The Secret of Skinwalker Ranch and the Future of Fringe Science - Saving the World S1/E18

Transcript

foreign [Applause] [Music] to another episode of saving the world podcast with Luke McMichael and Martin resni today we're going to be talking about some very interesting topics uh close to close to our hearts in many different ways um the secrets of Skinwalker Ranch is our main kind of review point for today it's a documentary about the area in Utah that has a significant history hundreds of years decades at least of scientific investigation and uh scientific let's just say Paranormal Activity of various kinds um and it's just going to start us on the topic of you know the role paranormal activity has or should have in today's world in the scientific world as well as in a world of uniting all Humanity together and saving the world in whatever way we can coming together to solve the biggest problems so that's uh we're going to talk about today uh Martin do you want to give us a quick intro on the secrets of Skinwalker Ranch or anything else you'd like to to jump into as we start right so the show uh is something that I think is a very interesting development uh and I'm saying it is somebody who was when I was growing up was watching X-Files and and all that stuff so I do have some knowledge of the let's say genre uh even though this particular genre is uh pretty broad between fiction and uh documentary depiction of reality and that was actually a point of my bachelor's thesis was uh trying to define the genre of a conspiracy documentary movie it's sort of related and uh as part of that I was actually going pretty deep into the differences between genres and some of these things are particularly difficult to Define in terms of what genre this is because uh there's always with these paranormal things there's a question of even if they call it reality show reality in quotation marks there's always the question of uh to what extent is it fiction to what extent is it documentary to what extent is it even something like mystification like something uh is it that's pretty big and was historically pretty big particularly in Czech culture and Czech Republic sort of before it was cool everywhere else uh in modern examples you could even sometimes expect or suspect I guess uh that's something like uh burat level mystification that there's like a person who's made up a character as their identity and uh is specifically doing nonsense to fool people into showing something or behaving in a particular way or trolling for sure so there's always a danger of that in the case of skinwork orange I think the interesting development is that uh they put the reality part of the reality show title and remove the quotation marks and are actually trying to depict reality and they even keep explaining specifically the extent to which what you see is not exactly what happened to make it clear that just how not very different what's depicted is from what actually happened sometimes it just sometimes what actually happens couldn't have been filmed properly uh the first time or something like that and uh when I say they what was most important is that the person in charge of the project is Travis Taylor who is an actual astrophysicist uh or yeah I think technically his main degree is in Optical physics and is the kind of person who create builds stuff engineering wise that goes into space and uh and it's it's a very credible person this is what's interesting in terms of his education his background his work and uh therefore it's somebody who definitely doesn't have any need to tarnish his reputation needlessly with something that's obvious BS and is not very likely to be engaging just in terms of his background uh it's not very likely to be engaging in mystification like intentionally misleading about anything and it really seems if you I've also watched not just the show but interviews with him specifically about the show and uh it really seems like uh when he's sort of explaining a bit of a like how the sausages made background in the interviews it really seems that like uh the only difference or the main difference between what you see on the show and what actually happens sometimes is that sometimes something even crazier happened that they weren't comfortable actually putting into the show rather than that it was really boring and they were making up stuff so it seems to be the opposite kind of problem where they try to hold back to not necessarily deter everybody from being potential future guests and helping them with the investigation in the future Travis Taylor specifically explained a couple of times so to get into the historical background a little bit it's not just that there have been Decades of Investigation already at this point by uh a prior group that was we had different owners different person in charge uh the person in charge of the initial investigation was Bigelow who is an aerospace billionaire uh or at least millionaire if I understand multi-millionaire if I understand it correctly and uh that investigation was more involved with let's say the intelligence community and it was more secretive about what was going on there although they didn't keep everything secret they did uh at various times publish various but mostly stories of what crazy stuff has happened they weren't so big in providing evidence for what they detected which is another way one other reason why I knew more open investigation that's actually showing all the data uh isn't it was needed and makes a lot of sense but before then it was owned by just regular people who were trying to raise some cattle and uh they were driven off at least based on that testimony they were driven off the property by the Paranormal Activity which included pretty much everything you can think of it's so much so that it's uh even if you were like making it up you probably wouldn't be making up something so diversely crazy uh rather like if you were making love you probably would be sticking to one flavor of for the Paranormal but uh there were UFOs and uh uh cattle mutilations which is I guess you would stay in this Lane if you were making this up but then there were portals opening and werewolf-like creatures jumping out of them and Poltergeist activity and uh objects the Poltergeist activity meaning specifically objects disappearing and reappearing at the places and times where it was basically impossible for them to get there and uh lots of uh weird visions and lights and lights having psychological effects and uh um one of the funnier things that happened with uh specifically Bulls was that at one point four big bulls were stacked on top of each each other into a locked trailer or compartment where it was essentially impossible for anybody to get them there that way without them being dead in the process uh somehow because otherwise cows or balls generally have a tendency to not want to be stacked on top of each other Tetris style in in tight compartments so a bit of a trickster element like at one point some of the earlier researchers reported hearing strange languages being spoken or or somebody communicating with them in an intelligible way but psychically and saying things like basically taunting them uh explaining that they're that the other force or whatever it is has the advantage they are saying something to that effect was the only intelligible communication that was reported I think with one of the Bigelow's researchers so all kinds of things and then in the show they also explain it actually goes into history like further back UFO sightings particularly in the Uintah Basin which is named after you the one of the Native American tribes in the area and there's a whole even older background specifically the area of with the area of skin worker range or which is pretty much in the middle of the general area of the Basin uh was that there was a feud between uh uh youths and navajos I think and that uh there was a skin worker curse put on the property by the navajos because youths were enslaving them with the help of the American government or something to that effect so that's pretty much as far as big as that goes even though of course local Native Americans have all kinds of their own Legends uh but that's generally considered just mythology of Porto's opening people traveling Between Worlds and stuff like that and there are some very old uh well what do you call it uh carvings in the stone stone reliefs uh in the area by which are hard to date how exactly old they are because you can't date stone could be thousands of years even uh definitely many hundreds of years and uh which depicts the strange uh things depicted in the sky between the stars and so there's everything for a very long time as far as the recorded history goes uh a lot of all kinds of like witchcraft curses aliens UFOs portals you name it and the to just concluded the introduction the show right now is uh it's been the the property was uh bought by a new person some kind of property developer uh who's presumably very interested in this kind of stuff so they decided to do the show in part to help fund the research so whatever they're getting from making the show is uh in large part supposed to allow them to do it in the first place and uh they're doing and I'm using all kinds of weird Advanced measuring devices all around the range including uh digging this whole thing with digging let's get maybe getting into later but uh doing all kinds of Investigations above the above the ground beneath the ground on the ground and uh showing everything that happens or like I said well not everything uh not everything they managed to document and some maybe it's too crazy a little bit even for them to just say that it happened but they tried a whole bunch of stuff and uh in the three seasons of the show so far a lot of super weird things was actually recorded and it's almost constant that something's happening there which again is not even normal of the shows where they're making it up so like like ghost hunters or something they would go downstairs would like run somewhere and be like uh oh there maybe was a person died here 10 years ago and they're listening for Electro Voice phenomenon and then nothing happens and that's like maybe the episode so again if you were making it up you probably wouldn't be so bold in lying is my opinion so that's the show and the range and the mythology of it that's a really good uh that's a really good summary Martin so so let me just throw I'm gonna try to play the skeptic role today because that's definitely a little more of my my take on paranormal stuff in general so watching the show um I I liked it was interesting there's definitely lots of parts that because they're trying to be so scientific and they're trying to prove that it's not just like Martin said it's not just uh you know fiction that they're making up or they're overacting they're really trying to kind of do it like scientists and in some ways it's almost a little boring you have to kind of fast forward certain areas I definitely fast forwarded a fair bit of where it got a little slow sometimes um so it's it's hard to in some ways it's a good thing because it kind of gives it a little more you know truth perhaps but in other ways it's not not great for storytelling it's not great for entertainment value in some ways so it's it's kind of like they're shooting themselves in the foot in some ways um but but then from the skeptic side is you kind of Wonder Maybe they're doing that you know just to try to kind of get in on the true side you know maybe they're trying to do all these things how do we convince people you know while still having a flare fantasy and and you know they're trying to find a new way to hoax people you know like a scientific way and we have to have all these scientific things because all the past hoaxes never worked the Ghost Hunter things The X-Files in some ways was very popular but I think most people realize that a good chunk of that is probably not true um you know it's it's kind of fantasy so I guess this is kind of a really interesting show where it's trying to you know change that line somehow and again whether it's actually happening or not I I have no way of knowing for sure I don't think anyone can know for sure 100 that they're you know telling the truth with all this stuff and I'd like to think that they are um you know I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt that this stuff is happening the really interesting thing the two that I found from from the skeptic point of view is is very little of what was happening was duplicatable or you know like they could they could prove it like they would get these weird readings or this weird one thing would happen or they get a weird light in the sky but then it wouldn't happen again you know I guess I guess that's a good point to get into patterns because there were some things that tended to repeat and they were pretty excited about it because precisely in this field the application is a big problem because there's a whole theory that even if those things are real there might be a reason why they know don't know don't exactly do the same thing twice ever because you can have a real phenomenon that's changing up what it's doing that's if it's in intelligence intelligence is adaptive doesn't have to be a dumb phenomenon where you do an input and same output always happens intelligence can mix things up but the one of the big interesting ones was that every time they shoot up Rockets into an anomaly that they found in the air through their measuring instruments every time a UFO appears and I can assure you that's the most replicated UFO sighting ever in the history of all paranormal investigation you normally are not supposed to be able to do that that's a kind of a big yeah so given the benefit of the doubt for now anyway let's assume that they're actually telling the truth and all this stuff is actually happening you know like they're saying um it's pretty it's pretty big it's pretty it's a pretty massive thing and I would think that you know more people would get involved more governments would come in there and you know they get more funding and really try to figure out make some kind of contact with these aliens or these UFOs in some way that would be amazing like that would be absolutely amazing probably possibly what they're trying to be negotiating for future development of the show uh they definitely did talk and that's why I think it's also important to look at the interviews uh specifically of Travis Taylor about the show because you get the broader understanding of what they were doing actually yeah exactly and one of those things is that they are I think currently in the process of negotiating some Advanced genuine satellite survey of the area where you would need like government level resources to be able to pull that off and uh also they did one of the episodes of the show they did notice that some sort of government surveying plane was flying over the area unscheduled and was trying not to be noticed uh and so that's it's very very likely that they are being observed and they thought for sure that they are we monitored I really wonder what it would take you know like what kind of proof is actually beyond a shadow of Reasonable Doubt would would it take for the entire entire world to kind of accept it or like say 90 of the world to accept it yeah that's true that's actually happening it's not fantasy it's not falsified you know fiction or whatever I guess I guess you could like normal scientists like Travis Taylor's philosophy and he was explaining it on the interviews specifically what his philosophy is about this his philosophy is that but I guess he has the motto on the show that his mother used to say that uh uh Hornet's Nest isn't interesting uh until you poke it it's a pretty pretty uh wild attitude actually but uh I guess for a scientists can lead you to discover something so for him it is like an adventure uh that is a dangerous thing that sometimes feels terribly dangerous as you're doing it but uh it's kind of at the price you have to pay for having a chance of discovering something new because his philosophy is that if you have all these data points because a normal scientist even skeptical scientist shouldn't be denying repeated measurements uh in that because then at that point you kind of have to do and I guess some ethics did do it with the when the pilots the Navy Pilots were explaining lately their UFO encounter the one that everybody keeps talking about still two years later uh so they assumed some of the Skeptics pretty much said that they don't believe all of the Native Pilots that you have to assume that yeah a whole boatload of uh expert military people is just lying about at some point because at some point you kind of cannot deny that measurements have been made and then the question really is what it would take to put skeptical people to accept that it is a proof of something in particular is I think the more important question once you get over these like we kind of have to give them the benefit of the doubt if it's a credit accredited scientist doing uh research and uh it doesn't show any obvious signs of lying and there's no reason to lie uh so you kind of have to accept that the data exit when there's so much documentation you kind of have to accept that the data exists and then the question is what is is it a sign of and many Skeptics seem to have a an intuition that they keep acting upon that because the data doesn't fit into any the existing models of physics therefore there must be some kind of mistake that the data can possibly be interpreted correctly or measured correctly even if people are honest who are involved in the research there must be some sort of interference that if you actually understood what it is you would understand that oh and nothing unusual is actually here but some of the data that Travis Taylor keeps saying on the show just doesn't make sense and have any explanation like when you measure a certain level of uh uh what do you what is it specifically that they measured microwaves like specific level of microwaves at the particular location has no way to be generated and then okay but I can still do triangulation and they triangulate it from multiple points they figure out where it's coming from and it's like a mile above the property which there's obviously nothing there so how is a source there is something that you can't explain and from the point of view of Travis Taylor the key thing is okay so if there is data Anonymous data that uh is outside of our current models then perhaps we have more science to do so the question is I think you would have to figure out a theoretical model on the basis of the data that actually puts the data into context and is an explanation of what physics this is yeah I think that the best kind of reasonable explanation I I can do it again speaking is kind of a skeptic that's just assuming that they're telling the truth and that you know for now anyway unless we can prove otherwise for assuming that everything in the show is relatively true um you know the only the best example I can come up with is is there's some kind of you know testing Zone that are UFO some kind of cloaked U.S UFO is there kind of testing this area for various kinds of things you know with their United Federation of planets and and there's something going on in this area that basically and they came to save the whales perhaps it's something like that like that's the only explanation I can come up with watching the show there's got to be some kind of UFO there that's it it's completely you know not allowed to make contact directly but it's still kind of there watching humanity and this happens to be the spot that they came down and that's their posting essentially they're not allowed to go anywhere else this is their you know the area that they're basically allowed to do their their research from their own and maybe it's even some kind of parallel dimension in some way or that's the theory of Travis Taylor I guess theory is hypothesis it's not the established scientific theory so that there aren't Skeptics jumping on what I just said and saying but that's not Theory hypothesis yes it's I mean hypothesis so his hypothesis is the there could be some kind of Wormhole and which would explain why it can't move he even found sort of that the location is interesting Geographic uh geographically in that skin worker range is exactly in the middle of a basin which is shaped shaped as a satellite dish so maybe it's just a focusing point that the geography is actually kind of a generator for the phenomenon even like in that case it could be natural like it's just the geography could be naturally concentrating energies in a particular way that creates something even if it was a wormhole it could be naturally occurring because just the geography is causing it so if it's a wormhole it would explain why it can't move somewhere else it would also explain why we can't just see it or easily detect it I think the closest he got to what would you would take to detect it was in the episode where okay so maybe it would be it would be a gravitational anomaly so it would be warping the background the stars in the background much like uh the relativity was actually proven by a sun during an eclipse you could see the stars being warped by the gravitational field of the Sun so so this kind of thing and so he invited the three local astronomers with Advanced gear and then their gear kept specifically malfunctioning so that they can't record anything through the portion of the sky that's too normally uh to an extent that they claim specific stars were being deleted one by one from the memory of the devices as they were trying to focus on them through the anomaly even if they could focus on their moments before when the stars were outside of the anomaly so that's one of the best I think tests that was a template and this sort of crazy way in which it was thwarted would be even suggesting if there were some intelligent countermeasures that like yeah maybe that was exactly the test that would have worked and that's why it would be so specifically prevented from working in that case uh it could be either into a different point of space to space or what could be a connection to a different point in time or to a parallel universe like then then the options because of our lack of unproper understanding of such Advanced physics it's still super open what what would it be but if it's a wormhole that requires the geography to be generated then that's a pretty solid hypothesis why it would be there and why it would have to stay there and just be have to be a resisting attempts at being probed yeah it's in some ways it's kind of very similar to the um the cartoon Gravity Falls I don't know if we've talked about it yeah it's kind of like a real world Gravity Falls in some in some small way for anyone who's who hasn't watched that show go check it out it's on Disney plus it's awesome let's hope that the entity behind it isn't Bill Cipher I don't think we haven't got anything quite that far yet obviously but uh but it's getting to the point where we just don't know and it it almost makes you want to hope that they're just making it up and that's the funny thing because it's kind of scary if they're not in some ways and it it does make you wonder that if any of these things actually do break open if we do ever actually open that door to see what's on the other side then somebody comes pouring through and takes over the world and says okay you're no longer protected by the prime directive now that you know maybe maybe there is a Cthulhu at the other side or something like that's it's sort of interesting as an experiment like the show as an experiment in what the civilization does it basically make a TV show that is probing like a poking katula was asleep or something this is a TV show it's sort of a thing that's almost like Rick and Morty style of of of craziness if it turns out to be anything like that although I think it is a great sign that it's not killing people yeah it clearly has the capacity if there is an intelligence and what they're saying is happening is happening then if and some of those things that happen to them that even got them hospitalized were attacks it seems that the attacks were calibrated so that they don't kill just try to scare off just try to warn them away and saying you can't know what we're doing here it's it's important that you don't find out about us back off a little bit but it is it is interesting so let's let's change gears for a little bit so I really kind of want to open this discussion to almost all kind of paranormal let's say research or scientific um paranormal what's the word you use paranormal investigators investigations if you want to speak generally yeah so I think this is definitely an area that we need a very specific part of our truth work site maybe for trying to analyze which paranormal investigations are kind of I guess good or truthful and which are kind of um you know maybe falsified or fantasized a little bit more or fictionalized a little bit more just to kind of get attention right and there's definitely a monetary incentive for many of these paranormal investigators to you know um make up the results or or at least balloon up the results to get more attention because they get more funding and and you know I I I'm kind of reminded a little bit about this billion dollar lawsuit I don't know if you're familiar with what happened a couple weeks ago um one of these guys I can't remember name uh it was for the uh he was trying to it was the hoax of all the people that they were saying that they um their their kids didn't actually get shot it was it was a school massacre I think it was Sandy oh Sandy Hook right uh what's the name of the person Infamous yeah I'm sure everybody knows I I can't think of them right now but anyway it was huge news it was huge news just a couple of weeks ago uh where he had a billion dollar lawsuit and and the plaintiff's won saying that the stuff he was making up was clearly false it was clearly you know I uh not true in any way and it was it was uh libel or slander um and so from the same kind of perspective you know the Paranormal people who are kind of staying things are true and kind of you know getting tons of money from people um on a similar level like if you can kind of prove that they're making it up or prove that it's not true and they're essentially stealing money from people then that's kind of a you know a potential way of combating some of the falsities sure but I would just like to demystify this whole thing a little bit uh it isn't that complicated it's there was a lot of language specifically devised around this issue by skip ethics but I don't think necessarily to clarify it uh I think there was a lot of biased language invented and a lot of double standards invented when all you needed were the original standard for everything uh and the original standard is don't lie exactly it's quite simple like we can say simply we have Liars who lie who make counterfactual claims and I think the issue I got in the Paranormal Arena and I will be using quotation marks a lot when I'm discussing these terms because none of these terms are good is one of my arguments in the my upcoming book which is about astrology but I do have a whole chapter I guess couple of chapters about the disambiguation of terms like Supernatural like Paranormal like uh you can even have the variations of like a proto-scientific pseudoscientific all these words and how none of them have good definitions uh including if you just start the first double standard that makes it seem like this is something different than usual science uh is the Carlos Sagan's motto of extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence the problem is he didn't Define what extraordinary means and nobody can satisfyingly define extraordinary in a way that's not biased this is my argument and not just mine you can find analysis on the Internet by various Scholars who some of which I have quoted in the book who already are explaining it that uh this issue is uh needlessly over complicating and obfuscating what's actually going on here what's actually going on here uh what Travis teller is doing in his own mind is just a scientific investigation in science there's always something that's beyond our current science and one of the best ways always to try to expand science move it forward is to find an anomaly something that doesn't behave according to the uh currently defined rules and be poking it and then maybe you'll get some data that will give you some idea how to formulate an update of the theory that would probably not completely invalidate everything that's been established before but just like shift the perspective so suddenly different mathematics makes different sense of the whole thing and it's like Newtonian physics versus relativistic physics relativistic physics puts things into a completely different context but Newtonian physics within their own context still work and are still being used for basic stuff so when you say paranormal what does that mean in science uh the science Skeptics could say that paranormal claims are those extraordinary claims and so you need not just the normal level of evidence but that's the problem in science the scientific motto is claims require evidence there is no extraordinary in there because extraordinary is a perspective is a point of view it's a subjective qualitative judgment about things you think personally are more outlandished on other things and there's always somebody who dislikes it so paranormal doesn't really help as a term it's uh maybe some a word that will be actually scientific word would be an objective term that describes something objectively without any bias included and in this case I really think it's more like anomalous is the term anomaly is an objectively a definable thing in science anomaly is something that objectively you can demonstrate is happening that doesn't fit into your existing scientific model and there's every legitimate reason in science to study anomalies I think it's the correct language that people should be using about this I agree 100 I and I I think the reason I get back to the Sandy uh Sandy Hook thing so I think the reason that's interesting is that if you can apply that same kind of logic towards you know science and you know let's just call fraudulent scientists who are pushing their own clearly false things or provably false things um for their own personal agenda or their own personal you know money and if we can kind of make more examples like that Sandy Hook thing out of the fraudulent guys people who can be provably fraudulent then maybe we can kind of start to develop more trust in the actual truthful investigators because the fraudulent ones are all either going to jail or paying billion dollar fines you know more often than not so it's less incentivized to lie sure uh I think that just the issue is just how much bias and uh how I would put it uh spiritual Stakes there are in this whole situation for everybody involved because for some people if you're a Believer then this thing if it's real could be demons it's a little bit of a joke in this sort of paranormal investigator community that everything is demons yeah but uh you don't really know like uh unless until you sufficiently scientifically explain everything about or most things about the phenomenon uh even while factoring in that if it's an intelligence it could be deceiving you and it could be manufacturing evidence for you to think to arrive at the wrong conclusion about it so there are some people who just don't want these things to be poked for reasons that are fundamentally not just unscientific but in this particular case anti-scientific so there are some people who just don't want these things to be investigated some people who even would be inclined to investigate them but would have 100 uh preconceived notion of what these things must be or can't be and I think Skeptics uh fall into this category uh by and large is that they have very strong biases that they don't want to acknowledge our biases they just want to say no that's just scientific understanding what I have it's just objective rational reasonable thinking that I will now proceed to defend using logical fallacies uh it's usually how the discussion goes so there's a lot of uh people with uh scientistic is the term bias that it's uh they claim what they have is just science but it's clearly reaching beyond what just science is are going sometimes again specifically what science requires and then to the religious people with the whole demon thing but then you have people who are the government and that's a power element it's like okay so wait a minute if this is real I want to control it and I don't want anybody else to have that power and in this case knowledge is power because if you understand through data formulated theory of wormholes and they figure out not just that this is a wormhole but how exactly hormones work that's a pretty pretty Advanced knowledge on a pretty high level of power if you can Master it for yourself somehow so you have these various groups with conflicting interest uh that's uh for different reasons uh end up doing similar effects on the discourse and they're just toxifying the discourse doing a lot of personal attacks uh doing like in the case of the intelligence community and governments releasing this information to intentionally Cloud the issue with uh that there's some data that's true so one of the ways to prevent people to be able to formulate a good theory is to release a lot more data that's untrue and uh that's completely confuses the situation and there's a good evidence to suggest that there have been uh all kinds of the wrong things being done like uh Skeptics basically doing a Witch Hunt on a person who was a legitimate investigator intelligence Community releasing misinformation or disinformation to so that nobody really knows what even happened let alone what it means religious people who were hoarding evidence of something that goes against their belief or destroying it so that their belief doesn't get challenged or cannot be effectively challenged uh there's like a big question of what are all of the things that Catholic church has in its archives that they keep secrets because they have every motivation if they've ever found evidence of anything and they for a very long time historically but in a great position to acquire a lot of artifacts and uh Forbidden Knowledge let's say and they have a lot of motivation to keep something secret forever although in their case it probably wouldn't destroy their like bit on the hoarder side but uh it's like an open question and then you have investigators who in this in this field who find connections between like us so there's a super spiritual which he plays According to some local Native American people and the Catholic church has built an observatory there and they've instead of finding these like connections like why would they do it specifically unless they bought into that there's something going on and maybe we're doing their own version of skinwalk arrange before so you have all these like you have secrecy you have raging personal bias you have people who are outright anti-scientific and so I'm being Bewitched at this moment probably because I've talked too much about it just a second so you have all of this and that's the real problem if people were just normally not just reasonable but if people were not particularly caring about the outcomes here about situations like this then there you could relatively easily fix the discourse yeah but the the issue is all of the actors who intentionally don't want the discourse to be fixed here and that's not just the conspiracy theory I can find million historical examples of somebody doing something in this area that wasn't constructed okay I like it I like it I like where we're headed here Martin so I think again the real trick for us here as part of our truth Works program because I really think this fits in as one of the big Pillars of Truth works and getting our truth tellers or our Specialists or let's just call them unbiased investigators perhaps um that have no you know Financial connection whether something is right or wrong they don't get paid more or less either way um you know and that they're unbiased in a way of they could tell us okay based on our expert unbiased opinion this particular line of study is completely false or this particular principle let's just let's just throw flat out there as an example you know I think the vast majority say 98 maybe even 99.9 of actual scientists agree that the Earth is around you know and that all any of the the logic or conspiracy around flatter Theory it's I mean forgive me if you're a flatter Theory I don't imagine there's many flatters watching this but it's a bunch of garbage it's a bunch of total BS right and I guess I think probably the best example we have for a large you know hundreds of thousands of people worldwide that make money obviously making others that the Earth is flat um you know based on all these different theories and I think that's probably one of the worst possible conspiracies we have today um what would you agree what do you think about that I did a couple of points that I wouldn't necessarily 100 agree on it's not the worst because it doesn't have effects it's sort of overblown in like how dangerous it is because it's not particularly dangerous like there's no yes it will be that going to cause effects whereas there are hoaxes that have effects or lies that in signs that have effects like for example there was this guy who uh did the study that demonstrated uh that uh vaccines cause autism in children and that was total BS and that has you know had real world results I think the main that's there was sort of the main defender on the side of science the main defender of uh let's say out of the box thinking was Paul fire Aben was a philosopher of science who wrote a very good book which I definitely recommend called against the method and that's the best sort of uh let's say criticism of the scientific method from a scientific standpoint that exists and he was so good in his arguments against uh some of the established let's say scientific intuitions that the main counter criticism against him from the side of ethics mainly was that like hey Paul could you please like dial it back a little bit because people stop believing in science and specifically with the effect of that it can lead for example to people who then don't vaccinate and that leads to Deaths so there's this effect chain of logic in this case is this one I agree I agree so let me rephrase what I meant what I meant by worst was I meant that it's probably the most prevalent that has absolutely zero you know reasonable way of believing it you know at least with the vaccines and all the anti-vaxxers you can kind of understand that yeah they're kind of scared about pumping crap in their body they don't necessarily know so I can kind of understand from some extent you know why they're doing what they're doing but from the Flat Earth Day Theory it's really it's really hard to understand why they even care and I think I feel like the whole flat earther stuff is really like you said it's some kind of governmental conspiracy to make all these other conspiracies seem you know more and more real and just that's another part of it that I have to sort of I guess object to a little bit uh and there might be every chance that some government is fueling it for some reasons like that but in this particular case uh there isn't actually a great explanation of why government would be involved in this in particular that government has better reasons to be involved in some other hoaxes but uh in this case it's also the main point of objection actually is that you can have pretty smart Arguments for flutter the issue is that uh people can be convinced if if you're following uh some sort of logic uh I have to explain it properly the person who started the whole thing I don't remember his name but the person who started the Flat Earth thing was a bit it was a very good debater and uh he was able to use a brush a lot of rational logically not paradoxical arguments that are convincing if you're convinced by something that's logical and you just can't think of why it's not true and uh in this case where it fails is that you can do countless experiments that immediately prove that the Earth is round and uh the the real issue is people who this is not really that surprising that there will be people who would be persuaded by the logic of some of the arguments against roundness of the earth especially if you're a suspicious type and you don't believe the government's in NASA and other people who you if they show you a picture around the earth you wouldn't believe it at that point uh if you're rejecting evidence is this the problem and uh in the case of of this particular Theory and I guess any Theory including anything that's paranormal the real sticking point is the experiment it's not really the logic you can whip up a logic that sounds convincing about any position or any potentiality or any possibility of anything the thing that settles it are experiments and so you have to be able to do an experiment that actually provides proof or rules something out and do it in a way that people will trust so there's a additional issue of trust in the institution because when you're for example the Skeptics uh especially UFO Skeptics and there has been always a ton of evidence since the 40s that something's going on and you were ignoring all of that evidence that clearly exists demonstrably even to a point where you can't even hack Wikipedia to not report on some event or incidents taking place because it's so definitely took place you just have to keep saying about all of these 100 of incidents every time everybody was mistaken about every aspect of what happened pretty much where everybody was lying and then that's unreasonable so if you're doing this in areas like ufology or astrology or cryptozoology where in all of these areas there was some evidence of something at some point that you shouldn't be just throwing out uh if you're being fair then the people who are on the side of the sort of paranormal investigations are they like I want to believe mother types uh if I were to quote X-Files so if there was like I want to believe people who serve the Counterpoint to Skeptics who can also be reasonable just they have our own opposite bias so uh they didn't see that and then they by extension won't trust any governmental institutions or any official academic institutions because they see that the people who are the linchpins in the particular area of Interest are full of so they assume that even everything else that's been proven by Associated people from the Academia is all questionable and then if you have a bunch of people who don't believe each other's evidence like in this case you have the skinwalker range and they're claiming showing look we have all of this evidence and if you don't accept that the evidence exists then again nobody can move forward because they're doing the most they can do you can't do more than actual on location experimentation and refining your hypothesis trying again to get repeatable results that's the only thing that science tells you you're supposed to do so I think overall ultimately it's more an issue of uh trust in evidence okay all right so this is this is this is good we're getting somewhere so what I would love to see at some point in the future and I'm not sure how we could start it or evolve it but I would like to see kind of a categorized classification of all the different Paranormal Activity and all the different let's just say potential hoaxes in the world like the biggest ones you know choose your top ten just like we chose our top 10 truth tellers and our top 10 questions we kind of have another section for you know paranormal and or hoax uh and conspiracy theory type stuff and each one of the truth tellers from all their different backgrounds and all the variety again maybe the ones with more expertise and certain things would have more weight but they would at least get a chance to say you know at what level would they trust this particular study or this particular person to be telling the truth and and like you said that's the key question we're asking are they lying are they just outright lying to make money or are they actually an honest person trying to make the world a better place by telling the truth and that's really the main point of Our Truth teller site is to try to categorize what percentage do we think that this is actually true and maybe it's 80 maybe it's 50 maybe that's that's uh two responses First Response that's pretty much exactly what I did myself when I had a seminar last time about conspiracies and misinformation and stuff doing this scale from most likely to be complete business to very good chance it's actually real but all that's controversial so yeah that's a good exercise uh generally speaking but also there's a bit of a conflation of two things there uh it's that the fact that the person is being truthful doesn't mean that what they're saying is true there's a second step it is also likelihood of the thing that they honestly believe their honest interpretation that it's valid so it's it's of a more step more of a steps in the process but I guess the most important one ultimately is the first one if you believe them at all that they're trying honestly to yeah like if what they're saying is data that actually was measured and without being without leaving out a lot of stuff because there's a lot of ways the Skeptics would usually uh go berserk about these things uh if that's somebody's claiming that they've proven something that they don't like then they would look into everything which I guess sure it's good that somebody should probably do it but they're oftentimes it seems looking into it to just find the one way that causes doubt and they don't keep looking to exhaustively go through everything and so you get things like okay maybe it was an erroring measurement or maybe they just misinterpreted the data data should be interpreted in a different way or maybe they're being dishonest or maybe there's a conflict of interest so even though we can't prove that they've fudged it or Faked it uh there's some adjacent reason to maybe assume that they would have motivation for that and they just go through any any possible thing to to criticize until they find something that looks negative like with the to give you an example from a different field like with bubblazar uh one of a lot of the first attacks on his crazy credibility is uh whistleblower allegedly is a whistleblower who was part of some sort of a UFO reverse engineering government black program and uh the first thing that everybody attacked was his credentials that he didn't really study where he studied or then later Second Step was that he didn't work uh at the institution at all in any capacity uh which are like if you're being a little bit uh Mulder agent model like you can think of very quickly that but yeah those are the first two things that the government could scrub from the record so that's like really that shouldn't be the big proof uh point in this debate because obviously that could be manipulated but many Skeptics just got to that point point that was the first point where there was something potentially suspicious and they were like that's enough for me I found my reason why this is BS and I'm not going to investigate so there has to be if there's like a truth teller doing some sort of uh evaluation the evaluation instead of some sort of thorough standard so that it's not uh Cherry Picked just something or just done until a point when you find the first potential problem there could be some justification in science in that you could say one thing can falsify a theory like if there's one problem that's incompatible with the theory but uh if you assume that you can be wrong about any one point in your interpretation or assessment of it or any one point could have been manipulated you probably still should aim for what's called a meta-analysis which means that you really go through multiple different assessments of multiple different things and then you draw a statistical conclusion from all the data well I think the key concept there is that there's always a chance that the Skeptics themselves could be lying because you know for internal motives because they want to be a skeptic and they want they want to be respected as a skeptic so they might kind of make up some counter evidence in some cases or or you know stretch the truth on their own in their own way so you're right you do need that kind of meta analysis where enough people enough truth tellers you know are kind of looking at it from enough different angles that we're getting kind of a good overall you know percentage of How likely this is to be true and I think if as long as we keep an open mind worldwide that we just understand that yeah maybe there are UFOs maybe there are portals popping open maybe there's ghosts maybe maybe there's climate change is real maybe the world is is flat around but the point is nothing's a hundred percent in any way and you know and as we if we have that open mind then at least we can look at it that and we can kind of um classify it and evaluate it with that open mind without the uh without the bias it's it's really if I were to if I were trying to explain it quickly and and simply I think the bias what it does with the discourse is that it tries to many people try to code People based on what camp they fall in and treat them differently from people from another camp and uh it could be doing it any which direction but the issue is in reality it's not that complicated it's just people who are lying are the problem it's not a very difficult concept and charlatan it's like charlatans don't fall just into the astrologer Camp charlatan can fall into any Camp because I guess spoiler alert charlatan can pretend to be anybody and pretends to be actually doing anything that they're not actually doing like you can have a Charlotte and skeptic very easily you can have a charlatan doctor it's a whole category a quack doctor like the fact the fact that there are quack doctors or charlatans among doctors doesn't mean that doctors don't exist uh it's it's like sort of a too if you just kept assuming that because some astrologers are charlatans therefore there wouldn't be anything as a real astrologer in that sense the astrology isn't that real thing to do so that's one thing and also any agent could be anybody an agent who's sort of secretly has a secret agenda is manipulating the situation also could be pretending to be anybody from from any camp and historically you find examples of agent likely agents and or charlatans among scientists amongst among the apologies among astrologists among anybody because it's just or one thing there aren't multiple standards there aren't multiple groups of people they're just people and people can it be truthful or they could be lying and so it's not that complicated that's yeah that's the nails on the head right there so the main goal of the truth Works movement is to expose charlatans and expose you know agents let's just say that are not telling the truth for their own purposes and that's kind of the charlatans kind of fit in the same category so let's we just want to classify them all as charlatans we need to expose charlatans to save the world I think that's a pretty good statement like if we're going to save the world we we must have a society that works to expose charlatans and lies as much as possible and as well as possible um yeah intelligence agencies are not going to like this one they won't they won't but but I'm hoping that they'll realize it's necessary if we're going to solve these problems like climate change and like poverty and and and crime and world war three world war three being the big one we have to explode expose charlatans we have to get to the truth somehow yeah yeah we don't have to explode them that would be uh we must expose Charlton so so I like it um let's let's work on that a little bit though I'll maybe come up with a with a template for next time um that this might be something good for next week if you think you're ready for it is uh maybe send me a link to what you've done in the past as far as trying to categorize it and trying to find methods to expose the lives but if I have the presentation still but I can definitely just uh try a new and uh just can work shopping part of the the episode that'll be a lot of fun and I think I think again if we can find that the majority of Truth tellers agree that these types of things are lies or are done by charlatans and we can kind of see over time you know the vast majority of people agree then it definitely opens the door to potential lawsuits against them make them pay a billion dollars for the crime again another question what do you want to do about them and I think always when you say something like this there's a specific parallel to what Skeptics are proposing to do about charlatans as they view them and uh there is one thing like they would put make uh something like astrology illegal but I think if you understand that the charlatan could be person in any field then uh it's not you can't easily just forbid Fields you could maybe say that uh the again real world examples if somebody has some sort of level of authority that's uh well he's supposed to be telling the truth about something but we find out that he didn't attack in science it's fairly simple if you're a doctor medical doctor who have a medical doctor qualification and you do a charlatan thing like the person who did the autism vaccines study that well again I have to put quotation marks then they lose their status they don't have to be necessarily exploded like put into a cannon and shot into the sun uh they just need to lose the authority that they are wielding where in like in which we share basically it's an abusive power is what that is you have to take away a power that the person is abusing from them that's again a super if somebody's a politician and is embezzling then of course they need to stop being a politician uh at the very least like you don't even necessarily because as a whole Anarchist libertarian debate about prisons and like how punishments should work against that but if you even ignore that like just at the very least everybody probably should agree who's a reasonable unbiased actor that if somebody is uh wielding a scientific Authority or a political Authority or uh you know any kind of authority uh could be an employer in terms of like an economic Authority yeah and if they're clearly abusing it uh which in the media sphere means lying about stuff because there's a very it's a very it's a very different if a person is mistaken that's an entirely different situation than if a person is lying and many of the people even if you could say a whole field Like A Flat Earth theory you can all the quotation marks if the if that field as such uh is 100 wrong or as close to like 99.99 not accurate in this universe then still it matters like the person who's part of it is misled or mis like misunderstood something and uh misrepresented something misinterpreted something and it's just mistaken it's entirely different what you should do about that person versus a person who's uh a charlatan or an agent who just cynically knowingly lies and misleads people and manipulates because like those people are of the problem those are the they use a Biblical metaphor like those are snakes in the garden that's the thing that that causes the trouble in Paradise and again I think that perfect example is the Sandy Hook example where the guy was just literally doing it to make money and it was clear he was lying and and hurting people's lives because of that yeah even though like Alex Jones is an interesting example because it is kind of a linchpin example in that uh he's the one that was I think de-platformed first uh and the one who was hit with uh uh fine this High first first and I think the issue is even in this case it's a bit more complex because there are many people who do talk to him like uh or would talk to him like uh I like uh like Joe Rogan or Lex Friedman or like this that sort of group of people and he's sort of a semi-friend to some of them personally personal friend and uh the issue there is he was right about some stuff it wasn't like this whole career he wasn't entirely disingenuous he even he was partially doing it for the money in some cases and the Sandy Hook is probably him knowing that he did wrong uh intentionally but there were also other cases like he was very ahead on the whole Epstein Scandal thing because he was very open to such horrific things being possibly true and motivated to try to investigate wrongdoings of such like rich people so because he clearly wasn't paid by rich people to be confusing things and be covering things up so even then even in that case it's maybe not so binary as in like uh necessarily it's not binary in that like a person is 100 a charlatan slash agent or 100 just uh misinterpreting things or 100 just true about stuff you will find people who can be true about the part of stuff because that's like the within a person you have different biases different motivations different goals and agendas so part of what you're doing could be honest part of what you're doing could be I'm honest and true but could be honest and misled in Parts could be uh disingenuous and lying so I think in there one of the important things that I think you need is Nuance because if you just didn't like the Skeptics last let's just burn all the witches they said let's just throw all their astrologers in jail then there's a level Beyond which you're being too extreme and the solution is a new problem and so even in like again cases like Alex Jones Nuance understanding is something that helps I agree I agree I definitely think there needs to be some consequence for blatant line particularly when it's hurting others particularly but even then you know it's almost always kind of hurting others because you're you're maybe making them waste their time and money which is kind of hurting them right so it it's always about level level of abuse level of hurt and level sure that's a point that I'm debating in my book uh in relation to astrology is that in astrology some of the Skeptics you would ban it precisely argue in this fashion that even if it's not because they have a difficulty proving that it's actually killing people because astrology is not really killing people anywhere so they usually default to all the money that it takes away from people and then you find that it's nowhere near the worst thing even among everything you could assume is is some sort of like Charlotte rate or whatever word you could use so there's like in within within the sort of foreign potatoes compared to stuff that clearly isn't astrology uh so in that it's sort of a arguable how big of an harm it would be in this in this case but they could still say but still wasting money or they should be I don't know you taking that money and giving it to astronomers that would be better for society is sometimes it feels like uh what they're actually saying so oh sure I guess it will be constructed like feel free to give money to astronomers to do science sure there's like no really I wouldn't say that there's a harm in that unless uh it would again uh cause there to be many more charlatans pretending to be astronomers just to get the money as it always happens when you give money to something but in this case sure but then what you're really debating is political philosophy what kind of society do we want to live in and if we want to live in Liberal democracy not some sort of uh science dictatorship then yeah maybe science isn't the Democracy then gets like a different feeling if you try to apply it politically like uh whatever scientists deemed to be wrong it's forbidden then science really isn't a democracy and it really wouldn't be in that sense it's a bit authoritarian because they sort of kind of have an authority on Truth uh so in this sense in the liberal democracy people need to be allowed to have biases even if you define it as a vice and then the real comparison is between astrology and let's say alcoholism is this the real comparison and then every time you do a comparison between astrology and a vice and an actual Vice then like yeah alcoholism kills people like you give drunk drivers you get health effects and you get all this stuff like really like if it's addictive compared to astrology is way more addictive so you are sort of bound to lose more money on it and destroy your health and maybe your relationships and stuff and then you look at like astrologies it's like it's not that expensive for a person they can get it for free if they really want to it's not it doesn't help direct health effects it's not the main problem that Skeptics would say is that most of the horoscopes are vague rubbish so they're saying nothing and something that's saying nothing can be giving people ideas to do bad stuff because it basically doesn't give them ideas yeah so it's in in that way like one of the safer things you could be doing so that's a bad idea that's the discussions that you get into that's basically a political philosophical discussions about the nature of the system we want to understand and you know you know me I'm fully in support of liberal democracy in any kind of openness and transparency and and Free Speech these are all great things that I think the vast majority of society agree you know freedom to to do what you want to do and say what you want to say without hurting others is a good thing um and you know it's specifically allowing hurting yourself a little yeah and it's okay yeah vices to some extent as long as you understand you know to some extent how bad these things like alcoholism and drugs and you know hard drugs particularly as long as you understand you know as much as possible the consequences of your decisions and that's where you know education is is so key to any of these vices as long as people aren't being charlataned in to being addicted to drugs or addicted to alcohol or pornography or or whatever it might be that's ruining their life and what in some in some way as long as they're aware of it I guess they're aware of the potential to become addicted and ruin their life over it and they're still making a choice to do whatever advice anyway you know gambling is another great example where you know it can be really fun it can be a great adult Pastime but in many cases people spend their whole life savings and it's more of an issue that uh what type of personality you are there are some people who are likely or more addictive types of Personality who suffer the consequences the reason why some of these devices are illegal in most places in the world is that for a normal person in terms of like a psycho normal not psycho diversion that sense but psycho normal person really can just quit really can moderate and then so most of the time it doesn't really have any dramatic negative consequence and maybe you then want to have a special way of dealing with the minority of cases where some issues arise and with something like astrology you could have the kind of person who will be wasting excessive amount of money by constantly having astrologers write up like what their children should be doing all the time and uh there is a that type of person but it's not a super common type of person you actually got me thinking of another thing I'd like to try to classify on the truth work site is the list devices as well you know just list them all list all the biggest ones the ones that are kind of the most dangerous the most addicting or the most kind of abused you know and kind of list them down and have H truth teller kind of chime in how bad is this how good is this and what do you think about this particular it's like it seems to seems to be clear now that we should do a bunch of scales yes I love scales that's the whole point is nothing's black and white We're we're Middle Ground we're trying to understand how gray something is or how black or how how what all the shades 50 Shades of truth if you do if you did uh if you did some sort of a scale of vices then you'd find that something like astrology would be on the harmless end of the spectrum and something like harder drugs would be or some forms of gambling maybe or would be at the extreme end of the spectrum and then you sort of would put things into context and so then if you're talking about so like there are six worst things that are legal that are worse than astrology this advice is therefore probably is fine to be allowed for people to have it it's going to be like a very sensible contextual a way to explain the place of these kinds of things and with the that's a lot of with the Paranormal stuff like because Skeptics are irritated by all of it by ghost hunters even though I guess many of them have sort of a soft spots for Ghost Hunters Sometimes some of them have the subspot for UFOs but mostly ghost UFOs scripteds which are the creatures that allegedly exist but probably have some there's some issue with like evolutionary speaking doesn't look like a thing that should be living in that particular area so there's some sort of scientific issue with that and there's no solid evidence that it lives there on the accounts so and then astrology and all forms of divination which includes numerology and a lot of craziness stuff like uh I don't know crystal balls uh breeding tea leaves or crystals whatever anybody wants to do with crystals crystals seem to be able to do anything you want them to do in that at that point like even there you would have uh scale within this field and you know what the worst thing is with worst effects if from all the sort of new age stuff what's the worst potentially most dangerous no idea uh it's any any promise of a magical health treatment like all kinds of people who say that you I can use crystals to heal your cancer snake oil snake oil vehicle basically that's the sort of even even within that field and it's sort of indicative the first my first encounter with Skeptics being crazy about this was a Czech article which was named astrologers ufologists and other charlatans and uh sort of throwing everything in one bag of course it's like one of the worst articles I've ever read it's like debating wise a great Showcase of political fallacies and bad arguments and even there the person who specifically started with astrologers because I think he was astronomer or astronomer astronomy adjacent person so he specifically put that word first so that's the worst and then I was explaining how astrology is the worst every example of a harm that was in the article was from Faith Healers there was basically no example of anything substantially negative being done by ufologists or astronomers which like just like yes I guess there is a common theme between astrology and ufology because there's space but other than that it's just there's nothing in common there's like of super very little in common there's like one high profile astrologer person uh who is adjacent to UFO stuff in a significant way and a sort of super funny example uh it's a bit of a wacky person even by any standards of ufology or astrology I think her name is Laura Eisenhower it's important the last name yes she is related to President Eisenhower she's his uh I think granddaughter or something for that effect and she basically says publicly and believes that uh Eisenhower the president her relative headed the meeting with aliens and and made some sort of alien treaty and she's an astrologist also but calls herself an intuitive astrologist which is like I don't have enough face Palms that I can make with my face talk about the term intuitive astrologist like as if like astrology was such a strict and rigorous and constraining science that you had to be intuitive about it which means like basically I'm just winging it it's astrology but I'm admitting that I'm just winging it so it's like the wackiest person who's the connection but other than that it is just no connection between these two things so even like within the scales it's not necessarily if you would try to categorize because of course in philosophy and science categorization definition is very important you need to do that properly or you don't even know what we're talking about and in this case if you were doing the scales I'm not even sure that ufology would exist on the same scale as astrology at all okay well this is this is definitely a new project I think this is definitely something we want on the truthworks site um we have to kind of think of how we're going to frame it in a way that it's easy for people to kind of click on a certain thing read the quick you know quick thing about what it's about and then kind of quickly rate it in their own truth-telling way what they feel about it you know I give it a scale and maybe a comment as to how they feel about that particular but other than just the right thing because it's my issue with many of the social media designs they're avoiding arguments they're avoiding actual explanations of stuff they're avoiding long form uh explanations and discussions but that's really what you need to have uh if you're just like everybody clicks a button and we have a number that's something it's not nothing uh you can have some sort of scientific arguments the wisdom of the crowd if many like uh or like not expert people uh many laymen if many laymen guess and there's really many of them then oftentimes the guess the average of the guesses is is pretty good even by expert standards and sometimes a small group of experts would do worse on a sort of writing of something than a huge crowd of that's some reason there's some science to that so so it's some value to to such estimate if you get sufficient numbers just statistically but uh other than that would be important to properly give all of the context like everybody justifying their decisions that's something that's very common in if you're doing debate judging in debate judging ideally you're supposed to write down in many formats you're supposed to write down reasons for why you made a particular judgment and oftentimes it would be ideal if on the ballot so-called ballot that you get with the result it's not just your votes but there's basically your like structured summary of what the debate even was and there's a way how to like indicate it with uh uh points connected with each other some logical symbols and stuff you can basically chart uh a particular problem uh diagram it uh as part of your explanation which really shows as a window into your thought process you you're explicating explaining your thought process so the sort of high level truth tellers would be ideal if that's what they were doing if they were explaining their thought process on particular things how they arrived at the computer that's a great point so what we could definitely do is incentivize you know that level of reasoning so the low-level truth tellers could just kind of throw in go through quickly answer the survey you know what do you think about this yes or no slightly degree I agree so that's that's the term that's that's what that's what it is we can start with that survey but then the high level ones the top 10 or the top one 100 that eventually become our high level truth tolerance it's essentially their you know career to kind of give us reasons for each of these things and to kind of help guide the discussion in a good unbiased way for all the other truth tellers to kind of look at and say oh I agree with that I'm doing more research and now I can kind of give a better you know uh statement as to why why that is or is not uh likely true yeah basically they should be of course referencing evidence and stuff like that like stuff that you do get in something like Wikipedia that you can't just say a thing you have to have a point of reference ideally where it's coming from although Wikipedia doesn't have some sort of arbitrary limiting rules to how that works like I can for example you I believe you can't that's like if it's a page about you you can't be either editing information about you is something like that which sort of led to many of the profiles of people who are enemies of the Skeptics being totally hijacked by the Skeptics and they can't fix untruths that that are then put there by somebody who doesn't like them type stuff I think you always kinda Wikipedia would almost I think need to be doing if you're doing something similar I think what you would basically need is a point of view of the person who's being described like their own point of view on what thing is like uh like in a law situation you have to be able to allow to make a defense yeah for yourself because like context without the person being uh attacked being able to defend themselves you need both sides so yeah yeah and any of these any of these lists that we come up we definitely have to have at least a section for somebody who's you know opposed to the norm let's just say so say 98 agree this Falls you might have a section for the two percent that can go and kind of make a reasonable argument as to why and defend defend that particular thing to say yeah only two percent say it's it's true but this is why and I would like to be a defendant or I would like to be uh yeah it's pretty much like uh you could have uh basically lawyers uh people who are just there to be doing the steel Manning of positions they I wouldn't be invested in the outcome either way they were just their job would be because it's basically lawyer's joke he do not care really whether the person has done or hasn't done the crime but really do the best they can to defend them type stuff in the context of logical discourse you don't necessarily have to go to that full extreme like even knowing that the person is full of defending them like you don't have to do that but you kind of have to do steel Manning which means the best justifiable version of the excellent you're supposed to be attacking the Steel Man position and there's another thing that I remembered uh way back when I was sort of with a bunch of my friends were thinking of in the olden days of uh starting a different because it eventually I ended up starting with my friends uh the paid organization but even before then we sort of with different friends try to uh or thought about uh starting a different debating organization I think we're a bit ambitious it was uh supposed to be a galactic debate league it's like if you just try to scale it up like uh try to create a debating format that if aliens uh arrived at the planet you could get involved uh and still be covered by it so it's just like a bit ambitious but uh within that there was a one position that you would basically get that person to be a demagogue to intentionally play the role play the part of the demagogue and try to come up with all the most manipulative cleverest bad arguments so that then the other people within the debating organization like the students The Debaters or other judges would then try to defend themselves against that or try to whip up the sort of to tear apart the sort of best effort of a demagogue to sort of explain try to find like Workshop it like like to try to find like the most devious Arguments for the wrong thing and then uh sort of the devil Advocates type stuff so it's like really try that app but also then at the same time put even greater effort into also explaining why okay so this is the best we could come up with if we were evil and this is how we're tearing it to shreds so so that like even if in the wild somebody was trying to be manipulative you would sort of be able to come up with the worst arguments before them and already immediately at the moment that you came up with them immediately destroy them the exercise to make it clear that they're sort of to nip it in the buds like to prepare people for being sort of like a mental self-defense to the extreme so it's like sort of uh try to trade because I guess I guess some people didn't like it in the uh more conservative debating organizations it's like you should never even attempt doing a bad argument because what if you convinced somehow inadvertently uh with the bad argument type stuff but that's like somebody in the world is going to try it it just uh that was my thought I guess back then was my thought that maybe if it's part of the education process or in this case it would actually fit maybe quite well into something like truth works that you would have somebody who would be trying to anticipate the that like the charlatans in the world would try to come up with and we would like preemptively be spending time diffusing it yeah that's great yeah yeah no that's that's 100 what what our goal would be is to educate people on how to combat charlatans how to combat demagogues how to counter argument them and understand where they're coming from understand that debate making debating cool again as one of our is one of our best videos I think that's gonna It's Gonna Come Back all right well let's um we've talked we've talked a lot today about a lot of different things that was great um let's kind of circle back to wrap up the skin walk around stuff I don't even know if this will be part of the same video or not but um is there any other final comments you'd like to throw out there it was really interesting discussion I think it remains to be seen whether they'll have any conclusive proof about any of these things it's all kind of really good you know scientific study and scientific results but nothing really conclusive that I could see yeah I would say I would say that I guess we can talk a little bit now at the end about some specific things that we found interesting uh in the video that we saw so that it's not super General about it uh I would say to your point right now that yes I think the seeing science in progress is important by itself you don't necessarily have to ultimately find the answer at the end I think it's one of those uh it's about the journey not the destination necessarily even though many scientists Travis Taylor probably would really like to get to the destination but uh just watching the journey like what it's supposed to look like it's like a good education okay so if we're actually seriously trying to investigate paranormal phenomena so anomalies uh anomalous phenomena so how we should go about it like what is the right way to try to investigate them and I guess in their way sort of what the show is a a workshop in like figuring out like as they go along figuring out like how to approach it because one of the things they needed to figure out was uh security concerns or uh specifically okay so if what we're studying is an intelligence then it can you know be mean and try to harm people who are poking it so there was a lot of concern about if they should dig or not because there was this uh Superstition Superstition that bad things happen when you dig which uh the first time Travis Taylor heard it it was like a guy they are kidding this is some sort of like a joke like are you being serious it's like but what do you mean we can't dig or bad things happen uh but then they attempted digging a couple of times and a couple of times bad things did happen so but they sort of it's interesting how they eventually got over it and it's just like accepted that there's going to be maybe some negative thing happening uh but they did for example uh at one point uh figured out like maybe we should have like a safe room and they had a silo which was a a pretty strong Saturday cage because they assumed like maybe if these attacks are attacked they need some sort of radiation attack so if we feel that there are some sort of symptoms going on of this kind of attack then maybe we should go hide in the shelter uh which is interesting exactly the kind of thing you would have like on a spaceship you would have a radiation shelter precisely when some sort of like attack or like storm uh in in space like uh solar wind or something's picking up and then you would it there's radiation has it that's exactly what you need to have and but just try to weather it uh in that so they sort of figured out some like safety protocols like there's about a funny idea that I had while I was watching it you could get then if Faraday cages work then you could get the crazy people who the Arduino architect no music band uh you should definitely investigate those are people who are doing the music played by Tesla coils okay it's super cool like uh try Googling Tesla coil Imperial March from Star Wars it's just for some reason movies which had like a lightning battle stuff the music from those movies were is really nice played on Tesla coils for some reason I don't haven't don't have a theory why that works so those people would do they would have two Tesla coils for example and then one of them would be in like a chain mail type uh Faraday clothing and uh would be in between the Tesla girls as they're playing the music getting hit by lightning well with the music because they're completely shielded and undergraded so you could pretty much have like what I thought of you could have like a like a like a paladin in like a chain mail armor like medieval style which would be the Faraday cage armors would be the point of the armor and then you could call them theradines and anti-magical units that would be running around in a faraday chain metal and uh could have like a sword or something that's just like a lightning rod that's just concentrating the the lightning and uh so it's just the thought I had uh but uh it's interesting for me like in these specific details like for instance one of the another patterns that I didn't mention everything keeps failing like all of the devices keep failing and I guess that's the one thing that you could theorize to some extent could just be natural phenomena in the area just the electromagnetic flux or something like that it is interesting then that you can but you can push it further because those are the things that paranormal investigators kept saying the whole time even like people who almost got missing missing 411 style in the wilderness who had some sort of weird incident which again could be partially naturally generated with phenomena is the problem like if if you can have somehow naturally generated microwave blast then a person who's completely healthy and fine and normal can just get momentarily crazy in the forest because like that's just could happen could be natural phenomenon that we don't really understand so in this case it's interesting to like if you keep pushing it and if you keep trying it again and again and you keep track of all the ways in which the devices fail so for instance uh when you get to a point when the astronomers are trying to look through a patch of sky and their super Advanced telescopes uh keep failing in a way that like the one star that I was just about to select to observe was permanently deleted from a non-networked hard drive of the telescope like that's probably not the natural phenomenon like or like uh that that's like there's some level of it that suggests intelligent interference there's some level that would be explicable as uh just natural so in this case it's precisely because they keep they keep observing it I'm trying stuff again and again and things keep happening over and over then you're actually getting some sort of question settled and you're getting some some actual data that have some scientific value and then you can maybe start drawing conclusions from or you can use to adjust protocols for future research so even if they don't actually find out anything really about what that particular anomaly is like what it is actually what if it's like a different dimension alien which is or whatever it's like if you don't just don't find out then they will definitely buy the end if they do a couple more seasons would have developed significantly protocols for researching these uh situations to at least be much more sure if some things uh natural phenomenon in the future or if you can rule out somehow if it is a weirder anomaly because like if you just said okay so our instruments failed then that's not enough information if you set up the experiment in a way that the instruments would have to fail in a suspicious manner then if you always do that then you more often will get the data of like okay but this failure was significant it wasn't just a normal failure it was a suspicious failure and you would have a typology of fairies of equipment or something so for me again just the process is fascinating and something that something that somebody should have done like uh publicly because I pretty much uh sure somebody secretly did it but like somebody publicly should have done a project like this 30 years ago man it's it's it's a definitely something that is showing how fast the world is changing how much more acceptable and how much more common it is to do things open source and to do things kind of in an open manner transparent transparently so I I got my fingers crossed that you know they will find some kind of conclusive evidence or or that we will make first Contact at some point in the near future that would be great yeah I just hope it's altruistic I I have to believe that if there if Bill Cipher was out there if there was any negative or let's say evil UFOs out there they would have conquered us long ago like I have to kind of un believe that that if they could conquer us or if they wanted to conquers they they would have they would be able to like obviously if they can get there they're way stronger than us they have no qualms about just enslaving all of us if they wanted to um so I have to assume that they're altruistic that they're nice that they have some kind of prime directive that keeps them from well I I guess you could at least you could at least assume that there's some sort of dominant power in the surrounding area that's enforcing some sort of limits on exploitation yeah you have to assume that otherwise they would have you know they would have done it it's not like they can't it's not like they're waiting around for us to be just ready for exploitation like there's no way we could stop them like there's no way um if they wanted to so except with the Paladin armor they would they would have some kind of laser that would melt you in your armor I'm sure yeah just press the button like switch from okay switching from like Tesla attack to laser yeah just nuke them with here whatever anyway you just wanted to ask you just one thing I wanted to ask you so was there any particular specific thing from the show that was interesting too oh particularly I I really like the the concept that everything the the weather balloon and the rocket that there is something in the air that was definitely the core concept to me that everything kind of rate radiated out from that one point um so that's definitely the biggest thing in my head is what could cause that how could that actually in in my personal realm of what I know to be true and what I think might be true you know how would I make sense of that and um so I I definitely think there's something going on assuming they're telling the truth like I part of me says that maybe it it isn't true at all part of me kind of that skeptic in me says okay maybe they're just trying to pretend that it's true and they're really good at pretending that it's true so I still kind of have that maybe as a five to ten percent possibility in there um but I'd like to believe that they're being honest I would definitely recommend you watch also the interviews with Travis Taylor yeah I haven't gone in that deep so I'll definitely I'll keep going deeper I just watched the first season so I haven't gone deep into the other very well so I'm not it's I'm not super deep yet but I'll continue to kind of explore and uh let's just say without much spoiler uh their things are escalating okay and then they're still making is the fourth season coming out soon they filmed it I think because they're doing it always in the summer because of weather uh so they're just filming it in the summer and then next year they're usually posting it uh I'll uh definitely have to catch up and continue on so I I recommend it to anybody um you know fast forward the parts that you're not interested in and stick with the parts that you are if if it's not uh if it's a little too dry for you but it is interesting and I think there's definitely nothing that compares yeah that was ever filmed it's a very unique Series so so check it out let us know what you think and uh we're so glad that we could talk about it today thanks so much Martin for joining us this is I know definitely um something that you've got a lot more experience with than me as far as uh as far as all the Paranormal and fun things that are in the world and how it all relates together so thanks for sharing your perspective on that and we're excited we've got like three or four new topics that we just kind of came up with in this topic today so I don't think we'll ever run out of fun things to talk about on this channel um so thanks for joining us everybody today and let's take what we have and make the best of it and continue to save the world together [Music] [Music]