Government scientist, psychic seeker: Sarah Gamm of the UAP Task Force on secrecy and ultimate truth

Transcript

with a scientist and psychic who worked with the much vaunted UAP task force and has therefore been privy to the kinds of evidence we all so desperately seek. This is Neon Galactic. I'm James Faulk. Thanks for joining us. Let me start out with a recruitment call.

Over these past several months and years, I've been slowly accumulating a crew of patrons, friends, and fellow travelers who've gotten involved in this subject and now support this show and one another through transformation. They've gone down the UFO rabbit hole and emerged as students of a universe more strange than we've ever been led to believe. The topic does that to people. It's a path of learning and initiation, one that so far at least rejects easy answers, but primes those involved to embrace fundamental mystery and reach for subtle truths that lay beyond all our old tired ways of being and knowing. It's a resurrection of wonder and fraternity.

And for those folks out there still searching for allies in this long flight from myopic normal, I invite you to visit our Patreon page and enlist yourself in our growing community. patreon.com/neonggalactic. For today's show, we're fortunate to be in conversation with a frontline expert in the congressional effort to discover and demystify UFOs and nonhuman intelligence. Our guest s scientist Sarah Gam worked on the UAP task force, that governmental research body established by Congress, which set aside decades of dissembling to proclaim once and for all the anomalous truth surrounding UAP. This capped a productive career in science that helped support and maintain intellectual endeavors within the US intelligence community.

and Gam became one of a select few folks officially tasked to the UAP subject as an expert where she was subsequently exposed to levels of truth and evidence [clears throat] were all still struggling to reproduce. And aside from those bonafites, she's also someone who has explored and expanded her own spiritual capacities and discovered within herself natural psychic gifts. This overlap of government credentials, spiritual activity, psychic awareness, and scientific expertise makes Sarah ideally suited to help the rest of us confront this moment, this reality, and gain perspective on an unfolding paradigm of extraysical dimension. Welcome to the show, sir. >> Thank you so much.

That was that was such a wonderful introduction. I appreciate that. >> Uh, no problem. Uh I am absolutely honored to have you on the show. You are uh um probably the closest I've gotten to uh you know the the government work that's been ongoing around UAPs.

Um I've talked to people who are in the community who are working with the government but have rarely talked to um folks who are on the inside. Uh Luisando was one such but uh didn't get a whole lot of answers in that conversation which is fine. I get it. Um, and of course I don't expect you to uh violate any kinds of secrecy oaths that you take. Um, they're they're held for a reason and I and I do appreciate that.

Um, but I kind of want to explore the work of the UAP task force and your role as much as you can talk about and then get on to your own spiritual and psychic journey, how those two relate and where that leads you in terms of your own conception of what kind of universe we're living in. So maybe if you can't talk about the details of what you did within the task force, you may be able to flirt with some of the conclusions that the you know these ideas are leading you to which may be more important ultimately [clears throat] anyway to my mind. Um I think we need to get to the conclusions and maybe stop worrying so much about some of the details. But um for folks who may not uh be aware and may not have heard you speak before, can I can we talk a little bit about your background, how you came to government service and then you know how you uh came to be drafted as part of the UAP task force? >> Yeah. Yeah, we could definitely um tap into any and all of that.

It was, you know, my my career and my personal life has always been a roller coaster and led me to where I am now. So, it kind of all ended up making sense at one point. Um, when I first went into government service, I was initially actually a contractor. So, I worked for Loheed Martin. Um, I graduated from my undergrad of astrophysics degree in 200, oh my gosh, six.

Very long time ago, it feels. Um, and so Lockheed wanted me for a job out in the DC area or in California. And I'm from Missouri, so I said, "I'm young. Ship me anywhere." And to DC I went and somehow here is where I've stayed ever since. Um although I had a brief stent supporting NASA and Noah down in Florida Cape Canaveral for a little bit but um so eventually uh hopping around some different contracting positions where uh funding ran out of contracts.

I was you know forced to find a new job or um you I called it the golden touch for quite a while because of having to find a new job all the time because um funding or the contract was whatever. So I went to government work and that's where I went uh supported NGA. I worked for NGA, National Geospatial Intelligence Agency. We joke that I is silent. Um but I worked there for about nine years as a government employee.

I got to do so many absolute incredible things. um did a lot of fighting terrorism and um actively was, you know, helping find bad guys and pointing to, you know, where where they're located and got amazing awards along the way, like helping um get with the Osama bin Laden mission and all kinds of other stuff that didn't involved um finding terrorists, but helping other things around the world like um helping dam from not breaching and being able to utilize a different type of satellite imagery that's not common. And uh I'm trying to paraphrase. So I just had a really cool career. And at one point during that career, I um got my masters in countering weapons of mass destruction.

The government paid for it. It was a DoD Department of Defense fellowship program through the NDU, National Defense University. Unfortunately, the program's closed now, but um about a month after I graduated, so it was July of 2019 when I graduated was when I worked in the research directorate at NGA. And I uh this uh classified report on a nuclear missile site somewhere in the world, I can't disclose where uh had an anomalous object visit. And all I could think of was, oh my gosh, I grew up being the biggest XFiles fan.

Um I've always known we're not alone. And you know, I have this this physics astrophysics degree and the C like countering weapons of mass destruction. So I know like nuclear things >> and so I just um >> started asking questions [laughter] and found the right people to talk to and asked if I could help and that's really the foundation to how I started supporting the UAP things because there were two kind of initiatives happening at the same time back then and um I ended up helping with both. So by the time the actual task force was sending out basically calls for people to support on a volunteer basis, I convinced my deputy director, again I'm in the research director, so this wasn't overall in GA. Um, but I convinced my deputy director to let me support because he he didn't want me to at first and I basically didn't take no for an answer and I gave like an argumentative essay like right there and my co- it was it was a very entertaining moment and my coworker that he was asking was more senior than me and he was like I don't have time for this.

I'm busy. Look at her like she knows she knows who the people are. She knows where to go. And so that's how I got on the task force. So, a pitch that changed your life, it sounds like like you uh asserted your desire there and uh changed your own personal history.

Pretty important moment it sounds like. >> Yeah. Yeah, it was it was really exciting because at that point so those two initiatives um I you know some people probably have heard me talk about there is um um at that time there was like a collaboration site where it was people from all over the world. if you had access to this classified system um you could jump in with your expertise. So we had people from all over that we could reach out to and then there was also the task force.

So sometimes the task force also used this collaborative space and so they were kind of married but they weren't. >> So you had the collaborative piece that people supported that weren't officially on the task force and then the actual task force. So, I did that collaborative piece first for a few months um before my deputy was going around trying to get volunteers to help on the task force. So, um but the task force was a volunteer basis which was really cool. It was such a collaborative amazing uh part of the Intel community to be a part of that um I I wish technically still existed today because it uh you learned a lot from each other and unfortunately when Arrow started that collaborative piece went away very quickly.

Had you ever seen anything like that happen before? That kind of organic curiosity within the intelligence community manifesting and a group of people who were just excited to find something out. >> Absolutely. Um the structure of the dam that I said I supported um that happened with there with with that team and that project there was um a few of us from like literally two of us from NGA and then we had DIA and then other IC agencies. There was a small team of probably less than 10 of us that just got together and were like, uh, we know there's a problem. ISIS just, you know, ISIS had, um, the structure, control of the structure.

Um, how do we get them off? And if this thing breaches, over a million people are going to be inundated downstream. So, we literally just got together in meetings and figured out solutions. And we were like, okay, well, we know a person in Baghdad at the embassy who could get us permission to go to okay, we know the SEAL team that will will provide us security. So each person provided their own different um you know support and expertise to the issue. So we ended up with hydraologists and you know USACE Army Corps of Engineers, dam safety experts and and then here with the imagery and it was really really cool.

So, it was neat to be able to experience something like that again um but from a different perspective of we don't know what's out there. >> Would you can you estimate how many people were involved in that or is that something that you couldn't talk about? >> Involved in in what the UAP >> Yeah. the UAP stuff the the broader um uh you know like you were saying the the effort that everyone was chipping in and then the how big was that? How many folks were >> Yeah. Um, so I'll start with the collaborative space. The collaborative space literally was >> less than 20 people at first and it was a hodgepodge of folks from different intel agencies from all over the world and we just genuinely wanted to help.

We knew sometimes it was, you know, something not anomalous or like we got a video one time and it was Venus and so I'm like, "Guys, it's Venus and here's look at the star charts and here's this and so I was quickly able to provide that assessment or you know something might be a bolide or um you know a fireball. So a really really bright meteorite. Um and people didn't know what those things were either. So um you know there was uh I'd say um you know slowly the the collaborative side of things started growing and then when I got on the actual task force that was um and I could only speak from NGA. So I never met the seniors of the task force.

I never I never even met the NGA senior either. Like we only spoke on the phone. Um so and then and then COVID happened um so it everything was was virtual right so um from the NGA side so I can't say this is how all the other intel agencies and entities worked but NGA was a complete volunteer basis and they would have people from like the analysis directorate who you know maybe there was something in a specific place in China that was observed so they would reach out to that China analyst and say Okay. Is this a normal thing? Are there, you know, balloons launched here all the time or what? Like try to see if it truly is anomalous or if it's something that's a normal um incident or observation. And then they would have like the research scientists look at it.

So you could dig into the data just a little bit more. Like an image analyst, they could um run a few algorithms on their stuff, but they typically are just analysts. And so the image scientists and research scientists um dive a little bit deeper into the metadata. And so you would have these separate groups potentially look at the same thing and then report back both the things that they saw. Um and so you might not know each other were looking at the same object either.

Um so from that perspective again just from NGA I want to be very specific on my words here. Um there was you know tens dozens of people on the dro but it was support as needed or as you had time basis as well. Sorry my nose is dripping. Um so when um you first started getting on it, it was like okay maybe like don't do like 15 20% of your time a week like just just do what you can on the side. So it wasn't everybody's um priority on their plate.

So there was a lot of people on the DRO and you just jumped in when you could. Um and but yeah, I I remember like whoever wanted to be especially in the research directorate on the email distribution list, you could be on it and if you supported, you did. If you didn't have time, you didn't have to. >> Yeah. But that speaks to something.

I mean there was uh sounds like a high number a relatively high number within the NGA that were volunteering to be uh you know uh useful in this search for sense around UAP which um I think is kind of an important indicator would would the um would the courageous outcome I think and I I think it's fair to call it that of the of the task force that ultimately uh led to the report to Congress which was basically the UAP are real we can't explain a lot of it Um the uh would that have happened if it wasn't co >> um >> do you think that that uh being virtual maybe freed people up to be a little bit more exploratory than they would have been otherwise? >> I I I truly don't know. I'm always an optimistic and hopeful person that that answer should be a definite yes. Um but you know and for like I was starting to work on a really cool project with the task force when COVID hit um dealt with working with the Navy trying to duplicate some of the things that have been observed and put sensors out and um and then the shutdown happened and when I got back to work I got crickets back and that was around the time when Arrow was starting to be stood up. Um it was there was what I've learned now from talking with others behind the scenes about this moment um was very common. Even some of the seniors on the task force were getting brick walls reaching out to Arrow.

So um I do know that report that Arrow put out. Um, I I did not provide edits, but other people like higher high up on the task force provided edits and comments to it and they didn't accept any of them. So, I I I wish I could say yes that there would have been something that was put out, but I I just really don't know because I I was never a part of this the senior meetings or anything like that on the task force. >> Yeah. >> Um, are you in government service now? Are you still a federal employee? >> I am not.

I'm a contractor. I support the army. So, I recently switched um because of the administration changes this year. Um people on probation couldn't stay on probation. They were they they were cancelled.

So, I was unfortunately a part of some of what happened. Um so, I am doing the same thing that I was doing as a government employee. I'm sitting in my same desk and everything, but I am a contractor now. Um, could you speak to and give us any sense of uh I know that this is probably no-go territory, but I feel like I have to ask in terms of videos and evidence that you saw. Um, how many were truly anomalous and can you give us any characterization of anything that you saw? Is that something that's probably prohibited? >> Yeah.

So PE folks folks always like numbers and it's hard to put, you know, an actual number on things and I'm sure I've said different numbers over all my interviews because I'm making it up on the spot, but it's a very small number that were truly an anomalous. We couldn't say it was parallax or a balloon, trash, I mean, birds migrating. um all all kinds of things I got to learn while supporting the task force and the collaboration space. Um but the few that were truly anomalous uh were I mean yeah so there were some that you would see initially that looked crazy and then when you kept watching or you dove into the data you're like okay that's trash or or when I say trash like a balloon or or or a bag or something. >> Yeah.

I'm so sorry I have random loud hiccups. Um, [laughter] so those that were truly anomalous I would say I mean very very small percent but they were still there and again I only saw a small fraction of things because I only supported it from NGA and what was sent to me. Um, so I didn't see all the data that was out there and I didn't look at much historical data either because that was already analyzed by the pre predecessors. Um so the most impactful one that I have talked about um I call it the flying brain and uh some people call this shape um I've heard jellyfish I've heard oh there's another um same phrase for it but it's it looks like a brain with a little bit of a stem and um but what I saw had a plasma around it and it changed and morphed and um it was a video and it was covered for quite a few minutes um to where you could actually see it change shape and that was insane. >> Yeah.

So, the jellyfish shape that people have talked about uh is a real UAP category. Um it's something that you've seen absolutely anomalous. Yeah. Interesting. I've had a lot of friends that have seen jellyfish looking objects in person like at their homes throughout the world.

So I know it is a common thing but at the time we called it a flying brain because that's what it looked like. >> Um have you seen the recent videos put out by Jeremy Corbel and uh great George >> Nap. >> Can you say anything about those videos? Have you seen them before or >> I have seen them and I unfortunately cannot discuss it. >> Okay. Um, no grade of authenticity then.

[laughter] >> Um, yeah, I was I was very surprised to see it. Um, I was very surprised to see what video it was. Um, I I'm starting to fidget because I don't want to lie and I don't want to say the wrong thing. >> No, I appreciate that. Thank you for doing this balancing act.

>> I I I will say it is very frustrating that someone illegally provides classified data to the media and to the public. Um, I don't understand why somebody would do that and take advantage of their clearance because it is something that is a serious matter and you sign documents and you sign your life away that if you do what they did, you go to jail. >> Yeah. >> And um I just get more and more frustrated that somebody is doing this. Um, yes, the public should see some of these things, but they should see it in a legal way.

>> Yeah. >> Um, I am all for disclosure. I am all for, you know, downgrading a lot of the classified information that we have, but to do it in the proper way is how it should be done. Um, yeah, I I unfortunately can't can't discuss that video though in detail. >> It's it's interesting to me.

It's like I I totally understand what you're saying. Um but there is this frustration in the community that that legal process seems to be either broken or moving so slowly that um the the videos aren't getting out. And uh I think that that's the that explains the satisfaction that comes from the public when they see something like this. They're like, "Oh, finally there's something new." And that they're clamoring for it constantly. And I think that that appetite is partly what motivates these releases is that people are trying to um you know satisfy this the public's urge for for more information.

I'm interested you know you were someone who was involved in in the UAP task force and then you saw the evolution uh up close into Arrow and sort of the closing of the doors that followed um with that their formation. Do you think the government is working toward disclosure? Is there an effort somehow somewhere to help? I mean, and of course, you know, I understand that the government isn't, you know, a unified hole. There isn't some brain in a jar somewhere that's making all these decisions and trying to be coherent. It's all over the map and different people have different motivations. But do you feel like if if we were just to say, "Okay, let's just settle down and trust the government to slowly come clean on this," that we would get satisfaction or do you think that disclosure is going to have to come from somewhere else? >> I I've been saying this for a while and I still feel really strongly in this opinion that disclosures come in from public.

Whoa, that wasn't a proper sentence. disclosure will come from the public before it comes from the government. Um I know recently there has been some uh rumor rumor intelligence is is you know there anyways intel joke but there's been rumor [laughter] okay but there's been uh rumors and uh public I don't know statements made that >> the president will be announcing some disclosure stuff as soon but I mean that's flavor of the day right we hear that so much over the years that something's happening soon and and 2027 and 2020 like all these numbers and dates and and soon is such a subjective word. Um but it'll happen with from the public first. It's going to happen by, you know, us talking here and um other media people, Ross Colthart being so brave and taking taking on this beast of UAP and spirituality and consciousness and um it's going to happen with us first, then the government admitting it.

They're they're going to have a lot to dig out of once that disclosure happens. And I'm hopeful, of course. I mentioned earlier I'm an optimist. And um I mean that's why I keep doing what I'm doing is to make progress. And I don't like to use the phrase move the needle because that that is a very common phrase in this community.

Um because needles move and sway and pivot. And I think um we've been making, you know, steady work paving the road together versus what the government's doing. and um it keeps throwing distractions once there is progress made. So um public's the way to go. >> Yeah.

It's interesting to me. I mean I don't want to get overly political here, but uh with Donald Trump and given all of the circumstances in the context of what he's operating in right now politically, if he were to come out and say aliens are real, I don't know that that would even accomplish what a lot of people hope it would accomplish. It's like most people who don't like Donald Trump would be like, "Oh, that's another chaff he's throwing up in the air to block, you know, Epstein stuff or whatever." So, it's I'm of the opinion at this point that we're politically so mired in polarization that um absent some concrete craft that they wheel out and say, "Here it is." People are going to think it's a lie, it's a scop, it's, you know, and half the country is immediately going to dismiss it anyway. So, I think it needs to be something >> Yeah. something way more uh impactful and um something that maybe isn't sourced like you say within government.

Which brings me back to your uh you know you are someone who is in touch with your own uh um you know uh intuitive capabilities. Um when did that start and when did you feel like that you had identified within yourself some sort of uh immaterial connection to the bigger thing? Um, and how has that manifested over your life? And did that play any role or shape your thinking as part of your work in the UAP task force? >> Um, all good questions. That's a lot of answers. Um, >> sorry. >> I I will start I guess I guess at at step one.

I my whole life I have um loved ghost stories, ghost books, you know, RL Stein Goosebump books and uh cemeteries. I was always kind of just that kind that weirdo in the friend group and you know, vampires and cryptids and Bigfoots and and then I have seen ghosts since I was little as well. So around um middle school time frame, I uh saw I had my first ghost experience um with with one of my friends and then that progressed from there. So when I was in high school um a grandparent that I was close with, she passed away years prior and she would start coming to me in dreams >> at the time. just like, "Oh, grandma grandma came again and she said this, this, and this or she'll come when like, you know, I've gone through a really bad breakup or or a hard thing in life or a big decision coming up like, do I move out to DC and and not know a soul out there a thousand miles away from all my friends and family and I don't really know what job I'm going to be doing and she'll come to me in a dream and uh so now I know those called are called vivid dreams and she was actually visiting me Um, and those dreams progressed to where other relatives would come visit and then friends would visit me.

And so that like that that little the bubble started growing. Um, and then I had a near-death experience in uh 2012, May of 2012, I had a septtolasty, a deviated septum. Um, called it a rotor rooter straightened out the nose, which you know, I still have sinus issues. Y'all, everybody that knows me in person knows I don't go anywhere without a tissue. Um, >> I also have a deviated septum, so I feel you there, by the way.

Um, just so you know, >> it's like like it's a basic human thing to breathe. And I somehow decided to incarnate and never be able to breathe properly. Um, so after my near-death experience from that surgery, I started having psychic abilities develop and but at first they were things for myself and it was just like weird odd things once in a while where I would have like a weird feeling on my leg for a few days and that feeling would grow and I'm like what in the heck? And and then when the when the sensation would stop, I I I got hit by a softball by a wild pitch. I was playing fast pitch softball and I got hit by a wild pitch in the same spot that hurt. So I was like, >> that's weird.

>> Okay, that's weird, right? That's that's that's weird. And [clears throat] and it would be stuff like that. like I would predict things for myself and then that started growing and expanding and having other thing like other uh friends I was starting to predict things for and that really started freaking me out. And I had a friend um while I was in um grad school I was also working full-time so I had like no time to even sleep. There were there were months in my life that I've completely forgotten because I'd be up till 4 in the morning and have to get up at 6:00 for work.

And um and so during that time, a person I had just met um didn't know each other that well, his grandmother came to me in a dream. And that was when I was like, I'm out. I don't know what's happening to me. >> Did you know her? >> Freaking freaking the fork out. It was It was >> Huh? Did you know her prior? >> No.

Nope. And we had never talked about dead relatives and like we barely even talked to begin with because we just met. And um and it was >> it was I was freaking out so badly because I knew everything about her. She had pearls on. I knew how she smelled.

I knew like the style of her hair, where her part was. And I knew she didn't speak English. It was so scary to me that I I was like, I either need to be locked up or I need I I don't I need to find help. And so I I found a psychic medium that wasn't too far from my house. And I love this part of the story because it blends all my worlds together.

So I briefed the director of NSA, a four-star general. So I briefed him that morning on some of my projects I was doing. um not UAP related. Um I briefed him that morning and left the briefing and went to my psychic medium appointment. And at the end of that session, the the the person in front of me, she became my teacher, but um at the time she was a stranger and she told me, "You could be in my seat.

They're showing you in my seat one day." And I was like, "Yep, I'm in. I just have to get through grad school first. like I don't have time to to learn two different things at one point. I want to focus on one and the other. Um so a month after I graduated grad school, I started my spiritual training.

>> Um there's so many questions I have about all of that. And it's it's interesting because I in my own journey am trying to chase some of that realization that I mean cuz it sounds like it was all coming real to you like you were suddenly confronted with the fact that all of this was real. Well, real quick synchronicity between us. I had one of my clearest precognitive moments, which I don't have very often, um, at a softball game, a fast pitch softball game where my daughter was playing and she was at bat and, um, as the pitcher was pitching, I knew my daughter was going to hit it, what part of the field it was going to go to, and what it would like. I just had an image of her running to first base, all of it.

And it just came to pass exactly like I had seen it. And it was uh, it blew me away, but it's neither here nor there. Um, >> yeah, it was it was uh and I was just getting into this stuff and doing some heavy meditation and I felt like I was just, you know, kind of being getting a signal from the universe that you're on the right path because I don't I don't count myself as a psychic by any stretch of the imagination, but I have these moments sometimes where I feel like I know what's going to happen and the immediate next moment kind of just a flash. >> You know, I'm I'm sure you've heard this by now. 100% of people are born with the psychic medium abilities.

>> I've heard this. Yeah. it it's just weeded out of us when we're little because, you know, stop doing that. That's an imaginary friend. No, that's fake.

Go back outside and play. I don't want to hear about it. And so we we tend to shut that off at a young age. Usually by seven or eight is when things start um you know getting shut down um because the world is telling us to. So we are all born with it.

We just have to come back to it as adults. Well, and I'm actively working on that with a group of friends and associates. We're doing a remote viewing kind of college among ourselves where we're researching it and teaching ourselves how to how to do it. So, I have faith in that and I'm working on it. But, um, can you describe for us? It sounds like the near-death experience was formative to who you ultimately became and what um, you know, what's happened in your life.

Can you talk about uh, what occurred there and what you um, after it was over, how you felt about the world we're in? Um, I'll start with the latter. Um, how I felt about the world after the experience honestly didn't change. >> Okay. >> I've always been an optimistic, bubbly, sparkly, light person. Like um, light as not as in light as in weight, but like light as in a lighthouse.

Um, so I've always been that person. I've always been able to see the bright side of things and the cup always being full because there's still energy in the cup when it's empty. Um, so that that really didn't change. And after I woke up, I just I remembered a lot of chaos happening around me. lots of doctors, lots of nurses, people saying things like, "I had a pulmonary embolism and we don't know what happened, but we're going to treat it like a PE." And I remember my thoughts and being like, I'm like, I don't really know what that is.

I'll like Google that later. And and my ex I was with at the time, I was like, "Oh, he's had some medic training. I'll ask him." And so, like, I remember all my thoughts and being like, "Why are they freaking out? God said I'd be fine." So, but what what happened was the surgery went well, but in the recovery room, um I initially woke up and I asked for stickers when I wake up from a surgery and it's to a point now where I just warn nur the nursing staff because I guess one time they didn't have stickers and I don't remember this, but I kind of kind of lost my marbles a little bit um because there weren't stickers ready for me. So now I now I worn them and so there was uh stickers that I got and I'm like so excited. I work so hard for my stickers and um I was like, "Oh, can I go back to sleep?" And she was like, "Yeah, I'll wake you back up." The you know, the recovery room nurse.

And so I'm holding my stickers. I'm so proud of cuz that was hard work. And I closed my eyes and I saw blackness and I heard the nurse say, "Oh my god, she's not breathing." And I thought, "Who's not like I don't I don't remember who else was in here with me, but I pray that they're okay." And it was me. And then the next thing I know, I am in heaven. And I was I had a different NDE than what the common thing is of like, oh, I was walking with Jesus and and I all these colors like I was in complete pure blackness, but I knew who was around me.

I knew my grandma was right here. I knew another loved one was right there. I knew a grandpa was here. And I was completely surrounded by the most beautiful intense feeling of love and peace you could imagine. Like >> you close your eyes and you take a deep breath and you imagine love completely encasing you.

>> It's more than that. And uh nothing else existed but love and peace and my family. And then all of a sudden I heard a voice say, "You got to go back." And I was like, "Back where? I'm no thank you." >> Yeah. >> And so I argued argued with God, source, whoever who whomever you know your your source might be. Um for me it's God.

And so I argued with God and then my family started teaming up um against me. It was like, "Are you all kidding me?" And they're like, "Well, we'll be with you. Like you're not done yet." And I'm like, "I'm I've got free will, guys." like no and like no you don't. And then the next thing I knew I woke up. >> So I just it was um impactful from for many reasons uh for years instead of questioning a like the typical questions I've heard people from NDEs have.

I questioned why blackness? I want to see my family. >> Yeah. >> Why didn't I get to see them? Why did I only hear their voices? And so it took 10 years to get that answer. But I did meet another person that um was telling a story about they had multiple NDEs. I think they had two or three.

I know at least two. And his first one was blackness. And he said that Sarah um you know what you experienced was you know in the Bible God had to bring everything to light. God turned on the lights. So what you experienced was before there was light, there was only love.

H So it was so super cool. Um it took me a long time to grasp those words and after 10 years I finally got answers and um now it'll be 14 years. This will be my 14th anniversary. Um so it was an interesting thing because I remember so much. I remember thoughts.

I remember, you know, I don't think I remember my first moment of waking up, but I remember the chaos and what was happening to my body and not understanding. So, I don't I don't want to get too graphic because people people sometimes get get queasy talking about the, you know, the the stuff running through your veins. Um, but things were happening to my body that I didn't understand, but I didn't feel pain, which is common from NDEs. and um even finally get into the ICU which took about 3 to four hours I think it was to stabilize me. I could have that wrong now actually.

Um but it was a long time to stabilize me to transport me um from the outpatient surgery center to the to a hospital um and the nurse the ICU nurse coming in and asking to call my parents. And I was like no God God said I'd be fine. Like I don't want to I don't want to worry them. Mother's Day is coming up. like, "No, no, no.

You know, my my dad's got spring farming to do because I grew up on a farm and I'm like, I can't we we can't interrupt them. I'm going to be okay." And so the last time the nurse came in, um I I I gave the head nod yes because my ex Oh, there's Krypton. My ex didn't know what was Oh my gosh. My ex didn't know what was happening. And so he's like, "I can't What am I going to tell your parents? I don't know what to say." and and so I just gave the head nod and um yeah, so life life has just been to me normal since other than the psychic things starting to happen.

Well, >> that is a beautiful story and thank you for sharing it. Um it's it's interesting to me there is a um a little bit of a polarity within the UFO community um about how much the spiritual and the euphological intersect. Uh I am one who I think is sort of all in on the idea that they're related in some sense and that the universe is um you know potentially what the UAP maybe at least in part is a signal from source or the cosmos trying to remind us of things that maybe we've forgotten or never known about the nature of uh what is um you're someone who has been at both ends of it where you have uh looked at the concrete flying machines um and analyzed them and did what you [clears throat] could uh sort of systematize um all of that, but then you've also had a huge metaphysical uh experiences and encounters that have um you know shaped your your own personal philosophy. Where do you fall on the nature of UAP? Do you think that um they I mean the extraterrestrial hypothesis is one hypothesis it's all over the map. Where do you fall on the nature of them? And are they beings independently of us, just another race, or are they something other? >> Um, yes, all the above.

>> There you go. In in undergrad, you know, in undergrad when my brain was well, it wasn't purely a I was going to say purely a scientist, but I've always been a molder and a scolie from Xfiles. There's now cat hair everywhere. Um, this was Krypton, everybody. Um, so I've always had both sides of my brain active, but in undergrad it was more so um, you know, science, you know, based.

And when people would ask me then if I thought we were alone, why would we have infinite amount of space and it just be us? And now I've I I have transitioned that response to imagine how diverse we are here on earth and what that would be amplified to infinity. So we are so diverse and it is so hard to find, you know, two people exactly alike other than of course like genetically twins, right? But um go like look at infinite amount of space and just think about how many different races and beings and spacecraft and all kinds of different things that could be out there. So, um, you we have surpassed the question, are we alone decades ago? And I like now that there has been a transition in the UAP community. People have really stopped asking if we're alone and started asking who are they and where are they coming from? Um, and are they here? And it's it's an exciting thing to witness and I'm glad we're finally educated enough and have accepted enough that we aren't alone. Um, but yeah, I mean, pick a dot in the sky and I bet there's, you know, multiple races within that one little one degree of visibility.

>> Now, do you think the spiritual though is also a part of what the UAP may be? >> Yes. And I uh what was neat, so things that happen, you know, on your journey, you don't know why they happened at the time and then eventually you're like that's why that's why that happened a few years ago. So, um, I was doing I used to go to the Oregon Ghost Conference. It's in Seaside, Oregon, uh, around springtime, like spring break, March every year, uh, middle to end of March. And, um, sorry, my cat.

So, I was doing a live ghost hunt and so I'm at the facility in Oregon and somebody else on our team was uh like somebody was in Tombstone, Arizona and they have ghost hunting equipment, SLS camera, which I don't I need to look up the acronym because I don't remember what that stands for anymore, but it's the the camera that pro produces the stick figures if anybody um uh knows what I'm talking about. So, I will be doing like my mediumship stuff and I'll say, "Oh, you know, stop. If you turn to the left, you're going to see XYZ. It's going to be this tall. It's going to have these kind of fingers." And so, I start describing what I'm seeing.

And then I realized that's an alien. It's like a seven, eight foot tall. And and you know, like really long fingers. And I was like, "That's a that's an alien." And so that was also past the time of me being on the task force. So like my world had already collided, but this was a new thing.

Like we're we're live, right? There's an audience that paid to watch me do this and to participate as well. And so when they turned the camera over to what I described, it was exactly I mean this stick figure was to a tea what I described, how it was sitting, how it was behaving, the mannerisms. Um, which was really cool as a medium. Like I don't think I'll ever get used to having immediate reaction or validation from something. Um but that was the moment of like why I could say with confidence these things are married.

NHI alien spirituality they are married and I can I can say it from personal experience not from a meditation from other people witnessing it. And um and I've had encounters since then in my life during either meditations or my spiritual practice, healing sessions. So sometimes Arcturans will come um to help me provide healing for a client. Um so yeah, it's it's all one. I mean everything is energy, right? So they just know how to operate at a different frequency than our eyes and sometimes mind can see.

>> Yeah. Um it's interesting you are I've heard that you're a Christian if you don't mind me talking about um faith uh issues. Um how do you accommodate the the two realities? And do you think I mean one of the things that people often talk about are uh um whether or not people who are religiously minded will have the hardest time with encountering this or if they'll actually have an easier time because they already embrace maybe the extra physical. Um do you do you see the coming collision there? >> Yeah. Um I do some days I see it and then others I don't.

Um because that optimism comes uh prevalent comes comes forward in my mind. Um, I did definitely grow up in a religious household in a religious community. And I now consider myself more spiritual than religious. Like I still pray to God and I and I my daddy is a minister and I go home and I love listening to him preach and his sermons and learning from him. Um, but it's not quite the same.

I don't quite agree all the time with um so I grew up Presbyterian and some of the stuff that is said I'm like no no that that's not me anymore but I don't get angry or anything like that of course because um we still need structure in our lives and um I love my church family a member a very you know pivotal pillar in our my church family growing up recently passed and um so I would wouldn't change that for anything. Um, but there was a time when somebody asked me, you know, you're a scientist and you're religious. How do you believe that others are here from outer space? And I'm like, why does it have to be two different buckets? Like, why is it a this or a that? And that made no sense to me. And that was before really my spiritual journey started. I I I physically didn't understand how somebody made it this way system of you if you're religious, you cannot believe that we're not alone.

And um so now of course that journey's grown to where I'm I think I'm trying to answer your um your part about the the religion aspect. I think that the church as a whole, like no matter what church you go to, what religion that you're a part of, um I think it'll be pivotal whenever contact happens and disclosure happens. It's a safe place for people, especially a generational family who's always gone to the same church and practiced the same religion. Um it's going to be more important than ever. And you'd be surprised at how many practitioners in the churches are on board with we're not alone.

I mean, God, you talks about a lot of it. Well, not God, but the Bible talks about it. Um, not often, but a couple of times that um we have visitors and I mean, angel Gabriel coming down to announce the the birth of of Jesus happening. Um, you know, some entity coming down from the sky. Sounds >> human like an alien to me.

Oh, >> yeah. >> Ripana green. >> That's an on human intelligence right there. [laughter] >> I did name him because of Superman. So >> yes, >> you are someone who has embraced this new reality and is you know working on sort of uh preparing yourself or exploring that reality for for your own uh well-being.

What would you like how do you think the world can prepare? I mean and individuals who are interested in this topic and want to embrace all sides of it. Uh what's what's the best way to approach this uh coming reality if in fact we do ultimately have disclosure? How would you advise people to confront it? >> Love. >> Amen. >> That's it. >> Love.

Um I mean just when you you know Chris Bledsoe is a well-known person for um communicating with orbs. He doesn't like to use the word summoning them in because they come in at their own free will, but he asks them to and they visit. Um but he approaches that with love. the times that I have been able to you bring in orbs as well. So, I've been able to do that a couple of times now.

[clears throat] I approach it with love. I don't have a prayer like uh Chris has, but I do my own type of, you know, talking with them and letting them know I'm don't have ill intent and I don't need to video it if you don't want me to. And um and it's it's all about love because that's also what they want. And a part of me is like no wonder why they haven't shown up on the White House lawn with a glass of wine because they'd be approached with guns, right? Like and we're shooting things down from the sky and um I mean they've been here for thousands of years. So that also frustrates me like we respond with force instead of like well they they've been here for a really long time and they've never actually shot us down.

Um so yeah so love >> I I love that and I was I had a conversation with a fellow who has uh developed anformational theory of of a lot of this stuff and it's basically another language for describing reality. Um and basically uh he what he describes as coherence is another word for love and the universe is seeking um deep penetrating coherence and that is what we experience um I think of uh as as love and I think that's profound. Um I think a lot of us have forgotten how to have um how to love unfortunately. >> Yeah. >> No, I agree and I like that I like you using the word coherence.

I might end up stealing that from you because my science brain um thinks about coherence as wavelengths sinking up. >> Yeah. >> Which is what love is, right? So, um and then from the spiritual side of things, I it's not an uncommon phrase for people to hear. You attract what who you are in the moment. So, like wherever you're at in your learning journey, maybe you've gone through a dark time, depressed, sad, you're going to attract a lot of the same people because you're going to have to help each other out of that.

>> And then if you're happy and you're at a different level that you don't you're you're out of that depression, you're going to attract those people too at that frequency. >> And so the coherence uh I like that a lot. So my my science brain all it sees is wavelengths and um that also equates to love. >> Yeah. >> Thank you.

>> And no and thank him. It was his word. And I think that uh it's interesting because so much of what we talk about in this space especially um sometimes we feel like we're in different camps because we're using different terms. But if we think about um the language we're using and try to find commonalities, often we're talking about exactly the same things. We're just using um you know different languages and words.

And that's something that we need to try and overcome a little bit um as we move forward. [laughter] >> Um yeah, I uh if you were, you know, the person who was in charge of of of the federal government and and the secrecy that was has been going on for for these 80 years, how would you um [clears throat] go about the disclosure process? Do you have any thoughts on what the government should do in terms of the secrecy that's been held? And there's obviously potentially some criminality that's also unfolded there and potentially people who may um find themselves legally, you know, in the crosshairs. So, what would you advise if you feel like you can do that? >> No one's asked me that. Um, I mean, my my first reaction would be to start saying, "I'm sorry. I'm sorry the people that were murdered keeping this secret.

I'm sorry for the soldiers who died on recovery missions and that the government never acknowledged why they suddenly got the cancers that they did because I know all of this happened. These are facts." Um, I would continue to apologize to many more people and including those who have passed away decades ago. Um, and then I would say it's time for the truth. I um I mean Roswell was real. Um, and there's, you know, the the Virginia, the Brazil case, um, 1996 and the 30th anniversary just happened from that and I was able to be at the national press release, national press club, uh, in DC that James Fox put on and got to hear all the amazing accounts in person.

That's real. You know, somehow the materials, the craft, the bodies that were recovered alive and not alive disappeared and us people were there. Um, I want to know the truth behind them. I want those people who passed away from, you know, touching materials where so I'm thinking of of the Brazil case. There was the very young officer, military officer who died from him actually picking up one of the alien bodies and he had like a laceration and that became infected and they don't know what happened to him and >> um but he died very very quickly after the encounter and um and it's really sad.

There's a lot of sadness around this topic. kind of don't know how I'm not crying right now because I know firsthand of some soldiers that have passed away because of being a part of recovery missions and their families not having answers. Um so yeah, start with an apology and then start from the beginning. I would start with Roswell. >> Yeah.

You think one of the things that people talk about is that the government feels helpless in the face of UAP and that if they admit that they're real, they're admitting that they can't defend against a an existential threat that humanity faces and that might undermine its uh legitimacy as a governing body. Do you think that's really an issue or do you think that humanity might come together in the face of a collective threat? Um, I I grew up in Missouri where there are tornadoes and I like to think of it as an analogy of a tornado coming through. I mean, they're destructive. You can't really tell where they're going. You don't know if it's going to dissipate and reappear, which I have seen.

I've I've seen a hopper. Um, and >> but what happens after a hurricane, tornado, what happens after these storms? people come together to rebuild. And I think that's exactly what's going to happen. It'll it'll be a little chaos for a little bit and then we'll unite. And I truly, of course, that might be my optimism, but I truly believe that it'll be good overall for uh the globe for everybody uniting after the the storm had settled and it's time to clean up the yard and to rebuild a house.

Um, we're gonna help each other. >> Yeah. Um, do you think that there is any malevolent presence within what we consider alien intelligence or is that us projecting our own aggressive kind of is there a bad element as well as a good element or Yeah. >> Yeah. Absolutely.

Um, you know, the universe has to have balance good and the bad. So that's not just for you know spiritually talking here knowing if I'm going through a rough patch good is coming. It's also good and bad for people and entities as well. So um I have encountered some uh more of the malevolent entities very rarely. So I it hasn't been a common thing but in my spiritual practice over the years I have encountered a couple of negative NHI entities.

Um, and even though they were negative, like one of them I was still able to communicate with. Um, so but I would say that's like super super small percentage, but of course it's out there. And um, in the spiritual world, I sometimes don't like talking about it because I don't know how much Kool-Aid I drink or I don't drink of what people say. But there's, you know, the the reptilian wars and the draconians, which are the reptilians, who come in and destroy um like they take natural resources on a planet and just basically take it over and kill the planet and then they explode it and then they move on. Um so that is a common thing told in the spiritual community.

Um I again I don't know how much Kool-Aid that I want to drink of a lot of those stories, but I've heard it from Thank you, Krypton. He's reminded me his his planet was destroyed. Um, so I yeah, I I think I've heard it enough from multiple people that don't know each other that there's something to it, but I have also encountered some like one of those like reptilian looking things uh in my spiritual practice. So, I know they're out there, but luckily I haven't seen them much. >> Can you um when you say you encounter one, can you describe what that's like? And is there in any way that that my audience might grasp a a way to describe how you handled that? I mean, uh, cuz I've heard different things about people when they have encounters like this where some people say if they invoke Jesus's name, even if they're not necessarily a Christian, that sometimes has a power to offer a protective kind of energy.

I mean, what's what do you do? >> So, um, I I like you bringing up the Jesus part because, um, I mentioned love earlier. What is Jesus? Jesus is love. He taught love. He embodied love. So whenever you bring up Jesus, your intent is to bring in love.

Um so that uh kudos to to whoever was doing that. Um I as you know uh a spiritual practitioner, I know and I'm very confident that I am stronger than anything that else is out there. Um I say that I have God's light and love inside of me and I mean each of us do. So um we all are able to fight whatever is there. We have a physical body.

They don't um you know laws of physics still abide. Um nothing no matter can be created or destroyed. So I'm sorry. >> It's okay. The cat comes first.

I know how it goes. >> [laughter] >> So um when I have encountered negative maybe not only NHI but negative spirits I go in knowing I am stronger than you f off you know or I am stronger than you you have to listen to me. So a lot of spiritual work is about boundaries and intent. So that intent of calling Jesus in that's the intent of love bringing in and that love is stronger than what that negative entity is because negativity and um that type that vibration's down here and so love is the highest vibration you could be so that that will fight anything lower >> um so when I have encountered like the um the reptilian uh during one of my um clients sessions, I immediately was like, "No, you're not you're not getting this." And they actually it tried to bully me before the session even started, which is what I've heard at that time. I'd never really encountered many negative things, but I've heard from like, >> you know, Tyler Henry, so he's a a famous psychic medium and um I love love love watching his show and how he delivered messages to people.

But I knew from him that or watching his show because I don't know him personally. Um but things would happen to try to dissuade to do our work because they know we're coming. Um so I go in with the intent that you know you're just a bully and I'm stronger than you and so I could take care of you. I could send you away. I could banish you.

I have the power. I have a body. You don't. You have to abide by my rules here. And so that's kind of how I go in is I I get, you know, the the stern mother voice and point the finger and tell it to sit down and might not always sit down and and fully listen to me, but I still get the job done.

>> Yeah. No, that's fascinating. One of the things that I've heard from folks uh both in the UAP and the spiritual space is that uh there's something about humans um that has I mean the divine spark maybe and uh some of these uh intelligences that people encounter uh don't and envy that and try to suck on that energy through us um and that's why we have more power in those moments. Is that something that you would ascribe to as well? >> Absolutely. We have um when I mentioned, you know, we all have God's love and light inside of us.

We um we all have that God spark. We are all co-creators on this planet together. So, we were born with this light and um Yes, absolutely. >> No, I love that. Um it's pretty much all I had for you.

Fantastic conversation. I wanted to Did plasma ever come up as part of the UAP task force? Um yeah, that was a a part of um the flying brain I mentioned. There was like a plasma around it. Um so some of some of the videos and stuff that I did get to see whether it be classified or unclassified because we looked at both mediums. >> Um >> would appear to have a plasma around it, but sometimes like the video quality just wasn't the best.

So it had to be inconclusive, right? You need more data. You >> can't tell if it's an artifact. Yeah. >> Yeah. Exactly.

>> Yeah. The reason why I ask is because there's been uh some research done about the possibility of uh plasma intelligence and um the condine report which Britain put out and I guess in the early as talks about plasma behaving very much like UAP and so I wonder at some points if what we're seeing is a manifestation of plasma. And then I also go down the rabbit hole of maybe the soul is plasma and maybe what we're experiencing in consciousness in our bodies is some sort of plasmotic kind of thing. But >> that's all deep rabbit hole. >> I love that because yes, I I would say yes because like what is plasma? Energy.

>> Our soul is energy. Our soul is eternal energy >> in a finite body. >> We're you know we're having a finite experience in this eternal world. And um so yeah, I like that a lot. But we I never so supporting the task force from NGA I was very limited.

We didn't talk about NHI. We didn't talk about conspiracy theories. We didn't we str we stuck strictly to the data to the imagery to the videos to you know it's Venus or parallax birds um you know uh a camera malfunction or something like that. So, we never got into a lot of that type of stuff, but I do know some of the things I've seen and in person have seen completely. Yes.

To the plasma. So, sometimes I I think it is um spirit. >> Yeah. >> Um but again, spirit and UAP are married. So, now I'm like my brain's like starting to have a hard time differentiating the two.

Like when I do some of my uh readings for clients >> and I'll be on a Zoom call, you could see all kinds of like orbs and stuff, but when I turn to look at it, I don't see it with my eyeballs. I'll only see it through the screen. Or I'll even see something come down and then zip back up quickly. And I can't see that with my eyes, but you could plainly see it like if you you hit the record button and watch it back over, >> you could see these things zipping around. Um, but I have seen these orbs like in my house, especially recently.

I have seen them hiking in the woods by myself when, you know, I'm in this ice storm and no one's there. Um, so things are happening more frequently lately uh in person, which is, you know, cool, but also like, okay, what do I do with this now? >> Exactly. Right. And at what point does it become overwhelming or, you know, potentially uh destructive? you got to maintain that balance for your own health, I'm sure. >> Well, thank you Sarah for a fantastic conversation.

I deeply appreciate you and all the work that you've done. Um, so thank you. >> Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me on and giving me space to talk.