Tariffs on ufo tourism? Let's talk it out. | Ufos Chat # 2 - June 30, 2024 (Edited)

Transcript

[Music] good evening the light of the sunset defies all possible human engineering and Technical skill it travels all the way to our planet across the vastness of space and you expect me to believe that it wasn't invented by Ancient Aliens how else could the sun possibly do that and every single day no less what are you going to tell me that it's just so massive and dense that its own gravity is actually capable of fusing unimaginable numbers of hydrogen atoms into helium and then fusing helium atoms into even heavier elements and that this nuclear fusion emits vast amounts of radiation and this process just keeps going without stopping for billions of years look I'm not saying it's aliens but I am saying it's saucer aliens because I have no imagination there go its saucer aliens and these are all the facts do butterflies ever get abducted to strange Realms abducted by the wind and I would really like to get more reports of figures and luminous rectangles on this show please plus is a tip even so like what was a tip again pretty sure a tip's not a thing or whatever all this and more tonight I'm Rachel Nelson Jeff Knox Luis catano welcome to UFO Sunset hello hello do you have any to say for yourself Lis um not really I mean I'm pretty proud okay all right on with the show and now for the re and now for the ultra rebrief so wait there weren't skinwalkers at the Pentagon today viente Juan byos and our own Luis katano published a new extensive piece on the history of the former AAP the advanced Aerospace weapon systems applications program also known by the quote unquote nickname atip the 74 page study is called on the oap atip confusion a link can be found in the episode description and the study was published for free on academia.edu the report discusses how a small group of wealthy businessmen pseudo scientists and promoters manipulated the US Department of Defense in order to promote pseudoscientific topics within the government these individuals were associated with Skinwalker Ranch and the former public project to investigate supposed Paranormal Activity there the National Institute for Discovery Science in this new study the author is used as their essential Source the 2021 book skinwalkers at the Pentagon by Dr James latsky Cole kellerer and George knp the study includes a chronology of UAP study and UAP disclosure in the US government a detailed historical report on oap as well as report of events that transpired in the wake of this program such as the formation of the UAP task force and the more recent formation of the allain anomaly resolution office or Arrow the authors give a brief overview of supposed UAP studies in the US after 2017 in the context of broader UFO history outlining a variety of different balloon Airship and aerial Phantom reports from the late 1700s through to the era of flying saucers they discuss how different alleged UFO sightings are caused by many different physical stimuli and how many are misinterpretations motivated by cultural anxieties and preconceptions of the time and they also make suggestions for how a study like Arrow may be more successful BOS has been studying UFO reports since 1966 and we have discussed his work previously on this program he is the founder of photocat an online catalog of thousands of UFO citing reports and he is the co-editor of the 2023 work the reliability of UFO witness testimony with Richard W heyen Lise is of course one of the hosts of our show he holds a PhD and is affiliated with gabblin college currently he has a background in evolutionary ecology but he was also a host on the invisible night school and he's done various interviews with Scholars and experts and written about issues surrounding the UFO topic especially as it relates to far right and extremist sociopolitical movements a former executive director of muon was found guilty of soliciting a minor Jan harzan the former director of the mutual UFO Network or muon was found guilty by a jury on Thursday for two counts contacting a minor with an intent to commit specified offense and meeting a minor to commit lewd conduct muon is a us-based nonprofit organization whose stated purpose is to investigate UFOs Jack Brewer and Erica luks at expanding Frontiers research reported the story Saturday citing a case summary they obtained from the Orange County Superior Court of California in July of 2020 harzan was arrested in Newport Beach California for eliciting sex from a detective posing as a child online an was removed from his position and muon after his arrest became [Music] public painted lady butterflies fly from West Africa to South America a new study VES a new study published in nature Communications Tuesday used various methods to find that a small group of painted lady butterflies Vanessa cardui flew all the way to South America from West Africa after likely being born in Western Europe the dispersal from Africa to South America was a flight without stopping of 4,200 kilm or about 2600 miles while the migration from Western Europe would make their total Journey 7,000 kilomet or 4,300 miles the study was conducted by a team of researchers from various countries including equal contributing authors Tomas Suka from the Polish Academy excuse me Tomas suchan from the polish from the Polish Academy of Science in kov clemont clemont s batai from the University of Ottawa and Gerard taliva from Harvard the study examines a group of butterflies that were cited and captured in French Guana on the northeast coast of South America the butterflies reportedly arrived on a beach after flying vigorously at around 6:00 a.m. on October 28th 2013 three out of 10 of the Butterflies were captured alive and used in the study the researchers project wind patterns backwards from the time and place where the butterflies were found and find that it was likely these butterflies would have been carried by winds from West Africa the authors also look at the genetics of the specimens and are able to roll R out that these butterflies came from North America where they are also commonly found analysis of pollins on the butterflies Wings find that much of the pollins came from two plants endemic to subsaharan Africa the nectar of which the butterflies likely fed on the authors also examine stable isotope ratios to find that the butterflies were all from the same region and were likely born in Western Europe or else in Northern Africa the authors are unable to determine how the butterflies were able to make such a long flight and conjecture that they must have been assisted by trade winds as well as some form of longdistance flight pattern that relies heavily on gliding to conserve energy they argue that the butterflies were likely accident carried by a quote windborn transatlantic dispersal event unquote their flight the author said likely last their flight the author's add likely lasted 5 to eight days and only the fittest butterfly individuals survived the journey the authors conclude that longdistance dispersal events like these remain mysterious both in terms of how insects are able to survive such events as well as how common they actually are thank you for that than your patience with me knocking stuff off my bookshelf here what is is a b bizar the greatest band for the skin walker these are open m condition oh are those audio books okay no there're are the scores from Jeremy corell's films that I bought in La at the Lazar film Premiere from that band red red blue black silver this it's actually pretty good music as far as the the scores go but I never watch those movies and a presentation on sakuro by Ben Moss and Tony angila that I bought at some point anyways anyways um yes that's a very cool paper very cool paper Louise that you and almost out yeah that took a while to write um I think we started that last year actually and then it sort of just dragged on forever um but you know luckily we were able to release it yesterday even then there were a few little things um one of which you actually pointed to Jeff um about Matthew Cummings being the uh acting director of the AO AO IMS G the one of the precursors of Arrow uh so thanks for that Y and um yeah you had actually like sent me a copy to read and I I actually did read it and I well I read it I had a a text of speech reader read it to me AUD twice and then I read through some of it and I meant to take notes and get back to and then it just kind of slipped my mind so I apologize I never did that but uh it's a good paper and I was reading it again uh yesterday or the night before when whenever it came out anyways yeah it's already got gotten some push back incidentally from um Jack safti oh yeah he was uh lambasting it because we had erroneously said that um John B Alexander has a PhD in physics which he doesn't has got a PhD in education from 1980 yeah but we we corrected that straight away I I don't know whether the erroneous notion came from that he had a PhD uh in physics but we just corrected that and saati was using that as like a reason to basically you know trash the entire paper so uh do you know where he got his PhD at like I would assume it would be like some correspondence program or night school or or something no it was I think it was a legit PhD let me just look it up um where was that Kevin Randall got his PhD from well according to uh Cal K he doesn't actually have one yeah I mean that's but John B Alexander got he's from Walden University okay cool uh that's a private profit online university in Minneapolis Minnesota I don't know anything about that I just for some reason we'd said he had a PhD in physics maybe we conflated his interest in physics and then we saw on his book it says PhD and then we just sort of you know put those together but I don't remember why we said we said that at the beginning but anyway that was a minor mistake that we made saati um by the way for those who don't know he was uh he he's got a corner um I think he a do PhD from Cornell in physics and he talks a lot about UFOs but um he believes that he's being contacted by a UFO from the future he he's so certain that he's got the physics right and Safar is a weird character a very strange guy that has a notorious mailing list that you know once you're on it he never lets you off of it so yeah and he's mentioned in that book by uh uh what's that guy's name David Kaiser the how how the hippies took over physics uh as being part of you know one of those groups of people you know in California in the 70s but I guess there's a lot of question as to how involved he actually was like how much work uh it came from him and uh yeah he's an interesting dude inter sure my mic is just stretching out my shirt I just want to point that out lampshade that in there Lis was my story did it uh did it have any inaccuracies no except um I wouldn't just I wouldn't just say that they studos scientist I mean they've done some actual science but I think that their interests overlap a lot with pseudoscientific and kind of paranormal interest and so like they're whenever they're in that mode or that you know interest area they kind of let's to put it politely they risk doing pseudo science that's but I mean wouldn't you say that like nids was entirely a pseudo scientific Endeavor though yeah yeah pretty much yeah because it it came in with a paranormal expectation the people who were gathered for it were basically they all believed in this stuff and um but I mean Jeff you probably know more about this didn't they themselves um sort of have a few skeptical takes here and there as well yeah yeah absolutely I mean like uh nids for example uh and John Alexander uh the the Corso book they put out a thing saying that was basically J garbage that like these technology developments you know came from actual people over history not from alien spacecraft so there are there are cases where they did come out and say you know like yeah this case is this is nonsense this is bunk but but they did you know also you know Embrace a lot of kind of goofy stuff that's the kind of problem with Scientists is that like just because you have a PhD or scientist doesn't like exclude you from having beliefs in things and when you have that scientific belief you kind of uh you get this bias that you you can't be fooled like a lot of smart people think they can't be ConEd for example and that's exactly why they can be ConEd they put too much belief in their own intelligence to like see through stuff that they just completely miss things and then they can also kind of use those science skills in pursuit of kind of their own confirmation bias and that's what I see with a lot of groups that pretend to be scientific like these scientific UFO organizations that start up and yeah they're all scientists they're all I'm very brilliant people that I'm sure I've done excellent work and whatever the relevant individual fields are but the problem is is that they come into this topic they kind of already believe stuff and then they use those Sciences to kind of shoehorn you know the solutions that they're looking for and they're not really starting off from a unbiased perspective when they're looking at a case and like that's what I see with things like like SCU and other such organizations is that and they kind of start off with the Assumption it's a mystery and then try and try and prove it's a mystery instead of you know trying to come up with a solution uh first before they decid it's a mystery and that's actually one of the critiques we make in the paper is that um bass they were they had like all these cases that they looked at but from a you kind of like um they're taking the most extreme interpretation like they take these sighting reports and then they just assume that those are actual Bonafide space aliens or some other Paranormal Activity and then they go with like the Exotic physics explanations for that I mean I think it's fine to speculate about physics but like you have to distinguish between what's real and what's imagined because like they just basically go with whatever report is out there they assume it's real and then they just go with that and then they go off into like the most speculative you know thought yeah that's that's exactly the issue with a lot of people like they'll reference Uh Kevin new's paper with Robert pal that was uh published in entropy uh on the performance characteristics of like UAP sightings and they look at various sightings and they you know do all this math and physics and figure out the GeForce that would be required and all this other stuff and and it's not that there's anything wrong with their math or any of that stuff it's that they're but they're starting with the assumption that all the details in that original case like you mentioned were true and factually accurate like so it's it's valid Math and Science being done on assumptions that aren't aren't proven basically yeah and so it's just it's it's speculation so as when when they look at all those old cases in those papers for example or like like Kevin newth gives these presentations at SCU over the last couple years while he'll calculate these extreme G forces and accelerations but they're just they're looking at Old cases and assuming those details that are being told are true like assuming it it actually went from here to here in one second like but you don't know that so yeah yeah but it looks good if you're not like a scientist like if you come to this topic and like so that's why people keep referencing these papers and they they in their mind it's almost if they've proven these UFOs are going these speeds and doing these things and it's like no that's just speculative you know work based on assumptions but people don't know that if they don't understand to read the paper and that's kind of always the problem with uh uh you need to be able to communicate science effectively to the public because a lot of times the Public's just completely incapable of understanding the they can't see through the bunk when people dress stuff up in the trappings of Science and that's literally how the entire paranormal entertainment you know uh industry Works basically is dressing things up in the trapping designs making it look like hey we've got these fancy instruments we're doing all this cool stuff out on site like it looks good to the uninitiated uh it looks very scientific and legit but it's not well um congratulations on uh your work Lis I haven't had a chance to really go in depth with it and hopefully I'm going to do that really soon but I have skimmed through the entire thing and I I thought that it was really good um thanks uh so let's move on to Jeff's piece um I'm just going to go over my notes Here uh I just wanted to thank Jeff first of all for helping promote the intellectual rigor and honesty we're trying to um Foster on this show by providing an Arata segment for his Yan wski piece I thought that that was super cool and this is exactly the type of thing we're hoping to promote here I was really intrigued also by Gideon Reed's remark about the ca the Canary Islands case from 1976 which also involved figures seen inside of a Lup inous shape that case was found by was found by viente Juan pester OS and Ricardo compo Paris to likely have been caused by Poseidon missile launches and I know that Gideon has written and talked a lot about this case as well it would be really cool to do a segment on this sometime actually do you think an article a couple days ago a few days ago on it that I highly recommend people check out on his blog uh do you think that there could be similar Optical stimuli at play in both the rosale cases and the Canary Islands case um I don't it's hard to hard to say because with the Canary Islands case you have it's like a dis very very distant kind of like thing that people are seeing uh like rosale you know it's supposedly only 200 feet in front of her and not only do you does she see the light but she sees a separate occupant walking around over there I'm yeah and I don't know what kind of it's hard to think of what kind of natural kind of like light phenomenon or even artificial light phenomenon out there would have caused that yeah it's it's weird I did find uh I was watching a show and kind of found another case that involved a box only it was a it was a Red Box uh instead of like a white bright light it was just like an intense red light uh box and this was more recently in Russia I think back in 2012 and uh the box it kind of went it went from a a straight up box to kind of then being more trapezoidal and she saw a figure standing in it um and had I had time I would have whipped up a slide and put it up but uh so there's there's a few other cases I'm coming across and some other cases that uh sort of sound similar at least in that they sort of just initially see like a bright light or like a a box or and they see figures in it um in some of those cases later on they see more of a structur of The Craft but uh there doesn't seem to be a huge amount of these Square light cases but you know this kind of REM I just popped into my head wasn't there like a 2000 early 2000s case with like police Witnesses spread over a large area where they're seeing these kind of rectangular lighted craft things about the the Illinois uh 2005 that David Marlo investigated uh with all the police yeah the Southern Illinois triangle case thingy yeah um yeah and then of course there are there's plenty of cases that are more like uh uh almost paranor normous Supernatural like portal like cases where people see like doors or doorways like in the forest or whatever um and I actually just watched uh yesterday a new movie uh the Watchers by m uh is it his daughter uh it's produced by ight Shan who did signs and six cents um and it's about uh you know the Watchers or they say some call them Fay or aliens or Angels or whatever uh and there's a basically a doorway that opens up in the forest that uh you know she has to run into and that's when she gets inside the door it's safe but it's kind of like a dimensional doorway portal to like a little pocket world or something that these Watchers keep them in uh but so there's plenty of doorways and portal like cases they're just not really explained as UFOs uh or you know objects that are flying away elsewhere disappearing elsewhere but in thisa in the the rosale case you know she again didn't actually see an object and she never saw anything fly away either she basically just saw that box of light she saw what looked like structure and instrument panels inside the box of light but it really effectively was a doorway if it wasn't for that that burnt scorched Earth that they found on the ground you wouldn't even think it was a craft it would be more just like a paranormal like doorway kind of portal case so interesting does anyone have any questions for Jeff and in the chat do we have anyone in the chat today we can return to that uh if if anyone does um so I'm gonna move on to well I guess I'll move on to my piece I don't have any notes on my piece though so does does anyone have anything they would like to say or ask or oh uh one thing I was just gonna mention is right actually yeah I was gonna say that uh Jeff uh had noticed an error in my piece that um it's not Fe Hayden uh I copied that from uh um Daniel Cohen's book um and should have checked back with other sources it's actually SE Hayden that um Eda pegas was talking about um in reference to the uh um the Aurora crash uh yeah yeah that that's not what I was going to mention though um go ahead where did that book go anyways uh anyways uh I was going to say you talk about uh you talked to that mentioned the historian lady that said how there wasn't even uh a windmill on the property um and yeah she did say that I will point out supposedly there actually was a windmill on the property that was found when they investigated you know when they came in later and investigated uh that doesn't actually change anything really like it was still a madeup story but I just wanted to point out that there allegedly was a windmill that they found pieces of on the property later on um so she may have been wrong about that but it it still was a fictional story that was just a windmill that was on the craft though it was like you know like a saucer with a windmill on top well it was actually just a tardis disguising itself with its Chameleon Circuit as a windmill my bad yeah thank you but it wasn't the doctor because it would have just been a foam Booth so it must have been the master visiting 1897 in Aurora Texas it was some time lord or whatever yeah maybe it was the Ronnie H have you guys watched the roar Texas movie Yes yes yeah we watch that together I think I we watch that the same time I mean not together same time online yeah yeah it's uh it's pretty corny but it's kind of funny it's really corny and there's some great there's some cool songs too about the roar Texas crash that have been made like uh one's kind of like a old timey kind of like song and but it's still kind of fun it's cool yeah yeah that Lo case is pretty interesting to the Lo California case uh I I did a show with a Twitter space this week with Lou Angeles and somebody was asking me like what the first abduction was and I was like well you know I mentioned the loady case like supposedly for one of the first abduction attempts but there was also other supposed abduction attempts in the Airship era there's like that one case where um supposedly the occupants like tried to grab the guy but they were too weak like they weren't strong enough to bring him into the Airship and so they weren't successful yeah I talked about that one too yeah so like it's it's very very interesting that all these things go way way back okay uh did you have anything you wanted to say Louise okay um I have some notes on your piece and I'm just going to go through them really quick uh first of all I feel for uh for listeners out there I think it's really important to emphasize that China is like it's not really China overall that Louis is concerned with and I think this is pretty clear but more the Chinese Communist Party Luis is of course not anti all things China like uh anti-chinese culture anti-chinese people he's only against China's oppressive ruling party um I think most of our viewers would at least hopefully agree that the C CCP is a bad thing and their treatment of the weager people is um really unspeakably terrible um so here's a quote from Louis's piece that I'm just going to go ahead and read um another thing to note here those who see the US is simply another great power and a great power contest with China and Russia are actually falling for and paring the the cynical worldview itself fully believed by many in the Chinese establishment that great powers are only out for more power and resources this not only leaves us allies and liberal democracies out to dry why bother standing up for them if the US is just another brutal hedgemon that cares nothing for democracy and why stand up for Liberal democracy if it is just another very of exploitative capitalism I think that while there may be unquote I think that while there may be people who actually do this holding a stance that is critical of the us as a superpower is certainly not the same thing as parting Chinese Communist ideology because someone's belief happens to correspond to someone else's belief in some way it does not mean that one that that one belief was caused by the other or even that these beliefs are fundamentally related just that they happen to correspond correlation is not the same thing as causation so in other words just because China is critical of the US and I am critical of the US this does not mean that I listen to or agree with the Chinese Communist party in any other way leftists in the US and other Western countries like me are to widely differing degrees influenced by a Marxist view of history but of course this does not mean that leftists in the west remotely condone leninism and indeed the main concern of leftism in the west is combating systemic oppression for this very reason most leftists are deeply critical of the CCP as well as all other totalitarian regimes we don't view communist autocracies as good at all or sympathize with them so the people Lis refers to Who quote see the US and simply as simply another great power unquote must be there therefore very different from leftists like myself or other leftists I've interacted with as an American uh another quote from L's piece quote but it also adopts a deeply historical and empirically invalid Outlook that ignores that great power contests have always been as much about spreading ideas as they have been about resources markets and powers and power the US has sought to promote a liberal world order in which liberal capitalism and open institutions are the ideal to which all countries should ultimately Aspire unquote I agree um and I agree that nobody can ignore the history of the use of ideology and GE geopolitical battles from the end of World War II to today at the very least indeed excuse me indeed cough most leftists most leftist critiques of both the CCP and the US military industrial complex hold this fact as fundamental to their arguments the US has often throughout postwar history used an ideology of spreading democracy to justify all sorts of actions that were either deeply unethical or else that had huge consequences for countries with less power than the US often negative consequences these include actions abroad such as the Iran Contra affair in which the Reagan Administration illegally and covertly sold arms to Iran in order to provide funding for right-wing Rebel groups in Nicaragua or the US bombing raids on and negligence towards Cambodia during the during the Vietnam War which led not only to many civilian casualties on the part of the us but also to the mass genocide that took place there at the hands of the C Rouge um I'll be providing some references in the uh chat here the US has also perpetrated crimes against its own citizens firmly on the basis of protecting freedom and democracy this includes McCarthyism where when there was an active campaign in the US government to root out citizens with communist beliefs this led to many people being FAL falsely accused of being communist which of course is not itself even a crime and also led to many people losing their jobs Co Andel Pro a covert operation perpetrated by the FBI actively spied on political dissidents on the justification that they threaten American Freedom these included many counterculture activists like Abby Hoffman and it and it also included black activists like members of the Black Panther Party whose goal was to strengthen and support black communities while protecting them against active racism it also included spying on other black activists like Martin Luther King Jr as well as feminists MK Ultra a clandestine vay into pseudo science by the CIA was promulgated by a Korean War fear that China had mastered the ability toose supposedly brainwash people it led to the unethical treatment of American and Canadian citizens as well as the death of Frank Olen which was very likely a deliberate assassination by the CIA um I didn't include a reference there but that uh that point actually comes from the Errol Morris U miniseries wormwood which is specifically about the death of Frank Olson not only this but the US will actually use the ideology of spreading democracy to falsely justify foreign Poli policy in his video essay hypernormalisation Adam C and Curtis describes how the Reagan Administration used muamar Gaddafi as a figurehead and misrepresented his role in the Arab world as a part of a PR campaign just to justify their actions in the US actions over seeds um and here's a link to that video that uh that movie the bush administrations used similar PR tactics George W Bush's Administration responded the September 11th attacks by claiming that Iraq was developing weapons of mass destruction and that Iraq was colluding with Al-Qaeda this led to Bush's vaguely defined war on terror as well as a protracted war with Iraq a country that still deals with the social consequences of that war to this day on the basis of the administration's false claims um you know and obviously Bush you know is trying to spread freedom and democracy uh here's some more information on that I would not only say that it is ahistorical to pretend that American foreign policy and domestic policy are not driven by American ideology I would go further to say that it is ahistorical to pretend that this ideology is you know static or always Justified or that it is free from the influences of confer conservatism and authoritarianism that are sometimes against freedom and democracy reducing the modern course of history to Simply a dialectic between communism and liberal democracy is a vast oversimplification of modern history or for that matter autocracy versus liberal democracy and it's an vast over simplification of American History just on its own terms the danger of this type of view of history is that it overlooks the real threats that authoritarian thinking like those among Republicans the religious right Maga supporters and racist for right right extremists promote it ignores the threat of fascism in the US to a certain degree not entirely and not explicitly but I think that it does to a certain degree this is a threat that was realized in Americans Minds by the election of Donald Trump trump and further by the January 6 riots but the reduction of modern history and current global conflict to a simple ideological conflict also ignores the fact that despite being ruled by a Communist Party China is for all practical terms a capitalist country they are of course internally communist and totalitarian but the economic power and economic growth of China rests on their trading of consumer goods with other countries to grow their economy I support Chinese dissidents who want to work to overthrow the CCP but I also think that is very likely that the US Pentagon will play only a minor role in this if not a completely dysfunctional one given the US military's pedigree of making things worse in in Asian countries and the real threat to the CCP is just as minin pay argued socioeconomic conditions like the continued growth of an educated Chinese middle class pay writes quote if the face of if the fate of post- totalitarian communist dictor inator ships in the old Soviet block is any guide a bet worth making is that China's long journey from maoism to Neo stalinism via a three decade trip through post- totalitarianism will be seen as a historical detour that delayed but could not prevent a Rond de view with Democratic change unquote is the Chinese Communist Party a threat of course it is but if we pretend that the US simply represents liberal democracy and it's that simple and we ignore all of the negative consequences of unethical actions by US Presidential administrations and the US Military and the CIA and the FBI then it's much easier to justify any action on the part of the US government with without considering the actual ethics or ramifications of the actions of the US Military and other countries um simply because this position happens to align with the ccp's description of events neither means that such a position is true is not true or even that it is in any way fundamentally consonant with Marxism leninism I think we should be less worried about a threat from the Chinese Communist party and more worried about the threats within the US of military action without oversight of political corruption and the potential of the US government to being manipulated by wealthy companies or Worse fascistic movements because after all the ultimate goal of Chinese psychological warfare is to promote autocracy in Liberal countries right so promoting a view of History where the US is simply the good guy and Chinese and China is the bad guy man and worldview if there ever was one works for for rather than against the ccp's agenda so um those are my not trying to be mean or anything or start an argument but those are my that's my two sets well I would say that um right now there's more uh there's more similarity between some somebody like Orban in Hungary and um uh you know supposedly uh he call himself a sort of conservative or an anti-communist but I think that there's in some ways there's more um overlap between him and xiin ping and um so you know the authoritarian versus liberal divide um it's kind of a bit weird these days because you've got a lot of overlap between sort of even like Elon Musk right um quintessential so-call libertarian entrepreneur he um uses Twitter as basically a platform to uh amplify Russian propaganda or at least that's the effect and uh Chinese propaganda as well some people don't even see the contradiction in that so these days that dichotomy is a little bit stranger than it used to be but um I was really speaking in Broad Contour when I was talking about the us being overall a Force for good at least in comparison to China not trying to say that the US is simply the good guy but that if you look at it in relative terms um the US does at least promote a social system liberal democracy that is undoubtedly a huge advance in the history of civilization and um I think it's really it's naive to deny that um like just the the rights which are available to people in Liberal democracies are pretty much unprecedented in human history now that that doesn't excuse us um crimes but it still might put them into perspective so you know like the US during the Cold War it was in in the kind of the other guy is trying to like blink seeing who blinks first that sort of thing and in that sort of contest it wasn't always um clear like that you could just let the other guy get away with some something so that was sort of the backdrop for why the US supported all these nasty anti-communist regimes um during the Cold War uh and to an extent does does that as well today um the other thing was China is capitalist I mean you said that China is communist internally it's got a Marxist leninist structure even if they don't believe in this stuff they've still got a Marxist leninist apparatus right yeah its growth has been Thanks to capitalism so like we can't simultaneously say that capitalism is the problem here when the the very thing that's that's allowed China to get out of its Backwater status like which it was in in 1970 1970s um you know when the the the warming of relations happened between China and America um you know how do we how do we reconcile that saying that capitalism is the problem and then acknowledging that it is a communist state and a Communist Regime well because uh right capitalism is not an internal system like capitalism isn't about like it's not like capitalism is just any exchange of money China is a capitalist country in the sense that it its economy depends entirely on capitalist trade basically I mean not entirely necessarily capitalism is what they call it yeah exactly it's it's just a it's capitalism but with a communist government basically so the and and I think there's this kind of tension between internal governance and uh Global and international politics too right so when America is being a liberal democracy internally that's very very different in fact it's often just the complete opposite of America trying to promote liberal democra in other countries because in terms of you know like what does a liberal democracy do they provide you know um a voice and social uh welfare and um uh and all of these things to their citizens to make sure that all the citizens are being given you know a fair stake and are and that their rights are being protected that kind of thing um but in terms of spreading liberal democracy historically what that meant is basically fighting other countries and doing like covert actions in other countries and things like that which um i' argue that Chicago school style neoliberalism than just standard liberal democracy I mean yeah I mean I'm not even talking in um economic terms but that's a thing too is that a liberal democracy in in no I'm talking about how they go into other countries that was Chicago school oh I don't know I'm sorry like the Chile like C and Chile you mean yeah oh oh okay okay um well the shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein and the documentary goes into a lot yeah yeah for sure the US has adopted often um placed uh capitalism ahead of democracy absolutely disaster capitalism you know by this uh on the other hand um you know you mentioned Wars and Co operations those were done against Nazi Germany during World War III through the the office of strategic Services the predecessor of the CIA and uh the US did provide huge support um to the countries fighting against the Nazis and the effect of that ultimately was that Western Europe at least which was not under Soviet control was you know uh it was mostly liberal democracies there yeah well I think that really what what my question or what my main concern is really is how do we stop war from happening and how do we stop oppression from happening in the future like I think that's really what everyone's main political goals should be right that we should prevent any kind of war that there shouldn't be a a conflict in Israel or Palestine or that there shouldn't be these geopolitical conflicts between superpowers I don't think that it's the uh you know the ideological beliefs about how a country is run that governs these conflicts or that is going to stop these conflicts in any way um it it's really going to be you know some I don't know I don't know but I don't I don't think that um like yeah sure liberal democracy is good in terms of what it does for the people within its country um it's not perfect but it's like you like you said it's a a massive Improvement on some other types of uh of of um political systems but [Music] um sorry like what about um I mean you said uh how to stop we should be stopping Wars but sometimes Wars are the only option because the other the alternative is to let for example Saddam Hussein gobble up Kuwait in 1991 you know that he chose that war and then there were people on the left in America saying America Amica shouldn't have gone to war against Iraq because there were diplomatic options on the table and other things like that but that's like how how do you prevent that from becoming like the dictators being rewarded for their behavior well what I'm not I'm not saying that that all war is unjustified that's not what I'm saying what I'm saying is that we want a world that doesn't have war in it like everyone wants peace like that should be our end goal you know what I'm saying and I don't think that trying to spread a particular country's ideology is going to do that right I mean yeah sure obviously if if all the countries in the world were liberal democracies everyone would have a much better time they would have a higher standard of living and there would probably be less Wars but the US vying for power you know is the US vying for power whether or not you know it has an ideology behind it um and and the question is is really you know how do we make the US Department of Defense and the US government you know more um accountable um and also behave in a more ethical way um and in a more consequentialist way right because historically the US military has not behaved in a way where it was considering its Consequence the consequences of its actions so well that leads on to the question of um in the meantime what do we do about China and Russia well I mean I think that yeah you know I don't think that it's a problem of you know trying to um fight autocracies I I don't think that's a problem and I think that a lot of the suggestions that you made are uh in terms of what we should do are actually really good suggestions but I'm still also extremely skeptical of the Pentagon and allying with the Pentagon because the Pentagon historically has done really shady stuff and they often operate without a lot of oversight I mean you know this whole you know the skinwalker at the Pentagon thing that um your paper deals with has a lot to do with that like you basically had these people from the public sphere manipulating people within the Pentagon uh you know behind closed doors right and that's how that stuff took place so like if someone in the Pentagon is trying to fight uh the Chinese Communist party but they decide in doing so that they can do some other you know unethical thing like perpetrate uh disinformation against the American public or something like that covertly you know there's no oversight I mean I'm sure there's some measure of oversight but and I'm not you know I I got to say right now I I don't know what your your two backgrounds is in political science or in foreign policy um you know it sounds like you know Lis you have a very intelligent and nuanced take on all of this and you think a lot about it I'm not an expert on the topic you know um but uh you know these are my opinions and beliefs that kind of thing lampshade Jeff yeah I mean I just with say that those are all nice goals and ideals to have I think many people have strived for that forever like most people don't want war they would like peace they'd like Prosperity they'd like all these things but the fact of the matter is is that like We'll always have them there will always be geopolitical conflict there will always be war between nations there'll always be war and conflict internally like there'll always be these issues and the issue I see is that a lot of these people they like to call out what they see as a problem whether whether they're blaming like capitalism for climate change um which makes zero sense uh or you know uh liberal democracy democracy for all the world's problem or whatever uh they don't actually have any solutions uh to you know change things like and I think a lot of these people failed to understand the kind of complex world we live in and and would like to live in this kind of like nice happy world and think that we should get there but it's just not not practically like gonna happen I don't know I'm not really a political guy like I I don't really follow politics all that much and um like I said to be honest I didn't even know that they were having a debate this week until it was already over and I've not watched it um That's how little I I care about politics um but I'm not I'm not good at following politics either um yeah I I think I just want to say that you know the leftist position again is really about fighting oppression it's and is is against autocracy you know so you know leftists are the kinds of people who would absolutely engage in things like um you know covert operations and uh psychological warfare and like hacking into like other countries internets and stuff like that you know and see that as completely politically Justified and the left is also very solution oriented as well though usually their what they what the left's actions are usually oriented towards are to solve specific uh problems and they they set up specific goals right you know like providing this group of people with more rights or providing this particular country with more autonomy or you know protesting um you know this type of damage to the environment you know those sorts of things so they're not like so so I would not say that the left is not solution oriented it's just that the left prioritizes things differently from people that are a lot more moderate you know how do you how do you how do you counter the charge that um every experiment in trying to get rid of capitalism has ended in disaster and even more oppression for the people that it was supposedly trying to um help well um I think I I don't think that leftism today contemporary leftism is entirely throw out capitalism right just like leftism isn't just like about throwing out everything right it's really just about changing the system it's not about Revolution but about Evolution a lot of the time sometimes it is about Revolution when you know right like a country requires a political revolution obviously but like in a place like where we're at it's not like leftists are fighting to you know destroy the uh us or the US government that's not what they're doing at all in fact most leftists you know who are really engaged in activism are really civically engaged as well and do things like vote and go to town hall meetings and all that stuff you know like um so the left is against capitalism in the same way that the left is against War where we have these really broad historical goals of being like how do we live in a world that is peaceful how do we live live in a world where the oppression of capitalism no longer exists not just like oh let's just throw it all way you know let's just forget about it you know and I want to correct when I said Anarchy in the last uh EOS chat episode that I wasn't talking about anarchism and I'm really sorry that I said that that way because I'm not entirely against anarchism per se um I don't think that um like there will ever be like an anarch country or whatever I'm not sure if that's like feasible but I I do think that anarchism in political action has its uses right um and a thing that I would add too is that the left has a long history of actually producing positive Revolt results you know the the left was very involved in labor unions in the early 20th century in feminism and the black civil rights movement right and and and and a lot of these different social movements that actually yielded results like adding amendments to the Constitution you know or the passage of the Americans with Disabilities Act Right um those those are those are coming from the left those kinds of products in culture and those are positive those are good things and though you know if people didn't do stuff like that in America if there weren't leftist dissidents in America we would be living in a a much more kind of repressive Victorian looking type of culture you know probably yeah I agree with you on that but I I am always I I'm wary of like um extremism on both sides because as I say in my Twitter uh profile um I'm anti-communist but also anti-fascist um yeah I think there are limits to I think that that's like where we really agree on you know is that we're both very anti-fascists and for me the the fear is what kinds of tendencies in the US could lead to a successful fascist or autocratic movement right sorry go ahead I didn't mean to interrupt you I think Jeff wanted to say something maybe oh not really I was just gonna mention that I actually just saw like a a meme about this yesterday about how uh I think it was under a Greta thumberg post or something where somebody was talking about how awful the world is now like they saw a homeless person on the street you know living on a bench and how it wasn't it wasn't like this hundred years ago you know before all these uh uh and and they were basically trying to blame it on the left is why like you know the standard of living is supposedly crap and so this person posted a meme of like literally families living in Shacks in America you know in like the 1930s and 40s you know tar paper shacks and you know and extreme poverty and stuff it's like really you want to go back to this before you know some of the policies that started to be implemented about a hundred years ago was like it people tend to have like this kind of like fantasy idea of like what the past was like like you know it was it was perfect back then you know and it it really wasn't like you know like you did mention a lot of that stuff that came out of like you know Wilson and after you know kind of improved the quality of life for a lot of Americans over what it was back then and I'm all for reg like like there's no doubt the US government's done a lot of horrible horrible things and I'm absolutely for more accountability and I'm for more regulation on a lot of stuff um and I just I don't think uh get getting rid of capitalism is really like a feasible kind of like idea that will ever ever take place I I do like I said I am absolutely for more regulation like I think just like unrelenting capitalism or we just let billionaires collect all the wealth and where all the rest of us you know are poor is not not cool um so I'm for more regulation but I just I don't see other solutions for a lot of this stuff yeah I mean is we live in a a globally connected world now where you know we can't just like deal with what's going on within our borders and let everybody else do whatever they want to do over elsewhere like like it just doesn't work that way because what we do affects people elsewhere and what they do affects us here we're all connected and so we all have a stake in these conflicts and that's why we get involved in some of them that's why we you know provide Aid to like the Ukraine because you know it it does affect us and World stability if you just let you know Putin run around wild like taking over things and so you know we the fact is is like this is a big world now there's a lot more people on it and we're all connected and so some of these systems while they can be improved I just I don't see possible Replacements of solutions yeah I mean I think uh um that you know Mark fiser right he wrote a whole book about this he was a leftist thinker right um and the hology one yeah and it's basically about how we live in a world where we can't imagine an alternative to capitalism basically um and the left views this is a bad thing you know the left isn't saying that we can just eradicate War we can eradicate capitalism and one fell swoop it's going to be something that takes a long time right we're not Marxist leninists we're not like trying to just you know build our own country just immediately or something like that um I think that's completely absurd but I do think that you know having that dream you know like John Lennon's imagine of of dreaming of a world that is you know a world built on egalitarianism and peace you know is a worthy Dream It's a worthwhile dream of having you know um and like if there's an end to history like you know Francis fukuyama talks about you know I think in in a leftist uh vision of History the end of history is is something like that where um everyone has the same rights and freedoms in the world and the same opportunities and the same you know resources and couldn't this good like uh I did do a talk on this show about uh the nuclear Rockets you know nuclear thermal rockets and how um I forget the author's name but he was talking about how in his view St yeah he thinks that um the these are necessary for long-term deep space exploration and colonization and that this may actually have a huge benefit on Humanity because it could relieve tensions on Earth and it could also uh Foster a type of cosmological or Cosmic worldview among people I mean iously you said Rachel that you don't think space is that important but couldn't it be seen as important in terms of like everybody sees themselves as part of a you know Little Dot the the blue you know KL Sean's pale blue dot right yeah that's a cosmic perspective and um Neil degrass Tyson has also mentioned this the the free Martian Republic yes well I think that act absolutely that uh science and space science too like I'm not totally anti-space science but I'm just you know think that space science should just like any other kind of science or technology development in the world should really be focused on how to be more green and how to be sustainable and really really be prioritizing that um but I do think that absolutely leveraging space science to create Bridges across cultures across countries across ideologies you know in order I think that's that's a wonderful project actually and that there could absolutely be stuff like that in the future um and so you know like I'm not anti-space science right I just think that you know the the kinds of I don't think we should be prioritizing stem I think we should be prioritizing I mean we should but a different kind of stem right a stem that is prioritizing the sciences that are really really critical but are also really really immature like psychology sociology anthropology and um but also prioritizing more of course biology and ecology as well because those are super important right now um I think that that stuff is more important than space science so so you know that whole piece about the Dusky Seaside Sparrow wasn't really a reflection on the modern state of things but it was really just a historical piece about what happened in NASA's past and I think I I think I should have made that more clear and I think think that I made an error in in not doing that um because really what I wanted to do was make a piece about the Dusky Seaside sparrow and emphasize just how important the Dusky Seaside Sparrow is as a population of living beings and how those are just gone forever right um because of this prioritization of this like American exceptionalist dream of going to the moon and stuff and and I think that th that whole project Within NASA and the US government at that time period was a little bit misguided I think that going to the Moon per se was a good thing because there was a cold war contest with a lot of prestige hanging on it but I don't think that necessarily I mean I I would have liked NASA to keep going after what was it Apollo 17 but I mean I can understand critiques of that uh other more pressing social concerns but um I think that the moon mission the moon shot per se was legitimate yeah I mean I think it was definitely a huge achievement and it's really remarkable and amazing but I don't necessarily think that I don't think that if I was alive at the time that the Apollo you know and I was an adult uh you know um with similarly adulty views that like that I would have been like supporting the Apollo Mission because I probably would have been hanging out with a bunch of leftists and and hearing you know the kinds of things that you know folks like vonet or um Gil Scott heren or you know you know if there was someone like Sarah skols making those types of arguments you know I been listening to that kind of thing um but yeah no I I I think that that um this this idea of of of having this contest of showing who is technologically Superior um was was very um I think that it was a big PR thing and it isn't really a inaccurate representation of science or a positive representation of scient of science I think much better and more useful one is like when you know for example when Einstein was trying to demonstrate his theories and was working with Scientists in other countries to make these observations of gravitational lensing or something like that which required the space program and NASA being to go up there to confirm this was before NASA though I'm talking about like yeah but not ultimately confirmed until we were able to go up there and put up probes and actually make real measurements right but the example that I'm using here is really about the historical and cultural perspect perception of Science and um and the and the use the utility of it I guess um because so you know I think a much more useful way to portray science publicly is science as Building Bridges across cultures and people working together despite political divides you know as opposed to science as being a competition I argue the space program is one of the most internationally collaborative programs out there it's one of the only programs where we actually work with a lot of people we usually consider enemies I I mean that's a good point but at the same rate though NASA's Space Program during the Cold War was very much about Cold War politics and the space race was a space race that's what it was right it was a space race between the US and the USSR and it was very much about competitions a competition between two Global superpowers vying for power and and and it was and it was all about you know engaging the public but thank goodness it wasn't Soviets who W won that campaign right but they wouldn't have anyway right do you think if the Soviets weren't doing it we would have just not even wanted to go to space though I think we would have um no I think we would yeah I think we would have but and there's no doubt we used that politically it was kind of like a standoff and a competition but I still think we would have done it anyways but even if we hadn't um I think the pr aspect is a legitimate aspect I mean we were the US was competing against a totalitarian ideology so like even if it wasn't just about science and it was a geopolitical contest I think that's completely fine science doesn't just have to be about Discovery it can also be about serving the you know the needs of a a society or a state I mean aru we bankrupted the Soviet Union and caused its collapse because of that which would be a net positive that's happened I don't think the US actually caused the collapse of the USSR we expedited it yeah we what we expedited that well yeah but I don't think that we caused it though I think the USSR caused that themselves right because they just had economy I mean ultimately you're responsible for like they wouldn't have won the Space Race because they wouldn't have been capable of doing so um and and I think that the my problem with it is not only does this competition this competitive way of looking at science globally competitive between two different superpowers sort of emphasize a component of conflict right because a competition is a conflict and this wasn't a friendly competition it wasn't a game it was part of the Cold War right um and it doesn't emphasize what we should really be prioritizing which is peace and people not being faced with the threat of uh you know of violence right um but how do you do that in how do you do that in Ukraine for example I mean Putin's the one who chose War not peace the West there are voices in the America including on the on the political right by the way who say that we should have we should just have peace like margerie Taylor green says we should just have peace in Ukraine I just translates into slavery yeah I don't know her perspective I mean I I support Ukraine and and I do not support Russia in in Ukraine at all I don't support Putin at all uh I think that we should just make that really clear like Putin's just terrible you know like he's straight from the KGB like what he's doing um and to a certain extent what China do is doing right I mean maybe even to similar extent as they're just continuing this cold war manism like you were talking about right and that's a bad thing that that of of being US versus them that's a bad thing right and so I think really to combat stuff like um stuff like that like Putin is to be like hey you know why are these people promoting War and why are these people promoting geopolitical politics you know instead of participating in this ongoing conflict and being like well Putin did this well Xi Jinping did that right oh what did China do in response to America being kind to them they did this we need to stop being adversarial because because like you know diplomats don't do that right because they know that that's bad in diplomacy because it increases conflict it escalates conflict but so do showing weakness I mean the reason that Putin invaded is because he perceived the West to be weak on on Ukraine yeah I mean that's that's the thing though that's part of Putin's ideology and that's part of his PR right that's part you know like yes America shouldn't be weak but also America lowering itself to Petty squabbles about geopolitics is showing weakness it's showing a weakness of of being unable to stick to our values so you but now you're saying that we do have values well I mean I have values yeah absolutely everybody has values I'm not saying you know I I I've made this very clear and I've underlined it multiple times I'm not denying the existence of ideology or saying that ideology is all bad right I just think that we should be clear about you know what the ideology is what it's doing where it's coming from and and you know separate ideology from fact right because you know saying that my IDE you know when I say things like that the US is a hedgemon and China says that the US is a hedgemon that doesn't mean that I agree with China it just means that that point in particular I believe to be true even though China said it right um and yeah I mean I think that we should have values it's just I think that the there there's there's ideologies of values that the US will promote and do so deliberately as a PR campaign sometimes to manipulate the uh the American public you know like what the bush and what the second Bush Administration did right but my point is with Putin for example or China you you know uh expand the um the the general point to Taiwan and um yeah and I support Taiwan iort I support taiwan's Independence I think that they should be that they should be acknowledged by the UN right but like my point is what is the practical way to deal with these autocrats when they see weakness as an invitation to attack and they're going to use American pre military presence as an excuse to be aggressive anyway in their own PR so what's the practical way to defend Ukraine or Taiwan I mean um look you know I think that because we can have these debates all day here in the safety of America but like it's they're the ones facing the danger yeah and you know I mean yeah I think that uh I would want Taiwan and um I would want I would want I'm sorry what was the other thing that you mentioned you said Taiwan and something else oh Ukraine oh Ukraine I'm sorry okay yeah no I think that um I don't support Russia being you know invading Ukraine at all I I I don't support um China putting pressure on Taiwan you know um and and and I think that yeah the US military should be in that I guess you know I don't think that that's a perfect solution I don't entirely like it you know because I don't like the US Military and I don't like the us being a superpower I don't like superpowers right I think we should be living in a world that's just sort of like the EU or something like the EU or like SC the scandavian um whatever the EU yeah but the yeah go ahead whatever the US has done and like I said it's done a lot of a lot of bad stuff can you imagine what the world would be like if us wasn't a superpower though like I can't we superpower has held a lot of other crazy people at Bay yeah right but thing is we can't really imagine that kind of scenario I mean we can uh you know but it would be very speculative because the fact of the matter is I don't know would be if you understand psychology and history and you know let me I'm sorry now the the thing is is that we've never had that kind of historical circumstance you know when I was reading through the articles that Lou cited I really liked the fact that they were really relying on empirical evidence you know um to a certain extent and um you know uh what pay's article I think it was pay's Article was uh really nice about what what was really nice about pay's article was that pay was really focused on looking at historical examples of being like hey you know China is really different from other countries that you know in the past were autocracies and then became democracies um because China is like I can't remember the exact points that pay uh outlined but basically China is historically very different um and that's the thing is that we don't live in a world where World War II ended with the axis winning so we have no idea what would have happened because nothing like that has ever happened you know like never like we we like global history began in the past like 200 years basically I mean like truly Global where we where we have like world wars and and and World conflicts and stuff like that like so yeah but yeah I understand what you mean but but what about a world in which the US chose not to get involved in uh World War II um yeah you know I think that that might be a worse world I think possibly or it might have just been a worst world for like a decade right who knows you know because maybe what what if the Nazis Choice like came to power made the west coast and we wouldn't have had an option to stay out of the war once they started hitting the West Coast yeah yeah yeah just in terms of the war yeah we would have been fighting it on on us ter on us land but I think you know you know Americans Canadians people went over to fight the war long before we officially entered it as well you know like there's a lot of people willing to fight in World War II even before America officially joined the war yeah well no you know and I think Simon fly you really raise a good point um you know and I think okay it's it's okay to be pratic and also to acknowledge these tensions right um like to be like hey you know yeah the US did have to be involved in World War II in order for the world to be a better place right but at the same time the US did actually do a lot of really unethical stuff in the time after after that you know to the present day probably right and and and it's okay to acknowledge both of those things and also I think that leftism is at root a pragmatic thing it's not just about dreams you know like I said earlier leftists tend to focus on specific goals in activism right to like say like help this particular group of people in a specific way or to promote this particular type of message and you know to make this particular kind of change yeah yeah I'm I'm not a huge fan of of America either um I mean I do kind of I I love it though it is my country but I'm not a patriot I think I might have said something like I'm patriotic or something in the last chat I say stupid stuff sometimes but I I I think it's better other options I'm just you know like I said there's a lot of things I'm not proud of uh but yeah yeah well I mean there it's one thing of being like saying like I'm proud of the country from where I'm from and then on the other hand being like a magga patriot or even just a conservative Patriot because on the one side I'm not really like the nationalism personally yeah yeah yeah there's a fine line between uh you know like supporting your country and becoming a nationalist which thinking you're better than everyone else yeah and having this unreal ISC belief in your country really is like the predecessor and like kind of cousin to right fashion even if um America is not inherently better um it's still often the case that it's the only country that can do a certain intervention yeah yeah and I I agree with that and sometimes yeah it's necessary I think that it's necessary for America to be involved in Ukraine or to support Taiwan militarily but but and uh you know to have a presence there but at the same time though you know the you know that doesn't that doesn't mean right that's that's not the same as saying that I think that that the US uh is always good and the US military always does good stuff I think I think in a sense that there'll always be superpowers just kind of in the sense that Things fall into like a 8020 power rule right like there'll always some countries that have more resources more power more influence than the other countries from the bottom of the list and so I think it's always been that way in history I mean there's been even you go back throughout history you got people like Alexander the Great genas Khan that have gone on their Rampages and took over large parts of the Known World during their time uh so you'll always have these kind of superpowers or Empires that have unnatural amount of influence and control over the world and its geopolitical situation well I hope not right you know I I I really hope not you know I just think that's a law of physics I don't think you can get away from that I yeah no I mean I don't think so I don't think we can we all want the Federation I want this I want the Federation as much as everyone where we all all live in peace and we the Federation the Federation is not realistic but and and and and talking about peace and talking about not having global conflicts is a dream right but I think that's probably the best thing to work towards um I don't think um and I think the only way you get that is with a One World Government which nobody really wants which really is what the Federation is is a one world government and even talk about it in Star Trek how like really like it's only when all the countries come together as one and are just like one government that you can actually enter the you know the the stars with all the other races or whatever but it's kind of messed up when you think a lot about it but but particular major conspiracy the conspiracies I want to raise a point though here which is that right in the past right we would have these Empires and uh Nations and nation states and stuff like that and the world was very heterogenous right it wasn't contiguous either you had these very different Realms like you know you had the Americas which were completely separated from your age culturally I mean largely for the most like there's some evidence that right let ask gram Han Global civilization but anyway setting that aside right you know and and as as history proceeded then we got these larger and larger Empires you know like China's uh the the Chinese Empire increased dramatically in size and then you had the British Empire you know at during the colonialist era and you had these huge colonialist powers from Western Europe vying for power and vying for land and now right we live in a global world where everyone interacts with each other and there's just uh superpowers vying for power right that's not really true because Russia and China want territorial um assimilation of the countries that they threaten or like the maritime borders the US for the most part has stopped doing that I mean they took over Hawaii they took over parts of Mexico back in the day but like that is not really you know part of the International System that America promotes no you're right uh America has America and the UK have definitely made major strives of moving away from Colonial imperialism absolutely I totally agree with you but that's doesn't really change the substance of my point which is basically that right whereas in the the past you would just have assortments of cultures and Nations and Empires now we live in a global system where where there's the vying for power is just vying for sources of global power geopolitically and the us while it's not so Imperial as it was in the past is still a superpower and will still do things that superpowers do I mean that's just being realistic I think you would agree with on that point but um right so my point is though is talking about this description of history that Jeff is putting forth that basically there will never be a world that is United or there will never be a world where there is peace right not only do I think it's cynical but I also think that really the general trend of History over the past 10,000 years or well since the beginning of history and prior to history has been a trend of globalization right of of people interacting and trading more and more and and states and countries becoming larger and larger and interacting more and more and now we're in a very very global system where we have you know huge economic blocks like and huge unions right like the European Union and trade unions and and huge countries that that exert huge amounts of power and and it's just one world so it seems to me like if that Trend continues then wouldn't it actually be likely that in the future that um that the world will become more Global and less drawn on nationalistic lines if that makes sense or state lines kind of isn't that what the US and the US military Strife forther is a integrated world order in which liberal democracy is the um preferred social system in in which countries Prosper through mut Mutual trade that's why we lambast um you know countries that violate that by trying to throw their weight around like Russia and Ukraine because you know we're stronger so we're going to take you over that's a violation of that globalized system but it seems like you're saying that the globalization has led to more imperialism I'm not really clear on what you no what I'm saying is is that the world has gotten smaller basically you know um whereas in the past countries right were smaller um and more diverse and less connected to each other now countries are much larger and more connected across uh across Nations across uh cultures and and there are also much more alliances between countries like the European Union and trade alliances and and the UN and stuff like that right what I'm saying is is that we're I don't if if there's always going to be war and there's always going to be geopolitical conflict how does that square with the general historical Trend in humanity of actually moving towards globalism and greater interconnection and enlargements of cultures and Nations and and and you know you see what I'm saying does does that make sense yeah that's a function of techn techology not people moving towards any sort of better system I mean yeah it is it is a function of technology and but it's also a function of just I mean like there are a lot of different factors that I think cause globaliza globalization to happen but I just don't think that the trends of globalization square with this idea that that the the entire human world will continue to be really really heterogenous it seems like it will will actually continue to be more about large countries large alliances and um interconnectedness across cultures like so so I guess what I'm saying is is that right we used to just have Petty conflicts between nation states and countries now we're living in a period where we have Global conflicts between superpowers but eventually that's going to be replaced with something else for good or for bad battles with the Galactic Federation and the sirens uh oh I was just going to mention um I think I mentioned this just briefly at the end of the last show uh this guy who had this Theory um and it comes from Dependency Theory uh and this guy Emanuel wallerstein is who I was talking about and His World System Theory and he how he breaks down instead of like the I was talking about the ideas like third world countries you know developing nations stuff like that um he he breaks it down into like systems uh where uh there's basically and he says hysteria explains the rise and fall of all states all in income inequality social unrest imperialism and he breaks the world down into core countries semi periphery countries and then periphery countries and basically kind of stuff almost flows upwards right like you've got the core countries that need these resources in these other countries and sometimes there's countries that are a little bit larger and they'll control Regional areas to say like Africa for example and then you got your periphery countries that really get almost nothing out of the system they're just basically feeding stuff out they depend on other countries for everything their food everything else because all they're doing is exporting their own natural resources are not really producing anything internally and he breaks it down to those kind of categories which I I thought was interesting apparently it's a kind of a Marxist uh expansion of uh Dependency Theory um but yeah now and now watch China trying to make everyone dependent on them yeah I mean the the core country it doesn't matter if it's a liberal democracy or a Marxist l in a state um this is not a I mean this is really not a critique You Can level against liberal democracy because everyone else is doing it as well yeah yeah I mean I like I said I think that liberal democracy isn't really it acts independently of of interactions between different states basically I think that was the point that I was trying to make is basically yeah liberal democracy is good and functional within a country but when a country is acting internationally it's not doing liberal democracy even if it's trying to promote liberal democracy that's not what it's doing anyway um I think this has been a really wonderful conversation and um I really enjoy talking with you guys um somehow these discussion episodes turn into long political conversations I don't know how that where are the UFOs at I it's not it's okay though I think that it's fine to talk about politics it is UFO adjacent you know um and China and the us both develop um UA s's or whatever balloons Tik Tock they're all involved systems and and I think that you know I've been thinking a lot about this military thing it's really interesting because there does seem to be this kind of boom and of of sort of UFO and Airship uh stuff and it and it seems to have some sort of you know that it lines up a bit with geopolitical history you know and and also technological history as well um but yeah like before you know uh before World War I a lot of the Airship movies were more Fantastical were more fun and a little bit less serious and then all of a sudden around you know in in the mid 1910s uh the tenor kind of changes um well first of all airships become conventional in cinema um but I also think they they become a lot less prominent as a um a feature of a movie that's Fantastical or whimsical unless unless it's in like cartoons um and and there's like this Gap right in in um Phantom aerial Phantom waves approximately from like I want to say like 1920 to 1930 or something like or 1933 right sort of in it kind of lines up with the inter War period you know what I mean I would say that the Phantom uh plane waves of the 30s also lines up with really massive uh aeronautical development you know when we were starting to really develop these planes yeah we had planes in World War I pretty relatively simple like planes like there's the the 30s was a particularly in Europe an area of of huge airplane development and particularly where a lot of these waves are being seen so yeah were these uh were these Phantom plan you know I need to read way more on this and I know that I read something by David Clark that was about Phantom planes a while back but it was it might have been talking about a different era um because when I imagine scar ships like so so there was like the British scar ship stuff in 1909 like 1913 I think and yeah I mean what I'm imagining is uh in you know the like in um the uh what is that in the Peak District or like in the Midlands right that people were seeing like really old planes didn't something like that happen and was that something that was happening in the 30s or was that something that only happened more like in the later 20th century like you know 50s 60s 70s kind of thing I think that was more I think in the 30s and stuff like that yeah so it was kind it feels almost like it was like you know whereas like some Phantom uh airships spes are more about anxieties and fears of like invasions from uh Russia or from Germany uh some of them are more like maybe anxieties that are like ghosts of World War I you know it's been argued that nberg case you know the old nberg woodcut uh there's different theories you know one is that it was Su dogs that they saw and they were just kind of illustrating that but it's been argued that it's not even real is the main Theory and there was actually an allegory because of uh basically political the political climate and fears at the time I guess having to do with the religious like I don't know like the different Catholics and yeah and you know hugut or whoever it was back with then but uh that yeah it was actually just and unless you understand the the cultural and historical context at the time you read this story and you just think oh it's a cool like it's an Airship sighting or battle in the sky or whatever happened but like no it was actually just like kind of born out of like fears and anxieties of the area so and it wasn't even meant to be literal so yeah yeah well you know I think um it definitely wasn't Sun dogs that's my conclusion I'm sorry if you disagree with me but I absolutely I don't think it ever happened so yeah I don't okay well I I think that if it did happen it wasn't Sun dogs I think it's absolutely possible that it didn't happen but I also kind of think that it might might have happened but it was some sort of weird rare Optical phenomenon related to what corus talks about the kaleidoscopic Suns phenomenon that's what that's my hypothesis right um yeah but it's interesting though that in all of these different stories that I found uh involving uh these solar orbs uh moving rapidly and that are associated with the sun and are colored um and pretty much happened that DUS or Dawn um they all seem to be in a religious you know the narrative is always placed in a religious context it's interpreted as having to do with the apocalypse or the sin and arrogance of the people there um and there was even one that I found in the Airship files that was a little bit different from the other ones that I found because it was more in a positive light it wasn't like ominous but again it had this mention of in a in relation to a different Celestial Mar Marvel um that happened at the same time in the same place they also talked about these orbs associated with the sun and I I just posted a case 1790 uh the Allan con Normandy France case that was likely a hoax and and it it does share some similarities with again that Canary Island case we talked about at the very beginning because it's a this saw bubble and kind of a guy inside the bubble and he's kind of sitting on a stool and that's at least what the illustration is right and but the problem is is that it's like it's didn't happen like it supposedly was told in the papers by this one guy and when they went and later like looked at all the records like this there's just no record this story ever happened or was reported like anywhere and so likely didn't even happen it was the guy in the bubble that's that made the report he was just yeah can't trust that guy in the bubble it yeah supposedly told by a police inspector and was sent into the French Academy of Sciences but the academy reported in 2006 that they have no knowledge of such report they've looked they can't find any report they've ever received about this event and this is another one that valet has in his book uh that he talks about and is in a couple other things and people say that maybe it was a UFO crash or maybe it was a time traveler but yeah again likely never actually happened so that's a problem with a lot of these old cases is that they may not be real events like they may just be you know meant to you know kind of uh teach a lesson or portray a message or an idea um or they you know there's a lot of reasons why these stories appear and they may not all be factual events that really happened yeah yeah thank you Jeff and for a final story a Secretary Bird chick was born in a safari park in England on Friday BBC reported that a couple of meeting secretary Birds living in captivity at the long Le Safari Park hatched their second chick the chick was reportedly hatched about two weeks ago and its sex is yet to be determined the long L safari park is on the long L estate in Wilshire England the Secretary Bird Sagittarius serpentarius is native to savanas and grass lands across subsaharan Africa and is listed as endangered on the iucn red list of threatened species there the tallest bird of prey in the world and have a wingspan of seven feet with a distinctive headrest they're known for stomping small prey with their long legs before we go if you enjoy this show we would like you to please consider subscribing to our Channel UFO Sunset please also hit the like button and hit the notification Bell icon if you'd like to get notified about upcoming videos and come and join our cozy and intimate live chat a great Plus for joining the live chat is that you can give us constructive feedback live on the air especially if we make any factual errors you can also join our Discord a temporary link to which can be found in the episode description or which I will actually put in the episode description after the episode is over my next case guys Valen Sol the valance all France case July 1st 1965 so I'll be posting that tonight and that'll be next next week balance all awesome yeah I think I have two or three copies of that comic too got duplicates and it's not the only Comic version of the case I have so I should have a lot of cool illustrations here you our political and personal views are not the same and the work of each of us is independent work personal views or positions expressed in individual pieces are not those of Yos who is not a person and has no views or the hosts the other hosts please be sure to check out our respective content I can be found at the Earth YouTube channel visit Lis katana's website euphology ISC corrupt. or you will die and you can find Jeff knox's Daily Posts on history and the science of UFOs on Twitter or Facebook Jeff Knox spends all of his time studying UFOs and he only makes a teeny tiny itsy bitsy little tiny bit of money off it please consider visiting his patreon page and becoming his Patron please please do this really please thank you Jeff thank you Lis thank you Simon fly thank you puxley uh thank you the gods thank you Vancouver guy Jeff a weirdo what's up with that Vancouver guy dude and also thank you so much to all of the doggies thank you to Dorothy thank you to L's Anonymous doggies what are your dogs names Louise can I ask you that um that's classified do the dogs live on air I'll just uh ask uh I'll just ask uh Jeremy Corbell I'm sure he'll have good answers for me I'll ask Richard Dodie He he'll give me like a list of 25 names doie in the words of the dis here come the Men in Black they're just trying to get our attention [Music] n [Music] [Applause] [Music]