“We Have Antigravity UFOs!” (ft. Nick Cook)

Transcript

if I'm being shown this and I'm imagining that what actually is out there that I'm not even beginning to imagine the year is 1994 Nick cook the aviation editor for James defense weekly walks into his office and notices someone has placed a photo copy of a strange magazine article from 1956 on his desk what it showed was it sort of looked like a UFO kind of with a ladder coming out of it over a dry lake bed and a pilot an Air Force pilot climbing out of this thing it's titled the G engines are coming and it lists the top aerospace companies of the day Lear conver Bell the Martin Corporation before its merger with locked all expressing extreme confidence in being able to develop anti-gravity aircraft within the next several years one of the people quoted is George S Trimble the VP of Martin corporation's research instit in for advanced study he says that human control of gravity could be done in about the time it took to build the first atom bomb but by the early 1960s there were no G engines no weightless craft or man-made UFOs and the whole industry kind of went silent on the subject and I I filed it away until I ran into a locked PR exec I knew pretty well and I said I'd like to interview George Trimble because it just sounded intriguing the old VP initially seemed open to the interview but a few days later Nick got a call from his locked contact who relayed a message from Trimble he doesn't want to speak to me and he doesn't want to speak to you not now not ever I don't mind telling you that he sounded scared scared scared scared it is that moment when you go okay well if I wasn't interested before I am now yeah that's Nick cook and those were real life moments from his incredible book The Hunt for zero point the book is the most comprehensive documentation to date of aerospace's formerly unknown yet very deep inquiries into the world of anti-grab you're looking at something that is a complete Quantum Leap if you're making something that is an ant some sort of a gravity propulsion system and you've made a breakthrough you're not going to put that on wire.com Nick isn't a wooo U aona he spent decades as a correspondent and then editor for the prestigious British military publication James defense weekly entrusted at the highest levels he traveled the world and interviewed Executives at locked Boeing Northrup rathon and many others I had a pretty much unlimited kind of travel budget attached to me it was a global brief I could go anywhere and in the 80s and '90s cook began hunting down what he wasn't being shown classified stealth and supersonic aircraft in the black world that hadn't reach the public he did this along with his colleague Bill Sweetman bill was a kind of Sherlock Holmes he would piece together clues that the black World left or hadn't even intended to leave in public most notably they've uncovered some pretty strong circumstantial evidence of the long rumored mock 5 locked Aurora aircraft but more on that later I always felt like I'm just scratching the surface of what's really going on here [Music] I can seriously say with a straight face that the hunt for zero point is one of my favorite books of all time and one of the most important books in considering all of the possibilities of the UFO mystery that some of these UFOs may actually be man-made he ended his talk with a slide of a black disc zipping off an outer space and he ended it with these words we now have the technology to take ET home in this exclusive interview we retrace Nick's Sensational journey in the hunt for zero point from Skunk Works to Nazi Germany which had its own reported anti-gravity programs under SS officer Hans commer programs that were scavenged for their most valuable technology by the Americans and the Russians at the end of World War II there may have been stuff going on in World War II that we just don't know about to this day and along the way cook Chronicles the mly crew of Forgotten inventors and academic mics who reported anti-gravitational effects Victor shurger Thomas Townsen brown john Hutchinson Eugene Petna and many others cook even interviewed ning Lee the mysterious Chinese American physicist who was awarded a deod grant for her anomalous anti-gravity research results at University of Alabama Huntsville and then I didn't know sort of how soon after that it was that she so went off grid certainly probably about within within a year but she just disappeared and no one knew what an happen to and if that's not crazy enough cook and I also explore aerospace's longstanding interest in Mind Over Matter effects or the fringy field of parapsychology is there a through line with Aerospace and like this interest in mind over matter these companies look at anything they can that can confer possible Advantage so without further Ado sit back relax and prepare to have your brain absolutely broken by today's British Alchemist Nick [Music] cook I'm here with the author of one of my favorite books of all time uh Nick cook we're here to talk about his book The Hunt for zero point I chose as our Background by the way um an Avo car in 1961 in an naso wind tunnel and I know the AO car kind of nominally at least went nowhere but I did find it to be kind of an iconic interesting photo yeah it looks an awful lot sort of sexier there than actually the poor thing turned out to be it really was a bit of a a dog of a machine but we we can talk about that yeah yeah well let's get into it so I I want to get into I think in some ways your autobiographical story when it comes to this journey is is really important for people to understand because you don't seem like one of these UFO nut cooks or or even you know particularly into very out there stuff kind of a priori and so you were an aviation journalist at James defense Weekly right and then what got you into aviation in the first place uh that's a really good question so I did um a completely unrelated degree at University which was Arabic and Islamic Studies but then I got to the end of University and I realized that the thing I was really interested in was Aerospace and Engineering but I didn't want to go and do another three years of engineering Plus wasn't particularly great at maths it was my dad actually who was an engineer who said to me why don't you write about it why don't you write about Aerospace that had never occurred to me until that moment but actually when he said that a sort of light bulb went on and I knew that that was what I was going to do so let's talk about uh your introduction into aerospace's inquiries into anti-gravity because I find that story very interesting there was an article that showed up on your desk is that right yeah there was an article that showed up on my desk I mean people would send stuff to us at Jan's we had a central mail opening facility so I never knew who sent it to me it was but it might have been anonymously sent and I was about to throw it in the trash um when I started to sort of read it and there were these company names that I recognized you know was still familiar like conve General Dynamics uh loed Le and it said you know there's real activity going on lots of you know scientists are involved and you know we anticipate a breakthrough by you know the early 1960s you know by which time we're all going to be flying around like the jeton and and there's a George Trimble who's the VP of Martin Corporation pre- loocking merger their group called raas which is studying anti-gravity at the time says this could be done in about the amount of time it took to build the first atom bomb and so you get this sort of like you know it's a round the bend feel correct and and in my mind's eye I had an image of the bomb program as a kind of progenitor for this you know this was the kind of time scales probably the kind of money that was being going to be thrown at this and the architecture that would be employed except that it was seemed it was all of course being talken about talked about openly then and I I filed it away intrigued but you know I've got real stuff to be getting on with right and until I ran into a locked PR exec I knew pretty well and I said I'd like to interview George Trimble because it just sounded intriguing and and I I think I'd found out that Trimble was still alive or maybe I'd asked this person to find out if Trimble was still alive anyway the answer came back that Trimble didn't want to speak to me and he was really quite spooked at the idea of speaking to me and I was politely sort of invited to drop this interest but he seemed open to initially speaking to you and then he goes back and he says uh you know I don't I don't know who this man is but I won't speak to him now or ever and I suggest you drop it you know something like that yeah yeah yeah and so what caused this sort of 180 flip what caused the 180 flip I have you know I have no idea um like I say it it it could have been oh my God there's something really secret there that I I George Trimble you know inadvertently stumbled you know I sort of rumbled over um because I was once told never to talk about it uh or it could have been the praic version you know which is it's just this is not something we talk about in polite company in the 1990s anymore okay so the door gets shut in your face and of course as a journalist that makes you more interested yeah it is that moment when you go okay well if I wasn't interested before I am now yeah and then what what did you encounter next in your anti-gravity Journey well what I did was I did that thing that you and how had that very interesting discussion with uh Eric Weinstein about which was the physics piece uhhuh it would only be if it were the case that in fact we have mastered anti-gravity and they're being built by Aerospace corporations then new physics would have to be involved I I did look at the the the the piece that Eric Weinstein referenced which was all a sort of physics that was going on at the time um and he did that brilliantly my understanding is that there were really twin Losi activity Babson contacted Lewis Whitten who was coming out of John's Hopkins and then oddly a the similarly named individual named banson reaches out to Bryce dwit and asks whether he will found an Institute at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill right and then there's a famous gravity conference at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill that sort of kicks a lot of this off it's a tremendous flurry of activity at a time when anti-gravity was trying to break into respectability I I couldn't get the trail that that far but I realized that there was there was a you know big physics Trail to this story um but I decided that I was going to pursue it sort of chronologically and of course when you're talking about anti-gravity you're talking about something that is a UFO that looks probably like a flying sorcerer so I start to do my due diligence which is I look at the first sightings of this kind of shape the Tic Tac of today was the Flying butane tank totally of the 1950s and you can find Declassified Air Force OSI reports that are publicly searchable right now that talk about these like flying white butane tanks [Music] right [Music] d in 1947 General Nathan Twining he's the head of the air material command responsible for all aircraft development in the Air Force writes a famous memo called the Twining memo UFO nuts love to talk about this memo because he says UFOs are not Visionary or fictitious I think the coolest update on the Twining memo comes from your book because you notice some things in the postcript of the memo that are perhaps even more intriguing than just top Air Force brass conceding the reality of UFOs yeah uh in the memo Twining States in his considered opinion quotes that the rash of UFO sightings in America during the summer of 1947 the first real wave as it turned out had been something real and not Visionary or fictitious he continued there are objects approximating the shape of a dis of such appreciable size as to appear to be as large as a man-made aircraft these discs exhibited a number of common characteristics amongst them a metallic or light reflecting surface and absence of any jet Trail and no propulsion sound and he he talks about some observables of UFOs in in his day you know extreme rates of climb maneuverability no Vapor Trails which would imply a novel form of propulsion and then he says in the postcript it is within our present knowledge to build these sorts of crafts and then with a range that you know I think the U2 spy plane hadn't even come out yet it was like you know seven years or something in the future it would come out and on on its best day I think a You2 couldn't meet the range of of the aircraft that he described at subsonic speed it's basically saying they're real but we don't know how they're flying so coming out of World War II there may have been stuff going on in World War II that we just don't know about to this [Music] day that's a perfect segue cuz from 42 to 45 you have Allied and axis fighter pilots seeing these sort of seemingly controlled ball lightning things they call them the the the Foo Fighters after like the Smoky Stover uh comic strip and then in 46 you also have Swedish ghost rockets and I think it was you know so on the radar of top military personnel in the US that Eisenhower actually sends General James dittle to go out and investigate these sort of seemingly it looks like modified versions of V2 rockets that are flying at you know speeds and with propulsion that we could you know never dream of and so you then go into kind of investigate this kind of European you know possible origination of you know these these saucers yeah um there are lots of references to food Fighters and Technologies which are really Advanced you know like there was one I seem to remember called the German name was vind hun so uh wind dog it was for sniffing the air streams behind left behind bombers in the trail of bombers so that you could follow a bomber stream from detection of its of their exhaust Trail and then as I say I think in the hunt there are a bunch of technologies that you could package together that could go into a foo fighter but you know even doing that today would be challenging I mean really challenging actually but yet you still have the sightings evidence from Allied Pilots you know a lot saying that they saw stuff so how do you square that Circle well you can't but you find a lot of interesting circumstantial evidence around the existence possibly of a secret weapons program under SS officer Hans commer called scota works yeah I I don't even think that's circumstantial I think there there's very good evidence to show that his what was called the cam he called the camab which was the uh ca's staff it was basically a special projects office run by SS General Hans camer um in the latter part of the war for secret projects I mean breakthrough technology the V2 was put under his control I think until the hunt you know very little was known about him so I thought that that was a trail worth following and it took me to some quite interesting [Music] places Hans commer was a high-ranking Nazi SS officer who oversaw the construction of several concentration camps including the notorious owitz berkana he was deeply committed to Nazi ideology and became one of Hitler's most trusted officers in the last years of the third re that is until commer turned on Hitler by 1945 commer who was already in charge of the naz's most deadly Suite of weapons had a secret plan to assassinate the furer Ker's colleague and fellow Nazi Albert Spear once said of him I discovered him to be a cold ruthless schemer a Fanatic in pursuit of a goal and as carefully calculating as he was unscrupulous as cook writes commer and his staff presided over the blackest of black Nazi secret weapons projects in modern Czechoslovakia and Poland the rumors around Ker's work take the concept of werv vafa or Wonder Weapons to the next level there are sort of six different accounts of his death you know which is always suspicion you're right there was quite a bit of evidence that CA had been in negotiations with the Ally the Western allies before uh the end of the war and of course you know the deal was the obvious one which is you get all my files um on all the technologies that I'd be in charge of um and you let me live commer oversaw V weapons Rockets remote control aircraft atomic energy jet propulsion and other similar subjects and there are many who believe that Flying Saucer shaped craft were a part of his mandate as well commer recruited Rudolph Shriver a German technician who claims to have worked on a disc-shaped craft in Prague that made its first test flight in February of 1945 climbing to 40,000 ft in 3 minutes commer also recruited Victor schauberger shalberg was a naturalist in every sense Not only was he a Forester but he held true to the maximum that science should comprehend and copy nature his ideas resemble what we now call free energy or zero point energy energy taken from the vacuum or ether there's enough energy in the volume of a coffee cup to evaporate all the world's oceans if you could get it all of it shurger had his own diagrams and designs for a flying saucer with what became known as an impeller engine you know there are some sort of pretty arcane stories about things that shabber had built that purportedly took off that um you know he was running air through at very high rotation speeds he was running water through at very high rotation speeds after leaving his home in Austria abruptly in 1942 the year commer secret projects began shabber wrote to his son that he was in yonet in Czechoslovakia and that what I am doing is secret I was able to go and visit the shurer family and they opened up their files the family files and in particular they show me Victor's diary from that time all the places he's going to on a trail he says he can't talk about are all places which I'd already mapped on the in the camer Kingdom these secret Laboratories and outposts and underground facilities that CA had built to develop his special Weaponry finally alongside them you had the famed Richard ma who also had designs for a flying saucer Maita worked in high voltage physics as further evidence that Hans kmer was working on building real flying saucers John Warner IV has a story he likes to tell about his grandfather Paul melon one of the founders of the CIA melan was in Czechoslovakia on a top secret trip at the end of World War II along with his colleague who went on to become the third director of the CIA Alan Dulles and this is what he told his grandson son and my grandfather said look you know we we were in a facility a hanger and we saw you know a German flying disc and I said you know oh is that the one that was cobbled together with six BMW jet engines and he laughed and he said no maybe the craziest rumor around Shota works is this idea of the glocka this sort of bell that at the time it was rumored to have it sort of torsion Fe and created kind of time dilation effects on the inside of the bell and you'd put a human in there and you know be kind of as if time travel because time would slow on the inside it would run at a normal Pace on the outside you'd walk out you'd be a thousand years in the future um and you had reportedly uh you know Ernest growz who's the head of the SS medical division under which Joseph mango worked and a guy named Walter gerlock who's you know a prominent German physicist who explored gravity a bit before uh you know working maybe on this this sort of exotic crazy project do you have any reason to believe that this existed well yeah I have to hold my hands up and say that um the the Bell or the the blocker story wasn't really my story you know I have to hand and I do hand in the book credit for that to a guy called e vosi who was is a Polish uh writer story in writes about German secret weapon stuff I get this connection with e pikovski who tells me all about the Bell story which is you know it's purportedly about this device that produces some kind of weird time delation effect and anti-gravitational effect and I pay this very atmospheric visit with eagle to uh the site where supposedly it was installed which was deep in a mine in a place called valenberg uh in what is now in Poland and there of course there was this thing that sort of hexagonal thing that he said was evidence of a test rig for some kind of you know disc shaped [Music] craft when you go on the ground you can see that this was a very secret installation of some kind you can still see evidence of very um thit cabling lots of electricity into this place so you know what else could it have been um I mean over time I've have come to conclude that it was probably a one of several sides that the Germans the SS in particular were using to look into uh nuclear weapon nuclear technology um beyond the Heisenberg program which was the one that everyone knows stopped in I think it was 42 or 43 one of your sources later in the Hun for zero point does say that you know there's some sort of it was called Kronos or something was he refer ing to Deer or was it another program no no I I I think it I think it was vitovsky himself who said that it was called Kronos and of course that is the Greek for what the Greek god Kronos who ruled over time um and uh in a sense over reality as well so you know if that was its name it was it could have been aply named let's go back to that Michael gladich article the G engines are coming in it he talks about G particles or gravity particles these gravitons would theoretically mediate the force of gravity much like photons mediate electromagnetism glad cites Stanley deser and Richard arnt at Princeton as being actively involved in this research the pair wrote a paper about these theoretical gravitons in their 1954 winning essay for the Gravity Research Foundation yes there was was a gravity essay contest involving the top theoretical physicists in the world at the time this shows just how bizarrely invogue the study of gravity was in the ' 50s as mathematician Lewis witton would say anti-gravity was in the wind this could mean one of two things number one that it was ubiquitous it was in the zeist and sort of everywhere but the second possible meaning is that maybe it was still everywhere but it was scattered and OB fiscated and hard to detect at the the same time in the wind is a famous term used by spies and intelligence when they go off- Grid in fact there's a 1971 Australian intelligence memo cited by David grush and others that points to this deep yet hidden American interest in anti-gravity in the ' 50s it was written by Harry Turner the head of the Australian joint intelligence organization's nuclear division The Joint intelligence organization jio was basically austral CIA the Aussies had nuclear testing facilities run by Turner that had experienced some bizarre UFO encounters and so they were starting to believe that American inquiries into UFOs and anti-gravity were far deeper than the public facing American programs like Operation Blue Book that were systematically downplaying and marginalizing the topic Project Blue Book was the best they could do at the time because they felt they had a real project going on that was secret okay is that that true and the air F did oh I didn't know that this 1971 Australian intelligence memo makes some bombshell claims it lists all of the same top aerospace companies in gad's article that cook found as being actively involved in Gravity Research margan Corporation Lear Conair Bell but it also lists top physicists you have all heard of even Robert J Oppenheimer as being actively and deeply involved in anti-gravity research finally it lists six top academic institutions as being the center of gravity research in the US Princeton Institute for advanced study and University of North Carolina Chapel Hill all doing Gravity Research at the behest of the cia's office of scientific [Music] intelligence agu bonson was the patron of the University of North Carolina Chapel Hills anti-gravity Outpost called The Institute for field physics he was an industrialist obsessed with anti-gravity and in 1957 he held the Chapel Hill conference to discuss gravity in the einsteinian Paradigm kicking off an era from 1957 to 1970 in which general relativity moved from a novel curiosity to the centerpiece of modern physics this era is now known as the Golden Age of relativity in this conference bonson convenes many of the top physicists in the world John Wheeler Richard Fineman and Freeman Dyson and the whole conference was sponsored by Wright Airfield the center of all UFO rumors who had its own theoretical physics anti-gravity division under Syracuse PhD Josh Goldberg Lewis Whitten was at the Chapel Hill conference too and where was Lewis Wht working on gravity at none other than George trimble's special research division at Martin corpor ation the research institute for advanced study he also was studying anti-gravity for right Airfield the reason there was a laboratory at wrightfield was to find out what we were doing and to help us do it and I got a contract from rightfield to do it to do gravity which I did very happily so with all of the money and resources funneling into Gravity Research in the 50s and all of the time that's elaps since are we really supposed to believe that we've made no progress on the topic maybe who knows but to frame things slightly differently if we have made any progress on anti-gravity but that progress got turned into special access programs or was militarized it might look like we haven't made any progress you'd never be able to tell the difference maybe a hint lies with agnu bonson of The Institute of field physics the anti-gravity obsessed Patron wrote a science fiction book before his timely death in a plane crash it was called the stars are too high and it involves a team of Rogue Nazi scientists who were captured and moved to America after the war culminating in a collaboration to build man-made flying saucers utilizing anti-gravity the makers of these saucers hatch up a plan to fake an alien invasion in order to quell tensions between the Russians and the United States [Music] and then I go to as you say I go to town Zen Brown who was as you've ay uh covered in a previous film an inventor he had some connection to Loy in one of my recent videos the man who built UFOs for the CIA we cover the life of the most interesting man you've probably never heard of Thomas Townsen Brown Brown was a mid-century engineer and inventor whose life is shrouded in mystery and rif with controversy some people believe he made vital discoveries in the world of anti-gravity While others think he was an amateur quack one piece of blowback I got after making that documentary was the proposition that Brown's work could have made it into the B2 stealth bomber for a while I I looked at whether the B2 uh bomber might have employed some kind of towns and brown type technique to make it a little stealthier make it a little less uh prone to drag those are both byproducts of electrostatics you charge something electrostatically and you reduce its radar signature that's useful for a stealth bomber uh you charge it electrostatically and you might reduce its drag there were Papers written uh by the Aerospace industry on that you know in the early 1960s by northr I seem to remember papers that were pulled that you had a sorus at an anonymous Source out here that noticed that they were pulled from the aia's records as as far as I know they at that time they were as I say in my video I can't definitively say that Brown's work made it into the B2 but I'll just lay out the facts and you decide towns and brown met with Edward Teller in 1965 who by many accounts including this 1971 Australian intelligence memo was working on anti-gravity research since the ' 50s at his Berkeley home teller is shown a demo by Brown of his fan precipitator this freaks teller out so much that he turns to his wife and says I don't know how this works Townsen Brown's daughter Linda who is still alive was present at that meeting and confirmed this account and he looks at it and finally he said I don't understand how it works a prominent Aerospace investor and lawyer named Floyd odam gets tipped off about teller's astonishment and decides to become the sole investor in Brown's Santa Monica based company guidance Technologies odam also happens to be a majority owner of northr before its merger with grummet while at guidance Technologies Brown continues his anti-gravity work on electrostatics while conducting this work he's meeting with Bill leer former Air Force Chief of Staff Curtis lame the Rand Corporation and other Titans of Aerospace in the fall of 1967 Brown shuts the company down with no explanation saying he got no results but in the winter of 1968 just 3 months after Brown shuts down guidance Technologies Northrup who has the same investor as brown Floyd odam happens to publish a paper on Electro aerodynamics and electrogravitics and its implications for Aviation electrogravitics is only used to describe one thing at the time and it's hound and Brown's work did Brown shut down guidance Technologies just to have his IP cover Bly transferred to northrip Grumman his sole Investor's biggest interest well two decades later when northrup's B2 stealth bomber is revealed to the world Aviation weekly says it used an electrokinetic effect in its wings producing a Byfield Brown effect the B2 surfs its own electrostatic wave the negative Cloud chasing the positive wing and not to mention Brown's wife Josephine received checks from odam for the rest of her life Mr odam K forc them to ass a contract with my dad that was open ended it was something like 2500 a month after daddy died it was what kept my mother going 2500 wow never and I had to think I had to think oh L for that but there are other conventional prominent journalists who believe that Brown's work made it into the B2 stealth bomber I do sign in the book Bill Gunston who was another James editor and Bill Gunston was kind of like the doen of Aerospace just a very dogged data guy and he comes up with this story saying that the b2s performance data does not add up yeah you know it given the power of its engines it shouldn't be able to take off so what's going on and you I thought you know a lot of us thought well for you to say that bill yeah that's weird that's odd that's and he adds this kind of epithet like well you know I think I'm going to draw the line under this story cuz I don't want to end up in the Tower of London that's right AKA you know a a deep dark prison yeah that once was and um he says I've long been familiar with the rudiments of towns and Brown's work but I don't want to reside in the Tower of London so I will refrain from speaking about leading edges of millions of volts positive followed by trailing edges of Millions the volts negative which is a description of course of towns and Brown's kind of capacitor [Music] work some even think that B2 was named after Byfield Brown B2 two B's Byfield Brown so what do you think and why is this even important if it were true because if Brown's work made it into the B2 then it means his work touched reality that means some of his other more exotic anti-gravity experiments which also involved many credible Witnesses all of whom I mention in my documentary may have been valid too it at least makes that more probable and quickly dispels the popular image of towns and brown that he was an amateur quack who never got [Music] anywhere I I always liked your book because it was kind of a um it was very skeptical it was it was just hard-headed and it was so you had all this epistemic like you were a real journalist in a world of quacky woo woo you know looking for meaning types of people and so I go I go in you know reading the book and I'm like you know to the shatkin book and I'm like you know is is there anything here and honestly the stuff that made me higher conviction in brown it's not only these sort of threads we've pieced together in Aerospace but it's like the way he communicated with his family about a lot of this stuff where it's like I don't think he's scoping them you know that that just fascinated me and it it felt like it almost beget an expanded worldview I mean what is what is interesting about Brown you know is his involvement supposedly in the Philadelphia Experiment you know about a disappearing warship and time travel and all of that and you think where did that come from and and why the Philadelphia Experiment was a long rumored supposed Navy experiment in 1943 that turned the USS Eldridge invisible and teleported it from Philadelphia to norfol Virginia it spawned a book a movie and all sorts of crazy time travel and teleportation mythology I think the lore around this experiment is mostly total quackery and a bit insane and the experiment likely just involved a high voltage envelope created around the ship in order to render it undetectable scrambling its magnetic signature to avoid underwater mines Torpedoes and radar that account is also backed up by Edward dudon a Navy electrician that corresponded with legendary French UFO researcher jacqu fet in the 9s but Townsen Brown likely was involved in the experiment in fact he was stationed at norfol Virginia at the time he also told his friend Josh Reynolds late in life that the Philadelphia Experiment did happen its events were just greatly exaggerated this also explains the 1943 FBI file on Brown saying that he knew more about radar than anyone in the Navy at the time as we all know the best kind of disinformation always has a little bit of Truth seated in there somewhere so what Earth was going on there you know there you there could have been a breakthrough then there there could have been yeah um people say Secrets don't keep that long well you know I've already talked about a couple I know of that kept for 35 to 40 years um the answer is they do keep for a long time they can do and particularly when you put in special measures you know the disinfo stuff around [Music] them from there I went to some white World lab test experiments which were going on in NASA at the time NASA had exhibited weirdly an interest in anti-gravity in the sort of mid 1990s following reports that a guy he was a Russian called yevi pod ketov who' been working out of the University of Tamp in Finland had noticed a weight loss effect in objects suspended above very rapidly rotating superconductors so NASA wanted to replicate that and to the best of my knowledge they were never able to and from there it just kind of snowballed yeah yeah the final thread here is this woman named ning Lee who is in Alabama uh and she's working on anti-gravity experiment ments and you actually interviewed her right she's been brought up actually in the context of she brought up by by Joe Rogan and some other podcasters very recently because she has this bizarre disappearance have you heard about that there's a story about this Chinese scientist that was working on anti-gravity and then vanished that's very controversial ning Lee was a Chinese American physicist who's experiencing a Resurgence of interest in the last few years Lee was born in China in 1943 and at the age of 40 in 1983 she moved to the Aerospace Mecca Huntsville Alabama joining the University of Huntsville Alabama's physics department along with her colleague Douglas tour Lee developed a theory of gravity manipulation involving the alignment of the rotation of ions into a lattice called a Bose Einstein condensate that she thought could counteract gravity nobody found any mistake in my papers then she tested it suspending test Mass above a spinning superconductor and according to her saw some pretty Paradigm shifting results publishing that the various masses she tested would lose between. 5% and 2.1% of their weight across multiple trials this is an absolutely insane claim achieving weight loss or any gravity reduction on a suspended object through the simple input of alternating current electricity would break our conventional understanding of physics it would unify the field finally reconciling electromagnetism and gravity something Einstein could never do but people don't believe it I know until I got an experimental result after claiming to achieve these groundbreaking results ning Lee then makes an interesting move she leaves University of Huntsville Alabama to start her own company AC gravity LLC in fact Lee's physics chair at Huntsville Larry SMY was so convinced by the groundbreaking experimental results Lee had shown that he also left the University of Huntsville to join Lee at her company when I heard this story at rang a bell I had remembered that name Larry SMY where had I seen it well he's the same guy on NASA patents filed in 2004 out of the Marshall space flight center the patent is for a novel barrel-shaped asymmetric capacitor a again capacitors are the core instrument in towns and& Browns experiments the fact that SMY was on the patent got me thinking that maybe there's a possible lineage between ning Lee and Townsen Brown after Lee forms her company with SMY AC gravity LLC they immediately win a DOD contract Lee gets a security clearance and she seems to go silent for 20 years at the time of her winning that contract her son George noted a stark change in Lee's cheery demeanor and an increased secretiveness and somberness around the house in 2008 Lee was approached at her home by the CCP to continue her work in China she refused causing them to retaliate by Banning her from the country even to attend her own mother's funeral if this part of the story is true Lee is an absolute American Patriot in 2014 Lee was tragically hit by a car the shock of which gave her husband who was walking with her a lethal heart attack and it gave Lee brain impairment until her recent death in 2021 what happened to ning Lee uh yeah I I admit her and I did sit down I interviewed her and this was at a conference in 2003 just outside of Washington DC uh run by the overse by the MIT Corporation and it was looking at I think high frequency gravitational waves and um you know she she was an interesting character because she had been involved in some of those NASA uh experiments I mentioned earlier about um rotating superconductors and weight loss experiments and um she she shared one of the sessions I talked to her afterwards about it all she had this view that this was science and technology that should be for the people it should be you know very um uh philanthropic in its you know nature and outcomes and then I don't know s how soon after that it was that she s went off grid certainly probably about within within a year but she just disappeared and no one knew what happened to her there there are rumors of this sort of tech being possibly of dual use there's a quote from Paul shatkins book actually that Brown's work could turn a doer thermonuclear bomb into a child's firecracker sort of like this death ray that could end the world which would obviously be you know you'd have to be very conscious about how you release something like that probably never want to release something like that at least in our present State of Consciousness is Humanity so indeed yeah yeah um no uh yeah definitely a deal use aspect to it I'm sure um so uh yeah we have to slightly get ourselves up to the point where we responsible enough to use it [Music] responsibly coming kind of later into the book who is Boyd Bushman okay so uh when I finished German investig bit uh I came back to the US again and was introduced there a locky Martin to a guy called Boyd Bushman dror Boyd Bushman who was a senior scientist at Loy Mar Fort Worth and um I sit down and interview Boyd for a documentary I was making at the time called bondor secret and he's the first person in the Aerospace industry who talks to me about you know anti-gravity and um it's not crazy you know and he even gives me some pointers and says you know you should go and check this out and go and check that out um and so I did uh one of the pointers he he gave me was to a guy called John lerson who was Canadian inventor in working out of Vancouver who apparently had been funded whose anti-gravitational experiments have been funded by the dod um in fact by um the guy who headed that up was quite well moan in s parapsychological circles uh Colonel John Alexander and it involved a lot of kind of crazy equipment which John had assembled and put together in one place which I witnessed when I went over to his home it was stuff full of old oscilloscopes and you know bandag graph generators go those were I then spoke to John Alexander about it who said unfortunately when I set up all the equipment under laboratory conditions none of it worked couldn't replicate anything but off camera um and out of the laboratory yeah people saw stuff fly across the room and the big question for John and the team was was this the equipment that was doing it or was it somehow John huton doing it with his mind and John always says it's the equipment but you know there are others who became relatively convinced that there was some psychokinetic kind of influence on it all [Music] Ben Rich was a talented engineer originally hired as a thermody dynamicist for locked Martin before moving over to its most secretive aircraft and weaponry division Skunk Works in 1975 he took over Skunk Works from the legendary Kelly Johnson and would go on to play a vital role in the development of American stealth plans like the f117 he did this by resuscitating the work of an obscure Russian mathematician in the' 60s named uev who developed equations for predicting the reflection of electromagnetic waves sounds like a conventionally successful career in Aerospace right well at a UCLA speech in the 9s towards the end of his life Ben Rich the former director of skunkworks made some very strange comments alluding to locki skunkworks having the technology to quote unquote take ET home and travel across various star systems when asked how exactly that would work this is what he said he said well let me ask you a question how does ESP work and it just threw me back I think oh my God I wasn't expecting a question I was expecting him to just say something and he said I said I don't know all points and space and time are connected that's how it works turned around walked away later Ben Rich apparently said this on his deathbed to John Andrews of tester's Motor Corporation we already have the means to travel among the s but these Technologies are locked up in Black projects and it would take an act of God to ever get them out to benefit Humanity what did Rich mean and why did Rich's successor skunkworks director Robert Weiss get involved in Tom Dong's public facing UFO organization to the Stars Academy these are all good questions very worthy of followup you know I inter I interviewed benri a couple of times yeah he talked in Parables he talked in analogies you know when we were talking about Stealth and he said there was a time when stealth was deemed to be so challenging uh you know it wasn't an easy thing at all to get an algorithm basically a radar baffling algorithm to fly um he said we considered actually burying the whole thing I mean before we even got started and burying it so that no one else got the idea it was a little bit like bomb physics you know at the moment when um Einstein wrote that letter to Roosevelt saying that a bomb is possible you then started to get all or a lot of traces of what then had been open discussion about um the atom splitting the atom all of that began to disappear and it was it was for a while contemplated by the dod the few who knew about stuff and the Skunk Works they should do the same thing this thing was so challenging that they wouldn't go ahead with it they'd do something else and meanwhile they'd erase all traits of you know talk about radar baffling algorithms and stuff there was even a rift right between Kelly Johnson Ben Rich's predecessor and Ben Rich Ben Rich was very Pro stealth but Kelly Johnson was kind of anti- Stealth at the end of his career right I believe that to be the case I mean I I'm yeah's book well there yes I'm pretty sure that was the case I mean there were lots of sort of there were lots of different camps uh for and against stealth for sure um but in you know and then as Ben rich said to me so in effect what we would have done he said we would have you know we would have boxed this thing up we would have put a kind of date stamp on not to be opened um until you know 2050 or whatever and we would have slid it into a warehouse that looked a metaphorical Warehouse that would have looked or resembled that which you see at the end of Raiders of the Lost AR with the AR I have no idea what he meant by that um so I sort of rather sort of ducked ducked away from it yeah well then you have this bizarre Resurgence of kind of Skunk Works uh kind of public facing propaganda around UFOs or anti-gravity in the form of to the Stars Academy the question I've always had is like you know is is there Rob Weiss got very interested he kind of helped Tom dong actually write a couple of books secret machines and then this other one with Peter lenda and um he gets interested in the whole topic when Tom dong and Peter lenda start talking about Celestial Ascent practices and cabala and so is there is there anything there like is there is there through is there through line with Aerospace and like this interest in mind over matter I mean James McDonald is a famous Patron obviously was very interested in parapsychology as well at McDonald Douglas they had their own Institute he's very close with Bob JN who's running the par Lab at Princeton so is there is there is there like a reality to this you know this interest of Aerospace and Consciousness well I'm very aware of the McDonald one that you mentioned um and you know there are Declassified papers to show McDonald uh instructing his company or or members of his you know officials within his company to go study UFOs to see what you can learn from them the idea being you transpose that knowledge into Aerospace programs presumably um I'm not I'm not aware of it at the Skunk Works I'm not aware of it at anywhere else the thing that I am aware of is that these companies look at anything they can that can confer possible Advantage um whatever that is and I mean the other thing that impressed itself upon me and has always impressed itself upon me is how much further the Aerospace and defense industry is prepared to go in terms of looking at what you might call heretical science than science itself is and then you know you only have to go to something like remote viewing the psychic spying program to know that agencies like the CIA definitely saw advantage in heretical science I mean there's nothing scientific uh uh to explain remote viewing but still they went ahead and did it anyway and funded it for 18 years or something yeah you told me once that benr would refer to UFOs as unfunded opportunities well as we've already discussed you know these these organizations aren't past misleading you I mean and why not I mean I get it I don't I'm not grieved by the fact that I'm playing a game with them or at least you know when I was doing this I was playing a game with them I sort of I knew that it's the it's a very fine line it's a double-edged sword you cannot be seen to be misleading the Press um or or or even more than that don't get caught if you do do it because that's self-limiting you know after a while people then begin to question you know you the ethics of your company you know what you're up to Etc so whatever game is being played is incredibly subtle I me I think Ben Rich was subtle I mean he he made some very enigmatic statements about these things and particularly you know where they classified aircraft buted up against the whole UFO law um the unfunded opportunity thing I mean you can take that at face value which is that that he really did see um funding opportunities in in everything or in a lot and you know part of the CH the charter of the Skunk Works was uh to to to to push technology in addition to responding to the pull of technology in other words requirements pulls from you know the dod or or whoever um so you know they were always coming up with concepts for you know interesting weird flying craft there was this mythical aircraft out there called Aurora and Aurora was supposed to be a replacement for the SR71 Blackbird which remains to this day I think the fastest uh jet power airplane ever built even though it retired in 1990 and Bill again he became convinced that there was that this aircraft existed bill was a kind of Sherlock Holmes of um our world he would piece together clues that the black World left in public or hadn't even intended to leave in public and would follow these Clues and build them up and so between us we went on this kind of hunt for classified aircraft of which there were a few in the ' 80s and '90s and so that's sort of that was my grounding in the world of sort of you know secret stuff doesn't he he kind of um documents an oil rig engineer right in the North Sea uh drawing up a little sketch of the Aurora right and then you have uh unattributable Sonic booms uh in the desert of California uh that you know it's clearly not the space shuttle it's not the SR71 and so what's what's going on there and then you had your own experience right at at Skunk Works do you want to talk about that yeah uh it's quite a quite a bit to put together there uh so um yes there were there were sightings and there were soundings of this thing um purportedly so the US Geological Survey had um detected through its seismic sensors in California which are there to obviously to monitor for earthquake activity it had detected um booms Sonic booms coming in from the Pacific heading towards Area 51 in Nevada because that you could the sensors you could the sensors were positioned in such a way that you could track the progress of you know whatever seismic disturbance or sonic disturbance there was and all of these um booms were tracking towards Area 51 in Nevada um it wasn't the space shuttle because the space shuttle wasn't flying that day um other aircraft were deemed uh not to be responsible for it so that was kind of one pointer towards a secret Hypersonic aircraft that was under test um in at Area 51 in the late 1980s the oil rig sighting was interesting um so a guy called Chris Gibson who was working on an oil on an oil rig in the North Sea uh somewhere between the UK and Germany I guess or Norway he looks up and he sees this Dart likee Black Arrow shaped thing um High uh escorted by what he took to be I think it was three or four f-111s which were uh swing Wing American aircraft which were based in the UK at the time and it was being tanked in midair by uh a Boeing uh tanker uh 135 tanker uh you know we used to get reports like this all the time into Janes you know and I would or Bill would but uh what made this one credible was that Chris Gibson was a royal Observer core Observer m uh the Royal Observer Corp was set up as a sort of Citizen monitoring service for the impending War second world war and is incredibly disciplined in its approach to how it observes things so Chris Gibson was no ordinary plain spotter he was a royal Observer cor PL Spotter and he drew a sketch of this thing immediately afterwards um and then I think he sat on it for a while but then um eventually sent it to Bill Sweetman and um Bill ran then a story piecing together the evidence for Aurora uh with all the engineering evidence and there was a lot of engineering evidence too because there was a program running at the time through NASA and the dod called nasp National Aerospace plane um the x30 set up by sort of started by Reagan um with lots of money behind it Reagan called it the Orient Express in that this thing was due to fly from the US to somewhere in Singapore China Hong Kong wherever um in 45 minutes and Bill became convinced that nasp was actually a cover program for Aurora in that it it sort of channeled through the white world so through the non-classified world a bunch of Technologies like um uh scramjets you know supersonic combustion ramjets uh which is what you'd need for a very highflying um sort of super cruising uh aircraft uh like Aurora um and also things like um new materials I mean materials uh in Hypersonic program are key because you know uh basic Metals had kind of reached the end of their useful life as an airframe um material you had to come up with new new stuff like sort of pyrro ceramic and Bill had tracked a lot of this through nasp nasp then died went nowhere supposedly um but it was felt at least by Bill and I tend to agree with him that there were spin-offs from that program that went into a classified program uh so while bill was off doing all of this stuff um I was uh interviewing various people about yeah it was mainly day-to-day bread and butter stuff and one of the series that I wanted to run was about how the Skunk Works which is the secret sort of development High very high-tech arm of Loy Martin how techniques from these companies which were then beginning to come out of the Shadows just after the end of the Cold War after the fall of the Berlin War um how they were spinning out their hard earned business Acumen and sort of how to build things quick and cheaply um because of course they' done that in the black um uh into the overall Corporation so there was a business story there um and I went to talk to the head of the Skunk Works guy then head of the Skunk Works I think who took over after maybe a couple after the famous Ben Rich who I'd also interviewed um but uh Jack Gordon U was then the head of the skunk work so I went to interview him and in a rare dispensation they invited me to go and interview him in the headquarters building which is actually on the secret part of the skunk work site normally you'd interview somebody like that in what's kind of like a the comp Skunk Works had an airlock which was a sanitized part of the of of the Skunk Works across the railway tracks in Palmdale where you would not encounter anything secret but I was escorted onto um the sort of secret part into the headquarters building interviewed Jack Gordon who said a few weird things like I've I've been responsible for 15 real flying uh aircraft in my time um but I can sorry I can only talk about 12 of them so there were these missing three which you know we chitch about for a while but I didn't get very far and those aircraft have never to my knowledge those have never been revealed those those missing three um and so then when the interview finished I was being escorted back out of the building again to the waiting car that would take me back to the sanitized part of Skunk Works um when I'm passing this org chart and it's a chart that depicts in graphical form aircraft from the Skunk Works Beginnings which were in 19 some 1940s um through to the then uh modern day which was as I say mid 90s so I think um the aircraft that should have been at the top of that list that was acknowledged it was either the the Prototype of the F22 the yf-22 or it was Darkstar which was a drone which got canceled um I think it was darkar that's what I should have seen instead what I saw above it was something called Astra mhm and I I turned to my escort and I said oh that's interesting what's Astra and you've never seen anyone bundled out of a building so quickly as I was uh when I uh when I mentioned that that plane now a few post I I talk about that in the hump serero Point as you say there were a few postscripts to that which came after I'd written the hunt um one was that uh I ran into I just through the job I ran into several bosses of the Skunk Works after Jack Gordon at various trade shows and what have you um one of them I sat down and talked to about that incident I said are you aware of you know that Astra incident and what happened to me and he said oh yeah he said we're all aware of of that incident um we we uh you know there's no one in the skwor because who doesn't know what happened that day I showing that there's something there well maybe or so I go it would be not memorable if there was nothing there yeah because because on the face of it it was a major [ __ ] up I mean it was a real goof and so I said okay well let's talk about that I said that's interesting so um so what's happened to Astra then he said oh it hasn't flown yet I'm guessing this is could be a decade after this incident happened so I said okay I said are you expecting it to fly anytime soon and he said yeah it'll make an appearance sometime soon okay so um and I go I said thanks okay and he says something enigmatic like keep watching the skies you know um anyway it hasn't appeared to the best of my knowledge it has not appeared either uh a various drone programs have but I don't think they really account for what I saw or the description of it so I think that's the end of the story and it was only relatively recently I mean like a few years back um I keep all my Diaries so I'm flicking back through my Diaries and I come across the day that I went to the Skunk Works and I saw Astra at the top of that chart and I look at the date and it's April the 1 April Fool's Day and that makes me think okay okay I think I understand what was happening that day which was yeah I think so why was I ushered into the headquarters building when no one else was they knew I was going to be writing a story about this stuff it was all sanctioned it was on the record um and conveniently as I walk out of the building I see the org chart which actually I'm amazed I missed it on the way in maybe somebody put it up while I was doing the interview anyway I see the the org chart and you could construe it this way which is that I was meant to see it and I was meant to write it and mhm you know there is no there are all kinds of tricks and games and things you know that you know wittingly unwittingly uh we we we get drawn into you know as as journalists and it wouldn't surprise me at all if you know going back home and when I did write about it and I did put a really big caveat into that story when I wrote about it saying I can't be sure that something like Astra exists and I don't even know what it is or what it could be if it exists it could a stealth aircraft it could be a reconnaissance aircraft it could be a Hypersonic plane but I think someone somewhere wanted me to write about it interesting and so you know those are the sorts of kind of breadcrumbs that you get fed and of course you've got to try and people watch watchful eye out this was after you had been digging up with Bill Sweetman a lot of the kind of facts around the Aurora and You' been on record so so that would make we published a a big story about Aurora in Jam's defense week okay well then they could have been trying to trick you could have been because you know if you're already on their radar why have you in the you know next to the crown jewels at the you know the center of everything in Palmdale that's interesting but the Aurora there's just so I mean there's the evidence we just discussed and then there's also you know I think uh British Ministry of Defense documents from the early 90s talking about uh Hypersonic craft with kind of Novel propulsion from the US there's a 1968 or sorry 198 budget where it shows up as a line item for I think like2 billion or something and Ben Rich has to kind of explain that away yeah so do you I mean do you have like a base case of you know are these are these crafts real or or not or you know obviously have to think probabilistically but yeah I mean I as you say there are very good pointers to say it existed um not least of which was it appeared a pretty firm conviction by the UK mod that it existed and that appearances of this aircraft over the UK um there were rumors it was based out of the UK for a while at a a a remote Scottish Base called RF mahanes um so there was that side of things I've interview I mean I had a fascinating talk with an RAF pilot um that I ran into once who said that he had talked to Pilots who had encountered the Aurora in the North Sea I mean over the North Sea and actually uh if that was the case a tornado RAF tornado with swing Wings actually looks an awful lot like an F-111 um and despite the skills of Chris Gibson he could have mistaken a tornado swing-wing tornado for a swinging f111 so there I've had it you know on pretty good authority from people all you know qualified RAF military Pilots oh and sworn to secrecy as well on that that the thing was real um I and sort of but just on a sort of gut level sort of instinct thing I think the the the the slam dunk for me was an interview I did which I also talk about in the hunt for zero point with a guy called General George mullner who was the US Air Force's head of research and development until his retirement in 1998 I was lucky in that I got to interview him on the day of his retirement so I think it was in June or July 1998 um and the the subject was black programs so that was the official on the record that's what we were going to talk about uh discussion and I filmed it for a documentary that I did uh at the time called billion dollar Secret and I bring up all of these sightings you know with him of weird craft that have been spotted in Colorado and Nevada and I said look you know some of these things are silent For Heaven's Sake you know they hover over Witnesses they make no noise and I'm talking about some pretty grounded Witnesses here you know there are ranchers who they know the land they might not know too much about aircraft but they have a good sense of what's going on in their and over their territory um and and I and so we talked a little bit about that and he was kind of joking about UFO sightings over you know Utah Cal Colorado and Nevada and then we got onto the subject of Aurora and I said look um you know you're retiring today what can you say about the existence of this mythical Mark 5 Hypersonic aircraft and he said well I'll leave you with a sort of bit of a puzzle and he said we had we had a problem in the late 80s early 90s which was um the SR71 Blackbird was retiring uh we had a generation of um analog satellites which was um coming to an end and was being retired fa out of service deorbited um and there was a new generation of these Keyhole satellites I think it was kh1 Keyhole satellites which were digital satellites which fed realtime imagery um back to Earth he said but we had a gap between the two we had no SR71 we had no satellite coverage said what would you do so well what I would do is pretty much what um most people Bill Sweetman included kind of think Aurora was which was a what they call a Deployable prototype so you build a few to test the concept see if it works you might send it on a few missions you might even deploy it to somewhere like the UK for a bit uh but you know this thing is expensive it drinks whatever fuel um it uses and uh whilst it's it has a utility the utility of a thing like Aurora even when you have spy satellites is that you know when spy satellites are coming over and you can scoot and hide from them you don't know when a Hypersonic aircraft is coming over uh or you don't have much warning time so there was real utility in this thing but you know if you take General Muller's advice at face value um this thing just filled a gap and when it had done its job of filling the Gap they went back to spy satellites M interesting that's an interesting Theory you know the technology is one thing but actually it's sort of really more a journey of the mind it's about the notion that you know there are some things that we might never ever know about and we have to live with that and and that's that can be frustrating for people I mean it was frustrating for me at the time and how do you how do you shake out on all this I know we're kind of wrapping up here but how how do you um do you think that Aerospace made real breakthroughs and anti-gravity do you think they didn't where you know where where do where are they now well you know I again our interview sadly abruptly stopped recording here due to some mysterious AV difficulties at our Studios right at a pivotal time in which Nick cook was answering maybe the most important question but I think it's sort of fitting for this topic and it does Justice to the healthy Nuance of the hunt for zero point if you take my friend and founder of army Futures command Carl Nell's statements in the debrief to be true then we're in an arms race right now with the Russians and the Chinese to reverse engineer UFOs if that's the case the US government should be very worried the American programs are balkanized siloed in these old stodgy corporations that hit their peaks in the 50s and 60s they're not hiring America's best and brightest because they don't want to risk losing their super secret IP isn't it in their best interest to just get immunity for themselves and try to refresh the talent pool if these people are you know it's they're all old and it's completely compartmentalized and they haven't made you know the Wilson they're completely arrogant completely arrogant but you can be sure that the Russians and Chinese with their nationalized and centralized efforts are recruiting their best scientists to work on these topics they're not worried about losing profits they're focused instead on National Defense I also think that as far as pushing disclosure around the ontological truth behind a lot of this secret science and the UFO question the National Security argument just seems to get lawmakers attention much faster than anything else finally I think that all technology is dual use an Academia has completely stagnated and is stuck in the wrong Frameworks so if we can funnel more money and resources into these heterodox science projects we can make progress much faster personally I'm far more interested in the potential for this technology to actually take us Interstellar and if we do live in a Multiverse as physicists and the public love to theorize these days then cracking gravity might be the key to Jumping timelines in general relativity gravity and time are tightly coupled so the only way to manipulate time would involve the manipulation of gravity an all true Interstellar travel would require time travel or space-time metric Engineering in the 1950s the future was an exciting thing we weren't locked into this AI dystopian nightmare we find ourselves in today if we figure out the gravity question maybe we can get back to the future or in the words of the great Donnie Darko learn to travel in God's Channel I hope you all enjoyed this and learned something I want to thank Nick cook for his time and his excellent book The Hunt for zero point please go out and read it along with his new amazing serialized book on substack the light beyond the mountains which I'm linking in the description till next time I'm Jesse Michaels and this is American Alchemy