“The NSA Hired Me To Speak To Aliens!” -Sergeant Dan Sherman

Transcript

And he said, "I'm gonna play a tone and I want you to mentally hum that tone." And he said that you will eventually feel a connection. The line will change. >> When I saw the sine wave move, I went, "Oh, okay. Well, there's a mental disconnect there that that's not supposed to be happening. That this is not this is not possible.

Our guest today is an Air Force sergeant who worked at the highest levels on classified projects in electronics and signals intelligence for the United States government. We have thorough documentation of his military records. His service is not something you can really argue with, nor is his mental health. This is the most nonchalant conversation I've ever had about alien telepathic communication. [laughter] In this exclusive long- form interview, retired [music] technical sergeant Dan Sherman claims that while serving in the Air Force in the early 90s, [music] he was recruited for an extremely classified program at the NSA or National Security Agency.

This program was called Project Preserve Destiny. Project Preserve Destiny's purpose [music] to telepathically decode alien signals for the NSA. You heard me right. Alien signals that seem to telepathically transmit descriptions of alien abductions across the United States. Alien signals that ultimately gave our very curious guest answers about the very nature of the alien presence on Earth.

How these beings travel, how they conceive of time, [music] what they think about humans, and much, much more. Dan Sherman was originally told by the Air Force captain who read him into the program that he was given this telepathic ability by the aliens themselves when they abducted Sherman's pregnant mother in the early 1960s and altered his genetics while he was a fetus in her womb. This genetic [music] blueprint would allow him to grow into what the NSA would dub an intuitive communicator. With the IC communication, you can feel it in your brain. You can feel now you can't you can't localize it.

It's not a localization, but I can feel like it's in that area of my brain right there. And >> Sherman believes the NSA may even have tracked him since childhood [music] into his young adulthood and military service until he was finally read into the program. >> Do you think that the NSA or Powers that be know that this interview is happening? Because of the extremely sensitive nature of this NSA program and its ties to black programs, Dan tries to abstain mentioning which bases this Project Preserve Destiny [music] was conducted at. But my researchers and I were able to locate one of these bases. And I bring it up at the end of this interview, catching Sherman a bit offguard.

Not only that, but at the end of this video, we explore an independent researcher's use of the Freedom of Information Act to learn more about Project Preserve Destiny. He sent a request to the government to see all of the files on it. As you'll see, both the Air Force and NSA's responses to his request are fairly telling. The point is, the skeptics can have at it, but this case isn't going away. It's very hard to dismiss.

I'd argue that Dan Sherman's story is one of the most important UFO legacy program related accounts we have to contend with. So sit back, relax, and prepare to have your worldview crumble with this week's very courageous American alchemist, retired sergeant, intuitive alien communicator, and UFO whistleblower, Dan Sherman. Dan Sherman, thank you so much for being here. This for me is a dream come true and has been a long time coming. Uh I've read your incredible book Above Black and it documents uh an experience that to me is so fascinating.

It's kind of in some ways high strangeness. It doesn't comport with a lot of the other stories. And so that to me that's uh that is like the perfect combo of like what I want to investigate because you seem like a really cool lucid guy and then you're talking about being an intuitive communicator, you know, downloading signals uh from aliens for the NSA. >> Yeah. >> Which is pretty amazing.

>> It is. Uh and downloading is an interesting uh description, but uh it definitely was. you couldn't see it, so it looked like it was downloading >> or decryting or I don't know. Yeah, >> receiving. I I I'd like to say receiving, but >> receiving.

Yeah. Okay. Why do you like to say that? >> Well, downloading kind of uh um denotes some sort of machine or you know, we we associate downloading with uh bits and and data and it wasn't like that. It was just a thought. It was a thought that came.

So I I just trying to keep it organic as opposed to machine related. And I know we got you know in the book I talk about machines and and how I interface with the computer and all that. So there is a machine component in my training but after that it wasn't really much of a machine. So >> right well why don't we take things back to your to your childhood. Uh where'd you grow up? >> Um grew up in a lot of places.

Uh between kindergarten and 12th grade I I went to 27 schools. So >> 27 schools. >> Yeah. >> What was the reason for that? >> We just moved a lot. My my dad was a welder and we were very very poor and um just you know went with the wind and and of course I had step parents and I went to live with my grandma and my aunt and you know there was a lot of broken home type situation too.

So it was going from one place to another all the time. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> But there was no sort of military brat dynamic. Your dad was just a welder.

>> Yeah. No, there was no military component. >> Interesting. And you just even being here today is sort of unlikely, right? Because your your mother was having trouble giving birth for a long time and you were kind of >> an anomaly. >> Yeah.

The doctors uh she had a an accident when she was like 10 or 11. She fell off the tailgate of a a pickup truck and her special organs were messed up and the doctors basically said she'd never carry a baby to term. And um and she had many miscarriages, but I was the only one that I like to say I was the only miscarriage that came [laughter] that was uh that lived. Anyway, so it it was definitely an interesting >> um correlation, I guess, to the to the story after I found out about, you know, what I found out about kind of correlated was like, well, maybe there was some protective angels there somehow. So, >> yeah.

Well, everybody listening now should put a pin in what you just said because >> we can't get ahead of ourselves, right? >> We can't. But there are some very interesting details to come about your mother. So, what made you want to become um Air Force electronics intelligence? I we managed some horse stables in Iba City, California. And uh we had a a person who um boarded their horse there and he was a major in the Air Force and he was a SR71 pilot. And of course that fascinated me.

Here I am a fourth grader, you know, being able to interface with somebody who's been on the news that met President Carter, you know, that he was like a hero to me. and um and we would talk he I remember conversations with him when we were watching his daughter uh ride the horse that they were boarding. Um he would tell me about flying in the Air Force and as a kid, you know, you get enamored with stuff like that and it it stuck with me and and so I definitely wanted to and I was very patriotic as well. So I I really wanted to do something in that realm which is serving. So it kind of came all together when I was in high school.

And >> were you interested in tech or electronics or signals or anything like that? >> I was always interested in in technology. And of course, you know, in 1974 when I met him, um, technology was a color TV. You know, there there wasn't really any technology per se, just science fiction and that Star Trek and, you know, all that stuff. Um, so I was definitely interested in that, but as time went on, yes, I became more and more interested when tech became more advanced and I definitely a techie. Definitely.

>> Mhm. Okay. So, how long did you serve? Just generically as >> 12 years. Okay. >> 12 years.

I was in the Air Force for 12 years. >> Okay. And where were you stationed? I >> I was stationed in Korea, Italy, um, Colorado, North Dakota, uh, Nebraska, and Texas for a while. And I went TDY of course temporary duty for my schooling at Fort Ne uh with at the NSA headquarters and um Philippines and uh Japan. So I I went a lot of places.

To the crazy skeptics out there, would you be able to produce like a DD214 or like your service record? >> Yeah, I I can't. >> The the main point of asking about the DD214 thing is to the super skeptic that's out there. Oh, yeah. You have a service record and there's really no way to deny that you were Air Force electronics intelligence at the very least. >> Yeah.

>> And so you get called to go to a school for electronics intelligence like for like upgrading your skill set or something. >> Well, when I went into the military, I went in as a security uh security policeman. I was just a police and and um at the time that I was taking the tests for the uh to get in, you know, the ASVAD tests and the things that they they um test you on to get you into the military and to also place you. They said that I qualified for for every every job in the Air Force, but I'd have to wait x amount of time if I wanted x job. And I didn't want to wait.

I was 18. I was out of the military or out of the uh out of school and graduated and I just wanted to go. So I said just get me in any any career field that you you have available right now. So that was it. So I went in and um and then after about five four or five years I applied for a cross trainin and that's when I was crossrained into elint.

>> Okay. >> So >> can you say where you were based when you applied for the cross training? >> Yeah. um Montana. I was in Montana and my first base as an eler was in off at Air Force Base in Omaha. >> Okay, got it.

And so what as just for the audience basic context, what are you doing as an elen air force officer? >> Um we had different collection platforms. You have satellite, you have um aircraft, you you have um even vehicles. We have collectors that collect enemy information. They collect the radio transmissions of of um border areas or even over a country and we collect that electronic emissions and then we as the e- lenders we uh analyze all that electronic communications and what type of uh electronic um emission it is whether radar or comms or um even lasers and any type of emission that comes from a country we kind delineate and parse out what it is and then we look at it for intelligence value and then if it does have like let's say it's a TV station well we know that and so that's not intelligence value although it could be intelligence value for other intelligence uh fields but not us and so we look at the stuff that has to do with radars and and um military assets that are going to sense us as their enemy We need to build jamming packages that allow us to >> completely >> control the airspace. And we didn't build the jamming packages, but we gave them the parameters by which they they looked at it.

The jam jamming people looked at it and they built their packages based on what we gave them. >> Gotcha. And so what happens? You're you're based at off it and you're told that you should go to some schooling. Well, I went to school initially for the career field in in um San Angelo, Texas. >> And then um I became certified, you know, and and became an eler and then that's when I went to Offet.

Well, I went to Offet before, but then um just for a little bit, but then I went to school and then back to Offit. And um I was put up for going to a continuation course, which is called EA280. you know, you become qualified and then you got to do continuation courses to get you better qualified. And that was what EA2 280 was. And that's what sent me to the NSA complex.

>> And then when I got to got there, they sprung this other thing on me and said, "You're going to be going to another school while you're here." And I was like, "Oh." >> So describe exactly what happened. So you go to the NSA complex is in Maryland. Is that right? >> Yeah. It's in Laurel, Maryland. And there's a big huge sprawling building there.

Now, make sure everybody understands this is 30 some years ago. Now, since then, maybe they've changed things. I don't know. You know, I'm not up on the locations, but we're talking circa 1990s. Okay.

At that time, there's a big huge black black building, glass building. It's called the um I think they called it the black box even, but um it's the NSA headquarters building in Laurel. And um that's where I went to get my security cl. Well, actually, back up. Um we went to a hotel and here's an interesting little thing.

Have has nothing to do with PPDB, PPD, but um this is a multi-service school. So they have Marines, they have Navy, Air Force, and um and Army. And so all four services are going in in the same class. And so you have people coming from different bases, army bases, navy bases. And um this is the difference between the Air Force and everybody else.

The Air Force put up put us up on the two Air Force guys that were there. We got put up in Holiday in and all the other services had to stay in dorms and and it was a contention. believe me [laughter] when the other services are what you're you're saying at what [laughter] holiday in like well you should have went in the air force dude. Um so anyway we stayed at the holiday end and then I got a call um a random call after I got there from the captain um and um he said he needed to meet with me. So he told me where to go at the NSA complex.

I never really had a need to go to the NSA complex myself. Yeah. >> Um until he told me that that was what I had to do cuz cuz the there's other buildings and AL buildings and all kinds of stuff in that area of Maryland that that NSA controls and so you can just go to wherever that is for yours. >> So you think you're here just for Air Force continuing education, but you're told that you have to go to the NSA complex and just again for the audience basic context, what is the NSA? uh National Security Agency. Um it it just it's basically in charge of all of the intelligence that that America does.

>> All signals intelligence known as no such agency. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's one of the jokes they say. >> Why why do you think it um is so much it's it's sort of less wellknown than like the CIA is like the proverbial, you know, archetypal intelligence agency.

Yeah. >> And then the NSA, you know, it's known as no such agency. It's like, you know, you hear rumors of like mathematicians in Virginia or whatever, but you don't really know what's going on there. >> Cryptographers, you know, the CIA is is a human asset and they use they're they're they're very uh closely intertwined with the NSA because they use NSA assets and NSA uses CI CIA's assets, too. So, it is it there's a there's a synergy there.

Um, but the CIA is the the the face of collecting information from other countries, >> foreign intelligence. That's that's the kind of the face of it, but the underlying base of it is NSA. >> Okay. So, you're here for Air Force. You're in Maryland for Air Force continuing education.

>> What are you thinking when you get called into this NSA? >> Well, it it was I thought I was in trouble. I thought I thought something What did I do wrong? Did I fill something out wrong? But but here's the thing is you don't typically have a an officer, a captain calling you directly and talking to you. Usually it's like some, you know, sergeant or somewhere that's that's giving you information if you need information or calling you in for something. So it was it was a little odd and a little out of character and um or out of the ordinary. And so that of course got my mind racing like what what is this? What? So I I met him at the in the lobby of the NSA.

He told me how to get there and I don't know how detailed you want, but he we had to go through some security stuff. He had to sign me in because my security clearances weren't there yet. >> As detailed as >> Yeah. Yeah. >> My security clearances weren't there.

So and and that is very common in the military. they have to transmit your security clearances to the next base or to your TDY base or class um schooling or whatever. And so they weren't there yet and he had to sign me in. He signed me in and we went in went down the hallways and we he led me to his office and uh he had um now everybody understand this is 30 years ago so it's sometimes hard to remember exactly the the details and and probably the only reason I know as many details as I do know is because I wrote a book about it obviously multiple. >> Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. So, I I've written them and I've said them in interviews and stuff, but um and by the way, this is the first, interestingly enough, every um person that I've talked to about this in the past, like in an interview situation, it's always been a very very canned type of situation where they would ask you a question. >> Yeah. >> I would answer.

Ask me a question, answer. And edited, blah blah blah. You know, it was very This is the first time. And that's one of the reasons why I want to do it is because this is a podcast. It's informal.

It's you can just you can just talk and they and people will also get a feel for >> an unedited Dan as opposed to cuz the the interviews in the past >> they've been re for me anyway to I can't even watch them because they're so cringe. It's just >> Well, you come off as reasonable in all. >> Well, okay. reasonable, but but it seems very stilted because there's no conversation. It's not a conversation.

It's just >> it's not a back and forth natural back and forth. But that that that form of journalism, I think, is dying. I don't think it's like a thing anymore. It's really see-through as fake. It's kind of a boomer legacy thing.

>> Thankfully. Thank >> uh anyway, so where were we? I can't remember now. Um >> so so you're you're you're in this office. >> Okay. So yeah, the the the the different things that um like the technology and stuff.

I remember that there was a retina scanner and but I can't remember if there was a retina scanner at his office. I don't think there was. I think it was just a a cipher, the the button ciphers. Anyway, uh so we get into his office and it's just like a normal um you know, there's a couch and a chair in front of his desk and like a cabinet that had some um water on it or something like that. It was I think there was a sink.

Um anyway, we just sat there and and he unveiled this mindblowing thing to me and you know I'm just a a a boy from Oregon that's as couldn't even imagine something like this happening to him. So >> So what was the rank of this guy? >> Captain All the All my contacts for the project were captains. >> So he's he's sitting down in front of you and and what is he saying exactly? As you know, I'm always on the hunt for things that help me stay sharp, focused, and full of energy while I'm diving into life's mysteries and making this show happen. And I've got to say, Mudwater has completely transformed my mornings. Back in the day, I used to struggle with that post coffee crash.

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Keep your energy natural and refreshing all year long with mud water because life's too short for anything less than clean, delicious energy. He's sitting down in front of you and and what is he saying exactly? He proceeded to tell me that I was um part of a a project that started in 1960, I believe it was, and um and that we it's the genesis of it was in 1947. We came in contact with an alien species and in 1960 they started a a project. It was called Project Preserve Destiny and um it was designed to genetically manage fetuses, human fetuses, so that they would have the heightened ability to do this particular thing that I was going to school for. And um my mother was one of the the selected targets or whatever you want to call it.

Um and her I was conceived in 63. So, um, he said that she was she was abducted a couple years before that and and I think that was for the testing and and trying to get the the right people, you know, to to continue the program with. And so in 1963 when she was uh when she was um uh had me you know in term um they abducted her again and they uh did the genetic management. That was his words genetic management what that means you know is up to interpretation I guess. Um but the result of it was that it gave me the ability to have this communications.

>> It's amazing. So he's basically saying that mentions 1947 presumably the year of of Roswell and a couple of other famous sightings. Kenneth Arnold >> I have to put a caveat there. Um >> so in in my memories of this it's possible that I assigned that year. >> Okay.

>> It's possible. >> Sure. >> I don't know. I can't remember if he actually said it because I already knew about the 194 I mean everybody knows about the 1947 Roswell thing. So he could have alluded to that and I just assigned that year but he said I'm positive that he said due to our our communication or uh coming in contact with an alien species and he might have said >> 15 years ago he might have said you know a while ago and then I assigned that or he could have said 1947.

I I can't remember exactly. >> Appreciate your honesty and attention. I want I want to make sure that that's kind of out there so that it that it's not pigeonholed that I I had this scientific memory that said that it was definitely that because I don't. >> Yeah. Yeah.

No, no, no. And and and I want everybody in the audience if you're uh 60 years and up to try to remember what happened to you uh you know 35 plus years ago in vivid detail and then you know report back if you know you have any critiques for for this. So uh no no I really appreciate that. So at some point, right, humanity or the US came into contact with these and I think he I believe he does say gray alien beings specifically. Oh, that I think that came the the gray terminology came later.

with alien beings. And in 1960, uh, this project begins where the aliens are given access presumably by the American federal government to genetically >> I would I would say that the the government was given access. Okay. >> Not because the aliens, they had access whether we liked it or not. I would imagine.

I mean, if you if you think about it, because so the the the they did it in concert with the milit or the government, but I don't know who gave access to who. >> I mean, >> so maybe the abductions have been ongoing and all of a sudden the government >> Yeah, exactly. >> is interested in developing these intuitive communicators, which you'll, you know, later become. And uh that involves altering the genetics of fetuses inside the womb of specific mothers, one of whom happened to be your mother. >> Yes.

And they also chose it by demographics too because they um they knew that a certain percentage of offspring would want to go into the military of course so they could they could track that that progression and to keep it tightly controlled because you can't I mean if somebody >> went off to be you know in some job they couldn't control then it it would be useless. So they they tried to demographically and I would imagine many of the underprivileged and you know poor people were the ones that were were um >> or families were the ones that were selected and mine was one of those definitely. >> How are you feeling as he's telling you this? Uh, well, I was I I believe I was fairly numb at at first. Like, you know, you're getting you're getting information that is so unbelievable that you think, okay, this has got to be a joke or this is, you know, this is a one of those ra um hazing things, you know, when you go somewhere and sometimes they haze you because you're the new person or whatever. I mean that did cross my mind but in in general purp in in general terms I was very numb to the situation until at the at the end it started to gel like you know this is not a joke cuz he would have probably revealed it by now and so and I you know I'm in the NSA complex that this is not some office and some base somewhere where they're they could do that type of thing you know and joke with you.

So it it became real very very very quickly. >> What do you say back to him? >> Not a lot. Um I think I tried to ask some questions, but he he he was very um very business-like as far as the the the revealing of information because he wasn't I don't think he knew a lot, you know, to to answer those questions. I think he knew exactly what he needed to do to get his job done just as I [laughter] only was fed the information that I need to get my job done. So that's very common in the in the um classified world is need to know.

You know, if you have a need to know that, then you'll know it. But if you don't have a need to know, then you have no need to know that. >> And he describes the sort of compartmentalization of these programs a little bit more, right, in this conversation. um he went over the onion effect. Um he said that you know you have these different layers that are built in the military and in government in general but definitely military where you have um one layer hiding another layer.

And of course when you're at the official use only and and unclassified aspects of things there's not much of a layer. But when you get to the secret and the top secret and then black and then in our case and in the case of this the gray project. So it one is designed to cover the other and especially when you get up to the black and gray project because when you have a gray project um obviously you need funding, you need the all the logistics that go into running that and you have to have a reason. You have to have a line item. you have to have um justification for manpower and funding and all that.

So you do that because you have a black project that's colllocated with it and only a select few of the people in the black project know about the great project so that they can do their job and administer the great project. But all the funding, all the all the um manpower like you know me going from one base to another, it's all under the oposes of the the black project. So it's why because a lot of people even you know in the UFO community the proverbial thing is like above above top secret which is you know Timothy Good's famous canonical UFO book and you're paying homage to it with black and you're saying that above programs that are by definition black and you know off the books kind of or off the books for the public at least you have these little cutouts >> that involve the alien presence >> which is That's a big claim. And why do you think he would tell you anything about the compartmentalization of it? >> Well, because I was a part of it. I was going to be a part of it.

So, at that time, I was not assigned to any black projects. I mean, I was just like anybody else in the world. I mean, I I knew of the concept of of of stuff that is above top secret. I even read the book probably. I would imagine I did.

Um because I I remember the name of it that you just mentioned. Um, so it it it stands to reason that he would he would try to make me understand that this is just part of that process and you are going to be going to a black project and that would be your cover so to speak for what you're going to be doing with the project destined. >> So he says that your mother in some way was genetically altered uh when she was giving birth the fetus the fetus was. So you were while inside of her uh in the early '60s >> and that was in order for you to become an intuitive communicator who is basically able to receive messages from >> well receive and transmit. >> Receive and transmit.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Communicate basically back and forth. >> And he's telling you all of this. >> Yeah.

He said that that's what my job would be doing or that's what my job would be to do that. Yes. And and then so at that point, you know, are you saying like, why are you telling me this? Is there like a follow-up here? Am I supposed to, you know, [laughter] >> I mean, when you're told this, it's it's you're you're being your your mind is being bombarded with such a a a radical situation that you don't well and and also in the context of being a military too. We have military protocol that, you know, we don't ask a lot of questions in the military. you know, you you're being told what to do and then you do it.

You're actually trained not to ask questions or not to give any type of push back or anything. You just, yeah, yes, sir. Yes, sir. That's what we're going to do. Yes, sir.

Yes, sir. So, in that context, it it doesn't I mean, it may seem like somebody, you know, Joe Blow may seem like, well, if I was told that, I'd be all up in arms. What's going on? But you don't you don't think like that when you're an airman or you know a sergeant. You just think okay this is the mission and we're we're going to go forward. >> Does he say anything about the purpose of project preserve destiny and why intuitive communicators are needed in the first place? >> Yeah he said um he said that uh it was due to some future event and and again he said this is what I've been told.

So it wasn't like >> um he's just a conduit for whatever he's being told. And >> so so there are levels of need to know access and compartmentalization and >> and so he told me that there would be some future event where the ability to intuitively communicate would help the military and help you know command and control and and all that. He didn't get into details on it, but he just said that because I mean the training itself was um centered around communicating stuff like that like logistics and and things like that. So he was setting me up for what type of communications would I be training for? And then he said, "It's for a future thing that we know is going to happen, and you're going to be one of the communicating um aspects of that future event. You'll be allowed or you'll be um relied upon to do that." >> Was it like a cataclysmic event or like you didn't say anything? >> It didn't say anything about the the the nature of it at all.

>> But there was some need to have these intuitive communicators on a goboard basis. >> The future event thing He said in the future and maybe even the event that that word event maybe that was something that I put in there. I I don't actually recall but but that was my impression that there would be some event in the future that that would be needed. >> So what happens next? >> We went to the school. He took me in a van to the school and it could have been me coming back to the facility and then meeting him again.

Don't really remember though. Um, but we we took a van from the facility. It was a a blue marked unmarked van that had uh black windows. It drove to the school that I would be having the instruction at and couldn't see where we were going at all. And that was part of the secrecy of it obviously is I didn't know where the school was.

And um so we went uh got out in a garage or a room of some it wasn't really a I don't know what it was. It was just it was a interior of a cement building. I don't know if it was a garage or part of an annex of a building, but it was just cement all around us and and the blue van parked and we got out and 10 about about 10 20 15 ft in front of the the van um doors that we got out was a a door. It had a palm reader, I believe, and it might have had a retina scanner. I know the interior one had a retina scanner.

Um, we opened the door, went into a vestible bowl. That was the door to the elevator. We got in the elevator after doing the hand scan again. I think it was the opposite hand the next time. And then um went down.

I could feel it was going down obviously. There was only one button in the elevator. That was it. Just start basically. Um the doors opened on the other side of the elevator and we went into a room.

It had two consoles in it, two um computer consoles and a table in the middle. And he told me, you know, the kind of the logistics of the the van would pick me up at my hotel. I would go through Elent school and then um I think they gave me like the half hour, 45 minutes. I can't remember exactly the time, but a short while after I got um back from the elent school, they would pick me up in the the blue van would be right there in front of the in the pickup area of the Holiday Inn and um I would get in the van and he would drive me to the school and I would do exactly what we just did, which is get out of the van, go to the door. I my all my information would be in the scanners and I just go down and go to my console and put on the headphones and sit there and that would be my that would be my task every every time.

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And what are they telling you to do when you're sitting there with with headphones on? >> Well, it the instructor was through the headphones. He just said, "Put on the headphones and you'll you'll be told what to do um when we after you put the headphones on through the headphones." And so, and he told me also there would be some pills that I would take. So, he showed me the pills and he said they'll be right here on the on the table. And he told me also that there would be another student uh in the school at the same time. So, that's why there were two consoles.

And he said, "You're never to speak with each other." Um, not even a grunt. No, nothing. Just you both come to your your your console is going to be this one and that's it. No, no talking. Um, and I did finally see that guy and we came about the same time, never at the exact same time, but around the same time.

And um, never said a word to one another. Took the medicine or he told me about the medicine, where it would be. Um, it was very cut and dry. I mean, there wasn't a lot to it. We just had to get in the van and come here and do exactly what we just did.

>> And so, you basically had no idea where you were going in the van. >> No. >> And you're in this extremely nondescript building. You just see the inside. >> Well, I assume it was a building.

I mean, I don't know if we went down. >> It almost sounds like maybe it's underground. >> Yeah. Well, the I know the school the consoles were I I'm positive that, but well, I guess maybe not positive because we could have gone up >> into a building and then gone down. Who knows? But we did go down, so I assume it's underground.

>> Um, and I don't I I think the building was ground level, too, because I I don't remember going up any, you know, inclines or down or any of that. So, it was ground level, >> meaning that the school was probably underground. the the school itself was under a building that was on ground. >> And I believe also you were talking about the intense secrecy. Uh the captain who you call Captain White in the book who briefed you initially said you're not to speak about this with anybody unless they're involved in Project Preserve Destin.

>> Yeah, that's right. There would he told me there would be a pass off. So, um, or a introduction or I can't remember the the terminology used, but somebody would be he would introduce me to somebody when I needed to do it in the future if I went to another or when I went to another base. So, he was my contact for there and then I would get another contact at another location and whatever location I was at, I would always be introduced by the previous uh contact. So I would never have any need to go up to somebody and say are you or none of that.

I would come to you. Yeah. Yeah. It would always be >> that's like a leare book or something. It's like a spy thriller.

It's [laughter] like you'll be greeted by a man call you at this telephone booth or so so understand. Okay. So this is very close. >> And it was a telephone at one introduction. >> Really? >> Yeah.

>> Like meet at a telephone booth or something? >> No, it was I got a call >> in a public telephone booth. Well, it wasn't public. It was the dorm, the dorm that I was living in. Okay. At at the first base that I went to.

I was living in a dorm and there was a like a a dorm phone. So, in the hallway and so somebody came and and said, um, you have a a phone call. >> So, I fascinating. And so, he told me and that was Captain White. He told me that the name of the next person and that I would meet them at such and such time and he would have his arms folded in front of the facility and that's who it was.

>> That his arms that's >> Yeah. So, I mean, I know that's probably silly, but but he did say that that that he would have his arms for and he was the only person there, so it wasn't like I was going to mistake him for one of the other million people that were involved, >> but maybe that was somewhat of a signal to just confirm that that was the right contact. Okay, so you're back at this initial project preserve destiny school >> and this is in Maryland. It's presumably near the NSA complex where you get briefed >> and you're underground. and you have your headphones on.

What instructions do you get through the headphones? >> Um, so initially um it was a very very rudimentary there were um LED boxes in on the computer screen in front of me and uh they were green and it was like a sine wave. It was like this um like a it's a typical I don't know if people know what a sine wave is but >> sine wave looks like a sideways S. >> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. with with a green line going through the middle.

And so >> I would have 10 of those boxes in front of me on the computer screen. And he said, "For now, initially anyway, he said, "I I just want you I'm going to play a tone and I want you to mentally hum that tone. Don't autoize it. Just mentally do it. Don't have Don't use your vocal cords in any way, shape, or form.

Just mentally hum that that note or that Yeah, that note." And so that's what I did for days, a few a few days at least. >> And and it was uh torture. It was basically torture. Just listening to one tone and mentally humming it. >> How many hours? >> I I can't remember, but it was it was probably a couple days and and each class, you know, was like 3 4 hours in the afternoon, evening, early.

>> That sounds like Chinese water torture. >> It does. >> Excruciating. it. I would definitely ascribe that uh term.

>> Were you allowed to take breaks? >> Uh I did get I did get breaks uh like 10 minutes every hour just like your normal work. >> Okay. >> You know, break type thing >> cuz I think in the book you say you couldn't go to the bathroom during the block. >> I could not go to the bathroom which was a problem sometimes. I I I um I don't think I ever did anything in my pants [laughter] but it was close.

And I also was also very paranoid about going you know before going I would always you know be on the toilet like you know >> oh yeah >> definitely before I went because I definitely did not want to have a problem >> and um I I think that's a young person's game too because now I'd be like no no no I got I gota [laughter] have a b have a break I gota have a bathroom anyway. So, um it was a mentally hummed tone and and then he um he told me to concentrate on the first box while I was doing it. So, I would look for like a he said look for movement in the in the box on the sine wave of the first box. And um so I would I would look at that box and just stare at that box and mentally hum the tone. And he said that um you will eventually um feel a connection between your your mental and your visual.

>> It it you'll feel a connection that um that is >> uh that is uh represented in the box. So the the line will change >> with your your your this thing that you're doing with your mind, which is a mental hum. Um, and so when I I say in the book that it clicked and that that's kind of the only thing that I could really put human language to. It wasn't an audible click or it wasn't like a, you know, physical click, but but it it it's like when you're focusing a camera that, you know, it's really out of focus and you're turning it and turn it and you go, you know, it just focused right on it. >> And that's what it felt like with the visual and the the mental aspect of looking at the box.

When I saw the the the sine wave move, it it is like it came into focus. this thing that that I was doing in my head. And then I I could I could assign that what I just did. I could assign that to what I was doing visually or seeing visually. And I went, "Oh, okay.

Well, I was excited. Of course, I nearly jumped out of my my my seat when I first did it. I I couldn't believe it." Because at this point, I was like really seriously giving up. I was like, "This is this is I [laughter] this is not going to happen." I I And so when it did happen, I was pretty excited. >> Well, you must be thinking too before the clicking happened that this isn't how physics works, right? Like in in your head, you mean you you grow up in the US learning or in anywhere learning that there's some sort of hard separation between mind and matter.

Yeah. And you can hum as much as you want internally to try to match or resonate with some external tone you're hearing. But the idea that that, you know, tone is represented on a screen and you could somehow affect that representation with your mind to most people would be beyond the pale. >> I did I did um for a short period of time think that maybe there was a connection between the headphones, >> okay, >> and and the computer, >> some sort of electromagnetic >> because well because the headphones weren't wireless. They had a wire and it went into the cabinet.

And so, you know, I I did I mean, I gave that a lot of thought like, you know, but that of course was proved wrong later on because I didn't have headphones later on when I was doing the actual communication. So, but yes, you're right. There's a disconnect. There's a there's a mental disconnect there that that's not supposed to be happening that this is not this is not possible to happen. So, yeah, it was definitely interesting.

>> So, when you say it clicked and I realized that's the best way you can sort of describe it. >> Yeah. Do you then sense, oh my god, this sort of, you know, wave that's going, the sine wave, I now have mental control over it. Is that the feeling you get? >> Yeah. Yeah, it it was um well, and it wasn't I couldn't really do anything with it because I didn't really know what to do with it.

Um but I could definitely um affect the the motion and I could do it just at will. like I could at first the the the sign, you know, the sine wave was like this and it would go like this, you know, the the two loes of the sine wave would go like this in harmony with one another. That was the clicking um aspect. And then later on, I mean, the the whole thing would just like this, you know, when you're actually doing doing when you're practicing the the visual and audio um um feedback, you know, that it was giving me, I would I would do the communications or whatever, the the IC aspect of what I was doing, it would it would actually do this with the sine wave. So, at some point, I just didn't even pay attention to the sine wave.

I was just I was just doing the what he was telling me to do. >> I see his intuitive communications and so you're you're you're seeing it almost like ripple or like you know oscillate differently. That's so fascinating. >> Yeah. >> And then Okay.

So you like lock in you have this like connection between you and the sine wave >> and then are do you have a goal? Are you trying to like get the sine wave to do something? >> Yeah. He was just telling me we did the first sine wave and then the he would feed another note and I would have to concentrate on the second sine wave and then the third sine wave and until I got all of them to click and that was the kind of the overriding goal. And then they started to feed me numbers and describing things and what I was interpreting when I was doing the boxes. um it would start to um I I could associate certain concepts and and numbers and and colors and and letters and things like that with the actual boxes and and the different movements of the of the sine waves. So it was intuitive in the sense that because it really was intuitive in that when I went when I started unlocking all these things, it became intuitively aware in my mind how to do that stuff.

So I intuitively knew how to do it. That's how the that's why they they I think they call it intuitive communication because once your mind was unlocked with that ability, it intuitively did that. >> Yeah. intuitively was able to communicate whatever it needed to communicate. >> So you have a bunch of boxes with sine waves in them and then you're somehow associating the movements of the sine waves.

it the the clicking was the only really thing that I was associate I was associating um that was the tool by which we could do the clicking or you know to to unlock that particular tone and that ability to intuitively communicate at that whatever they called I don't even know what they called it at whatever levels those were um to me it was just a note but >> to whoever was teaching me it could have been another attribution you know somehow it was meant something to them, but it didn't mean to me. It was just >> Is the tone that you're listening to changing at all through it? >> Yeah, the the the tones were different uh different notes for each box. >> Okay, got it. >> So, it was 10 notes. I don't know what notes they were, but they were 10 notes.

Um >> and did the sine wave change based on the notes? >> Uh no, it was just the clicking the the sine wave itself would would move based on or that I had 10 boxes. One was one note, one was another note, one was another note, one was another for the clicking aspect. >> And then my mind was picking up on um when when they would feed me information like um a description of something, I would my mind would think in those terms and feed back something. Now, I don't know what that feedback was and how because they were monitoring that on the other side. They were they were trying to see whether it fit whatever it was supposed to fit in those boxes.

It it wasn't my aspect of it was very uh one-sided. I was just there to unlock what was going on in my head and we did that through the clicking. But then the fe the feeding of the the information and stuff was my ability. they were testing my ability as my mind's ability to to convey that in these in this type of language or communication or whatever you want to call it. And so it really didn't come all together until I actually started the communications with the with the the aliens.

It was it was unlocked. I could tell it was unlocked obviously because I was moving boxes and stuff. The box didn't mean anything to me at at some point after I clicked with all of them. But but the communications itself was when I really realized, oh, this is what this is how it works. This is why it's why it is what it is, why we're doing this.

>> So, you have 10 boxes, each of which represent a note, so to speak, >> for the clicking. Yeah. >> You have sine waves within each box. Yeah. And you're trying to lock in or click into each box, and you you end up getting them all.

and sort of interfacing with all of them. >> But once I but once they started feeding me information and I was um I was supposed to intuitively communicate that back into wherever it was going or wherever it was going. Um then I would see boxes just going, you know, just doing all kinds of stuff and but I didn't correlate that with anything. I they were just moving. So presumably and may maybe this is taking a leap here they are uh kind of pattern matching signals that you're emitting by thinking of certain.

So you have a certain semantic thought like a school bus or something and then they get a certain pattern and then they're doing some pattern matching where I >> I think presumably [clears throat] >> I think the the pattern or the um this was just an the the 10 boxes were just a manifestation of what was going on but I don't think they were actually using the boxes. They had their own way but it was just allowing me to see it kind of gave me confidence or or whatever. It was kind of a visual for me. So it's feedback for you that you were that you were locked into the sine waves, but they had something on the back end that's matching >> symbolic concepts that you're thinking of >> in this plane that is being unlocked >> in this plane that's being unlocked. >> Yeah.

>> Fascinating. So like you think of like a car and like they're they have some sort of signals presumably that they're going >> and the intuitive communications. Um, I would I would think like I think now, just like you think, but I would do it in this kind of level of the brain that was was doing what was doing here, that mental humming. Yeah. >> That that unlocked something in my brain that was allowing it to be on that level or playing or whatever you want to call it instead of talking, you know, through the vocal cords and or even thinking.

Yeah, it >> thinking is a level of intuitive or a um >> it's an abstract >> aspect. as an aspect of of the way our minds work, but this was a different um a different uh modality or I'm not exactly sure what word to put it to it, but but and it was unlocked through that that >> well, it almost feels like they were attempting to read a level of your thoughts that exist below symbolic abstract, you know, interpretation >> or above. Yeah. >> Or above. But I Yeah, I would think maybe below like cuz Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I don't know. But like, you know, if you have like language is very kind of high level and and symbolic ultimately >> and you're locking on to these sinewave frequencies. I would assume, you know, if you have in computer science, you have the bit layer and then you have a higher level symbolic languages and then you have like abstract representations of, you know, you have icons on your computer screen ultimately and stuff like that. Um, I would think that language is more like the icons in your computer screens on your computer screens and then there's probably some lower level of thought like some mimetic thing of you know you know thinking of forms and shapes and that sort of thing and this is like another way to transmit that.

Well, the re the way I kind of um thought about it as as the years went on and I you know would think about stuff like this um in Elen we had a carrier wave you know which was the power of the of the transmission but then it was it was um encoded encoded isn't the word but I'll use that encoded that the information is encoded on that power wave >> so the the >> our ability to communicate talk and think. That's a a power wave. And then I I put this the IC ability as a different way to encode information on that power wave. >> And it and but it's still the power that's emanating from our being. You know, we're alive and we have power.

We have we have uh energy emanating from us and we are the carrier wave. But the encoding of information is done through our vocal cords and through our eyes and through our mind. But this was a higher level of encoding >> of that of that energy. >> Interesting. >> That's kind of how I've thought about it over the years.

>> I feel like we're saying the same thing. >> Yeah, probably. [laughter] >> You're told that you uh need to be taking pills every day you're doing this. Y >> it's two pills. Is that right? >> Yeah.

And initially it was two pills in the school. Um, >> what do they taste like? >> Um, they didn't have any taste. >> Did you ask, hey, why do you why do I have to take these pills? >> I did ask and you know, as usual, it was like, well, that's just what we have to do. >> Okay. >> I wasn't told why.

And and it wasn't like it wasn't it wasn't a one forone type of situation, too, because sometimes I would forget to take it. There were there were a few days when I would come back and go, "Oh, man. I didn't take that. I forgot to take those. Um, and I I at later on I was I think it was one pill that I had to take later on and sometimes I'd forget to take that too.

So, it wasn't like it was take pill, couldn't do it. Didn't take pill, couldn't do it. It wasn't like that. I think it was just I think they were just experimenting with it. >> Some sort of maybe intuitive communicator supplement, so to speak.

I I don't know. But >> I mean there presumably parts of the brain that enhance this stuff and ones that yeah hurt it maybe or impede it. Um and then part part of the goal for you was like flattening the sine wave, right? So it was getting the sine wave to >> basically the amplitude to lower into the the sort of center of the box. >> Yeah. And that and that was just um a a concentration exercise I think on the on the actual note because I would I first I clicked it and so that was the clicking and it would move and then um I was um instructed to move it further, you know, to move that note but do it further.

And so that was the feedback I was getting of the visual feedback. I could kind of correlate it with what I was doing in my mind and so I could get a stronger a more focus maybe of that uh note and and I only say note because at some point the note went away and I could just I just did that box >> but um >> so that's like the note was almost priming you for a particular box. >> Yeah. And then I didn't need the note it was just that box was in my mind >> because you had the internal humming going on that note. And again, that was that was only to unlock that that feature or whatever you want to call it because the note went away and even my humming I I didn't that went away too.

I didn't have to do any of that. >> Interesting. Yeah. And once you were locked in with a particular box, you were good. >> Yeah.

Yeah. >> Yeah. And and then I the flattening was an intensity type of situation where you you could and I don't think that had anything to do with the actual communications itself. It just was an exercise. It's like lift weightlifting.

You know, you put more weights on it and put more weights on it until you get stronger and stronger in that box. >> This is so wild though because it implies that the NSA has this whole protocol, this whole like other language that they've developed, which you know, cryptography or whatever. May maybe they have in some sense on the computer science layer, but this is like a human intuitive psychic language that the NSA has prop. But I don't but I don't think the NSA I think they administer it but I don't think they unless you have an alien and an IC person doing it. I don't think none of them can do it or or at least at the time maybe now they do.

I don't I don't know. But um but that that's even crazier, right? Because that's almost implying that aliens coordinated with them to give humans the conventions through which like you could even lock on to this stuff. >> Like like aliens were deeply involved in this program or something. They had to be. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's either that or they have this predig this like insane sort of psychic conventional language that they've created like like the NSA. I mean >> Yeah. >> It's one or the other.

I I don't know if because I think it's a biological thing. So, anything biological would have to I mean, I guess it could be engineered at some point, you know, with the technology that we have today. Sure, >> it could be engineered. >> Neuralink has a patent on psychic communic telepathic communications, but that's like now, right? We're like looking into that. And I I do believe the narrative that things have existed in the black and then they sometimes are exfiltrated or they're like cover private companies that are actually far behind what's in the black.

That's fine. But >> and there's an actual aspect of that in the story, too, but with the white van, but I guess we'll go over that. >> Well, why don't we now? So, [laughter] so you're taken to this facility in this kind of, you know, nondescript blue van and then you see a second >> I saw headlights one time or lights >> lights in the building that were not there typically. And so I was like, what what's going on? So, I looked over to the left and I could see lights um shining on the wall that was in front of the blue van, but over a little bit further to over on the other side of the van. So, I was obviously curious and so I went I didn't want to go into the front of the van cuz it's a driver, you know, I for some reason this driver had this myth mythical monster um imagery in my head because I could never talk to him.

I never knew who it was. So, I didn't want to get in his bad side. So, I went to the back of the van and I looked around and I saw the bumper of a white van. It was a white van on on the other side of the blue van and that's what was had the headlights on. And and as soon as I got back there, he honked his horn.

The blue van honked his horn. I was like, "Okay, never mind. I'm going to my door. Thank you. I don't don't eat me or do whatever you're going to do." And so I I saw that white van and um later on I don't know how much later um days maybe I I was taking an exit to go get to the hotel in Maryland there and um I was turning right and I saw a white van turning left at that exit and as and I thought there's no possible way this could be the same van and but you know it's in the area and you know who knows, right? So I but then I remembered I remembered um actually when I saw the van I remembered it not only then but I remembered it when I saw the van I was like that has a a a dent.

It was an identifying feature and so I looked at it. I looked at the white band that I saw at the exit and sure enough it had that same exact uh dent. So my I was like what do I do? What do I do? Do I do I um I had to follow it. I mean, there's just no possible way. I was too curious.

So, so I I kind of nudged over. I put my sink blinker on and I nudged over to to follow that van. And I went to um a a company called What's up, guys? One of today's sponsors is us, American Alchemy. We just launched what I think is maybe the coolest merch line in the world. when you're wearing it, it's not like you're shilling me or the channel.

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Super relaxed fit. We went for quality on these. Uh, so check them out. and it went to um a a company called Noise Cancellation Technology, NCT. Um that's the name of the company, NCT.

I believe that's they went by the initials. And and I was like, okay, well, there's some sort of interesting little correlation there. More corroboration for Dan Sherman's story exists around this company. He followed this mysterious second van into NCT [music] or Noise cancellation technologies. Noise cancellation technologies incorporated is on record having had multiple contracts with government and military organizations.

In June of 1991, the Washington Post reported that Noise Cancellation Technologies Incorporated in Lynthicum, Maryland [music] won a $210,000 contract from DARPA or the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency for Research and Development. Well, 1991 was exactly when Dan Sherman was getting trained as an intuitive communicator by Project Preserve Destiny. [music] and Lynthica, Maryland is right by where he was stationed getting trained by the NSA. All of this was also a very short drive to Fort me where the government historically has run its psychic spy program. But I'm sure all of these are just coincidences.

Noise cancellation technologies military ties run even deeper. The company is referenced in an Office of Naval Research bulletin about acoustics research in Europe and they've been publicly involved in further NASA and Army funded research. According to the company's [music] own website, NCT is a leading technology company dedicated to the development and commercialization of active wave management applications. The electronic manipulation of sound signal [music] waves to reduce noise, improve signal to noise ratios, and enhance sound quality. All sounds like stuff that could be pretty relevant to what a young Sergeant Dan Sherman was doing for the NSA.

>> Very interesting. >> Yeah, because he was in the same garage. Now, you know, I I don't know what the cor I don't know what the exact correlation is. >> Well, and it makes total sense. You're wearing headphones.

They're doing something with kind of exotic communications. It's not one that you are making up. There's there's corroboration uh of them working with the government in other contexts outside of this possible NSA collaboration. >> Well, and they could be also doing a black project that's covering a great project. So it's I mean there's high likelihood that that's true because I saw I mean I I correlated the two.

So >> yeah and you even talk about you've hypothesized that exotic propulsion might involve noise cancellation in some way. I mean there there are all sorts of things that you know >> electromagnetic energy is it's an amazing uh phenomenon. I agree. It's funny in and around the whole alien UFO space. You get a lot of like Loheed Martin executives like saying weird things like all you need is Maxwell's or Maxwell's equations and you change a thing or two and you're all good.

Like implying that general relativity, Einstein, even you know quantum mechanics in some ways are like way less important than Maxwell which governs all of electromagnetism for things like exotic propulsion. So, >> yep. >> Yeah, it's very powerful. And um yeah, there there are even there are fields of like extended electronamic. I don't know if you've ever heard of extended electronamics.

Is that something that's >> uh it is I I've heard of it. Yeah. >> So, it's this idea that um you know obviously in traditional electromagnetism you have a transverse Herzian wave. So you have you know um a B field an E field an electric field a magnetic field which are perpendicular to one another and then perpendicular um as well as wave propagation and that's like pretty much all you can do right but that limits you like for undersea communications uh you get electrons pairing off because of the presence of magnetic field you know obviously deep space communications are going to be hard it's going to decay at 1 / r 2 >> and this is this idea that actually this Navy whistleblower came out on my show that's described a couple of Hal Putoff has patents in this area in extended electronamics that there are exotic wave types uh in what's called a scalar field uh where wave propagation might occur at 1 / r instead of 1 / r squar so they attenuate way less over long distances in spaceime >> without increasing power >> without what's that without increasing power and so it's just it would unlock all sorts of crazy crazy things if if true. >> Um and and Hal Putoff's this really interesting character in all of this because he obviously ran the CIA's psychic spy program.

And I've asked him point blank, do you think psychic communication is occurring along the lines of this extended electronamics where you have patents? And he's said to me, yeah, I do think that's the case. >> That's fascinating. >> Isn't that fascinating? I find that so interesting. and he's using these Josephson junction uh you know quantum receivers basically to to so it's these um you know vector and scalar potentials in the subquantum field that are doing the communications um so this is absolutely [snorts] mind-blowing um and it makes sense right because like you look at the early Stargate experiments you look at the stuff you know we're going to get into with you they would put remote viewers you know in submarines and put them at the bottom of the And they would have the exact same, you know, all this stuff seems to be agnostic of both space and time. They would get the exact same results and efficacy when it come came to remote viewing.

>> And so it would make sense that you'd have some exotic electromagnetic communication ability that >> Yeah. Yeah. >> That that's mindboggling. >> Okay. So you're you're you're at this school and you're going every day and you're in this van and you've tracked down this other van.

Are you still what ever happened to to electronics intelligence school? The air force continuing education thing that you were supposed to do. >> Well, I had to do that during the day. So, I was doing that for, you know, seven, eight hours and then I would come back to the hotel and have a little break and then I would get picked up again by the van. So, >> did anybody say, "Hey, Dan, you want to, you know, go out tonight, get grab a drink or something?" What would you have to say? >> I was the loner, you know. I was always the one that was, "No, no, I'm good.

I'm in the room. >> I'm a little tired." >> Yeah. Yeah. And I I did get asked um several times they would they would ask me where are you going because you're you're not in your room and your car is here. Where are you going? And I always had some sort of excuse like I met a girl or you know we went out and you know I she drove and that's true of anybody that's in tight these types of things is it doesn't comport with reality with with your real life.

So you have to create this alternative universe sometimes where you have to exist in that universe too with other people. >> And like nobody at at any of my my bases, they they didn't know what was going on either. And I mean I can't remember specific examples, but I'm sure that I had to come up with some BS when something didn't exactly gel with what was supposed to be going on like in the van. Mhm. >> So it that is just the life of somebody who is in that type of situation.

>> And you you were given a code, right, for Project Preserve Destiny, like you had a a code name or something? >> Um, staunch Yeah. staunch 118. >> Staunch 1118. Yeah. >> Okay.

>> And that was that was on the computer screen when I would um open up the dialogue box. I would have to choose staunch 118. >> And so what how long does your schooling last and what happens? >> I think it was 3 months. Okay. >> Yeah, I I believe that.

>> And no no alien direct communication during the schooling. You're just told to flatten these weight. Okay. And so what what happens next? >> I go back to my base um that I was stationed at the time and just went back to my elint job doing stuff. And um then um I'm not exactly sure how long it was, but several months went by and I finally got orders.

um to my first PPD base which was overseas and um and then I went to that that base and I was there for uh again my security clearances weren't there yet so I was kind of in this limbo state um and they finally came and then I got a phone call like we mentioned earlier um somebody knocked on my door and said, "Somebody's wants you on the phone, the dorm phone." It was outdoors, too. It was a It was in a warm climate. >> Mhm. >> And um so there were outdoor hallways and so we uh I would have to go around the around the building and the phone was on the outside there. And so anyway, picked it up and it was Captain White, um my first contact officer, and he said, "You're going to be he told me the name of the my uh next contact, which happened to be my unit commander." Um and which kind of makes sense because I think he was the only captain there in in our vision or in our little area.

And so, um, he told me his name and and and that he'll be crossing his arms and I already knew who he was. I don't know why this was all so clo and dagger because all he would have said had to say was it's your unit commander and you can just go talk to him. Anyway, they did all the crossing arms and stuff. And um, so he told me when to meet him and he'll be out front. And so I went and at that time and did it met him and he took me into the facility.

Um we the facility that I worked it was a a base that was kind of had one mission but we had this like little detachment that was part of the base. It was on base but we had our own little security system fences the whole 9 yards. And cuz it was way more classified than anything going on in the base. And so um it has its own guard check and its own requirements to go through and all that and its own um security systems in the buildings and all. So we went in, he brought me into a conference room and I was there with um another person that was from my base that the other base we just so happened that we got assigned together and we were going through the same indoctrination for our job and all that.

And so he was there too and um and a couple other people too. And so we were being indoctrinated into the into the program into the black project that we were in. And um and then as I recall I think he captain took me aside somebody they they took other people for a tour of the facility and the captain said I'm going to take Dan. And so that's when he brought me into um well, we talked in the conference room first and he told me, you know, we we talked about the the the program and and um just, you know, small talk about the program. You went to school and oh great, you got certified and and you're going to be an communicator.

Isn't that cool? you know, we just had this little banter and and and then he took me into the one of the uh we call them the C vans. They're C is for communication, but you don't have to have a communication in the C van. It's just a C-band. That's what they call them. And so, um we had several C vans on site, and one was our particular part of the Black Project.

And so, he took me in there. It's a twoperson van. For security reasons, there always has to be two people in the van at all times other than a little bit of bathroom break here and there. Um and um he I asked about the the other aspect of my job, the black project. He said, "Don't worry about that.

You'll be other people will talk to you about that. I'm going to talk to you about the gray project." And so he showed me how to open the the screen. And I already knew how to do all this from the the previous time, but he maybe thought I didn't. I don't know. Or he didn't know that it was the same system, but he showed me how to bring up the box, the communications box.

And um just went over the logistics of it, you know, how I would be with this other guy, but we couldn't intermingle as far as, you know, he didn't know about this. And we had what was called left seat and right seat. Seemed like, you know, for pilots, you know, they have the left seat and the right seat. We had that too. The left seat was the different aspect of the black job, black project job.

And mine, the right seat was another aspect of the black project, but then also mine was the gray project. And in my computer, I had that thing that I could open up the dialogue box. And he said, I asked him, you know, when is it going to start? Do I do you know when I'm going to start communicating or you know, he knew nothing. He's like, all I know is this is your box. This is your van.

That's crazy. >> And that's all I know. So >> So you're you're sitting across from a guy who's doing normal classified electronics intelligence. You're sitting next to a guy who's doing traditional conventional electronics intelligence work. >> And I was too, but >> And you were as well, but then you had this other >> Yeah.

>> thing that you're doing around intuitive communication. And that guy has no idea what you're doing. >> No. No. And the guy who's briefing you, who presumably Captain White told you about, uh, he knows very little in some ways.

Like he's giving you Did you >> He's just the administrator. He He doesn't know. >> Did you ever try to kind of cross check? Because I'm sure I'm sure along the way you're trying to sus this project out, you know, throughout. >> Not the time. Not at the time, though.

Okay. No. >> You were just taking orders. >> Yeah. Exactly.

Did you did you ever try? >> And you have to remember also this is before the internet before you know you're just isolated basically. You're intellectually isolated. You're just following orders and that's it. You know, today I could just get on Google and go, you know, do all kinds of research about stuff, but I couldn't back then. Did you ever try to just see if this other, you know, Air Force officer captain who's dealing with PPD at this or Project Preserve Destiny at this overseas base, if his answers coincided with what you were told initially by Captain White to see, you know, could kind of cross check.

>> Well, they were all coincided. They did. >> Yeah. Yeah. Everything was the same.

>> Okay. Yeah. So there it was. It wasn't like cuz Yeah. If I were you, I'd be like, "Well, maybe I am getting hazed." And I'd try to poke and like ask person B the same questions I asked person A and see if their answers were the same.

>> My my intentions were not as devious as that. Fair enough. Unfortunately, >> I just was wideeyed and bushy tailed. That's all. >> Sure.

Sure. >> I was just following orders. >> But from your experience, it the answers were mostly the same. It felt very coherent. >> Yeah, definitely.

Yeah. And they knew very little that it was very easy to be coherent because there was not much to it, you know. >> And this was actually I think you said in the book this guy's name was Sergeant Larson. Is that right? >> No, it was a captain. I think the the Larsson was a sergeant.

He was in the room with us, but he wasn't involved with the >> But I I believe I believe from your book, you asked Sergeant Larson some questions about the secrecy, and he went into the Onion stuff, but he didn't say the gray black. He didn't talk about the great black >> during our during our black introduction. He went into the onion thing. Yeah. which was which which to me is interesting because it was like he was holding back the idea that the gray projects are concealed within the the black projects.

And so he didn't know. >> Okay. Interesting. >> Yeah. He he only went up to the black project because he probably got a at some point a speech about onion the onion aspect but only to the black >> y >> layer so to speak.

>> Cuz in your book you're you're thinking like you know I know something you don't know or something. Yeah. >> Interesting. >> That's true. >> Okay.

So you are sitting at this sort of terminal. Does it look basically the same as you know the NSA complex that you were in? >> I can't remember but they I think they all had about the same >> like the basic >> Yeah. these big sun or spark I think they were spark uh monitors that that we had. Yeah. >> I don't even know the brand.

>> Yeah. It was um back then, you know, monitors were this big and and wide, you know, big and the screen was only about that big. So, when we had these big Spark uh monitors, >> everybody's like, you know, anybody that look at it not not familiar like, "Wow, you you got the Cadillac here. What's going [laughter] on here? What you guys your budget's high?" So, yeah, we had these Spark I think they were called Spark. I think that was the name.

Sun, Spark, something like that. >> And so you put your headphones on, you take the pills, same thing. >> Yep. Um, no, no, no headphones. >> No headphones.

>> Yeah, we didn't have headphones in the in the van. >> Okay. >> Um, uh, but you know, I had a mouse and and the and the monitor and yeah, I took the pills. He he told me that he had a bottle of pills. He said, um, you have to take these.

I said, yeah, we I took those in school, too. And he said I said, two, right? And he goes, no, just one. take one. I was like, "Oh, okay. Well, it was two before, but okay.

So, I'll take one now." >> And we had these little um each compartment had storage units and and we would we would share these seats with other people. I mean, we were the only shift. We were one shift, but then another shift would come in. So, we had our own little cubby, so to speak, for each person, and I would just keep the pills there. >> Okay.

And so, you are in this van. is that's your workstation now and you take the pills and then what are you told to do? >> He didn't tell me to do anything. He said it's just going to come when it comes and and it's going to start when it starts. That's it. That's all the direction I got.

I was like, uh do what um is there any should I expect anything? Is there any timing on this? He says I have no idea. you just I'm I'm here to tell you how to how to facilitate what you're supposed to do and that's it. So, it took a while. It took um I can't remember how long, but it was it was a while later that the first comm came and that's when it the ball started rolling, so to speak. >> And when you say the first comms came, you weren't just getting receiving basically thoughts.

>> Yep. Um, I would receive like a uh I think the first communication was some like prepare prepare for receiving or prepare for something, prepare for communication and that would be the the thing that would kick off like I my attention would go towards that that >> did those thoughts have a different quality from your own thoughts? >> Um, yeah. Yeah, it was it was within a um h it's really really really hard. Um it was an area of my brain and when you think you don't think of an area like you know when let's say you're thinking about you know the the mic stand and you're you don't you can't correlate where that is in your head that you're thinking that I mean you don't know where the synapses are going but with um with the IC communication You can feel it in your brain. You can feel now you can't you can't localize it.

It's not a localization, but I can feel like it's in that area of my brain right there. >> Whoa. >> And it's like a colorful tapestry. And you have you can focus on this over here or you can focus right here. You can focus right here.

You can focus over here. You can but it's it's focused wherever wherever that um tickle comes from. You focus right there. Okay. that's where it's coming from.

And then that stops and you go, "Okay, there's something over here." So I focus on that. And so the when the first communication would come in, I in my mind's eye, so to speak, the tapestry came up and I was like, "Okay, this is where I'm communicating right now. I'm communicating this tapestry." That's the only way I can really vocalize the visualization. >> Do you remember which parts of your brain? >> No. No.

It was I couldn't I couldn't localize it, you know, but I could tell that it's in a certain area. >> Whoa. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So, somehow more of a discrete area than the general >> I felt it. It's more of a feel than it is a scene, but you could feel that it's coming from a certain area. >> Did it feel more foreign than your thought? Like did your do your thoughts feel like yours and these thoughts felt like others? It just yeah it felt like it was external from me kind of when compared to your own thoughts. >> Yeah, >> it wasn't external. It didn't feel didn't really feel external.

It was here I know but but compared to your own thoughts it feels very foreign and very different. >> So what happens next? >> So I started uh getting communications started receiving them. I pop up the the window and I would start typing the whatever I was interpreting it, receiving. And um at first it was just numbers. It was um it was an idea.

Well, I would get a preamble like the one and 18. And this is where I'm really showing my how long ago this was, but it was like that. And then I think there was like a um a fivedigit or six-digit or something like that number after the 118 and I never really knew what that was but was something. I called it a zip code because it looked like a zip code but it wasn't. It wasn't a zip code.

Um and then SL I would do slashes after each um focus, you know, of where in the tapestry I'd go again. And so I put a a slash and then I put the whatever it was and uh it was just numbers initially. >> So you were almost picturing a canvas and like words coming around. >> No no it it wasn't no it I >> like when you say slash how are you you're seeing the slash? >> No no no. um when I would receive a communication and I'm I'm this is me um putting this into words but it's not necessarily exactly this but >> this is the best way I can convey it.

>> There's this area in my brain or in my thoughts and it's like a tapestry that has a lot of depth and it has it can be very colorful. I think that's just my interpretation of of what's going on. I think the colors would be different for other people, but it's just it has color to it. And so I would see in my mind's eye, I would see that there's a communication right in this area of that overall tapestry, so to speak. And then I would look at that.

I mean, I would concentrate on it. I would focus on that. And that would be a communication. And it would be it could be an image. It could be a number.

It could be a feeling, a smell. It could be anything. It could be whatever we can convey in communication like I could I could um make a smell here and I can communicate that to you. Well, that that smell would be communicated to you and I could do that in that too. I could I could actually um although I don't think I ever did, but I think I could actually get a smell through that.

I could get any type of communication through it. So I would look at that, focus on that and then I would convey that and then I would put a slash and then another area would come into focus and I would focus on that and then put that communication down. Put a slash and then another area would come up and I would put a slash. So I would get these different communications through these different focuses to speak. >> And when you say put a slash are you on the computer on the you're typing type the computer.

>> So you think and then you type I would receive. Yeah. Yeah. And and type it whatever it was that was in that little area of the communication. >> Okay.

>> And then I put a slash when that was over or done or went on to another one. So they they were they were um concepts that were in different bites, so to speak. >> So as soon as you comprehended a particular concept, you would put a slash and then you'd get another communication. But I would I would see it not not visually, but I would know that it was there. I could feel it in another area and I would concentrate on that and I could get that.

>> Did you? >> And were you thinking in words or were you thinking in content when you were receiving? >> Yeah. I would have to because we're humans so we >> you'd have to translate it immediately. Yeah. >> Exactly. Well, it it wasn't so much a translation as >> like would it come through? It would come through in that it would come through in that whatever it was that I was >> um uh reporting.

>> Yeah. >> Um like in that area I would see the numbers. I would see 4 5 7 8 2 and I would type that and then later on when I started getting visual stuff I would see like a little like one time I I saw um a missile um uh being launched and or not it wasn't a missile it was a rocket rocket >> and um I could see around the payload area I could see the seams and a and a like it had blown blown up. I could actually see that in my in that tapestry, so to speak. And so I would I would describe that.

I mean, like rocket blowing up and I mean, you could get into a a higher or a lower level of detail depending on how much time you had to type and but and and the visual wasn't there for long either. It would just come and I would see it and then it would it would fade out. Did you try to correlate the thoughts or messages you were receiving with real events? So, like that rocket blowing up, did you hook up? You know, I mean, that's hard to do. You don't have the internet. But >> I I did um um there was a it was in the news.

I think there was a um a Chinese launch of a of a rocket that had blown up. I don't remember whether I correlated it with that or not, but I I remember looking that up and seeing that, but I don't remember if it was the same one that I >> that you received. Yeah. >> Because in your book you say like Arianne like you know certain company launches you felt like you were tapping into the actual rockets launching which is fascinating like >> Well, I think it was just um whoever's got their fingers on the pulse of whatever is going on here. I think it was their um way of testing my ability to convey different types of messages, you know, different different um genre, so to speak.

>> Yeah. >> And and it could have been, you know, they were testing my ability to describe what was going on in a in a military type of functioning or the, you know, mechanical and and all the stuff that went along what I saw, you know. Did I describe was it white or would I describe the length of it or what would I actually describe when given that message and so kind of testing and I'm sure everybody else who was doing a the was an IC in the system was getting the same types of things so that they can see who is better at what or this is what I was thinking later on when I thought about this is that it could have been like a who testing who is able to do what? >> At what point do you start speaking with aliens? >> Um, that was it. That was during that time. That was a coming from an alien.

>> And and does that alien reveal itself as having a personality? >> Um, yeah. the the first one he was I sensed a very logical structure and and um I look back on it now I don't think I really um kind of I didn't put it in the best words back when I wrote the book but I but I look on it now and I think it was the um I did say in the book that I think I said that he was very logical it was very um more structured. The communication was a little bit more structured and it wasn't as you know that tapestry that I tal about. It wasn't as um his wasn't as um >> um abstract or Yeah, it was much more >> I I wish I had more experiences of more aliens so I could see the differences because >> I only saw two and the and Spock the first one he was um his tapestry and again I just say tapestry because I don't know how to explain it but um his fog, so to speak, or whatever, was very um very linear. It was >> uh in my mind's eye, it was very straight like this.

His communications were in a straight line. >> Like the the one area would have one piece of communication and then it would be right here and then it' be right here and it'd be right here and then it' be right here and right. So it was very straight. And >> does he introduce himself or you call him Smog? >> No. Okay.

So, I guess I have to explain that. Uh um the reason why I No, I I never got a name from him or anything like that, but his communications were very logical. And so, my friend and I were we were Star Trek fans, and I just thought it was funny just to to refer to him as Spock and and and I wasn't referring to him to anybody else. So, the joke was lost on on the world until I wrote my book. But >> did you address him directly when you're sending messages back? Did you address him as Spock or >> No, no, no, no.

I I never No, I never said that. Um I I don't even know if he would know who Spock was. So, >> we don't know either, do we? Maybe we don't even know it's a he >> Well, I think there >> I guess no, but but I did sense that it was a male male energy. And um >> what is Spock saying to you? >> Well, it was all very very um number oriented. It wasn't until I got to my second base that I started getting the imagery type stuff.

Um but the first was very uh Spock. Well, okay. So, at the end of my time at first, the first base um I was doing a communication. and I was receiving something and the only reason that I would communicate back to him is like, "Can you repeat that or can you say that again or do that again?" Um, I there was no real back and forth, but I went into, and this is the hardest thing to explain, I think. Um, and I say plain, but it was um I wanted to ask him a question.

So I was really hesitant to do that. I wanted to start asking questions and I was I was trying to get up the the courage to break from the formality of our communications so that I could ask a question and I really didn't know how to do that intuitively. I didn't know I didn't know um what the protocol would be for that. I was receiving stuff and I could actually convey messages back as far as feedback and stuff, but I didn't know what the the the formality would be to have an informal conversation or or to ask something that had nothing to do with our communication. Mhm.

>> So I I think it was because I was so um anxious or um uh charged about it that I I asked him a question, but then it w it it was the weirdest thing because it went into another I I say plain, but I can't really explain. It was a different it was a different tapestry. Let's just say that way. You know, the the tapestry that I keep on alluding to. It was a like a um you know how I said you can focus further away and then closer you know like the lens that I told you about the camera.

>> Yeah. >> Um >> this one was like a like a macro like it came came closer to me and it was and it was different. It was different than the the um tapestry that I keep talking about. Anyway, so I asked him a question in this plane and I didn't and it shocked me when I did that it because when I asked the question I was just asking it in the other realm so to speak but when I did that it came up closer again closer isn't a proximity but it was just my my way of explaining the visual of it in my head. Um and and so I asked the question and then I also shocked myself cuz I was like that's a different I I said that differently.

It went out differently. >> Yeah. >> And then he I sensed he was also shocked like I didn't realize that you could do that. >> [laughter] >> I can't remember his the exact communication, but um and so I I asked questions and honestly I can't remember a lot of the questions I asked. I I I'm >> What was the So you have this different plane of communication initially when you're communicating with Spock.

He's just giving you like strings of number like things that don't mean much to you or >> Yeah. Well, I mean none of it Well, until we got to the imagery part, it none of it really meant anything to me. Um, >> so it was like you were just relaying this information to just a conduit >> the NSA >> and but you didn't really know what you were relaying. >> Yeah, exactly. But then when I asked these that I asked a question and and again I can't remember the name what the question was but um he he seemed shocked and I I said am I allowed to speak like this in this realm or I can't remember how how I said it but like at this level and and he said yeah it's it's fine and we just didn't realize that you could and I'm paraphrasing of course my thoughts but we just didn't realize that you could do that.

And I was like, "Oh, okay. So, is this okay?" And he goes, "Yeah, it's fine." But um but he didn't want to but again, he didn't want to chat, though. I mean, it wasn't a I don't think it was it was in the purview of the the program to chat with these people. It was or these humans, you know, it was just the the testing that was going on. But I was able to ask, you know, the questions I wrote in the book that, you know, I had some questions and overall overall impressions of what I got from those questions.

>> What are what are some of those questions that you ask? >> Well, like the like the um how do they get here? How do they travel? And about time because I've always been interested in time. >> Yeah. >> I asked him about going back and forward in time and he said you can't really go back and forward in time because time is a relative thing. So you don't know if if you're going back then what are you coming back from? There's there's no there's no solid moment in time that you can measure from to go back and forward from. So but he said you can go around time and I didn't really understand when he was telling me that I was not understanding what he was saying by saying that.

I mean, there wasn't any um it wasn't a thesis written out so that I can analyze it. He just gave me the impression that you can go around time. And I think that's how they do their travel, too, is is they they use time, but in in a way that we really can't we don't really understand. >> Could be like in a higher dimensional space or something. I mean this is all you know total speculation but like maybe you know you think about the fourth dimension of time >> or time as humans know it and it is this linear you know permanently progressing thing you get in the river you know that's the kind of metaphor you know and and you you can't get out you know but if you had a higher dimensional you know temporal dimension or something you might be able to you know jump in and out or so like think about actually like a like a tesseract you you know, and the tesseract is is is is uh curling around or whatever.

It's like kind of like a sine wave or like a snake or something. Um, and you think of that as, you know, 3D 3D uh uh you know, inside of it or whatever. So, you have like north, south, east, west, above sea level, below sea level. So, you have three degrees of motion. And um you know if you were to you could hop from this part of the coil to this part of the coil or whatever and that would be actually like a very short distance if you had some higher abstraction of time.

>> Yeah. >> But it wouldn't if that was all you had. Right. >> And that's where the wormholes come in where you come from one one aspect of the temporal to the next aspect of the temporal so you can travel between the two. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. It's I I didn't really I didn't understand it and I just kind of it it was my understanding of my rudimentary level of communication, you know, of knowing knowledge and in time and all that. That's where I I distilled it to that. He said around time, but he could have meant something different too. I don't know.

>> Well, John Wheeler, the famous Princeton physicist, thought that there might be Wheeler tunnels everywhere, which are basically little wormholes or black holes. Nobody knows what happens beyond the event horizon of the black hole. And so, and then obviously time and gravity have this really important connection and you get these super dense, you know, formations like black holes, time moves slower. And so you you know, theoretically Yeah. >> Yeah.

It's it's it it definitely was fascinating and just the little bit that I did get from him, it blew my mind. Um and he also um mentioned uh we talked about uh the sun. He said that I I I in particular remember this one because he um he was so um very it's almost as if they respected our son >> um more than you would think that and you know we take the sun for granted. it's just the sun, you know, that that's where we get sunlight and energy and and it's no big deal. >> But he he kind of I felt it was more of a reverence uh um feeling towards the sun because he was talking about how we really don't understand the the value of our son >> and that we will at some point eventually understand it.

>> It's funny. I um had an off record conversation, so I won't say who it was with, but with somebody who I think is knowledgeable around UFO reverse engineering programs. >> And he made this analogy of the sun being some sort of like portal to other star systems. >> And I don't know, you think about the history of the sun is so interesting. You have Ankottton, you know, the the sun god.

And even if you read Isaac Azimov wrote a book called the kingdom of the sun where it talks about the changing conception of humanity's understanding of the sun and you read about you know capernicus who you know theorized the heliocentric universe and he had this very mystical conception of the sun that went well beyond just him thinking it was some you know lynch pin or whatever necessaril necessary for you know uh uh planetary orbits or whatever. >> Um so I don't know. Yeah, it's it's um and we are, you know, we are discovering more and more about the sun and we sending probes and and all that and it's still a very wide open discovery platform I think for science. >> Definitely. And yeah, I think you write in your book that Spock even said that your scientists are just now figuring out how the sun generates energy.

And you know you have obviously cartesev scales which kind of measure you know how advanced a civilization is and you know level two would be basically creating a Dyson sphere which is harnessing the energy of the sun. So maybe >> not in our lifetime but >> maybe not in our lifetime [laughter] but I mean the sun is a fusion generator and you know there are nuclear fusion startups now which is you know controlled fusion is this holy grail of energy generation. So >> absolutely. So anyway, that those are those were the kind of the highlights. Um it it it wasn't a treasure trove of information and I wish it was because it would make the book a lot more interesting, that's for sure.

But it was um these are just kind of the impressions that I got and it was a it was a a fascinating experience. I can't really emphasize enough that it is something that our world is slowly coming to terms with. I've actually been asked just recently to um be part of a um congressional, you know, testimony and all that stuff. And there's a there's a certain project that's out they they've labeled it project disclosure or something like that. Uh-huh.

>> We're slowly >> slowly getting to that point where the government is going to have to say something or give some some little tidbit of information to the world because >> you would think the the pressure is just so high. >> You just can't explain it away through campfire stories anymore. Uh, I just want to get back to the core details of the Spock thing. So, did did are you seeing a gray alien in your mind's eye? Okay. No, >> I never saw any visualization of of their what they look like.

>> So just just you having semantic concepts kind of come into your your mind. >> Yeah. >> Tapestry. I have the same stereotypical view of an alien that everybody else has. I don't have any.

Um although when I see an alien like um you know a a fictional character or whatever, I always um I always put I overlay my communications onto that so that it it becomes a little bit more um important or not important but uh it has a different aspect to it when I look at an alien as opposed to somebody else looks at an 89. >> Yeah, I know. I imagine has a very different connotation like I know something like that is probably real. >> Yeah. >> Um >> did did you have any sort of feeling towards Spock? Did you develop a liking to him or were you like you know this is some foreign weird thing that I'm Yeah.

>> No it well I think it largely has to do with the fact that we never really became intimate as far as our conversations. So you kind of >> it it it might as well have just been the the computer at the school as far as I was concerned other than >> um the the the the colorful um not colorful the the detail of the of what I was communicating through know my tapestry so to speak. Um that was different. I mean that was all new to me. M >> it I was able to tap into it easily because of my training, >> but the training never I never saw that that um venue of communication >> until I actually got the communications from the aliens.

Until then, it was very it was very um um it was very clean. It was um what's it? What's the word? U san it was sanitized. Sanitized. Yeah. It was very uh clean.

>> It's almost like you were like a human antenna or something or a conduit or Yeah. >> Yeah. I I kind of um look at it as like a it was chromatic. >> That type of communication was chromatic whereas this was very organic and very colorful and very um um clear. You know, there was a lot of clarity to it.

Was there anything special about the base where you were like maybe I'm being asked to do this project preserve destiny and communicate with aliens because this base is located in a particular place that's unique or has some equipment that might be >> good for alien communications or >> well um the project that I worked on I mean other than um project preserve destiny the black project was a very interesting into itself. I mean, that that would be that would be a a podcast that anybody would love to hear because it was just so interesting. Um, >> and it had to do with electromagnetic stuff, but um >> interesting. >> Uh, it was I don't I don't know if there would be any correlation between the two. >> I mean, other than just being the cover for it.

Yeah, because I I think I don't know there there guys that come up in UFO lore like Robert Sarbacher and he was actually I just we were talking about Whitley Strieber before this started rolling and >> he was looking into Whitley Strieber. They were about to meet the day he died but he was this guy Sarbacher ran R&D under Vanavar Bush like he was basically Vanavar Bush's heir. He ran the whole Washington you know uh national labs. He was like an atomic energy kind of godfather in the United States. >> And he in 1987 towards the end of his life started to come out and write letters to UFO researchers like this guy William Steinman and say you know um the UFO rumors are substantially true.

Vanavar Bush was involved in this project as was John von Noman and all these things and he wrote a book called ultra high frequency engineering. I I wonder if his vector in the whole UFO thing was some sort of communication modality with the aliens that was maybe >> what was the >> on that side of the electromagnetic spectrum. >> What was the content of the book? What what did it what did it talk about? >> You know, it's Chinese to me. It's like extremely esoteric. >> It talked about radio though as far as waves, electromagnetic energy.

Is that what it was? >> Yeah. I don't know what what what exact spectrum, but I I I >> No, I don't mean the spectrum. I just mean in general. about about electromagnetic energy. >> Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

>> Well, and but was it was it about um the government's involvement with it or just >> No, it was just a general sort of textbook on it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Interesting.

>> I don't know. >> Did you at any point think that maybe this wasn't an alien on the other end of the communication? And you were just being told that because I do think this is the what makes this whole topic so tricky is that in certain cases the reverse dynamic of what you just of what we've been talking about this entire time. Sometimes you're not tagging a gray project with a black project, but you're tagging a black project with a gray fake gray thing to catch spies. You know, it's this classic intelligence move. Say you had some like anti-gravity vehicle or whatever.

You'd call it alien and then you'd write a bunch of fake documents that you know talk about aliens or whatever and then it would like you it'd be like putting like a die into a pipe and you'd see the communication trail >> and you'd catch Soviet spies or you know you do also throw people off the trail or whatever. Maybe you'd initiate recruits cuz it would be sort of a puzzle for them to figure out. So it like serve all these purposes to actually call black stuff alien. So did you ever think maybe I was actually I'm actually just communicating with you know in a way that breaks physics which is fascinating or the physics as we know it but humans through more mind matter parasychological means now we have like the telepathy tapes one of the most popular podcasts in the US uh earlier this year you're probably familiar >> I I heard the name yeah >> talks about these like uh non-verbal often autistic children uh who you know, can telepathically communicate and commune on this sort of hill. It's absolutely fascinating.

They sort of send each other images um at really high accuracy rates. And so, did you ever think maybe you were part of a human parasychology program and they were tagging it with the alien thing? >> Um, I gave that some thought. Um, especially when I was writing the book, I I wanted to kind of flesh out my my thoughts on on um how it how it was um how it would be interpreted in to the public, you know, and and what people would ascribe to my experience and how they would uh try to block or try to get it off it and go into other other areas. And so I did think of that and I I guess it's possible, you know, it's it's not impossible obviously cuz I never saw an alien. I never even visually I never saw an alien and never got any indicator as to what um they were human or not.

Um but I I can say that the the way the communications happened unless um unless we've we've somehow gained the ability to do that in some way the the style of communication was very foreign to how our minds think. Yeah. So maybe on this plane even if you have two humans that is kind of the standard by which you would communicate in that in that way even between two humans but I I got this distinct um impression that it was not human. >> Yeah. But you're also talking about strings of numbers and like like it does feel foreign.

The the way it's being communicated doesn't feel like it's interesting. I mean there are non-verbal tribes, indigenous tribes that talk about the ancient language where they are able to kind of communicate telepathically with each other and there are people with mind melds going on you know like couples over long periods of time and that sort of thing twins I mean there are the classic example um >> and so this felt like a different variety >> yeah but the communications I would think anyway the communications in that way would still be human type of communications cuz we think in a >> that's what I'm saying. This felt qualitatively different as far as what was coming in. >> Yeah. And I and I can't and I can't really um attribute it to or can't compare it to anything else that that I could vocalize to you.

It's just completely different. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean there are theoretical way like have you heard of bone induction? Do you know what that is? Well, I've seen those speakers, you know, that you can put around your your neck or whatever, and they had the bone induction.

Exactly. You can hear sound. >> Classic example is Beethoven was deaf and so like he would uh actually uh bite onto a conductive rod that was connected with his piano and he would play notes and then he would hear it because it would bypass his ear canal. Mhm. >> And so there are ways to communicate semantic information that bypass the traditional kind of auditory track.

And actually the director of the NSA while you were in your program was this guy Bobby Rayman who's on a record talking about UFOs with this UFO researcher named Bob Oxler. I don't know if you know about this on a phone call. Do do you uh anticipate that any of the recovered vehicles would ever be uh become available for uh technological research outside of the uh military circles? >> Again, I honestly don't know. >> Uh 10 years ago, the answer would have been no. >> Yeah.

>> Whether as time has evolved, they're beginning to become more open on it is a possibility. He he then goes on to, you know, work at SIC. It's this, you know, big military contractor that, you know, made tons of money during Star Wars and, you know, strategic defense initiative. And then they got into psych psychotronic research and psychotronic weaponry and stuff. And so it's always this question for me is like what came first? Is it the alien stuff or is it the weird MK Ultra like kind of, you know, like embedded implant sort of, you know, communication stuff? >> And I, you know, it's funny.

I I I definitely don't shake out that old human technology explains all of this stuff. Like I I think your story is like a great example of that, but it's such an interesting history. >> Yeah. So I don't I I just back to your original question. I think that um I'm pretty convinced it was alien.

Yeah. >> But there's no way that I could prove it in court. So >> yeah. Well, no, that's an intellectually honest uh, you know, readout and I I appreciate that and you know, it's I think it's extremely fascinating either way, but I >> that's true. I mean, even if it were two humans, it would still be fascinating.

>> Still breaking paradigm physics and and also a totally, you know, new area for the NSA nobody thinks they're involved with, but I uh I, you know, after reading your book, going through all your stuff, watching all your interviews, I I also think it's genuinely alien. But um, okay. So, uh, that was the first base. Uh, you take a sip of water. We can Yeah, >> we can do it on camera, too.

>> Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, we can always Yeah. be Yeah. >> At least we don't have the cigars like >> Rogan.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Are you a fan of his? >> Yeah. Yeah.

He's he's um interesting. I've been a fan of his as a comedian, too. I mean, he his comedy is >> epic. >> Yeah. He's he's amazing.

I think he's so cool. I think he's such a good good guy and he's so genuinely curious and all this stuff. >> Yeah. Oh yeah, definitely. He's a curious mind.

I love that. I love when people are curious. >> Yes. >> And not um semantic and wrote and you know just within your own box and not want to look out >> at other things. That's good.

>> I think it's fear. It's like in you if you can't integrate something with your worldview, you have this like immune reaction to it. You just you don't want to look at it. >> Well, we're going through that. >> Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure you sometimes get that. It's funny like sometimes I'm like, "Yeah, I run a podcast on UFOs." And people like, "Oh, cool." And they like move on. We start talking about the weather or something.

I'm sure usually like maybe you occasionally tell people, "Yeah, I was, you know, recruited by the NSA to decode alien signals." Oh, cool. Yeah. Well, um, what are you doing after this? Like, do you ever get that reaction? >> Oh, definitely. >> Where it's like not even like they're not even capable of like holding it in their worldview. I I um but I have the opposite effect really in that I mean for me anyway I don't really want to talk about it.

So because because it makes people uncomfortable. >> I believe that. >> So it's like I'll say well once I get to know somebody I won't say it initially but you know if they start we get to know each other um I'll say yeah and I I um I don't know if you know but I wrote a book and and they'll go oh really what is it? You know and I'll say I'll say the name of it. I say, "It's on Amazon. You can, you know, above black search for it." And >> and um >> and then I wait for them >> to come back.

>> Yeah. To come back. And if they just never mention it again, I'm like, "Cool, >> I'm good." >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> But, you know, if they have a genuine c curiosity, then I'm open to that, too. >> No, it's a great filtering process. >> Yeah. It's because just saying it to people and springing it on them. Yeah.

I communicated with aliens. Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. >> Time was it? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I get and it's like you you also I mean are refreshingly nonhistrionic in your personality like it I don't doesn't feel like you have some like you know desire for attention. you have the you have the certain segment and I'm sure you're familiar with it of this of this world >> that is very I mean I went to um >> conferences when I when I first released a book I would be invited to all kinds of conferences UFO conferences and alien conferences and and holy moly the people that I would >> interface with I mean it was >> often it's extreme narcissism too it's like this solopscistic like I I am a star seed.

I was sent here from Arctus and I am going to enlighten everybody. And it's like come on. Like >> do you really really you're the messiah? Like [laughter] it's just cra it's crazy. >> I one conference I went to one time um had a bunch of like uh I don't know alternative stuff going on and um experiences and things. And one guy had the stigmata.

>> You know you're you're familiar with that? Oh yeah, >> that stuff. >> And he had an open wound like right in the middle of his forehead like an bleeding. >> Uhhuh. >> And he would uncover it because we were at a convention of things that you know people came here to see. So he would uncover it for people.

But he usually kept it covered. >> I didn't even know what to do. >> He did that to himself. There's no way. I I'm I'm and then I think you know I story my story is in amongst all this.

I'm like chance do I have? I mean [laughter] yeah yeah [laughter] alien. >> Guy. Well, I think the stigmata guy, you know, is trying to compete against people like you who are just like, I don't remember fully what happened, but this is what I think happened. And, you know, uh, but I, you know, the core details are very verifiable. And, uh, >> well, it's it's kind of why I kind of left the scene >> because I really, I mean, my story is my story.

You read in the book and >> that's it. I mean, I'm not I'm not trying to, you know, become a star. I'm not trying to get be become a celebrity at this. I I just put out my story for people to gel with whatever their stories are. And it's a piece of the puzzle >> and that's all I'm good for.

I mean, I don't need to >> just let me hide over here in the corner somewhere. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And I get, you know, I get I get pinged on Twitter all the time and and and it's I I don't know what to say. I'm like, can I call you? I'm like, oh, >> really? Can can you ask my question? I ask question via text cuz I've talked to >> dozens of people and it's just >> I wrote it in the book.

I mean I I don't what else do you need to know? So the the I love this this format here because we can talk about other things like stigmata and things like that and put kind of put color to it and but for the most part I just don't need to talk about this anymore because there's plenty of other people talking about it. It's in the book. And >> well, I'm honored you said yes to me. Why did you say yes to me? >> Well, um, you have a good charm over text. Very, very, very good charm.

And now in person, the same. So, that's good. Um, I just I wanted it to be I wanted to be a >> a clearing house, so to speak, for whatever I have to say vocally to people. >> Yeah. >> About the book.

We're probably, I would assume, going to cover pretty much the entire thing. >> Yes. >> And and so it's out there and at my age, you know, I want to get it at the point where I'm still, you know, smiling and and thinking clearly and all that stuff. >> Um >> and and then I just want to let it let it go into the ether and and >> it's well researched, well documented, well talked, you know, and it doesn't really need to be >> um beaten. like a dead horse.

>> Well, I'm honored you said yes and I I do think we're going to package something in a way that you know, right now it's uh it is these really structured we were talking about this earlier like kind of you know baby boomer kind of legacy media like so this happened and then this happened and then this happened. [clears throat] >> Well, and it's a question and answer. Um >> yeah, >> all the the the interviews that I've had up to this point were not podcasted before podcasts were even a thing. So it was very my last one was in Florida and it was it was a very nice very nice crew just like your crew very nice people but but it was very structured it was very question and then answer question and answer and >> and it was very heavily edited you know for time and all that so I just came across as very um >> you you couldn't see well that begets skepticism now like when you see the like the even the late night talk shows or like the you know the the prime time broadcasts or whatever and it's this like >> very like done up you know manicured like like you know set thing where it's like the producers were in touch with the guests prior clearly >> we're going to go over this >> go over all these things like it's funny you should ask that well I was on vacation with my family or whatever it's like what do you that's so weird and then you have honestly Rogan's the biggest innovator in >> OG him and like Mark Maron and stuff where it's just was fully just off the cuff and you get a sense for you're this voyer looking into a conversation that's happening super organically and naturally and you can sus out what's you know real and what's fake and >> yeah personalities have a lot to do with people's um um authenticity >> yes totally well I'm you know I'm I'm I'm happy because I I watched all your interviews and I was like this guy seems very sane and you seem even more sane in Wait to see my stigmata. [laughter] >> Exactly.

Well, you know, something funny. You were saying that, you know, this guy who's probably crazy and might be a hemophiliac if his wound was open this entire conference. Uh was uh you know, saying that that he, you know, had a stigmata. Uh you know, one of the first guys to receive uh stigmata was St. Francis of Aisi post Jesus.

This is I think 13th century Italy on Mount Lever. And there's this religious studies professor named name named Diana Pulka and she basically says if you look at the original translation of what happened to St. Francis, it was probably just an interaction with a UFO and he it received sort of electromagnetic, you know, damage. >> Look at you bringing stigmata back to my story. That's what I'm saying.

What a host. [laughter] >> Yeah. You know, we do what we can. >> That's awesome. >> Yeah.

Okay, so we're midway through the story. So, we talked about Project Preserve Destiny base one, which was overseas somewhere. >> There was a second base. Is that right? >> So, you you leave base one. Are you just like back into your normal Air Force electronics intelligence job or what do you do? >> Yeah.

All of it's under the oposis of that. Okay. Um and then I get I get orders. That base is actually I I close that base down. um the base itself closed, the entire base, not just our aspect of it.

>> Okay. >> So, um I went to my next base and um same thing. Got you know read in as far as security clearances and for that place it took like I don't know 30 days for my security clearances to come in. So, I had no job. It was like I was just free to do whatever I wanted to do.

Yeah. Just hanging out. >> Actually, funny story. I you're supposed to stay within the area, you know, because if they call you, you have to get there when they tell you to get there. >> And I took a chance and I drove >> just about to say the state, but I um I drove to a friend's house.

It was about a uh 4 hour drive, something like that. Four or five hour. And they called me when I got there. They called me in and said, "You need to be here at 8:00 in the morning." And I was like, "Oh my gosh, I got to get back." And it was a blizzard. There was a blizzard the entire way home.

And I almost didn't make it back because of the blizzard. And so, um, the the moral of that story is do what they tell you to do and stay in the local area when you have a 30-day, >> uh, hiatus. Anyway, yes, I so my clearances got um was finally there and I got um for that one. I went into my job and I was working my regular job and the introduction happened by the previous captain actually showing up at my job in on the floor where I was working and I was like, "Oh, hey C. What's what's up? I didn't even know you were in the States.

I I I didn't know where he went from from where we were before. And so, you know, we kind of had a nice friendly back and forth. And >> so, this is the guy you pseudonymously named Captain White or >> uh yeah, whoever was the captain at I I can't remember the names now, but the the captain at the birth base >> at the Yeah. Okay. >> It was my former contact.

He was he was relaying to me my next contact who was a captain and at station at that base and um and so they were together and so I got a a an inerson interaction this time as opposed to over the phone or whatever and then he took me over to the computer screen and I had already I had already looked it up. I'd already done the thing and I saw that it was there. So, he didn't really even have to tell me. But, um, but I knew who my contact was now. So, that was the most important thing.

>> And same thing, you go to this sort of workstation terminal. Is it in a van this time as well or? >> This was in a big room, big air conditioned room. It was um uh this was the previous base was very small. We had like 25, 50 people, something like that in our detachment. very everybody knew one another.

It was very small knit or close-knit. Um but the next base it was a very big base, very big uh detachment. Um uh we had a multi-service, Air Force, Navy, Marines, everybody was there in the same building. Um and so it was a big room. Uh but I wasn't as close to the people around me either.

So I had a little bit more space to do my thing. Um, so nobody was hovering over me or right next to me or whatever. And, uh, that took a couple maybe a couple months before I started receiving uh, maybe not that long after I got briefed or into, you know, my security clearances and I started doing my job. Um, I started receive communications again, prepare for communications, like, "Oh, okay. Well, here we go.

I'm at work. Let's go." and [clears throat] started to um translate those and same thing you know just >> same variety as the f as >> well no actually the communication has changed themselves but I'm just saying the the whole process I every once in a while I just get a communication just like I did at the previous space >> and you're just sitting at your workstation monitor yeah sometimes I was in the bathroom I mean I could be anywhere in the building >> you'd receive communications wherever >> yeah it but I was always in the building. So, >> you'd always be in the building and then you'd go to the workstation and >> yeah, they they >> type it. >> Whoever was overseeing this whole thing, they knew where I was kind of locationwise. I was at work, so they knew my shift.

>> So, once you received some sort of message, you'd go to the the monitor and you'd type in slash and you'd type in whatever messages you receive and >> 118 then the five digit code. But the rest of the communication there was a lot of a lot of this one this marked a time when I became much more um it became much more detailed. The communications were much more detailed. >> How so? What were they like? >> Very like pictures, images. Yeah, these communications they were they were much more uh colorful.

Um, I think uh also you could get a an emo kind of a a sense of an emotion with the images. So it wasn't uh you know like when you watch a movie and you see somebody crying or you see you can get emotion through visual and not just auditory not you know seeing I mean um hearing um but you know like words and stuff but you can see and these and these images that I saw they didn't have words to them I saw images but no words but I I felt emotion I could feel emotion with the image um not necessarily all the time, but if it meant to have emotion, then I could feel emotion. Um, now whether that was conveyed with the message or whether I had emotion looking at the visual, I don't I can't really, you know, sus that as far as which uh which was the generator of it, the image or me. But I did feel emotion with some of the images. Um, so it was very much more colorful.

Um, >> do you remember any of the specifics of what was coming through? >> Oh, like the example of the rocket that was one of the ones that I got is that was a visual. Um Um, >> cuz you also you also experienced a rocket failure in base one as well. >> No, I think that the visuals were at the V >> base two, not base one. That's so interesting that it's like rockets specifically cuz if you were >> Well, that's what I remembered. There's a lot of other like scenes at a grocery store, >> like random things.

>> Okay. >> Um I saw some troop movements before. I saw like uh jeeps and and um two and a half ton deuces or whatever they're called, the the big troop carrying trucks. um marching, you know, troop marching. Um I saw um see some nature stuff like in the forest, uh animals, things like that.

>> Did they feel like things of particular strategic importance or like were they just random? >> Well, no. I I really honestly believe the entire process or the the the entire time that I was doing this was all testing. >> It wasn't it wasn't didn't have any functionality to it. >> Was this alien being that you're now speaking to the same as Spock? Was it different? >> No, this was a different one. Um, I only know that based on the the uh the quality of the communication because it I would I could say that if I were talking to you on the phone and and then you put, you know, somebody else on the phone like a a lady, I could tell that that was two people, even another guy, I could tell it was two people.

And that in the same way with this communication, you can you can definitely tell that the communication is different. It has a different flavor, a different um substance to it. sub. Um, like the tapestry analogy that I meant, it's a different type of tapestry. So, I think every I would assume when you're comm when I'm communicating with them, I have a certain tapestry that they're tapping into.

>> Did you have a nickname for this alien thing? >> Yes, I did. >> What was that? >> Um, well, I started on the the the Star Trek theme, so I just continued it with Bones. And and I only said bones because I thought it was just a funny or I used that because it was funny. But there was no really correlation with the first one. There was a correlation because he was logical.

And so I was like, "Oh, that's cool. Let's let's name him Spock." But the second one was just a continuation of the the naming schem. >> Did you ever try to ask Bones or Spock personal questions like where do you come or >> Well, yeah. for for Bones. I became more adept at doing that because I had just discovered this new plane with with uh um with Spock, but then I left soon after.

We shut down that that communications there because the base base was closing and the CVAM was being >> uh closed up and you know um packed up and all that. So, um, I wasn't able to do anymore with with Spock, but Bones, I continued that theme because I almost in almost immediately I tried that new plane that I was telling you about, the the closer one, and he was also fairly um I wouldn't say shocked, but he was inquisitive about like, really, you could do that? That's interesting. And and so we used that or I used it to and I don't think I needed to looking back at it. I could have just used the regular um tapestry or plane or whatever you want to call it. Um but I kind of associated this in my mind.

I associated that other one, the closer one, with a more informal communication. So that's what I would always use for my questions. And so I had questions for Bones and I think that a lot of the ones that we went over already are the ones that came from Bones. But >> well, you you also I think asked both Bones and Spock, is it okay that we're communicating like this from the perspective of this national security program that you're involved with? And I think they both said the same thing. Is that right? What did they both say? They they said it it it's there's no I can't remember the exact um but he basically said that there's no problem.

I mean it's not a big deal. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's communicating is communicating is >> and I think they both almost express they're like we don't quite know what the you know exact protocols are of your like human program so it's cool with us like it doesn't matter you know from our perspective. seemed like they were kind of like a uh on the same track as I was like um they're just being doing what they were being told too, >> right? >> You know, kind of >> like maybe they have officers on the alien side and they're like they have need to know and they don't really have they have a limited information set and they're just >> now they did they did um shut down communications a lot when I when I tried to ask things that they didn't want to answer.

They would just shut down. Um, but but I didn't get the sense that there was a certain way that things needed to happen. They were I think they were more interested in the testing of my ability to communicate. Yeah. >> Than they were necessarily the content.

Now, of course, >> I I'm sure they had off limit types of subjects that they couldn't talk about. But um for the most part when when I did ask a question they would give some sort of an answer at least or shut down. >> Yeah. Or they'd seem like kind of koi and like you know give you some highlevel like riddle or something. >> Well I don't think they tried to riddle.

It's just that my feeble brain >> it became a riddle because of my feeble brain. Well, it's like if you live in some timeless dimension or something, you're trying to describe that to somebody like the words literally will fail on you as well. So, what did Bones say about religion when you asked? >> Uh, well, I got the impression that we were um he mentioned that the that we are part of the same creation. In other words, we're part of the same fabric of existence >> as the aliens. >> Yeah.

Okay. >> Yeah. We're all we're all part of it. Um he didn't necessarily say they have a soul but he said that that um he he implied we had a soul. He said that there were two int there were two creations intelligent and non-intelligent and like plants were part of the non-intelligent and we and them were part of the intelligent creation and that if you have intelligence then you have >> what I interpreted when when I heard it was a soul.

Now, he might have meant something else, but this internal agency or internal knowing >> that I think that that's probably a better way of knowing it. And I think I ascribe because at the time I was religious. I I had a religious belief, so to speak. Um, so I think I pushed soul into that that round hole. Yeah.

Um, now that I look back on it, it it didn't necessarily mean soul, but it meant a sort of a a self- agency, a self-awareness. >> Did you ever ask any questions about yourself, like how was I genetically manipulated or why or Okay. >> I um if I did, I don't remember it because I I didn't get an answer, I don't think, because I I don't remember anything like that. >> Did you ever ask them how long they've been visiting humanity? >> Yes. Um I I tried to address that several times.

Um my impression was that they've been here for a very long time. >> Um >> and that they've they've intersected with humanity at different times. And he did mention also that um it became much more difficult once our civilization had advanced because it was the the levels of communication between civilizations and stuff. it was harder to keep um their um autonomy or their their distance so to speak from when they wanted the distance. It was harder to do that when other societies were talking about each other.

This was my impression. They didn't exactly say it that way, but >> that's what I I got the impression of. >> Did they talk about any sort of interbreeding between humans and aliens? >> I got the impression that they had interbreeded before um experimentally. I I'm not that doesn't necessarily mean that it was still or that we still have the results of that so to speak on Earth, but um he they he did mention that um they had experimented with that in the past. >> Did you ask are you the only alien race? Are there others? >> Yeah.

Um thank you for reminding me of that. Uh yes. Um he said there were a lot like um I got the impression that it was a silly question like like of course there there's there's more speed this entire universe >> and you think we're the only two. Yeah. >> So I I got that impression.

>> Did you ask if they have genders, you know, and their race or their lifespans were? >> Um they do have female and male. They have a a different um they don't they don't procreate exactly like we do. >> Um but they do have a a dual a dual sex type of um situation. And um and yes, they he said they do eliminate waste. Um and I I sensed a little bit of a humor with that.

>> Yeah. Which was funny because here's two different species and you talk about waste and you get humor. >> Yeah. In both cases, which is that's fascinating. Yeah.

>> And but I never felt I never felt a a sense of like um doubled over laughing type of but I could sense that it was a a lighter topic like the >> Oh, interesting. >> Yeah. Uh um when you when you talk about like missiles or or you know you get an imagery of missiles or something like that, it has a it has a a certain um framework or emotion to it. And then when you talk about stuff like that, it has a different framework or emotion to it. So yeah, I sense humor.

>> It's funny. I just interviewed this uh whistleblower named Charles Hall who claimed to live with Paul White aliens while stationed at Area 51 for 2 and 1/2 years. And he claims that they >> lived with them. >> Lived with them. >> Wow.

>> Yeah. And he Yeah. Like like interactions across, you know, you know, days at a time over in a two and a half year period where he interacts with family groups, you know, the some of the kids and the father and the and he has names for them. He calls one of them a good friend. It's he calls one the teacher.

He calls one um something hairy. He has It's wild. Um and but he says that the UFOs have bathrooms on them. >> In the back of that craft was a restroom. In the back of all the cra all those people are extra or real physical biological entities.

>> They all have to eat. They all have to breathe air, drink water, and they all have to periodically go to the restroom. So, I don't know. Um, well, I mean, it stands to reason. I mean, we're organisms and organisms have to eliminate.

So, >> yeah. >> Speaking of UFOs, did you ask about their mode of travel at all? >> Yeah, the um it had to do with electromagnetic energy and and time. M >> um uh I think the I can't even remember what it's called now. The where that there's a scientist that came up with this concept of of um um pulling the ship as opposed to pushing the ship. >> Yeah, sure.

The aluber drive. Yeah. Over the years after my communication, I I came to think that that was a very very close proximity to what he was talking. >> You're surfing kind of a space time wave. >> Yeah.

You you create a void in front of you and you fall into that void and you keep creating the void. >> Yes. Bob Lazar also says similar stuff to that. >> Yeah. I really think that was what he was what what they were trying to I I mean they never really got into details but they used um a a manipulation of electromagnetic energy probably something that we don't really understand at this point.

>> Did did they have anything to say about the nature of human beings or what what we are? >> He always referred to us as water vessels or water beings, water humans. Um, there was always a water aspect of it and I think it's because they were probably not as they aren't made up as as of a much of as much water as we are. >> That's what I gather. >> I guess we are like 80% water. >> Water's conductive and >> yeah.

So it it was just an interesting I mean it wasn't something that we focused on. It was just in in reference he would say that's that's how he referred to as humans. >> Water beans. >> Water beings. It's fascinating.

Did you get into Project Preserve Destiny and whether it was a You didn't ask them any questions. >> I did, but I never really got any answers on any of that. >> Did you ask whether it was international or just >> Well, yeah, we did um he did say that it was more than one country. >> Okay. >> Yeah.

that that was >> um maybe not necessarily involved with PPD but but but that was involved with their involvement with Earth so to speak. >> Did you get receive any messages about alien abductions or alien activity? >> Well, that was okay. So towards the end of my my stay with this project, I started to receive stuff that indicated that it was um uh abductions. And that's where I started to feel um like an accessory, you know, accessory to the crime, so to speak. And who knows whether that was a crime or not.

I mean, I don't know. I don't know in retrospect. I don't know whether they were abducting for humanitarian reasons. Who knows, you know, to maybe maybe >> upgrade our consciousness. >> Yeah.

Yeah. or increase our ability to um know about the body and and and work with it and heal it. And there could be so many different reasons why, but why surreptitiously? Why not tell the the public about what's going on? >> So, at the time, and of course, I was >> going through a stage of my life too also where I didn't want to be isolated anymore. I was in a prime >> age where you know, you're dating. And >> how old are you? Um, when I got out I was uh around that time I was uh 30.

>> Yeah, >> around 30. >> It's definitely the prime of your life. Well, I believe you asked the first captain that briefed you on everything at the NSA complex, >> why is this whole thing being kept secret and he talked about economic destabilization and things like that. >> But I think, you know, I think he was paring what he was told. I I don't think he I don't think he had any agency in that answer.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Felt like he was. >> Yeah. And and it's the same answer that everybody has that the reason why we're not being told anything is because >> religion will, you know, be upset.

>> I think that's I mean, I think we live in a pretty in effect atheist materialist world or whatever, right? Well, there would be a certain faction of people that would blow their mind if if if it actually came out truthwise. >> I think it would reinforce religion in many ways. But >> that's will create maybe others. Who knows? But yeah, it would be it would definitely do a be a shock to the system if nothing else. >> Absolutely.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> But that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done. I mean >> Yeah. >> But but anyway, I think his what he was saying to me was just it was it was just Pat answer.

Did you get like kind of a map of what was going on alien abduction wise or see any visually or anything? >> Um, so the the the reason why I thought it was abductions is because of the the the um fields so to speak that I was reporting, you know, the information. Um they would report like uh potentiality for recall and and um pain levels and and um just different um things that would I would have to report a number in back of. So that indicated that it was some sort of it could be bad or good based on the numbers. So a pain level could be good or bad. So, >> so it's almost like you were reporting on abductions, like somebody's pain level after having experienced an abduction.

That's fascinating. >> So, you were like the the like readout debrief guy or whatever without even maybe knowing it sort of unwittingly. >> Yeah. And but this is up until that point I had thought or I had assumed that the information that I was conveying was all training. It was all just stuff, you know, that was um testing my ability to communicate.

And then when the that started, it shifted my head like, well, we're not testing this anymore. I mean, obviously I can I can communicate a few numbers and and a word. So, you're you're actually using me as an operational asset to communicate stuff. and why you would need to do that. I that was another thing is but but I don't want to be I don't want to be um it's one thing to train me to do something or you know to in a training environment and nobody's getting hurt or you know nothing's nothing nefarious um other than the fact that you're keeping this from the world but other than that set that aside um but now I I see that I am part of something that may be nefarious now Maybe not, but maybe.

And then so I brought that up to my my captain and he didn't give me satisfactory answers. He said, "Look, I I'm just your communicator here. I'm just your contact. I'm I'm not I'm not in a position to um say it's okay, Dan. You know, you know, no, that's not happening.

I don't know. I don't even know what you're communicating." So, how am I I don't know what to do here. So, and then when I got to the point where I said, I want to get out, that's when he became an important catalyst for my getting out because he said, >> um, I honestly don't think you're going to be able to get out. Like, even when your list is up, you're going to have to stay in. >> So, but was that the thing that gave you moral qualms about what you do? I mean, it is fascinating.

you were kind of like reporting on abductions for the aliens maybe like they were probably, you know, getting receiving signals from you about or reports from where the abductions were occurring. And then simultaneously, presumably, you have some gray human faction of, you know, the proverbial deep state or whatever militaryindustrial complex coordinating on where the alien abductions are occurring, levels of pain people are feeling. That's that's amazing. >> Yeah. And and I I honestly could not I I couldn't be a part of it.

I I I mean, I felt morally um um compromised. >> Yeah. because I didn't have any choice. There was no agency in this, you know. So, it's one thing.

It's like um you know when you're told to go out and kill an enemy. Well, you have agency. You can say, "No, I'm not going to do that." And you can court marshall me. You can do whatever you need to do, but I'm not going to do that. Well, I didn't have that other than what I did was try to get out.

I didn't have that option. I didn't have anybody to say, "No, stop communicating with me. I don't want to do that. And I actually did in my communications. I tried to ask about it and say, "Are these abductions?" And I would never get an answer.

It was like the stonewalling. And that's what led me to get all angry about it. It's so interesting, too, cuz in UFO alien lore, you have around 1954, there's this like really important point where, this is again mythology. I don't have a ton of corroboration for this other than I think the fact that Eisenhower was actually in Palm Springs at the time, claimed to have a dentist appointment. And then the the uh sort of story is that that was cover for a meeting he had at Edwards Air Force Base.

>> Mhm. And it was a meeting with aliens where he basically agreed, you know, for basically like favor and military matters uh to uh give up part of the, you know, American population for medical testing, you know, when it came to the alien presence. And so that really does sound like what you're talking about maybe outside of the dates being, you know, early 1960s versus >> I I often wondered, well, how did they how did they get this information to people that needed to get it before >> before the IC's were doing this? I was doing it at least. So I but but um it may be it may have been a test, you know, to test my um resolve to to >> you know, they kind of >> kind of poke on the little bit of is he going to is he going to report anything that we tell him? >> Yeah. >> You know, dead dead numbers.

Is he going to report stuff that is immorally just way immoral? Is he gonna have problems with anything? >> Yeah. >> And I had a evidently had a problem. So, >> have you ever been abducted by an alien? >> I have never been abducted. I mean, to my knowledge anyway. >> To your knowledge.

>> You've never found an implant or anything sort of bizarre like that? >> No, I have not. >> Have you had synchronicities in your life that you feel like led to your involvement in Project Preserve Destiny? Um, well, you know, it's hard to it's hard to have some sort of concrete evidence, but I I remember when I was in second grade, I was playing on a garage roof and [snorts] we were there was a walnut tree next to the roof and we were leaning out on the branches and um one of the branches snapped and I fell and I fell like 25 ft. It was really, really high and I fell on my back directly on my back and I remember feeling a sense of warmth. I I did I didn't feel the impact, but I don't I don't think I felt it as much as you would. >> No, you normally >> That would be severely debilitating.

And I and I it made me cry and I got up, but I felt this warmth over me and I I I I thought that maybe I was bleeding or, you know, the the trauma of the I mean, you don't think of >> you don't think of a lot of things when you're second grade, but but in my memory, I did not hit that ground the way I should have hit it. >> Mhm. >> Given it was 25 ft up. >> And who knows? I mean there there could have been some sort of um um watching over so to speak of of my personhood. >> Um and of course the SR71 pilot he really encouraged me to go in the Air Force >> and um um I have this uh in my the update of my book which I did in 2008 or something like that.

I have this ability to hear a certain and it's not necessarily hearing but it's through my ear. It's like a wave that comes through my my head and it's sensed in my eardrum and and I think I've correlated it to seismic activity. >> I think I'm highly sensitive to seismic activity. >> Interesting. >> And I correlated it before I got into the program.

>> You sense earthquakes. Well, I can't sense an earthquake itself, but I can sense I think what is happening to a precursor of an earthquake or maybe after an earthquake. >> You have like premonitions. >> Well, it's not No, not a premonition. It's because premonition is more of a >> idea thought, but this is an actual physical thing that happens.

And and it's like um I don't know if anybody else has this ability, but when like when a electronic item comes on a TV or um anything that's really highly electronic, I can I can sense when it's come on. >> You can Yeah. >> Whoa. >> And like if if some if I'm in the in a different room and somebody has the the TV down, like the TV screen down, >> um I can sense when it's come on. So you're hyper sensitive to electromagnetis.

>> Oh, definitely. So >> So interesting. >> So the I think I've correlated the the earthquake thing and it's not a onetoone correlation. It's very tenuous and etheral, you know, because sometimes I'll send stuff and sometimes I won't. >> Well, I think you put some examples in your book around your blog where you predict accurately certain earthquakes based on sensations.

And and the only reason I did it, I I had a blog um back in the early 2000s and I put on there that I don't usually say stuff because my blog was about entrepreneurial stuff and things like that, but I I did put in there. I said, I don't usually bring this topic into my blog, but I really have to put this somewhere because I need it uh to be logged. And I said, I'm really I have this way or thing in my ear where I can sense electromagnetic energy or what I think is electromagnetic energy. And so I'm I woke up that I I don't know if I woke up, but I had I had lost ear hearing in one of my ears for like 3 days. It was really really intense.

This cuz usually I just feel it going through my head. there's a really minor time of like maybe five seconds that I can't hear and then it goes away. But this one I I was like deaf in one ear for like 3 days. It was ridiculous. I couldn't I I didn't know what was going on.

But then I correlated I was like, "Well, there's got to be some there's got to be some correlation to something earthquake wise." So I put in my blog I said, "Now I'm thinking that this might be within the next couple weeks. It could be the next couple months, but it's it's impending. This this it's got to be some seismic activity. So, um there was like two 7.5 earthquakes back to back in Japan >> and some people commented on my blog saying, "Oh, is that it?" You know, and it was only like a week or so after my thing. And I was like, you know, I guess it could be, but I don't think it is.

I think there's something way bigger than that. I this is not cuz cuz I've I've gone through 7.5 earthquakes around the world, you know, before. I never had that happen. So I was like, no, I think it's something else. So that was in September of 03, I believe it was.

And in December is when the the um the Indonesian earthquake happened >> and you know, 250,000 people died of waves and all that stuff. >> And well, no, it was four. It was it was because I updated my book in 2006 and I updated it with that information. So anyway, >> okay. >> Um but it was it was huge.

I mean whether that was just coincidence and and I got that sensation, you know, that that amount of time before the earthquake. Who knows? >> And I haven't got anything like that be since and there's been really really big earthquakes. So okay, >> now I I will get I will get it like periodically like three times >> and usually is there earthquake after you get it? >> I would I would say um a lot of the times but not all the time which is reason why I'm so I'm so unclear on it because so >> if it were a onetoone type of thing then I'd be like yeah that's definitely it. >> Well it's fascinating if you could map out the correlation more. I I I think maybe the more interesting thing is most people can't sense when a TV is turned on in their room next to them.

I mean, that's really unique. >> Yeah, it's it's um I can definitely sense and and it actually has a lot to do Well, the the modern TVs, not so much, but the tube TVs, those are the ones that I could really >> Do you think if if somebody did a study on you and you were like in a Faraday cage or like in not even Faraday cage because that will block out the electromagnetic signals. So maybe that's a bit [laughter] say somebody did an experiment on you. >> I would love to do that. Yeah.

>> You were in a room. Somebody was in another room next door. They shared a wall. You know that they have an old TV in that room and they're turning on the TV. Do you think you'd be able to >> I honestly I think I could.

>> I I mean I've never done it before, but And this is very anecdotal because I I could I I sensed it when when I was a kid. I would always know when the TV was on because when my dad would cuz we had an older TV and and the sound wouldn't come on with it. >> It would it would be one of those tube TVs, you know, the big tubes in the back. It was big magnabox and um but I I could be in a different room and I would know that when the TV came on because the sound wouldn't come up initially. It would just TV would come on it and warm up.

>> Very old. And so yeah, I just I I have a very I'm very sensitive to things like that. I'm also sensitive to it's very interesting. Um and this is a fairly new correlation although I've always had it probably but with the advent of a lot of videos being shared of people hurting themselves. >> Yeah.

when somebody when I when I watch a video of like, you know, these these videos where you'll have a whole montage of people falling and and crashing into a wall, >> crashing their bike and, you know, all these things falling falling on their porch. >> It's like Rob Deer deck show or whatever of like >> I can't watch those because when I when when the impact happens, >> I feel it in my [clears throat] body. My entire body does a shot when when I look at that >> and and it's the I think it has to do with the empathic >> Yeah. >> nature of me seeing a visual like that. >> It I I honestly cannot I mean I'll watch a couple of them and then I'll go no I can't do that.

>> So you're you're hyper sensitive. >> Very very sensitive. Very sensitive to smell, hearing. All my all my senses are very very very heightened. Like it drives it drives my girlfriend crazy.

>> I can smell somebody smoking in the car in front of me on the highway. >> Whoa. >> So interesting. >> I mean a lot of people can smell smoke too, but but they can it's very very very very heightened. >> Well, it's you know there are different forms of sensing and we obviously have the the five senses but you know that like the platypus can sense electric fields for example.

Now you have lots of examples like that, you know, >> so it's not impossible. >> Yeah. Or it's like why why, you know, maybe there's genetic mutations and maybe you were literally genetically manipulated by aliens in the womb to be able to sense certain things and other could have ancillary um crossovers in other in other areas of the brain. >> Well, that would make sense. Yeah.

That it wouldn't be an isolated thing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Babies also have, you know, they're hyper sensitive. They also have synesthesia up until 6 months.

And there's a space psychologist who works with a lot of astronauts and she calls herself a cognitive engineer. Her name is Dr. Ia Whitley and she's trying to train babies to retain their synthesia for longer because she thinks that comports with alien communication. It's It's really interesting. >> Very interesting.

>> Yeah. >> Your job is really interesting. >> I love it. It's so fun, man. That's so interesting.

I mean, I get to talk to people like you and learn about all this crazy stuff. It's so cool. >> Y >> um has anything Well, actually, we should talk about like the increased sort of bitterness towards this. So, you're in the prime of your life. You're 30 years old.

You know that you have all this opportunity cost. You're probably have no romantic life. Your social life is probably kind of shot. And then you talk to your captain about wanting out. And what does he say? And how >> Yeah.

He said he he suggested he didn't say it like you know you will not but he said I don't honestly given your position I don't think they're going to allow you to get out period >> never mind the fact you want to get out now >> I had about two or three years left of my investment and I decided to just make an inr run and and try to get out um because I just didn't want to be a part of it anymore and and I think if they said if I had become more embraced, >> part of a community, you know, part of a mission. >> Yeah. >> Those are different. You your your human mind approaches that differently that if you're just isolated and in a box and nobody wants to talk to you and you're just a tool. >> Yep.

it it it's harder it's harder to keep that that motivation and that the the Superman um the Superman uh uh aspect of this, you know, cuz when you're first told this, you think, "Oh, I'm I'm a little bit of a superhero here, you know, I'm really special and all that." That only goes so far and so long and and then you start to that starts to become no longer a novelty. It's just it's a drudgery. And then when I get this information about the about the um abductions that it just took on a new level and I just didn't want to be a part of it anymore. >> So, how'd you get out? >> At the time, the don't ask don't tell policy was in place and um and I I was bisexual at the time and uh less so now, but at the time I was. And so I admitted I said I wrote a letter to my commander and I said and this was the the commander that was not in charge of me from the project perspective project preserved destiny.

It was my just my regular chain of command my black and and then unclassified level. uh that chain of command got a letter and I said I'm admitting homosexuality and whatever you want to do with that but I don't want to be I don't want to be in in conflict with the policy of you know no homosexuals in the military and so just want to let you know I want to be honest and then that's the paperwork started and discharge and the whole nine yards. >> Wow. So the chain of command was crucial there because if if the chain of command for project preserve destiny had their way and they had final say on that then I would not have gotten out. They would have just tossed the letter and and but I I purposely went through another chain of command who did not have the option of doing something like that.

>> Were you relieved on the other side of of this or >> Oh yeah, definitely. I I was way happier that I didn't have to participate in that anymore. Um, do I have regrets? Yeah, of course. I mean, I I I regret not being able to continue serving my time because I'm kind of a, you know, I'm a patriotic guy and I love my country and and I I felt that was a little bit of a um a stab in the back of the country. But on the other flip side of that, they were stabbing me in the back, too.

Oh, yeah. Or at least a certain faction of the of my chain of command. So, it was it was something that I had to tussle with mentally. But >> well, you served and they can't hold you captive. So, >> yeah.

[laughter] Yeah. Exactly. So, and and I wasn't going to be held captive, that's for sure. >> And an alien intuitive communication program, nonetheless. You know, it's not a >> garden variety like, you know, just being deployed.

Um, Dan, did you experience any backlash after telling this story? I mean, it's kind of a a bombshell claim. The NSA is notorious for knowing everything about everybody per Ed Snowden's revelations. >> Yeah, that's true. Um, you know, I do have one story. Um, this was about maybe two years after the book came out, something like that, maybe a little less.

and I was working in an office and uh Howard Stern show called >> okay >> on my cell phone and um they the producer one of the producers was just trying to find a story to you know bring on the the show and so he was asking me some questions and and so I got off the phone and I hung up the phone and I I was like wow Wow, Howard Stern. That's an interesting interesting little venue for talking about aliens. Okay. And then not I'd say maybe a minute went by and I got another call on my cell phone and and the person on the other end of the line said, "Drop the story. Don't go on the Sahara Stern and stop talking about it." >> No way.

>> And then just hung up. >> No way. was only about a minute after the the call >> and you didn't go in Howard Stern. >> No. And and well, they never called back.

Howard Stern never called back. So, I don't >> Maybe they got the same call. >> Well, I don't know. I don't know whether it was just wasn't worth it for them to do it or they got a call or I don't know. >> But you got a call from a random number that wasn't in your phone.

>> Well, this was flip phone. Probably didn't even have the number. >> You weren't even saving numbers at that point. >> That's wild. >> And what did it sound threatening? No, it just it just sounded very direct to the point and I think it was just a they've been monitoring the situation with my story >> and and they know that if if they put attention to it, the government says, >> you know, they arrest me, let's say they arrest me and and put me up on charges, >> um they're validating the story, >> right? So it it's almost like it's better to not just leave him alone and be among you know one amongst the stigmata and and the alien >> that nobody knows how to differentiate.

Exactly. That's the trouble I have with some of these things. It's like >> and especially on YouTube sometimes it's like a it it always has this quacky veneer. It's self-concealing. It's self-stigmatizing.

And people don't have the discernment. They bucket it in with the stigmata stuff. And I'm like, "No, I think this is kind of real." Like this is like a very different, you know, variety of >> That is the problem with the the whole >> the whole topic. The whole topic. >> Yeah.

>> Cuz you don't know what to what to take serious and what to not take serious. >> You really don't. >> Do you think that the NSA or Powers That Be know that this interview is happening? It obviously hasn't been released. Do you think somebody's tracking us doing this? I think I've been off the grid so long that that I probably have not I don't have an Asian attached >> story. I don't think but slipped through the cracks.

Who knows? Who knows? Yeah. Yeah. Well, to anybody listening, >> I'll let you know if I get a call. Okay. >> I'll do the same.

Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully we neither of us get dropped the story right after this took this whole trip. >> Has anything you know, after having left this program for many years now, you're out for, you know, three decades. I imagine you go to these UFO conferences, you've written your book, and people come out of the woodwork.

And so, have you met anybody who said, "I was also a part of Project Preserve Destiny," or anything like that? >> I've I've I've had people mention to me that they met somebody who confirmed that it existed, >> but nobody that was actually in the program. No, I I have not had anybody contact me. Do you know uh have you heard of this guy named Noah? I could be pronouncing his last name incorrectly. Radec. Noah.

Radc. >> Well, how do you spell the last name? >> H R A D E K. >> Oh no. >> So he put out a Freedom of Information Act around Project Preserve Destiny, probably inspired by your story, to the Air Force and wanted to know if it was real. And the Air Force uh said, "That's an NSA project." forwarded it to the NSA and then the NSA said, "We can't comment on the existence or non-existence of such a project." >> Standard answer.

>> Standard answer if you're admitting that it exists. Basically, the modern hermeneutic reading on that is this is a real project. >> Mhm. >> I want to emphasize just how important this point of discussion is. While at first the Air Force denied the existence of Project Preserve Destiny to this independent researcher Noah Radc, they followed up later saying this, and I quote, "Good afternoon.

This letter is in final response to your 27th of July, 2023 Freedom of Information Act request for requesting information on Project Preserve Destiny. We apologize in the delay in responding. After a careful review of your request, we have determined that the information you are seeking falls under the purview of the NSA. Therefore, our office has referred your request to the NSA for their processing and direct response to you. Why would the Air Force tell RADC that this program fell under the purview of the NSA if the program didn't exist? And it's remarkable that his request to begin with didn't even mention Dan Sherman.

It independently corroborates that Project Preserve Destiny existed under the NSA. Then, not only could the NSA not confirm or deny the existence of Project Preserve Destiny, they cited Executive Order 13526 [music] around projects classified in the interest of National Defense. To quote their exact response, "This agency has determined that the fact of the existence or non-existence [music] of the material you request is a currently improperly classified matter in accordance with Executive Order 13526. Thus, your request is denied." So, yes, on the one hand, the NSA is caveing their entire response with the existence or non-existence of Project Preserve Destiny. They're basically giving themselves an out on the program even existing.

But why would the non-existence of Project Preserve Destiny cause the NSA to invoke Executive Order 13526, which only involves classified programs dealing with national defense? Why would they cite this specific executive order in response to a foyer request around Project Preserve Destiny? To me, the Air Force rerouting the foyer request to the NSA actually feels like more of a smoking gun on the program's existence. The NSA's response could be interpreted as a standard runaround or non-answer, but I'll let my hardcore researcher friends weigh in here. Perhaps what's even harder to argue with than coded language from the government is this certificate granted to Sherman by the NSA for satisfactory completion of the EA280 intermediate electronics intelligence collection and analysis course. Again, this was for the daytime course Sherman attended at the NSA complex, doing normal electronics intelligence [music] training, not his very classified Project Preserve Destiny work he would do at night, but it really helped substantiate his presence [music] with the NSA when he claimed to be working with them. A fantastic researcher named Richard Geldridge did even more digging on Dan Sherman with an ancestry.com search.

The results showed that Sherman likely in fact lived in Omaha, Nebraska between 1993 and 1994 around 15 to 20 minutes from Offet Air Force Base [music] in Nebraska where he said he was stationed. Could this be Project Preserve Destiny Base 2? It certainly fits his description. And so I don't know if you you know that that happened. >> Um it sounds familiar. It sounds like somebody told maybe you told me in in some of the communications we've had.

I've heard some something about it. >> I don't think I did. >> No, I heard somebody say something about it somewhere. you know, when you're when you're in my position, you hear so many people talk about so many different things and it's it just it becomes just a a conglomeration of of information that just goes through my head and I and it doesn't help that my personal interests don't really lie in this area. >> Yeah.

No, no, I think that's cool though. It's like probably good. It's also to me it's a good signal that you reacted the way you did just now. Um because I think if somebody were like cared a lot about like you know arguing for his case, they'd be like they'd have like a kind of like an encyclopedic like cannon of like corroborating evidence and you're like yeah cool. Like I I know what I went through so it doesn't really matter to me.

>> I think that's a big deal as a researcher and you're like whatever. >> I had a I had more of an interest in aliens before I knew there were aliens >> really >> than I do now. >> Why? >> I think it's the mystery of it. The mystery is what people are attracted to, >> right? >> Um I mean obviously, you know, we want to know the truth and everything, but >> um but I know the truth. >> So you you feel like you've gotten confirmation.

>> Yeah. So my mystery the kind of the myster uh the um the mystery aspect of it has vanished. >> Have you tried to develop your communications and speak? >> Oh, I've tried before. And after leaving Preserve Destiny, have you have you been successful and spoken? >> Nothing. Nothing's there.

It's like it's like it was closed off. >> Have you tried to recreate any of the training with the tones or anything like that or >> No, I I think they used um some sort of equipment that was designed for that. >> That was sort of this special proprietary thing that they figured out. And >> it's so interesting. Yeah.

I also think of the NSA's involvement with this stuff, the modern, you know, the the kind of UFO research group that is, you know, very in the know right now as far as the the official like the modern project blue book, if you will. >> Um, it's called Arrow, the all domain anomalies resolution office. Okay. >> And the current uh head of that, it was a former NSA director. I don't think he was like the director, but he was like a director level or whatever.

Um, so I find that his name is John Kazowski. So I find that interesting as well. It's like why would you put that guy? You know, maybe there is some NSA overlap because there aren't too many stories connected with the NSA and the alien stuff, but you would assume, you know, if the alien stuff is real, which obviously I believe it is, the NSA has to have a lot of entanglement with it. >> Yeah. Um, you know, there's so many different connections because I was assigned to Um, well, let's just say in general, >> yeah, >> I was assigned to the space command >> and and during some of my tenure in the Air Force and and uh they have they have many connections to so NSA has many connections to many different um bands.

>> Yeah. Okay. >> They're not just NSA and that's it. And you know, they have >> they have connections everywhere. >> Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I won't ask more. [laughter] We brushed up against classified stuff. There's a guy named Scott Andrews.

Have you heard that name? He when he was 36 years, he has, I guess, um, a biography coming out this or next year. Uh, that's very anticipated. >> When he was 36 years old, he started experiencing headaches and migraines and kind of destabilizing dizziness, some kind of Havana syndrome style effects. Yeah. And he said uh that his father he he started to you know wonder why he was feeling like this.

Like it was almost like his identity was breaking down. And then he approached his father who had a file on him. Uh, and he started to realize that as a as a child, uh, I think in in like, you know, elementary and middle school, he was taken out of class and he was taken to, uh, space command to the an Air Force base with a space command center and was doing kind of intuitive communications with aliens. So, it definitely sort of comports with your with your story. What's his name again? >> Scott Andrews.

>> And did did he how did you find out about this? >> It's all over Twitter. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. And did he write a book or did he just read? >> I think he's written a book and I think it's coming out at some point in the next year or so. So >> interesting.

Yeah. >> How old is he? >> I don't know how old he is now. So yeah, I mean I think that might even be a pseudonym. I don't know. >> I I I hope he uh he goes more public, but that's interesting.

Yeah, it's very anticipated like this story. >> Well, it could be it could be um an offshoot of what I went through. maybe >> another, you know, cuz they I'm I'm pretty sure that PBD has been shut down. Okay. >> In in its current or what I saw in current form.

>> Yeah. >> And and perhaps gone onto other things because, you know, things don't happen. >> They don't last forever. They they get >> they morph into something else and then that morphs into something else. >> Well, do you ever think you're part of like a reserve group where you'll get called back into duty? If the if the cataclysmic thing ever happens, I would assume that that would be the case there.

>> So, this is one of the most fascinating things about your whole story is just recently this year uh in less espresso some Italian like weekly. Uh there came out a story that references uh Project Preserve Destiny and it comes out of nowhere and this could be chocked up to some sort of weird like amalgamation of UFO lore like your story being you know an important one but it goes into a level of detail that you like you don't go into. So it's like what do the authors of this periodical know about this project? They say this and this is a translation. There are not only duties in Donald Trump's new agenda. Behind the scenes in Washington, there's a much darker dossier, the one on UFOs.

And according to confidential sources, something very concrete is already moving. It's called Project Preserve Destiny. And it's much more than just a study program of so-called UAPs, unidentified anomalous phenomena. Behind this name, evocative and disturbing, hides an institutional waltz round that risks redrawing the balance between the Pentagon and the White House. And then it goes on to describe that project as Project Preserve Destiny.

And it's like, how does this Italian weekly know about your project? >> That is very interesting. >> This is maybe the strangest modern curveball in Sherman's whole story. In July of 2025, an Italian outlet called Le Espresso published an article which discusses Project Preserve [music] Destiny and Trump's White House's involvement with it. This magazine is kind [music] of like The Atlantic or Rolling Stones dramatic Italian cousin. It has a long history of serious political journalism, but it's not shy about flirting with speculation and theatrical flare.

It's a serious outlet, but we're not talking about The Economist here. Still, when they drop a story about [music] Trump taking control of black budget alien programs, you don't dismiss it as trashy tabloid nonsense. The article claims that Project Preserve Destiny is not only real, but that Trump's inner circle has been in closed door meetings with Pentagon officials, and they've decided to move certain special access programs or SAPS out of Pentagon oversight and directly [music] into the White House. projects like Project Preserve Destiny. According to the article's anonymous sources, Trump sees the UFO issue as a kind of wild card, a chance to brand himself as the president who finally tells Americans the truth about aliens, [music] an opportunity I personally think he shouldn't pass up.

The article goes on to describe six levels of secrecy. Programs within programs. Exactly what Sherman describes in his book, a black budget cover mission deeply compartmentalized, [music] insulated from oversight by other branches of government, but above it, a gray program core above black, dealing with the alien issue. If you want to dive deeper into this mysterious Trump connection [music] and what Project Preserve Destiny might actually mean for UFO disclosure, check out our Substack, American Alchemy Magazine. I'm linking it in the description below.

But now back to this crazy interview. >> It's It's fascinating. >> You know, I I will say that out of all the presidents that have been uh re read into, you know, black projects and gray projects, Yeah. I would imagine this is the one that would uh upend the the apple cart as much as he possibly could. And it might also be why he has not been read into it too.

I I think there are certain presidents that the the status quo within the the government >> control centers >> that have decided not to read in a certain president and then other other ones they have >> um and I don't know what the criteria of that would be. >> Well, you would assume somebody like a George HW Bush who was director of the CIA would be like of a different variety maybe than Jimmy Carter. But they also might do it in in um just in certain times when they actually need to do it. If they don't need to do it, then they don't do it. >> So it who knows I mean who knows how it segs with the White House.

And >> uh is the first uh Project Preserve Destiny base that you were at San Vido Normani >> in s southern Italy? >> That is one of the bases that I was stationed at. >> Okay. Well, thank you for saying that. I figured that was that was the one that was shut down. So we did a little we did a little searching from the images that you you know >> there haven't been any other bases that have been shut down >> that I was at.

>> There might have been but the overseas car researcher where's the researcher? >> You you talk about the the white the white golden the actually you talk about an elephant cage which one of these large you know antennas and that exists there and talk about it being 50 people and it was a smaller base and so we we figured it out. >> All right here's where things get interesting. After reading Dan's book, Above Black, I kept thinking about that elephant cage [music] at the first base Dan was stationed at for Project Preserve Destiny. The so-called elephant cage was basically just a large structure which surrounded a huge antenna or receiver, and we now know this base was San Vito de Normy Air Station in Italy. In fact, here's a photo of it in his book, Above Black.

I did some research and it turns out this massive antenna was designed to pick up highfrequency waves. Offit base in Nebraska also has highfrequency wave antennas [music] and low frequency wave antennas. Were these antennas and the signals they received somehow very important for the signals that Dan himself was trying [music] to decode for the NSA? Were these satellites somehow aiding in his telepathic downloads? Did noise cancellation technologies, possibly working with the NSA in Maryland, provide some muchneeded technological assistance in filtering out the non-alien frequencies from these [music] transmissions? Who knows? But we do know that the CIA was experimenting as early as the 60s under Dr. Andre Puharic with extra low or ultra low or sometimes called very low frequencies for telepathic alien communication. Puharaj's work sort of met a tragic dead end.

He was doing all sorts of crazy In fact, he had a whole team of intuitive communicators he called the space kids who would constantly channel aliens. Puharaj's work came to a standstill, but many have speculated that it was developed and is still ongoing today. So, who knows? The entire electromagnetic wave spectrum is very, very large. Is there some slice of it that involves alien signals? alien signals being received on these bases that Dan Sherman was then able to parse and download with his mind. [laughter] And then what I you know I this Italian periodical writing about project preserve destiny there has to be some sort of connection there.

>> There is that's very interesting. I mean it's years apart but yeah. >> Do you think the Vatican knows about this project? >> I don't know. I don't know if they they would have a need to know about the project. Who knows? >> Yeah.

>> I don't know. >> What do you uh hope for the rest of your life? What what do what do you are you just do you just want to have like a normal life from here and you know? >> Well, I mean I I hope for the country that or the world really that we find um we find the truth whatever that is. And God knows you know today's society the truth is whatever is being fed to you at that moment. Sure. We we don't know what the truth is.

Um but it is my hope that we find out the actual truth behind our involvement with alien species in this in this world in our world history. Um I but I honestly don't think it'll ever happen. >> Yeah. >> I honestly do not I mean the whole truth we may get we may get certain things that come out >> like this. You know, the the NASA just recently announced that they found some sort of life on Mars.

>> Amazing. Yeah. >> And or or evidence of previous life. >> Yes. >> And and even that is amazing.

You know, so but it's things like that that we might find or we might find that aliens have been here a long time ago but are no longer with us. You know, we may find these little things. Well, NASA was also just determined to be a spy agency by Trump. And so, you have to think with some of these little announcements. Like, there was already a meteor meteorite in the '90s that, you know, Clinton came out with ALH 84001 that had polyit cyclic hydrocarbons on it or whatever.

And so, there there's already this belief and we know that Mars had a biosphere. And so if there are projects that exist like yours in the at the NSA where you're systematically communicating with aliens, this has to be some sort of slow drip disclosure like, oh, we found a little thing with some organic compounds on it or whatever, you know, that has to be coordinated. >> Yeah. Well, my that's just my hope. Um, and I I'm after this podcast, I'm probably just going to go right back into my hole.

[laughter] I've already had, you know, since um there was a a book review that just happened on YouTube just a couple days ago that it came across. I have an a Google alert for my name and you know so whenever somebody mentions my name it comes up and that came up >> and uh so it's two people talking about the book and and um >> just recently there has been a lot of chatter about my book and I don't know what kind of generated it and but it's probably what led you to it to communicate with me. >> Well, I've been into it for for for years now. What do you think about where the UFO like disclosure stuff is now? Like are you tracking any of the modern UFO whistleblowers like David Grush? >> I'm not doing anything. Okay.

I I answer a Twitter every once in a while like you. >> Yeah. >> And that's about it. And one person posted a picture of me, a bad picture of me. >> And so I I replied to him.

I said, "This is a better picture." It was a military picture. um to the extent that my name comes up every once in a while, I'll go look at it and I'll maybe comment on it if I have a comment. >> Um but I can tell you it's ramped up. That's for darn sure. I mean, it's it's way more prevalent now.

And again, I think it's because of social media. I mean, people >> people like to talk now and >> and whatever the topic is, they want to talk about it. And so that's just a good fodder for talk. Has this experience opened your mind to new modalities of physics and communicate? Like, does it make you think that what we think we know in the received wisdom that were taught in schools is extremely limited? >> Oh, I don't know. Um, I've always been interested in in advancements and stuff like that.

So when I do see an advancement or I see um like that UAP thing that just with the rocket I don't know you familiar with that with the hellfire missile. Yeah. That Eric Brent was saying just showed in front of Congress. >> Yeah. I I have a I have an intellectual curiosity about it but I don't necessarily correlate it with my experience.

Um, only because I I've there's just been so much so much over the years that >> that people say, "Well, does that correlate with what you do? Does that correlate with I have no idea. Like, I don't know. >> I have no idea. I have as much idea about it as you do." >> Did um did Steven Greer ever reach out to you? I >> I've I've talked with him, I think, a couple times over the years. Um >> because he has a whole cadre of like whistleblowers from >> Isn't he the one that he's the one that started that that project disclosure I think.

>> Yeah. Disclosure project. Yeah. >> That's what I was trying to get. >> Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. That Yeah. >> So they've been reaching out to you. >> They have. Okay.

>> Not Steven Greer himself, but somebody else now. Steven Greer. I think him and I talked a long time ago. >> Okay. >> Um but there's somebody else that's reaching out now that is talking about testimony and stuff.

So >> Okay. and he is in the position to get whistleblower uh immunity and all that. So, >> okay, >> it's like somebody from the government or on the outside >> working with the government. Okay. >> Somebody on the outside but working with the government to get to the right people to give the right kind of immunity so that people can feel free to to say what they want to say.

>> Would you testify before Congress? I go you'd go under oath. >> Oh, definitely. But but um I would do it but it's not going to for me anyway for my project so long ago >> don't think it's going to really reveal a lot of information >> but if you were called to go like in a couple weeks you'd go >> I would get I would give any information that I have. >> Well that's awesome and I think it's a again for the audience to hear that level of confidence. >> Yeah.

I mean, I there's nothing if if they give me the immunity necessary so I can talk about and not worry about talking about the stuff that I, you know, worked on and silly to the Gray Project. >> There's no reason not to. I mean, be >> open book. Ask me anything. >> Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Under threat of perjury. >> Yeah. Exactly.

>> Yeah. Well, this is the most nonchalant conversation I've ever had about alien telepathic communication. [laughter] How shalant can it get? >> Well, a lot there's a lot of drama and you know it's a lot of like bluster often with with these sorts of stories and it's it's refreshing to just hear like uh you know these are the facts. But uh it's been an honor to to speak with you. I I really appreciate you coming out here and means a lot.

>> It's been fun. >> Yeah. What do you think? My final question. Bones and Spock um what do you think they wanted with humanity? Do you think they had any sort of intentions for humanity at large? >> Um, well, I think they were soldiers. I mean, not not military, but like they were >> underlings.

>> Yeah. Yeah. They were just doing their job, so to speak. But um I I didn't ever get a sense of um any type of uh anger or any type of um not being gentle towards us, you know, having nefarious motives or anything like that. And so when I do see Hollywood project, you know, that aliens are just, you know, they're they're out to get us or whatever, I don't really see that that's the case.

I mean, imagine s being so advanced that you could coexist with another species and them not know of your existence. Totally. I mean, other than the ones that you want them to know your existence >> and and be nefarious towards us, there's no reason to be nefarious towards us. Um >> or to put it differently, we'd be dead already. Yeah, >> they were.

Yeah. >> Yeah. So, I think that they just want the best for our society and maybe that's why they haven't revealed themselves because the whole Star Trek uh mantra of, you know, don't don't interfere in other people's other societies or >> or you know, um uh because you you interject into their society something that would not have been there naturally. M >> so you're you're basically an enemy of that whatever that ecosystem is because it's not natural. >> So maybe they're thinking like that.

Maybe they want to not be as um interfering as as uh you well you don't want to be as inferior as you could be if you didn't have the um u control. You know they they control things. So they're going to interfere to the extent that they want to interfere. Yeah. >> And they haven't they haven't chosen to interfere more than they have.

So >> Well, speaking of Star Trek, it's like the prime directive. Minimal minimal interference with pre-warp drive civilization. >> Yeah, exactly. So that's what I was saying. >> Maybe your names were apt and bones.

[laughter] >> Exactly. There's a little bit of a circle there, right? Um, yeah. So, I don't think they have any um any bad feelings or bad intentions towards us. >> Well, I'm excited to see where all this goes. I am maybe slightly more optimistic than you.

I think we'll never get the full I think like, you know, the quote unquote disclosure moment people think of in their heads is actually just the start of an infinite number of further questions. say you were shown a saucer and a hanger at Area 51, that would be like millions of more trippy questions where you'd be like, "Okay, how does it fly? Where did it come from?" You know, um, so I think it's this neverending sort of bottomless soup, but I do think we're going to get more incontrovertible evidence over the next, you know, couple of decades we've gotten prior to that. >> Yeah. I mean, it's inevitable to at some point other things are going to come out. I mean, you can't really keep stuff like that hidden forever.

It's just not it's not practical. >> Um, but to the extent that we do get information, it's going to be it's going to be a fun time. That's for sure. >> I agree. Well, cheers to that.

And Dan, thank you so much for >> Thank you. >> taking the time. It really means a lot. And I know you really never do this. So the fact that you responded to me means so much and and entrusted me with this.

Uh and uh yeah, I think uh people will be really amazed at the the story, but also how you tell the story and how just kind of non non plused in a refreshing way you are. [laughter] >> Thank you. Thank you. >> Yeah. Want to thank your uh your crew here.

They're a good crew. >> Oh, well yeah, they're great. Agreed. I want to thank Dan Sherman for his time here and to you, the audience, for making it to the end. Again, if you want a deeper dive on Project Preserve Destiny, check out our Substack, American Alchemy Magazine.

I'm linking that in the description. And if you want to see this story get the airtime and attention it deserves, please spread it far and wide. Spread it to people who can take action on its implications. Until next time, I'm Jesse Michaels and this is American Alchemy.