Mage of the UFOnauts: Allen Greenfield on the history of UFOs, the occult, and how they intertwine

Transcript

to probe the sineuous border between magic and the UFO, aliens, and the realm of gods and spirits. This is Neon Galactic. I'm James Faulk. Thanks for joining us. One of the most confounding and mysterious alignments in the core conceptual cohort surrounding anomalous human experience resides in the apparent commonalities between the occult and unidentified flying objects.

This is not a recent revelation. The flirtation between the two has long been appreciated with rocketeer Jack Parsons from the 1940s and prior being a sort of poster boy for this strange convergence. He was a leader in the highstakes development of cutting edge technology and he was also someone who was passionately pursuing a magical means of making his own unique mark on the universe. Euphologists like John Keel, author of UFOs, Operation Trojan Horse, and other euphological classics chronicled several types of manifestations and occurrences that belied this connection, including the rather ominous appearances of deadeyed men in black. Others, including most famously Peter Levvena from the Secret Machines franchise with Tom Dong, have theorized that the two subjects speak much the same language and that the common ground may well be the human soul.

As Lenda has asked, are flying saucers a kind of magic circle, a portal between psychic domains? Our guest tonight, Alan Greenfield, is both a eupfologist and an oultist, a magician who has advanced several fascinating theories about what's behind these similarities and what they both indicate about reality and our human species. Having published a number of books on magic and UFOs and then being featured on the hit show Helier, Greenfield has long been deeply immersed in both traditions. a lifetime spent researching and perfecting his ideas around consciousness, spirit, aliens, magic, and the nature of reality. And his ideas are alarming. Are humans even now captive to ultraterrestrial intelligences, discarnate personalities, more powerful than humans? Maybe, but less than gods? these alien minds who manifest to contactes and prophets as necessary to nudge us silly humans back onto their behavioral program.

Are these ultraterrestrials all on the same side? Or is there a war on the so-called black lodge versus white with one side drawing us forward to mystic insight while the other seeks to bury us in delusion, ego, and greed? Are Helena Bvatzki's Tibetan masters an actual thing? This is a conversation I've been dying to have since the UFO mystery leapt up off the page of Time Life books and bit me on the brain. It's my honor and pleasure to have him on the show. Welcome, Alan. >> Wow, that that's the best introduction I ever got. Usually they read something.

Uh he was born in 1902 with the uh flying, but that you uh you told me before the program you do your own research. >> You got me, fella. >> Well, I appreciate the work that you do and your uh interest and expertise surrounds a part of the phenomenon that I've been obsessed with since the very beginning. Um, you know, I think that it's become a not so well-kept secret that consciousness and UFOs have a lot to do with each other and that there are these strange similarities between, you know, magical operations and what people see manifesting as UFOs. Does one explain the other? I don't know, but there may be some connections there.

And I know that uh through the work you've done and uh you know the uh the books and all of that you're one of the more educated voices on that very aspect of of this subject. So I'm thrilled to have you and um yeah I just wanted to sort of uh get your take on um you know the ultraterrestrial hypothesis that idea of white lodge versus black and what aliens may be in relation to all that. So I guess my first question would be what was your first love? was the occult or UFOs and how did you come to accommodate both in your uh research and you know your uh expertise? >> Well, I would call it coincidence except I'm relatively well known for saying there are no coincidences. There are synchronicities. But I got interested in both at pretty much the same time.

I was just a punk uh 12 13 year old kid and uh I saw what I thought was a UFO. It was clearly um jet contrails. But at the time I had just read an article, I don't even remember where about the National Investigations Committee on aerial phenomena, which I've come to believe was a CIA front. But uh be that as it may, uh I sent them a letter describing what I had seen and they invited me to join. And I gosh, I can join the night camp and send them my $ five dollar.

So, or whatever it was back then. So, I did that same year or within a year. I also joined the mystic arts book society which was an outlet for every book on the occult and mystical that wasn't copyright or had outlived its copyright. So, I read them all in that same time period that I was being inundated by the uh I think it was called a UFO investigator, which is not really what NAP did, but >> that's that's a whole story for a program of its own. Um so for me the I mean one of the books for example was uh a book about the fa the fairy lore uh of mostly of Europe but also uh worldwide um the fairy faith in Celtic countries by Wy Evan Wentz.

It's always in print because it's it was never copyrighted I don't think but in any case it's been it's a turn of the 20th century late 19th early 20th century book and it reflects the period but I read them all you know I read a way I became a tarot reader which now since I you said a lifetime it's not a lifetime yet but a long time I'm probably, unless some Roma person, an elderly Roma person has been reading tarot longer than me, I'm probably the senior most tarot reader, at least in the United States. >> Yeah. Wow. >> It's just because I've been around for a long time. I mean, my first reading was for my mother when back in the day when there were only two decks.

Uh there was the uh the church of light black and white tiny deck in California which I think they still exist. They're a descendant of the hermetic brotherhood of light which I've written about extensively and traced them to their layer layer layer layer. Do you have a reverb there? to their layer there. And uh uh also uh the other deck which was just coming out, I think it was US Game Systems that brought it out was the uh so-called weight deck or the rider pack. They call it everything other than what it really is, which is the Pamela Coleman Smith who wrote who designed the deck uh in the style of the art of that period.

So that was I got one of those three with my book by uh A.E. Wait uh one of Crowley's foils. Uh perhaps a more enlightened person than Crowley in my opinion, but that's editorial. Um he uh he uh inspired the deck and it was in turn inspired by the Golden Dawn. And I would say 90% of every deck and there are thousands now.

Well, hundreds anyway. Maybe thousands. I don't know. I don't count them, you know. I I never count anything over a thousand.

I'm not that well educated in math. I'm a humanistic person. Well, anyway, there are over 10 decks now. And uh there was no place I could get it except from the publisher. So, I figured, well, I'll read the book.

And I did. and it had all those little standard interpretations. >> And then I did a reading for my mother and the rest, as they say, is history. And including a five-year stint as a master psychic on the psychic friends network. >> That's cool, man.

Uh, you know, >> no, COOL IS NOT FOR what they paid us. No, no, no. I bet >> they the clients were $3.99 a minute and we got 25 cents a talk minute. >> Wow. >> Eventually the IRS got after them and they folded.

>> Yeah. I wonder why. >> Well, because they said the people that you have reading for you, you're listing them as independent contractors. And not to get too deeply in the weeds, but the IRS said no, they're employees. So for the last year, they had to do the paperwork and then they folded.

>> But it was an experience. Let me tell you on the uh I could wax uh a sentimental in a manner of speaking. Uh just about my experiences for five years and 2,000 clients. I did the graveyard shift. Okay.

So, you got the really really desperate, weird, and dying and occasionally suicidal people. >> Oh my god. Uh it it was well I only had about five of those and their policy was you had to have a separate dedicated phone line and anyone who sounded suicidal you were supposed to dial the other phone and you know tell them this person is in an I wouldn't do it. I risked my job because I thought, look, five minutes into the call, the person would say, uh, unrelated to what they'd said before, uh, I'm sitting here on this ledge, and immediately I would go into get this person through the night. Forget psychic readings, give them reason to have hope.

>> And I don't know what happened after we parted. They were usually a half hour, but I would like to think I saved the lives of four or five people during the course of those five years and didn't lose anybody. Thank God. >> Yeah. Yeah.

So, okay. >> People would ask me like, "Does God love me?" You know, I can't get that from the tarot deck. But I I most of them asked uh as we put it in the trade questions about romance and finance. Well, I'm a good old boy from the south, so I'm able to take on that kind of question very easily. You have to find the difference between the 4:00 a.m.

call whether the lady calling is a hooker or a nurse because it couldn't be anything else. Okay. So, uh it didn't require being psychic to if you heard a bell in the background, it was a nurse and they'd say, "How did you know it was a gift from God?" or if you hear in the background really loud rock music DANCERS DANCE FOR TIPS ON LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. I SAID um your exotic dancer I how did you know it's a gift from God lady go ahead with your question. Okay the show's over right that's that's all we need to talk about right there.

Uh well I mean like at what point did you find that there was some efficacy in magic? I mean like um you uh started with the tarot deck but then you I know that you at one point at least had become a high ranking magician and in a magical order. Um how where did the how did that process unfold for you and then how does that connect with your interest in eupfology? H okay those are very different questions but uh >> uh >> I consider myself a scientific illuminist. A lot of the people that use that term use it interchangeably with phma the uh >> magical religion that Alistister Crowley uh created more or less whole cloth. uh I am not uh part of that tradition at least not for the last 20 years but I I am a scientific illuminist so I try uh forewarnedly if that's a word to uh to uh discuss efficacy in terms of experimentation like I I I I sent it to you today. I just put out an article about my experiences with an magic in the mid 1990s and I had just taken over uh as lodgemaster of the chapter in Atlanta.

Uh I have no OTO affiliation today and do not encourage disclaimer but um >> in any case I had my predecessor had said repeatedly oh ankian magic is only for advanced adepts. So I waited until I you know got dubbed the night and all the stuff they do in the fifth degree of the OTO. Shh, don't tell anybody. But it's a big deal. I know because I later became an initiator.

Um but in any case um uh where that was concerned I always felt that uh you need control conditions in order to assess whether magic is just a psychological phenomenon or whether it's something that approaches uh the very phenomena that sigh researchers, I mean academic sigh researchers. Uh Dean Raiden, I believe, has been on your show. Um >> yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Um he uh has accumulated very convincing evidence that Sai does exist by if nothing else doing a uh uh what do they call it when they take a bunch of of unselected results from academic control tests and put them together. Um Meta analysis. >> Yeah. Okay. Metaanalysis follows something I do know a bit about which is probability theory and the probability that that something is happening in the case of psychokinesis um um uh ESP the whole range of sigh uh is astronomical literally even in the kind of terms that the web telescope has given us in a dazzly complex and large universe, it's still astronomically unlikely that this is any kind of coincidence.

So if the phenomena exist in those uh academic tests and magic is about uh as Crowley put it in one of his more lucid moments uh uh uh bringing reality into conformity with will. That sounds a lot like induced uh sigh. >> So it it seems to me and has for many many years that what people are experiencing it in terms of uh UFO phenomena, uh faith phenomena, ghosts, uh what have you. the entire range of quote fringe phenomena are different aspects of the same thing and I'm not sure whether I reached that point before I read Valet's second book which was um Passport to Meonia uh because his first book uh which was in galley proofs when I met him although being a punk kid with a bunch of other punk kids and a stellar euphology celebrity with us. Uh Jim Mosley, great friend of mine.

>> May he rest in peace. Um uh all that Valle remembered from that meeting was meeting with Mosley. We were apparently nutrinos, Jean Steinberg and uh Rick Hilberg and myself. So, and we were on our way to uh uh visit with Ray Balmer in uh way way up in Wisconsin. So, we stopped off in Chicago and met with uh uh Heinik and Fleet.

But he had not written anything to my knowledge up until that point about basically the integration of phenomena. That is UFO phenomena and occult slash uh uh metaphysical slash uh folkloric phenomena. And somewhere between that first book which is non-memorable that he co-wrote with his then wife and uh his second book he got religion as I so to speak uh and has stayed there uh I don't know if it was before him or after him but I think his book was a real revelation uh in terms of uh moving away from ye old extraterrestrial hypothesis, quote unquote, to uh a more metaphysical thing that you uh you hear about with people like Linda today, but which I've been churning out since the late 1960s. Uh, I think that wandered away from your question, but >> I try in magical experiments as documented in a document I sent you today about our working at Ulis Lodge. I waited until I was uh high level and actually middle level at that point uh because I had been given the heebie-jebies by my predecessor as lodgemaster that this is dangerous stuff.

So I did a control experiment. Uh James, our lodge Tyler and I tiled and locked the doors to our overpriced temple space. And uh well, it was a legacy from my predecessor. I think maybe a sadistic one, but in any case um I invited a group of people who knew very very little about an Nokian magic. And uh that isn't part of the Otto curriculum.

It's more Golden Dawn Aa and other more uh shall we say esoteric esoterica than the Otto is. And uh I wanted the people there to be basically for the most part first of all not selected by me just noted that they were not experienced with an oate magic had read Crowley's seinal work on the subject of vision of the voice and etc. uh you know Ed in item and uh uh I wanted to see if we could do a classical John Desque in working with all of the trappings but do it once a week for 30 weeks doing all 30 ethers after doing me doing an opening which was extensive. I mean it >> but for people who aren't initiated aethers are >> they're know what I think they are or >> what they really are they say they're magical realms I think they are something right out of uh current thinking in uh the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics they are brains b r a ne it's an unfortunate term because I have to spell it every time I say it it's not because I don't think brains although there may be some kind of correlation there but it is >> uh something >> yeah membranes and but they always call them brains in in the system I guess I would prefer membranes except that sounds like you know something that surrounds a fetus which is not necessarily the deal >> biological a little gross >> oh not look I was present for the birth of all three of my sons I assure you. Yeah, it is gross.

Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. I've had four kids myself and I agree. But gross and beautiful all at the same time.

Kind of a word. >> Well, miraculous. Yes. Uh >> yeah. >> Uh somewhat unpleasant in the in the actual happening.

Sure, if you're not a medical oriented person, but you know, hey, let's not go there. That has nothing to do with what we're talking about, I don't think. Except it was interesting when Brady McMerry, a D-Day veteran, I might add, was the head of the uh official incorporated OTO. Um, one of his requirements for I think the third degree was uh do something that will live beyond your own lifetime. And one of the things that satisfied that was having a child.

And I thought that was so unlike the later period in the Otto and was a very inspired point of view. So you know >> absolutely >> uh anyway where were we going with this? Anyway the experiment was impressive. >> Yeah, right. >> Yeah. And each time was a new revelation.

I mean the person that I uh that it was voluntary but uh these were not experienced people with one exception and the person that was doing the scrying that after doing the hoodoo of four different AA type rituals and the uh the call of the 30 ethers or brains which uh I did in an uh based largely on uh the surviving recording of uh Israel regardi doing uh uh the calls and Alistister Crowley doing the calls. Uh so I I knew at least their Golden Dawnesque interpretation of how this stuff was pronounced and that's what I used plus a little bit of my own intuition. So I did the call of the 30 ethers and then the call of the one we were doing that week of the 30 and did something like the laying on of hands with u uh with the scrier for that week and then at the end of the session I would read the corresponding uh uh chapter in the vision and the voice And none of these people had read it according to their own, you know, description. I didn't keep them in a bell jar or anything. >> Uh it was remarkably remarkably similar and similar to other people who have shared their accounts of going into that particular >> uh air or ether or brain membrane.

>> Yeah. And uh uh in addition to that there were mediumship type effects in the room. Uh the most uh quoted one from that these were these experiments were circa 1994 95. Uh actually I think they started in something like October 94 and bled over into 95. Uh we stuck to the 30 weeks except around Christmas.

I knew nobody was going to show up. So uh it was more like 33 weeks with a short uh vacation. Um I guess what I'm trying to get to is they were remarkably similar. Plus we had aorts in the mediumship style. That is the case that I wanted.

>> Right. >> Well, And of course something appearing out of nowhere. I'm just trying to >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry to use jargon.

I mean >> no you have a guest who is deep in the weeds. You have to have uh most of the time I would not even go there. But uh it happens. That was on my mind because I just posted that uh article and it sort of took me back 30 years. Yeah.

30 years. Jesus H Christ and the 12 dwarves. How about that? Uh >> uh don't don't get me started on vaping evil. It's going to kill you. >> I know.

I know. I >> But later it's not as bad as smoking cigarettes. >> That's exactly right. That's my >> not good for Well, if you're trying to quit, that's a better way, an interim step. Although I would recommend nicarette.

>> Yeah. Well, it's better for your lungs almost certainly. >> Yeah. >> Um, so >> and your heart. So how so did that have a a major impact on your view on what was going on with with magic or was that uh how did you emerge from that in terms of >> Well the first magical ritual I did was 10 years into having read Mystic Arts book society stuff from university books which I don't think had any university but like I said anything that wasn't nailed down under copyright they would uh reprint it.

So I got, you know, an education before I was even in high school uh in that stuff. Plus, eupfology doesn't have any equivalent of parasychology really. It's mostly the amateur hour. some of the field research notably by uh people like the um the Helder crew uh Greg and Dana and their company >> and I hear soon to be a season three >> with some stuff that I won't talk about but it's going to be a honey yes um although it's been on the burner for what three years Now, I asked Greg, he called me and I said, "Is this going to appear in my lifetime? Uh, I'm still hopeful. I'm doing my best, hitting the treadmill every day." But anyway, uh, some of the field research is very scientific, although not in a mainstream sort of way.

I mean, the nuts and bolts people, their idea of a scientific investigation of a field case is to get the witness to fill out a pre-existing form. Hello. I don't think the phenomena are really amenable to being uh reduced to a form. It's just a bad way to approach it. You really need to approach it as a kind of folklorist and then draw your own conclusions.

It's why my late friend Gray Barker got so much negative press because he was a folklorist, a degreed one I might add, and uh he approached the entire phenomena as a folklorist and wrote about it from a folkloric point of view. also a rather good writer for which he has been called a charlatan and a hoaxer and a blah blah blah blah blah. Um my approach is listen to what people say and as far as I've been able to see officially and otherwise the helier people approach it in that way. They follow the synchronicities wherever they go and that's the way field research should be done. There is no academic euphology.

So that's kind of left to I guess >> well it's interesting. I mean like I think that that has historically been true. There is a huge movement now among a lot of scientific organizations like uh uh to try and change that. Now I I don't know if they're doing it from the like you were talking about the folkloric point of view but the Society for UAP studies and a few of the others are groups with credentialed scientists trying to who are convinced the phenomena is real and a lot of them are now embracing the idea that there's that consciousness is somehow involved and that what we've typically considered the paranormal is a real aspect of it. U I I don't know if they're doing it according to the approach that you're talking about but they are trying to legitimize the science.

Uh I mean >> boy that gets into the uh I am not a conspiracy oriented person. In fact, I'm kind of against the whole concept because uh being Jewish myself, some of the conspiracy theories remind me a great deal of things that slouch over into anti-semitism. And >> of course, >> uh traditional uh cultic uh notions like the protocols of the elders. Yeah. And the blood liel which recently you have heard on US college campuses that frankly they should know better or at least their teachers should know better because those things are purely anti-semitic tropes.

Having used that disclaimer, let me say that >> uh this is not something that I'm inventing. It's something that goes back even before my time or when I was a wee banner uh just barely out of diapers. Uh the CIA was asked to investigate the uh defense ramifications of the UFO. Well then the flying saucer phenomenal UFO term had not come into being. >> Yeah.

>> After the 1952 July 1952 wave over restricted airspace in the US capital. >> It involved both radar cases and uh visual sightings including by pilots that had been scrambled. Uh this is decades before the >> Sorry to leap ahead of you. The Robertson panel is that where they were basically >> well I'm going there but that was January 53 I think or uh in in any case the Robertson panel which is online it was I guess FOIA uh Freedom of Information Act folks uh so you can look it up. they were tasked with are there security risks and of course this is you know the 1950s.

So what they were concerned about was well apparently official channels around DC and perhaps the eastern seabboard were flooded with flying saucer reports and official uh radar reports and the scrambling of jets which also reported visual sightings. Not so unusual now, but very unusual then. And apparently uh the defense establishment's opinion was if the uh this is 1950 so allow that folks uh if the Soviets chose to send bombers into the United States and bomb the eastern seabboard they could have done it unmolested during July 1952's wave of UFO cases in DC because all channels of communication were jammed with flying saucer data. So the CIA convened a panel in 1953 of experts. I don't know what would constitute an expert on flying saucers in that period.

Jay Allen Heinik was who I was sort of acquainted with uh um at that time was part of this panel and it was well-known scientists but I don't know that uh that would be a qualification for dealing with uh the phenomenon but it was sort of what the uh what the defense establishment was looking for which was is there any danger if there or among other things and I'll just restrict this to this one area uh that private UFO groups will be infiltrated by the uh uh Communist Party USA which even at that time was basically uh their newspaper their obituary section was longer than anything else in the the daily worker and uh >> uh But uh look, I I've had dealings with those people and it's not impossible that they would join a flying saucer group. Heaven knows that before that time you mentioned uh uh Jack Parsons, I think in the introduction, Jack uh the Parsonage, which was kind of the uh cradle of the uh modernday uh Otto Incorporated. uh it attracted it its share of anarchist communist uh uh uh whatever was betray >> in the 1940s that's that's who was there. So it's not inconceivable. It just is so 1950s to worry that the little five and 10 people and punk kids like me would become infiltrated by communists.

Uh was >> their answer was to infiltrate it themselves, right? I mean that's like gross thing about it. >> Now let me give you my one speculation that I can't prove but it and it doesn't originate with me. had originated with Ray Palmer uh who was a great mover and shaker in first generation eupfology. I'm second gen and uh we are a >> published Weird Tales, right? Is it Weird Tales and another magazine? >> No. Amazing stories and fantastic.

>> Yeah. >> And then Fate magazine and then a magazine he called Blind Saucers which >> okay >> is where I encountered him because it had a free ad section called Saucer Club News. And I met many of my fast friends then and now over half a century. uh Rick Hilberg, Jean Steinberg, Dave Halpern, who really if there are any of these projects that are looking into the synchronous nature of this stuff, he ought to be in it. He's an academic, retired academic now.

>> Yeah. >> But while our ranks have thinned there, we're still friends and we still we started out as punk teenagers doing what was then called the teen eupfology movement. But >> that's >> none of us were communists and none of us were particularly uh sympathetic to the uh what's that term? Useful idiots that uh could be uh caused a fog saucer panic. However, I think having done all these disclaimers because I don't want them at the door. Uh, live from Gitmo, it's Alan Greenfield.

Help. Get me out of here. I'm Jewish. These guys are all Arabs. Help.

Um. Um, I think NAP was a CIA front meant to divert attention in those days away from the actual phenomena and towards uh the nuts and bolts. Uh this is extraterrestrials visiting Earth from originally Mars, then Alpha Centuri. Then the further in time we go, the further out the universe until it gets to visitors from another galaxy, which anybody who knows anything about the universe go another galaxy? Are you effing serious? that that ain't happening unless we have an Einstein Rosen Bulski bridge as interpreted by other people, not the way they actually thought of it. But be that as it may, I think NIKAP, the clue is NIKAP was strictly into the they had a a doctrine uh which I found extremely frustrating when I was a member that UFOs could come close to the earth but they wouldn't have anything to do with any landing cases.

And I joined in the 1960s, early 1960s. >> Mhm. >> And that was the heyday of non-conte landing cases. >> I mean, you have the Sakuro incident. You have >> Exactly.

>> all kinds of things that they did didn't abide. And even the late contacty cases like John Reeves and uh uh Joe Simon, the pancake guy and and others. Uh apparently NYAP had no interest in it. So I looked into before me what NIKAP was like when it started. Well, the guy that founded it was a guy named T.

Townsen Brown, who shortly after that was replaced as director by Donnie Kho, who I later knew. And uh their board of directors was headed by Rear Admiral uh Rosco Hiller. >> Yeah. Yeah. Now, Rosco Hiller was back in the 40s, and I discussed this in one of my books, plug number one, people, Secrets of the Real Black Lodge Reveal.

This is all there, but you have to read the book. >> I've read it. I just read it. Uh, okay. Interestingly, >> uh uh no not uh it's a synchronicity if you just read it because I mean it's you know came out what a year ago >> under very difficult circumstances mostly for the publisher not for me.

>> Um I don't mercifully I don't have anything to do with the publishing. I just write you know so the first edition was uh uh not good. So, I insisted on a second edition, and that's the one that I would encourage people to read. It says on the cover with a little banner as I yelled at the publisher about this, second revised, heavily revised edition or something like that. Uh, and in in any case, Ellen Carter was the first head of the CIA.

So 10 years later, he's the chair of the board of Nigette and the whole board is peppered with uh uh military figures, some of them very disreputable types that uh was mentioning anti-semitism. I think George Van Horn Mosley may have been on the uh on the staff. George Van Horn Mosley was a notorious anti-semite. I know because his son who was not Jim Mosley was a close friend of mine for many many years and he told me tales about his dad who lived here in Atlanta by the way who was uh an affiliate of Gerald LK Smith who pe people who are fans of the history of anti-semitism in America will recognize him as the uh editor of the cross and the flag. the title tells it all.

So, uh, Nap had an unsaavory background. And then the reason I don't buy into any of the uh the current uh nuts and bolts based uh believing uh euphology people >> is because they are looking for today it's called um exposure revelation whatever that ain't going to happen that >> disclosure we >> we had the Same thing in the 1960s. >> Yeah. >> With um Project Blue Book was closed down theatrically. There was a rumor that it was going to the files were going to be burned.

So, I went to my senator, uh, at that time, Richard Russell, the head of the armed services committee in the Senate, and I went to him at home, and he got me enough of a security clearance that I could go and visit the files, which was a whole experience in itself, but I won't talk too much about it because the last time I did was on ancient aliens. I am neither an ancient nor alien. and all they could talk about was who I met while I was looking through the files. But in any case, um the files were not destroyed, but they fobed the whole project off on University of Colorado and a project to disclose the disclosure of that period. And it turns out the whole thing was a fraud and most of us bought into it.

In fact, our convention that year, 1967, the largest ever held before or since, I believe, uh, in New York City at the Commodore Hotel, uh, Jim Mosley sponsoring spent 12 grand, 1967 grand, I don't know what that would be today, but a lot more, uh, on on the convention and everybody who was anybody in euphology was there including Dr. pounded the head of the project and a person with a somewhat checkered background. And after they reached the conclusion that while some of the cases defy explanation, clearly this phenomenon is explainable in terms of natural phenomena, hoaxes, balloons and whatnot. Um I think that would happen again if you give these people agencies. So if they talk about disclosure, I walk away the same way I walked away from the extraterrestrial hypothesis and the Condan committee way back when when it came out that they uh they even referred to it as the trick.

This again is not Alan Greenfield's quotes. That's theirs. The trick will be to see I'm paraphrasing only slightly to seem like we are open-minded, reasonable researchers but are forced to conclude that there's nothing to it. Nothing to see here, folks. Go on.

And that's why I'm uh people would have to prove it to my satisfaction for me to say that there is the kind of academic research going on in euphology that goes on in parasychology which is not anything like wellunded in the way that it should be but has some uh private endowments notably at the University of Virginia uh in the perceptual studies department. Chester Carlson, who was the the the creator of the Xerox machine and the founder of Xerox, which at the time was like uh uh Elon Musk today, you know, uh it made him a very wealthy man. And he endowed a chair, the Chester Carlson chair at the University of Virginia for paranormal research. So that and several other projects around the world pretty much are not even touched by the government. The exception being uh Stanford Research Institute which at first was independent and then taken over by uh I think the CIA and maybe DARPA.

I'm not sure. Um, it's been a while since I've uh tread those waters, but the original people that were involved were um there's a book I think the how the hippies changed physics which I recommend. I'm probably mangling the title slightly, but these guys basically were uh 1960s hippies who were degreged uh advanced degreed physicists and who changed the face of physics from the uh from the 1930s models to those that have shown up with uh taking things like uh Wheeler and other uh many worlds interpreters seriously and uh I mean they've had their own difficulties. Some of them are still around but it did change the face of physics and I think that that is where you should look look to them and their immediate successors. Don't look to the uh people that uh are NASA types.

Look to people who regard the ETH as a belief system and a one that has been around at least since the 1940s and has produced nothing. Nada. Um even though there are a few people pioneers is one, Carl Young who was a member of NACA by the way the end of his life uh was another who thought that the phenomena plural were uh part of a much bigger picture which is where I've been since I first published Ultimate Horizon's newsletter in the late 1960s. much to the chagrin of my fellow eupfologists and when I became a recognizable person in occultism, not just to the chagrin, but to the anger of the occultists because never the twain shall meet for reasons best known to them. I think it's that doesn't involve a conspiracy.

It involves turf wars, something going on right now. you're left or right, you're not American anymore. It happened once before. It was called the Civil War, I believe. >> My history fuzzy.

>> Uh inching closer and closer. Um but that is not the topic of the day. Uh I >> another day, >> another day, another lots of days probably. Um John Ke >> I adore John Keelsborg. Uh and uh did you know him? Yes, I knew him very well.

>> Uh, did your the emer and >> ye shall receive? >> There you go. But did your the emergence of your ultraterrestrial kind of hypothesis um have anything to do with his own thinking or were you both sort of arising on separate uh you know thought streams? >> Well, let me tell you my John Ke story uh if we've got the time for that. >> Oh, we do. Yeah, we do. I want to hear it.

Um, in in the days when long-distance phone calls were very extensios, um, uh, Jim Mosley was quite wealthy. His dad and his mom were both wealthy people. His dad was a US Army general, retired at the time that Jim came into it, and his mother owned a steamship company. uh he was wealthy and while I am a poor man uh four marriages and many many opportunities later uh my father was a prominent and wealthy man as well. So we talked long distance all the time late at night uh much to my dad's uh uh discomfort.

But uh uh in any case, somewhere around 1965, Mosley started calling me and he could talk about nothing but he met this guy, John Ke. Now, every year I and some of the other mostly uh New York area people, but you know, from uh from Cleveland, one of our hubs in Philadelphia and blah blah blah. Uh they would come to New York for a three-day party ending on New Year's Eve. So Mosley said to me, "You've got to meet this guy." Mosley was not easily impressed. M >> I said, "What guy?" John Keel.

He hasn't published anything on UFOs yet, but he's working on a book and he is really on top of this. When you come for New Year's this year, I'm going to bring him and you'll see what a fantastic person he is. So that was a call three hours and then another call and another call all the way up to you know uh December. So I thought well I hope this is some because Mosley wasn't impressed with anybody that wasn't one time I was with him at a convention and Margaret me walks through and he's he was an autograph hunter from his teens. She said, "Margaret me." And he runs out of the convention and follows her up the block as she exits the convention.

And I followed him to see what the hell was going on. Uh he wasn't easily impressed because we ran past Kenneth Arnold who was standing there. You know, people that would matter except Mosley was first generation. So, you know, Ray Palmer was there, Jenna Arnold was there, and I was there shuffled off to a side route, much to my uh dis displeasure and that of uh my then wife who had said, "See, I'm a somebody." I was a teenager who thought that he uh uh because the teen eupfologists were within our little bubble of somebody. Anyway, Mosley was keel keel he keel he ke and so I read Jadu his 1950s book and I started to see his stuff in the uh I use the term advisedly we're not talking about playboy let alone house or you know the other one uh but he wrote for the men's magazines of the saga Argus Y uh magazines of that sort.

Their key keyynotes were >> man stranded on an island of lost sex starved women, you know. So he wrote for them and I eventually actually he wrote for Playboy. I don't know if that was before or after. Uh, I do know that uh uh some of my friends wound up in the late60s during the uh UFO Interesting that preceded the Condan Report >> uh made it onto the New York Times bestseller list. Frank Edwards, an interesting person in person.

Um, and uh, he had the it may still be the only New York Times best seller for back when that really mattered for months. Uh, flying also serious business. >> Uh, which is a standard UFO book. >> Yeah. >> Um, so getting back to Ke.

So he walks into the room and with Mosley and, uh, I don't remember who was there. I think Kim Beckley. uh uh Jean Steinberg, myself uh uh Mosley and Keel and a few others. Uh I think that was the year we called Stan Lee and invited him. He hung up on us or something.

Anyway, so uh comic book guy, big shot in those days, >> Marvel Universe. >> Yeah. multiverse, dare I say, >> I'm not, you know, I I outgrew that at 20, which is late, but uh if you're young at heart anyway, so thank you. You must be old enough to appreciate the song. It's a Sinatra song.

That's Frank Sinatra. He was a singer >> and actor and friend of the mob. >> Exactly. I'll get you a job that they can't refuse. Um, so >> you mean >> after we did our usual inane uh comments and much alcohol flowed >> that was pre-drug by a year in our circle.

By the way, I've never been drugging at all. Period. Um although many others have fallen by the wayside. Uh Jim among them uh he never fell by the wayside but he was uh indulgent and that that created many incidents of mayhem and eupfology but that was later. Ke starts talking and just his manner talking was uh magical and I immediately thought this guy's got something on the ball.

Even though Jim had told me uh he has a new book out, this was during the uh Batman Adam West TV craze. He did a book basically along those lines. which was what everybody was talking about. In fact, I remember uh may have been that same trip, Jean Steyberg and I went to some theater in Midtown Manhattan and spent the night watching a 1940s Batman serial all the way through its 12 or 15 episodes, I don't know, which uh took some some kind of stamina. Uh, and Jean explained to me that that's how he got out of the draft by sitting in theaters all night till his eyes were any I won't go there.

It was a long time ago. It was a different war. It was a different world. So I thought this guy is going to do really something. And then I began corresponding with Keel had this much correspondence which during my uh student uh graduate post-graduate days in uh southern Arizona I uh had to leave and lost.

Fortunately, other people were having extensive. This is when correspondence pre- internet. This is when correspondence was on paper and typed and I lost mine because uh let's put it this way a lawyer had advised you take your son and put a state line between you and your ex which I did. Uh uh and uh it was a wise thing to do but I had to leave a lot and that was among the things I left. However, not too long after that, November 1967, I remember this uh quite well, I talked my dad into funding.

We had a little lo, it wasn't little actually, it's quite big, local uh flying saucer group called Civilian Saucer Intelligence Agency. Uh the name was modeled on uh Civilian Saucer Intelligence of New York, a long gone but a prestigious local UFO group back in the day. Um I talked my dad into sponsoring Keel to come down and give us a talk. So in November 1967, my father flew him in and he gave a talk and it was a spellb blinder. For many years, I I had the tape of that talk and I wish I still had it, but it was real tore >> and while I preserved a lot of stuff from that period by transferring it first to cassette.

What am I going to play that on now? and then to digital which you know probably will become obsolete in a in a shortly or the sun will >> you know the new new separate and new >> yeah I've thrown away you know a film 8 millimeter film and then we won't go there it's a sad story anyway his talk was a spellbinder and I I remember a turn of phrase tra during that talk that shows a lot about John Ke as a speaker. He said and he was he was going through this chronological dating of strange phenomena that he was putting together even though most of it had nothing to do with sightings of lights in the sky. And so he said in Virginia a phone booth blew up and at the same time at that exact moment. The lights went out at the UN in New York and through the audience there was oh ah including me I thought and then later you know I listened to the tape of this many times I thought yeah what's one got to do with the other but Ke could put it together and I don't want that to be uh any kind of put down of him I only have one put down two putdowns of of gun. One was he was there for several days, came over to my house, unscrewed the uh receiver of my phone to check it for bugs, uh which I thought was a very peculiar uh entry.

But um I took him to dinner at what was then the tallest building in Atlanta, which had a rotating restaurant on the top of it, which was called the Flying Saucer Restaurant. I thought it was good touch, expensive restaurant. My dad paid for it, of course. Uh and we're going around and I'm basically putting on the dog for this uh celebrity. I think uh uh either uh uh Operation Trojan Horse had come out by then or it was about to come out.

Ke told me he said it was the book was originally over a thousand pages but they made me cut it down. It was still for a UFO book if you want to call it that. Very long. And I believe the next two books that he brought out were basically the rest of the stuff from Operation Trojan Horse. Um anyway, so we're having lunch at this restaurant and I thought, well, I do know how to snow them or whatever my 1967 version of Egoboo was.

and he said, "You know, I really don't like eating very much." Now, I'm a southern gentleman among other things. >> And I thought, "Oh, what poor taste." Well, I'm not going to say anything, but anyway. So, that was a personal quibble. Uh in any case, uh we had courtesy of my dad a return ticket uh to New York, but uh uh so I said, "Well, when when is your flight?" He said, "Actually, I've rented a car, Allan, and I'm going to take the car up through West Virginia and see what all of this stuff going on in West Virginia uh is going on because there the Moth Man stuff had been I guess the year before in a long time, but uh uh and he had been there and he was going again." And I thought, well, I'd have flown to New York and maybe gone to West Virginia later, but you know, that's his choice. And he did.

And his experiences in West Virginia are legendary. And out of them came his book, which became a movie. And unlike most movies about flying saucers, really, although very different from the book, captures the spirit that was going on during the Moth Man and Men in Black and Flying Saucer uh experiences in West Virginia, which are still ongoing, but they've migrated into Kentucky. and then uh as uh uh has been documented in phantoms and monsters uh into Illinois mostly around O'Hare airport in Chicago one airport I won't land at remembering the silver bridge and uh uh even into Indiana so it's kind of become a spread out phenomenon then it was confined to West Virginia and basically to the Ohio River uh around the original sighting in the TNT area, which was, as Gay Barker pointed out, a uh makeout area for the kids of that of that time, which Barker thought was, as he always put it, and so did Jim Mosley, his they were close friends, sex and saucers, it goes together, and uh being a an oultist of the sexual magic school. I dig it.

In fact, uh, uh, Keel's book on the, uh, Mo Man prophecies, as he called it, uh, also the name of the movie. We usually change that. Um, is factual in the sense that Saga and True and Argusy were factual. I mean, it was in that style, which was his brand of journalism. >> It also I do Uh to my own knowledge, some of the stuff that happened to him were pranks played by Gray Barker because Gray was a prankster and he did not like people who were I'd say who didn't like food who were uh somewhat pretentious.

In any case, most of what Keel got was legitimate and he reported. But I always say if you read the Moth Man Prophecies, also read Gray's book on the same subject done at the same time, The Silver Bridge. A much misunderstood book, but nevertheless closer to the uh to use Jim Mosley's autobiography term, dangerously close to the truth. And of course, Keiel had later experiences in uh largely Long Island and then uh in New Jersey and came up with the notion of silent contact each he did on balance. I don't know that he as a person did have a stick up his during air but as a reporter he was a superb person and I think his best remembered as that.

um >> and kind of died in obscurity and has been mostly appreciated by fans of Valle and uh the people who are as you mentioned in the opening, people like Leenda or myself who talk about the crosscurrent uh view of phenomena as opposed to the strictly nuts and bolts flying saucers from Alpha Centauri. type thing which has gone nowhere and probably is just totally wrong. >> So I want to get into that a little bit. uh the the crosscurrent thing that you're talking about. Um and one of the things that you know uh Keel was famous for positing was that the UFO phenomenon and phenomena that's related to that is sort of um the result potentially of a of an ultraterrestrial kind of intelligence.

Um, and you talk about that in the in the the couple of books that I've read on uh of yours where you uh basically kind of at times equate it with the Black Lodge um and or say that like um both the Black Lodge and the White Lodge are under maybe influence from different aspects of these intelligences. One is seeking to sort of guide us and then one is seeking to thwart us. Um and the timelines that you use in your books are really interesting because it talks about um you know Iwas and Lamb, but then also uh um the uh Tibetan masters of Levatsky, how they may be um have been just high achieving humans, but maybe potentially there was some aspect of it that was influenced by ultraterrestrials as well. So I mean I guess what I'm asking is what do you think is going on? uh with these ultraterrestrial intelligences and why are they sort of molesting human development and what's the point there? Do you think you've come to any conclusions about that in all your research and experience? >> Yeah. And I should say those are my conclusions but they are provisional like everything with me.

I never say my belief is >> okay. I say my current inclination is to think the following. >> Yeah. >> Uh I never use the term the white lodge or the great white brotherhood. Sounds too much like the clan.

I try to avoid that, you know. I mean in this part of the country, >> the third order, that's another way to put it, right? >> Well, yeah. the third order, the secret chiefs, uh the masters, the theosophical masters, um uh the nine unknown, which there's not nine of them. The lid vnix is in, uh uh coalism, uh lammed vav, uh 35 in Hebrew, and that's supposed to be the 35 sages for which the world is not destroyed. Blah blah blah.

It's all talking about the following phenomenon in most magical orders, not including the one I was affiliated with, but like the Golden Dawn, the AA, and to a lesser extent uh the Hermitic Brotherhood of Light, now the Celestial Logic series, my publisher, and uh well, the imprint of my publisher that I publish Um they all profess that if you follow their graded initiatory system while as a human being you can in theory attain in a lifetime to the first and second order. The third order is for the most part non-corquium. That is for another term theosophists use and I guess I should include the theosophical society and at least in its original construction u in that those group of follow this group and you will ascend and the term ascended masters was used. Well, I'm not, you know, certain on that. uh my one time friend Paul Johnson.

We had some differences on the hermetic brotherhood of light. uh namely he and his colleagues came out with a book that I helped on at the same time as my book on the subject came out and uh I think their book was you know under a legitimate legitimate impromaturer of I don't know uh state university of New York I think it was uh and mine was uh a publisher in Sweden who had Satanist associations. He's still around, so I'm not going to go there. I'm grateful for the publication, but I have not and never have been a Satanist, nor do I recommend that particular. Um, my perception is you can't really be in the third order without ascending.

that is becoming non-corporeal, hence immortal, hence something beyond human. But there seem to be two types, and I've met them all in my occult uh activities. people who basically have not that they're not in favor of their own personal advancement but have the equivalent of what in uh Buddhist practice would be called taking the uh oath of the body sata which is to say having attained unto the ability to ascend into the highest this realm called moaksha in uh Hinduism and uh nirvana much misunderstood in Buddhism instead of ascending that far you remain as a non-corporeial presence as a body sata to guide all sentient beings to a state of Buddhahood before you attain unto that yourself in the west that is called the oath of the abyss and basically that's where you find the division. those who have sinned that far and are no longer corporeal who will not take the oath of the abyss but instead uh and you usually can see them in the first order let alone the second order who become power hungry and that's so common in occult orders that they enjoy being the masters of the second order blah blah blah blah that they won't go beyond they will try to keep others from ascending. You see that in practice uh in the people that run these orders and I think I use the term advisedly.

They do run them usually advise them for life. Um those become essentially the denison of the black lodge. Those who have the equivalent of intention to become a body sappa and who have attained beyond the abyss uh which is you have to go into cababalistic tree of life symbolism to get what that's all about. It's a very dangerous time where you have to renounce all that has gone before and take the risk of attaining unto the suppernels. Very very exalted state.

No guarantee that you get there. Uh uh Casta called it flying past the evil. All the same thing just a different uh >> so both the black ledge and the white ledge are former hum or humans or people who have moved on souls that have moved on. >> They are beings that have moved on. I don't know if souls is the right word.

Maybe >> okay >> souls would be beyond them. Uh uh sort of beings that are from the other membranes you know or beings that transcend all the membranes. I don't know. I'm not proving to that. But uh certainly beyond human and because they are immortal and because they are outside of space and time uh they are very influential in human affairs.

The Black Lodge's interest is to seem to be a place to recruit, but also their ultimate goal is to not have people behind them uh incarnate human beings that can become rivals to them. So they accumulate wealth. They use that wealth to hire incarnate human beings low and high including mafiosi types. The Russian mafio uh appropo of the Russian mafia uh although you have that in this country too. people who are uh in the pay of mercenary societies.

In other words, who are rolling the headless Thompson gunner types who are willing to uh uh to fight for money. >> Uh an honorable profession in the past, but doesn't really particularly attract people that were rejected by the police academy basically. >> Yeah. uh or who got uh drumed out of grad school or you know uh pick pick your poison. >> Um and also just people who are uh to borrow a term clockwork on just the drooies.

Uh, you may be seeing that on your TV sets right now if you ever watch TV or even on Tik Tok, which I don't watch because I don't like the Chinese Communist Party very much and think they have ulterior motives. >> Uh, >> but um, suffice to say this, the Black Lodge is bad news. I've only had one encounter with an a human agent Black Lodge. And I've told this story so many times. I'm not going to repeat it here except to say the guy tried to subvert the lodge I was a member of at the time.

I challenged him. showed up at this I'm not a neopagan uh either, but uh uh he showed up at this uh regionwide neopagan gathering uh and basically he gave me both a signal that he was in control of things and that he could kill me uh using something that would have made Lacricia Boura crowd. Literally a ring with a a needle on the inside of it and then holding out his hand and playing a southern gentleman. Even though I knew what he was, I took his hand and this is a very condensed version of a long story. I thought I'm dead because he uh turned out I'm not dead as as you might have guessed at this point, but uh uh I spent the next couple of hours waiting for the axe to fall.

>> Yeah. >> And uh as I thought about it, I realized this was a warning. we can get you anytime we want. And indeed, uh, uh, my first book publisher, Illuminate Press, the, uh, the guy who gave me my first break to move from being a writer for Fanzines to an author, you know, with uh, uh, uh, Ron Bonds was murdered. Uh, one of his prominent writers, a friend of mine, Jim Keith, as far as I can tell, was murdered.

Unless you believe you can die of a sprained ankle uh at uh Burning Man. Uh that's uh and uh even uh a street person in Atlanta who was also a very influential founder of the uh chaos movement seems to have been murdered as well. And there may be others that I just don't know about. But they mean business. And why they haven't gotten me, I don't know.

Maybe I've got friends in high places. Although uh Carrie Thornley, my strange acquaintance once bragged that he wasn't being killed by the uh Hashid assassins because he was protected by what he called the Switzers which I would uh uh say is the uh the Swiss Guard who are in fact a mercenary Swiss organization going back to uh early medieval times, I believe, and uh who are to this day the uh the formal guards of the uh of the papacy uh in Rome. Uh even though Rome is not in Switzerland, the last I heard, but uh that's what mercenaries do. And uh uh I don't know where I was going with that. It's a dangerous game.

And >> yeah, >> you can read about let me let me give a proviso. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> The proviso is when I wrote secret cipher the euthanauts, my first book that Ron Bonds paid the ultimate price for as my publisher. Um I was dealing with a very complex code found in the sacred book for theomites which I think is actually the only reason the book was written uh liberal legus the book of the law which wasn't decoded by Crowley or any of his immediate followers was decoded by uh a guy named Jim Lee in England and when it came my way I discovered that it was applicable to any of the strange names and uh words that show up in occultism and eupfology and uh to make a long story short uh if you look if you read the complete secret site for the euphon which is the first two volumes uh I got so much flack from my uh leader in the Otto between book one and book two there were 10 years and then eventually my present publisher put them out together uh for which I am eternally grateful but the third book in the trilogy didn't come up out until last year the year before I forget the Black Lodge book and I think the Black Lodge book while it can be read standalone it's more profitably read by understanding the cipher that I use as a basis for jumping off into a more speculative area in Secrets of the Real Black Lodge Review.

So, I mean, I've written other books, lots of them, and I've got a new one in the works, has no title yet, and I may or may not sell it. You know, I that's not up to me. Um, >> we'll have links and stuff in the description so people can find your work. And >> if you read the complete secret site for which I think is the cheap version is in Kendall and the hard copy which I'm old copy is the only way I can read it. Uh, uh, reading online has got to be, you know, one page and I'm done.

uh because it's just not, you know, not what I grew up with. But Gen Y and Z know no books whatsoever. And I'm not going to call Gen Z ignorant, but draw your own conclusions. Anyway, uh you should read uh The Complete Secret Side of the Euphonauts before you read the Black Lodge book, unless you want to just cut to the chase and not know the basis on which I reached the point of uh writing what was originally intended to be a book about the secret sheets of the Third Order, the discarnate beings, what you originally call the White Lodge, which that was a a term and it's still current with some people, but uh I I prefer the secret sheets of the third order or the masters or you know any of those other terms to >> from people with bed sheets over their head. >> Yes.

And I I I applaud that uh motivation. It's interesting for me because I went through a phase where I read um some some theosophy um you know uh Levatzky and Alice Bailey and those folks and uh uh I was intrigued by what I read about these the hidden masters you know like they basically these Tibetan personalities that were uh they would uh have a few visionary contacts within that organization that they would appear to communicate with uh meet in um the uh atheric plane. Um, and uh, your uh, the breaking of the code that you're talking about, which if people haven't seen Helier, um, they do a pretty go pretty good job of explaining it, but basically you take those names and names of all the contacties from the 40s and 50s, um, you know, everything that seems so patently like trit if you're uh, just silly names, but they >> Maharaja Nacha is my favorite. >> Yeah, >> Maharaja Nacha. And there's like and I mean there's like >> these weird names, but they uh they if you there's a numerical cipher that you can use that's based on the book of the law by Alistister Crowley and the numbers that amount to >> by I was according to Alistister Crowley a prayer human intelligence chneled by Alistister Crowley in 1904 if you believe that.

>> Yeah. And uh so the the words that match um the uh numeric amounts um seem to all have synchronistic like uh meanings to them and they seem to reinforce each other and give you a a broader sense of the identity of the thing that you're looking up. So if you're, you know, looking up a particular word and it matches several words from the book of the law, then that gives you a a sense of like kind of its its orientation in this like magical um system. And it's really really uh intriguing and fascinating and I think hints at that bridge that we were talking about in the beginning between the occult and eupfology. Like there's no reason why these euphological names uh which on the surface have nothing to do with magic should be so resonant um when compared to the book of the law but they are and it's repeated and it's just uh absolutely fascinating.

My question to you though is like you talked about um you know IWAS this prader human intelligence um and that's versus I would say or in addition to these um ascended human personalities whether they're good or bad what role are they playing and how do they figure into the UFO phenomenon do you think >> I think I was an ascended master >> okay okay so he is a former human personality that's gone on and then okay >> I think Cru's Well, his original assessment of his own experience was it was an example of automatic writing. I have that in his own handwriting. So, you know, that's >> uh I mean his followers today are crypto religious or maybe religious in fairness. >> Yeah. Although you know in any case >> well over time he may evolve to be the next you know I mean time has a way of creating gods of men right I mean >> yeah well yeah among a few thousand people maybe but I think uh >> uh let's put it this way the entirety of the we'll call it the occult community cruian and nonrollian would be worldwide maybe a few tens of thousands of people.

>> There are eight or nine billion people on this planet. >> Sure. >> Half of them in China and England. So you know uh the impact of uh the crow the crowley influence let alone of his what they call his holy book and I call the code book. I think the whole book is about the code which in the book it says you will never decode this.

time. Uh, >> and he didn't his magical child did, right? Isn't it? >> Uh, just the first three first three and he never followed up on it. Frederick Aod is a whole subject for a whole program. He was, let's put it this way. Crawley was not a man who I would have wanted to have lunch with.

Uh, his magical child, who he disowned eventually, as magical children will be. uh trader AOD a Canadian from Vancouver who lived and died in Vancouver. Um uh was a guy I would gladly have had dinner. >> Speaking of the of the >> unless John Ke had joined us in which sorry >> but so you want some synchronicities about this conversation. Um, interestingly, uh, one of my the group of my closest friends and supporters around the show, um, are centered in BC, um, in Vancouver and also on Vancouver Island.

Um, so that's interesting that that is where, uh, he was from. But then also um as I was reading your book, there was uh um one uh there's an organization where you talk about uh uh sort of the rival to I think it was Crowley uh or at least he was approaching magic from a different place and he uh ends up uh what's it called? Borderlands uh Borderlands Institute or uh something like that. >> Borderlands Sciences Research. >> Yeah. >> Association originally.

Now it's Boral and Sciences Research Foundation because it's >> basically an archival thing now I think. >> Yeah. And you're right. And they are in my hometown. >> They are here in this city with me today.

I've actually met the guy who is uh managing the uh the collection. And I guess what they most >> what mostly what they do is they just respond to requests for various back issues or articles that he has access to. and he'll um >> but he was channeling an intelligence too, right? There was a group of those guys and they were channeling a potentially positive um spiritual force or energy or former human. But again, I want to make a point here like one of the things that I've it's come up repeatedly in this show with like uh Jeff Krele and others uh as we talk about this even Whitley Strieber um that the phenomena is us that somehow it's a reflection of us that it's like it may be us in the future it may be us in the past but if your idea that what we're encountering as the alien is basically ascended versions of us or versions of us that have reached a level of being that is beyond are human level and they are uh busy trying to kind of affect uh the evolution of the species for various reasons. Um that fits with that uh that whole idea that um the reason why the alien seems so familiar to us is because it is actually us just former personalities who've since ascended.

Um it just seems elegant to me in a in a interesting way. I think in in one sense that has to be true because all things are related to all other things and all things are a composite of the whole as it manifests in individual forms. >> Mhm. Having said that though I do think that other heirs other brains maybe an infinite number exist and they're they have intention that may be apart from our own awareness even at a subliminal level. Like the whole uh point of the uh uh path is supposedly uh the knowledge and conversation of the holy guardian angel which is variously described as a supernatural being or as one's own unconscious or uh superconscious or whatever.

I think all of those things can be true simultaneously and I think they are. I think we overthink these things trying to come up with something that we probably cannot come up with. We can go only so far and say follow the synchronicities and draw your own conclusions. But there are limitations on what human beings corporeal human beings can know and maybe even I don't know ascended masters. I'm not ascended and I'm not a master so I don't know but uh from the standpoint of cosmological time uh we've existed about uh a nanocond.

If we go to uh geological time we've existed like five minutes. If we go to biological time, we just dropped out of the trees, you know. So the notion that we are capable of really understanding the phenomenon I think uh I've never met it but your uh associate Whitley Striber I think he has it correct at least early on uh in communion where the phenomenon warps in front of him and uh I believe he says to the phenomenon you're never going to show me your true faith face and it's like that the answer is nope. And maybe it's because you can't you know the the story of Moses on uh Sinai or Mount Seir depending on which which chapter of the Bible you're looking at is uh God's I uh Moses says to God uh I I want to see you and God says no because no one can see the face of God and live. So, I tell you what, I'm paraphrasing a lot here.

>> Tell you what, I'll walk by you >> anthropomorphically and you can see me moving away. That way, you'll survive long enough to give the 15 Whoops. 10 commandments for the people. A little Mel Brooks. >> Mel Brooks there.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I am a disciple of the 99year-old man. And I also maintain if you don't have a good sense of humor, stay away from this stuff. It'll tell you one way or another.

>> Yeah. Well, it's interesting to me. I mean, I think that like if it may never intend to show us it its true face, its whole purpose, if there is a singular purpose for the phenomenon, maybe just to elicit a certain reaction or certain development in our species. And whether or not that's happening, uh I don't know. Are you one who ascribes to that idea that the human consciousness evolves over time and that we may be um you know reaching new psychic uh you know uh spheres for ourselves as we move forward through the aon or is that um kind of just uh wishful thinking? >> No, it's not wishful thinking, but I think it's a flawed understanding of how evolution works.

Um, evolution works in very very slow steps and then sudden steps. And I I don't know that human beings are going to evolve much more than they are now for the simple reason that look at this. We have all sorts of prosthetic things that we do now to make those that would have gotten eaten by the dinosaurs or the wild bison or whatever was eating the the Neanderthalss um to keep us alive into our reproductive years. >> Ergo, I think we may have evolved about as far as we're going to. Um, we may have minor glitches.

Certainly, we're uh getting a lot of uh cosmic ray uh and uh uh solar ray uh input which is going through our flames R A IS right now. But whether that's going to uh like uh let me get gory for a moment here. Um if I may >> please. >> There is a certain sense in which I think cancers are an attempt in nature to evolve. It's a flawed attempt that will kill us before we evolve.

But if we develop a universal cure for cancer, which God knows I hope we do, >> um although it has eluded us so far, what effect is that going to have on biological evolution? In other words, if we kill off the uh uh the cancer cells, are we not also going to kill off all cells that are uh actually going to be evolutionary? Because we know that most mutations are negative. Mhm. >> If a positive mutation is mixed into the sauce somewhere along the line, are we not probably going to be killing that off just in the process? It it uh may be that evolution is moving towards uh artificial intelligence, but that may have more limitations than the current crop of uh of AI advocates think. Um And I would recommend uh uh some of the uh critical books on the uh uh on the evolution evolutionary limitations of uh AI as it exists now. I mean, for example, half or more of the things I see on YouTube are AI generated.

How do I know that? Do I have an inside track on? No, I don't. But I can always tell. Well, maybe not always because if I have it, you know, if it passes the Allen Greenfield touring test, so to speak, uh, then I I think I know it. But there may be some that I don't know. You know, >> it may be that you, for example, are not actually there with the artificial fire burning in the background.

>> Yeah, >> I'm a bot. >> It may it may be that I'm not here. But how are we going to know that? Well, one of the things that happens, and I don't want to give away secrets because they can, you know, uh, adjust it. I don't think that artificial intelligence really mimics human intelligence because I think human intelligence is holistic and artificial intelligence is plottingly on off a b uh linear >> and even though you can simulate human voices very impressively It isn't thus far, nor do I expect to be conscious that it is emulating human intelligence. Is it dangerous? Yes.

Is it interesting? Absolutely. But is it uh uh something that we would expect to evolve into Colossus, the Forbidden Project, old I recommend it. uh take over the world or uh what was the movie about nuclear war? The Whopper. Uh uh war games. >> Oh yeah.

Yeah. War games. I love that movie. >> Yeah. The only way to win is not to play.

You know, the only way to win is to sneak it in on drones. But I'm not going to tell the machine. They called it the whopper. Uh, and I would rather have the two guys with sidearms standing far apart being the last link in the chain of nuclear launch. And hope to God that that is true in China as well.

Uh, uh, I must can I do my 32 nuclear war thing having grown up in the age where we were expecting one? Sure. >> Nuclear weapons are so so horrific. It seems to me that since August 9th, 1945, the day Nagasaki was incinerated, no nuclear weapon has been used in anger since then. That is a long time for rival nations to have many many nuclear weapons and to hesitate to use them to the point of they have not been used since World War II. Maybe the horrific quality of it is such that even in World War II, uh poison gas was not used on the battlefield because even the Nazis uh the senior leadership had been the grunts in World War I and were deathly afraid of using poison gas.

Except of course on my folks, but that's a whole different story. that was under controlled conditions. >> Well, that brings me to a question and I mean this is probably the last question we have, but it's an important one. >> No, no, IT'S ONLY BEEN HALF AN HOUR, IT SEEMS. >> YEAH, it's time flies.

Uh but you mentioned in your books the uh Nazi regime and its roots in the occult and the thuly society and uh those sorts of things and how there may have been contact with a with an intelligence that sort of uh you know helped shape that uh mission forward and pushed it toward negative ends. I wonder, do you think that that kind of force, that kind of negative manipulation from uh the astral plane or the atheric plane or whatever um is possible today? And if it is, what defenses do we have as human beings to um prevent that kind of manipulation? Because I look around the world today and I see people who I think may be under active manipulation. Frankly, >> uh that's a very interesting question. I think that what is publicly available would be the experiments which uh often derided uh at Stanford Research Institute first among as I mentioned earlier the the hippies who say physics >> uh they're not hippies now they're older than me and that >> all put off I think right >> I am older than God so >> Russell Tar maybe >> yeah Russell Tar is Yeah, >> Russell Tar seems to think that I am a a crazy left winger and that is not what I am. But I'm not crazy and I'm not a left winger, but uh uh but I play one on television.

>> That's exactly podcast. >> Okay. Um I don't know where I was going with that. I got off on the Mel Brooks. >> Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I was saying that >> Oh, yeah. Okay. So, the stuff that they were doing at Stanford was intended uh when it was taken over by the CIA to be able to do uh farreach, that is to do espionage. and they found some talented people who were able to do some very very substantial things.

That's where the curtain on publicly available information is drawn because people like Russell and like you know his generation of physicists were not particularly uh biased towards secrecy. I have the following take and I probably am only going to give you the very abbreviated version. If you ever want to have me back, I'll be glad to talk about it. >> Okay. But I think it is a very dangerous game to think that what eupfology, let alone the other aspects of this, is all about is exposing the secret pickled aliens in Area 51.

No, that's not what Area 51 is. It's a place where they develop the next gen and next nextG weapons that have kept us out of a nuclear war. So, I don't know what they're doing there or in Area 52, which also rarely gets mentioned, which I've been by, but not in. Uh, it's very irradiated, I think. Um, I think that there is a great deal that DARPA and the CIA and others that are often derided by people who seem to have an agenda that allows them to think, "Oh, if we would just disarm, everyone would love us." Except maybe the Israelis, you know, uh, but I think that that is very dangerous [ __ ] aided and abetted by people who don't mean us well.

maybe even aided and abetted by the Black Lodge who would love to see us come to blows in a civil war or even and preferably a nuclear war since they've been waiting since the younger dus for the sun to go uh thermonuclear and fry us all which being immortal and outside of space and time would be ideal for the Black Lodge and a total tragedy. for the uh secret chiefs to say say nothing of us mortals except end of rant. The mass has ended. Go in peace. >> Well, that's all I've got for you.

Thank you for fascinating why >> that's all you've got. What is the secret of immortality? >> Well, yeah. What do you do? I mean, how do you how do you get there? >> Um, >> drink your oval tea, right? one step at a time. >> The way a man walks to hell. >> Yeah.

And study your uh your good magic books. It sounds like >> uh No, you're not going to get immortality for my maybe immortality for my name, but you know, the only immortality that I acknowledge is something supernatural. It's very interesting that most of my areas of interest are pretty bizarre by general standards. But my actual religious beliefs are rather conservative reformed Judaism. It's uh lifetime.

You know, that's where I've always been and that's where I still haven't. >> Yeah. >> Nothing. >> Well, I think that's that's interesting. I've had discussions with folks recently about uh the um the power of the path that you inherit and whether or not that leads to God.

Uh I think that a lot of religions can have a an earnest path and they have the abuses that occur in any human endeavor. In other words, if you you can find your way to God using almost any religious path that you've inherited as long as you stick to the earnest principles that are involved in it and uh you know are have integrity. Um you can also get off the path uh in any of these things. It's so you don't have to change religions in order to find a holy way to exist. I don't think >> um the uh head of the Golden Dawn uh uh as McGregor Matthers >> uh said once I think very sage observation that he thought that the flaw in some of the classical magical texts was that they came from religious turncoats.

that is to say, people that changed their religion. He thought that that regardless of the right or wrong of the former or the present or the future, change was sort of emptying the bowl. Uh my friend Gerald Elcampo put it very elegantly. He said it takes the juice out of it. So yeah, you can stick to a path, which is not to say that people don't often find solace in something that they were not did not grow up in.

Um, I just I I think continuity is important with us corporeal beings.