MIT Cold Fusion IAP 2014 Friday January 31, 2014 (Full Lecture)

Transcript

well welcome uh survived 4 days of grueling class today's the 5ifth and um as you know there'll be a final so as uh as usually is the case I uh begin my presentation with a warning uh if if there happens to be anybody listening to this or watching this that is not aware of the danger of being associated with this field let me make it perfectly clear if you work in the field your career will be destroyed if you are even interested in it it has the potential for being damaging to your personal professional life um I just I just yesterday last Saturday I heard hoing passed away and uh you know so so you know as much as I I I was frustrated uh but now I you know wish him all the peace to him so he has passed away last let's take a moment and uh honor the passing of kaena Okay so yesterday we covered lots and lots and lots of stuff so much stuff that wouldn't even put on a slide we were interested in the issue of where the energy goes we noticed from the earlier day that there are no uh energetic nuclear products that helium for uh is measured and amounts commenor the excess energy if the helium 4 is born with some energy then we ought to be able to detect it using the padium deuterides as a nuclear detector once through that argument we found that the helium 4 the alpha particle is born with an energy less than conservatively 20 Kilts which has it with less than 0.1% of the reaction energy is measured experimentally at least in two experiments um so so the question is is where does the energy go and turning to experiment uh I proposed an interpretation of the two laser experiment shine two lasers on excess heat stimulated turn the two lasers off the excess heat persists but the idea is that may be the excitation of the optical phonon modes of the difference frequency is causing the energy produced in the nuclear reactions to be drawn into the optical pH the just a question in that experiment you used 700 go magnetic field why um Dennis Leets had noticed in earlier work that if you added magnetic field it made it work better and so he tended to keep the magnets there for all the other experiments and the hopes that would make it work better you you you think it's it's necessary uh let's had some experiments with the magnets not there and those experiments didn't work in that series okay so excess heat stimulated by detarium flux detarium flux detarium going from octahedral site to octahedral site we argued is um effective at uh creating Optical phonon mode excitation we identified the biggest Theory problem as the fractionation of large Quantum namely if you've got a me scale Quantum and the energy is going into vibrational modes that have small fraction of an eeve then the question is how do you take the big Quantum and chop it up into many small Quantum and convert the energy efficiently and we found last time that the ly spin both on model um shows efficient coherent energy exchange under conditions of fractionation in fact we introduced a toy model then which was perfectly capable of taking a large Quantum and chopping it up into as many small Quant as you like and exchanging the energy uh coherently um we were interested in the issue of columnated xrite emission uh primarily in the car boot experiment earlier observation by GOI and in the experiments of Cornel and vski um so the conjecture there the interpretation that I was I'm offering is that uh this is an up conversion of vibrational energy resulting in nuclear excitation um in order to account for this theoretically the ly spin boson model being a TW model he needed a full industrial strength model and uh the coupling to produce nuclear exploitation needed to be very strong and that led us to a new hamiltonian for condensed matter that includes phonon nuclear coupling um that hamiltonian although we introduced it as being new in a sense it's not really new it's the hamiltonian that you would actually write down from the standard model if you wanted to include vibrational nuclear coupling if you thought that a generalized F twos and rotation wasn't going to rotate out the first order strong coupling the strong first order coupling okay so we're interested in a new condensed matter model um before proceeding let me emphasize that the ideas under discussion here uh constitute one line of thought one that that I've been following along with uh one of my colleagues um there are other models um there are many other models there are over a thousand Theory papers in the field um the single most uh successful model in terms of uh gaining acceptance is the Wham lson model uh there my understanding at this point is there's more than a thousand physicists and scientists that are now supporters of Wham Marson and it's uh sufficiently compelling that it provides the the basis for an effort at uh NASA so there um it it's gotten a lot of press so for those of you who are followed it are interested in it you know there's lots of information available but the basic idea is that uh in this model electrons gain Mass through interactions with um excited plasma modes and gaining mass that it is available to take reactions which would normally go one way and some the other way so Wham and Larson proposed that this heavy electron can undergo weak interaction with the proton make a neutron the soft Neutron with long wavelength they propos can make it to another nucleus and cause transmutations and do other things so again the single most widely accepted model at this point um Wham a particle physics uh particle physicist with an excellent reputation and uh again I recommend that you if you're interested follow their papers um Kim's got a model based on a Bose Einstein condens it and Kim argues that we've got a way to overcome the kolon barrier directly in uh this Bose Einstein model his model has a lot of followers uh including de cion who's recently adopted Kim's model as an explanation for their nickel hydrogen results um prep Rada is a famous particle physicist in Italy was a close uh collaborator with uh Martin fman um he had very interesting ideas about uh coherent energy exchange and um if you like fractionation philosophically the ideas I'm discussing here are reason closely related to the philosophy and ideas of uh prepara uh even though prepa has been gone now for for many years uh his ideas are still extremely influential in Italy um Takahashi has a model based on essentially kic collapse the idea is that if deuterons or even protons and electrons in the classical problem if they maintain relative separation you can achieve a configuration where it's tracted and the classical problem can collapse he he proposes that in the quantum problem can collapse as well uh his model has quite a few followers in Japan and also elsewhere and you'll find that at this point there are uh models now appearing in the mainstream physics journals um a very good uh physicist who's recently joined the field Mark Davidson has had a paper accepted on this problem and foundations of physics no less than foundations of physics um so the wam law model you mentioned transmutation so that would be a cold fusion model we considered I think Wham and Larson consider their model to explain um pretty much everything that happens in the field and things happening in other fields as well but it does to explain the excess heat effect um they they claim it it accounts for the excess SE effect so if so you mentioned there may be a thousand scientific proponents of that particular model that's what I have heard okay so if there's a th so I'm just trying to put things in relative perspective so if there's a thousand um folks who follow you know who support that model in some way or believe it that would indicate there's a thousand scientists or researchers who are acknowledging The credibility of the ex heat effect in the field so I guess the question would be if if there's a thousand people that are following it and feels credible but the scientific community in general is not recognized in the field you know it's credible what how many does it take how many more you know it's a thousand is it 10,000 how many are there I don't know if there are a thousand I've heard there's uh a very large number I have met some uh some of my colleagues who um are very enthusiastic supporters of Wham and Larson don't want to hear about anything else so I tend to be fairly fanatical in terms of their um acceptance of but I don't know if there's a thousand um I I don't actually think uh there's any number that's uh sufficient in order to get the scientific community on board for being interested in this field I I don't actually think it's going to happen wow okay let me go back along the lines so I was arguing from the previous uh discussions so excess heat inflation of ponds exper expent challenges uh textbook condensed matter Nuclear Physics um car boot's columnated X-rays and might view present a similar challenge there are many other anomalies there's tridium production there's U low energy nuclear missions um you first reported by Steve Jones observed by Kevin wolf many Publications by pan boss and the spay work group um there and anomalies which will be on our slides shortly that are not described by condensed matter and nuclear uh textbooks um to account for the colate admission of carbid experiment using the approach that that uh we've been focusing on we found that we needed a very strong coupling between vibration internal nuclear degrees of freedom which led us to a new but in a sense not new um fundamental hamiltonian okay so because we're having an exam later today I wanted to present some equations which you're going to be respons be tested on so this is a model that's used for that you will find in in the textbooks to describe condensed matter physics and if you look at this you should see a kinetic energy for the nuclei kinetic energy for the electrons repulsion between the electrons repulsion between the nuclei and attraction between the nuclei and the electrons so as we argued before hamiltonian is a very efficient way of get letting you get to see what's in your model here's the hamiltonian we see what's in this model and this model has been very successful since the 1930s maybe in late 1920s in accounting for um Atomic physics molecular physics and uh condensed matter physics um there are different degrees of freedom in the model there's electronic degrees of freedom there's nuclear degrees of freedom electrons move much faster than the nuclei so you can separate separate out the electronic degrees of freedom that was done using the born oppenheim approximation ages and ages ago if you use the born oppenheim approximation you can get a new hamiltonan that talks about the nuclear kinetic energy repulsion between the nuclei themselves and there's an electronic uh energy contribution and this can allow you to isolate your attention on vibrations in molecules or solids amorphous solids or ordered solids if you like now in the new model that's under discussion um all of electron kinetic energy electron nuclear the kulum interactions are kept exactly as they were in the models in the textbooks the only thing that's happening is that the what used to be the kinetic energy of the nuclei is being replaced by a relativistic description and the relativistic description basically says take qcd take uh QHD Quantum hydrodynamics take whatever is your favorite um model for the nuclear States and solve for the energies in the rest frame put them in a diagonal matrix and then if you're going to move it there's going to the center of mass motion is going to cause a coupling between these rest frame States boosted States or it's transformed it's modified squashed all these things happen so that goes into a coupling Matrix which is off diagonal and um so this is the new uh description now for the nuclear States and the coupling with the vibrations how big are these matri um this one's a infinite in size there's an infinite number of states if you're complete in practice probably you can get away with the subset of the state so in general can be finite maybe gigantic um if you're actually going to use it for a calculation you might be able to get by with only using a few of the energy levels and a few of the coupling uh coefficients so there's there's a route to be able to get uh numbers out of this kind of model practically more question is are there any computer codes that allow you to you know if you use a large number of paper solve um this equation is a formidable equation to solve and then the moment there are no codes that's going to give you General Solutions of it on the other hand for special cases you can reduce it down to an equivalent lity spin boson model that can be solved and I have solved such models and it can be solved numerically it can be solved analytically can we solve approximately we've got all kinds of methods to solve it at this point so practically we can actually do something with this as a starting place now um before we talked about textbook model we could eliminate separate the electronic nuclear degrees of freedom in this new model we can do the same thing here's the answer for the nuclear kinetic energy now we still have the more General uh description Kum interaction between the nuclei electronic interaction or electronic energy there's another term here and the idea is that the uh nuclear vibrating you have the possibility of coupling energy to the electrons and promoting them and having energy loss and so I've written in that as a as a loss operator which is a way to keep track the that kind of thing happens probably we ought to remember it and use it in our calculations you might say well didn't include that in the last one well could have and in the textbook models certainly um phone on El coupling has known and included and is described in the literature so um I would be on solid footing by including exactly the same loss operator in the textbook model although people don't usually write it that way it could be written that way I'm writing it this way in order to emphasize that there is loss here and the loss that comes about from that process is sort of exactly what you need to get a lossy spin bosan model out of the problem finally as as argued it's possible to start from this complicated model and reduce it down to something simpler so for example if one vibrational mode is very high L excited then perhaps the others don't do very much so maybe we forget about them so here's the highly excited oscillator uh vibrational mode and um maybe maybe two levels are uh more important than all the other levels in your calculations so here here's two level system but many of them at the different sites and here's the coupling between the vibrations and the nuclear excitation here's the loss we have lossy spin boson model which we can derive from our fundamental hiltonium uh so energy levels in some cases we know them because they're in the nuclear databases F on modes the modes and the frequencies are available in condensed matter literature the way that the um nuclei move and connectional vibrations is well known that problems in M matter literature a coupling between uh different states well that's not quite as easy to get right now we we've not got such good models for that the other hand uh in some cases the coupling coefficient is similar to that that appears in dipole transitions so one can imagine in some cases of using approximation where one takes a DI transition equivalent uses a first approximation for the mass weighted equivalent and and off you go so that there's actually a way to evaluate this and get numbers um let me talk briefly about the issue of coupling to the radiation field I in an ear in a paper some years ago I sent it in without any coupling the radiation field and reviewers jumping up and down saying well radiation field comes in a certain way you should add it in this in the standard way so I rewrote some of the paper and I put that in I said well you can add the radiation field in a standard way a little bit later I started thinking I thought well this this works a little bit different the different nucleons they all have roughly the same mass but they don't have the same charge so when you calculating these matrices you're going to get one Matrix for the mass and you're going to get a slightly different Matrix for the charge so the form is sort of the same it's not quite standard form but it's close enough that we recognize it we can deal with it so we now have mass energy coupling to vibrations coupling to transverse radiation field and then we've got in the coolum gauge the longitudinal interactions Bop electron energy loss basically we've got a an adequate place to start so there there we go and the adequate place to start if you like is it's it's not intended to be anything new it's it's tended to be just an expression of standard model physics applied to condensed matter including interactions between vibrations and uh internal nuclear degrees of freedom to take away me message textbook condensed matter cannot describe the anomals proposal here is to upgrade the starting place to include coupling with internal Nu nuclear States and the approach uh suggested here is not one of Reinventing physics or coming up with a new coupling interaction new mechanism new anything the uh proposal here is just to take advantage of the physics that's in different textbooks um so the idea is that the new model in uh in this discussion is put forth as being just simply a little bit better model than the one we had before we we don't lose any earlier physics all the physics is in the textbooks is pretty darn good physics and we'd like to keep it and using this approach there's no problem with keeping it at all in fact we can derive the earlier physics directly from this somewhat more General hamiltonian and in the limit that the general I SP Tu and applies we can separate the strong first order coupling and we get textbook physics and the limit that loss prevents application generalize fil tuen when we get into a new regime where we get new physics going on and this suggestion here is we we now have the possibility of a systematic theory for treatment of uh basically all the anomalies systematically oh take away message I get to catch my breath questions comments do any of the other theories um that that that's tricky and the reason that It's Tricky is because uh in in some cases the uh proponents have argued that they obviously explain caribu and um so I I I I I will put that forth as a response I in some cases I I don't see it but I'm not I'm not them and I don't have the Insight they do into their models how possible is it that several of these might be correct you're describing here sounds like basically the teral deration of physics more accurately done and that seems like whe other the might be correct not Onasis so it's really a choice between which of these insights are all correct your question's a great question um there has been discussion um Prep Prep R had an answer to your question that uh that he used to expound at conferences at very high volume and prep prepa's answer is that there's only one theory that can possibly be correct of course what followed and that's my theory that was prepa's uh approach and argument um the models themselves uh the the proponents of the different models do not recognize the theories as being the same and uh if you talk to whittam and Marson they will tell you that their model is correct and that what I'm doing is just you know completely you know off track Takahashi will tell you that his model is correct and that I'm just uh you I've wandered off into a regime that's unproductive so I I I I think the answer is probably no at this point other questions only easy questions normally if you you had a good model or good theory you should be able to predict what may happen in the future spr does Willam and Larson have any predictions they have lots of predictions and and my understanding is that na NASA's made an effort to follow up on their predictions is it possible that using this Theory to predict the production of xrays this environment I I argued uh yesterday uh towards the end when I was flipping through view graphs at light speed you know one every tenth of a second and talking at three times normal speed right argued that we had um our first indication finally that this new model um appears to predict uh fra inverse fractionation um surprisingly uh relevant to fractionation observed in Carib boots experiment and and and also in the we should expect xrays also in the conclusion experiment that is um a good question um certainly x-rays have been observed um having fundamental hamiltonian doesn't mean that all the calculations are done at this point so your question is a good question but I want to differ on the answer you mentioned other anomalies trium and low energy nuclear um what does Wham and Larson say about these other n anomalies um and the my understanding from the uh from what's been written by them and by others about the model is that it provides a con comprehensive treatment of all anomalies systematically I I'm not familiar with the detailed descriptions as to how to do it and predictions from the models and so I mean I I I've read many of their papers I've written you know discussions technical discussions of technical issues on their papers but uh you know the the the claim is very general and very broad at the moment for wom the Mars thank okay let's return now to the exos problem so we now have a fundamental model that we think should describe uh excess heat effect um if you like the basic spin boson model l e St boson model says two level system linear coupling and an oscillator if the coupling is strong enough if there's enough of them you should be able to fractionate the quantum now the headache with a D2 to helium 4 transition is that it's hindered by the coolum barrier so it's only weakly coupled so it cannot be sufficiently strongly coupled to fractionate the large quum by itself so this this was understood um more than a decade ago with respect to these models um we proposed uh early on a more complicated scheme which basically said let the D2 to helium 4 transition be a weakly coupled transition and let there be another transition which is strongly coupled so the idea is that the D2 to helium 4 would provide the excitation of the energy it would be transferred to the strongly coupled system the strongly coupled system would slice and dice it up fractionate the quantum and allow the whole thing to go so this is called the donor receiver model we have a toy model the donor receiver model that works this way the model's constructed it's analyze we understand what the model says how it works what it does and um at this point um uh in in coming months and years the idea is to take some of these ideas and models and connect it with the new fundamental hamiltonian try to put everything together actually some progress along those lines has been made which I will I will point to as we go on so the simplest theoretical approach using these ideas is to say two Lev system D2 to go helium for 24 M Quantum highly excited phonon mode fractionate the big Quantum so this is the first problem of this class focused on and it didn't take very long to come to the conclusion that there was no way in the world that would work so this one got taken out to the back buried another Tombstone along with her by now over 300 other the uh the donor receiver model basically says um D2 to helium 4 week coupling to the phonon mode Let's introduce another system say another nuclear transition which has very strong coupling so the idea is that you start here you make a transition down here exchange one phonon the but this is a coupled Quantum system so the excitation goes over here and uh when it goes over there because the coupling is strong this system has the possibility of subdivision and fractionation and reducing the large Quantum into many smaller quantum so here's what the associated hamiltonian looks like so now we have two sets of two Lev systems a donor system receiver system we've got our oscillator we've got our loss and then we have weak coupling like we had before for the Doner system and we have strong coupling for the receiver system so here here the model this model has been known for uh a decade or so uh to be able to work um pretty much like what's needed consistent with a scheme to get excess heat in the strong coupling limit uh we can get airon Fest type equations again and we get a nonlinear oscillatory behavior and we get a a rate which as various terms and these terms are interesting we can understand them uh okay I don't have the slide I'm looking for so I get to explain it here 4 V of n/ H bar this is the rate that you would get if the donor were perfectly matched to the receiver and there was no fractionation going on the E to the minus G is the coolon barrier so you're going to get that for a donor transition no matter what and what's going on over here is um basically the receiver trying to accept the energy so this is basically hindrance Factor um and the hindrance factor is sort of the same idea for the hindrance factor for the L C spin BOS on model if the coupling is strong enough if you have enough two Lev systems it's close enough to being on resonance then it can work but this also had some other physics in it if you made a toy model and you calculate things out it sort of looks like this and you say well this is really complicated what the heck is going on well this peak right here is one that says the donor transitions got 151 Quantum the receiver transitions got 151 Quantum so donor and receiver sort of are matched and you get a resonance but this one says suppose the donor transition is 300 Quantum and the receiver is 150 then basically what's going on here is that two receivers re are being excited so a big donor is transferring the energy and now two receivers get the energy and they slice and dice it up this one's three and four and five and so in in this uh simplistic calculation what we're seeing is a subdivision effect so instead of having to take the whole big Quantum and chop it up by root Force you can take it you can subdivide it into two or three or four and depending on the parameters of the model the model can tell you how how much subdivision you can have and then you can have your fractionation so the this model sort of already has the subdivision fractionation and you know again that that was that was observed years ago when we first started working with these um models so the new model says strongly coupled receiver allows the donor to give the energy to the receiver oscillator system reaction ratees linear in the coupling Matrix element that's actually a gigantic issue because that means the telling Factor comes in only once so eus G for the molecular D2 is 10- 35 but normal Fusion is going to go like eus 2G and eus 2G is 10- 70 so in the case of a molecule the incoherent rate um the the tunneling Factor associated with it would make the incoherent process the 35 orders of magnitude slower um so this is actually a big deal but maintaining I had argued last time that we' wanted to maintain a coherent uh process and this is actually the reason that we'd like to have a coherent process this actually explains for an ex uh within the model how to overcome the barrier and if you like we we don't overcome the barrier um we accept the coolum barrier as it is but it just comes into to the problem once rathered than twice the Excess power rates in the new model um if you plug into a calculator punch in numbers the best numbers that you can find the the better the numbers are the closer the rates seem to be to the experimental values which which is which is interesting takeaway message takeaway message d24 two weekly coupled make use a different transition for fractionation we've got a toy model that implements this idea if the receiver can't fractionate Quantum there are no reactions at all uh if the receiver fractionates large Quantum efficiently then the rate limiting thing is the Doner Dynamics and we can evaluate that separately is the fractionation the slow part or is it the phone on coupling from the subdivision to the fractionation I I I think either can be the slow part okay I I I think there are uh systems in which pretty clearly the iners fractionation or fractionation is limiting things there are other systems which look very much like the fractionation works about as good as it can possibly work and the donor Dynamics would be rate limiting I I think within the realm of experimentation already done it looks to me like both limits are present thank you other thoughts or comments or questions okay so let's consider some particular schemes so we're thinking have a theoretical picture now for excess heat I have a toy model analysis that uh elucidates the mechanisms so we have fractionation we have excitation transfer we got a fair amount of stuff going on but the models they're not terribly complicated and you can analyze and look at them and see how every piece of it works now we can turn back to experiment my question is can we identify model components and different experiments I'm I'm looking at the slide and I'm thinking well this sounds very straightforward this sounds very simple what what the slide isn't saying is that this took a decade with a very large number of failures and tombstones out in the back there were four major attacks on the problem each one which went on for year or more identifying a candidate donor or candidate receiver system and analyzing it to to death and having everything not work not work again and again and again so I'm I'm looking at this slide and I'm thinking if you only knew so the at the moment the schemes that are under consideration sort of look like this let's consider the the vanilla flan pawns experiment so the the donor reaction sort of Simply is du2 helium for transition the receiver is if you like deuterons Scrat and say well why deuterons well if you think about it the uh vibrational mode uh implicated in the let's experiment is an optical phon mode and if you go and you calculate the optical phonon modes the deuterons are light the Palladiums are heavy so that deuterons are moving but the plums are B plaum nuclei basically just sitting there so if you're going to fractionate a Quantum whoever is going to fractionate the quantum has to be moving so the only candidate um in a PDD system then is the deuteron the question is can a deuteron fractionate a Quantum so the new model was used on a transition in the deuteron and we we calculated the associated Matrix element um at that time we didn't have the full analysis looking back on it now the Matrix element we calculated was too small to do the job that's because we went we took a weak we identified a weak transition on the other hand the analysis gave us selection rules the selection rules are really interesting the selection rules said that basically if you had a magnetic field and you oriented at sort of the way let was oriented mitell was orienting at that you got a big advantage and that you should see a big effect having to do with the magnetic heeld now transition is not the right transition but the selection rules would apply pretty much to any transition of in quantum numbers so the transitions which we think now are the right transitions would work the same way and have the same selection rules so this is the the basic thinking for vanilla fleshman fonds now in just just to understand that the a star the re was the a star transition to a so the Deon in the excited state and the Deon in let's say not excited state if you like um the deuteron has a ground state and if you have a an a matrix element and you go to a positive energy State there's a localized positive energy state which is a candidate which seemed to us to be our best shot at a state in a transition and we calculated that out and we just perfectly good transition you can carry through the calculation you can execute everything given the U approximations they're normally made in nuclear physics and you can get an answer out today I look back at that and look at the number and say well that's too small to do the job I need a bigger coupling I need a stronger coupling well it turns out that the excited POS of energy state that we looked at is one transition other transitions as well some the other transitions have much stronger coupling and those other transitions which have much stronger coupling would have coupling Matrix elements that should be big enough to do the job so that we' got to go redo the analysis and calculate things out so hopefully this year sometime we're going to come back and try to beat that problem up some more so in the single laser experiments um so these experiments if you like they're a little bit different we got a 2vt red laser coming in the surface we saw that it turned the heat on and turned the heat off the donor reaction D2 to helium 4 um so the excitation that's coming in is like 2 volts or there about so there's no vibrational modes at 2 volts but there are surface plasma noes but the surface plasma nodes have some non-trivial coupling with the Optical phone on modes so uh the thinking here is is that the hybrid plasma Optical phonon mode so the Plasma's moving the lighter nuclear moving along with it little a small amount but a small amount is actually good enough and uh so this would be the oscillate in this case and light nuclei the moving of deuterons so once again the deuterons would be the receiver only in this case instead of being an optical phone on mode it would be the plasma Optical pH on not hybrid would be oscillating let's consider another example um in experiments uh the cryogenic experiments at SRI uh some experiments were done with um light water in Palladium and uh excess energy um was observed there there are other examples um there are not as many the for many years light water and padium was thought to be um inert and uh you know was used a control experiment um there are experiments now which suggest that it is possible to get excess heat from light Water Ordinary water or light Water Ordinary water why I say light water I'm meaning ordinary water so the thought here is that instead of DD going to helium 4 it's HD going to helium 3 and in this case you know if you follow the same arguments well if you know again we we don't we don't have a to laser experiment for a light water plaum experiment we don't have this we don't have that so in a region where this is more uh speculated and conjecture the thinking is is that if you have Optical phonon mode excitation got HD to helium 3 transition to get the energy question is is what's the receiver well you got deuterons you got protons you got many more protons deuterons so the thinking is is that the proton has the possibility of being a receiver in this uh configuration and uh at this point um I I'm I'm looking forward to calculating out the proton as a possible receiver to see what the strength is so um as well as D reaction there's also HD reaction which yeah it would be consistent with everything else that we've uh thought about and described so far so I'm looking at it as a serious candidate is any in were um as I will emphasize shortly um there are no experiments where healing 3 has been seen in the gas phase the other hand there's there's no experiments with the normal water normal light water contaminate light water contaminated through cerium that's shown excess heat that's been put in front of a helium 3 detector we we had funding lined up to do that with a pantell experiment at one point and then uh it was it was found to be inconsistent with the wishes of uh the folks involved in the uh energy initiative at MIT so it was cancelled so chance to get exactly that measurement which would have been an incredibly important measurement uh didn't happen there's no resources to get it done okay there are um there are hot spots in uh observed in some case in padium deuteride uh experiments this case the thought being that uh associated with the hotpots perhaps we've got compressional acoustic modes um being the excited mode and the donor reaction D2 to helium 4 again but this time instead of deuterons or protons being a receiver if you got acoustic mode well the Palladium is moving and padium uh is doing a lot of moving and has most of the energy so in this case the proposed receiver would be the padium nucleum um so there there are U hot spots if the Palladium is being involved for receiver duties then there's going to be the possibility of internal energy and the padium in our trans transitions to positive States some of which um uh can dissociate or disintegrate um and in connection with this there's uh been observed for years Elemental uh anomalies So within this particular scheme if you've got acoustical mode operation then your host Lattis is going to be involved as a receiver those are conditions under which you have the possibility of getting acoustical anomalies if you're trying to make a heat commercial excess heat system probably having your post metal disintegrate might not be the optimum thing that you want to do in the case of Palladium disintegration Palladium is very exothermic and I'm thinking that that's why the hot spots are hot because you get a boost from the Palladium disintegration Palladium is very expensive you'd like not to disintegrate your Palladium so this experiment the uh frequency can be also lower than one so because the acoustic modes are acoustic modes in padium D go up to 5 plus terz um there's not been any studies that I'm familiar with showing excess heat is a function of acoustical mode excitation in the fles and font so but in this particular case if if there were some generic experiment where you could tune it back and forth um I would expect the Optical phone on mode excitation to lead to clean excess heat without much disintegration and then tuned down and drive it an acoustical mode range I would expect that you start to se disintegration of the poost metal L okay nickel hydrogen um so although we haven't quite gotten to it and we'll get to it shortly um excess heat has been observed in the light water nickel hydrogen system where light water when I use thee light water means Duan contamination so in this case um in the case of nickel uh the solubility we're going to talk more about this but the solubility of H isn't very good so you have a problems getting an optical phone on mode that's delocalize in the first place so the thinking is is that HD going to Healing 3 uh is the source of the energy receiver is going to be nickel nuclei in the asence of an optical phon on mode and I I'm of the opinion that the Telly experiment and some the nickel hydrogen powder experiments work this way now you can load nickel hydrogen uh electrochemically you can load it actually high enough to to get an optical phonon mode so I'm actually of the opinion that electrochemical nickel hydrogen uh nickel hydride experiments um probably are Optical phone on mode experiments in which case they they wouldn't have the issue with respect to the transmutation so would you expect that if we actually did an experiment like this with 100% pure light water with no narium at all we wouldn't see anything that that would uh that would be a possibility now there's one experiment that's been reported that claims to be exactly that bush and anklet years and years and years ago worked with uh light water under conditions where they said there was no duaring in the system at all they ran it they saw it perfectly fine excess heat so I'm I'm looking at that experiment scratching my head so it it it is an experiment which if I if I accept you know blows a hole through the uh the conjecture but um we'll talk a little bit more about that whose work with us was that bush and Eagleton or to follow on from that if we've got low concentrations of duum to first order if this is true wouldn't we like we double the Concentra of expect to see tce the see what's the What's the phrase great great minds gravel in similar gutters or something the same thought occurred to me to mention I'll talk a little bit about some results from that um if you my response to this is that why don't we hook up a helium 3 detector next to Nickel hydrogen experiment and see if we get helium 3 um the chelani experiment um so in chelan's experiment he's working with a nickel alloy uh and in his nickel alloy alloy he gets much higher solubility of hydrogen so in this case HD to helium 3 I'm proposing is the donor reaction now if you've got high solubility you have a chance of having Optical phun on them so in this case h or D nuclei would be the receiver and compressional Optical phone on Ms for the um ocelate so I I'm of the opinion that shani's experiment is is an incredibly important experiment because it's got a rather cheap alloy with cheap nickel alloy with high hydrogen solubility of course there issues he processes it in order to get Nano structure internally so it's not just a piece of constancy okay so takeaway message so we have donor and receiver schemes um for excess heat not just one there's there's quite a few of them um I think that there's two primary donor transitions for the excess heat D2 to Healing 4 HD going to Healing 3 um there are there are other uh possibilities as well uh you could have T and H going to helium cor of course working with tea is problematic because you don't really want to have a lot of tre in the laboratory and so forth um in terms of uh traum production if you got D2 going to an HT um molecule that would be a natural way to extend the kind of this scheme uh for stationary trium production um you would expect if you're making a molecule with the maximum rate for trading production the orders magnitude down for heling for and that sort of is Inc consistent with experimental observations we have no experimental evidence at present at present bring in three as a product and that's just going to be number one on my wish list for further experimentation for nickel hydrogen uh expect light nucleas receivers for optical fun on mode operation and light nucleas receivers my view is sort of clean um expect heavy nucleus receivers for physical mode uh operation and heavy I have internal transitions of positive energy states which are potentially accessible which leads to loss of your primary energy that you're making and destruction of your host M that's bad in my view oh takeaway message questions comments thoughts I know that rosi claimed that n can transmit it in Copper and uh to to find some support to the hypothesis he told that the ratio of Isotopes in such copper in the resulting piece after the reaction takes place is different than natural occurs um I I I'm not going to comment I I'm familiar with those claims I'm not going to comment on them here however we'll talk about the problem short I'll present some observations this is general question but is it easy to uh distinguish between as a mass gas between HD and helium 3 uh so a few days ago I showed the mass spectroscopy showing the D2 line and showing the helium 4 line which a good Mass spectrometer is able to separate uh turns out uh 8 HD and helium 3 are much closer together so you actually need a much better Mass spectrometer and you have to really worry about the separation um of the HD you have to remove a lot of HD to get the heling three line to you know so so one doesn't swamp the other so you can't see them other question just to be clear don't HH retion well there there's of course a an HH reaction that that if you like two h's that go to helium 2 but helium 2 is unstable so you possibility of a p plus P plus a beta Decay reaction get into deuteron which is what's thought to happen in the Sun for uh proton uh burning the only issue is is that because a weak interaction Decay process is involved there's no possibility of having a coherent I I don't think there's a possibility of having a coherent version so I I don't think you can get p plus uh P making uh um a dudon associated with this kind of scheme have to go through and analyze and double check all the fine print everywhere but at the moment I I don't think that's consistent with the scheme this may be a silly question because I'm not familiar with cond matter in general but um the coupling mechanism that you're talking about inoc spin go on all is coupling mechanism some number large number of photons between uh no nuclear the the the coupling mechanism the the a do CP interaction is one that says exchange one phone on and raise or lower a nuclear transition that's all there is to it so it's it's only one phon on Quan of time but as we recognize the lossy spin boson model does a fractionation or inverse fractionation by having many of these things happen while coherence is maintained so you can have a large number of quanta by many sequential coherent single Quant events there's no Photon in in the mix between well there there is a there is a photon emission Matrix element but the proposal here within the velocity spin boson type modle modle I'm talking about is all of the interactions going on with the highly excited vibrational mode so it's all phone on Exchange so just directly from yeah it was reported that n does not work with theum in some reports uh so uh why in your model there is the the is required so okay there are some experiments um for example the SRI cryogenic experiments where duum was running nickel and the results were not terribly different from duum in uh padium so from from my perspective uh dyum um is in this scheme is happy in a in a nickelus and D2 formation near a vacancy all that should work similarly um I think there are there are issues um with respect to um low solubility so if you have acoustic mode operation you put your energy in the nickel you disintegrates in your nickel so your your lattice has problems so you might expect degradation of the lattice itself so there may be other material science related reasons that might have to do with the difficulties involved I pantelli sees excess heat from nickel dearion but it's a much smaller level than for nickel hydrogen for example uh in one of your slides you proposed that the nucleus of Might receiver um and I understand that that depends to some extent on the um well basically at this point um I I you have equations you have the model you look at it and uh transitions to negative energy States look like they're by far the strongest uh transitions so omally I can have such transitions um the big issue is that if you have a heavy nucleus you've got a very large number of positive energy states which have coupling to it so so if you like that bad the the simpler lighter nuclei have much less of that so the if you like that the headache is is giving a nucleus energy in degrees of freedom where it can blow the nucleus up my my what I'm leading up to is if you used that experiment yeah at the moment my models wouldn't wouldn't uh wouldn't be thrilled I mean for example you can imagine having padium nuclei focusing on padium 102 rather than Palladium 104 105 106 108 110 and uh you know that would have pure neutrons but I don't I don't know that my model is going to care a lot about that one way or another okay let's think a little bit about maximum reaction rate within the model so the donor receiver model uh basically it says if the receiver can't fractionate no reactions happen if the receiver can fractionate really well then excess heat is limited by the transition and in that case you can you can figure out what the you can get a simple formula for the maximum reaction rate and the simple formula um in in general is this so you get the this is the piece that says that if the donors were matched to the oscillator perfectly and could give the energy up uh this would be how fast things would go um here's the kulum repulsion the tunneling factor to colum repulsion so a Dicky factor which basically says if you've got more of the donors around that's a good thing things happen faster it happens in a Dicky sense which basically says that if the reaction's been going on for a while then it's going to work better and then you get the hindrance Factor due to the receiver which we talked a little bit about uh uh previously so the question is is if you plug in numbers what do you get well in order to plug in numbers you need a calculation of the the DD to helium 4 Matrix element and as I remarked this was an effort was made to just calculate this out by by brute force and so we took the Matrix element we did a lot of algebra and numerical calculations and in the end we get an expression that looks like this so it's a preactor there's a CP so this gives you a single phoneon exchange there's the Kum tunneling Factor and this basically says that if it looks like a it's the size of a nucleus in of a molecule in vacuum then these factors are one but if the thing in the metal makes it bigger makes it smaller then you've got corrections to it also it basically says that um get the triplet p uh L equals 1 the selection rules actually when to have one unit of angular momentum in D2 initially so that there are selection rules associated with this another issue is that if you have compressional modes the compressional modes uh if you like squash the molecule the D get to be a little bit closer together the the tunneling factors can be very strong functions so you can have possibly a phon onchange associated with the tunneling Matrix element on top of everything else I I actually think that's a big issue so excitation of compressional Optical phonon modes are SE to be effective but excess heat production do the let's experiment and the one laser two laser experiments you wonder why and um uh one issue is that from the models you would expect x-ray emission or emission of other things connected to vibrations not to care whether you got compressional modes or transverse modes there's nothing in the theory that says you should care one way or another but compressional Optical fun mode may have an advantage because maybe you got some compression local compression in the deuteron a little bit compression translates into a lot of gamma Factor changes so I think that's why compressional modes are favor in the experiments thinking about the model so we have a rate formula rate formula the cool thing about the rate formula is it's understandable in fact before we had a model I was writing down rate formula it had the various terms sort of like like that um no reactions of the receiver can't subdivide fractioning the model the hindrance Factor ass to the receiver is a big deal basically if you don't make up conditions where fractionation occurs nothing's going to happen so for example if your vibrational Mode's not highly excited according to the model you're not going to get any reactions period thermally you're not going to get anything you have to have a highly excited vibrational mode to get things going if you think about it the the if you look at the experimental results for excess is a function of current density there's nothing and then it turns on and goes up linearly so this is sort of saying that if you believe that the current density gives you detarium flux detarium flux makes Optical fun on mode excitation nothing happens all until your Optical phot on excitation gets to be big enough and the threshold it's big enough and then reactions can proceed so curve flat and going up is the kind of thing you would expect from the associate hindrance Factor next biggest issue is the GMA factor for tunneling through Co barrier finally having more D2 is good and Dicky Factor increases the reaction which which basically means according to this there's going to be some history there's going to be some Dynamics Beyond just the simple reaction rate stuff and numerically the maximum reaction rate from the model calculates out to be consistent with experiment how does magnetism I'd argued earlier that for in the in the specific case of duum which is the one we've analyzed The Matrix element associated with the receiver has spin selection rules so basically it can couple to two of the nuclear spins out of three possible so you've only got 2/3 of the receivers doing anything if you add magnetization you can change the nuclear spin population it turns out in the model the the ability of the receiver to fractionate Quantum is exponential in terms of the number of re receiver nuclear have so if you put in magnetization you can get nuclear spin polarization you have the possibility of increasing the rates so if you're at a low hindrance factor and you double the uh number of nuclei participating you're going to get a gigantic increase in the ability of the system to fractionate and you're going to see a large impact of uh from a magnetic field and by the way the selection rules like I say seem to be consistent with the experimental observations for that I'm trying to get a physical picture of the coupling into the phone on mode I'm wondering what sort of volume would be necessary to not just have the local material kind of vaporized with 24 if you're coupling to pH but basic in my view if you've got a localized phone on mode you're not going to do anything you can't have enough nuclei coupled to it to make anything work you have to have a delocalized phone on mode so you have to have something big vibrating you have to have coherence in the vibrations over a large how large are we talking in in the let experiment there's this Dynamics the laser turns on the excess heat wonders up and depending on which frequency difference he hits that takes different times to wander up I'm scratching my head I'm thinking well laser is focusing down a millimeter the thing's a centimeter I'm actually thinking that what's going on is it starts out sort of it thing on a small scale and then it spreads out and eventually the whole thing's going I think it's a little bit like a laser mode that you know wherever coherent vibrations can be induced they're going to be induced the bigger the better and the model likes more so couldn't there be issues getting down to the real Nan materials the volume is just really too small to hold well the again in in the nanom materials depending on how many the raisins you have and how far separated that the vibrations have the possibility of talking to each other at the different and that that's a big issue and you one of these days I'm want to see Mitch will do experiments with high density of his raisins and then lower density of the raisins because at some point if that picture is right if they're too far away and you can't have a vibrational coupling then it shouldn't be able to do its Duty uh I'm going to run out of time um let me think back we talked on the first day about heena's three Miracles and I'm going to make this three Miracles plus I'm going to correct heena so we have a fusion rate Miracle how do we overcome the coolum barrier well in this model should don't overcome the coolum barrier what we do is we have it only come in once rather than twice and we pick up lots of orders magnitude and reaction rate by doing it so in this kind of scenario we are happy with the co per no special uh work to try to make it go away um branching ratio Miracle so if you get two deuterons close together and you have an incoherent process you got the 3 + 1 as the primary branching ratios so how do you do that how do you how do you muck with the microscopic physics for an incate fusion reaction my answer is you don't you can't that's impossible everybody knows that's impossible the only issue is is that because an incurrent reaction process has evenus 2G it's down by a Gaz orders of magnitude so this basically isn't going to happen and in the experiments it's observed not to happen so we're happy um number three um Isen a concealed product Miracle focusing on the 24m gamma I'm crossing that out and say well it's much bigger than that has to do with anything energetic coming out commensurate and if you take your big Quantum and you subdivide it and fractionate it want a small Quantum and the energy is going into other degrees of freedom so there's no no more miracle there's a natural explanation for it uh number four which heena didn't include but should have is that ex FL and P is just simply inconsistent with condensed nuclear physics and we need a rewrite of both starting at the beginning Okay so we've rolled up our sleeves and all we did is we had a better starting point and found some fine print and warranty for the generalized F evil twos and and we've got some know version of condens nuclear physics which seems to be quite relevant to the problem all right comments thoughts questions I think you focus a lot how to get rid of enery which I think is the biggest problem of all I'm not sure okay number one how can you overcome the Kum be so 1989 1990 um a number of physicists kunan and Na andberg and lots of others have focus on a D2 molecule problem which we talked about on day one and they said we can analyze this the fusion rate is terribly slow it's on the order of 10us 64 seconds per molecule and they said because that's small they they they next said that you would expect D2 do Fusion INF and dorite to sort of work the same way and have a similarly slow rate now that argument as we'll see shortly is wrong by more than 10 orders of magnitude but let's accept it uh uh anyway so the argument is given the situation given the slow rate for Fusion in the molecule how do you ever get two deuterons together and the answer is is for an incoherent process you can't ever get two deuterons together enough to do anything useful whatsoever it's not a relevant model on the other hand these new models are coherent and since they're coherent the formula for the reaction rate depends on the colum very differently so it only comes in once instead of twice so it only comes in once we're facing Aus G so it's it's almost as if uh you pick up all the 35 orders of magnitude you l in the molecule for an incoherent process for the extra e minus G you get back to the coherent so that that's the argument so we're we're not doing anything special overcome the Kum perod what we're doing is we're saying that this is a big problem if you have an incoherent process but if you have a coherent process then it's it's not an issue it's just it's just simply not that big of an issue it remains an issue as we'll talk about TR but it's nowhere near as big of an issue the coherence is key there and then for number two for number two uh if you have an incoherent Fusion react action then 2 + 2 goes to 3 + 1 50/50 roughly andena is saying okay you don't see 50/50 show me how in an incoherent reaction you deviate from 50/50 knowing full well that the answer is there's no way you can do that at all that's hopeless and my answer is is that let's not try to exchange let's not try to change the 2 plus 2 going to 3+ one branching ratio for the incoherent reaction let's keep it we're happy with incoherent reactions they don't happen so we're going to maintain the 50/50 branching ratio and the incoherent uh Pathways um because there's not nothing you can do about it the only thing is is the coherent reaction that's uh under discussion is a separate coherent pathway so it has its own rules and study its rules and it it favors helium 4 and it doesn't favor 3 + 1 3+ 1 would require molecular formation so they're going to be inhibited by orders of magnitude because you got a molecule rather than a single so in your view there is a No Ex triggering of the reaction VI to bombardment of let's say Ms or other particles so uh I'm I'm not going to say exactly that there's evidence that you can get big effects if you bombard with fast electrons or gamas we'll talk about that shortly okay let's talk about screening now so why are we interested in screening well we're interested in screening for the following reason we've seen that the coherent reaction rate is linear in the gamma Factor um and inqu reaction rates are quadratic in the gamma Factor um now the coherent business provides us a mechanism for quote unquote getting around the co except that you can't get around a coolum barrier we're happy with the coolum barrier um it's just less of an issue if it's only showing up once but it's still there once and because it's still there once we have to worry about screening so screening makes a huge difference even if you're only linear in the gamma factor that motivates us to consider screening effects and that drives us to consider low energy beam experiments so this this problem has been studied uh for a lot of different reasons why uh there's a very good nuclear physicist clus Ro who's been interesting interested in the problem for years and he had a group that studied it and then his students went on and collaborators went on and studied it so here's an example of um low energy deuteron beam experiment electron cyron resonance Source deuterons come through they hit a Target which is deuterated and then they have detectors uh to look for um Fusion DD Fusion products and what you see is um example in aluminum um so here's the energy Here's 2 Kilts 5 KS 10 KS 15 kts so these are low energy um deuteron beam reactions in the case of aluminum there's uh the the detarium and the beam comes in it plants itself in the aluminum another deuteron comes along and you get a fusion reaction and in this particular case it's plotted in terms of the s factor and the s factor is flat um if if there's no screening effects uh basically you take the cross-section you take out all the obvious uh energy dependence whatever is not obious is left is is what you're looking for so in case of aluminum the screening energy is 30 volts screening energy is defined sort of this way you start out with a an underlying picture for Kum repulsion that's exponentially screened and there's a distance character characteristic distance through screening and then the energy is going to e^ S over e characteristic distance so for example if your screening length is one4 radius. 529 angstroms then e squ over the four radius is going to be 2 by8 or 2 * 13.6 electron volts 27 electron volts so what we see is that um uh if two deuterons were brought together you would kind of expect the screening energy to be about 27 volts so in aluminum the number is less than 30 volts which is consistent with no screening effect whatsoever and uh padium what you see is a low energy you get an increase in the uh astrophysical s factor and in this particular experiment the screening energy is consistent with 800 uh electron volts which means the screening length is ridiculously small um and this is interpreted as being um experimental observation of large screening now uh over the years there's been experiments done on lots of different metal so this is z going from 0 to 90 um this is a screening energy electron volt so here's zero 200 400 600 800 so if we go to 46 on our dial there's a lot of experiments a lot of different energies the highest ones are near 800 which is consistent with the data that I showed you folks in literature kind of think that all these Mar SP on data points around 400 so the screening energy out to be closer to 400 uh theory if you do Thomas FY screening there's some calculations that show that you'd expect the screening energy to be close to 13 electron volts which would be sort of down down here if you look elsewhere if we look at nickel uh Nicholls here Nicholls got screening sort of a little bit like Palladium there's other guys that screen as well um these points are for the loading that was uh achieved in the experience so screening occurs it's a big effect um the screening impacts the incoherent Fusion rate so these curves are well known if you have a no well if you have screening for the molecule the uh calculated rate is somewhere uh right about here so this curve which looks like it's hitting the line here should imagine it goes all the way down to about uh here now if you have a screening energy of say 400 volts then your incoherent reaction rate goes from 10 65 up to I don't know 10us 10th or 13th or 14th or something so that's good for like 50 orders of magnitude so um some people have said that the lowle fusion effect seen by Jones is due to screening now there's experimental evidence in low energy beam experiments for there being a lot of screen training so they're saying well maybe the experiments you know low energy emission could be explained by that uh I'm I'm very skeptical that mostly because barasi did some thond Anvil loading experiments we put a lot of duum into padium had a neutron detector in didn't see didd Squat and if you actually had screening of this magnitude in in real life then uh he should have seen neutrons coming out but there there weren't neutrons coming out but what what this argues is that um um from the beam experiments we know that there uh is screening showing up you might say well maybe the kinetic experiments is a little bit different than the static experiment deuteron comes in hits another one maybe when they fuse they move maybe they go into outer orbitals of the nearby metal atom and maybe that gives you more screening but the um Thomas hermy screening numbers those are substantial and those you would expect in uh the static uh situation so we recall on day one we calculated the the uh uh screening for the D2 molecule in penetration this is 10us 40th and this is near one so you might look at that and say well we get 40 orders of magnitude but there's a radial Factor because this is p instead of R so it's actually 10us 35 so this is basically the molecule is basically consistent with the 10us 35 screening number um 10us 35 tunneling number but if you have screening you're going to get more penetration so conclusion from the theme experiments a very large very large screening effects are seen they're seen in metal targets but not in insulators also not in semiconductors uh rolfs interprets this in terms of device screening but uh I I kind of think that there are two issues one Thomas or more accurate many body electron screening models would be more relevant and for the static problem the dynamic problem I don't actually think I've seen a calculation of the dynamic problem uh yet I think the dynamic problem really has to solve be solved to understand these uh screening experiments um so somewhere between 2800 from the theme experiments the Thomas fmy number in shury 2004 is 133.0 electron volts and also large screening seen in nickel uh uh Ed storms has been interested for years in where the uh reactions happen he's got something calls the nuclear active environment and after some encouragement storms just recently specified exactly where he thinks the nucle active environment is and there's a paper that discusses this a lot in in essence his proposal is that if you have small voids or cracks then you get detarium formation or hydrogen formation voice of cracks now he's been encouraging me for a while to forget about this mono vacancy business and look at the voids and cracks so if I look at the voids and cracks well I can I can actually know quite a bit about voids and cracks so storms thinks that the active region are these small voids and small cracks and I'm thinking that the electron density the background electron density drops down very quickly away from the metal atoms so all I have to do is be like I don't know half an angstrum out of position next to a metal atom and your molecule becomes a molecule doesn't become a sigma Upon A dihydrogen complex a little bit separation so um so if you're molecule looks like a molecule and it's away from the metal you got no screening which means you would expect to see the molecular screening number you'd expect to see 25 27 Volts for the screening energy in this case and in this particular case then uh because you don't get the metal screening away from the surfaces in these small voids or cracks you're giving up more than 10 orders of magnitude in the C factor using this approach so I'm I'm of the opinion that you you really do want and need the um High electron density and having the metal atoms be nearby to do your screening I don't have a very good intuition for the screen energy that that you're talking about what that means could you relate that to reaction crosssection uh is that is it in some way sure I mean we we saw pictures of it for example for the astrophysical s factor as you go down and energy you basically get the standard number I think it's in these units I think it's like 50 or 50 or 70 or something like that and then if your screening numers 800 volts what happens is that here you're getting bigger and bigger and bigger and this is up at a few K and by the time you get down to small numbers this like orders and Orders of magnitude so basically the orders of magnitude we saw other plot this is just extending that curve down to low energy so basically the good way to think about it is here's the screening energy and here's the change in TN for the D2 molecule uh kind of problem not change in time change in rate which depends on E the minus g^ 2 okay so takeaway message big screening observed experiments expect not quite as big screening from Theory but that's not really right that's apples and oranges Thomas fery gives lower screening uh for the static problem but the beam problem is the dynamic problem and the dynamic problem um again I I haven't seen the papers yet where that's been analyzed in detail with modern models Mak orders a magnitude impact on gamma Factor uh we want to take advantage of Maximum screening to get maximum reaction rate um D2 and cracks and points wouldn't see it but D2 in a monov vacancy should see the screen because we're getting the D2 molecule form where there's some non-trivial amount of electron density we got nearby um outer orbitals and metal Catch My Breath questions comments okay what about nickel hydrogen I I said I promised I was going to talk about nickel hydrog on a Friday according in my watch it's Friday so before looking at the detailed experimental results excess heat is nickel hydrogen experiments the effect was discovered in the case of electrochemical experiment by Randall Mills and collaborator kisis um excess heat and gas loading experiments was published in 1994 the discovery was sometime earlier um a big issue is that nickel hydrogen is not plaum deuteride as we're going to as we're going to see we have to we have to think about the problem somewhat differently I mean nice thing about padium dor is we got a reference problem where a lot of work's gone on we got a lot of analysis we got some intuition now we'd like to think about nickel hydrogen sadly we're not going to be able to use all of our same intuition we'll be able to use some of our same intuition differences are important um the nickel hydrogen lattice structure looks like this as we can see this is this is different from the plaum deuteride L structure because uh now there's nickel atoms here and the padium atoms there's hydrogen here that's little bit smaller this part's nice um now we recalled our arguments about background electron density and the background electron density in the case of nickel is higher so we recall that according to embedded atom theory at least in one calulation the hydrogen was looking for 0.069 electrons per cuic GTRs which about here and what you get at the oite is up there so you'd expect oite occupation which is observed but because there's so much energy difference here we conclude that the solubility is going to be down so we take our intuition at some point we go to experiment and here's the experiment now even this phase diagram sort of looks qualitatively familiar these are the isotherms low loading that go up the pressure isotherm or the ism as a function of pressure here uh goes over here it's flat there's a Miss ability Gap sort of just like there was for blade Hydro bling dve the only thing is is that instead of having the curve this is 25 C somewhere here above above room temperature in January passeng we have um uh lines going back and forth but the pressure instead of being less than a tenth of an atmosphere is um 400 megapascals and uh I screwed up the number before one atmosphere is on the order of 100,000 megapascal so this 400 megapascal number is close to 4,000 atmospheres so in order to get across the Mis ability Gap you got to do some work let's think about this as compared with the equivalent padium uh dorite curve so here's tenth of an atmosphere below tenth of an atmosphere so you can load to the Miss ability Gap in plaum deuteride at relatively low number of atmospheres you want to get across the Miss ability Gap in nickel hydride near room temperature you got to go to 400 your way up here so if you think about it to get loading across the Miss ability Gap in nickel hydde you have to have electrochemical loading which is equivalent to being incredibly heroic in padium hydride padium deuteride you can load it but it's not easy so this is what we just argued now when you do load hydrogen in nickel Works differently than hydrogen padium so in hydrogen padium at low loading the hydrogen is randomly spaced and as the loading gets higher the loading is either randomly SPAC or there's some other phase perhaps the other phase involves hydrogen hydrogen correlations in nickel uh what you see is that um we do uh x-ray observations if you have loading um in the myability Gap region you don't see a lattice constant that correspond to miss ability Gap loading what you see is either nickel with now hydrogen or you see lus constant corresponding with the hydrogen at high loading so for example how do you explain this suppose you have nickel hydrogen loaded to 10% you do your X-ray measurement most of the nickel looks like it has no hydrogen some of the nickel looks like it's loaded to 7 what's the answer clumping the hydrogen likes each other and nickel so it clumps together you put in a little bit of hydrogen it segregates there some here a big Clump here big Clump here but mostly everywhere there's no hydrogen you just got bare nickel this is qualitatively different than how things work in padium hydde is subit this is important and and it's cool so hydrogen and clusters in nickel thought that hydrogen probably clusters and padium hydrate but it's a weaker effect um for example there's a conjecture that you can understand quantitatively the two-phase region and Miss ability Gap and plaum hydrite by saying your two phases one is random hydrogen the other is hydrogen pseudo molecules first example of clumping now we were interested in vacancy formation and we said it padium deide pum hydride you have to be loading at 095 to get your vacancy stable well the nickel you don't have to go up as high and if clumping gives you 0.7 wherever you Clump you put in hydrogen into nickel it clumps and it clumps at a density local density sufficiently High to stabilize vacancy formation sure we're we're definitely not in padium anymore this Does this does not happen in padium so H clusters and nickel there's not an intermediate loading uh phase observed in in uh lce uh constant measurements um and the loading that's observed is a loading sufficiently high to exceed the vacancy stabilization threshold so we would expect fukai phase generation in nickel hydde if you could have the vacancies move I mean if you like the whole game in fan Pond's experiment as we were arguing before was to make fukai phase vacancies which we did High loading and cod deposition well in nickel all you got to do is put in a little bit of hydrogen doding clusters to exceed the vacancy stabilization threshold now all you got to do is arrange conditions so that the nickel the vacancies can move and if you can you'll get natural formation ofai face structure now we recall that fukai phase structure takes the host metal nuclei in an ordered fashion replaces some of the vacancies so this is the kind of thing that we're talking about for nickel hydr and we argued that the the nice thing about the vacancy is that around a vacancy and this is palladium deuteride around a vacancy you've got the possibility getting the electron density to be sufficiently low to get a molecule um in nickel hydrite or in nickel around a vacancy you also have electron density sufficiently low you have the possibility molecular H2 HD formation or D2 formation so that that part of the problem is very similar so takeaway message nickel is hard to load it clusters you exceed the loading density for vacancy stabilization once you cluster it all you'd expect fukai phase if you can get uh if you can diffuse from internal surfaces um probably like elevated temperature in our nickel hydrate system in order to encourage um vacancy diffusion and if um if excess heat and padium is due to deep2 formation near amount of vacancies in Palladium um density functional calculations been done for similar one vacancy uh system in U nickel um is basically the Kid Sister local environment arguments are almost ident now brings us to the piantelli experiment takeaway message let me be fair and honest anybody have questions or thoughts or comments okay uh pantell experiment in my view pantel experiments sort of a fundamental experiment uh for understanding what's going on in the high temperature nickel hydrogen gas experiments so here's the experiment um uh pantelli in the early days worked with a nickel Rod so here's the specs for this one 9 cm length half a centimeter in diameter so this is this experim is not nickel powder Nano nickel or anything it's just a nickel rod and it's not just a nickel Rod one of my friends worked from Pell's paper to try to replicate it nothing happened whatsoever and he said what's wrong well there's some surface processing that's like really critical it has to be done and the experiment doesn't work without it and that somehow didn't manage to get documented in those papers sadly um so here's calibration uh there's no gas the uh temperature goes up when you put in heater power if there's gas in then you get a calibration curve so what you'd like to do is you'd like to see uh higher temperature uh for given input uh power to see if there's excess Heat present so here's some of the First Data showing excess heat in this particular experiment uh the input Powers I was estimating from the paper 140 Watts one of my friends read the paper more carefully and said yes it is 140 watts and the Excess power is 20 watts so like nickel's a little bit cheaper in the Palladium bigger systems bigger effects bigger everything um here's an example of um temperature is a function of heater power so this is when there's no excess Heat going on here's what 20 watts of excess heat looks like here's what 40 watts of EX looks like in these uh ring experiments here's a cross-section of their experiment the 1998 paper um I think the rod is is here here guess it's a pipe it looks like a pipe here again I I haven't read this paper for a while so I'm a little bit Rusty what I wanted to draw your attention to was here's tc4 here's tc1 tc2 TC3 there's different temperature sensors so tc4 is farthest away from the rod uh uh where's the other one tc1 is pretty close this measurement is pretty close to the rod so uh here's what the calibration looks like tc4 which is a way you know you you heat up there uh in the sample there was a platinum heater um these guys right here so Platinum heater uh wrapped around so you have to heat it up to get things to to go um so what you see is that T1 is Clos as the sample it's hottest T4 is furthest away it's much colder so there's this giant temperature gradient in a system according to um some of the early discussion on this that temperature gradient is a key feature of the experiment when you do experiment you like to have isothermal conditions and apparently this thing doesn't work with isothermal condition um so the basic observation the basic claim if you like is that you're running the thing in Power Balance you go in this case through a temperature cycle and when you're done with the temperature cycle the temperature's higher which basically between here and here you're seeing that the temperature's higher because the nickel hydrate is now producing Excess power H so we talked about the pressure composition isms and if you look in the literature and you say well how much loading do you expect at the temperatures that are under discussion um near one atmosphere you don't expect much loading so this is loading in units of 10 to minus 3 here's one in units of 10us 3 and here's numbers which are a small fraction of 10us 3 so the you'd expect both loading and nickel to be very low on the other hand if you look at their experimental data um a good way to figure out how much loading you have is to measure the hydrogen gas pressure in the cell so for example in experience we did at MIT would load a volume up with hydrogen gas or detarium gas and heat the sample up to burn off the oxide layer once the oxide layer is burned off then you get to see the pressure go down it drops like a rock all the metal eat uh absorbs all the hydrogen and garum here we're seeing um going from over a th000 bar down to 830 is bar so you're seeing the pressure going down now if the hydrogen pressure is going down where is it going so for example um we had argued that the solubility of both Nial hydrides Bly squat so we know that the hydrogen is not going into the bulk nickel so where is it going is that M bar or this is Milli bar th milar one bar roughly an atmosphere so somewhere near in atmosphere pressure drops down the sub atmosphere so I was looking at this and you know when I saw this this really caught my attention because it meant their samples absorbing hydrogen how does there a sample absorb hydrogen what makes it absorb hydrogen you go back and you read and talk to people and so forth and they have a loading protocol to prepare their nickel so what they do is they introduce the hydrogen they heat it up then then they let the hydrogen go out and try loading it again go through cycle so pressure de pressure Elevate the temperature burn off the oxide layer go in and out and might do from six to 10 times um cycling and what they see is that on each cycle the loading increases a little bit so by the time that they're done with their Cycles they're getting a substantial amount of loading let think about this bulk nickel doesn't load much you need a lot more uh uh pressure it's to pressure load both nickel um and they're certainly not doing that but they get some anyway so uh the number of atoms that getting absorbed in one of the numbers uh deduced from their data is this number the amount of nickel in the sample is this number and you look at this you look at this and it's sort of close to 1% which is way the heck more than a vulk nickel can load in a a paper by camarota and colleagues who basically looked at the same system they cycled it lots of time they got a loading up to0 2 nickel hydrogen 2 So 20% loading and these numbers are phenomena pH phenomenally large if you look at this you you just can't be anything other than astonished so it has to be nonbulk loading which means there's special sites which means defects or impurities now you're going through the cycling you're cycling hydrogen in and out does that introduce impurities that make it into the nickel I don't I didn't think so I thought I thought defects so not enough impurities in any EV for the camarota the expand we don't we don't know takeaway message pelling co-workers pioneered nickel gas loading elev temperature operation Good Excess power and we get H2 loading and um basically the conclusion I came to is the following we we' argued earlier that when the H goes into the nickel that it segregates little clumps of high loading but they're operating at elevated temperature and elevated temperature they're high enough where the vacancy diffusion coefficient is high enough to actually do some good so the thinking is is that they're actually during their loading Cycles they're making fukai phase and the fukai phase has defects and the defects the solubility is much higher so it's giving places where the hydrogen can go and that's why the loading is increasing and it gets more and more it gets more and more fukai phase material for each cycle just simply because uh once you've made them they're stable if you love someplace else and you segregate you get high hydrogen someplace else you get another place where you get fukai things take away message I'm looking at the clocks on ph running very fast questions okay so is nickel hydrogen like plaum dorite so I'm Wonder whether padium whether pantelli's Gasol and nickel hydrogen is is like the padium deuteride experiment and if you like like you know we we were arguing that in the FL and France experiment it seemed like the whole point of the protocol inflection Fant experiment could be interpreted as making f fukai v vacancies for codeposited padium out loading above .95 on the surface on pantelli's experiment ACC to this interpretation the cycling is making for kayas vacancies and making a lot of them um we we now know from DFT calculations that H2 and HD formation near oite monov vacany is nearly identical in Nicholas it is in Palladium they're sort of the closest matched of all the materials that were studied this is what we have D Char found in his calculations um and of course we could test for vacancies using theral aborption spectroscopies I showed on two days before um H diffuses nickel it doesn't diffuse as well as it does in Palladium have the same temperature but in pantell experiment the temperature is higher so nickel does diffuse and at the elevated temperature of the pantell experiment the diffusion of hydrogen nickel hydde it's very similar to the diffusion of H and padium deuteride so in a sense the hydrogen transport in nickel sort of works the same way as terarium transport in padium in the function PL experim and we recall that Miss ability Gap in this but there's no Miss ability Gap issue in the nickel hydride because there's no Mis ability G there's segregation there's clumps and there's nothing so let me go back and look at the excitation so what does pantelli do to kick things on I know that padium deuteride what was done back in the early '90s at SRI was to increase the current density draw detarium in to introduce a detarium flux the detarium flux itself we argued made Optical uh couple to Optical Fons and give you excitation Optical phons what the heck is this temperature cycling doing if you like you drop the temperature you bring in more hydrogen for the uh vacancies for the part that's or for the fukai phase for the part that's not in the fukai phase you actually send it out um so then so you you change the loading and then you change it back to sort of what it was before so what the nickel hydrate has to do is it has to breathe out and breathe in which means this temperature cycling is inducing a hydrogen flux so hydrogen detarium flux inflam deuteride kicks on excess heat and in some cases kicks it on and it sticks on for a while in um nickel hydrogen the temperature cycling is inducing the hydrogen flux which is kicking on the excess heat now in this case it's not causing Optical phonon excitation because we don't I mean we don't have much way of optical Pho modes that are delocalized so that probably is important here on the other hand um we can also cause acoustical high frequency acoustical mode uh citation as a result of the diffusion so excess heat triggered by detarium flux and plaum deuteride by this interpretation excess heat is being produced by a hydrogen flux nickel hydde produced by this thermal cycling note that uh pressure cyclings also observed to kick on an excess heat event in nickel hydride which would have the same effect you raise the pressure more hydrogen comes in you lower the pressure PR hydrogen goes out that's a way to induce the hydrogen flux so issue is pantelis hydrogen experiment responding to hydrogen diffusion well it sure looks like it and if so then it's looking to me like the kid Sister of padium deuteride takeaway message the takeaway message is that the piantelli protocol under these interpretations looks like it's doing what the current rent protocol is doing in U FL and PLS experiment questions because the hydrogen is clustering within the nickel is there a difficulty of getting the heat out is there a concentration of thermal gr is there a is there a pattern of thermal um differences through the bulk material do we know how close the Clusters are to the surface piantelli uh seems to argue that the effect occurs very near the surface and the surface gets really beat up uh he's published photographs of the surface and it just looks like somebody's come in and bashed the heck out of the surface really but doesn't decrepitate doesn't uh it doesn't rapure or there are it decrepitation where material under hydrating actually comes apart over a period of time and flakes off that is not observed I'm not going to say that's not observed I I don't know that that's observed or not observed I know that uh the surface looks discolored beaten up uh non-uniform is in the surface places where it looks like the surface was gouged um I I but I don't know if that's du the effective does anything interesting happen in either the nickel or the plaum lattice when you introduce a mixture of both H and D2 like does it preferentially with the D2 tend to try to get I'm sorry the H and the D the D try to get together they try to go to different sides um there's a very minor difference for purpose of discussion here they we'll think of it as being equivalent in the lce so let me think about the fun on modes so H solubility SL nickel can't supported the localized Optical pH on mode without a lot of H so if not Optical pH on mode then we'd expect compression acoustic mode operation um fractionation seems possible for transverse modes but the compressional modes as we argued before would uh have an advantage of being able to bring the molecule atoms Mo a little bit closer together and make a change in the tunnel so here's what the phonon modes look like uh for nickel um basically they higher frequency than in pagum so you can go up to high8 terz at the top of the uh acoustical fun on B which in my view would be the preferential uh place for the system to work um donor receiver mode applies you'd expect the donor transition be HD going to helium 3 uh receiver transition would be nickel uh acoustic mode phonon excitation we drove the acoustic phonon modes they would be exciting that's where the energy should go in this um the fractionation in the nickel is imperfect and so I'm thinking that that gives the possibility within the model that basically accessing unstable states in the nickel and leading to disintegration now in pantelli's experiment um near the surface I see nickel see iron calcium potassium Corin Su see all this stuff and all this stuff in this particular experiment sort of largely consistent with the picture that your nickels handling this energy to fractionate it so the HD going to helium 3 is about 5 1/2 me so you got a fraction 52 meev Quant down to 8 terz or so um most of the works then in this picture is being done by a nickel it's done to states which are clean but you have transition to states which basically can disate disintegrate so you're losing your nickel and uh this this in my view is is uh an unwanted result of having acoustical mode operation so evidence for Elemental anomalies in the pantel experiment there's also massive charge emission which they observed as well conjectures that nickel disintegration is an unintended and unwanted consequence of acoustic mode operation nickel disintegration is endothermic so it's taking away from your energy you're producing in U Palladium and Hotpot operation I think that's acoustic mode operation I think it's hot because blaum disintegration is highly exotherm so it's making your exy a lot larger and there are Elemental anomalies reported in association with the hot spots in padium other relevant work clocks ticking down is adamenko and vski in connection with proton 21 so they take uh electron being say few hundred kilovolts very massive high density High fluence Electron Beam going through materials and it appears to induce uh transmutations I think it's sort of a similar kind of thing you know car boot vibrations cause nuclear excitation or if you have much more vibrations much more energetic stuff going on higher frequency you go up higher you access um states which are unstable to disintegration and you can you know Lis induc fish kind of process I think proton 21 evidence supports that or is consistent with that and did and vusi have stunning experimental data you just got to go look at they take padium deuteride and dubo they're running a g beam through it and they're seeing massive transmutation see macroscopic fraction of padium turning it into a slug of other uh elements takeaway message H solubility Niel low no de Optical Photon modes I think internal transitions in nickel do the fractionation to get nickel uh disintegration as an unintended consequence which by the way underscores the importance of Chan's work is working with Constantine and it's a nickel alloy which is cheap he works on INF facturing it but the solubility of hydrogen in this stuff is very high which means you have a possibility of having an optical phone on mode which means you the chance of not disintegrating your nickel there's chani doing a demo with this wire at National instruments week let me pause for questions or comments I there's also CER in hisan is there any role CP this well basically anything that's in there that's moving is going to contribute in proportional to how strongly it's coupled and how many of them there are so yeah okay so detarium occurs in in U ordinary water roughly 1.6300 hydrogen so you're not going to expect very many HD molecules so that's often times used as an argument to say all this HD to Healing 3 stuff just wrong there's no there's no D on the other hand the reduced mass is lower than for D2 so the telling Matrix element is quite a bit reduced uh as compared to D2 so the reactivity is much higher for HD going healing 3 you can say well there's no observations whatsoever heing through gas phase there are no relevant experiments that been attempted as far as I know at this point um I'm very interested in knowing whether HD healing 3 is responsible for excess heat so so Dear Santa my wish list I want a measurement of this want to know what what happens um now I'm going to take the Liberty of presenting a version of Mitchell's data um Mitchell as he mentioned studied uh excess heat in nickel uh NIH and uh we were thinking about whether HD go Healing Tree could be possible so the idea was is there's hardly any D in normal water let's add some D and if the excess heat goes up maybe that gives some indirect evidence the HD going human Tre is going on so here's what happen mital added fium to a hydrogen here's Zer here's 4% here's 8% over here and at three different uh input power levels the excess heat is going up with the addition of duum if I look at that I say very interesting very interesting so this uh provides indirect support that HD going to helium 3 sorry what I believe this is with nickel yes takeaway message not much tea and light water don't know whether HD is giving us excess heat Mitchell's experiments support the notion that HD to heing 3 may be what's going on we really need healing through gas measurements uh I'm going over and I can't continue you tomorrow I apologize I'm just about I'm actually close to being done in the piantelli experiment they report observation of a gamma ray at a low level this is it 661 K and it appears in correlation with the excess heat production very low levels um this at the moment's not understood but it's interesting very interesting the level sufficiently low that well you wouldn't have to worry so much about it if you're making power and you got one of these things running in your basement they have a little bit of neutron uh production as well that you might have to worry a little bit more about this is not understood at present okay I want to think sort of my last topic I want to think a little bit about commercial applications in nickel hydride so the importance of the nickel hyd is that nickel is cheap pum is not um the pantell experiment is important because it's significant amount of excess heat nickel based um if you believe that helium 3 is made then you have the same issue for helium 3 removal as in helium 4 case with fum deuteride so this favors higher temperature and I'm going to put in parentheses that higher temperature you have issues with loading so you want to make sure that the temperatures you go to can still get what loading you need and it also fa favors smaller scale nickel so Nano powders or powders or Nano powders if there's less distence between your monovacancy and your surface then your power densy is going to be higher if You' got a small structure so what this suggests is that um working with big nickel bars you get some Advantage if you went to Nickel powders or nickel Nano powders before going there uh me remark that at um the Pono Workshop U bill kalis got up and spoke for pantelli and reported uh observation of nickel hydrogen cell to run in self- sustained operation at 280c uh consistent with about 70 watts of output power and ran for eight months thank you um on the internet I was looking around last night apparently at the Adam unexplored uh meeting um champ hly U talked about 200 Watts for 55 days if I got my numbers correct so this is not a unique uh report from the pantell group but basically what they what kis uh said was done is you you um you cycle it you do some excess heat actually think pantell told me this but then uh once it's getting ex to heat you can cycle it again and induce more regions to turn on and cycle again get more regions going they kep on doing this to get the heat up to the point where they could turn off their heater and the things stay hot and continue to operate you see 70 WS output power is that Excess power is that just output that's the input plus the excess self sustaining input turned off got it this is [Laughter] important okay um pantelli uh and as collaborators say they worked with nickel powders and nanoscale powders uh stared from around 2000 motivated by uh arata's papers Arata we recognize pioneered Nano structured uh padium for uh F and ponds experiments uh Rossy claims independent development of nickel hydrogen powder exper CLS reproducibility high energy gains out power commercialization underway and de Callan also claims commercialization underway also nickel hydrogen uh systems um I downloaded a picture of uh the ecat from the ecat website for those of you who are interested there's um I refer you to the ecat website um this is uh again from the ecat website this is a picture of what their one megawatt system looks like their one megawatt system basically has a lot of the smaller systems stacked up in Banks along the shelves they take a lot of say 5 kilowatt systems put them put enough of them together and you get yourself up to megawatt I think there was a demo where this was claimed to actually produce power somewhere near half a megaw over half a mega um so publication Kim and Christos from iccf 18 proceedings of the Hyperion reactor and uh this looks unlegible I think the nickel hydrates inside I think there's there's heating coil there's a heating thing in a cooling coil um here's results from a run that they've done uh that was published in the same proceedings paper the claim is a power gain of about three in pantelli's early nickel hydrogen run it was 40 50% later on it was the nickel bars was factor three um here the powders is CL factor of three what I want to draw your attention to is 7 where's the power power level so input power is in Red so here's 2 kilow output power is green so here's 8 to 10 kilow so we're not talking about little cell none of this 100 m stuff this is like industrial scale but which is the advantage if if your nickel's cheap you can do an experiment like this uh I I apologize to my colleague Kim I've stolen one of his fog graphs from IA CCF 18 which uh shows some of their Nano Nano nickel uh structure and here's um n nickel it goes into a vessel and uh and off you go so there you have nickel and hydrogen you have flame of excess heat under conditions which is commercially relevant takeaway message based on work published by pantell group with nickel and talked about in conferences you would expect to get 3x excess heat from high temperature nickel hydri gas experiment of course as we've discussed they've described selfs mode which more than 3xx infinite accs because there's no input power um limited by heing tree accumulation you expect higher power density in small structure small scale nickel structures that seems to be the case as what I can tell I guess I'll have to hear from Mitchell whether his experience are consistent with it Nichol's cheap Rossy claims High reproducibility commercial products forthcoming if calian claims High reproducibility commercial products forthcoming coming um pant telli the originator of the technology is involved with Nick energy Nick energy doesn't talk at all uh Robert would kill me if I didn't at least give a plug for him Robert Godus is working at bran using axial an axial current protocol uh they've reported results in nickel hydrite PL deuteride and they're working on products for commercialization conclusions so this is conclusions sort of like for the whole thing many negative results early on effect inconsistent with known condensed matter Nuclear Physics saying it's three Miracles argument uh claim of easy rejected by the scientific Community uh field delineated is not part of science back in 1989 pretty much quarter Century of attack on the field um number of researchers left now is a pale fraction of what it was say even back in 1994 um subsequent positive experiments and we talked a lot about positive experiments science in the field has found a way to move forward in spite of the obstacles excess he amenable to scientific investigation as we've argued we've been using other areas of science we've been using electric chemistry physical chemistry physics and so forth to come and try to understand the fles and ponds experiment try to get some intuition as what's going on we put forth a picture as to what's going on for excess heat we've now described a theoretical approach which looks encouraging and if you like which is based on non physics standard model being non physics and if you like all that we've done and said within the standard models there's a little bit of fine print associated with the generalized fold evil twoism transformation so shouldn't use it like everywhere you've got to go ahead if there's loss and be careful where you use it and calculate things more carefully picture allows us to begin understanding the P system also nickel hydrogen system and nickel hydrogen systems um receiving a huge amount of attention these days we would expect nickel hydrogen powder to be able to produce excess eat the efforts to commercialize which are uniformly being dismissed at this point should not be uniformly dismissed uh some of them should be taken seriously what we need is a serious and sustained scientific effort uh to understand what's going on World's facing serious problems the Technologies based on the new effects actually have the potential to provide solutions for some of the big problems not for overpopulation which is driving our problems but maybe to give us some time the barrier to scientist entering field who wants to join a field are you going to get shot down and have your career destroyed there's essentially no funding available at present um people were really excited recently because uh there was a doe U post saying that RP was going to provide uh uh was interest in getting proposals in the case of uh LR so a lot of people been saying well things are changing maybe there's the possibility of funding is available oh here's an email from ARP I guess the answer is that things aren't really changing um warning working in this field can and will destroy your career um and here's uh flan and uh made back in better times and when I still had had some hair uh comments questions [Applause] any I apologize to Mitchell for going over let's take a few minute break and then we'll reconvene uh today as I told you we would talk about nickel systems and we're going to to talk about two things we'll talk about aquous nickel systems the fact that we are able to get excess energy out and get the coal Fusion system to work and actually one of the things I'd like to see from you Peter is with your theory maybe you could tell us about how it's predicted whether nickel should react quicker and whether the heat after death should end quicker and then we'll talk about the impact of deuterons on the nickel system and will show both that with the nickel system there can be degradation catastrophic degradation of the nickel and then I'll show you the latest nanor that we're making which are nickel with dyum okay so first off this was the report that uh Peter discussed to you where we took ordinary water with a working uh nickel system so we have Platinum is the anode we have uh uh ordinary water around nickel fusor which is the cathode and we begin adding oh that's ahead a little bit oh boy we'll come back to that let me just first show you the nickel systems before we add the detarium uh so here we're running a nickel system over time we're looking at the power input which is here here's our background noise as I told you we always measure noise before we run the experiment so this is in log Watts here we do an integral to get get the total energy of the system which is here up from 0 to 200,000 Jew so here for example we wait 10 hours measure the noise in the system then we run to the control this is a a resistor a carbon composition resistor or a wire around resistor that's next to the coal Fusion device and allows us to calibrate the system here's our input here's our output it's a nice match but when we run the coal Fusion system we're getting excess energy out here's our input and now we're getting more out and as I told you before when we look at these curves we see that we have parallel systems for the alma control but when we see cold fusion we see a superlinear rise and the reason that it's it's not linear here is we're looking at different levels uh this system was where we have nickel ordinary water and a gold anode we did a lot of uh if you go into literature around 19 uh 98 to 2000 we reported a lot of the differences we saw with gold versus platinum here is the more conventional nickel ordinary water uh Platinum the fusor is in the nickel so here for example for the first 8 hours we measure the background noise which is over here nothing higher than uh um it looks like 10 m here's the El control we put in here we get out here we put in here we're getting more out and then we put in two more R we two more Roma controls here again we get less and again with the nickel cathode we get more so we have two thermal spectrographs of two runs one with gold as the anode one with Platinum is theode but both with nickel fusor so we get excess heat now this was actually I went back and this is one of the first ones where we found the peak in one of our nickel systems and after that I'm going to tell you something a little B of History here we call this the optimal operating point but I have to thank Peter for that we actually had a terrible name for it in the beginning uh when we plot input power which is how we see these uh so we look at at B * I input power in this direction and we look at our output either helium for production incremental production or excess energy and we see something like this well it turns out every now and then we saw something come up there it didn't always go down so we actually called it a pine Notch because it looked a little bit like pi and we would settle it over here and I'll come back to why that's important even though we call it optimal operating points now and the reason is some of these systems appear to have incredibly high energy gain at low power we're going to show you that in a moment okay let's go back to this so here we see an optimal operating point we're looking at log input power and as we talked on Wednesday I think this is a key to why most people Miss C Fusion on this side inadequate loading on this side overdrive and then there's the other issues that uh Peter also mentioned here too we have a nickel system where we see a very high um excess energy over here and in fact uh we use these on Sterling engines as I showed you I'll show you a couple of more pictures of that and uh basically what we have here I'll put a video on in a minute is one of these has the fusor in it where we're driving the coold fusion system the other one has an MA control these will be an electrical series we'll measure the voltage on V both and in the end what we'll see is we'll have less input power DC to the co Fusion device but we get more output and and uh this is a closeup and side and these are some of our runs now it turned out this is heavy water with padium this is ordinary water with nickel and we were getting up energy gains a little bit better than 30% which is uh what we were just hearing and when we get it's we didn't really talk much about it in this course but the open circuit voltage is our indicator of how well we did the coal fusion and we could talk about this for another two days and it turned out it all also played a role here I showed you the fuel cells that we did remember we talked about we tried to do the feedback loop for electricity we found that we were not able to do it because of burning up losses going around and also I mentioned the fuel cell I just show you what we did it in we had a little car uh and it was cute it had a little Thermo El electric converter and this was actually done 11 years ago and then after this we decided we would spend a little bit more time trying to improve the gain rather than putting Direct into commercialization and this was the data that we talked about very quickly the other day where we were trying to go around the loop we learned about the massive losses when using the fuel cells that's just our circuit now the other thing is um Peter mentioned this paper and let me show you what we used uh here was one of these fusers so we used this as the cathode this is a nickel material we put it in ordinary water we have platinum as the anode we drive it and uh add increasing amounts of heavy water and what we ended up doing we did 3% 7% Peter show you those curves and so for example here again we do the noise measurement we do the alma control we get a nice match and we do uh various levels of adding heavy water to the ordinary water yeah okay and basically uh we got higher power out for all increased amounts of d2o added to the ordinary water but we discovered something else and that's why we spent a lot of time looking at Palladium after that we damaged the fusor at high deuteron levels High detarium concentration levels at High Drive levels the nickel became irreversibly changed uh it turns out that the uh the uh this is its uh incremental resistivity it dropped from 88.8 micro ohm sonometers down to 8 the color change this is an irreversible change but if you're going to build a commercial system it's even more important because here's our new fusor where we're having an energy gain up here and once we destroy it it's down with the control never work again so we're able to take an active device and not only quench it but irreversibly destroy it here's a closeup of that and so for for example here we do the Boost we get more out and then if we drive it too far we come down here it never comes back questions what is the ratio in the the axis so is a power we're looking here at Power gain so here's a 50% increase here's a uh here's a 100% increase so the power gain here is two you got to subtract by one this is says one so it's actually no gain okay so it's one minus the amount is what the increase is we don't want means that means it's a loss we're dissipating this is not even recovery when you go below we did not even get it back our controls you see here's three controls controls we're very close to 100% so we're actually probably inducing chemical change within the nickel as we're driving it and so nothing you should get to be Peter said it's endothermal this is where it's going this is one of his predictions that turns out to be correct another one that turns out to be correct okay all right we made a company nanch uh these were the nanor these were our Series 7 basically the Series 6 was the one we showed at the demo back in 2012 these are hyper loaded um zirconium oxide the one we showed at the demo uh was padium nickel with dyum added we look not only at that but in series 7 we're looking at a half a dozen other nanomaterials so we're still evolving means of loading developing materials and their response essentially these are two terminal devices like a resistor we put in a DC current I showed you there were problems and I'll show you more with respect to catastrophic changes in the impedance of the device but we get out excess energy now here's how we're going to read read these devices um all of these we now add calibration pulses as I told you so we can calibrate the equipment for both current and voltage then we do an control so here for example is our control input output and here's our input to the neon or and here's our output and they're all going to be like this so let's look at 72 here for example here's our delta T divided by the input power calibration pulses calibration pulses here's our input power here's our delta T here's our input power here here's our delta T divided by input power yes are these padium of these nickel these mixed what uh it'll say what it is uh this 72 is is uh pdni as we go to higher numbers we switch to ni alone duum or hydrogen only detarium all everyone I show you in series 7 is D but some of them are ni nipd and as we go to higher numbers they're just and I um okay so the ratio in gain energy gain is here to here that's a little bit more than 30% okay 74 here would some of these results are so large I have to use log plots which is sort of sweet so we're looking at delta T over PN and what we do here's our input power to the control here's our input power to the cfusion device here's our output power our output uh it's this is input power read off this side this is output which is delta T ided by input power so if you want the ratio of energy gain it's this to here and what's that one 2 or is a magnitude not too bad and it's over and over it's reproducible so here excuse me input power to the control to the uh nanor to the control to the nanor control nanor over and over and the and the energy ratio is here to here now you see there a fall off as we go to higher power the gain now here is just about a log but we're up here we're up to two or more logs okay questions it's in your highest uh Power gain experience is the high power gain Sally because you reach the same power level with with much less input or would you more say well with the same input I'm reaching much higher output as a matter of fact I think you are right on I think we not only have have issues of loading of secondary reactions but there may be a limit to how much power we get out of these devices and we may be swamping them and what we may be seeing here is in the very low levels the maximum amount they can put out yes are you dealing with low mass like 50 Mig or something less these are about 30 Mig I'm I'm sorry I should have said that our neor are very small I mean so isn't the power level that you're saying even though you know it doesn't look so high isn't it fantastically high for such a low amount of mass it is uh we're running between 19 Kow and 60 Kow per kilogram of material which isn't too shabby K it's it's between 19 and just under 70 kilowatt per kilogram is what we're getting out for power can we power density pardon can we clap just question sorry those kilograms are they the N kilograms the active PD no no this is calculated there are no kilograms we have milligrams we have we have 30 I think the biggest Nano we're running right now is about 150 to 200 milligram but you have cirium oxide as well as the so how Okay so on the basis of the whole Mass that's the 19 kgam 19 Kow per kilogram on the basis of the Palladium alone that's where we get around 68 uh 68 Kow per kilogram it goes from 19,000 to 68,000 okay I'm just calculating that's based on that's whether you have the whole mass or just the Palladium okay so here's another one 74 input to the control input to the nanor here's our uh let's see this one's delta T over p and again we take the ratio to get the energy gain here was our let's see this was uh okay 74 so what we're looking at here this is input and uh delta T / power again we take the ratio um the the ratio of energy gain is this to this and this is a linear plot not a log plot I think the importance here is that we were trying to go to higher power at at MIT the most we had done was a couple hundred Ms and what we went up here was to two Watts so we're trying to increase by orders of magnitude our neor over time and so for example here uh this is 64 we're driving it at 610 volts we're getting a power gain of 3.6 that's our impedance of the N Go ahead I apologize if you go to higher power do you increase the mass or do you still have a low mass here uh I don't change the mass right now you're different regime yes we've never we we we limited the input Drive in your office and now I really don't care if I destroy them so we're going higher we're so you're going into the Avalanche regime here actually just up to it and as I'll show you we have our first pictures of going through it that's coming up okay so here's uh here again it's the the instantaneous power gain is the ratio here we got 3.6 and we went up this high as 1.5 wats input and at 1.5 wats it's equal to the resistor remember that optimal operating Point comes down so you know you can't run this nanor you don't want to run it at 1.5 wats in fact maybe what we want to do is very tiny input in millions of them okay 77 uh here's another one where I think this one is solely nickel there's no Palladium in this this is pure nickel nanomaterial uh added with d then here here's our calibration pulses oura control uh input to the nanor which again is nickel with d and our uh this is uh just delta T we're looking at delta T delta T delta T and here when we normalize uh the delta T by the input power we can take the ratio so we sort of match the impedances here to here and that's our ratio Mitch yes does your hyper loading check work on nickel it does I didn't know until this yes yeah so for example uh here's 77 we're driving it at 450 volts um we used to use water in the core it was a Gail's idea to switch to paraffin it's been a great impact it's helped a lot and so here for example you can't really compare because it's input power and delta T you want to divide by input power and I think we do that in the next one yes so uh uh the ratio of energy gain is going to be delta T over P into here to here here's our energy gain and that is a couple of orders of magnitude too isn't it four three or four [Applause] nickel n no clapping till we get these out commercialization a one way to go here again uh the input power normalized this also is uh with the only nickel with the D and again we take the ratios by the way this is not with the delta T this is the corroboratory measurement where we look at heat flow like I told you we like to see three things we like to see the delta T rise we want to see the heat flow increment and then we want to do the full board calorimetry so here the heat flow also had a gain of Beyond two orders of magnitude and here it gets really exciting um up until well this is the first time I've been able to go through the Avalanche and not blow up equipment and check my pulse make sure we're all okay up until this it was always we had seen one side or the other and this is the first time I'm going to be able to show you what we saw so here's the control what we're looking at is input power delta T and remember you won't see much until we switch to thermal power spectroscopy but you can see a little bit here control pulses here's our input here's our delta T here's our input here here's our delta T and after the a Lun let's do the calorimetry and here's what we find control nice match excess energy more post Avalanche Less in fact when we plot the incr the instantaneous power gain for coal Fusion for the nanomaterials the Elma control comes out at one no surprise there the excess energy uh we're we're doing a drive here now I think this is on the order of a fraction of a watt we're driving it at a little bit over a kilowatt um Kilt pardon kilovolt I yeah kilovolt thank you take a break here just graph long time to get so we have five levels of input electrical power here we going from a power gain of five to two we go through the Avalanche and it's just like the resistor okay we had seen this before that when we go through the Avalanche we're creating other perhaps competing processes but here it's absolutely clear to go through the Avalanche we lose our excess energy anyway we did it a few times um and we also Sor it for heat flow again we take the ratio this is uh before the Avalanche here's after the Avalanche so we lose our excess energy um here we can see that if we stay below the Avalanche see uh here's our input output here's the input to the nanor and the output again this is the nickel with the D no Palladium in this uh our energy gain is here to here when we drive here here to here here to here it's falling down and therefore these slopes are also falling and eventually if this came down to match these two would be parallel like they are here what temperatures do you reach at this high power mode driving um we're still clamping at about 10 or 15° above room level we're we're ready to go higher I wanted to get as much data out of it as I could okay 78 this is just more uh where let's see again this is a uh this is just delta T you can't do it till it's delta T over PN I'm sorry here we got delta T over PN so here's our input to the El control here's our output divided by power in here's our input to the nanor output divided by power in this R shows our energy gain um this is a this one has both uh p a nickel in it but again we can see there's a very nice energy gain here and the gain falls off you need to understand the optimal operating Point manifolds the fact that there's competitive reactions uh and if you do it right you see it not only with the delta T here with the heat flow we're seeing a ratio of what a decade and a half for heat flow increase and here's the full calorimetry uh with this nice paraffin calorimeter suggested by Gale and we have a energy gain of 20 so here's the El control no matter what level we do we get a match when we treat here we see a great energy gain and therefore a superlinear rise so what do we have our neor now can give up to 1 and 1 12 Watts input we're seeing uh three times input three times output compared to the input at one watt input and 27 times at 4 M and when we go down less it's even higher that's what I showed you there so we may not be designing these right we still have to think about it yeah Mitchell in other words you basically are showing us the Holy Grail you have a nickel based technology works with D2 hyper loed and it gives great game does give great game why aren't you commercializing this because it's small amounts we have to figure out how to make more you you make lots of small things together that is that's the definite way out it wors what are the thoughts why the um uh your your power output is not as um goes down with your uh your power why why why the higher energy ones don't don't prod as much the the argument was is that it at low current density the current goes from raisin to raisin to raisin so the current goes where you want you go into the high power region you go into avalan leg the current's going everywhere through so some of your current goes through the raisins and most of it just misses it buy it bypasses right so instead of making those Optical phone on that you need for Peter's model to couple you're doing other things all right we're making series 8 Nars which are going to be the high power and here's the bottom line actually we did this back we should raise this to uh 40,000 or something quotes from Dune if any of you ever read that and uh one let's see one more thing I was going to show you here well it's not important it's the light you were talking about whether the the increase in energy gain when we illuminate the cap out was due to the incident being and we can show here it clearly isn't because here we do the control in the laser the control the laser infuser okay anyway questions yeah Dr I to the point where we can return the experiment fles give Nal to differentes throughout the country and when they get positive convincing results uh did you say with the setup by fleshman and pawns no with with that's the hope that is the hope we have to make more of them and we are finding all kinds of problems with making them that I didn't expect I I don't have the luck of some of the other people in the field where it works all the time right away but uh we were little persistent yes yeah um have you taken some of your nanor and put them on a lifetime test where they're just running continuously to see what happen s to the output over time well we've done that inadvertently and unintentionally because we do different experiments like I showed you yesterday so the one that we showed at uh Peter's lab in the demo two years ago had run for about a month and we collected the data every day we ran it in his office for 4 months and then we did other work with it so it's not I I haven't had the luxury of having one where we can just run it continuously we've sort of been using it and collecting the data from each of the subset of experiments so you don't have another uh a less a less ambitious and um expensive protocol that you could use to uh put the nanor under for a long period of time and then after say a year take the nanor and then put it into your three-way heat Pro method I can well I'd run it the whole time in the threeway have those resources no we haven't done that yet uh this is actually the first month I've had more than one nanor in hand I mean even though it's slow we're making about one a month right now in Cold Fusion for 25 years it's always been you build a cell you test it 9 months go by you build a new one I mean I've never had multiple devices before so it's it's new yes I just think about what what were the maximum power gains that that you described in that last set of slides I'm not going to say was it orders of magnitude yes it does appear to be okay uh the test will begin in can you show us the experiment you did with a Sterling engine connected to the yes yes I got two of those if I'm lucky if they survived see we got to this was the first one I showed you this is sorry for the dumbness of it all this is before we hooked up the controler I'll show you the control Sterling engine so you can't believe this cuz there's no control you really need both 2004 it is 3 in the afternoon Monday I was excited anyway I'm me show you the other one with the control this is the first coal Fusion Sterling engine I think it repeated how do I shut today is December 20th you have to get it back up and4 you got to get it up to shut it thank you three now shut it up thank you looks like we all have a lot to learn from these things all right here we have the control and if it works okay this is our light water Sterling demonstration showing Co Fusion using nickel on the nickel fuse or on the right is the control Power on the right on the left is the fuser dban Sterling engine we have about uh twice the power on the right we were making more electricity on the right had higher temperatures on the right and uh this is our we sent this down to the patent office and they said you did the same thing fleshman and pawns did so it's a in fact that's been what they've said about everything we've ever sent there we sent them the nickel stuff they said that's what fleshman and pawns did we sent the a device for measuring loading they said that's what fleshman and pawn they sort of have a standard boiler point they send back anyway that's it any questions just to understand the latest Des you showed us those were nickel nan no they were nickel Nano material but they had no Palladium in no padium no Palladium just nickel and with light water or with duum only dyum for these only du yes there's no light water in this in fact great effort is made to keep light Water Ordinary water out we have no light water so let me put in a request it' be fun to have a mixed HD nickel system and see what it does well I think what our plan is in the next year is to do the whole group so we'll have a PD nanomaterial a mixed and ni and then find out what each of the outputs are Peak I think one of the advantage of the optimal operating points is by knowing the peak we can compare system and without that you really can't yes there's no zirconium in the ones I just half of the ones I showed you had zeron but the earlier ones didn't 78 did had zirconium 74 did the other ones did not again we're trying new materials new setups I wish I could tell you more but we will next time advantage of for to prevent cing and also also to remove out of uh it prevents the centering and it acts as an insulator ins a massive insulator that's why when we make these uh before we activate them sometimes they've been as high as 10 to 100 ter which is very tough you put them into a circuit board and everything that you think is not connected it is connected compared to your device it was uh it was actually the reason why when I brought the device to Peter's office we had a beautiful box and then I realized we can't use it we have to build this whole thing in the air to keep the leads far apart and that's why it ended up in that Tupper Weare crate inside Peter's office it was an inadvertent and unintentional result of Murphy whacking meil pardon is it stabiliz is it easy to stabilize itum stabiliz oh I haven't tried that um I think Dennis Craven uses some of that material doesn't he no I don't know I did you find it successful no because normally also the is not very stable so there small amount ofum just to be honest I better look into it there's a lot of it thank you well that's I guess that's it you want to say anything else oh we have the exam [Applause] well we're counting on all of you okay