Is Anti-Gravity The Technology of the Past? Townsend Brown Story with Paul Shatzkin
Transcript
if the money thought time and energy now being poured uselessly into the development of rocket propulsion were invested in a basic study of gravity it's likely we could have an effective and economical space travel at a small fraction of the cost within a decade this was written by townin Brown in 1955 30 years after he invented antira so if this is true and there is any gravity where
are all the flying cars where are the propulsion Vehicles well many suspect they're here except they're not Cars they're the unidentified aerial phenomena being recorded at military bases and they're the evolution of towns and's work being developed in secrecy by the government for decades today we're going to learn about the life of Thomas Townsen brown with our guest Paul shatkin he's the author of the man who mastered gravity now let's hear from Paul okay let's [Music] go
the journey that I have been on and we're going to talk about the second half of it but the journey started with things that I learned about pho Farnsworth in the 1970s so we can talk about that progression and then talk about brown but it's interesting how one thing led to another and I do think that in some ways they are tied together but then then then we're going out into the future yeah and I I love the story because the ionic Air Breeze purifier might be the most mundane
boring invention that Sharper Image has ever made somehow it relates to UFOs quantum mechanics and government conspiracy to control gravity yeah that makes me think uh what else are we overlooking at this Sharper Image you know maybe the Temperpedic pillow has a gateway to another dimension well it does because arguably when we go to sleep and start dreaming uh we go our our dreams come from somewhere unknown to us and maybe that's some interconnected place in the quantum Realm uh yeah
I just did an interview uh about Tesla uh about a month ago and he really seemed to believe that he thought that these ideas were out there and chose the right person uh interesting yeah I I I think that there I think that that that is arguable I I don't I don't dispute that contention um there there are what what did Shakespeare say there are more things in our philosophy or more things in Heaven and Earth uh than are known in our philosophy Horatio something like that I might be
getting my Shakespeare's mixed up there but yeah so take us back how did you get into writing to begin with because are you in did you go to school for this no not at all I haven't gone to school for any of this um maybe that's why you're good at it that's what I like to think that you know one of my favorite um one of my favorite lines that I picked up in this whole journey is is a quotation from from Cliff Gardner who was the glass blower who fabricated the very first television camera
tubes in the 1920s and in 1930 he showed somebody how he made that camera tube and the person he was showing it to was very impressed with the techniques and said well this is very interesting because my people told me this could not be done and and Cliff Gardner said well we didn't know it couldn't be done so we just went ahead and did it yeah so so not knowing what can't be done kind of leaves the field open to exploring possibilities that we
might not otherwise be cognizant of it's like a ignorance is bliss right well let's not go that far well so but but to your point there is there is a point at which Orthodoxy becomes a very constraining mechanism and invariably historically advances are made by things that live outside the Orthodoxy progress always comes in from The Fringe and is usually as schopenhauer put it this is one of the quotations in the fars book
The Truth always goes through three three phases first it is ridiculed then it is opposed and often violently and then in the third stage it's recognized as having been self-evident all along so somewhere in there is the voice of the Orthodoxy resisting the change that's always coming in from the periphery what point in your life were you at when you decided I'm going to write about this by farnworth well when it became a um a writing kind of obsession was in the mid
1970s and the motivation there was when I told a colleague I was working in Hollywood uh working on TV shows at the time uh in in the tech Field behind the scenes and said to somebody that F Pho T farnworth was the father of television and he had never heard that name and when I began to tell him what little I knew of the story he said well that would make a great movie for television and I at the time had aspirations of moving to a different point in a career and being
a producer of of Television material and so that was kind of the point of of initiation where we track began to track down the material now I first learned of Pho Farnsworth that summer of 1973 as I was graduating from college I read this publication it's called radical song software and when I was going to school in the early 70s I'm much older than I look um but when I was going to school in the early 70s I was part of what we called the Gorilla video movement which was
kind of the the early stages of um personal use of of electronic media uh we we used the very first you know the people in this Movement we were kind of carryovers from the ideal ISM of the 1960s and thought that we could use the very first portable video technology with cable TV as a community organizing media and the the the publication that organized a lot of that effort was this publication called radical software and they published an issue from San
Francisco in the spring and summer of 1973 called the video City Edition because as I learned in its pages San Francisco was I'm sorry it was published from San Francisco rather than New York LIF that detail out but it was called the video City Edition from San Francisco because San Francisco is where video was invented in the 1920s and as I'm going through the pages of this magazine um I saw where are they now [Music] here we go pictures of what I would call the
prehistory of Television that I had never seen before and that's where I heard the name of Pho T Farnsworth which was a name that I had never heard of before and he turns out to be indeed the the single individual who not only had the concept of how to convert light into electricity but went through the whole process from the late 1920s into the mid 1930s of developing all the technology that became television in the 1940s and 50s and it gets more involved because he was also asked to
participate in the Manhattan experiment right yeah project yeah as the story evolves so we're talk what to to me one of the things that we Overlook in in our commonplace acceptance of video which is now the most the single most ubiquitous Appliance on the planet but what we we kind of Overlook is that in the same way the atomic bomb comes from the cosmology that Albert Einstein and his Brethren introduced at the beginning of the 20th century video is a product of that same cosmology
um if I were to ask you do you know what Einstein was awarded the Nobel Prize for give it to me I've read this though okay so interview do you think it do you think it was the theory of relativity or E equals MC squ pick one I know it was neither it was neither it was it was the photo electric effect the very first paper that he wrote in 1905 uh and it had this long name that I can't rattle off the top of my head now but it was the articulation of the process by which light becomes
electricity when it is focused on certain metals and electric electrons are thrown off of the metal metallic surface that is where we introduced the concept of light being both a wave and a particle it becomes the the Cornerstone of all the quantum mechanics that come at after it of which uh um the process to the atomic bomb is a is ultimately a result but he goes from the photoelectric effect to his other theories and lands on E equals MC s all over the course of 1905 but it began with the
photoelectric effect so Farnsworth at a very early age began to understand what all that cosmology was about that's what he applies to the problem of converting light into electricity for the purposes of transmitting moving pictures through the air and in the course of developing the technology which becomes television he gained more firsthand experience with the quantum forces that people like Einstein and then later Oppenheimer and the people who gathered at Los Alamos Pho Farnsworth
knew more about how those Quantum forces work than just about anybody living during that era and so as you say in indeed in the n in 1940 uh or early in in in World War II he was approached by somebody and asked to participate in a secret project in Chicago which would have been fy's pile the very first nuclear reactor which was part of the Manhattan Project and he said to his wife Pam I think they're building an atomic bomb and I want no part of it so he stayed isolated
on a farm in Maine throughout World War II the irony of this is he didn't want to have anything to do with the atomic bomb because obviously kills people but he did Create TV which destroys mindes so pick your poison well okay I I appreciate the iry in the statement but by the same token you and I are having this conversation right and and and being able to share ideas so there while there is clearly a downside there is an upside as well and and I would then argue as we
get farther into the Farnsworth story that he represents the ultimate upside to the processes and and and forces that they were dealing with at the in the Manhattan Project which we have yet to fully realize and that's the back half of the Farnsworth story where he was developing a controlled nuclear fusion process and this will all tie together at the end because I know you do have a theory on you know whether or not this was used and it's definitely interesting well
I have I have a theory of how it could be used um I'm I'm somewhat more reluctant to say that it's already being used is because then we're off into you know really questioning the nature of our reality it's all simulation anyway so it probably happened the story that we're talking about here this this was my introduction to all this I became obsessed with the farmsworth story when I learned in the summer of 1975 somebody who knew the farnworth family told me I knew only
that he had been involved in the very earliest stages of Television but I met somebody in the summer of 1975 who knew the farnworth family and uh told me was no I'm sorry it was the summer of 73 because I met the family in 75 but in the summer of 73 right after i' read this magazine this person that knew the forworth family told me what nuclear fusion is what it represents for the future of mankind and that forworth had developed something that seemed to show some promise uh
for that technology and that was the thing that has always hooked me and kept me interested in that story then a couple of years later when the said let's make a movie for television about it we track down the farnworth family long story short I've known the family since 75 we did try to get a movie for television going uh about the story never were able to do that I deferred to Mrs farnworth uh after I met her worked with her on the book that she was developing she sold
me the movie rights before she had ever finished the book and um I I never thought about writing a book until many years later after she had finished her book and that internet business that I was telling you about had had been sold and I was no longer involved in it I was wondering what to do next and then the opportunity to write my book on that subject came up and when I finished that book I figured okay I've now found my new career as a biographer of obscure 20th century scientists what
will I do next and and like I sent it out into the universe and the Universe came back and said how about this guy and this guy was T towns and brown and now one of the really crazy things is this is that you received an anonymous email about him and I almost wanted to say that town and brown is almost like an illness because once you catch it and start doing your research yeah it just affects you because now I have all these cons cons iracy Theory beliefs yeah and how did it get started for
you so so tell us about this Anonymous email well yeah I I I appreciate your use of the word illness I prefer to use the word Affliction or Obsession and and I I think in in some quarters the kind you know the idea of being OCD is acceptable so rather than saying I'm sick well just say that I'm OCD and this has been my obsession but as you say I in the summer of 2002 as I was putting the finishing touches on the biography of Pho forworth which was called the boy who invented television
I really was wondering at that point I was kind of at Loose Ends because I had sold the internet business um I had spent some time working on that book and I was wondering what I was going to do next and as I finished that book and enjoyed very much the process of doing that I did come up with this kind of brand idea that I'm going to be a biographer of obscure 20th century scientists so I needed another 20th century scientists to to research and write about and then literally I
think it was in July June or July of the summer of 2002 as I'm kind of putting the finishing touches on the gals of the farmsworth bio I literally get what I can only describe as an anonymous email it had a name on it I have no idea who the name was never been able to trace the individual down but says um uh for unknown inventors I think was the subject and it simply said another unknown inventor whose work has gone on recognized was T towns and brown it said that um science said that
what he proposed was impossible but the government classified it you can see the results of his work in a bluish Haze flying over the desert in Nevada and you can also and The Sharper Image also employed his technology in the Ionic Breeze Air Purifier yeah and that yeah so so I I did we go Google this was 2002 Google was just coming online so I I Googled the subject and I found a website and the website talked about how Thomas Townsen Brown had pioneered in the science of what
he called electrogravitics which popular culture calls anti-gravity I think is more correctly called gravity control or inducing artificial gravity but finding a means of inducing gravity and and because of the nature of his work it had been associated with the study and curiosity about unidentified flying objects and it was at that point in my reading and research that uh I was inclined to get very skeptical because while I don't discount the existence of
unidentified flying objects it that has never been a particular Obsession of mine on a on a basic philosophical level I don't think we're alone in the universe but that is I I've never been one of these people who is absolutely obsessed with that particular thing but this story became sufficiently intriguing and I needed something to do so I went down the rabbit hole and ever since I heard about this story even down to the email you received it feels like a
game of Clue because I can't help but associate one of the people that you interviewed for your book must be one of the people that sent the email the these are the ideas that are all within the realm of possibility and I have to confess up front that um well I ran away from the story for a long time because I was not comfortable with my inability to to verify or validate the information that was coming over the transom and I've always said of this story or I've said
in in its latest iteration that this is a story that lives in the realm you imagine a VIN diagram and you got three circles interlocking and one of them is science and the other is science fiction and the third is pseudoscience and this story lives where those those three circles overlap in the VIN diagram and and so I had to rely on sources the the veracity of which I was unable to verify and so the book is written in a way of this is what the sources told me and and in
that context yes it's possible that because of my interest that the people associate with towns and brown thought I might be a good candidate to look into his life and write a book on it that is a like I said more of the universe choosing the right vessel to send the message well if you've read the book then you know that the the log line the the epigraph that begins the book the very first thing you read is a quotation that I found very early on uh in the research phase in
the early a when I was just diving into this you may be familiar with the physicist mishuk Kaku he's a popular he's a popularizer of physics as as Neil degrass Tyson is and they're on kind of the same level Neil is more of an astrophysicist uh mukaku is more of a theoretical physicist but he has a documentary that was on PBS back around 2002 2004 somewhere in that period it's called um Isaac Newton and me and it began with this quotation the universe is filled with magical
things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper that I had to research because he didn't cite the source of the quotation in the documentary but I sourced it to an early science fiction writer uh who worked primarily between about the 1920s and 1940s named Eden Phil Poots and that's the quotation that starts the book and that has been the beacon that I have kept my eye on through the process of telling all these stories that indeed the universe is filled
with magical [Music] things but this particular species has reached a point where we have per perhaps um reached our limit to what we're mature enough to know yeah but uh it does seem like the information is finding its way by who knows what force but it is getting out there because we're having this conversation so that brings me to something that I noticed that was a connection between Pho and between towns and brown and that was Einstein's influence on both of them now yeah
what was Einstein's part as it relates to town and Brown's work early on Einstein himself was looking for what he called the unified field and I think this is the better answer to your question so we know uh over the course of the 19th century it was determined that electricity and magnetism were the opposite sides of the same force and become they are known as one of the four fundamental forces the one force is called electromagnetism Einstein in a a similar way was looking for a
connection between all of the known forces at the time which until we began to get deeper into quantum mechanics and discover radioactivity in the strong nuclear force were simply electricity and gravity Einstein was trying to find equations that would unify electricity and gravity and that is what towns and brown thought he had done apart from the theoretical considerations with the devices that he was building in the 1920s and 30s that he called gravitator he thought he was
demonstrating a connection between electricity and gravity so he found that link between gravity and electricity yeah that had been Elusive and it was by accident that he found that right um it was yeah that that you 200 years from now when we look back on all this and accept um when when towns and Browns work has gone through the shopow gauntlet and gone from from ridicule to opposed to recognizes uh um um the truth all along then they'll go back and look at the way towns and
brown made his discoveries early on as one of those accidents of science Brown is in a classroom in in MIT and they're doing something with what's called a coolage tube which is an x-ray tube and and it's a tube that uses a very high voltage and what brown notices when the current is applied to the tube he notices that the cable applying the current to the tube the cable itself seems to Twitch a little bit when the current is applied that's what got his attention and then later
he suspended a coolage tube and some kind of harness so that when the volt was applied he could see that it was generating some kind of thrust and that became the Genesis of his further studies looking for um some means of not necessarily producing a gravitational effect but a propellent less form of thrust and if you turn it vertically then it's sort of Defying Gravity without any known visible means of of propulsion and then once he found this how did he go about
showing this to the world what was step number two um Step number two would take us to he he did not do well at MIT he was constrained by the Orthodoxy there he went through the ridicule phase of his ideas and so he uh he had the means to move around a bit because his family was quite affluent wealthy and he went back to Ohio where he was originally raised had attended a prep school there that was the prep school for a place called um Dennison University and uh there
he he went back to to Dennis the um the director of The Observatory there there was a very uh high quality academic uh astronomical Observatory there called The sey Observatory and the director of that was a man named Paul Alfred beld who according to Legend was at the Zurich Institute at the same time as Einstein I guess that would be in about the 1890s or thereabouts so they Al Biel's name is sometimes associated with with Einstein but um beld held a common interest in the Quest
for the unified field and was interested in the potential link between electricity and gravity as brown was and so the story is that when that brown posed the question if if there is a link between electricity and gravity um what instrument might it resemble and then beld is reputed to have answered that it would look like a capacitor which is a device that stores an electric charge and now this is birth of the Byfield Brown effect right yeah I I believe it yeah I I think we have
three or four different pronunciations now I call it the beld brown effect I was sitting in on a conference over the weekend where they called it the B the beeld brown effect so it's either beld or Byfield or beeld or I I'm going to call it the Bell Brown effect I like the way that sounds better but yes it's the Bell Brown effect and it Bears both names in part because it was it was mostly Brown's ideas and discoveries but he began to get traction for it when he discussed it with
his professor at Dennis University Dr Paul Alfred bill or billed and now this is very important because this is the basis of his let's say let's just use the term anti-gravity so he puts out a publication electrographic how I control gravity right and this was basically explaining the bfield brown effect right right and he describes it at he called his devices gravits or gravitator so it's it's a it's a a mashup of gravity and capacitor and and they are built on stacks of capacitors
that that that then when are all stacked together have this electrically induced uh propellant or or motion effect and it's it's described in other circles as an asymmetric capacitor what we're we're observing is that in in the capacitor which is two elect electrodes electrically electrical plates that are spaced apart by another substance called a dialectric and I just happened to have here before me uh two plates from somebody who built a sample of a gravitator back in the late
o these These are discs of a a ceramic material called barium titanate and that's the kind of material that would separate the electron in one of these gravitator devices and uh the idea was it was an asymmetric capacitor so you see one of the plates is much thicker than the other plate hence the asymmetry and the what the the the basis of Brown's observation was that the negative pole negatively charged Pole would move toward the positively charged B but the positively charged
would move away so rather than them being pulled together in that context at those voltages it had this thrust effect that's the beld Brown effect once we have this Byfield Brown effect the next phase in his life I mean nothing really happens huge with this information he ends up going to the Navy to continue his work more right he joins the Navy in 1930 he goes through the basic training and whether or not this was his intent he finds his way to the Naval Research Labs which at the
time was the the the the government the militaries primary scientific physics and Military research facility and it's interesting to note as a sidebar that what becomes the Manhattan Project as we get into the 19 late 1930s early 1940s that project actually had its roots in the Naval Research labs and one of the people who um is is portrayed in the movie Oppenheimer and forgetting the actor's name who plays him but his his the character's name is vavar Bush and he was a very
prominent individual in the the top ranks of the scientific Community during this period and the Scientific Advisor to a series of presidents but it was Bush who was instrumental in taking the the Navy's incipient Research into nuclear science and moving it into the army where it then becomes the Manhattan Project but Brown goes to work for the Navy during this period and and and there there are records of the things that he was doing using the bifel brown effect and and I I won't go
into the the Weeds on it it's it's in the books but there is one aspect of it which Bears a market resemblance to the the technology which is at the heart of the story of The Hunt for Red October what they call the Magneto hydrodynamic Drive is the kind of thing that he was developing using not solid dial electrics but fluid dial electrics like air and water so this is where the brown Story begins to get very mysterious to me when I look at it it seems that this is when he became one of the
Men in Black yeah yeah because much of his work is hidden behind the secrecy act and he seems to have all these interactions with u you know the uh in in military industrial complex some of these larger private corporations because the Navy does invest into his work early on right yeah yeah yeah so they own it from the beginning were you were you I don't know what's the extent of your interest in Popular Science Fiction but were you a fan of the HBO series Westworld oh yeah
okay so you do do you remember the the critical question that Bernard who who granted turns out to be an Android himself later in the series but he's always asking Dolores this one question that it will be sort of the determining factor in whether or not the Androids are a achieving sensient do you remember what the question was it was something about um how she feels no it was do you ever question the nature of your reality wow yeah so if the Androids had the question
to had the ability to question the nature of their reality then they were on the edge of the technology inducing sension in the circuits as we supposedly have we supposedly have sension in our neurons in this case we're talking about senss in the circuit and when we begin to talk about the Men in Black and his towns in brown is his story a window into the world behind the curtain then the first question you have to ask yourself is to what extent are you willing to question
your reality and accept the possibility that the things that we're talking about are able to be conducted in a way that is completely opaque to the rest of humanity and it would seem that this is just the way that the government does business well there there is precedent for it that's called The Manhattan Project nobody knew that an atomic bomb was being developed until Harry Truman announced it in August of 1945 and then there's also DARPA all the things that
are going on there which I think are and I do make connections between brown and DARPA but I'll get to that in a second but before before you do let me let me just back up and add a little bit to to why we are invited to look behind this curtain and I I'll for the sake of our our our viewers and listeners I'll share the story of trying to get any information out of the Naval Research Labs about Browns time there now the expression that I learned from my covert sources who were
sort of leading me through the um the M shafts of this Rabbit Hole was that his records had been sheep dipped which was the The Spook way of saying that the records had been purged and cleaned now when I met Linda Brown in 2003 she brought me a couple of rubbermade tubs that had all of the the Brown family archives in them and in those archives I found correspondence between towns and brown and the Naval Research Labs some of it's on some of it's on towns and brown letterhead some
of it's on Naval Research Labs letterhead so I have this documentation so I filed a Freedom of Information Act request with the Naval Research labs and simply asked for any or all information that you can provide provide me about towns and brown service for the Naval Research labs in the 1930s in the period from 1933 to 1942 and the first answer I got back was never heard of the guy we are unable to find any reference to towns and brown anywhere in Naval Research records
and at the end of this first response it says you may appeal this request uh the time limit on the appeal you must provide the documentation so I made the photo copies of all the documentation and I sent it to the address where I could submit the appeal and a couple of months later I basically I'm paraphrasing here I got the reply back that said never heard of the guy don't ask again that's the answer everything you're thinking the answer is yes all right yeah so so um the
extent to which we can peer behind the curtain and see any glimmers that there's truth to the things that we're talking about extends in no small part to the extent to which you're willing to question the nature of your reality and how much of these Advanced Technologies already exist somewhere on Earth is that what we're seeing in all the reported sightings is some unknown force in control of it and trying to bring mankind to a point where we can use it and then it just
raises a lot of metaphysical questions that that challenge the imagination to put it mildly well I like to look at the observable facts so if we go back and look at Town's experience in the Navy and what happened after the Navy because he was asked to go investigate what were they called the Foo Fighters at the time yeah the alien um or UFOs anomalies uh that they saw in World War II and can you explain how that went down because it's almost unbelievable that in untrained you
know basically a nerd at a desk is going to be doing the things that he was doing so can you explain what happened we come to the period at the in the closing months of World War II we're into the the of 1944 and um the Allied Forces are are sweeping across Western Europe toward Germany and uh in the fall of 44 some of the the bomber Crews begin to observe this unexplainable phenomena in the now I don't think the expression UFOs existed yet that comes a little later but um they observe
these balls of light that seem to be under some kind of intelligent control that have the ability to come toward the aircraft the bombers that are flying over Germany uh fly along with them to some extent fly around them fly away from them fly back they seem to be under they don't seem to be random and they are um observed on many occasions I don't know what the actual number is I don't know if anybody knows a a lot of the response to that was you didn't see that but it is a commonly
accepted phenomenon that was observed and for whatever reason was given again I speculate in the book The numerous reasons why it was given the name Foo Fighters and yes if you're wondering the band Foo Fighters gets its name from that aerial phenomenon that was observed near the end of World War II so there is all kinds of Legend and War around um what Nazi Germany was experimenting with in the way of advanced Aviation and propulsion we certainly know they were light
years ahead of anybody with with simple propellant rocketry and that's one of one of the stories is they were determined to get to rer Von Braun before the Russians did and you probably know he was instrumental in the development of the Saturn rockets that took men to the Moon uh and and then there is speculation that they were involved in other more far more esoteric Technologies than simply rocketry um so the story is that uh Brown um where was he located he he's in California uh
and working still at the Vega aircraft plant in Burbank and when Franklin Roosevelt dies I can never remember I think it was April 12th 1945 there is a vacuum in the halls of power and and numerous forces that rush in to fill that vacuum and in that vacuum towns and brown was asked or assigned depending on who you ask to make the trip to Germany for on the surface to investigate the Foo Fighter phenomenon to see what he could find out about that and he was also engaged in some
of the other clandestine operations which were at work at the time one of them was the alsos program where uh uh American operatives were actively trying to find out uh where the Germans were in their atomic research and their atomic bomb development that was the alsos project um in um um I'm spacing on his name and it'll come back to me I'm sorry but the character the okay in one case I remember the character's name in the other case I remember the actor the character
that Casey Affleck plays in in Oppenheimer um he was actually in Char that that that General was in charge of the alos project and then came back in in the to America but um so there are a number of research projects scouring the the the French and German Countryside looking for German Technologies and the story is that sometime in April of 1945 Brown parachuted Behind Enemy Lines in Germany and became attached to one of these clandestine research teams and part of the teams
that were searching for German technology in terms of advanced Aviation science and also advanced intelligence and signals intelligence technology and so this is where the story becomes a little unbelievable where you have to read between the lines because he was never trained to be a a sky jumper he wasn't airborne and he was out of the Navy right he did have some military training because he had gone through basic training to be in the Navy but he was he was not what you would
what would you would consider he was by no means a special forces operative right so here he that might have been the one and only time he jumped out of an airplane this is where we have to kind of use our own judgment and say all right was he really out of the military maybe this is um like the movie True Lies he had another position that we don't know about he didn't just jump out with no training yeah and and from a low altitude which makes it all the more perilous and they didn't
just choose him to send him to his death they knew he could get it done yeah yeah so you look at that and then after this he starts becoming the person that they go to to inspect other UFO sightings and crashes yeah there's another famous one where he has first access to view the materials to which materials uh there's another famous crash around that time where that's a story that that that that did not there there are stories about Brown having access to materials of Unknown Origin and I I
didn't really only have direct access to those stories but I I see references to them from time to time so I'm not able to speak directly to those particular cases and there I think we're getting more into the 1950s than the 1940s and and there are no detailed records of what his activity was for as long as he was in Europe in in 19 in 1945 after this he now is in fact ated with UFOs right he starts studying them he even coins the term aial phenomena yeah that's that actually
yeah it's interesting to me that we now come back to the expression aerial phenomena because Brown used that phrase in the 1950s when he formed or was instrumental in the formation of one of the first citizen aerial phenomena research committees now now we're talking about something that forms around 1955 called naikap it's that's the national investigations committee on aerial phenomena now I can't tell you with any certainty when the the the term UFO first entered the vernacular
that's what we're talking about to me it's I find it curious for inexplicable reasons that after years and years of talking about UFOs is say no let's call them aerial phenomena but that's the expression that brown used to describe them and and the inference that we're circling here is that to whatever extent he became aware of these aerial phenomena he wanted to try to identify what technology propelled them and to see what he could maybe fathom that he might be able to like reverse
engineer from and whether it was associated with any of the technologies that he himself had explored in in the course of his research into the field that he called electrogravitics this now shapes his work because he comes with a a theory of how these machines surf the wave can you explain how he said that worked well um there there's a there's a couple of moving Parts there um and it has to do again I spoke earlier about the the distinction between the fluid dialectric
versus the solid dialectric so he was he was interested he he never liked to use the Expression um anti-gravity he was always curious about what he called stress in dielectrics that was the phrase that he used so he was interested in how the phenomena manifest in these dialectric devices and there are two kinds of dial electrics there's a fluid dialect electric which is something like air or water and then there's the solid dialectric when we started our conversation talking about
the Ionic Breeze Air Purifier which uses the beld brown effect to move air without any moving Parts it's it's the the difference between the the size and shape of the capacitors that's moving the air but the air is the fluid dialectric in that case um so when you're talking about surfing the wave we're talking I think about the fluid dialectric concept and where it has been speculated to be in use today is in the B2 bomber and and so there is a fair amount of conjecture and lore
on the internet that in and and it's a big part of some of uh uh Nick Brown Nick Cook's book on the subject that they did in fact use the bifel brown effect in the B2 bomber and so what we're suggesting is that remember the the basic premise was that in the Bill Brown effect the negative pole chases the positive pole the front wing of the bomber is charged positively and a negative cloud is generated in the exhaust and there's an apparatus that brown invented that helped with
that process as well so you have a negative Cloud behind chasing the positively charged and it creates the difference between the negative charge and the positive charge creates this electrostatic wave and and and the B2 bomber is effectively standing on that wave the way a surfboard stands on a wave of water and the speculation is that the B2 bomber can fly much more efficiently at very high altitudes where there's much less air to bite on the air the the curved surface of the air frame
because it has this other effect helping keep it a loft and I think one thing to mention about that B2 bomber that's interesting as well is that it was developed by DARPA with northr Grumman and yeah did northrope have any connection to towns and brown um okay I'm I you know it's all part of the same what Eisenhower called the military-industrial complex and um the the answer to your question is a qualified yes because northp Grumman was was primarily instrumental in
the development of the B2 bomber I'm not sure how we get from towns and Brown's demonstration for the Rand Corporation in the mid 1960s to that technology being handed off to northr Grumman but that's where the connection is I thought I read that Northrup bought Brown's company so everyone's got to really read your book to get the details on all this I be the first to admit that I tried to bring I'm not a train journalist but I understand because I've Seen All the President's Men so I
understand the basic precepts of investigative journalism that you have to have two sources before you can run with a story and I tried to verify the stories that were being given to me by the covert sources that were helping me unearth all this stuff but this is not verifiable Material the material has all been sheep dipped you go to the you go to the National Archives and there's no records of any of this stuff you file a fo request with the the Naval Research
labs when you have the documentation of the relationship and they say never heard of the guy don't ask again and and so I'd be the first to admit I reached my limit and I'd been working on the story for six years in 2009 and had written a 500 odd page first draft just dumping everything I could into it um and then when I went to begin to try to carve out a second draft I couldn't make sense any of the material and I ran screaming with my hair on fire out of the room for 13 years
that's why I want to you had all your hair at the time you should say that well yeah yeah you now you look like Larry David and Jerry Seinfeld combined I don't know how that happened okay but here's now what I want to ask have all their money here's what I want to ask because you bring up the secrecy about him um I even looked into this they said said in just in the year 2010 alone there were over 5,000 inventions that were held back because of the invention secrecy act meaning
that they were held by the government because they thought they had military application um which was obviously applied to Brown's work do you feel that he was part of the reason for the secrecy and he was working for the government working for these private um defense contractors and he's part of the reason why we have the secrecy act okay again you're your your the the um the premise to your question the prologue to your question is how far do you want to cross that line
where we question the nature of our reality and when when I Venture far enough across that line to offer an answer to your question then the answer that I come up with is my speculation that Townsen Brown was the Oppenheimer of the entire realm of black Government research projects Oppenheimer was focused on the one thing to develop the atomic bomb and you have kind of the model there for how a government can create a project and can and keep it a relative secret
within the realm of public knowledge and I I would offer the supposition the hypothesis that brown brown was the individual working at that level on a much broader scope of secret government projects and when you say there are thousands of projects that are withheld because of their potential military or national security applic I I would I would I would entertain the hypothesis that there is somebody who governs that whole process and for some time I think that could
have been towns and brown yes right because it started in 1951 he was working with them in 1951 maybe he knew the power of what he had was so immense that it had to be controlled and had to keep under reps and I think to Ty this all up I like that you mentioned how today we call it aial phenomena again because maybe what we're looking at is really just some of the evolution of towns and Brown's work and that's why they're around military bases and that's where
they go no these aren't UFOs yeah these are real phenomena these are ours okay so so so when we get to this part of the conversation I I I offer three explanations for these phenomena they are either visitations from elsewhere in the cosmos or they are our own technologies that are somehow getting out from under wraps or there's somebody coming from other period they are ourselves from other places in time take your pick now let's tie this all back to your theory that involves Pho
farnworth okay because to rip a hole or to be able to control time through gravity you would need really immense power yeah well so you you kind of made the jump there from controlling gravity to controlling time and that's the other connection between um general relativity and um and what brown was working on because when we spoke earlier about uh gravity being the effect of the curvature in space caused by the presence of large objects like planets and stars I misspoke because
the way Einstein put it in general relativity we are talking about the the interwoven fabric of the cosmos called space time so so we're not talking about simply a curvature in space but we're talking about the curvature in the SpaceTime Continuum and so now we're we're into an even farther reaching um realm of speculation where if you have the ability to control gravity you're in theory inducing some kind of AR artificial curvature and so if you if you can curve space you
can also curve time so we'll come back to that if necessary later that's where the that's where the the Curiosity about the potential for time travel comes in all this conversation but what you're referring to where I made the connection decided I had to run with this because I had the knowledge of these two lost Technologies and we only talked a little bit about the start about the thing that intrigued me the most when I first learned about pho Farnsworth yeah I was into television and I
was experimenting with alternate forms of video production but when I heard about the nuclear fusion work that was what got my attention and and um I'm sorry I don't have illustrations I can show you but they're all over the web he he was experimenting with a very for lack of a better desktop nuclear fusion he was talking about a a a reactor not much larger than a soccer ball that in his imagination would be able to produce megawatts of electricity there is a nuclear fusion
the prospect of something called direct conversion we're dealing with charged particles here and if you get enough of those charged particles and we're talking about billions or trillions of them they come off as electricity so this is not the kind of nuclear reactor where you're using the power of the atom the same way we use the power of coal where you're simply using it as a source of heat to boil water to create steam to spin a turbine to spin a generator
to generate electricity a fusion reactor has the ability to Simply produce electricity so My ultimate speculation is the towns and that Pho Farnsworth imagined his device that he called the fuser producing megawatts of electricity and then I make the connection between that and uh towns and Browns gravity control devices because they require extraordinarily high voltages at extremely low amperages and so my speculation is that what brown was looking for when he was
curious about aerial phenomena was he wanted to know what propelled them and I am offering the hypothesis that whether those craft are being developed in secrecy by people here on Earth or somebody somewhere else in the cosmos has figured this out that we are talking about Technologies based on the High voltages produced by nuclear fusion to produce an artificial gravity effect in something like Brown's gravitator so cool that's the connection between these two stories
that is the gift from the universe of magical things that's still waiting for human wits to get sharper before we're really going to give access to it um if it's out there we don't know well the universe has been around for 14 billion years somebody humans have walked the Earth for oh a 100,000 or so but it's only in the last 300 years that we have identified any of these magical forces starting with electricity in the in the N late 18th early 19th centuries that led
to the discovery of the weak and strong nuclear forces and I would argue that those Explorations kind of reached the limit of um I the higher power's willingness to share its information with us on August 6 1945 because I just saw what we did in Hiroshima and said okay if that's what you're gonna do with it that's enough you know there's there's a great L one of my favorite if if you saw the presentation that I did which I think I can release here in the next couple of weeks but the
presentation that I did for the cosmic sub my I keep coming back to Oppenheimer because it's it's really the most recent broadly popular exploration of what we're talking about here that force that binds all that binds the universe together and Mankind's uh um Native ability to begin to get a handle that there's a marvelous scene this time I remember uh both of the characters and actors names where it's the scene where Oppenheimer is wearing his uniform at Los Alamos because Leslie
Groves wants him to wear uniforms and be part of the military and he talking to the actor's name is I think David Crum Holtz and he's playing Isidor Robbie who was another theoretical physicist from this period and Oppenheimer is recruiting Robbie to come to Los Alamos and Robbie is saying that Oppenheimer is spread too thin and Oppenheimer draws on the chalkboard there's there's one thing here and one thing here and here's this and then there's theoretical here and that's when Robbie
says you're spread too thin and Oppenheimer turns to Robbie and says can you take theoretical and Robbie takes a long pause he takes a seat and he turns and he looks at Oppenheimer and he says very dramatically I'm not coming here Robert Oppenheimer pauses and says why not and he says when you drop a bomb that lands on the just as well as the unjust I don't want the culmin of 300 years of physics to be a weapon of mass destruction I'm offering a different culmination
of 300 years of physics and speculating that this species these Apes with nukes have got to get past what's holding us back before the higher intelligence governing our presence in the universe is going to let that out from under wraps what a great message and I think that's the best place to end it on thank you so much for sharing like I said I love this story both the stories are great I'm going to go back and read the pho book now but everybody should go get
the um the uh the the man who controlled gravity man who mastered gravity well we'll start with the boy who invented at television and then the man who mastered gravity and and I'll I'll I'll wrap up by saying that that what is compelling about these stories is that there are dimensions of them that regardless of my inability to verify the sources these are real people who did real things and some of their work remains with us the most obvious manifestation of which is
the fact that you and I are talking to each other right now through a video screen and everything that we're talking about started with the technology and the cosmology that gave us video yeah that's undeniable whatever else you want to say about all this off-the-wall speculative stuff the video is real and it started in the same place yeah it's all magic yeah it is a universe of magical things thank you yeah well thank you so much uh Paul really
appreciated that it's been great talking to you