Reality Check: David Grusch’s UFO revelations, JFK Files & border wall drone probe l Backscroll

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Tonight, for the first time, a former senior military intelligence officer comes forward to say what we've only imagined is true. >> You are saying to the human race for the first time, we are not alone. >> We're definitely not alone. >> Claims that our government has proof of alien life. >> We have spacecraft from another species.

>> We do. Yeah. How many? Quite a number. Some are landed, some are crashed. >> Allegations of a secret government program that has hidden the truth, the technology from the world.

>> There's a sophisticated uh disinformation campaign targeting the US populace, which is extremely unethical and immoral and it's totally totally frightening. >> From Roswell to the present day, >> they're all going against the wind. The wind's 120 knots west. >> There are non-prosaic cases, 100% unexplainable. I mean, this is like tangible technical craft they're seeing.

>> Is this decorated officer a liar? >> Why should we believe you? >> A fool? >> Is it possible that you're deluding yourself >> or a hero? >> I'm a patriot and I I believe the truth to power in this. >> We're talking about the biggest secret in human history. >> We are not alone. The UFO whistleblower speaks. >> Good evening.

I'm Elizabeth Vargas here to bring you a NewsNation exclusive interview with a man we're calling the UFO whistleblower. David Grush is a career intelligence official who this week is making some bombshell claims of a US government coverup going back nearly a century. Shedding light, he says, on that existential question. Are we alone? News Nation has confirmed David Grush's credentials and resume. We have not seen or verified the alleged proof he says he's provided to investigators, but we want you to hear his story so you can decide for yourself.

Mr. Grush sat down with investigative journalist Ross Colart, who is reporting for NewsNation. Mr. Colart is an award-winning journalist and author who has reported for the Australian version of 60 Minutes, as well as other news programs in his home country. What you're about to see is part of their conversation touching on Mr.

Gusher's work with the UAP task force, his background and his service to this country, and the alleged secret military program about which he says the world needs to know. >> For decades, the UFO question has been consigned to the realm of speculation, conspiracy theory, and science fiction. But in recent years, serious people have started taking the subject seriously. >> You'll see it uh come through the top of the screen. There it goes.

>> Prompted in part by the release of these videos purporting to show encounters between American naval aviators and what the Pentagon has labeled unidentified aerial or anomalous phenomena. Congress has convened hearings to determine what these UAP are and what threat they might pose. If UAP do indeed represent a potential threat to our security, then the capabilities, systems, processes, and sources we use to observe, record, study, or analyze these phenomena need to be classified at appropriate levels. The Department of Defense has established a special team, formerly known as the UAP Task Force, recently renamed the All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office, or ARO, to investigate and identify what are now hundreds of reported sightings. So far, they have not confirmed any of them to constitute proof of alien life.

Officially, the government continues to state, "We are indeed alone." But now, for the first time, a former member of that official investigative team is speaking out, telling a stunning story that impacts every person on this planet. And now you're about to meet that man for the very first time in this exclusive television interview. Welcome. Have a seat. Maybe start off telling me your name and who you are.

>> My name is uh David Grush. You know, I came from a bluecollar family in Pittsburgh. I didn't have the money for college. Always admired people in uniform. And I've always wanted to be a part of something bigger than myself.

You know, 18 years ago, you know, I got a Air Force scholarship for physics. Uh I originally commissioned on active duty in the Air Force. uh served 14 years in the Air Force. >> I look at this photograph, Dave, and I see a very proud officer. >> Uh I was getting promoted to captain when I was uh deployed.

>> And you still love your country, don't you? >> Absolutely. >> A career intelligence officer, Grush spent time on the ground in Afghanistan and other places he can't mention before rotating back to Washington. >> I was an intel officer for the US for 14 years. my last position which I left in April of 2023. Um I co-led the UAP portfolio for the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency and some of the highest officials within the Department of Defense and intelligence community used to call on me to advise them on some of the hardest uh target sets that the country had.

>> You are one of the most trusted former intelligence officials in the US defense and intelligence establishment. >> Yes, I was. You were trusted with the most intimate secrets. >> Yes. >> And he says the most earthshattering of those secrets were revealed after 2019 when he was invited to join the UAP task force.

You had the security classifications to go anywhere and ask anyone anything. >> I had based on my formal security clearance and multiple polygraphs. I had the ability uh to be read into any program that I needed. At one point in time, I was extremely highly cleared. >> What conclusion did you come to at the end of your time on the UAP task force? >> Uh the UAP task force was refused access to um a broad crash retrieval program.

>> When you say crash retrieval, what do you mean? >> Uh these are retrieving nonhuman origin uh technical vehicles. You know, call it spacecraft, if you will. Non-human exotic origin vehicles that have either landed or crashed. >> We have spacecraft from another species. >> We do.

Yeah. >> How many? >> Quite a number. >> You're kidding. >> No. I thought it was totally nuts and I thought at first I was being deceived.

It was a ruse. People started confiding in me. They approached me. I have plenty of current former senior intelligence officers that came to me, many of which I knew almost my whole career that convided to me they were a part of a program. They named the program.

I've never heard of it. And they they told me based on their oral testimony um and they provided me documents and other other proof that there was in fact a program that the UAP task force was uh not read into. You are alleging that the US government has been concealing the existence on this planet of alien life. >> I would couch it as non-human intelligence. You know, NHI, like we like to say in our our language.

>> Why do you say that? Why do you say NHI? >> I don't want to necessarily denote origin. I don't think we have all the data to say, oh, they're coming from a certain a certain location. And I and I I couch it as somebody who studied physics where maybe they're coming from a different physical dimension as described in quantum mechanics. We know there's extra dimensions due to high uh high energy particle collisions etc. And there's a theoretical framework to explain that.

Yeah. >> Just let me cut to the quick though. You're saying there is an intelligent species engaging with this planet. >> Yes. That's potentially extraterrestrial.

Yeah. >> I speak for everybody sitting at home. That is a shock. it was to me and uh I had a lot of sleepless nights. >> Grush says he's never personally seen nonhuman intelligence, but he's spoken to enough people directly involved in what he calls the program that he's convinced it's real.

>> I started out as a non-believer. I came to the the problem as a hardcore physics guy, intel officer. So I have a you know, excuse my language, high factor. I was very methodical interviewing people who didn't know each other, making sure this wasn't some kind of cover up of some other program. >> He says he pressed to gain direct access to this program and that's when his trouble started.

Grush claims his investigation was stymied, his requests for access rebuffed. >> They shut the door in my face. They denied me access to these programs. >> Soon after, he says he endured reprisals and retaliation from above. He then reported that information to the intelligence community inspector general.

That's why he's filed this whistleblower complaint. He says that experience is why he decided to go public here and in a recent article written by Leslie Kaine in the debrief. You're not being paid for this interview. >> No, I'm not. >> Why are you doing this? >> It's a sense of service.

You know, call me a boy scout or or whatever. just a when I saw the kind of wrongdoing I did. I don't want to be 60 70 years old in the future and uh have that you know could have should have would a kind of uh feeling where I I could have made a difference. I do not want to live a life of regret. You are saying to the human race for the first time, an official intelligence representative at a high level from the US government is saying publicly, we are not alone.

>> We're definitely not alone. Absolutely. The data points empirically that we're not alone. Yeah. >> You've said that we have the United States has spacecraft, intact craft.

>> We do. Do we have bodies? Do we have species? >> Well, naturally, um when you recover something that's either landed or crashed, um sometimes you encounter, um dead pilots. And believe it or not, as f as fantastical as that sounds, it's true. Have you seen spacecraft? >> I've seen some interesting photos and I've read some very interesting reports. But he says the specific documents and photos that would prove his claims are still classified and he cannot disclose them here.

>> Let's deal with the issue of your credibility. >> Mhm. >> Why should we believe you? You're just somebody coming out of nowhere making claims that we really ultimately can't prove. >> Yeah. Well, we we provided the the proof internally to the inspector general and the Hill staff.

We went into all the details. I mean, I have the credentials. Uh, I was an intelligence officer on the UAP task force. >> But let's face it, allegations of aliens and their spacecraft are hard to accept, even coming from a respected insider. Even if you call them NHI and UAP, how could such NHI travel to Earth in the first place and go undetected by the general public? Grush says the craft may not be traveling through space as we understand it.

>> It is a wellestablished uh fact at least mathematically and based on empirical observation and analysis that there most likely are physical additional spatial dimensions. And you can imagine uh in four and 5D space where what we experience as linear time ends up being a physical dimension in higher dimensional space where if you were living there you could translate across what we perceive as a linear flow. So there is a uh possibility that and this is a theory here. I'm not saying this is 100% the case, but uh it could be that this is not necessarily extraterrestrial and it's actually coming from a higher dimensional physical space that might be colllocated um you know right here. >> What can you tell me about these craft these technologies? Why do you know it's exotic? uh based on uh the very specific properties that I was briefed on, you know, isotopic ratios that would have to be engineered for it to be um at those levels, but also just extremely uh uh strange heavy atomic metal, you know, high up in the periodic table um arrangements that um we don't understand, you know, what the emergent properties are, but there's just a very strange mix of um elements.

>> So, you're absolutely sure that the materials that these craft are made of are clearly not of this earth? >> Yeah, they're sophisticatedly engineered um certainly not by humans. >> And while Grush says the US has gleaned some insight from these materials for military use, so much more could be done if academia and the private sector had access. It's totally nuts that uh humanity as a whole, especially, you know, the US citizenry at a whole, they're not even benefiting um from broad research on this to solve, you know, propulsion, energy issues, um novel material science that improve people's quality of life. It's just totally nuts uh how it's been protected and uh inhibits progress. If you're right, if you're telling us the truth, everyone, the entire American public has been lied to for decades.

>> Yeah, there's a sophisticated uh disinformation campaign targeting the US populace, which is extremely unethical and immoral. >> Coming up, how long has this been going on? >> A lot of the things I was briefed on were very shocking. So, let's start from the very beginning. >> Mhm. >> You say it's a 90year cover up.

>> Just about. Yeah. >> 90 years. >> 1933 was the first recovery in Europe in uh Magenta, Italy. They recovered a a partially intact vehicle.

It's long been known that the regime of dictator Benito Mussolini documented numerous UAP during this time. This internal memo from the Italian secret services includes crude drawings of the UAPs. >> It's true. It's real. >> Yeah, that actually happened.

Italian government moved it to a secure air base in Italy for the the rest of kind of the fascist regime until 1944 1945 and you know the Pope Pius the 12th back channelneled that. >> So the Vatican was involved. >> Yeah. Told the Americans what the Italians had and and we ended up scooping it. >> So let me be very clear about this.

You're saying that the Catholic Church, the Vatican, they know about the existence of non-human intelligence on this planet. >> Certainly. Grush says shortly after the dawn of the atomic age, another major crash recovery took place. You've probably heard of it. What can you tell me about the Roswell craft? Fortunately, th those details uh were not approved for me to talk about right now.

>> This much we know. In 1947, an object crashed in the New Mexico desert near the town of Roswell. The Air Force recovered material described as metallic and rubbery, though the government changed its story as to what it was, calling it a flying disc at first, then a weather or spy balloon. It just reads to me that the US Air Force had changed its story. >> Yeah.

And they added additional elements over time and and um tried to conflate additional programs to explain some of the events. >> Why are these things crashing? >> Yeah. you know, some some are landed, some are crashed. And I think that's an interesting discussion that's come up. You know, as advanced as, you know, we are, you know, as humans, right? You know, planes crash, cars crash.

Just because you're some uh advanced sentience that has advanced technology doesn't mean um some small percentage of your I'll use the Air Force term like sorties um you know, meet an unfortunate operational conclusion as we might want to say. Most people would tell you the Roswell incident has been thoroughly debunked. In fact, the Air Force published this report in 1994 to put the issue to rest once and for all. Grush has read it. >> That analysis they did was a total hack job.

even um anybody with analytical skills, if you read it, you can you can deduce that they're conflating multiple um situations with crash test dummies and and then mogul balloons and they're just saying that the town's folk who personally witnessed it were totally um imagining things. They concocted that whole report uh just to disinform. So the reason for the secrecy exactly is what >> um feudalistic dominance who can have um both asymmetric asymmetric technology for it seems like just fuel in the war machine. >> Grush says that through the 50s and 60s encounters with the NHI continued as did the cover up. One incident in 1967, about which multiple Air Force veterans have gone public, involved UAPs tampering with the nuclear missiles at Malmstrom Air Base in Montana.

They saw a craft appearing to be intelligently controlled hovered over a nuclear weapons silo and shut down 10 nuclear ICBM missiles. Mhm. >> It certainly looks like um they want to understand uh how far we've advanced in our nuclear fizzle kind of technologies at the very least. I mean, it looks like preparatory probing activity and might be innocent kind of scientific gathering could be ISR probing. >> Meanwhile, Grush says the crash retrieval program continued.

And while he won't reveal where the downed craft are stored, he does say that the people working with the technology have been putting themselves at risk. >> You know, a lot of them, you know, were um injured looking at some of this stuff. You can imagine the nuclear, radiological, and biological risk um to looking at an unknown unknown. And a lot of them have literally suffered physically because of their service. But as we know, anyone who's come forward claiming nonhuman intelligence is behind these incidents has been dismissed as delusional or deliberately deceitful.

If you're right, if you're telling us the truth, everyone, the entire American public has been lied to for decades. >> Yeah, there's a sophisticated uh disinformation campaign targeting the US populace, which is extremely unethical and immoral. Coming up west, >> new evidence and perhaps new attitudes in a new age of UAPs. >> The American people need and deserve to know more. >> Has the US government changed its tune.

These are the videos that started it all. footage captured by naval aviators on militarygrade cameras that defied all prosaic explanation. Dave Grush has investigated this one shot in 2015 off the east coast by fighter pilots from the USS Theodore Roosevelt. There's an industry of debunkers, aren't there, on the web who say, "Oh, they've got this all wrong. It's a jet exhaust at a distance and the aircraft's turning." >> Give me an answer on that.

Uh, I had some optical engineering experts look at that and the Rathon AT Fleer system based on the pixel saturation and apparent size. It's certainly something that's not a jet. It might be some kind of natural phenomenon that's quite strange, but it's not as simple as a jet. He has even stronger opinions about this UAP, now known to history as the tic tac, shot in 2004 in the Pacific by aviators off the USS Nimmits. And the Tic Tac >> truly anomalous, absolutely uh technical vehicle, physical, and that's absolutely uh something that we didn't make.

>> Not of this world, >> most likely. Yeah. The videos were leaked in 2017, then officially released by the Pentagon in 2020. At the time, it seemed the Pentagon may have finally abandoned its obsession with secrecy and decided to do what other countries have been doing for decades, establish a properly funded, publicly accountable team to investigate reports of UAP. Dave Grush was part of that team.

This is a hunt mission for what might somebody be doing in our backyard that we don't know about. >> The task force set about investigating these incidents, including more recent events like the odd encounters that took place during naval exercises in 2019 off the coast of San Diego. This video shot on the USS Omaha and later leaked to documentarian Jeremy Corbel has received particular attention. It either zooms off so fast you can't see it or it sinks into the ocean, but it seems to drop. What do you know about it? >> It was truly anomalous.

>> But Grush says the promised new age of government transparency is a fallacy. For starters, he says the videos that have been released are just the tip of the iceberg. There are many videos that are totally fair to release through a declassification process. And I find it um very concerning from a transparency perspective that all that the department has declassified were those three famous videos. There are more concerning videos that left me with a lot of questions.

Yeah. >> He says there are credible witnesses who could testify to Congress about spacecraft, big spacecraft. A lot of them were very large. Very large. Yeah.

Like a football field kind of size. And I remember interviewing these personnel. I'm like, either these people are lying to me, they're having a psychotic break, or this is some crazy but true stuff that's happening. And I have no good explanation that's prosaic at all for this because this is not explainable by, you know, swamp gas, uh, St. Elmo's fireball, lightning, etc., etc.

I mean, this is like tangible technical craft they're seeing um up close and personal in some cases when I interview people. >> And at the center of it all, the crash retrieval program the government has never publicly acknowledged. A program Gush says that's included at least one private aerospace company that is storing alien craft. Is that true? >> That is how a lot of these relationships are. Um while I I don't want to name the specific companies and government elements but uh overall you know the government has been the custodian of a lot of this right and they'll they'll hand receipt it out to clear defense contractor to do some analysis which I find highly unethical.

you have a basically a sole source arrangement and you allow certain um private corporate elements uh to look at this develop a potential insight and then sell it back to the government for profit and I think that's totally unethical. >> The problem you've got is there have been categorical denials >> from high level officials in the US government even presidents >> that what you're saying is true. Unfortunately, some elected officials were not brought in. >> Only a few weeks ago, 19th of April, the head of the Pentagon's UAP investigations program, Dr. Sean Kirkpatre >> told Congress Arrow, that's the Pentagon's UFO investigation body, has found no credible evidence thus far of extraterrestrial activity, off-world technology, or objects that defy the known laws of physics.

While a large number of cases in our holdings remain technically unresolved, this is primarily due to a lack of data associated with those cases. >> Was that a lie? >> Well, I know Dr. Sean Kapatrick. I've known him for about eight years and you know, I expressed some concerns to Dr. Kapatrick about a year ago and told him what I was starting to uncover and he didn't follow up with me and he has my phone number.

He could have called me. I hope he ultimately does the right thing. he should be able to make the same um investigative discoveries I did. It it it's totally crazy if he doesn't. >> So, the implication here is that the head of the very body >> Mhm.

>> that Congress has ordered to tell the American public the truth about UAPs is possibly misleading the American public. Do you think the American public is being lied to? Well, they've been lied to over the years, and um I'm hoping that the lies stop. >> Coming up, it gets even scarier. The UFO whistleblower says the NHIS aren't all friendly. Have human beings been hurt or killed by a non-human intelligence.

>> And guess who they might be working with? >> We're in a competition with their adversaries to understand this. And it's a it's a multi-deade cold war that uh has been under our nose for so long. >> The common interpretation from some commentators is that there is a non-human species and it's incredibly benevolently well disposed to the human race. >> Yeah. And and I think that is a the logical fallacy there is because they're advanced, they're kind.

We'll never really understand um full intent in that because we're we're not them, whatever them is or are. Uh but I think what appears to be malevolent activity has has happened based on not only uh nuclear sight probing activities, um witness testimony. I think at least if we look at it through a humanistic lens, um it does appear negative, at least uh to us. I've been told that there have been attempts to bring down craft that we've acted offensively against non-human craft. >> There have been instances and there are uh certain techniques.

>> Have human beings been hurt or killed by a non-human intelligence? While I can't get into the specifics because that would reveal uh certain US classified uh operations, uh I was briefed by a few individuals on the program that there were um malevolent events like that. >> Now I'm scared. People have just heard you say, nonhumans may well have murdered human beings. >> That seems to be the case at one point. Yeah.

>> And there's more. Grush says the United States is not the only country that's encountered NHI and their technology. He says our geopolitical rivals have their own crash retrieval programs which they are also secretly exploiting for military purposes. We're in a competition with their adversaries to understand this and it's a it's a multi-deade cold war that uh has been under our nose for so long and you know there is no good way to level the playing field and hold other nation states accountable if they're doing unethical or illicit uh activity as it relates to this subject. And I think the obtuse secrecy is actually putting us in a very dangerous position where uh a country might make a breakthrough that say we um it's an adversary of ours and it is so destabilizing.

>> You say there's been a cold war behind the scenes with Russia and China. >> There has been a cold war against our with our with our peer adversaries. Yeah. Why hasn't Russia or China come out and spoken publicly about this? >> I think they're in a similar, you know, pickle as us where it's um they understand maybe the some of the socioeconomic destabilization factors in their own society. >> But if this non-human intelligence is so advanced and at least some of them are malevolent, why haven't they destroyed us already? Perhaps some fragile yet combustible day tant has been reached.

Grush has written an internal document about his discoveries that refers to agreements that risk putting our future in jeopardy. And it's quite clear that you're talking about agreements between America and non-human intelligences. Have we made agreements with non-human intelligences? >> That's the kind of information I really hope national leadership is able to get to the bottom of. I need to pin you down on this. Are there agreements between non-human intelligences and the American government? >> I think that's a question that I would like to know all the details of as well.

>> We do know of at least one agreement among humans that's worth noting. This 1971 agreement between the US and the USSR on measures to reduce the risk of nuclear war. Whether or not you believe Dave Grush, this document proves the two superpowers were aware that UAP existed, whatever they were. If you look at article three of that treaty, it talks about unidentified objects near nuclear facilities or interfering with communications. And that is a treaty uh that has been used from what I understand uh to notify uh each other if there's a concerning event.

And that's a way of saying to the Russians, hey, don't shoot at us. It's not us. >> Yeah. I mean, that's certainly a concern because of the secrecy. It has there is an environment where um you could have almost like a false flag where true non-prosaic UAP um situation um could be uh const, you know, a provocation of something from a nation state.

We want to deescalate that. If this is true, if the stakes are so high, if the fate of the human race is at stake, perhaps it's no surprise to hear Grush say the US government will do anything to keep these secrets safe. Can I put it to you that crimes must have been committed? >> At the very least, I saw substantiative evidence that white collar crime was committed. >> Have people been killed to protect this secret? uh based on the people I talked to uh that was an ongoing uh concern. >> Yeah.

Unfortunately, I've heard some really unamerican things I don't want to repeat right now. >> So, you have a strong suspicion that people have been murdered to protect the >> over the years. Yeah. >> Coming up, a reality check. Is it possible that you're deluding yourself? >> It's time to put our whistleblowers credibility to the test.

Everybody watching this right now is looking at your face. They're going, "Is this guy for real?" Let's talk about what Dave Grush doesn't have. He doesn't have smoking gun documents or photos. He doesn't have official confirmation of his claims. He's just a guy talking on camera.

And a lot of his answers to our most pointed questions sound like this. Can you comment? >> Unfortunately, I cannot. >> So, who is this guy really? >> I don't want fame or fortune. I'm just here to provide public leadership on an issue that I uncovered and I thought it was totally outrageous. >> NewsNation has confirmed through multiple sources that Dave Grush is who he says he is, an Air Force veteran from Pittsburgh who worked in military intelligence and was part of the UAP task force.

Maybe he's just a confident, wellspoken ex-military intelligence officer who just happens to have lost his mind. Do you have any kind of mental illness? >> No. >> Have you ever had a psychosis, a delusion? >> Is there anything in your medical history that might be capable of being interpreted as a reason why you might be confabulating, making things up? >> I'm not a disgruntled employee. I resigned on my own accord because I thought altruistically it's more appropriate to show thought leadership on the outside on this now. Um because I, you know, hit an impass within the government to try to write this wrong.

>> So I've got to be blunt about this. You're not making this up. This is not a lie. >> No, absolutely not. >> Because everybody watching this right now is looking at your face.

>> They're going, "Is this guy for real?" >> I am for real. And I'm, you know, I'm sitting here at great personal risk and obvious professional risk by talking to you today. >> You've told us that we really are not alone. Even though you believe what you say is true, you haven't been fed disinformation. It's a common thing in intelligence for governments to mislead.

>> Yeah, I was very sensitive to that fact. Um, you know, was this some kind of ruse against me? uh am am I being used in any kind of way? Um and I took about four years being very methodical before I filed my my whistleblower complaint to be absolutely certain of these basic facts, you know. >> So, take me through the process of how you convinced yourself that this is real. >> Um well, based on the the credential people that came to me, some of these subjects provided me uh sensitive foreign intelligence to read, sensitive program documents and photographs to evaluate. um and then uh described in very specific detail um how all this worked and they were telling me the the exact extremely specific details um that all it all checked out.

Yeah. >> You know the thing I have trouble with it's the fact that my experience as a journalist is it's very hard for governments to keep secrets. Most things leak. >> Your government leaks like a civ. Mhm.

Why hasn't this leaked? >> Well, I've certainly been the recipient of a lot of US government secrets and I can tell you they've never seen the light of day. Um, that's for sure. And, uh, I guess ostensibly this has leaked like a civ for decades, but it was a very sophisticated disinformation campaign where, you know, they have allowed some of the truth to come out um through some of their their trade crafts. Uh, but they've disenfranchised people. They've stigmatized it.

that they made it like as this total like wacky thing to talk about. So, anybody who may come forward with that kind of information is looked like a, you know, total tinfoil hat guy because it's a perfect amalgamation of disinformation to um just make it look crazy. >> The best reason to believe Dave Grush may be this document. Remember that whistleblower complaint he filed? It would seem it hasn't fallen on deaf ears. So the inspector general of the intelligence services of the United States has the information you've got.

>> Yes. >> And more importantly, the inspector general made a determination about the credibility of your complaint. >> They found after interviewing myself in the subjects and other subjects that I'm not even uh cognizant on who they were, they found my complaint uh urgent and credible uh for the intelligence committees. >> The word credible is important. You appreciate.

Mhm. >> So, an official investigatory body of the United States government has determined that your allegations are credible. >> Correct. >> Coming up, if it is true, then what? What are we going to do if the biggest secret on the planet is now out in the open? And what are they going to do? >> How will the nonhuman intelligence react? This is one of the gravest constitutional crises for your country ever. >> Absolutely.

>> Give me some hope here. There are good people. >> There are very good people and I want that message to be crystal clear. Um let's not demonize holistically the US government. There's a whole army of people that want change.

I am one of tens, if not hundreds of individuals within the government on these programs that would like a change. >> What kind of change does David Grush want? As he said here tonight, he wants the NHI technology to be shared so the rest of the world can benefit from it. >> And I use nuclear weapons or nuclear physics as an example. It's an acknowledged program. We have nuclear weapons.

You don't get to know the designs. But nuclear physics holistically is unclassified. Academia studies it. And why would you suppress basic astrophysics, astrobiology, um other hard and soft sciences broadly? It's totally nuts. Grush has left the government.

He wasn't part of ARO during the most recent congressional hearings when still more UAP were revealed, including this one captured by a drone in the Middle East in 2022. >> There it goes. >> His whistleblower case will take months to conclude. In the meantime, he says he's starting a scientific foundation, and he's willing to speak to anyone in Washington who has the clearance and the desire to hear the classified information he could not share here. >> I make myself available to Secretary Austin, DNI Haynes, who was a recipient of my complaints.

I'm happy to further brief elected officials on the specific um ecosystem of secrecy down to the fine details. whoever they are. How will the non-human intelligence react to the revelation that human beings now know they're here? >> Yeah. I mean, obviously, the non-human intelligences have been around for a while, at least multiple decades in modern history, and they've allowed ourselves to annihilate ourselves, genocide, war, famine, etc. So, at the very least, I think they're kind of neutral on what humans decide to do with their free will.

And as for how we, the human race, will react to his story here, Grush evinces that quintessentially human characteristic, optimism. >> I don't have this utopian ideology that this is going to, you know, solve world problems, stop war entirely. But all I want is a moment of pause and and to see if the subject unites us as we've obviously become more divided over the last couple decades. Because if anything else, what you're revealing may mean we all start thinking of ourselves not as American, Australian, Russian, Chinese, but as human >> human family. I think that's uh totally the right term.

Yeah, >> I can imagine all of you out there are asking the same question I ask myself that despite his credentials, can Mr. Rush be believed. The allegations presented by Mr. Grush tonight, if true, are the answer to the biggest question in human history. Are we alone? I'm Ross Kulart.

Thank you very much for watching and good night. New images from the James Webb telescope may be changing everything, giving scientists a glimpse at what our universe looked like more than 13 billion years ago, and it's not what they expected. In fact, the lead scientist of the study in Nature says he nearly spat out his coffee, saying, quote, "We just discovered the impossible." What he's referring to are six massive galaxies dating back 13 billion years. They were only expecting to find, in their words, tiny young baby galaxies. Not ones like this.

Not ones just as old as our own. Between the new James Webb discoveries and unidentified objects being shot out of the sky this month, questions have certainly been swirling about what is above us. And when it comes to questions on science and the universe, you can't ask anyone better than astrophysicist Neil Degrasse Tyson. He has a new book called Starry Messenger, which challenges readers to examine life's most discussed topics through a cosmic and scientific lens. We welcome now my guest, Dr.

Neil Degrasse Tyson. Thank you so much for joining us on NewsNation. >> Thanks for having me. That was a great introduction. We don't need to do the interview.

You get We'll wrap. No, no, no. But I want to hear what you have to say about this. Let's talk about the discovery from the James Webb Space Telescope because the lead scientist says that this upends what was considered settled science. In just two or three sentences, can you help us understand what is the significance here? >> Well, first of all, our best understanding of the beginning moments of the universe, you have this sort of cauldron of matter and energy that isn't quite in a situation yet to form stars or galaxies or any sort of tangible objects we know and love later.

And so we there's this period of time we identify as the dark ages where yeah, there was matter and energy, but nothing shining yet. And the matter still had to coalesce and organize into these cities we call galaxies, cities of stars. So here you have this gap and now the James web space telescope is identifying objects in the dark ages that by best measurements we have are large fully developed galaxies. So who ordered that? All right. So we we're justifiably befuddled by it.

And but there's still other data that can still come in from these galaxies that will derive from their spectra. And when you get a spectrum of a galaxy, it's like the fingerprint of all the chemistry that's going on in there and also well chemical elements that are going on in there as well as where we would put it in the expansion model of the universe. Cuz maybe they're just a weird other kind of object and not the kind of object we think it should be. Because if it's a new kind of object, that's also a discovery. And so and and by the way, the James Webb Space Telescope was conceived and designed to help us understand the origin of galaxies.

So we shouldn't be surprised that it's forcing us to scratch our head. >> Okay. Well, and from galaxies in the universe to our skies and spy balloons, you know, of course, we're tracking the US recently shooting down that alleged Chinese spy balloon off the Carolina coast and then shooting down three more objects over the next week. So, at first, the Pentagon was really slow to confirm these objects uh were actually not UFA, unidentified aerial phenomenon, and speculation was swirling all over the place. What do you think the likelihood is that any of these objects were extraterrestrial in nature? Yeah, I think if your first if your first thought is, I don't know what it is, so it's probably alien.

Uh, okay. you know, that makes good storytelling and good news headlines, but chances are it's not okay because it seems to me if we were if we were succumbing to an alien invasion, someone would catch that on a highresolution smartphone that has video and and and and still photos. And so there's 6 billion smartphones in the world. And I we shouldn't have to rely on just what the Navy happens to see in the atmosphere in monochromatic, you know, fuzzy video. We have high quality video all around the world.

So, it would be odd to me if aliens were only putting their probes in front of Navy pilots. >> Okay. >> I I appreciate that. And we'd love to get your take as well on the object seen over Mosul just released. Um there's a clip.

It's known as the Mosul orb now. Allegedly taken from a US spy plane over Mosul back in 2016. That footage released from uh UFO expert Jeremy Corbel. So the Department of Defense refusing to comment on this object. What is your take here? >> Yeah, I I don't know what it is.

Okay. I have no idea. I mean, it's that's the whole point of the U in UFO or the UAP, which was just the rebranding by the government of UFOs, the unidentified aerial phenomenon. That's like exactly UFO, right? They're equal things. So, no, I don't know what it is.

So, let's find out. By the way, we have a we have a military >> that is tasked protecting us from stuff that could harm us. Yes, they should check it all out. And if a little green man steps out, bring it into the town square and then we're we're good to go on alien visitation. >> I mean, I don't know.

I don't know if we're good to go at that point. I think that's the beginning of a whole another can of worms. But but let's talk about UAPs quickly. Um, the US government receiving more than 350 reports of these unidentified aerial phenomenon, the UAPs, less than in less than two years. Uh, that's according to a report by the director of national intelligence.

And about half of the 350, um, they're quote unidentified. Do you think it's likely we've been visited by extraterrestrials or will be in the near future? >> Yeah. No, I I I I just this this being put forth as evidence for extraterrestrials is instead to to by my read evidence of things that we don't know, right? The universe brims with mysteries. I don't have any problems staring at something and not knowing what it is, but resisting the urge to say aliens are somehow coming from space. Uh I need better evidence if you're going to make an extraordinary claim such as that.

In fact, I need extraordinary evidence, not simply an object in the sky you can't identify. And what would extraordinary evidence be? Like I said, give me high-res video, the alien walking out of the the the flying saucer, however they got here. And by the like I said, cat videos go viral instantly. You know, if someone had a video of aliens coming out of an alien spacecraft, that would be known worldwide. You can't hide that.

that the government can't keep that a secret. All right? So, and plus the government is not good at keeping secrets. Plus, the government is not as competent as people think they are about what it is they think they're hiding. The government can't control the sky. They can't control what you take pictures of.

So, this that's the source of my skepticism. But I don't want to stop people from attempting to find out what these are. Go right ahead. >> Do you, Neil Degrasse Tyson, think that we are alone in the universe? Or do you believe there's other intelligent life out there? Anyone who studied the problem would totally be all in on there being other life in the universe for sure and intelligent life. That's kind of hubristic of us to be the measure of intelligence because there could be an alien out there who does not count us among the ranks of intelligent species in the universe.

So, so it's audacious of us to say let's find other intelligent species just like us. Before we know, they have visited us and went back to their home planet and said there's no sign of intelligent life on Earth. >> I mean, 100% Neil and this this keeps me up at night. I mean, if something else were to discover us, what are what are the chances they'll think we're anything better than even amoeba or or something like that? >> Yeah, that's this is >> I mean, does it end well on my point? >> Can I can I ask one species? >> Yeah, >> it won't end well. >> Okay.

And and by the way, the evil alien trope, I think it's not because we have we suspect aliens will be evil. It's because we know we're evil to each other >> when a high technology encounters a low technology. I think they're mirrors to our own behavior of how we have we knowingly treated ourselves in the history of exploration and discovery. So yeah, aliens are metaphor for our own evil as far as I can tell. >> Wow.

Um, Neil, what keeps you up at night? >> Wondering whether we are smart enough to answer the very questions we have posed about our place in the universe or worse yet, are we smart enough to even know what question to ask >> that keeps me awake at night. >> Great answers. Um, and this is a fabulous book. Um, you make some pretty remarkable predictions for the year 2050. Self-driving cars replacing all current vehicles.

Uh, one stood out to me. You say humans will be able to regenerate limbs. We certainly encourage our viewers to check out Starry Messenger. Um, and really appreciate your time, Neil Degrasse Tyson. It's been it's been a pleasure.

Thank you. >> Thank you for having me. Thank you. >> How long has this been your beat? >> Three years. >> You just came down here as a filmmaker to do it.

>> I was an anchor, news anchor for 13 years. I just wanted to cover things that weren't being covered. It's a huge issue. >> I can't believe the quantity of money that's going into trying to stem the tide here. >> The biggest issue is not the groups of families that are coming over seeking asylum.

It's the people we don't know. Ross, >> they're keeping an eye on us. >> They don't have the rules we have. They're the cartel. You can see Border Patrol sitting there.

They will send people down to distract Border Patrol and then they might send drugs over or something nefarious. >> How quickly can they get out of the water? >> It's within a matter of seconds. You're kidding. >> I've sat up there with Border Patrol and watched them run. As soon as they clear the wall, they run off into these kind of more urban areas and poof.

And that's the same with the drones and the drugs. [Music] Good day and welcome to Reality Check. I'm your host, Ross Coltart. As everybody watching this show would know, we are taking an extremely skeptical view of the official explanations for the so-called drone incursions across much of the United States in the past few months. Officially, the White House position is that these drones were somehow authorized research drones or for other purposes in some way authorized by the Federal Aviation Administration.

the FAA. That's the official statement from the White House press spokeswoman. But that contradicts, of course, what the Federal Aviation Administration has given under oath to the Congress that it knew nothing about these drones. And as we're seeing on 60 Minutes, 60 Minutes has also heard from the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee saying that there's still no firm explanation for what these drones are. So, one of the questions we asked ourselves last year when we were doing these investigations into these drones was, is it possible that these drones are being sent across the border by organized crime cartels? Are they being used for illicit purposes by organized crime gangs smuggling drugs and perhaps even people across the border? Could that explain these incursions? The best person to speak to on this is Alli Bradley, who's an extraordinary correspondent, probably America's preeeminent reporter on America's southern border.

Alli's soon to start her own program called Bradley on the Border. And I can promise you, knowing how good a journalist she is, it's going to be good fun. But here's my interview with Alli Bradley where we went to the wall. Yes, the great great big wall. And we asked the question, could these drone incursions be explained away as organized crime infiltration with drones by the cartels? Here's Ally.

>> Ally, at long last, lovely to meet you. >> It's great to meet you. >> Legend precedes you. >> Oh, and yours as well. It's good to meet out here in my uh stomping ground, sir.

>> So, this is the wall. >> This is the wall. This was actually built under the Obama administration. >> Oh, it's not the big big wall. >> It's not the big huge wall.

That one is down there a little bit further. That's a little bit taller. We're looking at about 17 to 18 foot right here. You can see the razor wire. Multiple layers of kind of enforcement there.

But down there, you have what is considered the Trump wall. It's about 30 ft. >> So for our audience, that's Mexico. >> That is Mexico right there. And that's an area regularly exploited by the criminal cartels.

When we come out here, we see scouts out there sitting up there with binoculars watching border patrol kind of literally with the high ground. >> So, they're watching to see when border patrols around and looking to jump across at the first. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. And you can see there's a border patrol vehicle right here and then there's another one up on the ridge up there.

So, they're watching the cartel movement while the cartel is watching them. So, as soon as what they do is task saturation. So, they might send one individual down. You can see trash all along this mountain side when you look really closely because those are foot paths down from that ridge up there. So, they're going to walk down here with the guide of the cartel.

They use phones and walkie-talkies and guide them every step of the way. And what they'll do is they'll send one person over here. That person will clear this wall and be a distraction to border patrol. Then they'll send other people down here while Border Patrol's busy. >> So, what I notice on the US side is there's cameras everywhere.

I mean, up over here, for example, on that hill there, there's clearly really high quality video cameras and presumably radar watching to see who's coming, >> right? But the problem is you have to have the resources to respond to what's coming. And that's what we've been up against for the last 3 years is you don't have the manpower to respond to the criminal activity. And so those individuals, a lot of times you call them gotaways. They'll clear this wall and they'll fade off. I mean, you can see all the places that they can run and hide and they disappear like that.

and Border Patrol is constantly kind of in a reactionary standpoint. >> So, this brings us to what we're here to talk about. Obviously, there's a huge swave of military training areas right here across the bottom of Arizona, right next to the border. >> Mhm. >> And the pilots, people there have been seeing strange objects, unexplained anomalous objects, doing weird things.

And what we're here for is to try and investigate, could it possibly be drone activity from the cartels? because tell me a little bit about that. How much are the drones being used by the cartels to bring stuff over the border and I presume also to monitor border protection? >> Yeah, you're exactly right. So, what they'll do and and they used to primarily focus on sending over nefarious things like drugs using the drones to physically drop those items into the United States. Somebody, it might be someone's backyard, it might be a restaurant's garbage can. They run over, they grab it, and off to the races that that individual goes that collects the item, right? And then the drone goes back.

Well, now we're seeing it more and more used to be kind of scouting tools to watch Border Patrol to be the eyes in the sky, if you will, so that they can send individuals over. Now, if those individuals are moving drugs or, you know, illicit materials, you know, that's a different element there. But when it comes to the drones, they are still moving drugs according to my high level sources within border patrol and they are using them to surveil border patrol as well. >> How many drones are we talking about? It is a big activity by the cartel. >> So in this area alone, I actually talked with a recently retired chief of this area who was saying that they were seeing hundreds of drones a day.

Hundreds. He said so many that they couldn't even keep track of them that they were seeing thousands a week. And now what he's saying to me is that the cartel used to use Chinese drones. Very normal. That's what you can buy at the store, a DJI drone or a Hawkeye drone, right? Those are out there.

But they switched over, he says, to using French and Russian agricultural drones. >> Bigger drones. >> Bigger drones. He says they can move 5 to 10 kilos of drugs across the border. And the biggest issue there is they're the technology that they're using.

We're not able to intercept like we were with the Chinese drones. They're working right now to kind of expand not only their physical footprint, but what they're able to do. And that's kind of at a standstill right now when it comes to the legalities of that. >> So obviously the question I'm here to ask is, is the anomalous activity that's being seen in the military training ranges and indeed over Tucson? Can it be explained by these drones that are being seen here being brought in by the cartel? Well, the source that I talked to who is boots on the ground when this was happening says that they actually got video of an anomaly, something that they couldn't explain back in 2021. >> Hasn't been publicly revealed yet.

>> Not that we know of. I have not seen any indication that this is something that the media is aware of, that anybody is aware of, but the military is because they apparently apprehended, not apprehended, but saw this kind of anomaly on video and they couldn't determine what it was. They said it didn't look like the hundreds of drone incursions that they're seeing every day. Again, they're not it's not a one-off. They're not seeing one drone here and there.

Hundreds a day. So, they know what these look like. They know what they're doing. >> So, they can tell the difference between a commercial or even a military drone and what you're talking about that he's described, which is something anomalous, >> unexplainable. They don't know.

And because it was unexplainable, the military got interested. So, Fort Wuka, the military base nearby in Sierra Vista, came and actually uh chatted with them, got the video of this kind of anomaly, and to my knowledge, they still haven't published what it was. They still haven't determined what it was, and this is years later. Now, if they have, they're not sharing it openly with the media. >> So, just take me through that.

When was this incident? >> So, this source says it was around 2021 when this happened. um when they saw this kind of anomaly. Again, in the midst of hundreds of drone incursions a day, they're seeing something that they can't can't describe. There's no indication of what this is. He said it was darting really fast and it would go off screen and come back.

>> Let me just pin you down there. When you when you say darting really fast, is he suggesting that it's not moving like a drone would move? >> No, that's what he was saying. He said that there was no indic Well, they I think they wanted to believe it was a drone at first, right? You want to be able to explain what you're seeing. >> You try and put a pattern to what >> but they just couldn't. Again, seeing hundreds of these things a day and then seeing something that's darting on and off screen and that is moving quicker than what the drones are that they've seen.

That would raise those concerns and those questions because they don't know what it is. And and you have Border Patrol sitting here constantly watching the skies, watching things, being surveiled. What was this item? Something that no one's seen before. >> This must be the most surveiled area on the planet. really when you look at the the camera gear over here.

I mean >> I mean I mean right there there's three clusters of towers and there's one I mean there's there's eight towers within our eyes sight in just a stone throw. Right. >> So they've got radar attached to them as well. >> Yeah. >> So these systems that he's describing presumably they picked it up on radar first >> and we're trying to engage the object.

>> Yeah. >> And that's what they can do, right? They can get in and they can engage with it and they can actually disable it. They can land that item where it is or they can send it back south. And do you know were they using that electromagnetic pulse weaponry to try and bring it down? >> Um I don't know if they attempted to or not. Um I'll try to find out, but I don't know if they attempted to bring it down.

Um it sounds like even if they did, they wouldn't have had any luck because it doesn't sound like it was something that was within their capabilities. >> So whatever it was, it got away. >> It got away. Um I asked them, did they have it in their possession? Did they have the physical apparatus of whatever this thing was? Did they shoot it down? Did they dismantle it? No, they never got their hands on it. They just have video evidence that it was something they couldn't explain.

>> So, what do you think, Alli? Do you think that what's happening here with the cartels could explain the anomalous activity that they're seeing in the military training ranges? >> Why would the cartels drones be going anywhere near military training ranges? >> You know, the cartel wants intel on the United States. That's their MMO. That is their number one priority is to always be one step ahead of us. So, what better place to do that than to infiltrate our military installations in some capacity to be around those vicinities and to be able to gather intel. We know these drones are capable of doing a lot right >> now.

This anomalous item. Why was that down here? Why was that in this area? >> Sure. It's really interesting, isn't it? Because all over America, there are objects that are being described as drones by military officials. >> The Pentagon, the investigators from the Pentagon's UFO investigation office. They use the word drones, but this anomalous example that you're talking about, >> they can't say it's a drone, can they? >> No.

They want they would like to, like I said, I think in the beginning, you know, oh, that's what this is because you want to explain it, but then they couldn't. And that's why the military came in to Do you think do do you think by definition something unknown like that is a national security public safety issue? >> I I feel like that's a rhetorical question, my friend. I feel like having things in our airspace, especially nearby um any kind of military installation is something that would cause concern for for our national security. When you have um something that's unexplainable in your airspace and the military doesn't even know what it was. So that would would likely mean it's not a civilian around here, you know, flying something around.

It it's coming from somewhere else. And so, how could that not be a national security threat, especially if we don't know what it was? >> It is quite sad. I mean, you look along here and you just think of the the money that's been poured into the resourcing this attempt to block people coming over the border. >> Mhm. Well, >> the cartel is always one step ahead.

>> One step ahead. And you know how funding works with the United States. We have to have data statistics. Is it an issue for border protection that they're not getting the money they need to do the job properly? >> Um, I don't know if it's so much that they're not getting the money, but they certainly don't have the manpower and and they're not really getting that restaffed. Yeah.

>> You know, we have 8 to 10,000 agents that are going to be retiring that were hired after 911. Do >> you know, it's a funny thought. So, from what you're telling me, there's probably a spotter from the cartel right there. >> Oh, absolutely. I wish we could see it that when when we're you down here a lot of times the bushes aren't as um grown in, right? A lot of times you just see kind of sticks, but we always see individuals up there.

They will be hunkered down all day watching us watch them. And again, the US is always in reactionary standpoint when it comes to funding, when it comes to anything. They have to have a reason to say, "We're going to put a bunch of money towards this and we're going to we're going to stop this from happening." Um but that's just this is what they're dealing with right now. As you can see, there's razor wire cut down all over the place. >> So, that's where somebody's come over the over the wall.

>> Absolutely. So, they're breaching this wall. >> That wall. >> They do. I've seen them actually climb the wall multiple times.

And And unfortunately, wherever they are on the other side of Mexico, there's usually some kind of um established residence or business or something like that. So, it's pretty easy for them to hide out on the other side until it's go time, until it's time to cross over. and the cartels up there watching and we'll signal when that is. And they're using those those drones as well. And basically these it doesn't even look like there are any breaks, right? But when you get closer, you can see all this wire is kind of removed and they just when they reach over, they can clip it down or they can just clip it through these different ballards right here.

>> So they're sending the cartels are sending people over all the time. >> All the time. And and what and a lot of times they don't get caught, right? >> They're the invaders. They're they're the godaways. They're the ones that want to remain undetected >> and at the same time they're using drone technology to spy on the US.

>> Absolutely. I mean, why wouldn't you when they have the capabilities to do that? Why wouldn't you? Sure. >> And so, you know, like I said, they're up there at the high ground, but then they're also one step ahead of us because they're flying drones over as into US airspace because we we call those incursions. They're not incursions if you don't cross sure >> the barrier, right? So that's happening what my source says hundreds of times a day. >> That's amazing.

>> I mean that's you can't even wrap your head around that. And all they have to do is kind of lay down. >> So you could have somebody skullking around behind that little garage there. >> Oh absolutely. >> They could run out with a rope and be over in 30 seconds.

>> Absolutely. And and the cartel's orchestrating all of that. They're watching us too. The cartel is right now. >> They've got our number, my friend.

So they know where we are. Uh they're watching Border Patrol. So the Border Patrol truck is gone now. Yeah. >> Went somewhere else.

So this would be an opportunity if the cartel wanted to do something. There's nobody here, but we're here. So we're acting as a deterrent for DHS right now. But as you can see, so there's multiple layers of this, but it makes to scale this wall and get down here. >> So what do they do? To throw a grappling hook up or, >> you know, I've seen them just use their hands and feet.

>> You're kidding. >> To climb. Um, and in other areas they do have ropes and ladders, and the ladders are basically made out of that same material. They just have little hooks on the top and they hook them on. Wow.

climb up and then they pull them down and run off. And so it's pretty pretty standard operating. But you can see this is this is interesting here because you can see this fencing was obviously put there and soldered on, right? And there's a big gap right here. >> Oh, so they're taking it off. >> So it's interesting.

Yeah. And you can you can see you could put your hands behind it and just pull yourself out. Wow. >> Yeah. So it's it's definitely something that they're exploiting and utilizing every day.

And that's why Border Patrol sits here is this is a volatile area that's constantly utilized by the cartel to send people and things across. >> Well, you can see why because once you're here, >> it's goodbye open season. >> I mean, where do you where do you go? And and there's semi-truckss everywhere down here. There's, you know, containers they can hide in there. There's all kinds of things.

But look at this. So, you were talking about don't they get ripped to shreds? You can see clothing >> from that one. So, you know, indications that they use this area. Up there you can see some clothing and down here you can see some as well. So when we talk about the drone the anomaly right in 2021 you know more about the things in the sky than I do.

I'm sure in 2021 drones were not at the capacity that we're seeing them now. So that brings up something to me that you know we were seeing hundreds of drone incursions and that they weren't as accessible to the human public right to the to citizens and they were very expensive. Not every now every you know every John Harry Adam they have a drone. >> Sure. >> So now you're like well it could have been a civilian back in 20121.

What was it? >> Absolutely. >> Who was it? >> Very good question. >> You know because not as many people had the capabilities or the financial means to fly a drone. >> How many of these drones are being seen at night? Like they're obviously bringing them over when they can be least detected. Do you have any idea how often at night versus day? >> I'm not sure.

But I do know that according to some of my sources in the Del Rio sector, which is in Texas, they also see drone incursions and they believe that they weren't able to um use thermal technology uh kind of early on. Now they do believe that the cartel is using thermal technology with these drones because >> and they and what they will do is they can see the agents on the ground in the dark with their thermal imagery. So, I have a source that was literally on the ground and it was pitch black and a drone flew over and stopped on top of him. >> So, if you couldn't see at night with thermal imagery, then how did you know that that guy was there? >> So, they're using thermal technology to be able to detect border patrol at night. So, they are using them at night as well.

Look, >> there's probably so much money in it. They've probably got better gear than we have. >> They're a$ 13 billion a year industry, my friend. >> 13 billion. >> 13 billion.

They were making 32 million a week at the peak when they were sending individuals over into the Del Rio sector back in December. It was 32 million a week according to the chief of border patrol and also to uh the GOP lawmakers. >> So to summarize where we're at, yes, there's a hell of a lot of drones here, but it doesn't explain the anomalous objects we're possibly talking about here. >> It doesn't because they know what the drones are. They know what drones are out there.

When they pivot to a French or Russian drone, they know that. >> Sure. So, so what are these other items? What was that other item in 2021? I don't understand it. You know, I don't know what they're seeing. And it it kind of I don't know if itchy is the right term, but it makes me a little itchy to know that there are things that we can't explain >> that there are things that we can't describe that people have clearly seen.

And people that have the credentials and have had the have backed that information come hell or high water. I mean, they're willing to put their their credibility, their life, everything on the line to say, "That's what I saw." And so, how can you how can you definitively say that's not what you saw because no one else can explain it either? >> It makes me wonder whether it's just purely and simply because we've got all this technology along here on the border, which has the capacity to pick up these objects, whether they've been here all the time. >> You know, that's a good question because the techn was it the chicken or the egg? Right. Absolutely. >> And we we question that all the time.

You don't know what you don't see. And so, how much more is happening that we don't see that we don't have a camera pointed at in this area? What I'm told here is that they only have about a mile radius of a footprint that they can actually intercept these drones and actually detect these drones. A mile. So, what's happening outside of that radius? >> Absolutely. >> And we know the cartel will go outside of that radius, but what else is happening outside of that? So when you're seeing hundreds of incursions a day within that small footprint, they're trying to get it expanded with no movement.

What's happening outside of that footprint that we're not seeing? You don't you don't have the capabilities to to know that. >> Alli, thank you so much for giving us your time and your expertise. >> Yeah, I think that we're going to have some fun down here and figure out what's going on. >> Our adventure continues. >> Alas, it does.

So, it was great to be able to meet our correspondent Alli Bradley on the southern border last year and see for ourselves the issues with the wall, the weaknesses in our border, and the lack of resourcing that means that organized crime cartels are able to smuggle people and drugs across the border, including with drones. As Alli explained there, it's quite obvious that the cartels are pretty clever. They're very sophisticated. They're using highly advanced drone technology that's often difficult for uh border patrol people to detect. But that doesn't explain, it's quite clear, the extent of incursions by objects over military bases in Arizona and other states much further to the north.

I don't think it's plausible, seeing what we've seen with Alli, that those illicit organized crime cartel drones can explain the anomalous objects we're seeing on military bases, not just in Arizona, but frankly right across the continental USA. There's a huge hole in the official explanation for the drones. Officially, of course, they're supposedly FAA authorized. And the ones that aren't, they're supposedly recreational drones that have somehow strayed. Frankly, that doesn't wash.

I've been told multiple times by my own sources that these drones have resisted attempts to bring them down, that they have some kind of ability to operate with impunity over often very sensitive military air bases which have used high pulse microwave weapons to no effect against them. Thanks very much to Alli Bradley for helping us there. And just to flag, Alli's got a great new show coming on NewsNation called Bradley on the Border. More about it in the box below. You'll be able to watch her on our NewsNation YouTube channel where she's joining me as a neighbor.

Thanks once again for joining Reality Check. By the way, we're very interested in hearing from anyone in that New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada region, the great swath of American desert who knows anything about the anomalous objects that we know. We're hearing from many military people are being reported operating extensively in those areas. I'm told military bases are being buzzed almost nightly by strange objects that can't be explained away as drones, no matter what the White House wants you to think. As Senator Roger Wicker of the Senate Armed Services Committee has confirmed, the Pentagon is still mystified by these drone incursions.

I think that is an extraordinary admission. More soon from reality check on the anomalous goings on in the great American desert both above ground and below ground. Oh yes, it's underground as well. More soon. And if you've got any information you want to send us, we'd love to hear from you.

Thanks very much for joining us. [Music]