David Grusch UFO Whistleblower | Under Oath Testimony to Congress

Transcript

Mr chairman ranking members and congressmen thank you I'm happy to be here this is an important issue and I'm grateful for your time my name is David Charles grush I was an intelligence officer for 14 years in the both in the U.S Air Force both active duty Air National Guard and Reserve at the rank of major and most recently from 2021 to 2025 or excuse me 2023 at the National geospatial Intelligence Agency NGA at the gs-15 civilian level which is the military equivalent of a full bird colonel I was my agency's co-lead and unidentified anomalous phenomena and trans medium object analysis as well as reporting to the UAP task force uaptf and eventually once it was established the all-domain anomaly resolution office Arrow I became a whistleblower through a PPD 19 urgent concern filing in May 2022 with the intelligence Community Inspector General following concerning reports from multiple esteemed and credentialed current and former military and intelligence Community individuals that the U.S government is operating with secrecy above Congressional oversights with regards to uaps my testimony is based on information I've been given by individuals with a long-standing track record of legitimacy and service to this country many of whom also have shared compelling evidence in the form of photography official documentation and classified oral testimony to myself and many my various colleagues I have taken every step I can to collaborate this evidence over a period of four years while I was with the UAP task force and do my due diligence on the individual sharing it this is because of these steps I believe strongly in the importance of bringing this information before you I am driven by a commitment of both to truth and transparency rooted in our inherent duty to uphold the United States Constitution and protect the American people I'm asking Congress to hold our government to the standard and thoroughly investigate these claims but as I stand here under oath now I am speaking to the facts as I have been told them in the U.S Air Force in my national reconnaissance office nro Reserve its capacity I was a member of the UAP task force from 2019 to 2021. I served at the narrow operations center on the director's briefing staff which included the coordination of the presidential Daily Brief and supporting variety of contingency operations which I was the reserve Intelligence Division Chief back up in 2019 the UAP task force director asked me to identify all special access programs and controlled access programs also known as saps and caps we needed to satisfy our congressionally mandated Mission and we were direct report at the time to the depth sect deaf at the time due to my extensive executive level intelligence support duties I was cleared to literally all relevant compartments and in a position of extreme trust both in my military and civilian capacities I was informed in the course of my official duties of a multi-decade UAP crash retrieval and reverse engineering program to which I was denied access to those additional read-ons when I requested it I made the decision based on the data I collected to report this information to my Superior superiors and multiple inspectors General and in effect becoming a whistleblower as you know I've suffered retaliation for my decision but I am hopeful that my actions will ultimately lead to a positive outcome of increased transparency thank you and I'm happy to answer your questions assuming that there are reasons why not all this should be made public this has been around for a long period of time um can you think of can any of the three of you think of any reason why anything related to uaps say 15 years and back should not be immediately made public I think one of it is uh acknowledging a vulnerability both from a collection and I'll just say A you know countermeasure perspective so it's uh no we haven't cracked for many years even say 20 years back is there any reason why when you go back that far things shouldn't be made public unless it shows a specific National Security vulnerability as it relates to a weakness and particular defenses okay Mr gresh finally do you believe that our government is in possession of uaps absolutely based on interviewing over 40 Witnesses over four years and and where I know the exact locations and those locations were provided to the Inspector General and some of which to the intelligence committees I actually had the people with the first-hand knowledge um provide a protected disclosure to the Inspector General thank you and Mr chairman I would just say that I think that these questions are important questions Mr grush thank you for being here brother thank you all very much um have you faced any retaliation or arrivals for any of your testimony or anything on these lines I have to be careful what I say in detail because there is an open uh whistleblower reprisal investigation on my behalf and I don't want to compromise that investigation by providing anything that may uh help provide somebody information but it was very brutal and very unfortunate some of the tactics they used to hurt me both professionally and and personally to be quite Frank yeah it's very unfortunate as they say when you're over the target that's when they do the most firing at you do you have any personal knowledge of people who've been harmed or injured in efforts to cover up or conceal these extraterrestrial technology yes personally if you heard have anyone been murdered that you would that you know of or have heard of I guess I have to be careful asking that question I directed people with that knowledge to the appropriate authorities maybe in a um if we could get it get in a um confidential area skiff we could talk about that but unfortunately um we were denied access to the skiff and that's very unfortunate in this in this scenario um Mr Crush what about you what was your experience after you came forward well uh it's only been about two months or so so I guess my experience has been you know overwhelming support from uh former colleagues of mine that have you know privately messaged me and and I do appreciate that uh but I I do have knowledge of um active planned reprisal activity against myself and other colleagues and it's very very upsetting to me coming from where uh certain senior leadership at previous agencies I was associated with and that's all I'll say publicly but I can provide more details in a closed environment okay well I I hope you understand that um there would be bipartisan rejection of any attempt uh to vilify demonize or engage in other reprisals against our Witnesses and people who are telling the truth from their perspective yeah there were certain colleagues of mine that were brutally administratively attacked and it you know actually makes me very upset to as a leader to see that happen to other co-workers and actually superiors of mine over the last three years how do you account for that response that seems like a bizarre response I called administrative terrorism that's their their quiver their tool in the toolbox to silence people especially you know the career government service cares about their career cares about their clearance uh their reputation to climb the ladder and when you threaten that uh flow career path a lot of people back off but I'm here to represent those people so Mr grush in speaking to you yesterday um I just wanted to follow up on representative raskin's questions in the last couple of years have you had incidences that have caused you to be in fear for your life for addressing these issues yes personally okay I just want everyone to note that he's coming forward in fear of his life to put in perspective if they were really not scared about this information coming out why would someone be intimidated like that um to your knowledge are nhis working with adversarial foreign governments in either technology exchange programs or back engineering programs I don't have data on that I'm not sure have you heard or you had people come forward to present that evidence not that particular evidence that you just espoused okay on the 19th of April Dr Kirkpatrick head of Arrow had said that he did not find any evidence of uaps you also stated that you had in your interview that you had briefed him on information that you were uncovering but that he did not follow up with you were the items that you divulged to him pertin to National Security yes him and I had a classified conversation in April 2022 before he took over arrow in the July to 2022 and I provided him some concerns I had do you know why he might not have fallen up with you uh unfortunately I cannot read his mind um I wish he did I was I was happy to give Sage counsel to him on where to look when he took the the Helm of Arrow okay and then my last question for you before I moved to Mr Graves is um you received prior approval from the defense department to speak on certain issues correct correct through uh dobster DOD pre-publication and Security review and I just want to remind the public uh they're just looking from a security perspective uh these are my own personal views and opinions uh not the Departments okay I'm asking that though mainly because I think that there are many people that would like to discredit you so it does bring a certain amount of credibility to your testimony I'm required by law to do that as a Former Intelligence officer or I go to jail for revealing classified information yeah we don't want you to go to jail Mr grush as a result of your previous government work have you met with people with direct knowledge or have direct knowledge yourself of non-human origin craft yes I personally interviewed those individuals Mr grush as a result of your previous government work have you met with people with direct knowledge or have direct knowledge yourself about ATS Advanced Technologies that the US government has uh based on conventional Advanced Tech I was briefed to uh the preponderance of the defense Department's both space and Aerospace compartment programs yeah do you have knowledge or do you have reason to believe that there are programs in the advanced Tech space that are unsanctioned uh yes I do okay yeah and when you say that they're above congressional oversight what do you mean a complicated question uh so there's you know some I would call it abuse here so Congressional oversight of conventional special access programs so I'll use title 10 so DOD as an example right so 10 U.S code section 119 discusses congressional oversight of saps discusses uh the the depth SEC def's ability to waive Congressional reporting however the gang of eight is at least supposed to be notified if a you know waived or wave bigoted unacknowledged sap is created and that's Public Law well so that how does I mean I don't want to cut you off but how does a program like that get funded I will give you generalities I can get very specific in a closed session uh but a misappropriation of funds and uh does that mean does that mean that there is money in the budget that is said to go to a program but it doesn't and it goes to something else yes I have specific knowledge of that yep do you think U.S corporations are over over charging for certain Tech they're selling to the US government and that additional money is going to programs correct through something called irad okay um satellite imagery let's talk about satellite imagery we have satellites all over the place some that we're aware of and many that we're not aware of right we're taking pictures of everything at every point in second uh Mr grush are you aware do you have direct knowledge we've talked to people direct knowledge that there are satellite imagery of these events uh that was one of my primary tasks at NGA since we uh process exploit and disseminate that kind of information I've seen multiple cases some of which to my understanding and of course I left NG in April so that's my information cut off date uh but I personally um reviewed both uh what we call Overhead collection and from other strategic and tactical platforms that were I could not even explain prosaically and I have a degree in physics by the way as well and I had I am aware that you guys have not seen these um reports unfortunately and I don't know why is do you have direct knowledge we've spoken people with direct knowledge that this imagery applies to crash sites crash crash imagery I can't discuss that in an open session okay uh do you have any information that the US government is involved in a disinformation campaign to deny the existence of certain uaps I can't go beyond what I've already stated publicly in my news Nation interview because it touches other sensitivities okay thank you Mr chairman and I thank our Witnesses for being here today um Mr garoosh in your sworn testimony you state that the United States government has retrieved supposedly extraterrestrial spacecraft and other UAP related artifacts you go so far as to state that the U.S is in possession of quote non human spacecraft end quote and that some of these artifacts have circulated with defense contractors several other former military and intelligence officials have come forward with similar allegations albeit and non-public settings however Dr Sean Kirkpatrick the director of aaro previously testified before Congress that there has been and I quote no credible evidence thus far of extraterrestrial activity or of quote off-world technology brought to the attention of the office to your knowledge is that statement correct it's not accurate I believe Dr Kirkpatrick mentioned he had about 30 individuals that have come to Arrow thus far a few of those individuals have also come to arrow that I also interviewed and I know what they provided Dr Kirkpatrick in their team okay I was able to evaluate okay that information I need to go on sure but um my understanding that this his statement is accurate came from a direct quote and this contradiction is a perfect example of why we need to inject transparency into our government and for another example look no further than the pitiful response to the Chinese spy balloon debacle earlier this year you may remember the mass confusion that ensued when the balloon was first spotted over Montana four days after it first entered U.S airspace over Alaska the Biden administration's initial inability to address the object grew into a continuous series of embarrassments after news of the balloon reached the Main Street mainstream media we were assured that the balloon posed no threat to our security however after the balloon was allowed to Transit the entire continental United States fighter jets were scrambled off the coast of South Carolina to shoot it down this flip-flopping and obfuscation caused needless confusion fear and panic across the country It's My Hope Mr chairman that this sort of confusion will not be repeated we should investigate the extent to which elements of our government possess or do not possess information that is of critical value to the American people we owe it to the citizens of this nation to make sure that our government is transparent and accountable we must make sure that our government provides answers and Congress must do its duty to solicit those answers with that Mr chairman I yield back thank you Mr chairman I'm going to direct this I believe to Mr grush but if any of you all feel like you need to jump in Just Jump Right In we're good as the U.S government become aware of actual evidence of extraterrestrial otherwise unexplained forms of intelligence and if so when do you think this first occurred I like to use the term non-human I don't like to denote origin keeps the aperture open both scientifically uh certainly like I've discussed publicly previously 1930s okay can you give me the names and titles of the people with direct first-hand knowledge and access to some of this crash retrieval some of these crash retrieval programs and maybe which facilities military bases that would the recovered material would be in and I know a lot of Congress talked about we're going to go to Area 51 and you know and there's nothing there anymore anyway it's just you know and we move like a glacier as soon as we announce it I'm sure the moving vans would pull up but please uh I can't discuss that publicly but I did provide that information both to the Intel committees and the Inspector General and we could get that in this gift if we were allowed to get in a skiff with you would that be probably what you would think sure if you had the appropriate accesses yeah uh what special access programs cover this information and how is it possible that they have evaded oversight for so long uh I do know the names once again I can't discuss that publicly and how they've evaded oversight I in a closed setting I can tell you the specific tradecraft use all right when did when do you think those programs began and who authorized them I do know a lot of that information but that's something I can't discuss publicly because since all right many of y'all want to jump in on any of this you're more than welcome to um what level of security clearance is required to fully access these programs or anybody who has uh and I say that because myself um represented Yates and representative Luna were basically turned away at one point at Eglin so please go right ahead uh certainly difference between member access and say somebody like me but anybody who has a you know tssci clearance and meets the eligibility criteria the access adjudicative Authority should be able to Grant you access Miss Merchant feel yield so just to be put a fine point on that there's nothing that you're aware of that's above special access program classification it if there's anything actually Above Top Secret executive order 13526 delineates the classification levels right and but I I draw a point on that because we can have access to to those programs and so the notion that we're not being given that access sort of defies our typical muscle memory here in Congress thank you Miss Merchant I'll yield back to you thank you Mr Gates um along those lines title 10 you might not know this or not but title 10 and title 50 authorization they seem to say they're inefficient it so who gets to decide this in your opinion in the past uh it's a group of career uh senior executive officials okay are they government officials does it announced do what both in and outs of government and that's about as far as all right well that's it leads to my next question which private corporations are directly involved in this program how much taxpayer money has been invested in these programs to your knowledge I mean we know we know we we audit the Pentagon every year and I've been here five years and they failed the dadgum thing every year uh lose over a billion dollars a year we think and I've told the Department of Defense maybe 60 percent of their assets are unaccounted for whatever the heck that means in the Public's sector you go to jail for that kind of crap so tell me yeah I know when I um I'm a dollar off of my DTS travel voucher I get the hammered but uh seems like it doesn't work together if you sell over 600 worth of stuff on eBay now you get a call from the IRS so please what corporations yeah I don't know these specific metrics towards the end of your question uh the specific corporations I did provide uh to the Committees in specific divisions and uh I spent eleven and a half hours with both Intel committees okay has there been any has there been an active U.S government disinformation campaign to deny the existence of unidentified aerial phenomena and if so why I can't go beyond what I've already exposed publicly about that okay I've been told to ask you what that what that is and how to get it in the record which uh what have you stated publicly in your interviews for the Congressional Record uh if you uh reference my news Nation interview and I talk about a multi-decade you know campaign to disenfranchise public interest basically yeah thank you thank you to our Witnesses for coming here today um I do concur with the ranking members well as several other members here on this committee that this is a committee for whistleblowers and for the protection of whistleblowers as well so we understand what you're putting um on the table here and we're putting on the line here and we thank you for that Mr Crush you sat on the unidentified anomalous phenomenon task force created in the 2020 ndaa correct yes there have been some things that uh that have been mentioned here during this hearing that I wanted to pick up on um Mr Graves you mentioned specifically during the answer to one of your questions you named Boeing contractors um being engaged in an incident regarding this Red Cube about a football football field wide I was wondering if you could speak a little bit about the interaction or Mr gresh either of you the interactions between defense contractor companies and nauap related programs or activities so I'll just say that the information about the contractor himself were provided by a witness and I have no particular detail in that relationship Mr gresh the kind of General on class wave tops certainly the contractors you know or the metal Benders so to speak the ones actually uh doing specific performance on government contracts are they required um to issue any disclosure regarding UAP sightings or do they engage in any reporting around this in terms of the contractors not that I'm aware of they do not okay now when it comes to notification that you had mentioned about um irap program I read programs we have seen defense contractors abuse their contracts before through this committee I have seen it personally and I have also seen the notification requirements to Congress abused um I am wondering one of the loopholes that we see in the law is that there is at least from my vantage point is that depending on what we're seeing is that there are no actual definitions or requirements for notification are there what methods of notification Did You observe like when they say they notified Congress how did they do that do you have insight into that for certain High rad activities uh I can only think of one's conventional in nature um sometimes they throw flow through certain I don't say sap programs that have cognizant authority over out the Air Force or something and those are congressionally reported compartments but ired is literally internal to the contractor so as long as it's money either profits private investment Etc they can do whatever they want to put a finer point on it when there is a requirement for any agency or company to notify or any agency to notify Congress do they contact the chairman of a committee do they get them on the phone specifically is this through an email to hypothetically a dead email box a lot of it comes through what they call the PPR periodic program review process if it's a you know a sap or controlled Access program equity and then those go to the specific committees whether it be the SAS cast thank you but um for the record if you were me where would you look titles programs departments regions if you could just name anything and I put that as an open question to the three of you I'd be happy to give you that in a closed environment I can tell you specifically thank you I I want to get into uh specifics here and and the reason I'm going to go this way is because you've talked a bit about [Music] um what I would call misdirection by official U.S government with regard to uaps right and so I'm going to get to that in a second but last week White House NSC spokesman John Kirby stated that uaps are having an impact on our training ranges and needs to be treated as a legitimate issue do you concur with the statements that's for each of you yes yes yes okay um now having said that I'm going to take you to specific instances around the Phoenix Valley because that's where I I live in 97 we had the famous Phoenix light case I don't know if any of you are familiar with that there were there were two things that went along with that and the explanation was military training range off Luke and the Barry Goldwater range do you know anything different other than the official explanation of those lights only what's in the public vernacular about it that was outside the scope of my duties and if we wanted to just my question along with my colleague from New York Miz ocasio-cortez if we wanted to find out more about that where would we go to find the files and where and who would we address I know you can tell me we need to go to a skiff so you can tell us in a skiff you a vector on that that specific case I'm not I mean I'm familiar with it in terms of public but uh actor includes environment yeah that would be good thank you so if if it's true that uaps are having an impact on training ranges and this Administration considers it to be a legitimate issue what steps can Congress take to address training range impacts and I say that having two very large training ranges in my state yeah as a recipient of a lot of those training range reports uh sometimes we only get contextual kind of um oral uh reporting it'd be nice if they attached all sensor data and there's a system in place that can handle multiple classifications of data and that's an issue with the F-35 right that jet was never built to be an ISR platform and it's a pain in the we'll say butt to get that data off so yeah great do you believe that the 2019 classification guidelines for uip's interferes with the federal government's ability to be transparent with the American people and do you think we need to be more transparent with the American people all of you yeah I'll say yes to that yeah I'm familiar with the the at least the UAP task force 2019 security classification guide I think it's fair um I did actually help uh author that with this oh yeah you got a bias that way but I will say uh I'll call it a lazy attitude about declassifying videos I mean I've seen some of the videos of you know the recent shoot down and I saw no reason that couldn't have been released as long as they mask you know some data the American people deserve to see that imagery and full motion video thank you Mr chairman um appreciate you guys coming out today testifying look I've been here for six months and I'm pretty skeptical I don't trust anything in this town and um and so I and I think that's because I'm from Missouri you've got to show me right um with that being said um there's been a lot of things that have been said um in in the public uh Mr grush and and so I want to get down this if we can some specifics right so um at one point you had said that they're they're my there has been harmful activity or Progressive activity has any of the activity um been aggressive been um hostile in your reports uh I know of multiple colleagues of mine that got physically injured and uh the activity and I Gotta Buy Buy uaps or buy by people within the federal government both okay so there has been activity by by alien or non non-human technology and or beings that has caused harm to humans uh I can't get into the specifics in an open environment but at least the activity that I personally witnessed and not to be very careful here because you don't you know they tell you never to acknowledge tradecraft right so what I personally witness myself and my wife was very disturbing okay um one of my constituents actually sent this next question and I figured I'd ask it since I had the same thought you've said that U.S and has intact spake spacecraft you said that the government has alien bodies or alien species have you seen have you have you seen the spacecraft I have to be careful to describe what I've seen firsthand and not in this environment but I could answer that question behind behind closed doors and have you seen any of the bodies that's something I've I've not witnessed myself okay and so with that being said you know and the other statement that has been made that was intriguing to me because and it's intriguing because my my view has been that we are billions of light years away from any any other system and the concept that an alien species that's technologically advanced enough to travel billions of light years gets here and somehow is incompetent enough to not survive Earth or crashes is is something that I find a little bit far-fetched and with that being said you have mentioned that there's interdimensional potential could you expound on that I had to answer your first question and you know I'm here as a fact witness an expert but I will give you a a theoretical framework at least to work off to kind of expose uh crashes uh regardless of uh you know your level of sentience right you know planes crash cars crash and number of sorties what however High a small percentage are going to end in you know Mission failure if you will as we say in the in the air force uh and then in terms of uh multi-dimensionality that kind of thing the the framework that I'm familiar with for example is something called the holographic principle uh both uh it's it derives itself from general relativity and quantum mechanics and that is if you want to imagine uh 3D objects such as yourself casting a shadow onto a 2d surface that's the holographic principle so you can be projected quasi-projected from higher dimensional space to lower dimensional it's a scientific Trope that you can actually cross literally as far as I understand but there's probably guys with phds that we can probably but you have not seen any documentation that that's what's occurring uh only the theoretical framework discussion okay um okay Occam's razor is that this these aircraft have they been identified that they are being produced by by domestic um you know military and contractors is there any evidence that that's what's being recovered uh not to my knowledge plus the recoveries predate a lot of our Advanced programs that I previously am waiting of so um would it be safe to say that there could be a scenario today where you have an aircraft that crashes and because it's been involved in one program from One Federal agency and the but the but the agency that retrieves it is not aware of that program and to them it appears alien in origin I mean that's a hypothetical situation I'm not aware of any uh historical situation that would match that that you described so you're not aware it has not happened that you're aware of that I'm aware of [Music] thank you Mr chairman I yield back it was stated explicitly to me by these test pilots that if you have a u of AP experience the best thing you can do for your career is forget it and not tell anyone because any type of reporting either above the surface or below the surface does have a perceived consequence to these people and that is a culture we must change if we want to get to the truth Mr chairman I would observe that perhaps as we as we move forward from this hearing there are some obvious next steps every person watching this knows that we need to meet with Mr grush in a secure compartmentalized facility so that we can get fulsome answers that do not put him in Jeopardy and that and that give us the information we need second I would suggest that the radar images from that were collected of this formation of craft out of Eglin Air Force Base and specifically the actual image taken by the actual flight crew that we can actually validate um be provided to the committee subpoenaed if necessary so that we're able to track how to get this type of reporting and Analysis done in a more fulsome way that would be my recommendation humbly as a guest here of the fine oversight committee I yield back thank you Mr chairman and good morning to our Witnesses who are testifying today I want to thank each of you for being here to discuss a topic of grave importance to our national security earlier this year Chinese spy balloon was shot down off the coast of my home state of South Carolina since the Roswell incident in 1947 many Americans have wondered about the dangers of unknown objects crisscrossing our skies whether these are uaps or weather phenomena advanced technology from American allied or enemy forces or something more out of this world so my first question I have several questions and I'll I if we can just be quick on these first two I'm going to ask each of you the same question and then I'll get to each of you individually the first one when you reported your experiences with a UAP did any of you face any repercussions with your superiors yes or no no I've actually never seen anything personally believe it or not so all right um and then do do you believe there's an active disinformation campaign within our government to deny existence of uaps yes or no I don't have an answer to that [Music] as previous previously stated publicly yes I think previously with like Project Blue Book yes but currently I don't speak for the United States government okay thank you Mr gresh a couple of questions for you too sir this morning um what percentage of uaps do you feel are adequately investigated by the U.S government of the five percent that are reported um I can only speak for my personal leadership over at NGA I tried to look at every report that came through that I could triage so do you believe that officials at the highest levels of our national security apparatus have unlawfully withheld information from Congress and subverted our oversight Authority there are certain elected leaders that had more information that I'm not sure what they've shared with certain gang of eight members or Etc but uh certainly uh I would not be surprised okay possession of potentially non -craft based on your experience and extensive conversations with experts do you believe our government has made contact with intelligent extraterrestrials something I can't discuss in public setting um okay I can't ask when you think this occurs if you believe we have crashed craft uh stated earlier do we have the bodies of the pilots who piloted this craft as I've stated publicly already in my news Nation interview biologics came with some of these recoveries yeah um were they I guess I guess non-human and that was the assessment of people with direct knowledge on the program I talked to that are currently still on the program and was this that be determined the specific documentation I would have to talk to you to skip about gotcha um so and you may or may not be able to answer the answer into a skiff at the next hearing that we have but who in the government either what agency sub-agency what contractors who should be called into the next hearing about uaps either in a public setting or even in a private setting and you probably can't name names but what agencies or organizations contractors Etc do we need to call in to get these questions answered whether it's about funding what programs are happening and what's out there I can give you a specific cooperative and hostile witness list of specific individuals uh that were in those and how soon can we get that list I'm happy to provide that to you after the hearing super thank you and I yield back thank you Mr chairman and thank you all for being here and the courage it took to come forward and again the sacrifice that he should have made um I serve on the national security subcommittee for the financial services committee so I really want to stay in the National Security Lane uh if I may um so when we think about traditional adversaries and both us towards them and them towards us you know we probe uh their capabilities we look for weaknesses uh and we we collect that data that reconnaissance for in the in the event we need it in the future um for each of you yes or no question based off of your own experience or the data that you've been privy to is there any indication that these uaps could be essentially collecting reconnaissance information Mr grapes yes Mr brush Fair assessment yeah Mr fraver very possible again in the National Security of aim is it possible that these uips would be probing our capabilities yes or no Mr Graves yes Rush yes Craver definitely is it possible that these uaps are testing for vulnerabilities in our current systems yes yes possible do you feel based off of your experience and the information that you've been privy to that these UOP uaps provide an existential threat to the National Security of the United States Mr Graves potentially yes sir potentially uh same answer potentially yeah I'd say definitely potentially Mr Graves and fraver you know in the event that your encounters have become hostile would you have would have would you have had the capability to defend yourself your crew your aircraft absolutely not sir no is based off of the information that you've been privy to is there any indication that these uaps are interested in our nuclear technology and capabilities yes by external observation sure that could be a fair assessment yeah yes is there any indication that department of energy is involved in UAP data collection and housing I don't have an answer I can't confirm or deny that in a public setting and could you do it in a secure setting yes Mr favor no I don't know Mr chairman um you know I think I'm the last member to go but there clearly is a threat to the National Security of the United States of America as members of Congress we have a responsibility to maintain oversight and be aware of these activities so that if appropriate we take action I would encourage the chairman to demand that we have any and all but in particular Mr grush talk to us in a skiff and if that access is denied I will personally volunteer to initiate the Holmen rule against any Personnel or any uh program or any agency that denies act access to Congress Mr grush I might have asked this before but I want to make sure do you have any personal knowledge of someone who's possibly been injured working on Legacy UAP reverse engineering yes okay um how are they injured was it is it something like a radioactive type situation or something we didn't understand I've heard people talk about Havana syndrome type incidences what what was your recollection of that I can't get into the specifics but you could imagine assessing an unknown unknown uh there's a lot of potentialities you can't fully prepare for how do you think we ought to handle UAP whistleblower complaints like yours in the in the future yeah there was some issue with mine so you know PPD 19 process it goes to the Intel committee's uh either through PPD 19 or icd-120 there's not a good way for the intelligence Community Inspector General to provide that to other committees and I asked my information to be sent to the House and Senate armed services committee because there are title 10 equities at play but there was no smooth process to do so yeah that's a trash can um are you aware of any individuals that are participating in reverse engineering programs for non-terrestrial craft personally yes uh do you know anything to be willing to testify if there were protections for them certainly closed door and assurances uh the breaking their NDA they're not going to get administratively punished for sale yeah I yield uh chairman I'd like to submit for the record an article by news nation and it follows Mr grush's full interview for the record thank you um Mr grush why is it that you referred to the phenomenon as non-human intelligence why deviate from the basis of extraterrestrial life I think the phenomenon is uh very complex and I like to leave an open mind analytically to specific origin when you say specific origin are you referring can you elaborate on that for those that might if it's a traditional extraterrestrial origin or something else that we don't quite understand uh from either biological or astrophysics perspective yeah I just like the keep an open mind on what it could be yeah okay and referring to your news Nation interview you had referenced specific treaties between governments um article 3 of the nuclear arms treaty with Russia identifies uaps it specifically mentions them to your knowledge are there safety measures in place with foreign governments or other superpowers to avoid an escalatory situation in the event that a UAP malevolent malevolent event occurs uh yeah you're referring to actual uh a public treaty in the U.N register uh it's funny you mentioned that yeah the agreement on measures to reduce the risk of outbreak a nuclear war sign in 1971 uh unclassified treaty publicly available and If you cite the George Washington University National Security archives you will find uh the Declassified in 2013 specific Provisions in the specific uh Red Line flash message traffic with the specific codes pursuant to article 3 an article uh also situation two which is in the the previously classified NSA archive what I would recommend and I I tried to get access but uh I got a wall of Silence at the White House uh was the specific incidents when those um message traffic was used I think uh some scholarship on that would open the door to a further investigation uh using those publicly available information thank you and then my last question was 51 seconds remaining you you mentioned white collar crime really being taking place in regards to a cover-up can you please elaborate I have concerns based on the interviews I conducted under my official duties of potential violations of the federal acquisition regulations the far thank you very much chairman I yield the remainder of my time Mr grush um you've been able to answer in great detail on certain questions and then other things you say you're not able uh to respond to can you just explain where you're Drawing the Line uh what's the basis for that yeah based on my dopser Security review uh and what they've determined that is unclassified I see so you're answering any questions that just call upon your knowledge of an unclassified questions but anything that relates to classified matters you're not commenting on in this context in an open session but happy to participate in a closed session at the right level yeah okay thank you Mr chairman this is for all three of y'all starting with Mr grades why did you come forward on this issue I came forward because I felt that my colleagues did not have a way to mitigate the safety threat and I wanted to help them I was trained as an aviation safety officer by the Navy and this seemed it just it just felt right I felt like I had to help the folks that were still flying and dealing with this purely a sense of Duty I first sworn of when I was a Cadet 18 years ago and I I still uphold that even out of the uniform Commander he's pestered by a friend and I asked why and he said you're the one person that they can't discredit and you'll add credibility to the New York Times article and so after about six times I said okay this town isn't made unfortunately by people like y'all we thank you and I do want to also thank the people in the audience and people that are watching this that can't be people all over the world that have kept this issue alive you've endured criticism and derogatory remarks and and we're trying to get to the bottom of it and so God bless y'all thank you all so much we really appreciate you guys and gals um that's why we need term limits y'all keep clapping us politicians just keep talking so let me ask y'all how can the public contribute to UAP reporting and what Avenues you think are available to the public to report these sightings right now I don't think there is a lot of public options for the every man to be able to report on this I think even for professionals that have sensor data that are seeing these on a regular basis they're still hesitant to come forward and so for the general public I think encouraging the conversations that we're having today looking for Technology Solutions that can be distributed so that objective data can be gathered is the first place to go Mr garage I'll just touch on The Whistleblower side of it I do encourage you know current former military intelligence community in Industry contractors to come forward in a legal way either through the IC or DOD or whatever the cognizant IDs are um to lead you know lead you know join me in this discussion thank you Alan I want to thank everybody we made history today Mr chairman I yield thank you much Mr Garcia I think I know now we're going to be making some closing uh remarks and so I just wanted to say a few things first uh to our Witnesses I want to thank all of you for uh for being here with us today uh I know that um it takes a lot a lot of Courage um you're telling um a really important information to this committee and I just want to thank you also for your all three of your service to our country um I also want to just note that today's hearing um was both important but also serious and I want to thank our subcommittee chairman Mr groffman I think for for running a very fair and substantive hearing I do want to thank the committee staff on both sides for the amount of work that it took to put this hearing in place um and certainly to all the members that have been involved in this issue prior to prior to the hearing I also want to note for our Witnesses and for the public that I'm I'm a freshman member of Congress and I've only been here for seven months but this is by far the most bipartisan conversation and discussion that I have seen happen in the Congress and I think that a topic of this significance as it relates to our national security as it relates to information that we're trying to gather for the for the for the American public uh does bring people together and I think that's been really great uh to see um I think it's also important to note for the public we today in our hearing we had on our side also both are full uh ranking member which is Mr Raskin and our vice ranking member which is Miss ocasio-cortez uh both here at our hearing I think it shows the importance and seriousness that um our side of the aisle is taking to this important hearing but also the broader issue as it relates to working with our Republican counterparts on this committee um I want to additionally add that I think and I encourage I think it's really important that we have and continue these discussions and these hearings clearly there's a lot of information that we don't know but it's also very clear that we have to continue our investigation and accountability on asking the right questions and ensuring that they're part of the public record one thing that was important today is some folks might wonder I mean why are we asking questions that might already be out there or that have been asked before it's important that their ass and put into the public record as it relates to this committee and so I want to thank you for I'm you know answering some questions multiple times I know not just in maybe meetings you had with some members but also here in in the public let me also just add an additional note that it's important also that our um our friends in the media and those that are not just reporting on this hearing but that reporter on this topic that may in the future the media has an important role uh in this process and it's very important that the media engages does independent investigation and reports on not just what happened today but what they what they see independently as what has happened around uaps in the broader community that is also an important um public benefit that we have in trying to get the information and the facts as it relates uh to this let me also just say finally that as a as a teacher and an educator in a long time uh uh a long time teacher and researcher that I also really believe in following facts in doing your homework and making sure that you follow science uh as we try to get as much information as possible and so I want to thank you all for for agreeing to do that today transparency is a Cornerstone of government we live in a vast Galaxy a lot of unanswered questions and thank you all for being here today Mr chairman I'd like to one more time thank uh Mr Merchant Ms Luna for bringing this to our attention it's a topic that has interest me since I was in school uh it was a very Illuminating uh hearing obviously I think several of us are going to look forward to getting some answers in a more confidential setting I assume some legislation will come out of this uh I sure I apologize Mr chairman I need to compliment the folks in my office that did a lot of the work on this of Rachel and Noah sitting behind me here they're very quiet and humble but if without them this thing would not have come off like it did so I apologize thank you um I think we're going to want to look into what we can do to make more of this information public I think there's certainly a time period after which it should always be made public and people have been concerned about these issues like I said since I was in high school um but in any event like to thank everybody who was here sticking through through the entire hearing without objection the members will have five legislative days to submit materials and to submit additional written questions for the witness Witnesses which will be forward to the witnesses for their response if there's no further Business Without objection the subcommittee stands adjourned