AATIP AND THE NEW YORK TIMES WITH COLM KELLEHER - UAP STUDIES PODCAST

Transcript

[Music] are you paying attention on our show today we have Dr colum kellerer who is a molecular biologist uh the former Deputy Administrator of CL uh which was the program run by Robert Bigalow also in conjunction with oap lots of acronyms we're going to explain it all and break it all down uh so welcome to the show Dr colum ker thank you good to be here glad to have you sir and of course my uh astute host co-host Jason gilmet how are you my friend I am doing very good I'm so excited for this uh conversation been looking forward to it all week so bring it on sure so we kind of just wanted to give a rough uh background in terms of of the chronology I know there's a lot of misconceptions out there people have heard the term atip uh which predominantly comes from that 2017 release in the New York Times the Tic Tac video the gimbal video uh but there's a lot of misconceptions around which program had the funding uh ASAP actually predates atip and they were the bulk of the research and uh call them you work for ATP and again we had George napon last week his perspective was from nids which was in '95 to 96 which was the National Institute of Discovery Science um George was a consultant to Robert Bigalow for that so when Robert Bigalow got the contract to actually help study this phenomenon he pulled all the resources he had including yourself and Dr James zaty uh so give us a bit of a breakdown of how this all started and what it turned into well it really does go back I think George probably mentioned this all the way back to 1995 um when when Robert Bigalow um decided to form this organization called National Institute for Discovery Science and so um in 1996 um he began Robert Bigalow started hiring people he hired a physicist he hired a full-time veterinarian and he hired me um my background is biology molecular biology biochemistry and the purpose for nids was to really start bringing mainstream science methodology to the study of anomal IES and that would include everything from um UFOs all the way out through the um the so-called survival of human consciousness after death which is a very different topic But as time has gone on in the last 25 years it's become more and more obvious that there's considerable overlap between these two topics so in August of 1996 um just after I was hired Robert Bigalow and and nid started hearing through the grap fine a lot of uh reports that were coming out of this weird Ranch in northeastern Utah um long story short within a month Robert Bigalow had purchased it um had moved a lot of equipment onto the property and by the end of August 1996 things were in full swing I and uh the the two other staff members I had mentioned um were deployed on the property full time beginning in uh September of 1996 I spent probably 300 plus days on Skinwalker Ranch it became later known as Skinwalker Ranch after George and I had published this book called hunt for the skinwalker um which was 2005 but between 1996 and 2002 um we had a const nids had a constant stream of technical people um support people and uh scientific Talent as well as of a lot of equipment deployed on Skinwalker wrench and the bottom line was to try to capture evidence of anomalies because the the discovery part of National Institute for Discovery Science was um based on the premise that studying anomalies is part of the scientific discovery process so the way to Short Circuit um a lot of the um creativity in science is to put a lot of focus on anomalies and that way to initiate um this whole new areas of study so you know um looking at anomalies is a very legitimate part of the scientific process or it certainly should be so um by 2002 uh we had accumulated nids had accumulated a lot of data on Skinwalker Ranch we had documate documented probably a 100 separate anomalies we had small amounts of physical evidence but not a huge amount um after that um probably by 2004 I left to uh to take up a position at a biotechnology company in San Francisco I was uh working on biology and biochemistry for about four years got a call from Robert Bigalow in 2008 saying um there's a new program um funded by the defense intelligence agency that's starting up to study UFOs um about $22 million over two years and uh he wanted me to come from San Francisco back to Las Vegas and you know this was an offer I just couldn't refuse the idea of working behind the scenes at one of the Premier intelligence agencies in the country so naturally I jumped on a plane and in November of 2008 um I started work for uh Bigalow um Bigalow AA space Advanced space studies and we the purpose of of this new organization was to execute on the defense intelligence agency contract which was the advanced Aerospace Weapons Systems application program also known as oap so November of 2008 is really when um I was tasked with uh hiring a a team of Specialists to start working on this program um it had just been recently funded and um we were we were determined to get our boots on the ground as quickly as possible so I within the next four four to five months I conducted probably two to 300 separate uh interviews of people we were trying to recruit recruit people as fast as possible but obviously we weren't you know dragging people in off the street we were trying to get people number one who had a lot of uh experience uh scientifically who had a lot of experience in Counter Intelligence operations who had backgrounds in Military Intelligence um who had phds in some case master's degrees in some case um we also hired sort of um Specialists uh database specialists um and and and also analysts as well as security officers so by probably um Mid 2009 I had hired approximately 50 full-time people who were you know up and running by mid mid 2009 we had a full a full staff including security officers including Military Intelligence people uh scientists engineers technicians translators um you know it it was a very very fast pace for normally for a government program um it would probably take two years to put that kind of a team together but we did it in less than six months now on top of that we also had to put together the entire security infrastructure of the organization which meant that we had to uh outfit buildings um to so that they could be accredited by the defense intelligence agency and the National Security Agency to handle top secret Communications top SEC secret material and top secret documents so that whole thing was running in parallel so the people in Washington DC you mentioned Dr James latsky um were very very active during that whole period because we were working in tandem out of Las Vegas uh the main team of 50 people were working in Las Vegas but at the same time there was a separate arm out in Washington DC who were tasked with getting all of the security infrastructure together and I don't know how much you know about government programs but getting fast-tracked top secret seci clearances in a matter of months just doesn't happen right I mean this this was an extraordinary achievement to to put together not only the security infrastructure but also have the people involved and also um get the whole thing up and running within a six-month period uh like I said I would guess the normal way things are done uh for a government program would be to have that kind of thing up maybe in two years maybe three years so um it was an extraordinar rapid pace and the reason for that was that we knew that the Clock Was ticking this was a very very controversial program even within the Pentagon so we knew that there was a lot of people who a did not want to see this happen at all but B once it was up and running they were really interested in taking some of the money uh and C they were really interested in shutting down the program so there was a lot of um internal activity going on that the people in Washington DC um really did an excellent job in preventing any of that from happening so we actually ran successfully for 24 months with a 3-month no cost extension so the that the entire duration of this program was 27 months months which was um a very very active time well is it not true that the um the acronym a tip was actually a nickname given to the program for the sole reason to make it harder for people within the Pentagon to figure out what's actually going on a tip would lead nowhere because assap is the actual program so even with high clearance people that's right oap was the the program was um was put out for bid on the um on the normal uh way that the federal government does it goes it used to go through a website uh portal called um what was it called uh it's now called s.gov but it was called something else in in those days but it was where where um the dod or the doe or other other NASA um other organizations used to put programs out for bid so uh this was a competitively bid process that ended up that the Assaf program um was was fully funded by the defense intelligence agency um the atip uh acronym arose basically as you mentioned because the process of acquiring special Access program status which was initiated by Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid as a way of protecting the oap program because a lot of data was being accumulated some of that data was classified and some of the methodology uh being used to collect that data was classified so in order to protect the program uh further Senator Reed initiated this uh program with the um with the Department of Defense in order to gain special Access program status but a way of protecting uh the the information on AUP was to use a nickname which we called atip in order to protect the program so atip was nothing more than essentially a nickname it had no basis as a program it had no basis even as a project but later on sort of several years later um that the the word atip was used um to essentially name a an unfunded um collab collaborative project that was operating behind the scenes from people who are working on their own time people who are collaborating with each other within the Department of Defense so uh when the New York Times article in December 2017 published um this you know they basically broke the whole program they mistakenly used that um acronym a tip instead of the word oap and they mistakenly assigned Lou alzando to be head of this program um linking it with the $22 million in funding and that you know that was a mistake in reporting by the New York Times um but it it set in in in motion a chain of events that um escalated the the the whole um effort of a tip into something that never it never never should have oap was the program that ran for 27 months AA was the program that had $22 million of fund fing ASAP was the program that had 50 full-time um professionals that were working you know 40 to 60 hours a week on this program a tip on the other hand was not a funded program a tip was uh was was not an officially sanctioned program it was a an unofficial collaborative effort between people in the Pentagon who had an interest in this topic and who were trying to interview uh Pilots another military personnel who had encountered UFOs so one of the things that um I one of the first things you guys mentioned in this book which is um you know I tabbed it and and highlighted the crap out of my book but that's what I do when SS interesting uh was the temperature drops did did you experience that yourself as well sir like this the drops in temperatures yes I I you know like I mentioned I spent about 300 days and nights on uh on skin marer wrench and there were times when you would get these um especially at nighttime you would get these sudden drops in temperature um and that they were they always had physical boundaries um you could you could move outside the zone of low temperature um but you know that was that was a sort of a a really um obvious mark for these three intelligence agency people that had been deployed on Skinwalker Ranch they ran into one of these low temperature zones on their way down to the West End of Skinwalker rench and um you know it was a really obvious drop in temperature but those those effects were not uncommon on on skin marer wrench and let's talk about the wide variety of phenomenon you know 10 years ago if you told somebody UFOs in Bigfoot are probably related they'd laugh at you right but we've had reports of UFOs Cryptids temperature drops as Jason mentioned uh orbs blue and other colors wolf hybrids or Skin Walkers quote unquote Poltergeist phenomenon cattle mutilation holes in the sky uh people have had physical medical injuries from encounters with blue orbs uh and you know we talk about in your or you talk about in your book The Hitchhiker effect so maybe explain a little bit about how strange it is and how much more strange it was that you know people didn't even expect it was going to go down that hole I know George nap last week said we didn't want it to turn into this we didn't expect that it was going to be Poltergeist and UFOs and Cryptids and all the rest we thought we were doing a nuts and bolts you know military focused operation with assap long-term and just looking at actual repeatable data and then all of this sort of metaphysical stuff just came along with it so maybe you could comment on that yeah uh we we did start off with putting a lot of emphasis on skin walker Ranch and you know one one of the things that tends to be forgotten with h skin marer Ranch is that from the very very beginning um nuts and bolts UFOs were routinely seen on Skinwalker Ranch um the there was a ranching family that first took possession in 199 before they saw um nuts and bolts objects flying around that that were you know UFOs um right after Robert Bigalow purchased the property I was standing with a physicist outside the the main command and control center uh when I saw this object coming from uh just from behind skin walker Ridge which runs across the North End of the property this thing was traveling as fast as an F-18 very very fast very low but the spooky thing about it was it was really silent so it came right above our heads um you know as we stood watching it brightly lit but you could see it was low enough in the sky that there was structure behind it and it came right over our heads did a perfect uh uturn and then shot back over Skinwalker Ridge heading Northwest but it was absolutely silent you could see you know you could see structure behind the light um but the it was so Eerie because it was so silent but that was obviously a structured object right um so I personally came in contact with the so-called nuts and bolts phenoma on the ranch um Axel rod in 2009 with his with his companions actually photographed an object that looked like it was a metallic object on Skinwalker r in 2009 Robert Bigalow sold the property in 2016 to Brandon Fugal property developer from Salt Lake City he deployed a bunch of scientists on the property uh to continue the kind of research that had been done and lo and behold he's on the record and his his team are on the record with having seen nuts and Bs objects so the the ground The Ground Zero phenomena on skin worker Ranch were nuts and bols pH PHA but layered on top of that uh collocating and happening at the same time you had orbs of various colors flying around the property I mean we routinely saw yellow orbs flying around the property but there were also blue orbs and red orbs that were seen uh cattle mutilations were very common on the property cattle disappearances animal disappearances there was discarnate voices you know voices that were sort of speaking out of nowhere in the darkness to people uh we had unusual creatures as you had mentioned on the property pist activity was routine both in all of the houses as well as out on the property things would get moved around the the the in internal of the house you would find your car keys would end up in the microwave and this kind of thing um randomly and and it happened all the time uh black Shadows humanoid Shadows were routinely seen so it was kind of like this layer upon layer upon layer of Paranormal Activity um that was associated with the the nuts and bolts activity but you know as George nap mentioned um we went in determined uh with the OA program we went in determined to you know maximize the data collection and that was it we were we were following the scientific method maximize data collection not only the nuts and bolts but also anything else that happened that could be defined as an anomaly and not to collect that kind of data is unscientific in in the way we were looking at things so from the get-go we had permission from the defense intelligence agency to not only collect all of the sensor-driven data on UFO performance you know the altit to the the lights uh videotape um and and you know all of all of those aspects of UFO performance but also we had the Mandate from the defense intelligence agency to collect any additional data that constituted human effects effects of of UFOs on human biology uh human psychology or any any effects that could be deemed uh paranormal and you know we did not go into this program to start collecting data on Paranormal Activity we went into this program to collect data and it just happened that in the process of following the data we ended up collecting a lot of this unusual phenomena data but you know remember Skinwalker Ranch is not unique there are multiple different areas around uh the United States for example doy New Mexico um s Louis Valley in Colorado we spent some time in uh also uh one of our colleagues spent a lot of time up near mom Air Force Base in Montana collected enormous amounts of data on UFO performance around milrom Air Force Base but also collected a lot of weird data on anomalies including catle mutilations um orbs and unusual creatures so Skinwalker Ranch is not this kind of you know weird Bass that you can shove aside um we maintain that if if a UFO program takes the time and takes the sort of the long-term view of constantly re-interviewing uh UFO Witnesses eventually these witnesses will start talking about the long-term effects of UFOs have have on their lives and that does include some medical effects it includes um some psychological effects sometimes people sleep patterns are Disturbed um they they they go into this sort of trauma um following a close encounter with the UFO and sometimes even Paranormal Activity start uh you know starts erupting around them but you know you've got to be able to um follow these people longterm that's number one you know the weekend warrior model of UFO investigation where you just go out on a Saturday and a Sunday you collect the data and you never sort of see the witness again that will not get you the kind of data that Alla collected because we had you know we had mdphd medical professionals that were Consultants that worked with us and we were able to uh deploy these medical professionals in some cases for months and in a couple of cases even for years to follow up on the on the medical consequences of UFO phenomena we were able to take serial blood samples we were able to take MRI um Imaging um so we were able to put together these very detailed medical uh pictures of what what a a UFO witness encounter uh life look like including serial blood samples so we were able to document it changes in um Immunology um biochemistry hematology and some of these Witnesses so we were able to put together other pretty sophisticated pictures and you know our you know opinion is that the AAP uh template for how things were operating was really the the template for any future UFO uh program if you if you uh constrain a UFO program and you only look at a certain narrow rifle shot of data and you exclude 95 % of the data that's coming in and you only look at this sort of tiny you know data stream you're going to miss the entire phenomena and if you make excuses like some people in the Department of Defense are saying that this is not in the purview of the Department of Defense to study this these kinds of activities you're automatically being unscientific and you're automatically torpedoing the the the prospect of putting together a coherent picture of what this phenomenon is if you look at the acronym oap it's Advanced Aerospace weapon system application so by its very definition Aerospace weapon system so I guess the initial intent is can we utilize this can we weaponize this as most countries would do when researching the same and like you said uh if if the data and the science is taking you a direction if it really is a credible project you don't have those boundaries and limitations anymore you go where the data is and I've heard you on another interview mention that once there was boots on the ground at skin walker Ranch there was people from all different government agencies and there was a case of five separate Intelligence Officers all from different branches all five had hit trer effects uh there was a biotechnologist who saw you know three blue orbs moving erratically his daughter saw them they even entered his car so even the staff that are going there to do nuts and bolts science and collect data become part of the study because it's not just the stuff that they're you know if you're looking for for Witnesses and Hands-On experiencers who better than science-minded trained observers to document exactly what's happening so it's sort of took on a life of its own and did you did you experience any hher effects of your own sir like did that happen to you too yes I I think pretty well everybody who was on the property um experienced hitchhikers hitchhiker effects but the the type of effects that I experienced were um you know my wife would wake up and see uh you know people walking in the bedroom walking towards the bed um they occasionally black Shadows were seen in the house and this kind of thing but it never really escalated until um the defense intelligence agency in 2000 late 2008 um started sending their personnel from different armed services Navy Army uh Marines to skin walker Ranch in order to corroborate or validate the claims of unusual activity that were was going on there so they conducted site visits by sending trained observers from the different intelligence agencies and the different armed services so as you mentioned five out of five of those people who were deployed at different times not only had dramatic effects on the property but also brought um brought anomalies home with them in other words you know particularly the head of the of the uh the the field field observation unit uh was a guy called Axel Rod he brought um he brought a lot of activity home with him so in his home in all the way out in Virginia you know 2 and a half thousand miles from the the ranch with within a month of him arriving home after seeing what he saw on on Skinwalker wrench his wife started seeing unusual stuff he had two teenage Sons at the time in his home they started seeing unusual creatures they W would wake up with these sort of black shadowy humanoids you know over their beds they would wake up with orbs blue or or red orbs in their bedroom flying through the bedroom they would see bizarre creatures outside the uh their homes there was one particular case where um uh axelrod's wife was going to bed at night in their in their place in Virginia I was just sort of locking up and shutting down all the lights in the backyard when she saw this thing um in the uh in the backyard in a tree line and it was like an upstanding it looked like a large wolf but it was standing on two legs which was anatomically impossible um you know it's okay for a a sort of a a German Shepherd to stand on its rear legs and tot her around but this thing was standing comfortably on two legs looking at her in a very unfriendly way she was completely shocked and traumatized to the extent that she decided she was either hallucinating or something else was happening but she said I'm not going to say anything to my family at all two or three days later Saturday morning 10:00 in the morning bright sunny morning the two teenage boys were were downstairs and the uh the window o overlooks the backyard one of the boys looks out and standing in the backyard in full daylight was another Apparition it looked like a uh a a large wolf standing on two legs again looking in at him staring at him in a very unfriendly way he alerted his brother and the two of them watched as this thing ran right across the the backyard um kicking up leaves as it went and sort of um you know running comfortably anatomically impossible of course on two legs and then disappeared into the tree line where the you know the wife had seen the the animal three nights before two nights before but this thing was kicking up leaves as it ran so it looked like it was having some kind of physical effect on the environment the family you know got together right after this incident because the two kids were terrified by what they had just seen uh the family got together um and it turned out you know the wife eventually admitted that she had seen something like this uh a couple of nights before so they all went out to the backyard and went over to the tree where she had seen this creature and on the tree were these obvious l the claw marks that had uh you know been embedded in the bark of the tree so you know the implication of that was that there was physical evidence from whatever had been this upright wolf-like creature um so it was capable of interacting with the environment so you know people would tend a skeptic would tend to say well these guys were just imagining things it was just a sort of a figment of their imagination but the fact is that not only was this happening but there was also physical effects of these uh this creature that was having on the environment so it was a lot more than just somebody's mental fantasy it was there yeah I was going to say all three of you guys had phenomenon at home George knp reported that his wife had had some strange things happen and uh your your third co-author Dr James akatski he reported really intense experiences at home and said he was probably the worst off from all of you guys well there was if if you look at um you know the 25 year history starting uh when the nids group started on the property going through all of the Assa people we interviewed um you know a lot of security guards used to rotate up and down the property so to keep trespassers off the property um we interviewed George nap and I interviewed about a dozen these people all of whom had seen um effects in their homes um as I mentioned uh when Brandon Fugal purchased the property um he he deployed a team on on the property and lo and behold these people were really skeptical saying all this stuff that you know I've been reading about it's none of it is true but lo and behold their wives and kids started seeing all this weird stuff erupting in their homes so Not only was it just the uh nid stuff and the OA people but it was also this recent group between 2016 and 2022 and the these these uh operations and activities in people's homes are continuing right to this day I mean it's not like it's like something in way back in history um some of the the people like uh who originally experienced stuff on Skinwalker Ranch back in 2009 are still experiencing stuff in their homes so it's not like um it was sort of a an an aarant sort of phenomenon that went away the other thing I'd like to mention is that this is not a skin walker Ranch specific phenomenon this hitchhiker effect is not a um only Skinwalker range specific phenomen um because again uh we had that individual that you mentioned actually um where he had interacted with three blue orbs of light um that were on his way towards Bend Oregon he had the daughter in his car one of the uh three orbs flew towards the uh the car one of them came through the the window went right across the dash and went out the other one went in front of the car the other one went through his a shoulder as he was driving the car went through his body exited his right shoulder right in front of the daughter and then he had a whole sort of lengthy um extremely traumatic medical consequences to to that happen but you know what's sometimes forgotten is the daughter actually when she went home uh to the east coast to go back to college um all hell broke loose in her home all the way out on the East Coast with three of her uh roommates they shared a roommate uh you know roommates going to college and all of them saw weird creatures in the house they saw orbs flying around in their you know in their homes they would wake up at night and these humanoid black shadow creatures would be standing over them very very scary stuff but that daughter had nothing to do with skin walker wrench but yet in terms of close encounters with UFOs one of the long-term effects of having um close encounters with UFOs is sometimes these kinds of Hitchhiker effects occur too and I should also mention that a subset of the people who had um The Hitchhiker effect brought some stuff home with them a subset of family members started coming down with a variety of autoimmune diseases and so you know you have people reporting Kawasaki uh disease disas soin syndrome lupus and various other um Hashimoto thyroiditis so a variety of different autoimmune diseases would erupt and these were you know this was not a huge number of people but it was enough to catch our attention and uh you know so I think a future UFO program should take a careful look at the long-term effects of the UFO phenomenon on people well even because you I got to talk to a few people on the abduction phenomenon they always say that you know there could be radiation effects for people even we were talking to uh Kathleen Martin about Betty and Barney Hill and you know they were worried that there might be radiation coming from the craft onto their car Betty of course died of an aggressive cancer she was also a very heavy smoker so that didn't help her case but she died of cancer um and I've always wondered that like you know people having these experiences even middle of the night or whatever do they are they more at risk of cancer or other diseases so yeah it's weird and the blue orbs like you guys mentioned the blue nasties seem to be the uh the guilty culprits for a lot of these elets right and you guys had a case study too did you not of a man in Georgia he was irradiated by like a black triangle and you know all the various anomalies and even the psychological effects not only just the physical measurable most of these people will report some type of phys aot like even the ones that didn't feel threatened from an abduction case or something similar it was still trauma none of them loved it and couldn't wait to get back that doesn't happen it's a trauma that's right I mean the case you're you're mentioning um was a classic case of um you know this guy was minding his own business in Georgia he walked out he was checking on a son who was uh you know staying the night with friends in a tent in the backyard but he he noticed his dog was barking he came out and uh he noticed this totally silent football field sized uh triangle right over his property um and uh he tried to take some uh cell phone photos but his cell phone wasn't working so he went back inside and grabbed a pretty high-intensity uh flashlight you know sort of M million candle power flashlight came out and illuminated the under of the of the craft and immediately he did this this really intense blue uh Ray was shot out from the craft hit him and sort of uh he turned to protect himself you know and it hit the back of his neck and uh it was heating him up so he he walked back indoors or ran back indoors to get away from it but you know within a few hours of this uh event he was uh he had a headache he had metallic taste in his mouth several days later he noticed that his hair was starting to fall out and so we deployed one of the mdphd uh people our medical Consultants um to spend time with him to take him to the hospital have blood samples um this guy went through a whole sort of series of classic um consequences of getting irradiated and you know one of the hypothesis we had was that this was nonionizing radiation that was uh that was had happened on this guy because I mean he lost a lot of his uh lot of the hair on the back of his head um he had the classic signs of sunburn extreme sunburn on the back of his neck um he did have a whole bunch of tumors erupting in his body luckily there were benign tumors uh it was sort of a a diagnosis of Castle man's disease but he went through a couple of years of uh not only sort of psychological uh trauma but also medical trauma um and all of this stuff erupted right after you know from this event of getting irradiated on his own property by this object in the sky and you know you have to ask the question you know if if a lot of Skeptics would say these are special access programs run by the United States military uh that these triangular craft are up in the sky but you have to ask if these are run by the United States military why are they irradiating um United States citizens who are mining their own business on on their own property um I mean that's that's beyond the legal and it's uh Beyond unethical um in terms of of that kind of behavior obviously whoever's doing it it is equally unethical but the the idea that the United States military would be operating special access programs in such a fool hearty way yeah you know parking parking very large triangular objects over neighborhoods is a very very dangerous thing to do with an experimental aircraft so it just doesn't make sense to explain away all of this stuff by saying these are special access programs so the whole radiation thing is really interesting because um not only you know this guy was a radiated the the the person with the uh that had blue orbs going through their body came up with a rare form of ductal carcinoma um that that actually eventually was resolved luckily it did not metastasize but there were various in incidents like that of an acute medical effects but um also tied in with hair loss metallic taste in the mouth sunburn um uh all of these classic signs that seem to point in the direction of nonionizing radiation so yeah I mean we think that that there was a subset of these cases um that are very um suspicious nice wow so where is the investigation at now you know nids ran its course ASAP which was originally supposed to be a five-year program you know it was going to be a longer broadscale study it was cut short to what 20 months or something like that call it two years uh and then 27 months yeah yeah and then atib comes out um you know in its time frame but even like the Tic Tac video that happened years and years before it was released so where is the new sort of uh information coming from and like what's actually happening right now well as you know in in December of 2017 the New York Times uh broke the article on on the on the Tic Tac case as well as the uh this Secret Pentagon UFO program which they got wrong in terms of the naming um but you know that initiated a whole sort of series of events behind the scenes the Department of Defense put together uh what they call the UAP task force in uh 20 actually on officially it was a starting in about 20 uh 2018 it but it became became official in 2020 when it was announced but a lot of the people who had worked on the OAC program and their and some of their collaborators ended up working on the uh UAP task force so a lot of these people knew a lot of what they were doing uh so so on June 25th of 2021 um the uh Office of odni the the B the main intelligence uh umbrella announced that uh u u UFOs or uaps were real but that announcement basically sent shock waves through the Western world because the United States had always denied any knowledge of UFOs and denied any knowledge uh that uaps were even existed but here they were making this announcement uh on June 25th of 2021 subsequent to that there's been a lot of uh briefings uh you know the Senate intelligence committee Senate armed services committee um in Congress where a lot of uh Senate people are getting very very interested in the fact that hundreds of these um unidentified objects have been documented in the last few years in association with carrier strike groups and uh other other United States military assets that's both on the East and the West Coast so bottom line for this whole thing is that there is a new quote unquote official UAP organization that is um it's housed at the uh usdi which is the under secretary of defense for intelligence and uh their tasked with basically reporting out uh with classified briefings to Senate armed services committee and Senate intelligence committee and I think they're also tasked with releasing ing an annual UFO report a status of the situation but you know to be honest I don't think this organization is capable of um putting together the kind of indepth investigate investigation apparatus that oap actually put together in a matter of six months this organization usdi is not it's it's more like an oversight organiz ation it does not have boots on the ground probably never will have boots on the ground so I think the best that we can hope for is some sort of um lowlevel series of reporting out on the UFO phenomenon some low-level classified briefings to the senate senate intelligence committee and Senate armed service committee but in terms of the the kinds of um really intensive investigation um that's the kind of thing that oap really put into place and skin workers at the Pentagon that book that we published um appendix two of that book lays out line by line a complete sort of menu of the kind of organization you would need to put together in order to adequately investigate this UFO phenomenon yeah I'll be honest I don't think the um the implementation of this plan at the usdi is going to go anywhere close to uh the level of and the intensity of the investigation that's needed at best it's going to be sort of uh another Project Blue Book that might sort of report occasionally on cases but it's not going to do the kind of um 50 full-time people that are are only organized in order to investigate these cases day after day week after week I mean that's what you need in order to make some Headway on this phenomenon because this phenomenon is very very complex it's not the kind of thing that you can say okay we'll deploy a couple of dozen sensors here we'll get some sensor data and then we'll explain this whole thing away that's not the way this works and it's worldwide like you mentioned it's everywhere there's a bunch of different Pockets there's a bunch of different like even here in uh British Columbia it's a hot zone for UAP activity so yeah right it's it's it's a global problem and I always think that that should be something that I don't know not saying NATO but some bigger organization can actually form maybe some sort of team as opposed to just having countries forming their own little teams here and there not communicating and of course that slows down the whole process so yeah and and you know one of the things that oap did was we did try to go um International we we deployed teams of investigators to Brazil to look into some of the activity in northeastern Brazil in Fort ala we interviewed people associated with the the famous Karis incidents back in the late 70s but we also deployed a team to uh Brazilia the capital of Brazil and we interviewed highlevel people with uh with the the department the the government of Brazil and we were actually instrumental in putting uh in the Brazilian government issuing a series of documents pertaining to uh the release of information on UFOs so um that that part of the program was very productive uh we had some uh we had some overlap with some of the U uh UFO cases in the United Kingdom but you know if the Assa program had been allowed to continue for you know another two or three years uh we were really only getting started we were getting to be the status of of a well-oiled machine but if we had been allowed to continue for about five years we probably would have done a pretty good job in reaching out with uh you know International liaison uh because the defense intelligence agency has a network of you know uh Liaisons within a lot of countries around the world and so we were about to activate that Network when the um you know when the program was shut down mostly for political reasons uh but also because there were elements within the Pentagon that were getting very uncomfortable with the fact that there was a lot of productivity happening there was a lot of discussion about what this program was doing in in the Pentagon so people were getting uncomfortable that the profile of this program was too high well I've I can speak for myself as well as Jason we really enjoyed reading skinwalkers at the Pentagon it's the kind of book you've got to read more than once there's so much information even if you're really well-versed on this subject the amount of acronyms and everything else it takes a bit of understanding and even for myself I sort of plotted the chronology of nids to assap to atip and it really puts everything into perspective because Robert Bigalow is doing his thing with nids and then Skinwalker Ranch the same time the government programs running and he gets the contra track for that so it all make sense if you absorb it slowly and on multiple occasions so um yeah do you have anything else you want to ask Jason no like I said this this book I will also it absolutely praise it because I've like I said I highlighted you know a lot of the pages and tabbed everything so it it is a fantastic book and I do also recommend it for the uh UAP uh studiers out there let's just call them that for the listeners for the time being yeah col thank you so much for coming on to the podcast today it it's been a pleasure and hopefully it's not the last time that we have you on hopefully you'll come on again this platform is always open to you okay well uh thank you I really enjoyed it and uh for sure yeah I can uh always come back at some time in the future perfect sir have a great day thank you really appreciate it [Music] are you paying attention