Lt. Tim McMillan (ret.) on AATIP/AAWSAP, UFOs and BAASS

Transcript

[Music] for more than two years mystery intrigue and confusion has surrounded the Pentagon's secret UFO study known as Aten first the Pentagon said it did study UFOs that was before they told the black vault no actually they did not and that was all wrong luis Elizondo claims to have headed that very program and he told the black vault that yes they did tackle the UFO topic and he stands by that to this day the Pentagon previously denied his involvement in the program altogether but may even be changing that story as well only time will tell but with a saga full of flip-flops and conflicting stories the biggest question at least in my mind is what side do you want to believe while my guest today is retired police lieutenant and investigative journalist Tim McMillan no stranger to this program tim published a bombshell article for Popular Mechanics just last Friday he showcased never-before-seen documents reports and records that claim yes there was a UFO connection to a tip and his evidence can prove it how did that article come about what revelations were inside Tim is here to break it all down for us stay tuned you're about to journey inside the black vault [Music] [Music] that's right everybody as always thank you so much for tuning in and taking this journey inside the black vault with me I'm your host John Greenwald jr. and joining me on today's journey no stranger to this program like I mentioned in that introduction Tim McMillan Tim all the way from Germany how are you what's going on man doing good a little bit of an audience behind but man it's great to see you it's good to see you too I'm glad that we got that figured out and yeah it was it's never fun trying to link up to different countries so I appreciate your patience trying to get it we all see your on the cell phone but at least we can still see you so that's good so we had to figure out a little bit of a backup for the audio but hey it's hopefully sounding good to everybody sounds good in my ear chat room obviously if you're watching live feel free to let me know how it sounds nothing is ever perfection and live but hey we get there as close as we can so so anyway so Tim thank you so much for joining me back on this program I was thinking after today's program I think you have more air time on this show than me and I host the damn thing you've been on quite a few times but rightfully so you are literally making the headlines right now with some of the biggest stories that we've seen so congratulations to your continued success especially with last Friday's article well thank you I appreciate that yeah no I promise I will not try to take over the show but if so I will invite you back on from time to time well you know what nobody wants to hear me talk anyway so you roll with it you run with it everybody's here to listen to you but I appreciate that and and and that article has obviously created quite a few shockwaves for a few different reasons and what I want to start with we don't have to go through the whole article but what I do want to urge those that are watching that are listening on the podcast version make sure that you do take the time after this program if you haven't already to read the article there is so much literally to unpack in there I mean you dealt with an awful lot where I want you to start is just pretend that none of us have read the article give me just kind of the the the big bullet points to you what was about this article that made this really the the viral story that was it's everywhere right now well I mean you know the bullet points was this is this was my journey if you will i I you know I've told people before you know I am and do not profess to be a classically trained journalist nor do I often even refer to myself as that I'm an investigator I'm a career investigator that's what I my background I come from that's what I did for a living for almost two decades so I'm an investigator to someone's rights and for this one you know when I got interested into the whole a tube all SAP you know everything since December 2017 it came out um obviously I mean you know as well as anybody there's been a lot of back-and-forth confusion contingent the whole nine yards and so this is really the results of be going out there and seeing if I could get some clarity to what these programs were doing what was the truth of the people who were saying they were involved in them you know there were two different conflicting stories one that was from the Pentagon officially and then once all the people who were involved in the program so this was didn't clear today that I say that upfront so that everybody I know has just been released there's a lot of stuff that goes with it everybody has their own opinions or you know when they think about it but the scope of this solely lied with what is a tip what is also and then central to that was also mr. Lewis Elizondo what his involvement because he is a central figure in to the to the ATM aspect of this and so you know this is results of you know a lot of great work that a lot of people like yourself keep faster code a lot of people don't realize how much they contribute to this and I mean across whether it's us on Twitter or whether it's read it I mean there's a lot of good open source material that allowed me to kind of springboard into it and start tracking down people who were involved in these programs people who might know something about these programs now the kind of 5,000 foot view that you want the Broads folks here is the conclusion for me we can get into with this most fascinating part to me towards the end but the conclusion was that in in terms of the Pentagon's recitation that this was it also have been a tip or not UFO programs that would appear based on talking to multiple people who are involved in these programs and the material evidence came forth that was demonstrably false however it was compelling to me how things how they would about keeping it secret there was a purposeful attempt to try to make sure that it all set was never viewed as a UFO program um the first part of that is that you know I feel for Honor's of evidence was offset with UFO I know that we can say did a tip conclude after the all tab also have contract was finished you know that was another part of this whole story that side of it is well there were enough people that I spoke to or just material evidence that came across that said yes to some capacity this was going on clarified in my opinion I think to some extent because you know I said I don't know how much of it was media hyperbole how much of it was just there was a lot of Mandela effect as well when I was back listening to people's interviews I went late didn't say that but it was interpreted as this but it was you know was this a program that you think of in a classical sense as in like there's the office I'm looking for the ATF office of the Pentagon and that's that's not true that's not what was going on it was a bootstrap program which meant that mr. Elizondo brought it under his assigned responsibilities through oh you SDI and he took this on it's called a portfolio so he took this portfolio on I was being aided by other interested parties throughout the government Office of Naval Intelligence this type of stuff so it became a de facto UFO office but I want to make sure I'm clear there as well just because it was de facto and brought over it was still approved by the Secretary of Defense's office so wasn't I think even initially I thought was this just the watercooler club he noted they just sit around and talk to UFOs but no there was some sanction involvement and which would require them to have access to classified materials and it came in terms of that that goes coincides with mr. Lozado and his involvement in it in which you know by own Tintin purposes and materials of I got people I talked to indeed he was the point man doing this so if you want to call him the director the leader of the manager it's comanded semantics I got you oh and and let me let me kind of back you up before we get to four because I want to talk about mr.

Elizondo as well obviously a big topic on this program you and I've chatted about him before I've talked about him extensively and you know to my surprise actually talked with him on the record here in the last month or two and I want to get into all that but before we do I want to back you up to the UFO aspect to this which is something that admittedly I've struggled on on kind of seeing the multiple facets of what a SAP and a tip were and and and whether or not that they really did deal with UFOs now as we already dealt with in the the top video introduction to your piece there's been a lot of flip-flopping involved there's a lot of let's play both both sides here there's a lot of like lack of evidence from an official level not only with official statements and stuff like that but with the 38 reports that were generated under aa SAP there's like this confusion like well wait a minute there's nothing that says UFOs some borderline the topic absolutely but you know you kind of have that evidence then on the other side you have mr. Lewis Elizondo you have some of the information that I want to get into right now that you came out with your article that says yes in fact it did have to do with UFOs then you have the obvious Pentagon official line going from telling the New York Post who broke the story yes we dealt with unidentified aerial phenomena and then I got in twined in to this whole thing to my surprise because I wasn't fishing for this the Pentagon then changes that in December of 2019 with me and that article got obviously published in December and they flip-flopped now why I wanted to preface it with that is I want to ask you why is there this seemingly reluctance by the US government to say yes this was UFOs because we do know that they are talking about you ApS UFOs they are admitting that they have videos so it's like on one hand they're saying yeah what's the big deal with these over three UFO videos that was a story that ran last year they investigate them they've got these guidelines but then on the other hand they're like no no no a tip didn't look into this AUSA didn't look into this Wow like what in the world is that confusion and reluctance well and I think you know that the the kind of key to understanding all of it is it is very so do honest and complex you do kind of have to break it down because all all SAP is something different than a tip you know in complexity and scope and so looking at just all set what wanted to answer your question simply I don't know that there's any over cover-up by the US government per se that they were lying and trying to do that was there a potentially a lack of effort on some people's parts to look into some stuff sure and when you're specifically what we're talking about all SAP first you know it was structured by design to avoid being discussed by the government frankly and UFOs you know in the article I shared that set when I got the 10-month report which was the first annual report with it he corroborated what I had been told up to that point is that when this contract was initially structured it was structured in a manner where you know how how the VA got interested in wanting to do this is still a mystery you know we have the antidotal accounts that they went to a skinwalker ranch maybe that's true I don't know that I didn't have any material evidence to back up but clearly something in 2007 got them interested and that is when Bigelow Aerospace founded first a subsidiary company in October and then later that that we all know and love at January so six months before the contract was doing so this was a complete carve out which meant this company was established before this contract which hadn't even been issued yet which is interesting in in this contract they were going to be examining different aspects of UFO API say different aspects a multitude of aspect however that material was going to be maintained as proprietary property meaning it belongs to bat it is intellectual property that belongs to Bath and under federal law won't be released by the government and they technically don't own it now they can receive it they can go through it there somewhere there at the Pentagon there may very well be dis report along with others but they can't give it out because its vast property and so all of the u.s. oh stuff for the most part was supposed to be maintained in proprietary property and so that it wasn't something that the US government had to discuss the actual contract for all set was just what you discussed for years and what what's been discussed is these different technical reports and so that was the forward facing of what was going to be the product being purchased so the 22 million dollars that was being purchased was for these technical reports and those are US government property taxpayer funded not proprietary or hidden under a corporate shield right so I'm making sure I'm following okay but then there was this other hidden objective of AUSA through Bigelow Aerospace a subsidiary bass I want to make sure that I'm following and everybody watching her as well but but so boss excuse me I'm sorry so bass was set up to to get the AUSA contract the forward facing stuff was the 38 dirt reports but behind them the scenes bass was maintaining control of all of the UFO information yes okay they were and yeah and to get a real good understanding of it and that's why you know when I spoke to the the watchdog government oversight about it I was shocked to explain to him how this was going on and his immediate response was oh yeah totally typical very very normal for intelligence operations I said really so yeah is this was run and he made a very salient point I don't think made it into the article for the final copy it was the first clue that this wasn't a technical assessment in terms of technology innovation the assessment is it also contract was it was ran through the DIA and not DARPA he said DARPA s-- who handles that he said the DIA is an intelligence arm of it and so this was run like an intelligence operation which is what makes this probably the most fascinating thing can be and I know a lot of people are like what tenant in my report is there all this great stuff I'm sure we'll discuss that but I think that the most significant part that a lot of people missed and it's kind of how I closed that article that kind of thought someone at least people lingering with it is this was done under the auspice UFOs are real we're not going to we're not investigating to determine whether they're real or not now I didn't see anything in that report that said what they are or a multitude of things that they could have been but this was a scientific intelligence assessment in which was to determine those 38 reports represent this is the pinnacle of our scientific knowledge at this point and the foreseeable future up to 50 years or whatever so this is the best we can think of for what could explain UFOs now what is that gap those does are foreseeable ideas of how a UFO could spontaneously take off how could a UFO up here and different have different perceptions for people you know and what is our best ability to come up with ideas for how that could happen and does it adequately explain it and how big is that gap so this was a very much like you would do if you were assessing a foreign adversary of government you know what is their technology how close are we to it and so that's where you know it was a scientific intelligence assessment of UFOs but it was a metric to measure what is the technology and knowledge gap between us and them yeah because I can't stress enough what UFOs are was outside the scope i was agnostic to that it was more of these programs and so for me that was a very fascinating aspect because I think a lot of people were hoping that that report would reveal more about what they are and frankly at least from what I saw that seemed to be somewhat of an afterthought if that makes any sense it was more like well how close can we get to do by type assessment let me give some context for everybody that's watching and listening about this report that we're talking about because this to me is the most important one actually there's a couple but one of the most important parts of your article that you brought forward that no one else has been able to do and that was get your hands on the 490 plus page that was originally reported you reported as 494 pages this is a quote from your article the 494 page 10 month report as it's called is chock full of strategic plans project summaries data tables charge descriptions of biological field effects physical characteristics methods of detection theoretical capabilities witness interviews photographs and case synopses each one entirely explicitly about unexplained aerial phenomena so obviously this goes back to day one when a tip was reported that it generated a 490 plus page report but nobody has seen it uh it should be noted you were unable to publish it right the source that gave you that just for clarity you were you were told you can't publish it but you were able to publish the cover right and then chart and I think us one other single page right that was I hoping I'm not missing anything but other than that they said you couldn't publish it Tim would you like to name those anonymous sources now sure it was no I'm just putting obvious putting on on the spot there but so that's the context of the 490 page report now the question is for me that I want to ask you now that we have a little bit of context of that is the cover page obviously has bass on it and you you listed on there I don't have the quote but it was probably you've already mentioned a proprietary information could not be copied without the express permission of bass which essentially meant it was copyrighted or essentially not a government work on that document if I can pry a little bit did it say a tip awesome like did it did it mention like here's the deliverable because we do know the dirts had that did this as well no it did not and I'm glad you I'm glad I'm more than happy to talk on that reporters and a lot of people have a lot of questions about that and its source validity and everything it did not and it it referred to the sponsor throughout the entire report and so you know even though I yeah I was able to see it hold it and look at it and realize that again this was more is this report valid with this what they turned in to the DA I didn't look and determine if what was in it was you know is this the The Smoking Gun however he referred to the sponsor throughout it which again I thought was where you know who is the sponsor and so kind of sourcing that out and one thing I want to make sure I it's probably best just to give some people some backstory here is kind of why I say I'm not a classically change journalist I post things like it like a criminal investigator and one of my jobs before I left policing was I worked a typical or asymmetrical organized crime which means people who are involved in criminal networks oftentimes have an asymmetrical connection between each other the neighborhood because school are to me where they go to school the neighborhoods they grow up the family this type of stuff the guy who steals the car sells it to the guy from the neighborhood vice versa I work intelligence and those because so you can know those networks and so that type of tactic was came in very handy with this because that's how I had to deal with it was or these asymmetrical connections between different individuals and so in terms of the source you know already hey who how when I was allowed to see it I said and I asked the same thing where's the DIA where's this and they you know said that says that you know the sponsor the sponsor I said well you know how do I know the sponsor is not chick-fil-a I mean you know and so I had to go out and not just take the person who let me see this report word for it I had to go try to determine that out and so you know one good source of open source evidence what sport was a interview with George Knapp and Robert Bigelow August 28 2008 two days before SAP started her one day before it officially started for that fiscal year and you hear Robert Bigelow describing exactly what they're going to be doing two days before the contract starts and in describing his sponsors and we now know later okay the BIA was funding the offset program aligned through here and I in the low and I'm sorry let me let me just quickly ask so he was describing because I'm not familiar with that interview so he was describing a UFO research program in 2008 yes I encourage anybody to look it up I'm not sure that that interview is still publicly online I believe and I don't have his his website address I'll cut my head if you can like Keith master feels a great person too and I can get you that link but it keeps pastor killed who who's a phenomenal analyst I believe he may have a transcript of that as well but if you listen at an interview and he was between george knapp and robert bigelow you see it now and you realize he's describing offset he described it to eighteen what they'll be doing that it won't be a ford facing that they'll be doing it in the shadows that this is the sponsor who will be doing this we just got a sponsor and they were just a word of the contract right before then so you have only but for me I'm a behavior analyst - I'm looking at this going on actually homie so we keep going digging in there I will say that some of the people who you know in addition the person who let me see that they said that was the bass also I don't mind he was on the record I'll say that I did read before publication asked other how put off and why would any materials that were produced say the sponsor or not the DIA was idiot because the DIA was a sponsor and he said that was just and he was not speaking about the team at the port oh sure and also that how put off I can say under oath was not they be sourced but he said that's just common practice and when you're talking about an intelligence type report is this what it is a structure that this was set up it was one of these things that if it's you know if it gets in the wrong hands he you know you want to have some distance between you know who the real spots are here and there so if somebody just picked it up on the side of the road they may not know that this is associated with the DIA and so that's why I whispered you know specifically structured like that but but you won't find any other reference of a sponsor the bass having a sponsor other than the DIA you know unfortunately mr. Bigelow or mr. Kelleher any other representatives a big lower airspace are unable to talk about it potentially because of contractual agreements for the government so you know I can't confirm it with them I had to work him through all these other things but the other thing that I'll say that was a big clue that kind of a saltador the same circumstantial thing is the date that's on the front cover that report and that date was June 30th that coincides in the reasons a ten month report mm-hmm a 10 month report is because the first year of the first fiscal contract the first two months eat up the contract you know the bidding process so you only have ten months for your first year of a government contract as opposed to at full 12 so the fact that it said that alone with a really big clue that this was at a minimum something working off the United States government's fiscal calendar and so I would say that a preponderance of evidence but but in in terms of what your overarching question is did it ever have the stamp dia on it no I feel like it was adequately explained why mm-hmm but you know I I am one of those people that I feel good in the eye look this is if I was going to present this to a case to a jury and try it in a courtroom and I felt good about bringing it there I don't speak in definites though yeah but uh I feel like I'd have a good jury trial I get a conviction here what's interesting about your article just again for those listening and watching is that is that this isn't just Tim's interpretation what really surprised me and again that's not a lack of trust of what your word was and is but rather you went out and got Pogo to give you a statement and you know the these groups that specialize in government secrecy government transparency and I love the line I'm paraphrasing but essentially like the debate of whether or not this was right or wrong is a different you know that's that's something else but this is actually how it's done and you know I mean I've looked into government secrets and conspiracies and cover-ups and so on for 23 years and I'm always amazed to see that type of supporting quotations that you got so kudos to you that again this was not just your interpretation and again I'm speaking to the audience here but not just your interpretation that you in your article went out and got government transparency groups to to come in and essentially say yeah this is that this makes sense and I would say that that too was a very key part of your article that someone like myself really kind of it resonated with because again you have those the the expertise on top of your vetting and so on so anyway I just wanted to make sure those that were listening we're aware of that as well so digging in just a little bit more in this report obviously we've touched on the fact that it was all about you ApS I read your quotation from the article that had had all sorts of stuff in there from witness interviews photographs case synopses and so on in this report can I ask was there a conclusion section I know you said that it didn't draw any conclusions but was there kind of a final summary of everything or was this just kind of like a big report that was handed over this was a big report that was handed over I mean that's what this was not and it's crazy to think of five hundred pages and it wasn't like the closing chapter that says all right ladies and gentlemen here it is the Roswell body but that's not what this was was for either and I want to make sure I mean it was impressive because and that's what I've kind of related to some people whether it's online and everything is it there was not no one section contained a immense amount of depth so I think that when the charts I presented was a UFOs over nuclear sites back in 1975 there was no conclusion to that this was this was just used in a section where they were talking about a nuclear connection with it in something that they were looking into and data they were collecting each one of these just gave the law you know quick broad little chapters of this is why we think it's significant this is what we want to do mm-hmm this is what we have done this past year but there was no you know it was just recently tonight asked me about you know was any good photographs and there was a couple you know photographs but this was like a good picture book of hyungo pictures I think the most impressive when I saw appeared to be you know a fairly close saucer-shaped but black and white photographs that was provided by the Brazilian government and and so but there weren't a whole lot of photos that type of stuff well that that in itself not to interrupt it that in itself really interested me as that is that a photograph that's known that you've seen it before was this kind of like something that was potentially I don't know if classifieds the right word but something that no one is seen before I before but you know I also you know me I tell people I'm not you know I think that the USO topic is something that significant of this is a real investigation those real coverage deserves to be treated so and not not be diminished like like a lot of people do and I don't think it's a quick quick baked piece that it's so often treated but I'm not a ufologist and you know I try very hard to depending on what area I'm going into doing the orbit and so could this photograph be out there somewhere maybe I never I won't hold you to it I was just kind of curious like what you know like what the photo was does that that's pretty interesting if a world government gave this over even if it was just a corporation had nothing to do with the US government that in itself is pretty interesting in my brain there was a lot of references to a lot of good close cooperation with South American companies was accusing countries with that and so I don't know what kind of relationships so there that particular photo I believe absolutely was a was captured by I'm about 90% Brazil I should have grabbed my notes as if it was a Brazil as Peru but it was a South American country and it was captured by their military and provided two baths and so there was there was detail notes about the coordination I mean they had established a fairly expansive at work of collection and data and I think for me again the investigative starting the analyst side of me like the parts that I really wanted to see in other ways like well do what it is so I wanted to data aside and he just kind of gave you a broad overview but it did details that some very sophisticated data scientists you know data scientific analysis was going in to this fighting data the data that was coming from MUFON or other sources will be extrapolated and you know they were using it for different type of linear regression models to try the stuff that I wondered why I isn't being done mainly to get some real good that's the stuff that you know and that's there for the reason I reached out to Mick West in the article he gets a lot of flack but I'm like you know yes this gatah that they collected was made public and it showed their you know a statistically significant this would that change the dynamic oh how you doing a me well yeah if you have the data and serious evidence that can change the dynamic as to yet we haven't seen that and so I would love to see that but that I assume that information was provided to the DIA I assume that information is the back still has it or her legal error citation say I didn't see any of those and I'm a map guy so the linear model about I tell you guys god I'm telling you I saw it it says it specifically significant it's true they're blue radians but I didn't see that yeah there was a lot of stuff like that it was interesting in so some of that may have been coming from South American government how they got what about those contacts the DIA anybody else yeah well let me ask you really a quick question about the orchestration here of keeping the UFO stuff secret obviously we're gonna get into sources here and I joked earlier about you know naming them and I'm not prodding for that but in your research did you learn really who is responsible even at like an agency for saying we cannot be attached to UFO research and we have to shield that in the corporate world and in the you know the the non government conduct create that separation is there a consensus of who or what entity is is calling that shot it wouldn't be fair for me to say that broadly mm-hmm so it's be for the whole government everything I can tell you in the instance of all sap and this you know right now that just also in the instance of that program it was the DIA and the reason I say that fairly conclusively is I think it was mentioned that even chuckled about on Twitter that dr.

Christopher green kick green said in his study when he told me he said you know and he was genuinely when I said hey yeah hey kit I got something I want to see if either he was out you know I didn't know it was publish what's going on here but he's racing candid and said he's in one of the things it's shocking as it wasn't peer-reviewed I think that was you know people haha of course you went peer review you know Sileo opposed the other dirt that you're seeing that dirt list were peer reviewed by the DIA by their government peer reviewing standards everything before they were made the reason kit greens was not according to get was because his was to UFO and I mean if you see if you see it you know I think I have any time he mentioned the word UFO and so for the forward-facing documents they wanted his was to UFO which is also why if you'll note on the the January 2018 letter that they sent to the Senate Armed Services Committee becoming these were the products open for publication keyword out of a tip you'll notice kit green study and one other one it won't in the Congressional server meaning that any member of Congress could pull it up take a look at it if they wanted those the DIA will be happy to provide him upon request and so those weren't even but they took all the products for it I mean you know dr. Greene said he was he was paid from actually Earth Day subcontracted from bass to provide the study but his was to UFO centric so in this incident I can't pay you for the broad than the year the United States government but it was the DIA who didn't want it green - UFO study in there yeah and and the reason why I ask is that I'm curious just just if you'll indulge me with this question about the secrecy because obviously I I love that aspect of all of these types of stories and especially with the DIA I mean some of the most heavily classified UFO documents away from a tip away from us reside within the dia and and it's been a big struggle to get some of that out so my question is is is just that with that secrecy capability the the the fact that the US intelligence community can have top secret information top secret program saps I mean you're obviously more of an expert on that than I am I've interviewed you about that very topic on this program with special access programs unacknowledged saps so on and so forth when you have all of that at your disposal for the DIA to shield their interest and just put it under a classification my question is why wouldn't they do that but rather give it to a corporation and this is probably gonna come off bad and I don't mean it to be but give it to a corporation whose CEO will go on television and say I believe aliens are walking among us and so that to me is like a huge gamble because obviously in 2008 which I found interesting and I wrote it down I'm gonna look it up and I'll make sure that I inform everybody who's watching and listening what that link is to the interview but he was out meeting Robert Bigelow is obviously out there talking about it even in vague terms in 2008 so long-winded way of asking why wouldn't they just classify this in some highly classified setting that probably wouldn't see the light of day for 50 years anyway and you know that's a question I could only speculate on mm-hmm make sure to caveat that cuz that's not nobody Coldwell I'm holding you to this Tim this is it I'm okay yeah this has to be gospel or you can't answer no I know expect and I and in fairness I know it's speculation I I think it's for a multitude of reasons one of which is also hiding it from within government and I know that sounds silly but people need to realize that the governor is you know that's part of been the problem with all of this is the the nuances that go on a bureaucratic government are crazy and understand that just because you have this administration is like now this is something serious we need to look at it doesn't mean that the neck administration isn't going to think it's silly and want to make you know make you look bad or whatever I mean there's a lot of political motives I mean that is that is key to how our government run very political and the turnover and you see every four to eight years you're going to have a new directors of all of these administrations and so this keeps it away from them as well but I do get what you're saying is they will what stops Robert Bigelow from publishing all this stuff I don't know this for a fact but I would imagine it is a some type of contractual legal agreement that went along with that initial author contract and the reason I say that is because you know I see people are holding out on us you know he's the mr. Burnes of the ethology I don't know that I think that he's you know bound by the same kind of bureaucratic oats that that everybody else is to get in there to do this because I've never had a plane look Bigelow but I did find a 1999 were had I got a chance to talk to him I would ask him if he's listening mr. Bigelow asked Steve what pains because it makes me not and he was interviewed by The Wall Street Journal and he said you know there's not enough being done by government to prepare people that this reality is it exists and if be a UFO showed up on the White House long people would run to the gun store before they would you know embrace that there's other intelligent life those birth and so there's this weird contradiction here because now if you go into this program where you're like man you've got all the data but you can't share it aren't you kind of a problem so I don't know I don't know why they would go about it other than it it safeguards a considerable amount of and there's there's not as many cooks in there that can come in from the government side and you know it limits the access do it I mean it's a very interesting dynamic where now that the the contractor controls it and so even if another government administration comes along they can say no it's all ours there's nothing nuts to see here it is and I agree with you 100% that is why I spoke to more people than just Pogo or the fully attorney - I so just looked at several for you attorneys several government oversight people just because if waiting for one outlier to say oh yeah that's crazy I can't believe I've never heard of that but winning everyone was like yep mm-hmm totally totally it's done all the time and I found out that that is very common in the aerospace industry frankly that is very very common as a means of you know engaging in blue skies study or just studies you don't want to have to deal with mm-hm per se and keeping it up but I agree it does limit this it does take this control away but I'll just tell people it's not as crazy as you think when you consider the Atomic Energy Commission was a private organization that controlled all of America's nuclear weapons the most deadly weapons in the world was a civilian run organization uh 1929 then there's the UH come you know it's not as crazy that may think yeah yeah and just to reinforce that point over the fact that you have you know those those people coming aboard and saying that again that surprised even me and I'm a harsh you know skeptic about some of this stuff but when you see that and you see who's putting their weight behind it on whether or not again aside from the fact if it's a right or wrong thing that that to me is something that really I hope people that are listening and watching see that from your article and appreciate the lengths that you did to go and verify that that you challenged what you were being told and found verification rather than push back or not that's not how it is so kudos to you from from from that standpoint I I want to ask you to a little bit about something that another situation where I've been fairly skeptical about the inclusion of skinwalker ranch and its involvement in a SAP and there's a lot of rumors out there and you've obviously dove in a little bit in your article with skinwalker ranch tell everybody did you find that connection that skinwalker ranch played a huge role in aw for no huge role now I mean it is mentioned it was mentioned in the report are specifically mentioned it was mentioned as a how does it turn to a potential living laboratory for non-human intelligences so they were saying that there was something going on here but in I believe it may have been reported and don't hold me to this because I could be getting it wrong that you did the entire GD all that money went towards skinwalker ranch that was the rumor that has been reported that it was like all into that and I've always struggled with that concept but that is one of the rumors out there no not based on the 10-month report I saw no and no one I spoke to and you know there was there's people that are in there that are unnamed sources that provide a material but there's a lot of other people who were former bass employees who work in aerospace industry who weren't you know they were looked there a couple years when they're going through grad school at UNLV there are these types of people and so I talked to them and you know they they said yeah we went out to skinwalker ranch some of these people even said you don't really believe all this but they did and they were collecting all this stuff mm-hm and but it was not the focal point by no means I mean he was a small section to just went in with all the other mm-hmm stuff that was going on there there was a lot I mean the post effects medical study stuff was was fascinating to get greens study that we published was religious archive review I know people are like where's the real good data mm-hm but that's what he was commissioned for you know and he told me you know this was what could account for these types of injuries this was not a and that's what he there's only so many words you can get an article but he wanted to he was very very clear in making sure that I realized that the title that was clinical review meaning this is not research where I'm getting patients on doing that he has done some of that but that is different from what was done there but I mean that side of it was very interesting and it included some of the medical effects in South America some stuff that was disturbing mm-hmm people disturbing increase people claimed it had occurred there but skinwalker ranch dancer overall question was not the focal point but it was included yeah absolutely and in case we haven't made it clear Tim was able to get his hands on the full report that he's referencing from dr. KITT green apologies if we've already covered that I don't think we mentioned specifically though that entire paper is imbedded in your article the only reason I'm making that point is I think it was on my mobile that I first read your article and I missed it I didn't realize that the full paper was embedded in there and so for those listening watching make sure you do not miss Tim got his hands on that as well and it's a great nugget that that is in your your article that again may be missed by some so make sure you don't miss it let me ask you if you could maybe either confirm this myth or dispel it one of the two with that now that we know that skinwalker was involved at least a little bit but not obviously the focal point two things on on this was at the headquarters of a sap that some have claimed the is this was this the the home of where they did all their study it sounds like not but again just just dispelling those rumors that have been widely those are widely published which again I'm glad that I can ask somebody who's seen actual evidence these questions we just kind of put it to bed the the other thing was that the the big rumor that's been been circulating was that a tip was the UFO aspect to this which it sounds like quite possibly it could be with mr.

elizondo's testimony given it you know that that's exactly how it went that that part is true an app was paranormal ghosts cryptozoology poltergeists again sounds crazy but that is a widely circulated rumor did you see evidence of that in the report yeah I'm sorry did you say no where yes yes yes sorry yeah I mean yeah I mean this would be a good segue she would like to talk about the difference between a tip and also but yes in terms of all SAP there was a number of things that would be described by most people as largely more paranormal or esoteric I mean there you know the word interdimensional which is the word EBE came up okay that caught me off guard I was expecting you to say no so you're saying that in addition to you ApS that 10-month report went into much else interesting yeah I had no idea that that answer was coming yes it covered the gambit and that's what I mean so I'm like this could be ball lightning but then you know pointing out what is really actually no scientific insistence or what the hell ball like and who you know abduction research who interdimensional to time travelers you name it I mean this was a UFO convention textbook and so and I'm not saying that the diminishing it I don't sure it could be one or all of the above I mean I'd love to know but I but in terms of what all that covered yeah that's like what is is there a consensus of what the intelligence in the intent the intelligence reasoning for that I'm genuinely curious why the DIA would say okay we want to look into potentially interdimensional or again getting into spiritual aspects of this what was what was that about well you've had somebody you've had John Doe who's come in contact with something who he believes is an interdimensional traveler and he has either some physical evidence or some anecdotal evidence and maybe some additional eyewitness testimony evidence that supports that something we would happen and but he's saying that these were interdimensional travelers this type of stuff so this is yeah you know this is assess thank God are they interdimensional or not per se maybe they are maybe are but what kind of what kind of technology or what kind of phenomena I mean you ap was used throughout that and I just want to make that point clear because I know he's now the document were you ap was used many years ago in the US government but it's largely been you know it came back up up in the early 90s with you KMOD it really just kind of had its big reveal here lately but you ap was the word used throughout the entire reporting on UFO and so I was interesting cuz the government now is willing to say oh yeah that's you ap in those Navy videos you know where did that word from don't worry about it yeah we stole a big boat but uh they they'll you know it was not as much is this an interdimensional traveler but what types of technologies or what types of something has the capability to alter reality frankly our perception of reality is there a technology out there that can interfere with how you perceive and experience the world around you so it did run all these gammas but it didn't say for certain like okay well this is the werewolves skinwalker ranch there it was like is there something can you think of a way that we could do this even theoretically type thing so it could all be the same mm-hmm or it could all be different and so that's where the technological aspect comes into it was really not frankly if you were gonna study it from a very broad cuz it's a lot of topic I mean it is not just keen is Arnall and you know the flying saucers in the sky there's so many different things we have experience or you have these different things and so it was what could account for all of that type deal and can be figure out how to replicate it and I don't mean that sounding sinisterly like let's get back in Gail to everybody I mean you know if it's not us doing it who's doing it at how again that's just kinda broad view but I can't stress enough even though it's 500 pages you're expecting like your biology textbook at least a little bit about biology mm-hmm imagine short chapters with so much stuff today they looked at a lot of stuff and I mentioned that the first page inside that Timnath report lists every bass contractor who had the clearance to be approved in the program there was a lot of people people don't realize there's a lot of names you know I named some of the names in there that I felt you weren't really shockers like jocks la John Schuessler well I'm not a name given the article just did now congratulations there were some other they came up there and but there were a lot of names on it recognized I mean that's what I think was most fascinating for me was there was people who I think you know people be surprised that they were involved in this type of thing and I didn't write all those names down before anybody asked there was a lot going on in it a very very lot going on but they did get and cuz you're the first question I'm going on the tangent here no that's okay tangent away yeah yeah see you making notes over here they there was a difference and how a tip was run from all set now that is true and that is true and I don't know this for a fact that I was told from some of the people who were involved in both the office app and then the later a chip program in there you've heard mr. Lozado say he took the loo out of it and kind of brought it back in and I think you know it likes to be again it's great hyperbole and fodder for people who are illegally were skeptics about it you say all the space poltergeist and you know they were looking at werewolves and all of this type of stuff they were looking at the gambit of stuff but that is where we've heard him say some people said there were demons and he shouldn't be looking at it well because they were looking at demons you know they were looking at everything on the table when mr. Lozano came in and what we we'll call a tip all right with a much different structured program and so that all the hate saying whoo because you know I and we could get off of here and I could have an experience I'm not crazy I don't think anybody crazy I think you did compelling stories but some of that more esoteric maybe or metaphysical maybe more of a nuts and bolts type thing you came up when it came to the a chip because I think it's nothing else there was this realization when we talk about a technology assessment it was okay we're like a thousand years from figuring out how we could shape-shift into a werewolf people often figure out how a solid craft could do this mm-hmm more focused on that it was narrowed in on that with the 10-month report obviously you did the math that worked out from the start of us app to ten months in and that followed we know from the dirt reports they were delivered for 24 months approximately two years is there a second report I was not told about one okay I can assume it was one you know that was not I was not told about one we can assume there was one although I wouldn't know I mean because it was being held in proprietary I don't want to say it's be tentative Lee there was a 10-month report because some of the people who were involved as vast contractors told me that they were only able to complete what was they called phase one of this project okay ii was not able to be completed because of the lack of funding in cutoff and so i'm not sure what that means and I'm not sure if once the funding got cut off and you know June or whatever if they say well as proprietary anyway forget you you're not getting our ten months report or what year report at this point I don't know I I will say I would love to know because I felt like what I saw in that ten loss report gave the most comprehend but yet broad overview of everything you could think of to this topic to be associated with and I'm like well what did you do the next year the band back together I don't know I can speculate because it gives strategic plans of things that they wanted to do and one of them that I thought was interesting I and this is a good one for those researchers out there that yeah he said I don't I can't do all this and don't want to yeah I you know we all collectively is that you know they named it one of the things they wanted to do was host a series of intellectual debate forums of you know the potential revealing of an extraterrestrial presence on planet Earth than we believed they specifically named the Northern California Regents area so Wow circa 2005 anybody attended any debate call me John or anybody else big Twitter because that would be interesting I you know they described this as being a legitimate you know this would be something that would be academics philosophers you know people really discussing what are the ramifications of this I didn't necessarily interpret that to mean that like alright we're ready to disclose it but more what is what impact could we perceive yeah that happened I'd love to know cuz went on I'd love to know what did result yeah yeah I I would definitely be interested in that because if they put a whopper of you know near 500 pages together in that first 10 months you know like you said matter of deduction they probably have a second one quite possibly even fatter than the first one so in the last 20 minutes or so because the times just flying by with you I knew that this would happen and and I do want to get into the mr. Elizondo document that you have in there and and what that that proves or and or disproves I want to get your thoughts on that before I do though based on the bass slash you had mentioned ramifications you had posted a tweet out there that the Pentagon and Bigelow Aerospace were and I don't have the please fill in the blank well what's the word you use that they were kind of not floundering but they were going that were so they're they're trying to figure out where the leak leak is that's my question what is that reaction because obviously that's based from something can I poke a little bit and ask like where have you heard from the Pentagon that they're upset and from baths or Bigelow that they're upset if I if I can I know I'm probably if we were late coming on it's totally up to here we can talk longer so I don't want you to feel like you've got to get off just for me because I know this is such a big thing I know a lot of people have questions are we taking questions I have I'll put the phone number on and I'll I'll take some some text message I still got a lot more Tim done don't cut me off yet come on guys no I've been watching I've been watching the chattering - but I'll put the no camera ok a lot of people this is an easy way for to answer all yours and anybody else's because I can talk freely but ok no I know I totally forgot so the post that you said that that the Pentagon was was you know again upset that you got these leaks Bigelow Aerospace upset I wanted to hone in on that reaction like can you can you elaborate on that at all I can elaborate insane that obviously some of the people who provided information very very helpful during this how are still in certain places and you know when it comes to the the the DoD saying that the OSD was going nuts you know I thought that was interesting that I received a text message you know saying right shortly after I posted the Thursday night actually the Thursday night I posted a saying tomorrow it's coming and even gave some teasers some of the stuff that was coming and I received a message saying that you know good luck tomorrow by the way OSD is going nuts right now you know be on the lookout because they're going to do some people at OSD who aren't happy and you're probably going to face some some pushback on Twitter in these other outlets take a look and they just said you know but there's still people in the DoD who and US government there was a lot of things that said they believe this is a serious topic and you know keep doing what you're doing and there was somebody who had provided some information so they had already kind of verified themselves to be you where they were and I don't want to get them in trouble but I'll just say were within about 30 30 minutes I heard from a season ago the pentagon spokesperson after just hadn't heard from her in 21 days and so and that was another things I want to make sure everybody is very clear when I tried to verify everything I was fair with everybody the the the Pentagon has everything that was in that article and more they have names of individuals to speak to they have page numbers for reports to look at they had this going back to December all the way up until January and what delayed publication people probably I had TV was coming out Wednesday it was going to come out Wednesday however I wanted to be a hundred percent fair and Thursday was the deadline for DoD policy in federal law that they had to respond to us and I said let's give them their give them credit do and so shoreline for that I heard from mrs. go who asked me to delay publication for a little bit and I think she asked you to delay now that's yeah I mean the last just it's like come on really wait making you wait that that long some of it going back to December and I I don't want a basher because I've had a nice nice conversations with her and in fact after that this past that was there we had survived correspondences where I told her you didn't meet the DoD policy in federal law when you need to respond me I'd try I didn't have to give them all this information but I always everybody like I'm not I do believe that if there's more out there that there is a contingency of people inside government who want to see it come out maybe there's some that don't but I think we got to try to work together I don't want to antagonist ik relationship that's why I gave them what I had and so this is what's coming what do you want to respond and so yeah she asked me to delay Joey but he was already in the Shu it was lined up there was no no coming back yeah but we had we had a night we had a nice conversation Saturday receipt apologizing understood but I also and I I kind of delivered a lot of I'll clean it up a lot of poop burgers in their lap pretty quickly you know because I gave him that so I'll be interested to see what their responses I don't I can you know I don't expect him to come out and say we were wrong not at all well and then that that's that's kind of leading into my next question is that vice news there's a journalist MJ bond is I think you know MJ right yeah good guy he and I well we're all dads you included he's gonna be a guest on this program we're trying to line up our schedules because obviously I have to record during certain times with my kids and vice versa with him so he's coming on he's gonna be on here as well but the reason I bring up MJ is that in vice news they got a statement from the Pentagon you may have gotten it as well but just to kind of throw MJ's article in the discussion that in the next coming weeks I'm paraphrasing but in the coming weeks the Pentagon will be submitting new statements obviously tying in to why she asked you to hold off I have I'm being ghosted she hasn't even given me a hey we'll get back to you statement I'm getting ghosted and I've been trying to get some stuff as well can I ask you what you think she's gonna say or change or reinforce or do you have any idea they were going to war with Iran no other than I'll say you know that in our last conversation she explained to me that part of the reason that it's taken you know because it held up publication because entrie lies it we were ready to go for beginning of January but we try to give the Pentagon an adequate amount of time to look at this cuz I didn't want it there's anybody I want and you know update I wanted to hear what everybody thought has to say and you know she just told me that they had looked at the information provided it had caused them to go through multiple offices and multiple iterations could be aimed at the state and it would be this the ramifications of what everything was a statement it was not just for me it would be a statement for everyone and so therefore that's what had taken a little more time I got a little I don't know I mean I really don't know what would it will be yeah I would say the kid dreams but he kind of you know that put him in a bad spot everything everything's like oh yeah the house is doing that but you know they told their bosses the congressional democratic elected leaders of American people you know one of them's a late john mccain these are the products of a to get green study was a product of a tip here's his site it says your photo i even if they want to just say okay well you know all the rest of the dirt on it yo but that one was all right you got a pv maybe i don't know i don't know i would hope that it provides a lot of clarity because there's and i didn't dig into that as much and this will be coming in the next one but is next i think the next thing for me is alright the government was doing this much do you know you're for work oh wait it's still going on or what are we doing now and so that's kind of what i'll be working on next and so part of that is knowing who the players are who are doing it now yeah but being sensitive to the fact that and i can't stress that enough in terms of the sources and while we you know a a lot of these people you know this may be a portfolio that they have under their purview but these are people who have their primary jobs or national positions that are very important in government and I stand by the fact that me I'm trying to hold uphold the Constitution and so are they yeah you know that we're both doing our job sure institutions and so I'm not going to burn people who are casing everything but also happen to be doing UFO intelligence so but it would be good I mean I have heard this is just the reason through the Rivervale that this this may bring on a period where you're gonna maybe see some more forthcoming great yeah I I hope so I mean I'd love to know more and and dig in I want to ask you but and you're you're always gracious with your time but I'm not going to take too much advantage of it but there are a couple things I want to make sure that I ask you about and one is really important to me to ask because I think you're receiving some very unfair but loud criticism from a select few but it's loud enough that I want to make sure that you have an opportunity to respond to utilizing sources that wish to remain anonymous we've already gone through a lot of what you did to vet there's gonna be way too much more I know to to talk about in this program to show how much you vetted them but can you just kind of respond to that criticism a little bit of to a journalist and I know you said you've preface it by saying you're I forget I don't want to put words in your mouth but I it sounds like you don't like titles so I don't want to you know label you too much but to a journalist because I think you are you're well established you you you write for for well established publications how important is it those sources that that they can trust you that you will maintain their anonymity but in the same respect how is important how it is how important is it excuse me that you get that information from sources like that you're right with areas that individuals who are involved in these programs and again I can't stress enough that when I say the port is a portfolio on their desk it means that they've got all this stuff that we don't know about that thank God we can go to Disney World be safe because they're able to stop bad people okay and then they also have this because this is something that maybe falls under at a tech class that you they're good at and so but they can't go on the record about that because they become a target for espionage by foreign governments and they can't be effective in making sure we go to this little Facebook and but but again I stress enough it I you know I don't call myself gently simply because my approach is a little bit I approach it like I'm an investigator investigating a crime that I'm going to take to court so these people are what we would consider confidential informants and you don't just pick up the crack head on the street one day hey man tell me how your dealer is and trust him unbelievable and so I went about it the same way I would have done in the street where I circle around that I know more about them than they know about me and so when I approached any of these people I already had information that I could fit them with by their answers without them knowing that's kind of how the start of that article when it happens it was unofficially was that UFO but thanks but and do that for a while and so it was always are these people in the position that they can it could have had access to things that they said can we verify that first do they have any vested interest that's very important to those from the critique I've got and I'll just go ahead and say it right now event makes me a bad dresser vestigators I'll take the take on this I did not know that Popular Mechanics was owned by Heredia who owned two History Channel's that is my purview and the person who brought that up is not is not been a jerk to me about it it's more of a editorial thing why did the popular Hannigan edit point that out he kind of showed was further things alumni I'm not even worried about that but you know it was all these sources valid family substantiate them and do they substantiate the information that others have said without their knowing well I parked it I mean when to any of them would gladly you'd call them on three-way but you know like put off people people were like oh yeah oh yeah I got they got the regular goes whispers ah they I talked about a week maybe or two beforehand and said hey this is what I got hit by the way this guy runs eight is that now all the boy they were like what you know they were the last to come into it because in all fairness to them is being on them they you know they're biased it could be good bias for their bias I wanted to avoid that but more importantly than all of that is everything passed through the same editorial reviews and fact check reviews that any major publication would go through and so this is not to Macmillan in a vacuum in terms of document and even documents that I have been very coolly and had to plead to post it's a little snippet showing the transfer of a ship editors at Popular Mechanics legal departments Papa mechanic all went through the same types of reviews and publications verification that you would see any major publication and so you know we can all debate over who's the best at it whether it's not--it optimism lesson for mealtime so whatever when I was excited I made sure that anybody that was in there they had it a reason why the name wasn't used either and I had to say I respect that another stand-in yeah and but they still had to be verified and vetted for the editors to stand behind it as well and so we we went through all of these things you know went into betting that the this came up this recently and abetting that that 10 months report and I mix it I was allowed to have access to it and thumb through it about an hour and a half two hours but you know because I keep telling people I'm sorry I don't know everything is in it there's reasons there was a pond festering on it but the verification for that document he didn't just extend on I've seen it now it came through you know this was a valid back talking at this yes indeed this Canyon and I'll be the first decision again as a behavioral analyst the first thing that I knew there was something to that and I'm believing with the SE news conference I have to go back through but but in a Q&A section and I listened a lot of what they would is said candidly at conferences I believe the question was asking LaVonda so when did you get involved with a tipper when if you didn't fall with that and his answer was roughly about 10 bucks that was a clue which is kind of near 12 you know why is that so there's a little thing they used to settle but uh I want to say that I treated this under the same way I would have to verify these individuals in this information as I would have have done for almost two decades where I would take it to a courtroom testify on the stand and in these instances you know people's lives are at stake and they can go to prison yeah for the rest of their life you know then so that was the fear that I took to it but I understand why some people didn't want to talk on record the the senior intelligence official who simply added color commentary and gave some background it was in there saying why you a brought a CI guy in there I think you do in a tip nothing to do with that nothing to do with UFOs but he was willing to give an expert opinion on how intelligence operations go even fit and his quotes didn't they get in there but he said I'm not giving my name because the culture if you were can tell you don't talk serious if you want to write a book the agency approves it and so it's just the nature of the beast and they don't talk and there's a reason behind that and so yeah I just yeah the deep throat brought down the presidential administration would make them and we didn't know he was completely years ago but I stand by all of those sources and but at the end of the day if it really bothers anybody and it really really upsets them hate me call me Jody called yeah bill more with you want to I would I would rather be the bad guys I'm not gonna doubt it each people because I believe that they took a huge risk by disclosing any of their stuff because I do truly I never once doubted that they they believed they could come real in Syria and they could be people can know about yeah and and I appreciate that and the reason why I meant a lot for me to ask is I feel that that criticism is incredibly unfair I mean we see it in journalism every day away from UFOs that there are anonymous sources White House sources you know all this stuff and we don't bat an eye at it but it's like UFOs is attached to an anonymous source I come Timms making it up he's got to be lying to us all and you know that's silly the investigator and me of course I joke around about learning and who they are and and I want to know because that's the nature of Who I am yet that's not the reality of it you know and and so that that that I appreciate you fielding the question because I do feel that that criticism is unfair and you know that be that being said it's fairly common that we see this in journalism every day here in this day any emails reach out for me though I am open and willing to discuss with anybody my god there's no I cannot to be an open book and in fact I'm going to try to get out a blog this week to give some more background of it whatever because I I won't share the things that I think could damage people who I do believe are good people who are doing it for the right reason and they did not feel classified information I don't see classified information nor will I accept it but they did share things that they didn't want to be attached but I don't question it so if people want to ask I'm freelance Andrew Daniels at Popular Mechanics is my editor love the guy and he's one of the only editors who would let me write it 8,000 word piece for people that yeah the point where I not not to make light of that but I mean when you look at how many corporations truly own the world there's only like three of them and they own like everything so if you really want to start drawing those lines pretty much you can't do anything in this day and age because there's only like three corporations that own everything anyway so anyway when I read that on Twitter I'm like come on that's you know again I understand maybe what they're trying to say but but some of this stuff is just silly I think that that we've learned in UFO land that you can't make everyone happy and no matter what you do you're gonna get attacked and so on but anyway one of the last things I want to ask you about Tim here is what we talked about in the very very beginning and said we've come back to it and that is the Lewis Elizondo information that you would come across one of which I pulled it up here because I don't want to get this wrong and make sure everybody knows what it was it is a portion of a email I believe right that was given to you and I want to read it and then I want you to explain it on exactly what this means because I want to make sure everybody sees it in here is that per sec def which is Secretary of Defense / Secretary of Defense's front office guidance to you and me I took the liberty of drafting a memo then there's a portion redacted that helps you better assume the new responsibilities for a tip at your convenience please review in parentheses it's very short on purpose and let me know if you want me to put more meat on it so obviously some redactions in there the source for obvious reasons probably doesn't want to be named that being said can you explain what that means so who was it written well not specifically who but you know what I mean like is there maybe a label here who is written to and what is this about sure yeah I can't and I'm chuckling when you said meet because that was a verse saying people latched on no one can make technicals in the government you know this that and I'll just say you know I'm a career investigators standpoint by the way that's one of those little details that you go okay that's probably you typically don't essentially really do it but in oh yeah okay yes that was the that was a that would be a good guess on your part in terms of an email or a correspondence that was between one of the people who was being who was addressed and her email is Louie silicon absolutely when I understand his information everything that was documentation that was produced on DoD um servers so no it was in her office there it was dated October 3rd 2017 so a day before he officially left the DoD what you're seeing there is just a small snippet and I want to make sure I have that why it's so small is there's a number of people that are cc'd in there there's a number of people who are named in there who are government and current government employees and these these particular correspondences were all unclassified as said so however they would fall under the interoffice deliberative processes type of exemption type thing because that's what they all related to that was one of four others that extended over several months period of time that essentially detailed they transfer over of another individual who was coming into the DoD who would be assuming a the the a tip program and he detailed some meetings and it also detailed you know the other team members and facility there's access to so this is obviously stating that number one mr.

Elizondo was essentially that the the the guy in charge according to this email transferring responsibilities to somebody else but you said that let me make sure I have this part right day before mr. Elizondo or around the same timeframe that you said mr. Elizondo resigned so we're talking about 2017 October of 2017 yeah obviously stating that a tip was still around in October of 2017 which pretty much negates everything that the Pentagon has ever said about it being canceled at least the a tip program yet here we are in 2017 five years later and they're talking about it is there any indication why like evidence like this is just completely oblivious to the spokespeople and why they are missing what is obviously a well-established portfolio program semantics call it whatever you want but a tip is obviously a thing they're talking about it they're drafting memos about transferring responsibilities any idea in your research on why there's that disconnect because that surprises me in an unclassified setting yeah right and I don't really need to answer that because it would be speculating off their part and I don't know and I want to make sure that it's clear a5t because I know somebody had people so it was saying oh yeah yeah okay fine the other thought I was handed a tip 2017 is before he left I'm talking about those other years and it is the list that leads to the correspondence between the Mozilla's on those one and and some other individual it is explicitly stated you know I'm that year for me your your-your-your at least vaguely familiar with this program and have seen some raw videos over the years yeah I mean it for me and I always have you got this you know definitive conclusive type thing because I know that was one of the things people said well why do you say it's a nearly unambiguously said it because I didn't write it you know the Pentagon won't return my calls didn't tell me there's nothing about them that would make you think they weren't true and frankly it would have been highly reckless because there are name of people that I know are there you know it would have been really throwing people under the bus and I you know I won't say this much I don't know all of the inner workings yet but in terms of what's going on now with a tip it is being handled in a position that is significantly higher than the one that Elizondo maintained and so take a look which you will how important is this yeah so it is it was if I understand you correctly it is somebody much higher in the in the food chain so to speak hierarchy wise within the DoD it if I can if I can ask you is that part of the information that you said that you passed on to the spokespeople or are we treading into territory that you kind of left that as often I feel bad I'm poking and prodding but I regret not not asking of some of this information no I will I will tell people up front as well I took a page out of bass and all of these characters books and which mean but I did it so that I can candy conversations of the Pentagon as well as that I am I remember people's as they see it you know i stipulate them under the federal trade secrecy act up front saying that my emails to the spokespersons are not variable under the trade secrecy exemptions I'm saying you know this information that I'm about to tell you I consider trade secret because it does influence my businesses writing about this stuff but that allows me to have a little more candid conversation and not them as well and so that's why I do that and so there were specific offices name I don't think I named specific people and because I you know a 1/2 cautious about is I think specific people that are still doing this ergo you know just look at the circus that kind of comes with it and this kind of stuff and I will say this much that I think is important for everybody to walk away from this remember some of the secrecy is not about screwing the public and keeping everybody you know down it is information is only as good as the integrity of what you get the purity of the information you get and so we in certain instances and some of the collection stuff that they were doing and not just sourcing methods with classified systems but even bass why are they would have done some of those did when it's public facing it allows it to be infected by outside sources and I'm not talking about just the the person who saw what he said according to MUFON I'm talking about there are aspects of con when I didn't do much here there are aspects were foreign governments I found were interested in this stuff and so if this is foreign facing foreign governments can interject bad data into your data and then learn what you don't care once it comes out because you never I mean this was a great quote that got cut is it doesn't matter what it is you never share when you're in the intelligence world you don't share things you don't have an answer to because it's not very intelligent and they're an intelligence work and so you can have infections of data like that purity of data is very important and so that's part of the reason for the secrecy and that's part of the reason that I do respect that the people are who are really doing this are actually taking it on and now I know I'll be surprising I'll say this but I talked to a number of people for ever spoke to Louis Elizondo with this one who had worked with him who had served with him overseas who had been with him not all these places and he's a very whether people realize it or not take all the UFO stuff out here's a very respected person in the intelligence community I hope I don't get in trouble presenters but even the White House Angelica fade as well I mean so wow that's uh that's Nate I've never heard that that's interesting I talked to somebody who was familiar with him who helped provide some of the information about the meetings of the sector aid and a White House aide who told me that point-blank their real words to me were the testament to the job that Alexander was doing mm-hmm when he was doing what he did with a stew he was doing it as the highest via ranking general services ranking at that time when he left that position went to somebody five high five right five ranking higher and in fact higher the Pacific Fleet command during the Navy so even doing it so well at this position that they needed something so much higher to match that same level of what he was doing and they spent the better the test what it done and you know it I don't know what I was looking at well yeah as a walker the guy you read a lot of respect and I you know people come up with all these various theories and everything like that I'm not selling Lou I'm not selling TPS the other day I made a fantasy essay there's a lot of stuff they do that I'm like everybody else yeah really not debaters well yeah but there's certain stuff that I saw that I thought was interesting I think it came to be interesting the one thing I will say is is after learning all of that I mean I'm I don't know what to believe anymore I really don't because on one hand you think you you know it understand it you you see evidence that says yay or nay I don't know what to say anymore and and one thing in your article which has been referenced before in past articles by other journalists but never published was mr. elizondo's one of his I'm sorry we've been on the air for so long and I'm drawing a blank of what the the name is but his his what's the word I'm looking for his his review performance career yeah I don't know why I've drawn a blank already but but yeah you would publish a portion of his performance review showing passing flying colors I mean there's no concerns about the guy they're not saying yeah this guy's really dishonest or he's going off the rails or anything like that my whole point in bringing that up before I blanked on what a performance review was was number one that you you would publish that but number two after interviewing him and sitting down with him and having multiple conversations with him and hearing him not address every question I have and to his and to his credit he acknowledges that with me that there are certain things that I imposing that he hasn't answered yet and I I mean I kind of feel that that there's a mutual understanding there that he understands it he gets it I'm not speaking for him I'm just saying that was the impression I got but that being said after having those conversations with him and getting him on the record on some of this stuff I mean I really can't help but number one like the guy but number two just go hey wait a minute like if you really are lying and spinning this tale you're doing a really good job about it and you're doing it in a bad way meaning he's putting himself out there going hey look this is it and I'm not gonna falter because after the Pentagon stated what they did about him I would have bet money and I was wrong I would have bet money he would have come out said you know what look fine maybe I wasn't this but I was doing that okay and then have some other story and and then it changes in ufology I assure you we've seen that many times before and yet he never did and that to me was intriguing and as the weeks and then the months and then now here we are however many months after that that whole debacle I wouldn't say I'm a hundred percent convinced I will say though that hey when you think that you've got something worked out in your head ufology will show you you're generally not right and and this is one of those instances so not to go off on a tangent but I wanted to kind of add that that there's more evidence coming out and for mr. Elizondo to say I believe this year we will get this rectified we will we the Pentagon will issue new statements that was well before now they're telling MJ and News and yourself that they're going to be issuing new statements I joked around about it on Twitter and I was gonna get it to a popcorn you know a bucket of popcorn because I'm just sitting back watching at this point I just don't know what to believe anymore so not to end with a tangent but that leads into my last question for you is what's next for you what do you do from here after you've seen what you've seen you've reported on what you've reported on where are you going next dog show I think that would be a good one for dad who's gonna win that one I wouldn't blame you that's where you went you know I'm gonna steal five more minutes of your time just because you just did I want to follow up with it because you're a publicist all but know exactly what you just said and I can't reiterate that I mean that I have no cloud publishing my same credentials and everything say I was the time John Reid interrogator advanced interrogator you know with alpha group I was certified as a criminal profile investigator and that was one of the first things is when I dealt with mr.

Lozano I'm like detecting the detection near the deception here like it you really believed it it is his more documents came in he didn't get me I started gathering up from other people including you know the performance review that I published dollars and it wasn't published in full so that people don't realize is that it contains up in there it referenced threats to his life he's my terrorist I'm not gonna you know doesn't mean off-limits that tells you what he's done but I'm talking about performance reviews going back to when he was overseas with general mattis and I mean I had what I thought would you grandstanding or yeah a member of the SU and I would have foxhole with you no matter we already kind of three people who you know I kind of think he was part of a very small intelligence group that work with matters and you know clearly fighter wings are like oh yeah managed to hold his briefing to stuff in foxholes eating in marine to the Troops he was that kind of leader and I'm going okay he wasn't maybe it wasn't lie and so there was a lot of that is very interesting and I just recently this is after the articles in public I spoke to somebody who is is they are bipartisan they are detached from it but they are even around them gaily them I say Lou and everything and I they said men no no they believe and what they're saying and you know whether it's really a signer whoever is relevant but they're like no no this whole dish and so and I know that's a sexy theme but you know I don't even have to get into the we can do that a better show about the whole legal ramifications of that but um yeah yeah I'll just say that that was a very interesting aspect and all things point to me that yeah he believes it and those were in soccer so you know the transfer of power most only these a lot things new and the heat nor did he make public so even though there's probably so correspondence that went on really late 2016 early 2017 where he was expressing the same thing if you hear him saying on TV in private correspondences with even hood beardy I think this is a very important national security issue I want to be discussed business and so then they get what he wants I think that that kind of changed the dynamic for me it's interesting yeah so I'll get off that little foot balk but yeah if you've got any good quick what have you got me and I if you're tired and you good I'm cool good whatever you want to do no I buy and I appreciate that no I think that the last thing is where you are gonna go essentially next oh yeah you know it and are you planning follow-ups do you have stuff in the works I mean at this point where it's a waiting game with the government side and that's where I joke about getting the popcorn because it's it's you know it's gonna be very interesting to see them respond to this now they may have a reasonable explanation but the fact that they are going on the record with again yourself and with vice news stating we are going to respond to this that in itself to me anyway from from my very small experience with them is that that implies they are changing something because a very quick example that 2009 Harry Reid letter it was very quick for them to say we are not changing our stance when I took that letter that that allegedly had proven that mr. Elizondo had headed the program I had just plopped it digitally from George Knapp Sue's story to the Pentagon stating ok can we get an updated statement here if that's what this proves and it was like that where they're like no it doesn't change anything now the reason I bring that up is when they're not changing anything it seems like it's rapid pace when they start saying Tim delay your article hold the presses at Popular Mechanics that to me implies we have a major shift coming now what that is I have no idea and I'm not gonna pretend and guess but I would say that there's probably something big coming I asked you earlier and I'll ask you again do you think that that is potentially the case where they're gonna alter their course or do you think they're gonna come up with some cockamamie excuse that to them make sense like time-travelling Roswell bodies that you know were aliens or something I don't know I think everybody should just go ahead and appear and understand no matter what you know any government statements are made on the basis that you know it's PR and so you don't you know he doesn't come out and say hey guys we really screwed over that shoe okay you know my dad it's gonna be tempered in that kind of thing but I agree with you that the amount of time and what was last relate to me that he'd gone through multiple iterations there was a lot of hands involved in what how do we handle this most effectively and you're right because the easy answer was them we don't give a what to just said it doesn't change a thing you know but that wasn't it so I would they border mind at all I think it's at the point where I think it would be good for everybody isn't the truth all the evidence points to that the truth is saying exactly the same reason that Susan go is handling all of the DoD complaints are all the DoD inquiries for the UFOs is to say you know I got he already admitted these were III new ApS in these videos throttled off that we just admitted not too long ago to a swedish researcher roger glass hope that you know these events occur in the blank who may occur under access to data well it doesn't in a logical sense if you've narrowed it into one PR person to handle all those enquiries that you would never remember all those into one office should say across all sorts of different government agencies I think coming out and saying you know I hate we're not saying it's alien I don't see that happening and I was even saying anything other than saying there is you know potentially an office that still kind of handles this and ferrets out this information and you know maybe mister Elizondo did do a little bit there you know I don't know how these them go there i and you know they may say that in light of some of the new information that you know kid green study was not peer reviewed but it was considered a product of it yeah you wrote a bunch of stuff in there so that's why I gave him everything though I understand it was because I'm not about gotcha journalism I think that I dig in personal belief I think there's a government probably they definitely know more than we know they definitely have the glass side systems always thinking of that the idea that they have any secret government alliances with the the blu-rays on their journeys I can put I don't think that okay personally but I do think it may be you know maybe it would be nice I think there's a lot of people and before I get although and make sure that that's point clear that article came out people will be shocked and I'm not gonna name names but some of the people that I have heard from very legitimate journalists very legitimate individual out there in the society commercial airline pilot military people whose names will be known I'll put that much here like loot man I can't come out with a discovery anybody look man thanks for pushing this because two years ago me and my girlfriend were camping and this happened to us this happened to those and so and for the secret invisible college that's out there the people who are largely involved with that fast thing I hope that they recognize that me trying to get legitimate information put out this is everybody flip them and bass and mr. Bigelow probably because no one should have to live in these people wouldn't have invested their entire life for an illegitimate topic they think is DF yeah and I shouldn't live and die with that and I think that into somebody maybe the passing of Sam Freeman had an effect on me there because yeah he should he knew in his heart this was a legitimate topic I think other people should respect that as well no less than you respected cosmologist he looks at dark matter and dark energy that could be magic pixie dust - you know can't photograph it and so I would hope that that thoughts happen I think that that's what I've been impressed by is the number of people who PhD who reached out and said and then no no this is legit I saw it with my kids I saw this so I want to know and there could be an invisible college you should be able to do real serious work out public yeah so that's what I would I would like to think I know other people are ready for the Raphael body you know I'm I passed out I don't know what that all did that happen yeah so so your so your follow-up article you're saying is Thursday maybe Friday that you're coming out with all the follow-up I think is gonna be what do we do now I mean that's what I you know I kind of kick around what are we gonna do now I have been talking with some other people that can give a more current picture of what is happening now and what some individuals I see happen some of the individuals I and because I think when people see at least some what some of these individuals are trying to push in a government level I don't think how anybody could not get behind it and I mean that from the skeptic to everybody and so I need to get that out you know it's an election here I'm like I'm often well I mean more people watch Dave 80-minute film than the popular vote between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump you can't you know that's the difference maker in the quote that was cut out of the Harvard professor daughter Cobra it was a great man who gave me that quote he said it and I believe it is that it's not the government's job to decide if 70 minutes 17 percent of American people believe the government's hiding something fifty percent believe that there's something to be a float project well it doesn't matter it's their money I don't it doesn't matter if you want to spend twenty three million on a new bomb you know if the people want this and that is what they're supposed to be doing so hopefully we'll see some of it so the next one may be a little more political yeah maybe we'll we'll do it I'll call you up we'll have a black vault and Mark yeah under Washington now that's that's no that's hey this is the year for it so Tim you're always gracious with your time I know we got started about ten minutes early and you gave me 30 minutes over so that's awesome but I really do want to say thank you you know on behalf of everybody who's interested in this topic wherever you sit on the fence there is no denying that your research or articles your journalistic skills are is pushing the needle and and and I always have respect for that to whomever doesn't and it's a very short list of those who do and you're one of them which is why you make so many repeat appearances on this program so hopefully you'll come on again I want to I always like to plug websites yours chasing the Coyotes tail calm is it back online down for a little bit Hey coyotes tail calm which is where I do more than UFO century stuff you can always go to LT Jim McMillian calm and you get links to writings and you can get it link the coyote tail you can find me on Twitter and tell me I'm up us lots of people do that don't worry you'll fit right in and you know I'm always out there it may take me a while to get back to emails and tweets and direct messages but I mean that and don't if people have questions or concern Twitter about it yes about it there's nothing yeah conversation I encouraged everybody you know I'm not afraid to discuss it because I'm not I'm not trying to fill the snake oil show and I can be wrong yeah that's why I encourage people to keep going with this because I can't cannot stress enough man is people like you people like I mean Joe Mafia was cited in there he he he was able to offer some great club from another Everett Davis I mean it doesn't mean this is a compilation of stuff that happens I hope everybody gets the credit to do so as much as people say yeah you're great article is great I'm like dude there's no damn good investigators out here and damn good researchers so I'm I'm thankful for all of them well thank you thank you for that and and again thank you so much again for all of those who aren't aware if you're listening on the recorded audio version I stream these videos most of them anyway live on the YouTube channel you can get to that at WWE black vault comm slash live that will bounce you to the YouTube channel where you can find all of this and if you're watching live and don't know I take these live streams and put them into podcast form you can get those at the black vault com just enter the site anywhere it is on the right hand side make sure you subscribe to all of what I just mentioned that way you get notified the next show Tim I really do appreciate your time I'm sure you'll be back again soon I'm looking forward to your next one so thank you know John always always a pleasure my friend always a pleasure thank you Thank You Brent and anytime and thank you all for listening this is John Green well jr. signing off we'll see you next time you