72. Skinwalkers at the Pentagon - with COLM A. KELLEHER (Part 2-2)

Transcript

hello everybody welcome to the second part of my conversation with colin kelleher author of brain trust hunt for the skinwalker and skinwalkers at the pentagon we're now seguing from our conversation on the connection between alzheimer's mad cow disease and cow mutilations to discuss the topic of the paranormal and of course the paranormal investigations my guest was involved with at a remote ranch in utah's uinta basin on with the conversation [Music] [Music] the scientific method um and i had initially asked you about it on the email too uh because it doesn't seem like a lot of what went down there and what happens with other in other places is it doesn't really lend itself to repeats and it seems like with seti for example they want the wow signal to repeat for it to matter and right now so far the wow signal hasn't repeated and so it does certain concessions need to be made for the subject matter to be investigated yeah that's a very good point actually and and that is that is something we wrestled with you know throughout this this this whole program and and you know it was a an exercise in frustration trying to get repeatability and reproducibility because whatever was doing this and we still to this day have really no firm idea of what was behind all of these cattle mutilations cattle disappearances uh ufo activity discarnate voices poltergeist activity bizarre creatures showing up i mean the the list goes on and on but we had no we have no fixed idea on who was behind this or what was behind this so um we were tasked with sticking to scientific methodology um and and you know we deployed a lot of sophisticated sensors in different areas of the property and one example is you know we would we would um we would have a whole bunch of sensors deployed around a specific area that had you know activity in the the previous nights or the previous weeks and then we would deploy a lot of a lot of focus and then find the next day or two that a whole bunch of activity had happened on the very end of the the opposite end of the ranch outside the sphere of where the humans and the uh and the people were were focused so it was almost like we were playing cat and mouse with something that knew what we were doing and that was very evasive and very deceptive and very sort of very well skilled in being able to camouflage itself and if it didn't want to be discovered it it wouldn't be discovered but there was quite a lot of occasions when we actually came face to face with stuff that we couldn't explain so you know i mean but that was always outside our control and also outside our ability to repeat things usually happen very quickly unexpectedly and in areas that we you know we we were not sort of prepared at all times and we did you know trained to be more prepared as time went on it was kind of like the scientific method was shown to be sort of uh inadequate in terms of fully describing what was on the property i mean one of the things that i had done in my previous career in mainstream science was publish a lot of papers and peer-reviewed scientific journals so i knew how the system worked and um you know you gather the data you reproduce it you get the the best possible data and then you present it to a peer-reviewed journal and they critique it and you resubmit and then the paper is published well um there was nothing that we got in the sort of six years of boots on the ground on skin marker ranch that could have been gone through the process of peer-reviewed publication in a refereed scientific journal it just that the data were too sporadic they were not reproducible so we we were kind of left with a lot of sporadic data but nothing that could be published well i feel like there's there's some instances and all across all these texts where i feel like you could apply some level of reason and say okay well if this many people who are unrelated are seeing this certainly there's something to that so for example um going all the way back to the gorman family and that crazy wolf it's reminiscent of something i read in in a more recent in the more recent texts where a hitchhiker made its way onto someone's property and i think it was described also as a wolf or having flight features exactly i mean that's the sort of strange part of this whole whole thing i mean what what really um separated skin walkers at the pentagon from the previous studies we've done was that here we had an official united states government program the department of of defense defense intelligence agency um 22 million dollars were allocated through the defense intelligence agency for this program so we had a lot of resources and we were we were able to hire a lot of people um and and some of the people that were on this uh skin walker ranch were actually sent from the defense defense intelligence agencies kind of like a um a field a field trip in order to investigate to see if if this you know what this was going on in this branch had any validity if it had any intelligence value or if there was anything uh you know properly associated with it was it was kind of like um standard operating procedure for the united states government is is to deploy people to the area so you know to to look into what was actually going on so on during the the program which was a two-year contract with the defense intelligence agency there were five separate united states government people who were deployed onto the property from different um different departments somewhere from the navy somewhere from the marine corps some somewhere were from the intelligence agencies but what was remarkable about this was that all five people who were deployed on skinwalker ranch had really bizarre in your face phenomena happening to them right on the property and secondly as you alluded to um all five of them brought weird stuff home to their families so what happened was they you know they would have a an experience on the property and then fly back to maryland or washington or somewhere on the east coast from which they from whence they are originally deployed and then a couple of weeks later their wives or their spouses or their kids would suddenly start encountering these black humanoid shadows that would would would appear over their beds in their bedrooms uh there would be orbs of light sort of um you know moving through the walls and moving into their bedrooms sometimes blue sometimes red sometimes white these things were the size of of uh baseballs they moved silently um and sometimes you know they caused injuries on on people you know they actually caused injuries but um part of this uh effect that these people seem to have brought back to their families included sightings of these bizarre creatures and remember we're talking about um what are called tssci cleared and these are top secret special compartmented information cleared people who are high-level people in the united states government and in the military these were very very highly qualified people um who had been in afghanistan who had been in iraq who were used to confronting fear and um so some of the the stuff that erupted in their homes caused them um to really fear of what was going on one example was um you know after that the guy who we call axelrod in the book in in in skinwalkers at the pentagon book uh went home to his family um a few weeks later his wife was just shutting up uh shutting the uh all the lights down it was like 11 30 at night and she was just about to turn the lights in the backyard down when she saw this creature that was standing beside a tree looking at her and she looked at it closely she kind of leaned forward and focused on it and this thing was looked like a wolf standing on two legs leaning against the the tree and it was like she just couldn't believe her eyes i mean this was in suburban virginia and you know she didn't say anything about it it completely freaked her out it unnerved her um she looked away and then she looked back and that the creature was still there and it was obviously staring at her in a unfriendly way so at that stage it turned around and just walked back into the tree line and vanished and she just literally couldn't believe her eyes didn't say anything to the rest of her family she did not want to freak them out but then three days later her two teenage sons were in the in the living room um of their same house when one of them noticed movement out the backyard this was on a saturday morning 10 a.m broad daylight and standing in the backyard was this bizarre looking wolf-like creature again standing on two legs staring at the at the kids and the other kid sort of also saw it and once they locked eyes again this creature looked very unfriendly hostile it began running towards the tree line on two legs which is anatomically impossible i mean if you look if you put a german shepherd on two legs it can at best totter one or two steps so it's anatomically impossible for a a large wolf-like creature to run on two legs but that's exactly what this creature did and not only that it blew up a whole bunch of leaves that were on the ground so this was not sort of some kind of uh you know sort of apparition it was having a physical effect on the leaves on the ground and so it ran towards the tree the tree line and vanished so the teenagers called out to the the family you know they were kind of panicked they didn't know what to make of what this was and so the mother came in and um you know what they described was very very similar to what she had seen three three nights before so they the family then walked out into the backyard down to where the she showed exactly where this creature was uh standing by the tree and on the tree bark there were these obvious claw marks on the bark of the tree um i mean the the implication was that this creature had made you know strong deep claw marks on the tree so again this was evidence that this wasn't sort of some kind of weird human perception thing it wasn't an apparition there was something physical about what had happened in their backyard and so this was one of dozens of examples that this family and this this guy who was um you know promoted up the ranks because obviously he didn't talk about any of this stuff um at work because it was so bizarre and so so outside what had happened but this guy was very high level in the uh in the navy department of the navy um you know we're not talking about somebody who has i mean he was very high level had top secret security clearances all five out of five people who were on the skinwalker ranch property during that government program they all had dramatic effects and they all brought this quote-unquote hitchhiker behind to their homes and so not only the kids saw it but also neighbors um of this family started reporting weird stuff happening all these blue orbs flying around their their house and even school kids who were friends with these two kids who did not talk about what they had seen but their school friends started talking about they were starting to see or see weird stuff outside their homes so we speculate in the book in skinwalkers at the pentagon that you know this thing is behaving like some kind of an infectious entity the the guy you know gets infected on the property brings it home to his family his family starts seeing weird stuff and then their neighbors start saying weird stuff and then the the school kids start seeing weird stuff so it's almost like an infectious organism is moving out into the neighborhoods and that's not the only time we saw that we saw that multiple times of of this infectious behavior of something that originated on skinwalker ranch and then moving out into the into the neighborhoods can you talk about the black triangles for a little bit because i got to tell you bro i have been obsessed with these things since i was in high school actually probably middle school is when the unsolved mysteries episode came out about it it was in the 90s and sometimes they're depending on the source that that they're different from the chevrons that were seen in the hudson river valley but some people say they're the same things and i was one i just wanted to get your take on it because you have a whole chapter dedicated to the black triangles right there's a whole chapter in the skin workers of the pentagon devoted to the black triangles yeah well you know the organization that i was talking about that looked into anomalies that looked into calculations neds um we also looked at black triangles and you know we were very very fortunate that um you know in 2001 we we had this sort of illinois it was a very famous case of of four separate police officers had witnessed this black black triangle going over their their heads so some of them took photographs i mean the photographs weren't weren't particularly good but we deployed a team of including a a retired fbi agent a retired air force officer special investigations agent out to illinois we interviewed all of the witnesses and there were um over a dozen witnesses that had seen the progress of this low-flying black triangle that had appeared um and and then actually it was about 4 a.m that it started and then the last sighting was after 6 a.m so it was it was in the air for over two hours different police precincts there were four different police precincts who had seen it had tracked it had had driven their vehicles in pursuit of it so this was a really good case and and it became kind of legendary in the in the black triangle sort of investigations um but you know so nits became a sort of a central uh data clearing house for this whole phenomenon we got literally hundreds of cases and reports of these black triangles from all over the country from the united states and also from europe um there was a a lot of famous cases that had erupted in in europe particularly in belgium and in in france um so we were privy to a lot of this data and the the sort of the central feature of this um this phenomenon was that these enormous triangular shaped objects that were silent usually brightly lit would be flying at very very low speeds sometimes 30 40 miles an hour very low over these populated neighborhoods over interstate highways uh and we're when i say low altitude we're talking sometimes uh just over treetop level i mean we're not talking sort of a couple of thousand feet up we're talking about really low i mean we had multiple witnesses um who told us that this thing was so low as it was coming towards them that they started running because they were sure it was so low it was going to crash into you know the neighborhood um they thought it was it was just so so bizarre um so over the years we accumulated like i said hundreds of these cases um they were all very very similar um and they were all sort of overload the populated neighborhoods flying um dangerously low silent um and and then they would be capable of extreme levels of acceleration where they could accelerate from a practically standing position to vanish within a second or two so they had these um really high level performance characteristics and so that you know the big question was always in everybody's minds from the start of the 1980s all the way through to about 2010 when these triangles were flying everywhere was this a united states special access program or was this some sort of you know was this from somewhere else quote unquote and you know throughout all of the the time that we investigated these cases and all of the we literally um interviewed hundreds of witnesses uh to these these things um we came to the conclusion that there was really very little chance that the united states government would be so foolhardy as to you know fly these um extremely large experimental aircraft very low very brightly lit over highly populated neighborhoods and highly highly populated interstate highways for what purpose i mean there was i mean this this was not a single flight of a of a top secret secret aircraft this was hundreds of different flights all over the united states and over europe so we came to the conclusion that these were not ours you know these were these were not ours and one of the chapters in uh skin markers of the pentagon we specif specifically talk about this case where you know a guy is in in a small town in georgia rural georgia comes out because his son and their friends are are uh are sleeping in a tent overnight he has a 10 year old son and friends and you know the dog is barking crazily so he walks out and he sees one of these huge triangular things that that's literally parked over his uh his property and um it's moving very very slowly but it's gigantic it's the size of a football field uh and so he tries taking um you know video camera of fro using a cell phone um his cell phone doesn't work all of the electronics die in the in the cell phone which is very usual behavior for this stuff bottom line is he he he goes inside grabs a high powered flashlight runs back out of it and illuminates the the object with the flashlight instantly he turns on the flashlight he gets uh this beam from the underside of the of this gigantic craft hits him with this blue light um he feels burning on his skin almost immediately um turns around crouches to get away from the thing he feels the back of his neck burning so he he ducks inside it i mean he he you know he's really scared but whatever this blue beam that comes from this object is really hurting him so you know he uh he he spent the rest of the the time in his house this this object then eventually took off at a fantastic speed um but you know he he woke up the following day with a really severe headache and uh he had burns on the back of his neck sunburn on the back of his neck he started losing his hair over time we our organization uh with the defense intelligence agency contract had two contract physician scientists who were md phd so they were well versed in investigation of medical injuries so we dispatched one of these guys who spent a lot of time with interviewing this guy this guy had metallic taste in his mouth his hair started falling out he you know the physician scientist took photographs of him we had other investigators take photographs of him i mean he was losing his hair he had multiple blood tests at uh at the local hospital he had really low red cell counts and white cell counts um you know if we didn't know better he was suffering from some kind of radiation injury uh non-ionizing radiation industry injuries so we had the the fortune to have these uh medical people md phds were able to follow this kind of medical injury case over weeks and months over the weeks and months this guy developed a whole bunch of weird tumors he got really sick and then slowly after about a year he started recovering but we were able to take multiple blood samples over time and we were able to document an extensive detail um on all of this auction you know all this medical data was um protected by the hipaa laws which is you know the privacy laws and our our physician uh scientists operated strictly under hipaa so this guy's identity can never be revealed but you know the fact is we were able to track his the health status and his health deteriorated dramatically after this encounter with this huge triangle over his house when he got hit by this weird blue beam now again was this one of ours or was it you know one of theirs i mean why would a united states um experimental aircraft um be radiating a united states citizen on their own property for no other reason than they shot a flashlight at it i mean what's the purpose of that there was you know again we went through this whole exercise of what is the agenda of of something like this and again we concluded that the chances are united states government deployed aircraft would never be as foolhardy as to deploy something like this over some guy's property irradiate cause a medical injury um you know non-ionizing radiation the guy's her falls out and he eventually recovers but he gets very sick for a long time as a result of this encounter so again that's sort of a codex to the black triangle phenomenon it's not always healthy you know it's not always good for your health when you have encounters like this well you know well i mean the the thing about the it seems i can't buy into the idea that it's government either because it just seems overkill for pointing a flashlight yeah you know it's just like that's something that somebody who doesn't think on our level would do exactly i mean if if you had a drone or a robot that was programmed to react a certain way maybe you could you know maybe you could sort of get your head around that that that kind of dramatic overreaction uh that it was some sort of pre-programmed response but it makes absolutely no sense it defies common sense for somebody if if that was a manned uh aircraft and it was an experimental aircraft from the united states government to to react in that way is just is just defies common sense blue uh seems to be a recurring uh horrible color for people encountering these things whether it's an orb or a beam i mean those blue orbs that that people encounter and we have several instances in in skin markers of the pentagon where we describe um these encounters with blue orbs pretty well universally they are not good for your health i mean if you know if you see a blue orb i would say run the other way because um we we document a number of times in in the book where um blue orbs cause medical injuries you know if they get too close and we've we've had instances of blue orbs going all the way back to skinwalker ranch uh where they injured you know killed killed uh three three dogs um that that were getting too close to them we also had instances at you know skinwalker the pentagon where we described this biotechnologist who was driving with his daughter towards bend oregon and sees these three blue ufos in the field next to next to them as they're driving and they start moving towards the car pretty quickly uh two of them actually come into the car one of them goes right across the dashboard in front of of the two of them but one of them comes in through the window and enters this guy's left shoulder as he's driving goes through the top of his body and exits his right shoulder right in front of his daughter his daughter is in the passenger seat and it goes right out the window but you know it goes right through this guy's body and and and exits the right shoulder and so again we have this sort of uh we we deployed the md phd medical investigators that we had on on this case too and they you know these these two were followed for several months and actually the main person the main guy was followed for years medically we had serial blood samples but bottom line is this this guy almost immediately after this event you know when he got got got to his place in bend oregon started having these symptoms and um you know his uh the left side of his uh of his face had this sunburn effect uh he lost the use of his eye it started watering and his eye left eye started going bad his left ear started going bad hair started falling out from the left side of his head after this thing had gone through his body he came down with a rare form of ductal cancer which luckily did not metastasize but you know within a few months this guy was really sick so we were able to monitor um him with the aid of his uh with the these medical positions and we collaborated with the physicians that were treating them you know in in oregon and we documented sort of a vast amount of changes in the immune system uh changes in the and the guys physical health eventually recovered from the ductal form of cancer luckily it was not metastatic and so um you know a few years later was feeling a lot better but the weird thing about his daughter who had you know had a close encounter she did not have any ill effects but you know she was in college and then she went back to the east coast to um you know to be with her her roommates and the same kind of hitchhiker effect erupted in her household she had never been anywhere close to skinwalker ranch but all she had was this close encounter with these weird blue orbs but um all of her roommates back in on the east coast in connecticut where she was going to college uh started reporting you know waking up with these creatures that were standing over them in their bedrooms and sort of these loud footsteps on the stairs outside their rooms uh orbs of light sort of moving through the house again the same kind of thing the so-called uh hitchhiker effect um she went back from oregon to the east coast and brought something with her but it was nothing to do with skinwalker ranch so we figured out eventually that in terms of methodology you've got to follow these people for months or years in order to really document what the effects of these phenomena are as opposed to you know you go out you take their testimony for a weekend and then you move on to the next case you'll miss all of that though those kinds of effects and so we were lucky to have the 22 million dollars through the defense intelligence agency to investigate all of this uh all of these phenomena because we were able to deploy these kinds of resources for a couple of years and so that made a huge effect i think on the on the overall program yeah it sounds a lot like i mean i've heard for years that people who have experiences as as young people will often have them again as adults and it's almost as if they get the sense that they're recognized like they know who saw what at what point in their life and returned and it almost feels like it's the same i mean you use the word methodology that whatever this is has the same mechanism or methodology to be able to track who's who and who are they related to and who are they friends where are they and it's so spooky yeah i agree with that i mean i i think there's lots of evidence for people having these kinds of experiences as kids and then yeah they they also have experiences during their teens and all the way into adulthood and it's almost um in a lot of cases it seems to occur in families too you know the grandparents have you know have these strange activities in their lives their their offspring have same kinds of phenomena and then attracts even into a third generation and you can see that the same thing happened in the grand in the grandkids that has been documented lots of different times it's it's almost like as you say um you know some kind of tracking mechanism is happening where people who have these effects seem to be predisposed to have more more of them and also their family members seem to have um it's almost like it transmits genetically yeah and i'm predisposed to that uh idea because um me plus two other people in my family tend to have pre precognitive dreams and i've made a conscious effort to track how the hell that has ended up in our our family and unfortunately i don't have a solid sort of family tree to lean in on but i know it comes from my mother's side and i find that interesting and i think there's something to that too i i definitely think that a lot of a lot of what we've come across is maternally transferred from grand grandmother to uh daughter or you know granddaughter or daughter granddaughter so um it does seem to transmit maternally not always but but um it's very common for a long time i thought there were rules it seemed like it was okay for these things to kill animals they could mess with humans all they want they could destroy their economic system they could destroy their psycho their psychology but then i i read about the brazilian black boxes and now i'm i no longer comfortable in in these sort of false rules i had for myself so that i could sleep at night uh and i was wondering if you could talk a little bit about what do you think that there are rules or do you think that like maybe the black boxes aren't i mean i've never even heard of the black boxes until i read one of your books the the black boxes you're referring to were called chupas um by the the local hunters and a lot of this activity happened in in kolaris island off the northeast coast of brazil back in the late 1970s but and and i would say there were people who died as a result of these interactions getting zapped by these uh beams from from craft that used to show up tremendously frequently but if you look at the entire sort of scope of this phenomenon this ufo phenomena if you want to use that word um since say 1947 when ken kenneth arnold first saw these things um and it became sort of into public awareness so 75 years it's been going on out of out of that 75 years it's really the exception rather than the rule that people are killed people are killed there are a lot of people who get too close to these things and have medical injuries but you um rarely come across except for that calaris island series of incidents where people are so badly injured they get killed and you know the question is over time is is we we have a lot of data on what the performance characteristics of these objects are we've accumulated a lot of data in the last 75 years everything from radar tracks to ground traces performances but we have almost no data in terms of what their agenda or intent is and you know it may be that if people get clue too close to these objects for example the the guys the guy and his daughter that i just talked about in oregon and the medical injuries happen is that as a result of them being in the wrong place at the wrong time or is there some kind of intent there and um i don't think there's enough data even in 75 years to say that these are deliberately attacking people i i would tend to say um that we don't have enough data on the agenda quote-unquote of these objects it's it's so i think it's an open question i think it may be that a lot of these people are in the wrong place at the wrong time and that you know whatever is interacting with humanity may not mean it harm necessarily um it's just that you know people who get too close to some of these things um end up injured yeah that's that's the impression i guess so like the black boxes i think it was there was a a sentence in there about how maybe the he was too close to a beam that was set for stun or something like that or um there was one instance i remember reading about i don't remember which one it was in where some woman was driving on on a road and it looked like the ship was malfunctioning and she thought jesus was going to come out of the light so she stayed and looked at it and i'm thinking don't jesus isn't coming out don't stay and look at it and uh she ended up with cancer right yeah that's right that was that happened in texas yeah so and i think also with that i forget his name it was a very famous case they made a movie on with the logger who got abducted uh travis walton he later came to the conclusion that um they were trying to help him because he was too close to the ship so even though it was horrifying for him he now thinks that they were trying to restore his health yeah and and i i think there are a lot of instances um of that kind of um you know where where there's there's evidence that you know the upshot of some of these people you know they they have healings for example um as a result of interacting with uh with some of these things so it's not all doom and gloom and and so it there seems to be a variety of interactions with these objects that can cause you know people's life lives to change in sometimes a good way you know sometimes that you know people are so overcome by shock and horror at sort of experiencing something that should never never be real um that you know they can't handle it and that that's obviously another set of um you know um occurrences and consequences that happen but you know i don't see any evidence that there's a deliberate attempt to harm humans um um in any consistent way how important are stories in all this what what do they play any kind of role in creating your own methodologies for example the skinwalker goes all the way back to to legend and then then you have your local local myths oh well i heard that you know this thing happened on this property at that time or whatever our stories an important role in helping you figure out kind of a what's going on in terms of a continuity there's a a guy called jacques ballet who has written some very influential books in this in this field and by by this field i mean the general topic of anomalies and ufos and sort of things that should not happen you know the sort of uh what jeffrey kripal from rice university calls the impossible you know the impossible happens but you know one of the books that jacques vale wrote was was one called messengers of deception it was written in the 1970s was pretty influential and essentially his whole um premise was that the ufo topic does operate at the cultural level and it operates via um you know having having dramatic effects on people's lives in different ways you've got different manifestations of these objects you've even got people who are claiming to be contactees quote unquote who can um have charisma and form you know religious cults and so um i you know to use your terminology the stories of these sort of encounters can permeate into um you know small groups of people and then ever larger groups of people like the raelian the so-called raelian movement that happened in france from this guy who originally was contacted by quote unquote aliens i mean there are thousands of people in the raelian movement done as a global movement but it's a quasi-religious movement that's based on the original contact experience of of uh of a single person so these kinds of stories do generate myths and um they can transmit to through populations and one of the premises of vale's books is is that you know you can form you can have new religions formed as a result of contact experiences and the the way these uh experiences are promulgated is mostly verbally and it is through through stories you know the there was a famous um currency in fatima portugal where where these kids who who allegedly uh saw the virgin mary uh repetitively the crowds got bigger every time they reported seeing these uh these visions of the virgin mary and so the final episode sort of the culmination of many many weeks of this thing was this gigantic crowd uh formed in fatima portugal and um you know a ufo appeared and uh this object it was like sort of it looked like um a gigantic disc and it was brightly lit and that all sorts of weird light phenomena happened but like five to ten thousand people were witness to this in 1917 and you know it all got mixed in with the appearance of of of the blessed virgin mary and so there was a sort of a a religious connotation i mean the fatima um fatima you know visions were were sort of i think they were um counted as miracles in the uh in the in the catholic church but this is an example of a of a sort of a borderline phenomenon that looks like a ufo that was sort of layered over a religious visitation and so promulgation of that i mean for the fatima 1917 sightings were seen as a you know a dramatic occurrence of a quasi-religious phenomenon and you can see you know a lot of that of the original biblical stories have been you know interpreted by some people as as you know the original contact experience had some sort of narratives that were very very parallel to what people see now i have some closing questions for you i meant to write just a few and i ended up with the whole page really um have you been following the current proceedings on the ranch after the acquisition by brandon fuegle yeah to an extent um yeah i've interacted with brandon fugle quite a few times and and you know it's interesting the team that he deployed on the on the property were extremely skeptical at the very beginning and this is in march of 2016 they took over um so it's been five years now there's been um at least two seasons of the secrets of skinwalker ranch on the history channel tv but much of what was experienced by the the original gorman family back in the early 90s subsequently experienced by all of the ned's investigators their technical people and all of the people who visited the ranch followed by the government investigators that were deployed as part of the osap program in in skinwalkers of the pentagon and then finally brandon fugel's team on the skin worker ranch the the reproducibility of of all of these phenomena is staggering over a 25-year year period i mean there it's almost like um instead of getting reproducibility in the short term the kinds of phenomena that have been seen by brandon fugal's team is are similar to what have been seen by the defense intelligence agency investigators and also by the national institute for discovery science investigators and also by the the the gorman family back in the 1994 period and you know we we've tracked the previous owners of the property that that had skin marker ranch before the gorman family was was on the property and there's a lot of evidence that these same phenomena go all the way back into the 50s the 40s and it goes all the way back even into the 1930s so you know we're looking at sort of something that has happened continuously brandon fugel's team you know have have been pretty innovative and pretty um you know pretty um i would say they've deployed a lot of new technology they've been creative um and but they're they're experiencing some very very similar phenomena they have not got explanations for those phenomena there's a lot of hypotheses just like the allsop program under the defense intelligence agency generated a number of hypotheses needs generated a number of hypotheses but you know in terms of testability nothing is definitive you know but they are consistent i mean there's been a 25-year documented history on skin marker ranch that is reproducible and consistent prior to buying it he was warned that the government wouldn't release some of their findings to him and as there's some some of it still classified and for aspects of the studies that are still classified why why do you think this is and what is the purpose of withholding information about about this well you know that the original contract with the defense intelligence agency that started in 2008 and terminated in 2010 i mean that there are really three aspects to this that are that are sort of make it more difficult to release the information you know just automatically and that is number one the um the defense intelligence agency contracted a um a private contractor to do this this work private contractor delivered you know over a hundred reports uh to the defense intelligence agency on the activity and not only on skinwalker ranch but also elsewhere and so all of that is subject to contractor um proprietary contractor language in the in the original contract that's item number one item number two is that in order to release all of this data especially the databases that were accumulated you would have to go through them and remove all of the medically sensitive information the hipaa related information personal identity protection protected information that's item number three so um you know prior to us uh releasing the book uh skin markers at the pentagon we had to submit this to the pentagon for review so four separate agencies within the pentagon reviewed it including intelligence agencies and they stipulated that a lot of these names of active duty military people active duty government people had to be changed there were offices that the names of officers had to be removed so the department of the defense of defense uh went through a line-by-line review of skin workers at the pentagon before it was released so they stipulated a lot of um removals a lot of information that was sensitive and or classified was removed from the from the book prior to its publication so those same stipulations also hold for release of this information you know provided a team of people went through every one of those hundred reports many of which are over 100 pages and also the the large database went through every case in that database again all of the personally protected information would have to be removed all of the medically sensitive information would have to be removed but if that was done which would be a long process but if that was done then that information probably could be released as a taxpayer a 100 support going through this process and releasing all that stuff it's difficult but it's doable yeah someday okay so i i posted uh on my facebook hey i'm going to be interviewing author of these books who was on skinwalker ranch and if anybody has any questions and some people had some questions and so one of them is it's about disclosure some say full disclosure on the ufo matter has begun so do you think it's a b it's begun or do you think that the the release of that navy video is just a fluke and if it has begun what are the socio-political and economic ramifications of this becoming a normally accepted thing in our culture well i i think you know june 25th 2021 when the office of of um department of national intelligence odni released this report to the public involving 144 cases of interactions between military pilots and and um f-18 pilots and and also their carrier strike groups on either end of the both east coast and west coast that was a a turning point in the history of how the united states government treats this phenomenon because before that i mean they basically said in that report that number one ufos are real they're not fantasies they're not people who are on drugs or mentally ill um they are real number two they constitute an earth safety concern um that was new and three they they potentially constitute a national security issue so the fact that the united states government came forward um and and said this to the public um was a complete departure from the previous 75 years where witnesses were regularly sort of labeled as drunks and mental incompetence and sort of people have to be crazy to you know talk about ufos the other thing is that the united states government admitted that they had been studying ufos even though the the standard line from the united states air force and from other departments had been we lost interest in ufos in 1969 when we stopped project blue book and the um you know the the condon ufo report put an end to all of our interest in ufos that was not true i mean they've been studying ufos all along and the program the 22 million dollar program that we were part of is one of those programs and so the fact that they actually released for the public record that ufos are real is a form of confirmation i wouldn't call it disclosure but it was confirmation that what a lot of people are seeing and have been seeing for 75 years plus is real so it's not a it's not some kind of fantasy and they're not mentally ill but it's real so that's about as far i think as the united states government is going to go i don't see them going beyond that because um you know what are they going to disclose um they've already disclosed sort of a short version that ufos are real they have no idea who these are who what these are who these are or they have no idea of a lot of the details of what would follow in quote-unquote disclosure uh plus there's uh there's an enormous body of classified work behind which this whole topic has hidden for decades that is never going to see the light of day and so the united states government coming forward and saying ufos are real i think that is probably you know as far as they will go sorry about the cat by the way i know you can be distracting yeah i'm allergic to cats so that's probably why i'm coughing he just keeps yeah i'm just psychological psychological yeah that's right um the hypothetical part the part of your brain that comes up with you know could hypothetically be this or that has that changed in any kind of ways from before you were with knits to after i guess i guess the person wants to know if you're more open-minded that's the impression i get from the question you know i i think my um my view on this phenomenon has evolved over time i think when i first sort of started with ned's and this is 25 years ago back in 1996 i guess i had a pretty simplistic view that you know extraterrestrials were flying in spaceships to um to earth they were taking samples and they were conducting scientific expeditions i think the ufo phenomenon is way more complex than that and i think my view at this time is that there is there's a lot more to be done in in investigating the ufo phenomenon than i had realized because i think what what we really sort of pioneered during the um the defense intelligence agency funded program was the idea that um not only could you just look at ufo performance you could also look at ufo effects on humans and you could you could document physiological effects you could document medical injuries you could document psychological effects and then all the way out to paranormal effects so that was a departure that had never been done before and so that has really opened the doors because um that you know i mean sporadic data had been taken but nothing as comprehensive and as meticulous as had happened under that government uh program and they have all the data on this they own over 100 reports some of which were over 100 pages so thousands upon thousands of pages of reports are owned by the defense intelligence agency on these not only the ufo performance and how electromagnetic spectra were monitored magnetic fields were changed and electromagnetic effects but also on medical injuries and physiological psychological paranormal effects so it's a very rich information source that was begun with this program and you may be aware that the national defense authorization act just got past the senate and there's a particular amendment in that ndaa written by new york senator kristen gillibrand which is almost a carbon copy of the uh the awesome program uh that the defense intelligence agency program in other words whoever wrote that language i don't know it was it was senator gillibrand or one of her staffers um i think there was a lot of in the of what's in our book skin workers of the pentagon that showed up in the in the gila brand amendment it makes me think that they want to get serious about ufos and they also want to go beyond just sort of documenting um the physics and the engineering behind the ufos they're also interested in documenting effects on humans because they specifically use the language in the amendment like monitoring adverse physical effects um we're going to deploy field field investigation teams we're going to have um you know effects on on medic medical injuries so um it makes me think that you know and obviously the devil is going to be in the details if it actually turns out that the gillibrand amendment becomes law and is actually adopted uh within the uh the pentagon then it stands a good chance that some kind of repeat of the asap program is possible and that's that's something that would that i would never have imagined 25 years ago in terms of my thinking the idea that the united states government in 20 june 25th 2021 would actually say to the public ufos are real i mean that's something i would never have imagined 25 years ago some part of me was this past year even i was just like i wish heineck was alive to see this yeah i mean i mean he would have really he would have celebrated i think i mean again nobody would have expected this do you think that we're this is another facebook question it's the last facebook question and then i'll have one more for you from me are humans interfered with or are we just interacted with well interference and interaction is in the eye of the beholder right i mean there there's there's still a lot of people who are having a lot of very intense experiences uh with ufo phenomena and with so-called entities associated with ufo phenomena if you ask those people um their answer is we're being interfered with uh if you ask the people who are having interactions with ufos from say a hundred yards away they see a brightly lift lit craft they you know they may or may not have physiological effects i would say they would answer interacted with but i i you know i guess that the short answer to that question is all of the above i think there are people who are being profoundly affected you know john mack who was a harvard um psychiatry you know head of the the psychiatry department at harvard who spent a lot of time looking at these quote unquote abductions and came to the conclusion that these people were not mentally ill they were actually reporting something real in their lives well if you believe those people and he looked at hundreds of people um you know people are um undergoing intrusive procedures that are extracting you know a sperm and eggs from their from their physical bodies against their will so these people are definitely having intrusive procedures performed on them so that's beyond interact interactions if you believe those people um you know i mean it's a very intense um interaction what do you what would you like to see from people in the ufo community it uh and the reason i'm asking this is the final question is because it seems to me like people are just waiting for more document releases or somebody somebody else to make a four-year request you know people in the ufo community have had a long it's been a long time and i think it's almost like the dam has broken now as of uh june 25th 2021 we're now in a different era and i guess their expectations are a lot higher than they were you know a few years ago especially you know prior to the new york times article that broke the history on our program um you know their expectations are a lot higher so i think a lot of them are wanting the release of a lot of information but you know you've got to realize that or they have got to realize that the government works very slowly it is very very careful and beyond releasing um non-classified unclassified versions of some of the interactions with uh that are ongoing uh and and activity that's ongoing but on the east and west coast and all over the world actually uh with these objects um there's not a lot that the united states government is probably going to release so i i i think expectations are very very high i think what needs to happen is that the osap program instead of being a two-year program needs to be reinvigorated into a five-year program because uh when when when the department of defense program was terminated after two years we had 50 full-time people that are working on this on this program and out of nowhere this this project was terminated because of political reasons and because people were realizing that this data is gonna you know they were afraid it was gonna show up on the front pages of the new york times sometime and that's exactly what happened eight years later so it was shut down very abruptly this program needs to be uh reinvigorated data needs to be collected for at least five years and then there needs to be a sort of a a release of all possible information to the public um that's not classified and doesn't interact with you know the national security situation i would agree with that that's the only way the taxpayers are going to be okay continuing to finance it i agree um let's say they reinvigorate this thing uh and it's five years and this question also applies to i guess the formation of nids it could be any one of these organizations how do you go about recruiting for something like this like what are you looking for kind of people it's uh it is a very good question um you know i i personally interviewed um both by phone by telephone and face to face in about a four and a half month period in 2008 about 300 people when we were doing this massive recruitment drive to populate uh we we recruited phd level scientists we recruited md phds we recruited technicians translators data analysts military intelligence people security officers retired police officers we recruited 50 people in about four and a half months we trained them and we then we started conducting field research and probably and we got them security clearances probably in in the space of what would normally take a contractor two to three years to accomplish we accomplished in about five months because we had to get this program up and running and get start getting data in order to deliver what we were we had promised so it was a really i mean it was a rocket ship um taking off in terms of um but the recruitment process was um luckily that the program itself was not compromised because we recruited the the normal channels but we were looking for professional people and during the interviews we had a sort of a weeding out process where we weeded out people who were you know this was against their religion this was against their their belief system they were they thought all this was fantasy and this kind of thing so we we we had a screening process that we went through and out of the over 300 people i interviewed we hired about 50 people and uh i mean we were like a well-oiled machine after 24 months we were really rocking and rolling on this program and suddenly it was terminated like i said out of nowhere so the same kind of recruitment process the same kind of professionals recruit people if possible with security clearances because that saves a lot of time in terms of um you know reinventing the wheel so um that's what we did and i think that's what should be done again all right okay thanks it was great and uh you're welcome back anytime i love the way you talk thank you i appreciate it i enjoyed it too