Dr Garry P Nolan UAP UFO Tucker Carlson Full Interview 03/08/2022

Transcript

[Music] welcome to tucker carlson today the crazy thing about the topic of ufos is how when you get into it how really non-crazy a lot of the people who know a lot about the topic turn out to be they're kind of the opposite of what you imagine they're not for conspiracy nuts a lot of them are just scientists um gary nolan is definitely the top of that list he's a harvard he's a stanford rather professor stand for phd's an immunologist and he has over the last decade or two spent a lot of time studying the harmful effects that a parent encounters with ufos have on the human brain this is a field of study and he is at the very top of it dr aaron owens joins us in studio professor thanks so much for coming on thank you so much this is just reading your your again i just to restate the same point once more it's just remarkable once you get into this topic i don't know if mainstream is the word but it's not fringe at all so just to kind of to to accentuate that point explain your background for our viewers if you would so my main job my day job at stanford for the last 30 years has been the development of technologies to look at cancer and blood and so we've spawned a number of companies and sold a number of companies that we started out on my lab two of them are actually on nasdaq and the idea has always been that if money is coming in from the nih we should give back to the public and so in the process of developing some of these we developed an instrument called scitov which is really all about studying blood cells at a deeper level than anybody's been able to do before and so it was circa 2011 or so when some people from the cia and an aerospace company came to me to ask me for their help on the analysis of some individuals who had been had encountered some anomalous objects they said and i mean they came to my office unannounced uh and then started laying out pictures and data on the table in front of me and i honestly thought it was a joke i thought it was you're a stanford professor an immunologist doing medical research and building companies and all of a sudden one day the cia shows up at your office because they had asked around and said okay we have these people who've been injured and one of the things that they wanted to do in a complete medical work-up of these individuals was to look at the blood it's a natural thing to do if you're looking for an inflammation the blood is one of the places you might look to get a sort of a more complete list of everything that's going on in the body and so that's when somebody said well if you want to do this do it properly you got to go talk to this guy nolan at stanford because he has the world's best instrument that he's developed for doing it and that's what started it so what was your view of ufos uaps at the time you know i was kind of a science fiction fan and i was interested in it as any mainstream individual might have been but it wasn't something that i has i had any kind of focus on in my life so you had no deep knowledge of the topic no deep knowledge were you surprised that a u.s government agency was doing this kind of work i mean presumably the question was settled for them they didn't under a few of those are real they knew at that point right right no of course i mean i like i said i mean first i thought it was a joke i mean i really thought that i was being somebody was about to put me on candid camera and make a joke of it uh but as they started showing me the data and they were deadly serious i mean i tried to lure them into making a joke about it they were deadly serious about it because they had basically said at that point people have died um and uh so and then they showed me some brain images of individuals uh who had been damaged and internal scarring you can see through mris and you know it's data it's it's unmistakable you have to say okay well what did that i can conjecture or hypothesize about you know is it the russians is it ufos or whatever but the fact is there is data that says something is happening and so we need to study it and that's what a scientist should so of course oh absolutely but so for some context who were these people who had been injured um oh they were military personnel uh people intelligence agents on the ground uh a pilot uh a few pilots actually um who had gotten close enough and they had some sort of effects uh gotten close enough to some sort of unknown object some sort of object one of them on the ground as well walked right up to it and touched it and uh actually his case is pretty famous and even senator mccain was able to come in and help this individual because the army was denying him was the army of the air force was denying him medical benefits and so eventually it reached the office of of uh senator mccain and he stepped in and forced the veterans affair walked up and touched it can you back up and just tell what was the story there i mean that was the so-called rendelsham forest case in england where objects were seen uh over the bunkers where the nuclear weapons were stored uh and things were in the 70s in the 70s or so yeah there's quite a few documentaries on it so but the individuals who were actually there i know one of them quite well uh and uh he was the person who was basically denied benefits and his medical records were classified for quite a while they wouldn't let anything out about him why so he touched this object yeah what would did he describe the object yeah he described the object as basically about four or five feet across with strange writing on it i don't know i mean it's a you know it's a long time story it's not something that i i don't try too much to get into the stories and to the ancient literature because there's so many arguments and miss and disinformation about it i'm more interested in let's collect new data uh and study it right let's collate the data in a way and try to convince other scientists that the data is real not that a conclusion is real right i try to stay away from that because there's plenty of arguments and historians who want to do that you stay right in your lane i stay in my lane because that's what i'm good at yes so good call just stay away from it because so this this man specifically military personnel who touched this object in the woods near a nuclear bunker in great britain what happened to him uh he had all kinds of he had nauseous he had long-term consequences to his heart now whether any of this was directly caused by the object or not is open to debate but in the immediate aftermath of the interaction that he had with it uh there were medical consequences so you'd have to imagine that the you know that somewhere back then something happened to him that he's still dealing with years later i mean long covet as an example of yeah there can be a traumatic incident that occurs to your body and later on you're still dealing with it well many of those but part of the issue with him was sort of a ptsd that nobody would uh believe him right and then when he tried to follow up uh it with the veterans affairs office the medical offices they just denied him coverage which was ridiculous you know because he was he served his country and yet they were ignoring him but the cia believed him it sounds like yes well what happened is that a number of cases uh like this started becoming known right and so what happens is that these cases and events kind of trickle up the chain and then get moved across the dod and put in a bucket you know let's just call it the weird bucket until enough of them have occurred that somebody says okay there's there's uh something we should be paying attention to havana syndrome is an example of that right that enough individuals in diplomatic offices etc were getting sick and so there was a pattern beginning to occur and emerge and so somebody realized okay that there's somebody is probably attacking our personnel in these offices uh the diplomatic course etc so those cases all end up over in a bucket where eventually somebody pays attention to it and that was what then instigated them to come to me interesting so how many cases roughly about a hundred a hundred yeah now of those about probably 80 to 90 percent of them ended up being actually havana syndrome so as we were studying these cases um the guy who was doing the work his name is kit green he's a neurophysiologist and is also associated with the cia i used to be in the cia um he was going back to what are called the diagnostic codes because you know when when you have a new medical issue you start saying okay well what happened to them this they've got this kind of phenomena they got this kind of problem with their lungs and they've got inflammation of the skin etc and you you put them into these codes and so it was around 2015 2016 that and we had at the up to that point in time called this interference syndrome something was interfering with these individuals uh but then it became obvious that the diplomatic core issues were happening and that many of the symptoms in those individuals in the havana syndrome individuals matched some of the or most of the symptoms that we had in our big bucket why because they were in the weird bucket at the time and they just ended up being havana syndrome but that was good in a way because we were able to take those individuals out and out of consideration i didn't have to worry about them anymore it now became a national security concern but the people who were remaining were the really interesting ones to me because those were the people who claimed to have interactions with uaps right so it was kind of like in science you first characterize you collate into categories yes the categories that are understood you just step aside and put them aside and they're handed off now it's a huge operation in the government to deal with those in fact the senate intelligence committee just came out with a report this morning that has language specifically in it to look at the havana syndrome cases and to understand it also has interesting i don't know if you saw it it also has language about uaps and basically admonishing the defense department saying you guys have been dragging your feet no no more whistleblower language uh they actually there was also a situation where they want to go all the way back to 1947 collect they want the all the defense department and the cia et cetera to collect all the information around uh events that have occurred they want all of interestingly the end the ndas the non-disclosure agreements they want those all listed because the ndas are associated to people and that means they can start to name the people who have been involved they want all of the information on the disinformation and the obfuscation that's been going on and they want information about the medical harms that have occurred right and that's all in that's all in the national defense appropriations act uh for 2023. it's so this is way outside your lane but since you've had so much experience dealing with all the people involved maybe you have a theory why do you think dod or the us government more broadly has lied about this for so long so um i think that they were just afraid of admitting that they don't have control over the airspace that's one thing but also it's really back to what it is that i was saying before we have the data but we have or the to the extent that there is proof that there's something else here uh they didn't want anybody to know about it because they're scared of what the reaction might be yeah that makes sense i mean that's that's a human reaction it's a human reaction but the other point is i think it's important to realize is that when a lot of let's say these events were occurring and there's claimed crash materials that might have been uh collected this went off to places like lockheed and all of the big aerospace companies they wanted to profit off of it and many of them basically took a lot of the information set it aside and they decided okay we're going to profit about off it we're not going to tell congress what this is all about because if we do then maybe we have to share this with mcdonnell douglas or something how could so if an aerospace and i've heard this theory from very informed people i don't think it's a theory it sounds true that if there are crash materials and apparently there are there are those reside in the custody of not the us government but of exact contractors that work for the us government aerospace defense contract right mcdonald douglas lockheed et cetera how could they profit off those materials well one they can continue to ask for black budget money oh i should know this i lived in washington right right i mean the funding contained the funding can continue you might hope eventually that you can understand it right but uh and thereby profit off of it you know but my point has been that whatever this stuff is is hundreds of technology revolutions ahead of us and understandings of physics that we don't appreciate right so it's kind of like i mean the old saw is send a cell phone back to a neanderthal and see what he does with you know pound rocks eats it yeah so no it's totally right um fasting so it sounds like in the world that you live in it is taken for granted which is assumed to be true that this stuff is is real yes yeah it's 100 real i mean there's just no doubt about it i mean the data is real and this is what i when i have these conversations with other scientists who have told me gary you're going to ruin your reputation i was like well i i've my reputation has been always going against the grain and look at where i am i'm perfectly fine going against the grain uh this is real and we need to pay attention to it and it's just unscientific to not study it yes amen right i mean it's just wrong and if you're going to be that way you're a priest you're not a scientist ame thank you for saying that i feel that way about a lot of things um that touch science uh but this is definitely one of them so why so why would the aerospace company that you have not named i've noticed uh why would they be interested in finding along with the cia the answer to these questions technology i mean if you mean you've seen the reports on how these things move zero to five thousand miles an hour instantaneous acceleration and deceleration trans-medium travel yeah meat meaning from air to water air to water yeah we can't do any of that we just can't and moreover we don't know how it's we don't know how it's done and so that means that there's a level of physics that can be appreciated and maybe taken advantage of i mean hundreds thousands of years ago we looked at birds and we saw they could fly and we said we want to fly so now we see this happening and now we realize that our physics doesn't answer how that moves so we need new physics and so that to me is the most important aspect of this but if we go back to like where my career came from i always look at data and say what can i do with this and make something out of it to give back what technology can i create that can be used by everybody so similarly i look at these materials and i do have some public materials and i say if i can understand these at the atomic level and understand how these things are put together i might not understand how antigravity works but i can now bring in scientists who might be experts in the kinds of atoms that are there and say tell me what this might have been used for because this is where it came from but i mean all of that was sort of like a lighting around the central question which is like who who made these who are these people these things what is this force not human i i don't know i mean and that's why it's so hard for me not to say what i think it really is because if if i do say it is absolutely this people will start to question of course because because you can't know right right but but i think the better way to do it is to convince people that the data is real can we move back just one sentence yeah so without putting your professional credibility reputation on the line etc you're around people who study this stuff for a living who are right the most knowledgeable people on this topic in the world yes what is their general sense of what this might be that this is not from earth right it's not from earth that this is some these are aliens essentially and you know un until i see a piece of technology that does something i don't understand or until i see an alien body i'm going to also remain skeptical of course as you should but it doesn't mean i won't study it people say well why if you are so skeptical still you're studying it because it's the most important thing that could have ever of course but that's why we covered on the show not because i have no special knowledge i know nothing really but why couldn't by definition yeah the most important so is the general belief that these objects these whatever this is is coming from outside our atmosphere or that it's coming from beneath the oceans of both i think i mean whatever it is it's clearly been here for a long time and it doesn't necessarily care so much about us but it uh in terms of you know if it wanted to wipe us out it could clearly obviously all you got to do is go out to the asteroid belt and push a big rock our way and that's the end of us where the next dinosaur problem um so the next question is well if they've been here all along before we were even civilized well whose planet is this really and do you think that there is evidence that this is a a a an ongoing thing yeah yeah i mean so i don't know if you know the the um uh the astronomer and venture capitalist jacques valet you've probably heard of it of course yes and so he's actually a good friend uh and uh you know he's written books about the matter showing that if you go back into the historical records things written by the scientists and philosophers and mayors and kings of the day you know it's in the record this object was seen it looked like a wheel or it looked like a shield and it showed up over our battles and you know etcetera etcetera so you can go back and re-context the observations and say well as if somebody wrote that today i'd call it a ufo or a uap right so of course so it's been here i i think really you know one thing you have to ask is well why do they show up and maybe it's just and why don't they land that's a question i often get asked is well why would you i mean do you do you try to establish diplomatic relations with the ants in your garden when you move into a new house right no you do what you want and you dig up the yard and you do as you please you try not to interfere with them you know if there's a nest of birds you're not going to interfere you're going to try not to bother them so because you've got your own business going on you're doing your own thing so what that thing is i don't know there does seem to be some connection between nuclear power nuclear weapons nuclear fission itself and these objects i mean if you clearly notice this yes well i think if you ask yourself the question how could we negatively interact with them right i mean there's probably little that even they could do if we blew up a nuclear bomb around them so to the extent that we have reached a level of technological capability where we can be a problem to them nuclear weapons are one of them right i mean but look as far as where we're going to be a thousand years from now we're starting to move out into like with elon musk into mars maybe someday we'll be able to travel to other solar systems even by conventional means um so if you are uh an emerging species uh in this area of the galaxy and there are elders running around maybe they want to pay attention to the monkeys who you know are usually throwing mud up against each other on the walls and stuff no it's a completely does this bother you at all no i think it's exciting i i mean why would it bother me i mean because i don't think that they're here necessarily to harm us and if they want to they can so nothing i have any control over so is there any evidence of the hundred cases that you've looked at that that any of those human beings were harmed on purpose no i think it's just as bad you just if you happen to walk across an airfield and get in the way of the exhaust plume of a jet engine you're going to get harmed um before i ask you to describe what those harms are because you've seen strong patterns right in the harms um there are innumerable first-person accounts if people who say claim they have been taken into some graft and experimented upon right have you come across those and how do you assess them i come across those but i you know have a hard time it's like what i was saying before i it's an encounter it's an experience but whether those experiences are real or whether or not they're imposed on these individuals as sort of a an altered reality memory i don't know i mean here's an example there's a great case uh it's in france uh this family this is just within the last few years driving down the highway a mother and two children in the back they have an open top car during the day a crowded crowded uh highway they see over their head through the window a craft it means it's obvious and like and then she's looking around the mother's looking around and saying and noticing nobody else seems to see this okay so the kids in the back have a camera phone you know phone take a picture when they get home they take a look at the picture there's not a craft but there's an object a small sort of star-shaped object about 30 or 40 feet over there over their car so that's let's say that that's the object but it projected an image of something else and yet that's all they saw so what what happened you know it's sort of like they it was a a projected 3d image of something but it was only seen by them so when you start to hear many of these cases and jacques villa talks about this a lot that whatever these things are seem to have the ability to project altered reality into people's minds i know that sounds crazy and i'm just repeating the stories well no crazier than any other thing that we've been talking about i mean it's all outside the bounds of what we understand is science anyway right yeah i mean and i have i have the picture of that they took of that star-shaped object uh and the story and jacques had been the person who went and did the interviews for it and it that was sort of a mind bender for me the first time that i had seen evidence of something that was different than what people had perceived right and so this notion of a projected reality is something that uh really has to be part of the discussion at some point so there have been uh over centuries many centuries um reports of livestock being killed drained of blood in conjunction with sightings of these objects right you come across anything i i mean like that i know of it and i know the woman uh linda moulton howe who did a lot of these original studies uh you know again it's it's data i don't know why anything would want to do that right i really don't um and i don't know how it fits into the big picture of this because there's so many moving parts it's very hard to create a consolidated story about it and you know the only way that i can create a consolidated story is to say that there's more than one thing here right right that and that these things are somehow in tension with each other uh i mean much like when the colonial europe went around the world into africa and india etc and basically were fighting each other you know england against spain and france etc maybe that's a little bit about what we're seeing here is that these things are in some kind of tension with each other and that there is no uh unifying motivation is there evidence that there's a lot of this kind of activity under sea yes yeah i mean plenty right the sonar images show these things moving at speeds a dozen times faster than our fastest submarines with no cavitation right no you know no basically bubbles behind them because the movement would create a vacuum and would you know basically make a giant bubble and we'd get this noise no noise just sonar images so given your background in science is that explicable no no it's not no okay you have to imagine the new kinds of physics but interestingly the physicists have come up with a unifying let's say mathematics for what these things might be doing and how they're doing it does it make sense to you yeah yeah i mean one of them is called it's well there's actually a mexican physicist he has worked out the equations for a warp drive i mean we can't do it the amounts of energy required are extraordinary it's called the alcubierre drive uh but then there's a number of other individuals who have then taken his equations and shown that yeah that actually explains how these things might be moving but there's a lot of data from underwater correct but get that out of the navy and that's part of what the uh announcement today was all about this idea that congress has said enough is enough we want the data you're not going to hide this anymore we're going to give anybody in the entire dod and intelligence community a secure channel by which you can actually report this you can basically set aside the ndas or oaths that you've given because you're basically reporting it to us it'll be given to the senate and the congressional leadership right this is the first time ever that this has been done it's about time so i mean if if anybody wants to question whether this is something to pay attention to you have to realize that these are the senators and congress people who behind closed doors have seen the classified briefings right they're the people who've seen this in a way they've seen stuff i haven't seen and some of them come out and their eyes are wide yes about this harry reid of nevada constantly talking about it yeah you know and i actually uh briefly i i briefed um uh congressman gallagher about this issue before he did the uh the uh congressional uh hearings on it about the the wilson davis memo uh and you know these people are taking it seriously and you have to amazing so tell us about the the injuries so again you've seen 100 cases what kinds of injuries do people sustain i think the most dramatic are though uh because we have mris um the things that you see within the body and so what we had done was in looking at some of these mris we had noticed damage in the brain white matter disease it's called um you know if if you know anybody for instance who's had multiple sclerosis and you look at an image of their brain you'll see these white matter objects oh yeah you can yes you can see it there those white tracks there are just damage to the brain right those are dead areas of the brain uh and so if you have that dead area of the brain whatever that function might have been is now gone right so memory movement etc uh can all be affected now the brain can luckily rewire some things and so depending upon the extent of the damage you can maybe get over it but you know the ones that you're just that you just saw on that image before on the right those are serious and that was what essentially convinced me but what i asked for of these people i said look i'm not just going to believe you because you showed me images of these people i want to meet the people and so i was taken to meet the people and interview them and i took their blood for later analysis uh and uh so you know it was seeing is believing and validation and verification i did as much as i reasonably can now they could be lying to me i don't know but i doubt it because i saw some of the sort of the consequences of their injuries that that you could sort of see how they were acting etc and did they describe the encounters that they had yeah they did and i shouldn't talk about some of them because some of those people's names have kind of become uh you know uh public uh and so sort of hipaa rules really of course but so without without identifying them yeah um what kinds of encounters did they have uh objects on the ground with that were you know glowing or you know moving too fast or they were there and they got too close to it and then it just disappeared and then afterwards they get these they get these radiation burns very often some of them have been uh basically on the skin you see this sclerosis of the skin reddening inflammation of the skin uh like a nagasaki like a exactly like a so some sort of electromagnetic radiation we imagine uh but then it goes deep enough into some of their bodies if they got too close that would cause lasting scarring within the body which is not something you ever want to have ah and then the brain injuries and the brain injuries and the ranges were interesting because one of the things that we noticed in these individuals and this is sort of a side study which i'm working on with a group at harvard uh is we noticed that an area of the brain the caudate patamen in many of these individuals was over developed and that's a whole other story but basically we figured out that this is an area where intuition happens and a lot of these individuals who we had were it's called them high functioning you know you don't get to be a pilot of a expensive craft without being reasonably smart and having intuition uh and so um just a side benefit of studying this allowed us to find a come up with a medical understanding of where cognition is happening in the brain and we're following up with that in a mainstream science way with a neurophysiology group at harvard and we've validated the original findings but that was sort of a it's sort of an example of because we paid attention to anomalous data we found an anomaly that really had nothing to do with the injury in the first place but it told us something about what makes people intuitive and smart and that is going off in a mainstream direction that's cool yeah so was there consistency in symptoms yes yeah i mean what were some of the symptoms inflammation nausea uh are the two most i mean if if if i irradiate you with a whole body irradiation you're going to get sick you're going to throw up you're going to depending upon which organ system was let's say most impacted directly uh you're going to basically have problems with that but the the commonalities were the skin issues uh and then some internal uh issues with the brain when you see brain damage that's when people start paying attention it's hard to localize brain damage and or damage in the rest of the body you know and associate it with did you see consistent cognitive symptoms no okay no just i mean again it's like in that image depending upon where in the brain it happens uh where the damage happened to be caused that function associated with that part of the brain would be hurt yeah like scary arms not being able to move right or you know walking cognition i never lost yeah yeah i don't remember ever reading about any of the survivors of nagasaki or hiroshima suffering cognitive problems brain damage i would bet that there was okay so is this so in other words who is collecting data back that's such a great point all right that's exactly right john hersey um so what the injuries you saw are not inconsistent with like exposure to nuclear material correct yeah and and so what that tells us is i mean at the very least what i would say is that you know let's say in the next round of uap directives from congress or from the army or the air force is stay away you know you see a glowing craft on the ground right i mean it seems obvious but you know i mean some of the people who i know were so intrigued by what they were seeing they felt that they had to walk up and touch it because this couldn't possibly be real i mean i would probably be in that case oh me too oh totally you know and you know and so you can kind of understand but i mean i think the one of the directives is until we know what is going on stay away i mean you know for all so put a warning label on ufos yeah yeah i would i you know demand that they wear seat belts did any of the people you interviewed i i just can't believe you've had this experience i cannot i was just just about to i can't believe your office at stanford the cia shows up it is uh it is out of a movie it just turns your life in this amazing direction but um i wish that would happen to me did any of the people you interviewed see anybody in control of these craft see any not in this not in these cases but i in the injury cases i do know of cases non-injury associated where things were seen what kind of things little beings i i don't know what to say i know it sounds crazy like what what the eyewitness account said yeah the eyewitness you're not ratifying this i'm not ratified no the eyewitnesses always talk about something about that tall right with you know they call them the grays i don't know what with humanoid features features now i have a problem with humanoid features because you know one of my backgrounds is evolutionary biology yes and so i don't see the possibility of something else evolving on another planet that looks like us you know unless god is intervening in very specific ways almost any thing an octopus could become intelligent and fly around yes so i think that part of what we're seeing here i mean look if you're an intelligence are you going to go down on a planet with a bunch of angry monkeys who might kill you no unlikely you'll send some intermediary well what kind of intermediary are you going to send you're going to send something that maybe almost looks like them but isn't them so i think and this is again from inside the intelligence community most of what we think we're seeing are avatars biological robots that are basically put there to be the minions if you will and that's that's the current view of that that is a it is a hypothesis it's i mean to me if i were going to another place or if if i were going to study a native tribe of let's say cannibals maybe i wouldn't show up in the middle of their village so that i don't inadvertently become dinner yes right so you would send an intermediary first but i've used this example uh i i don't know if you know lex friedman you probably know lex friedman he's an interviewer does he's an ai scientist at stanford i did one with him and using example of the of the ants as well let's say that they were in a race of intelligent ants at the bottom of your garden how do you tell them about instagram right how do you talk with them how do you interact with them you would probably make something that looked almost like an ant and you'd put it down there but then how are you going to interact with them well with pheromones that's how they talk but you do something else right you're you're speaking about whatever it is you talk about at the dinner table but you to translate down to their terms you would have to use some sort of an intermediary so it's kind of a lost in translation problem right you you want to put something there that can interact with them so that they can know that there's an object but you for instance you're not going to show up and put yourself in danger i wouldn't i mean we send drones of course i'm tracking uh intently i just wonder if this has changed your perspective it's changed everything i look at everything now and wonder what's going on but it also sort of by comparison makes a lot of the things that we debate or fret about seem pretty small right you know and and i think ronald reagan had a conversation with gorbachev back in the days of the cold war where he said at one point if aliens showed up would you work with us against them and drop the cold war i mean that was that's a recorded statement he got in front of um the u.n and said something similar and that all came from a sighting that he had had when he was the governor of california right so basically what he was saying was something like this could bring us together i mean what law can you remember in the last year or two that has complete bipartisan support this yes right this has brought people together and people say to me well why why are you talking about it on this show or that show i said because this is above politics yes it certainly it has to be you know and if we can't talk about this in a non-political way then why are we bothering with anything we might as well just silo ourselves and build walls around everybody that's how i think about it i i couldn't agree with you more and it's also inherently fascinating but it it raises a lot of raises a lot of questions a lot of theological questions also right i would say yeah well the vatican is deeply involved yes in trying to understand this as well and the vatican has already come out and said if there are aliens they can also be children of god yes right there's no reason they can't be uh there's no reason we can't treat them as you know as humans if you will even though they might not be right that we need to treat them as equals because why not they have no problem with it and this is more i mean especially if you speak more with the jesuits right the jesuits are a little bit more amenable to this kind of thing but the vatican has come right out and said it well they have their own observatory i believe the vatican observatory and the vatican astronomer uh has come out and said positive things and they've been on this for a long time yeah and you know there are rumors of stuff that's deep in the vatican library that a good friend of mine who you might want to eventually have on a show like this is diana pasulka at the university of north carolina she's a comparative religion uh professor fascinating uh work when you start asking the question how will uh the admission of that we are not at the top of the food chain anymore change all the religions right because one of the first questions that somebody's going to ask is okay well if they do show up and want to talk with us who is their god how do they see great question you know and so and then everybody every other religion will be looking for anything that anything like this says for a mirror of what they believe in and it would just start a whole new series of arguments so that is yet another thing or another reason why the government might feel a little uh you know hesitancy about bringing this kind of information forward well it's inherently destabilizing yeah yeah um sure because if the us military is not the most powerful force in the universe then it kind of then we're yeah resets your expectations and the populace might you know might you know revolt so how were you treated at stanford uh you know i think five six years ago there was a fair amount of giggling about it but i you know i mean i mean luckily i have you know frankly a really good reputation as a serious scientist i mean like i said i've i've commercialized a lot of the things so i and i've you know the stuff we do is you know cutting edge i don't want to pat myself on the back too much but um it's it's cutting edge so people are like okay well if and so this is actually what's brought over some people is is if gary thinks this is real maybe we should be paying attention to it well here's an example so i'll go give a talk in boston and you know a bunch of professors uh at will you know take me out to dinner inevitably after one drink this question comes up i mean and not to make fun of me but to have a serious conversation and almost inevitably one of the group has said yeah well i saw something when i was a kid right or one of them comes up to me afterwards and says gary you know uh this right so if you give people permission in a place where they will not be ridiculed you have a much more open conversation about a subject matter that's so important and for many people you call them experiences or you see something like that i mean i saw something when i was very young when i was 12 as a paper boy went right over my head what did you say where were you this is connecticut what town uh windsor i know it yeah you went to trinity outside hartford yeah yeah windsor winds are locked in locks and uh it was early in the morning i was delivering newspapers i was walking through the woods between one street another hartford current hartford current exactly exactly um and uh uh going from one street to another through the woods and this i saw the lights it was like march uh the tree branches and my shadow in front of me and then the shadow started moving and i looked up and this object went i mean right at the level of the top of the trees went right over my head with light shining down it was i could kind of see the outline of something round uh how big no sign probably 30 40 feet across wow and i mean it was unmistakable i wasn't dreaming i wasn't asleep etc but i didn't call it a ufo i didn't know what it was i just didn't know what it was and it wasn't until a decade or so later when you know you start seeing movies close encounters of the third kind that kind of stuff is that what i saw you know you look back retrospectively and say you never forgot it i never forgot no it's one of those moments and that yeah thank you that was actually the point i was i was trying to get to when you see something like that you never forget it it is it is it changes your life i hate to call it it's almost like a spiritual experience this is what diana pasulka writes about that professor i told you about um and not that i'm not christian or i'm not or i'm one thing or another it's it changes your life in a way that it puts things in perspective so when you hear other people's stories about this stuff i feel inherently like i want to protect them i want to i want to help them not be attacked for something that they saw because it's wrong first of all that they should absolutely wrong so you should i sort of feel like we need to give people that open space some of them might be delusional perfectly fine some of them might but a lot of them are not as you said at the beginning of the show that there's any of a number of people who are otherwise credible who are absolutely dead focused on this now um and so you know through the efforts of lou elizondo and chris mellon and many others on the inside that unfortunately will not ever be known in the roles that they've played to bring this forward they have given a level of credibility to this that has opened the area up for all kinds of people to move in i mean the uh the national association of aerospace engineers now has a committee on this it's a 50 000 strong or so uh union of scientists right nasa has come out and said that there you probably have seen this that they're studying it right they're saying this is worth study and they use the same language that we've been pushing it's data it's science scientists should be interested in things that they don't understand and we shouldn't take anything off the table right should be interested in things they'd understand right that's the whole point that's the whole point of it it so that leads to the the bigger and very obvious question which is how can we have a society in which many people have firsthand experience of these things in which mountains of data exist proving that there's something there that we don't understand and yet there's still this social sanction laid it against anyone who mentions right like what is that well i mean it was it was directed misinformation and disinformation and so one of the things you might want to look at the language of the of the new um bill that just came out today literally lou sent it to me you know exclamation points saying we want you to catalog you the intelligence services all the attempts at obfuscation and disinformation of the u.s public that you have been doing beginning with roswell beginning with roswell 1947 right actually there was a case two years before roswell but um that is not very really very well known um where was that trinity actually uh it was just very close to roswell trinity trinity new mexico new mexico yeah um interesting case but you know the reason why that's important is because you know people's lives were ruined right people's careers were derailed uh and you know it's not that we need to go back and fix all of that and you know come up with some kind of you know monetary compensation for those individuals but i think vis-a-vis the ptsd issue sometimes people just want to know that they weren't that when they were called crazy that somebody finally says you weren't of course but going forward now i mean we might not be able to fix the past but let's not recreate the past and the truth is worth telling for its own sake yeah it's just it's it's a virtue to tell the truth period and you know it's interesting i think you know i go around and i will talk to people about this issue so many people have not heard about this that it kind of surprises me in a way because you know i would be interested in it but then i realized if it isn't affecting the bread and butter issues at their table every day why should they care right and and so um you know i think that those of us who are in the middle of it need to realize that we do live in a bit of a bubble uh and that the rest of the world is trying to just survive and whether or not there are aliens or whatever it's not going to change when it changes their lives then they might pay attention right so i mean it is still something which the public finds fascinating and you know if you do a public survey of it if you were to list that amongst the things that do you think this is interesting people would check yes it's interesting but they aren't actively going out and seeking answers yet except it's begun now to open up to the point where the government has said yes it's okay now scientists are saying okay it's okay now all the people who are kind of in the closet are now coming out but it's been almost 80 years and even before that i mean pilots throughout the second world war they call them foo fighters yes you know right so um so what we're seeing is this entire edifice of lies starting to crack right and clearly it's coming down but you know that disinformation manufactured by propagandists in the us government has been taken as truth for generations right so knowing that and that's that's true we know that yeah does it get you reassessing anything else we think we know uh yes in some way [Laughter] but the answer yes is enough so it has yes yes i think that the nature of our reality is uh yet to be fully understood i think that's you know that there's a lot of things that people think are fringe that appear to have some evidence and my interest frankly has been can i place this fringe object in the mainstream of science right can i can i come up with some kind of explanation about how this weird stuff people think is happening can be real right not that i have to believe it but i what i want to do is is place it into our physics or find a bridge and a connection to it so that we can explain it now what's good about all of these things is that money now is starting to appear right i mean new jersey actually now put out a postdoctoral fellowship for people to study uaps the state of new jersey right i'm involved with you know trying to set up resource is to be able to fund researchers for this kind of stuff because you know scientists inherently will follow the money i can't take my nih dollars and go study ufos right i mean i have a certain box i have to stay in uh but i do have money from uh a uh an endowed chair that i have uh which is i can do anything i want with it's four hundred thousand dollars a year and i have talked to the donors and they're fine with me using some of this to study ufos right so i have the money to do it i've also spent a lot of money on my own pocket on it but now that there is going to be uh let's say validation you know the national science foundation could get involved the you know lockheed might have to do you know one of the things that's actually in this uh in this um new bill is calling for i think they use the word cadre of academics and scientists who would advise the intelligence agencies on all of these issues not just uaps but other things for the first time because there are so many barriers for this but one of the things that i i wrote a white paper for some of these committees and i called for that i said you need to bring the scientists in not that we know better than anybody else because no scientists can actually be dorks it's because you want that outside opinion you want the crazy opinion because you just want it on the table sometimes because it might be true and you know when you do have a decision to make you don't want it to be a political decision at some level you want it to be science and you want to use the best science to inform the politics and the policy makers so that they have the information at their disposal but we don't have it yet so now we do now it's starting to come and it's literally in the bill today that says we will now try to establish and find ways to bring scientists on board in secure manners right with classified uh access uh because i don't want to give it to the chinese i certainly don't want to give it to the russians yes right so um obviously this information has to be vetted uh whatever we might learn uh and but then at some level though you you you need to get the information out to academics because the silo approach of the last 80 years has not worked having one piece of it at lockheed having another piece of it over here another piece of it over there they can't talk to each other right by definition of how these things are set up that isn't how a laboratory works that isn't how science works i need to know all this other stuff of course and so we need to find a way to declassify enough things so that the collective smarts of the country can come to bear on it to hopefully use it i mean i've come back to constantly if there's something here can we use it and can we take advantage of it no first for the country and then for the planet that's just my interest that's always been my approach to life i i think the most heartening part of this conversation always has been fascinating but is the confirmation that science still exists scientific thinking the open-mindedness that science requires still exists it's not all just superstition right and reflexive political orthodoxy so anyway i'm just i'm grateful that you're doing this i'm grateful you're taken so seriously at stanford yeah and above all i appreciate you're telling us all this thank you very much thank you very much appreciate it amazing talk across the natives name the show new episodes this week on fox station of course every night 8 p.m we'll see you in the fox news channel [Music] [Applause] you