligence go proceed to list it two dozen times alongside legacy programs, which as many of your viewers know, but that's the the nomenclature for these alleged programs that um retrieved and reverse engineered or attempted to reverse engineer um nonhuman craft. And that that's not me saying that, Ross. That's the Senate majority leaders um black and white legislation, right? And and you know, there's been some chatter about, you know, hey, this is just driven by staffers. Well, um, gosh, I' I'd love to show those people the the the clip of Chuck Schumer on the Senate floor engaging in a colloquy, a scripted exchange with Senator Mike Rounds, a Republican, going back to the the bipartisan element of this, um, and making extraordinary statements and saying direct quote, multiple credible sources have told Congress that information has been withheld illegally.
So, with just to quickly come full circle, Lou has um catalyzed a remarkable moment in American history. And if it's all nonsense, um boy, we we need to know. And that's all the more reason to get this legislation passed and for American citizens to engage their elected representatives. Marrick, I want to drill down into something that I know is in your area of expertise, which is the inevitable criticism of Lou is going to be where's the evidence? Uh, I mean, even in the wake of the show that went to wear over the weekend, you know, Lou's basically being criticized for making assertions that he can't back up and even on his own admission he can't back up because he's constrained by the Doppser, the Defense Office pre-publication security review, which very heavily constrains what he's allowed to talk about. But you were talking there about Chuck Schumer, who, if I'm not mistaken, Chuck's a member of the gang of eight.
He's a member of the group of eight people in the Congress. And this is why it's so significant. This is why, you know, you could you could drive a car at people and they still wouldn't understand the significance of this. Chuck Schumer is one of the guys in the Congress who is briefed, isn't he, into the most sensitive secrets in the United States defense and intelligence community. He's allowed to know about the waved unagnowledged special access programs, the most dark secrets of all.
And presumably if there is a legacy UFO crash retrieval reverse engineering program, one would assume that he's at least privy to some of that or do you believe that the implications of what Lou is saying are that somebody like Chuck Schumer has realized and the reason why he's so motivated about this with getting this legislation through the Congress is because he's realized there is something going on and he doesn't know about it. So, Ross, you a lot to unpack there. Um, you you started your show off uh, you know, speaking about um, and I'm I'm going to go to your to your promotional element um, about the the diet that Americans have and how um, processed foods are are a major factor in in American health. I think another major problem in America today is that we do not we no longer teach civics. And I think a lot of the people who comment on um on the the Schumer legislation, for example, have no clue about how our government fundamentally works.
So yes, you are correct. Chuck Schumer is a member of the gang of eight um a very elite group of members of Congress um who are supposed to be under the our constitution um aware of read into our most sensitive secrets. And when somebody like Chuck Schumer, a cautious politician, comes out and authors 64 pages that if you look at read it, the letter and spirit of that legislation, it says me, I somebody who should have knowledge of X, Y, and Z does not have that knowledge. And we have quote credible evidence and testimony that indicates that information has been withheld from Congress illegally. That is a an ex it's an earthshattering development that I I must say I'm ashamed at the uh US media and the the mainstream media.
Um the lack of the attention the the complete ignorance of the kind of the monumental allegations that are part of this legislation as well as the the caliber of the individuals who are sponsoring it. Let alone we can take Lou out of this. You can take individuals like Carl Nell, a high-ranking former army officer who's said the same things. David Grush, you can take all of them out of this. If you just take the Schumer legislation just by itself on its own, it is a remarkable um piece of of legislative uh writing that that has in numbers of subtext and context that need to be analyzed.
So, do you think Schumer knows about the crash retrieval program or do you suspect he's realized that he's not been read into something that properly Congress ought to have been briefed about? >> Yeah, that's a good question. And and Ross, I I like to deal in fact, so now we're going into speculation ter territory. And I want to I want to be clear that I'm speculating here. And I suspect that he um I don't think he's been read in if these if these programs are actually um in existence. And correct me if I'm wrong if you've heard anything else, but I suspect that thanks to Lou and and his efforts and and other efforts, Chris Melon, uh Dave Brush, you can go down the list.
I suspect that enough individuals have um come behind closed doors to Congress and have resulted that has resulted in this legislation. A pet theory of mine, and I I'm open to any and and all alternative takes is that Schumer specifically was informed of these programs because I see a split, a schism between what Schumer and Rounds are doing on one side and what Gillibrand, Rubio, and and the other senators are doing on the on the other side because you had these um last year you had two kind of competing efforts on UAP disclosure. They were both complimentary. They both kind of alleged the same thing, but but they they seem to occur in parallel and they seem to have been stovepiped and separated from each other. And I find that intriguing, right? Every indicator that we have is that Schumer's and rounds have been kind of doing something in a perhaps a silo.
Um, and and that could be could be because Schumer was informed perhaps by some highranking officials privately that this is worth pursuing. I could very well be wrong. Um, but that's a possibility. I'm just I'm just calling it how I see it. So, that's that's um I think a distinct possibility.
Let's get into some of the detail of what Lou revealed on the NewsNation interview. I think one of my favorite moments, if you can have a favorite moment in something like this, something as serious as this, is the quite extraordinary detail that he gives, of an alleged biological implant, some kind of alien implant being removed from a US serviceman, I think, at the Walter Reed Medical Hospital, the military hospital, um, where the surgeon who is removing the object is so freaked out because it appears to be trying to avoid being captured by the surgeon and and when it's in the petri dish, it even moves in the petri dish. That that for me was one of the most uncanny moments. You know, you're literally describing what may be nonhuman technology implants. >> That's right, Ross.
And and look, I here's where I have to be um maybe a little more circumspect and and maybe even skeptical. And that that is a remarkable um story and and if we get more corroborating information, excellent. The bottom line from my perspective and I think I started with this is these are very serious people that are making these statements and allegations to your point. Right. That is all the more reason why this legislation is so important.
We need to get to the bottom of that, right? I Lou, have nothing but utmost respect for him, but we need evidence. We need somebody to come forward, raise their hand in front of Congress and said, "Yes, I took that specimen out of service member X. Go in front of Congress, do it under oath. Let's let's move this process forward." So, I think that the uh the point is thanks to your reporting and and your interview, we now have something tangible to dig into, to sink our teeth into, and for Congress to pursue because nobody else is going to pursue this. >> I guess the question though in my mind, Marik, is how much really is Lou's interview going to move the needle? because he is susceptible.
Let's be brutally honest about it. He is susceptible to the allegation because of the constraints imposed by his Doppser by that Defense Office pre-publication security review. He's susceptible to the allegation that he's just not providing any evidence to back up what he says that we just have to take his word. You know, essentially I was told something by people at Walter Reed Military Hospital that an implant was removed from a serviceman and that it was doing weird things which appeared to be evading detection. I mean, ultimately, you're right.
The only way to substantiate that and to corroborate it is to bring those people before the Congress or to get them deposed in some way, put maybe sit them in front of a TV interview. If you're out there, whoever that was, very happy to talk to you. But the um the the thing that really does make me wonder is whether the Alzando interview in itself is going to move the needle at all or whether even within the UAP community there's going to be a kind of a hoham. You know, well, you know, we've heard all this before. These kind of claims have been made before.
L's talked about Roswell before. He's basically said Roswell was real. What's the evidence? What do you say to that? What do you say to that suggestion? Where's the evidence, >> Ross? Um, I agree completely and um, I've been in touch with Lou and other folks. Um, and you know, I suspect we we may be learning more if if um, if certain legal elements are addressed, we we may be learning more and I'll have more to say about that um, in a hill piece coming up soon. But I want to really get back to um the core of your question, Ross, and and I I'll I'll take this back to the New York Times story that Lou helped break with um Leslie Kaine and and Ralph Blumenthal.
And that article u was published alongside two videos, right? The go fast and the gimbal video. And all along there was an aviator by the name of Ryan Graves who was intimately familiar with that incident. He didn't say anything publicly until what? Until that video became public. So I'm hoping my hope is and this is part of why I cover this story. And my hope is that um when people see your special or read my piece or what have you that it it elicits some kind of some kind of interest or it it's it lights a fire and an an individual or multiple individuals with knowledge of that uh incident or allegation feel less encumbered or or or are free feel more um inspired to speak to Congress or whoever the case may be.
if it's the media or if it's you. I hope they go to you, uh, Ross. Um, >> me too. So, >> yeah. So, I look look I think shining a light on these allegations and and reducing the stigma and normalizing this conversation hopefully will will result in a a critical mass that sustains itself with more individuals coming forward.
I think that's the core of what we are doing here. I I think that's the key point and and that's what I was looking forward to hear from you, which is that what Louzando has done is normalize this conversation. I was watching before I came in for this interview, I was re-watching the CBS Mornings interview that he did, which was only 4 minutes, but 4 minutes on a very key prime time uh network television morning show. And it really struck me how receptive that group of interviewers were. I think there were three interviewers from CBS sitting there with him.
They were very receptive to what Lou was saying. There was no attempt to giggle or stigmatize or treat with taboo a subject that probably I reckon five six years ago before the whole New York Times story broke. I reckon it would have been giggled at. People did they kind of sniggered at the subject of UAPs. Now we've moved beyond that.
I think the public there's a wisdom of the crowd there. people are basically thinking yeah you know what there is something to this so I think this the significance to me of the imminent book the Lzando book is that what it's doing is it's normalizing the public conversation and hopefully as you say making it possible for people who do have that direct knowledge that at the moment Lou Alzando can't reveal what he knows uh to come forward. I just also want to make the point it's funny it's in the course of our um research when we were checking lose bonafidees that you normally do for this kind of interview. I was doing a ringaround talking to people in the Congress and talking to people who have knowledge in the Pentagon of Lou Alzando's background. And I don't think people quite realize the job that he was doing, especially the most recent job that he was doing at UDI, the office of the under secretary for defense intelligence.
Lou was essentially a liaison with the highest level oversight bodies for special access programs inside the defense department. I think it's over the the senior review group or some such body. Basically the body that that gets to review all of the special access programs inside the Pentagon. It was Lou who was basically at that very high level clearly highly cleared to know an enormous amount about some of America's most sensitive secrets. That's the thing that leapt out to me in his book as well is that I didn't know a huge amount to be honest with you about Lou's past work.
And when I was talking to people trying to figure out who Luando was and trying to get to the bottom of what his role really was with ATIP, the Pentagon's UFO investigation program, a lot of people sort of slightly indicated to me that one of the reasons they held such huge respect for Lou Alzando, was because he was such a highly cleared guy. He was one of the guys who really did know all the secrets in the Pentagon at a very very high level basically because he was working out of this office in the under secretary for defense intelligence with with your knowledge of national security. How significant is Lou's background to an understanding of why we should take seriously what he's saying? Uh that that is a fantastic question and I think for the the folks that are not initiated into the kind of the nuances and the arcane process of um of the national security establishment um Lou had a lot of tickets what are referred to those are the the special accesses to um compartmented secret programs and so um that is a huge part of this. Lou Lou has the the the background. He has the um the position um to speak from some level of authority.
Of course we we need evidence. Of course we need to um verify claim X or Y. No question about that. But the point is we need to take people like Lou Carl Nell Dave Grush seriously. Um there's there's this constant refrain.
Oh, we've always heard this story. that's been it's been around for years and years and years. Well, maybe there a maybe there is a reason that has been around for years, but B, we have never had multiple individuals that were so highly cleared into very sensitive programs and activities basically in lock step with the core allegation and that is extraordinary and that's all the more reason why we need to take this as seriously as as you and I do. Um, but I I really, you know, think we need to spur some more interest um in the media and the broader public. Um, because this is the the the characters at um the key characters are are truly credible on their face.
Let's put it that way. >> It's a huge sacrifice for Alzando. I mean, I was really struck when I was talking to him and Jen, his wife, the financial, but also the emotional cost for him and his family, just dealing with moving away from a very secure job as a fairly senior official in the Department of Defense, coming out of the shadows, basically losing everything, going and working for Tom Delong's to the stars academy, getting his salary cut in half, living in a motor home, digging his own pit toilet, I mean, my god, it was a wretched time for the poor bloke. I I have to admit, seeing the pressure that he's under and and how vilified he is often by people who are completely ignorant of the sacrifices that he's making. I do wonder sometimes whether he he might regret privately making the decision that he made because the public to a large degree is unappreciative of the sacrifice that he's making.
And I think one of the things that we we should acknowledge, Merrick, as part of our job as journalists is these people, whistleblowers like Lou, they make enormous sacrifices. Dave Grush, Lou, even Carl Nell, Chris Melon, all of these people sticking their heads up. There's a tendency for these people to get shot at uh purely and simply because they're taking the risk of actually sticking their head up above the parapit and talking about things that are very very unpopular from within the defense department that frankly, let's be honest about it, a group of gatekeepers don't want known. >> Absolutely right, Ross. Um and that's so I I I try not to consider myself a journalist.
I don't have any formal journalistic training. I do have a little bit of analytic training, right? I did worked in the government um graduate school degree really focused on analysis national security analysis and when I when I look at the various players Lou speech particularly Lou in this case Grush Nell to your point it that does fit into my analytic judgment what what is the what are these individuals personal circumstances are they enriching themselves I I don't see um obviously Lou is living in an RV and digging his own toilet. He's not enriching himself on this topic, right? So So that is that is certainly something to um consider in in our analytic kind of process and judgment as we as we vet different claims, as we look at motivations. Very important, right? Um so I think you hit the nail on the head. It's it's very very important to to keep these personal circumstances in mind.
And I think it's absurd to call um these individuals grifters. Just absurd on on their face. They gave up um very well-paying jobs to to speak what they believe is the truth. And and um you know, there certainly is a lot of circumstantial evidence, whether it's um the legislation alone, right? There's an enormous amount of circum circumstantial evidence that that they're on to something significant. I think one of the things that leapt out at me in the interview that I did with Lou and he's also expanded on this in detail in the book is his account of the Collins elite that there is in the Pentagon and in the intelligence community a group of people who are deeply and no criticism of them for this by the way they're entitled to be religious they're deeply evangelical Christian deeply deeply religious and they perceive the phenomenon whatever it is as demonic.
And uh Lou tells me in the interview and he does a little bit of this in the book as well about a meeting or a a sort of a confrontation in a hallway that he had with a very senior member of the um Collins elite, somebody who was very very senior in DIA. I think you and I both know who he's talking about. And um I've looked online and this person is he's a very deep evangelical Christian, somebody of a vowed Christian faith. What do you think about the propriety of somebody in the defense department though letting their religious faith intrude on one the public's right to know about something that is according to Lou Alzando, Chris Melon, Dave Brush, Colonel Nell, a national security, public safety threat? And what do you think about the um the idea that, you know, religious beliefs are allowed to intrude into the day-to-day workings of a government agency, especially one as crucial as the Pentagon. >> I think it's outrageous, Ross.
Pure and simple. It's outrageous. I think it's it's unconscionable um to have any kind of bias, right? That's the worst thing from an analytic from a national security perspective. any kind of bias that clouds objective thinking, objective analysis, um is a is a major major source of concern. Um and you know, if what Lou is saying is accurate, this is this is pretty extraordinary.
Um and you know, I do want to on the topic of religion and theology in UAP, I want to quickly just plug and I'm not an expert. I'm the first person to admit when I'm not an expert on something. I want to qu quickly plug um a book by Paul Thigpin uh Catholic theologian um on uh extraterrestrial intelligence in the Catholic Church I believe is the title and then um Matt Halstead is another individual um who an academic a you know a faithbased academic who is who's done some both of them have done some pretty remarkable um very deep kind of academic work on on this topic and I think I I hope it's fair for me to to summarize their their conclusions, their findings are are um that there there really is there from their perspective and I it's logical to me um that there is no inherent conflict between um what Lou is alleging or or the possibility of of nonhuman intelligence and and these religions, these these religious traditions that we have. Um, that may seem counterintuitive on its face, but I I think they've done a remarkable job of of addressing that. So, I I want to quickly I'll just summarize.
I think it's outrageous. It's unacceptable. It's unconscionable for any kind of religious belief. I don't care what religion it is or or any belief doesn't even have to be theological um to interfere and be an analytic bias. But also there is some some pretty robust academic um literature and work by these by these theologians that um says otherwise that that is very clear.
So I hope anybody that has that perception of this inherent bias or um this this inherent clash takes some time to actually look at at what these gentlemen have have written and put out. One thing I wanted to ask you about Marik was there were people online I noticed who were questioning whether Lou is really taking that much of a risk and they're running this line that because he's gone through the DOPSA process because he's sought approval from the defense office pre-publication secure review office security review office he's not really taking a risk at all and frankly for him this is pretty lame that essentially all he's doing is pariting what he's being told by the Pentagon. And there's a lot of people and oh god, I think the UFO community their own worst enemies on this issue, frankly, where they they basically shaft somebody like Lou coming forward and and insinuate that he's essentially operating with some kind of agenda. Let's deal with that. Let's go to the issue.
Do you think Lou is some kind of plant that he's some kind of mole who's pushing some kind of dark double agenda that's pushing some dark nefarious agenda inside the defense department that we're not allowed to know about? Or do you think he's just genuinely the whistleblower that certainly I believe he is? >> Unless you and I are absurd judges of character, and that's possible, Ross. Um, no, I I do not think I do not think that that is the case. I think um I think he is he is coming forward and and making sacrifices because he truly profoundly believes in what he is putting out in the public record. Um and and again I'm I'm just going to go back to this is all the more reason for this legislation to pass to get to the bottom of this. If there's nothing to see here and lose wrong, okay, fine.
But we we absolutely must look because as we've said, Lou has put his reputation, his livelihood, his retirement uh on the line for to to speak out publicly on on a a very very stigmatized topic. One of the um things that I found especially intriguing and I I know from talking to other people who've been involved in close-up contact with the phenomenon is the way Lou admits that the phenomenon's followed him home. The hitchhiker effect. And it was fascinating talking to him and Jen. There's a lot of other stuff that um we didn't include in the program that they've described that I won't go into here.
But at the very least, what they describe in the book is these orbs, these balls of light that appear to be manifesting themselves in the family home in front of the Lou, his wife, their two beautiful daughters. I mean, if I was a Pentagon employee and I knew that whatever it is that I'm investigating was following me home, literally something anomalous is actually manifesting itself in my home. That's I think one of the most extraordinary things that underlines to me the degree of sacrifice that somebody like him is making. Um, what what's your take on the whole hitchhiker effect? Do you find it plausible? >> Yeah, that that is a great question, Ross. And and again, I I'm going to have to I think I'm I'm going to beat a dead horse here, but I I think these are extraordinary statements coming from very credible people.
I can't trust them on on their face because I've seen no evidence of that, right? But when you have multiple individuals largely saying the same thing, right, that there is something that is following them home, hitchhiking home with them. um that begs for more investigation. I'm not going to take it at face value, but I'm not going to dis I'm certainly not going to discard it at the on the other end of the spectrum. Right. So, so this is absolutely it's vital that we get to the bottom of it.
I think I want to just from a from an analytic perspective. Um, and Ross, I'll I'll maybe get get into a little bit of why I am so fascinated by this topic and and the the analytic basis for why I'm even having this conversation with you. And that is because I've actually taken the time to read well over 150 raw case files from Project Sign, Project Blue Book, and Project Grudge. the the um the 1940s and the 1950s, those are the the u programs that the government had to investigate UAP. And for to for any objective analyst to read through those reports and and see the remarkable similarities from individuals hundreds if not thousands of miles apart who would know, you know, had no possible way of knowing each other's reports and and and seeing the consistency in those reports is remarkable.
And I will add that one of the most common phenomena that is was reported and I assume still is and if we read between the lines of a lot of what the Pentagon is has is released in in terms of pilot reports that round spherical objects sometimes multicolored usually red at night or or or metallic during the day and you know this Ross right we've we've covered this that is one of the most commonly reported phenomena Um, so that aligns with the historical record. Let me just back up. What Lou is reporting aligns with the historical record. Um, it aligns with what we've heard from James Latsky who who wrote a book about this. I think it was Skinwalkers at the Pentagon.
Um, so from an analytic perspective, it's fascinating, but I need more evidence. And this is this is just crying out. It's begging for more investigation. >> Absolutely. Can you explain to our audience why would the defense department allow Lou to do any interview? I mean essentially if it's true that there is this legacy retrieval program, crash reverse engineering program, why allow him to do any kind of interview at all? Why why not just say, "Look, you're a defense department employee.
We're going to shut you up." I mean, in my in my jurisdiction in Australia, the defense department hates the media. They loathe talking to the media and u you know I'm always amazed that the Pentagon actually has a publication security review office that actually allows its employees to get their potential media commentary or published commentary published in Australia. They don't I think they'd rather put you up against a wall and shoot you. So why why is there a DOPS process? Why why is there even a process like this at all? And should we make a conclusion from the DOPS process that there is a willingness inside the Pentagon or at least some part of the the Pentagon to be open and candid about this issue? Why give Blue the opportunity to speak at all? >> Yeah. And and I this is this is an area where I'm not an expert in, but I suspect it is a constitutionally protected first amendment right for a former employee to speak about X.
However, if Y is classified, they can only restrain or constrain an um an ability the the former employees ability to speak about the classified portion, the the portion that was covered by an NDA, for example. So, so there's an inherent free speech right to write a book, to go make a movie script up to a point, and that point that line is is classified information. I suspect I I'm sure somebody on the internet will correct me if I'm wrong, but um I believe that that is at at core what what the dynamic that is at play here. >> So really I want to get your final sort of encapsulation of where the Alzando book and interview takes us. Marik, I mean has it pushed the needle at all? Is it really advancing public awareness or public initiative at all? And more importantly, is it going to make a jot of difference in the Pentagon or in the Congress? >> Ross, I'm I am optimistic um that Lou's book will in fact move the needle.
Um that being said, that is a testable hypothesis, right? we could have this conversation in a year in two years and we can check to see how much if at all lose book and your your interview moved the needle. Um that being said, I I am from my perspective, I am only seeing more individuals, more credible people coming forward and and seeing um a slow, let's call it an increase. Let's, you know, it's it's it's a chain reaction, right, of individuals at at one point it was just Chris Melon and Luke. Then Dave Gush came out, then Carl Nell came out, then James Latsky came out, right? So you see this everex expanding and and this is the word that Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer used in his press release, a vast web of individuals. That's the direct quote.
A they Congress uncovered a quote vast web of individuals and that formed the basis for this remarkable legislation. So, um I'm optimistic that the book, your interview, our coverage, our our combined coverage will get the right people who are interested in this to come forward and hopefully catalyze some more transparency, some more openness or more action, more congressional action with teeth um in the coming months and and years. If the legislation doesn't pass at the end of this year, if the gatekeepers, if the uh the sick offense to the defense aerospace industry are allowed to get their way on the hill towards the end of this year as the Defense Authorization Act comes through the House, if it doesn't pass, isn't there a risk that we could go back to another 30 or 40 years of continued embargo on truth about the UAP issue? I mean, this could all go back into a box. So very easily, couldn't it? >> Ross, it's something I' I've thought about it and it's um the me physically seeing history repeat itself. I'm seeing echoes of the post Robertson panel defense department in the the current UFO analysis office, right? It's there's nothing to see here.
It's all nonsense. Um so yes, could we go back to that dynamic? Absolutely we could. Um, however, and maybe I'm just being optimistic, but I just just seeing more and more credible individuals coming forward publicly despite the stigma, despite the the risk to their reputation and their livelihoods. I am cautiously optimistic um that the genie is out of the uh out of the bottle. But Ross, maybe we can make a deal right here, right now that we have this conversation in a year or two and see if I was right or if I was wrong.
>> Now, Marrick, I want to pay credit to the work that you did in picking Dr. Sean Kirk Patrick up on some of the things that he said in some of his public commentary. He gave us a very late response uh to our story. And he said, he told NewsNation, quote, "At no time did I provide false information to Congress, in fact, my team provided actual evidence, something that all of the other claimants have failed to do." What's your response to that Dr. Sha Kirkpatre comment? I am not privy to exactly what he and Arrow provided to Congress.
However, I have heard from sources on the Senate side that that is inaccurate and that he did not share what was presented to him by whistleblowers with Congress. Um, so there is a major disconnect there. Um, frankly, I don't trust Kurt Patrick. I'll be very honest with you. I gave him the benefit of the doubt.
I spoke to him in person in November of 2023. I spoke to him in a lengthy interview. I want to be very clear. I was I'm very grateful for his time. But um based on what he told me about the most recognizable UFO UAP footage of all time, you'd think that the guy whose job was UFO analysis could maybe know some basic facts about the most extraordinary UFO or most recognizable UFO footage of all time.
and he either lied to me to my face twice or he's astoundingly misinformed and illinformed about um the key UFO incidents that we all know about the Nimmits incident and the 2015 uh the Gimble incident and the Go Fast videos and all that. So um I have very little >> Can I Can I just stop you there for a moment because I'm really interested in getting getting you the detail on this. what were the um the possible untruths or inaccuracies in what he told you? >> Yeah, sure. It's it's um pretty astounding. So, the gimbal video, I think most Americans have seen it.
They might not know it, but they've seen it. Um, and he told me that that was likely um a balloon uh with a the the that bizarre infrared reflection or or infrared signature he told me is is a reflection from the sun. Okay, Dr. Kirkpatrick, that incident occurred at night, so we can rule out the sun, right? You can hear the aviators on the um cockpit audio say that the object and in the video and the other objects that are accompanying it are going against 120 knot winds. That's category 4 hurricane force winds.
I don't know, Ross. I don't know any balloons that go against category 4 hurricane force winds. And if you do, um boy, that's that's a that's a heck of a a child's, you know, birthday balloon or toy. So, um, that's one, uh, pretty astounding. If you don't know the basic facts about the most recognizable UFO video of all time, I don't know what to tell you.
Uh, what where did our taxpayer dollars go? That's astounding. Um, so that that's the issue. The issue is that we we don't appear to be getting from the Pentagon's UFO investigation office, the all domain anomaly resolution office. We don't appear to be getting a scrupulously objective, reasoned, well-argued explanation for why we shouldn't be taking these seriously as anomalous objects. And I I'll quickly the Go Fast video, he endorsed NASA's analysis after I NASA made a just an astounding catastrophic ma mathematical error in its analysis.
I have some help. I've got actual an actual scientist helping me on the you know work we're working through this stuff and after I pointed out NASA's error on that particular video um Kirk Patrick said oh I haven't looked at NASA's analysis are you are you joking me I mean you you literally just endorsed it gave it a ringing endorsement a few months ago and then you said you haven't looked at it I mean this is just this is just astounding incompetence or it's a disinformation operation it's it's one or the other there's no there's no there's no gray area here this is this is binary. It's zero or one. And and look, I you know, he could have misspoken. Uh fine, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt the first time.
He did it twice. And now let's let's be analytic about this. Um Aeros historical report was from an analytic perspective atrocious. It was it was astoundingly it was awful. It was one of the worst pieces of of >> It was a dog's breakfast.
What it is? A dog ate my homework. I I wouldn't even call it a report. And then and then you had this absurd explanation for some of your viewers might remember um during the the the big UFO hearing. Matt Gates, congressman from Florida, um described a UAP incident that occurred that Air Force personnel felt obligated to report to his office. There's a reason they went to his office and not up the chain of command, I suspect.
um a pretty remarkable incident and Arrow put out this they called it a case resolution report that said it was some some kind of high-end lighting balloon that that even Mick West didn't buy this that MC West is some of your viewers know is is perhaps the most notable um UAP skeptic in the world. he didn't buy this explanation of their their first, you know, their their primary culprit for this incident and and any number of you get into the radar issues. We don't need to belabor get into the nuances, but the point is Kirk Patrick's comments to me come in a in a much broader patchwork, quilt work of nonsense and absurdity that is coming out of Arrow, which looks exactly like what we saw with Blue Book following the the Robertson panel in 1953. Well, Marik von Reningamp, let's just hope that in 30 years time you and I aren't still tilting at windmills looking for Pentagon truth and honesty on the subject of UAPs. I sincerely hope we get an answer, any kind of answer sometime soon.
Merrick van Renamp, thank you so much for joining reality check and helping me analyze the Lou Alzando interview and imminent book. Look forward to talking to you again soon. >> Ross, thanks so much for having me. [Music]