Gravity Control Experiments | George Hathaway

Transcript

I'm Tim Ventura and we're joined today by George Hathaway, a registered professional engineer, member of several societies including the SSE and ILE E, and highly reputable investigator of numerous anomalous phenomena over the course of his 50-year career. Hathaway earned his electrical engineering degree in 1974 from the University of Toronto and is a college level lecturer who has mentored students, educators, and specialists on physics and technology, concentrating on leading edge research and applications. Haway is a hands-on scientific and engineering manager for dozens of projects in areas as diverse as material science, pulseed power, biology, quantum optics, energy, and propulsion via customuilt scientific apparatus in association with international scientists and research institutes. He is also the author of many peer-reviewed scientific papers and the holder of two patents. George, welcome back, sir.

I cannot stress that enough. welcome back. It is an incredible honor to have you back with me. >> Thank you. And uh I I appreciate your your interest and your pertinent and sage questions and hope that uh some of my answers will might make sense even though this is a as you know and as we talked about in the last interview a rather esoteric set of subjects and uh um there's a lot of twists and turns uh so hope I can do some justice to it.

What we were chitchatting a bit before the show and one of the things that blows me away and has for decades is the fact that in this area of esoteric subjects as you call it, you are one of the few people doing real experimental work, experiment after experiment, and the work that you do is impeccable and of the highest quality. And so the folks who are the leaders in emerging science look to you to do the best most definitive experiments. That's something that we should stress for the audience. Right? So if people don't know who is George Hathaway and why is he talking about all these things it is because you are the person doing the best science in areas that other people simply can't touch. So again thank you.

>> Yeah. Um there's a it's a double-edged sword as they say because uh um in in many cases yes uh people will recognize that that I've had my finger in a lot of pies uh for a long time and and I have uh you know written quite extensively on on novel ideas in science uh and I have investigated using the best tools available. As you say, on the other hand, a lot of people shun me because they are nervous that their devices that they claim to have, you know, overunity here and a propulsive effect there uh might not withstand my scrutiny. So I have uh I sort of have have a a f one following here which is interested in in getting the to the real truth and another following here which says no stay away from Hathaway because uh you might ruin your uh your chances of that uh huge investment that you're hoping for. So >> yeah.

Well, again, that goes to the integrity and quality of your work, right? You're not just doing, you know, half a job and saying, "Oh, look, it's amazing." You're actually going through and saying, "What could possibly be going on here?" And, you know, sometimes that validates the idea. And often times, especially with things that are floating around, right, in in rumor and mythology, it invalidates it. And that's that's science. That's experimentalism right there. So, >> yes.

and and I've been extremely fortunate in having uh having some investors over the past uh years that have been really critically uh interested in getting the getting humanity to the next stage in terms of energy and propulsion and and transportation and a number of other issues. and they won't stand for or they haven't stood for halfway measures. Um, and so I I mean investors really uh at least of though of quality and who are really in the game to try to help and move things forward, move science forward are a not interested in having their reputation sullied by a bad experiment and or b having lost a lot of um investment uh that they've made and be made fools of. uh so they want the the best possible quality of instrumentation of analysis of control experiments all the stuff that I've pontificated on for years um so that they know that there's a a route here that even though it may be you know weird physics or not completely understand understood from a theoretical standpoint but the measurements seem to show to X% confidence 95 97 98% that there is something unusual going on here. >> Yeah.

>> And so that's the the path I've trodden uh for for for many years. >> Well, speaking of the path you have trodden, let's get into some of your propulsion and gravity control experiments. Again, a lot of this is esoteric. Um, a couple of these come directly from, you know, decades, almost a century of mythology. You have experimented with some of the biggest ideas out there, as well as a few that are just starting to get into the spotlight.

So, if it's okay, I want to jump in with the Alzafon experiment. My my colleague and friend Mark Soal has been neck deep in this working with David Alifon on it. But the fundamental concept at least as I understand it is that you can use dynamic nuclear polarization to align the spins of subatomic particles and create a directional propulsive force. So I know that you have built incredible I mean I I cannot stress enough. I've seen the test equipment that you've built.

Mark is using some of that absolutely amazing, impeccably built test equipment as well as collected tons of samples to do analysis on. What are your thoughts on Alafon's claims and were you able to do tests to validate any of those? >> Yeah. Um, I should I should uh correct uh a bit of misunderstanding. Um the the the effect that Fred Alifon the father father of David and Daniel u uh was working on was not a propulsive effect. So uh so-called it was a method of um modifying or modulating the gravitational field in which the experiment was being done.

So there may have been a or he was hoping for a um a a a reduction in gravitational force you might say in the earth's uh gravitational field or an increase depending on how things went uh how you configured the experiment but it wasn't that it was going to give you a propulsive or a thrust. it was simply a levitation type um claim and and set of experiments. Uh the the propulsive aspect has come in when people have said oh gee there's a a a correspondence and I made this as well uh with certain UAP phenomenon and so maybe there's a link between what Alzafon was saying and a propulsive effect. No. Uh Fred never uh claimed that he uh sorry he never claimed that his experiments were designed for a thrust.

They were designed just to see can we modulate the earth's the the effect of the earth's gravity on this little sample that I'm dynamically nuclear polarizing. Uh so uh anyway I I've been involved with that experiment for or had been for decades. Um, I first met Fred back, I think it was in the uh the the 1990s and I experiment I I was around when he was setting up an experiment um both in his lab and and uh I think at a local college and his son Daniel was the physicist that I was involved with. I was able to get some money together to uh build a replica, a couple of I say replicas or uh repeat experiments with different kinds of apparatus. And we were u able to see uh some weird effects on on a sample that was hung from a thread.

It was a ruby sample, a little ruby sphere. and at a at a specific frequency of uh microwave uh uh uh it's well there's several modes of the cavity in which the this ball this little uh um ruby uh ball was sitting. um when when the microwaves were at the right frequency and the DC magnetic field was at the right amount uh we could see that the dynamic we could measure dynamic nuclear polarization uh to an extent and we found that there was a a movement of the of the ruby crystal it was and it was banging around inside the test tube which is at liquid helium temperatures as in our experiment not in Fred's but in our version and um it was really hard to distinguish that um effect from other kinds of magnetic related effects. Einstein deass comes to mind or came to mind at the time which is a well-known uh phenomena when you have basically when you're polarizing uh a a nucleus I won't go into this in very much longer but in such detail but you're you're basically all the spins line up and you basically have a a magnet >> there and then you have a magnet a magnetic field from these big coils this big electromagnet So you can have a magnetic a purely magnetic action going on. Not a gra maybe it wasn't gravity maybe it was a magnetic purely magnetic action.

We we could never unfortunately at that state of the experiment distinguish between the two. So we had to make another experiment. Uh it was called the three gigahertz experiment and that's the one that uh Mark is working on now. uh and and he is going to I hope be able to show to distinguish uh between these prosaic effects like this magnetic one I was telling you about and and a gravitational effect that Fred was uh was promagating a long time ago. >> Well, and this goes to that younger generation carrying the torch for these experiments, right? And so it is wonderful to see people coming in getting excited building interest and getting involved.

And I think I mean Mark is doing again he's following in your footsteps. He is drilling down educating himself and doing the best possible work that can be done. But I think one of the things that surprising him and absolutely surprised me was the number and type of experimental uncertainties and errors that can come up with these. Right. It's not one it's it's not something you set up and let go and say, "Oh, look, we did it or we didn't." It's like you mentioned the Einstein Dehas effect.

There are lots of different effects that could be causing some of these interactions. And then there are lots of areas where you've just got noise and experimental error that can cause all sorts of issues. So >> yeah, it the the Alzafon experiment was uh probably the is the most complex experiment that I've been involved with. Um because it it is of course working on an atomic and a subatomic scale. there is a a quantum uh aspect to it as well and there are I don't know two dozen variables that you have to take into account experimental variables uh that are that relate to the theoretical uh underpinning that Fred had worked out and is well known at least uh part of it is well known to the uh dynamic nuclear polarization folk uh who who use this uh on a daily basis for analyzing samples.

Um although of course they're not looking for uh uh for a weight weight change in their sample. Um but there there are in well not innumerable but a lot of a lot of things that need to be taken into account. And when when someone claims that uh they have been able to show some kind of weight reduction in any kind of experiment, um you have to really drill down as Mark is doing to uh determine what the possible um artifacts are going to be. And it usually requires you to have had some experience or a lot of experience in doing these kind of things, failing and saying, "Oh, gee, yeah, look, there's an actual effect here." And then someone says, "Oh, but you forgot about this, or did you remember this?" Um, and uh, you know, have you shielded that? Have you done uh have you done a control experiment? Even an error analysis? is this within within a reasonable error bound um and can it be you know can there be other explanations so it's it takes a lot of effort and in these as I call them esoteric experiments or outside the uh the normal range of of physics um there are new ideas I mean Fred has come up with a new had come up with a new way of looking at quantum what we call a quantum vacuum and what gravity means in that case and so you scratch your head and say okay I'll look at is there a textbook now that talks about something like this no there isn't it's basically Fred so you have to you have to take you have to do what he he said and take do the experiment as far as you can uh and add whatever you all you know about uh in this case dynamic nuclear polarization uh to be able to make a reasonable judgment as to the u efficacy or the uh um the the um whether the claim makes sense I should say. >> Well, so when you meant you mentioned new ideas and you actually mentioned quantum vacuum and I got excited because that takes me into our next project.

So, this one most folks have not heard about. It was a very high pulseed power antenna that you were using to test Hal Pudop's polarizable vacuum hypothesis. And from what I understand, this experiment was eventually shelved after several delays. They were trying to collect more information to help you basically focus in on doing the experiment. They weren't able to get that done, but you do have some photos.

So, let me share that really quick. So this is I think a feed horn, right? And this was a a very again very high pulse power experiment. Can you explain to me what you guys were trying to test and what it involved? >> Yeah, surely. Um I guess one of the uh easy ways uh or an analogist way of looking at what might be or what what Hal put off uh and others have called polarizing the vacuum is you remember maybe in high school or before uh you put iron filings on a on a cardboard sheet, right? Sprinkle them all and you look at them and they're all they're random. They're they're not oriented in any particular way.

Then you take a magnet and put it under the sheet and suddenly these iron filings be go from a random heap to an organized polarized you might say u assembly. So that's sort of a one cheap way of looking at what uh how was was doing uh quite a couple of decades ago in trying to determine whether it was possible to alter the structure of the vacuum of the quantum activity that occurs in the vacuum. Um, so that it could be used, you might say, either for uh energetic possibilities or possibly for uh propulsion. Uh, and it might have an um uh an interaction with gravitation or perhaps uh some other activity like production of wormholes. uh if if you polarize enough of a vacuum into a small volume that is where all the all of the zither beon in German the the movement of these virtual particles are all moving together almost like dynamic nuclear orientation where all of the spins in Fred's idea are aligned um and something happens associated with gravity.

So um uh and and Hal's calculations showed that u unfortunately you needed huge electric fields for instance to be able to do that kind of thing uh to be able to quote polarize or organize the vacuum fluctuations. And so um he uh he sort of shelled that idea and so many others have because wow it's going to take uh paws in a a tiny volume of space. Um and but his calculations were based on a essentially a DC or a continuous um application of of power uh terms in electric field. Uh I looked at the equations and noticed that uh there was one part that of his equations that had a timevarying component. instead of a DC component there was a possibility of time varying component and I had worked in pulse power uh a little bit before or quite a bit beforehand before before that and I said why don't we u try to investigate that uh that time varying aspect uh and put a huge amount of power into a small window of space um for unfortunately it would be a very short time because that's the kind of technology we have available and the best way to do that uh was to make an antenna of the kind you see here.

There's another view too uh shows the back end. Uh, and this is a device that was uh designed by a friend of mine, Jimmy Wells, uh, who worked out of Sandia, uh, in and this kind of antenna was used to, uh, irradiate um, fighter jets, etc. to see whether it could knock out their electronics uh with a huge pulse of um of electromagnetic radiation and in this case an electric field. Uh and you can see it's a fairly sizable device. Uh the that's the antenna.

The power supply is in a in a tub uh that is not shown here, but it was able to produce 300 kilovolts uh a pulse uh in a space of about 20 to 50 picosconds rise time. And that kind of rise time uh gives you a an effective uh an effective electric field equivalent to um multi multi-gawws uh in a very small uh sheet. So what comes off the end of this antenna is not a a bulb or a you know a a some kind of a straight uh um like tubular shape of an of electricity or electric field. It's a plane. So what comes and that's it's designed so it opens up and it to those who are interested it translates 50 ohms at the front at the back end you might say the cable end to 377 ohms which is the impedance of free space and in doing so it produces a sheet of of u of electric field extremely high voltage electric field and that sheet propagates out away from the antenna at uh some speed.

So what the idea was we would put uh some samples in uh at very close to the mouth of this and probe it probe the samples with a laser uh or or other uh mechanism to see whether in fact there was a a change in in some of the characteristics of the coupling between the atoms that would indicate that there was a reduction or an increase in the uh pole polarization or the um the the attributes that the 0 point field has on atoms. So as you may recall also that how uh and Bernie Hush and a few others Maloney have had published on the fact that a hydrogen atom at least is maintained in a stable state like its orbit is stable. It doesn't collapse down into the proton because it's an electron and it's attracted to the proton uh because opposite charges attract. Somehow it stays in a circular orbit. Well, how calculated that the ability for it to stay in a circular orbit had to do with zero point fluctuations making sure that it stayed stable.

So if we could show that we could reduce or change the um the way that uh that these uh fluctuations uh affected both the atoms and their and bonding between atoms to make molecules by shining a laser through or some other method to determine whether the atoms collapsed or did something like that. uh we could show possibly that there we were hoping to show that there was some validity to this idea of house that if you put a very high amount of power into a very small volume namely like this sheet that of electric field that comes off the end which is only like microns thick um you could effectively change the in his words polarization of the vacuum. So that's what the experiment essentially was if you followed all that contorted uh explanation. Um the the problem lay we were able to produce the uh the pulses. Um but the problem lay in the fact that uh the analysis of the results were still lagging behind.

we couldn't get uh a clear picture of what samples we should use and and what we should measure. By that time unfortunately um most of the principles had to move on to other activities. Um the funding was uh uh was then questioned and we weren't able to proceed. Uh but that kind of idea uh shows you that um or this uh the whole concept shows you that if you look at a a theory that in in one way the standard way is well I'll use in this case a pal I'll look at the DC I'll look at a continuous uh amount of voltage let's say uh on in a particular experiment yeah you get a an interesting result but the voltage has to be you know monstrous for instance or current has to be monstrous Whereas if you think gee I now have instrumentation that can look at stuff really fast. I can look at phtoc changes uh by means of modern laser technology for instance and and detectors uh light detectors that work in phtocs.

Why can't instead of I look at something that is a DC, I look at something that's pulsed because I can get much more energy into a pulse than I can at a steady DC level and I can now detect things. I mean this is only over the past say 10 20 years. uh when this was uh uh when this device was being uh tested, we didn't have the capability of looking at phentoc for instance um uh changes to uh to matter being irdiated by u laser. I'll use use laser as an easy way of looking at it. Now we do and I sort of wish that we would be able to pick this up again.

um and so does Hal uh to see whether in fact his theoretical approach was substantiated uh by means of rethinking this DC idea to a pulse idea. Well, >> anyway, that's a that's the idea here. >> I mean, again, so it's a very high voltage, very narrow pulse width. Um, basically planer wave of of high electric field that's coming out and modifying the 0 point energy potential. And you know, ZPE has been in the news.

Uh, Harold Sunny White, Dr. White just did something on cimer effect cavities. Uh, Dr. Garrett Modell is working on a different approach to that. Both of those are Casemr effect.

So, it's tied into zero point energy. It's incredibly intriguing to see that making headlines again. So, you know, maybe we'll maybe we'll get some interested folks who want to do some tests here. >> Yeah. And it's uh it's sort of um interesting to look at scales.

uh look at the scale of this thing and you look at Sunny's devices which are like that big. So both of them seem to be able to at least theoretically have some way of poking the zero point field. >> Well again without brown nosing too much people should take a look at this device and the construction quality as well. Right. You were not hacking things together with tin foil and chewing gum.

This is incredibly wellbuilt. This is an engineered device, right? And so that's absolutely amazing. >> So I want to get into superconductors. Now again, this is an incredibly interesting area for me. I was just involved with a Ning Lee update story and in fact I I've heard some other update rumors as well there.

But going back to your work in this area, uh Dr. Eugene Pogclanov made claims about controlling gravity in two separate experiments. The first was actually described by Charles Platt in an article in Wired magazine that was read everywhere. Uh and it involved a rotating type 2 YBCO superconductor that reportedly created a gravitational shield back in the early 90s. And again, you have some photos that you shared with me.

Thank you so much for those. I'm gonna I'm going to put those up. >> So, this uh as you can see, is it's what we we called a Polaroid back in uh the day. Uh a a Polaroid photograph um of uh Eugene Pletnov, my brother Carl Hathaway in the center and Dan Elafon looking at the scale on the left. uh I hope it's oriented that way for the viewers and uh uh this was an experiment that u uh a lot of people had been had been uh working on at that time uh after putnov had published his and neiman's paper uh in physica c and it involves an analytical balance as you can see that dan is looking uh very carefully at and on on a protrusion to its viewer's right outside the box of that analytical balance is a uh um a sample uh that is hovering over or in a in a white box cubicle box which is hovering over um a spinning uh standard uh uh single layer YDCO disc that we make that we made in house.

Uh, and there's a motor drive. You can just see it in the top little gray thing. And my brother Carl is adjusting something there. And uh, Jean or Evi is his actual his proper name is looking at the RPM, the rotational speed of this disc uh, with a an optical tachometer. That's what he's holding on his in his hand.

And uh we are trying to spin it up to uh several several hundred RPM um while it's being levitated in the vapors of liquid nitrogen and the doer is underneath. It's hard to see. So, this is just a an archival photo of uh one of the two times that we in invited uh Jean over to our lab in in Canada uh from Finland. Uh and uh like a few others uh we saw some activity but it could not be uh ascribed to a gravitational effect. It was more a thermal effect because our balance was fairly sensitive.

Uh those analytical balances are fairly sensitive. But we had to use a balance that was not electrical. uh they had no electrical components uh because the uh well for various reasons that uh people might know that um depending on where you are above or below the Meisner uh the Meisner cutoff uh you can have rotating magnetic fields uh which will mess up an electronic balance and a lot of people had used electronic balances uh and said wow we're getting you know we're getting some weight loss and stuff. And there the electronic balance was very close to the rotating superconductor and there were all sorts of there magnets to rotate to levitate the the superconductor. Um, and they they may not have been uh um uh they may not have been designed uh to be uh consistent and and uh not have any bumps in them which would make an a magnetic field uh interact with an electronic balance.

Well, that's why all of our tests, including the one we published in Physic C, um used non electronic balances and uh um or and gravimeter in in that case. So, that's one of the photos. You can look at the next one if you want or you can ask me questions. >> Oh, absolutely. You know, but before I scroll down to the next photo though, I want to highlight the fact that you are one of the only people in the world, you may be the only person in the world to replicate the Pogllinoff rotating superconductor test.

And again, for people looking at that photo, there is Eugene Pogclanov with you in the lab, right? So, I mean, that's that's absolutely remarkable. One of the things that I've just learned in the last couple of months is uh despite NASA having a very good team that was working to replicate it, they weren't able to replicate the test for a variety of different technical reasons. You did. You made it work and you saw some results. It sounds like you're just not sure if that was gravity related or some kind of a thermal temperature effect.

Yeah, we were pretty certain that uh to the limit of our capability which as I published in the in the article is about 50 times better than what Eugene was able to use or he claimed to use I should say. Um we did not see a gravitational effect. Uh we did enough experiments with liquid helium uh and and that's the way the experiment was supposed to work. Uh and that was what Eugene had designed it as. Um we did had done enough experiments to convince ourselves of of um when we saw a thermal effect we could ping it and we could say ah that's a thermal effect.

Uh, so we got rid of as many of those as we could and still didn't see a a gravitational or a leftover effect which we could ascribe to gravity. That might be there. I'm not saying that it's totally absent, but to the best of our ability, we could not see and repeat what he had uh we he had claimed. >> Let me scroll down to the next photo. again.

You've sent me some amazing photos. I definitely want to get these. Um, so there there is yourself, a slightly younger version of yourself. >> Just slightly. >> Yeah.

Uh, on the left and then Chris Madson. Uh, let me see. CFH. >> That's my brother Carl. >> Ah, okay.

Then Eugene Pogllinoff. He is in the background there kind of in the center. Uh, Galina Shapiro. And then Daniel Alzafon. So >> that's right.

Yeah, >> April I think. >> Yeah, Dr. Shapiro was uh from I believe McMaster University, an expert in superconductors, high temperature superconductors uh which we who we hired to uh uh interpret what Eugene had had suggested would be the necessary method of making the superconductor the blayer two-layer superconductor that he used in his experiments. So I I'm not expert in um in that end of material science. So fortunately we had uh Galina to help us uh in fabricating the uh these large superconductors to uh to Eugene's specifications.

>> Yeah. And then let me scroll down to our final photo there for the rotating disc experiment. And it looks like this is well maybe you could tell me what this is actually. It looks like there's the disc in there with the the assembly. The disc is kind of halfway up kind of hidden by >> white wiring.

It looks like >> Yes. Uh from the bottom up, you see three uh support coils. Uh these are the solenoidal coils that support the uh uh the billayer disc, which is as you said encased uh in the those white wires. You can see it as a sort of a um a gray uh it's a disc even though we're looking at it edge on and uh it has an assembly um on it in its center that allows us to rotate it mechanically as this is one of the arguments that uh uh Eugene and others have levied against our experiment that uh well you managed to wrote you had to rotate your superconductor mechanically rather than using those. Uh you see the white wires are supposed there are three of three sets u and they are supposed to be uh pulsed in such a way as to drag the super the levitated supeructor around so that it would start to spin.

Um it was never poss and this is Eugene's design by the way. This is all okayed by him. But we never were able to even at high power get the the superconductor to spin after we've le we levitated it fine. I mean it levitated up to the middle of those uh those wires, those white uh the white spinning wires you might say uh spinning coils. But they never the the superconductor never rotated on its own.

Um so we had to mechanically uh uh rotate it and Eugene says, "Okay, it doesn't matter. You rotate it any way you want. Uh you'll still get the effect." And unfortunately, we didn't see the effect. This whole assembly is at the bottom of a liquid helium doer. Uh, and uh, you can't see the top of it because it's about 3 foot tall.

Um, okay. You need uh baffles and all sorts. You can just see some of the baffles or bits of the bits and pieces at the top. Uh, I didn't Oh, you can look up the uh >> um the physicy uh article that or paper that we published and you can see a bit better version. Uh but I thought I'd show people who said how did you get the superconductor to rotate? Uh and it was through this gear mechanism uh of which you can see a couple of two of the gears two of the three gears um spline gears.

Uh anyway, um unfortunately we were only able to uh rotate the superconductor up to about five to 600 RPM, which Eugene said that should be fine. Uh you should get 10% or between 10 and 20% of what I saw in terms of weight loss. Uh unfortunately, we saw nothing. Uh but that's the way it goes. Um, we gave it our best shot and we designed a bi-layer superconductor.

I don't know whether you can see that. It's a little hard to see, but that's a twolayer superconductor uh made the one layer is non-s superconducting, the other layer is superconducting just the way Eugene uh claimed uh it should be made. and we sent over a superconductor to him uh and he said it's good looks good to me. We did our tests on it and uh your uh your formula or Galina's formula uh based on what I sent is good. >> So the your superconductor should work just fine and unfortunately uh it didn't turn out that way.

said, >> "Well, so there was a second Pogclinoff experiment and let me see if I can switch windows here." Ah, perfect. And that was the Poglov force beam experiment. I actually did an interview with Dr. Pogllinoff on that. Um, so in this second experiment, there was a lot of confusion.

I I want to preface that for the audience. people confused the impulse generator or the force beam with his first experiment which they should not do. Um so he had co-authored this second experiment in a paper with Dr. Giovani Modines claiming that a Marx discharge onto a superconducting emitter created a beam of force that he described as quote unquote capable of crushing brick and warping plate steel. So again, you are one of the few people to ever attempt a replication on this and we have a photo of this force beam apparatus that you built up on the left.

So were you able to test this and what kind of results did you see? >> Yes. Uh to uh reiterate what you started off by saying uh this is a very confusing experiment. Not only it is confused with the rotating disc experiment which I just showed you a um or you just put up uh a a photo of but that this so-called force beam experiment has gone through about had gone through about five or six iterations um that claimed each one worked better than the next one and I was at the uh the conference in Turin in in uh in Italy uh under uh while Moderna was there. Uh it was um at the at a university in Tin and Petnov had been invited to talk about this uh new thing of his that would knock down pencils and produce a beam that would go through walls. um why it happened to go through a wall and knock a pencil down on the other side of a wall was a little confusing to me.

But anyway, uh the um the initial experiment that he dis apparently allowed him to discover this effect used not a Marx generator but vandagramraphph machine, a single vandagramraft machine and then he used a double vandagramraft machine in another iteration. Then he used uh a marksbank in his third or fourth iteration. Then he used a different method of um orienting the the uh the superconductor in the fifth iteration. So all these iterations I said to hell with this I'm going to go with the first one which he presented at the Tin conference >> and uh said here it is. He gave he he showed sketches never a photograph but sketches of what it was supposed to be like and I don't know whether you've ever seen a photograph of any >> no of any force beam experiment of patnoffs.

Um anyway this is our version. It's a little hard to see what's inside the tube, but uh what's inside the tube, you can just maybe barely make out something that looks brass on the left in the left part of the of the vacuum tube. >> Okay. >> And that and there's a black thing attached to that brass thing. So it actually looks there's a brass and that brass thing holds the liquid nitrogen against which the superconductor is affixed that black thing that little black disc I don't know whether you can see it very well but on at the left end of the of this vacuum chamber uh tubular vacuum chamber between the uh vandagramraph and and the high voltage shapes there's is a as I say a a brass uh um a little brass cylindrical holder and against that is a fixed a superconductor and the superconductor was of the one of his instantiations was a uh just a centered disc another one was something called a miraami disc uh we used u I think I we used both uh we tried both and uh the liquid nitrogen container was inside the left uh high voltage shape uh that uh it's called a a re-entrant shape uh on the left.

Uh so we were able to uh cool down a superconductor to become to be in its uh uh superconducting state as required by uh Eugene and we were able to uh apply a very high voltage to it. Uh in these these vandagramraft machines are rated at 600 KV each. uh in normal operation uh you'll get maybe 3 400 KV max uh from each of them. So, you're pushing a mega volt uh across between these these shapes, these aluminum shapes that you see attached or touching the uh the the vandagramraph heads. And those those shapes are the left one is attached to the superconductor which is on the left and the right uh re-entrance shape aluminum thing is attached to a plate uh a disc and that is the so-called ground or the uh the opposite polarity.

uh these vandagramraphph machines op are designed for working at opposite polarity and so let's say the left one produces a a positive polarity with respect to its base the right one produces a negative polarity on the head with respect to its base connect the two bases together and you can get this close to a megavolt difference. Uh we did it both ways. Uh switched the polarities around and our dis our u detector was inside the uh the copper screen room. You can see behind the uh uh this experiment is a copper uh it's hard to tell. It's copper maybe, but it's a a copper screen room, a double screened uh chamber.

And uh you can walk into it. There's a door. You can just see the door latch on the left. And inside that chamber, we hung strips of toilet paper uh from a uh from a rod, a curtain rod, let's say. And when we aimed this big assembly, this pletnov assembly, uh we should have seen some kind of slight movement of the of the toilet paper hanging inside.

We didn't see a thing, unfortunately. Um we set up everything just the way uh I had learned how to do it in Tin. uh but it it came to not unfortunately and as I mentioned perhaps in a at the beginning and uh in previous discussions um a lot of my history has been unfortunately negative negating the claims of uh a lot of investigators at least down to a particular uh level of certainty. This was uh really unfortunate. We were really hoping that uh uh we'd be able to see some kind of gravitational effect or force effect.

I don't know whether it's a gravitational beam or whatever it was. Um, we uh we evacuated it and backfilled with argon and we got we didn't get the blue streamer thing, but we certainly got it up to the voltage that he claimed something was going to happen. Uh, and uh, unfortunately it didn't. Anyway, that's a picture of our device. By the way, underneath the right hand vandagramraphph is our high vacuum system.

It's a turbo pump that for people who care about those kind of things. So, we were able to uh make sure that we got the proper vacuum uh in the system. We tried it with a vacuum. We tried it with back filling with argon. Whole bunch of tests that we tried.

>> Yeah. Well, and again, George, regardless of the experimental outcome, I mean, Poglonov made headlines worldwide in the 1990s, right? and you are one of the only people to ever attempt replications of this. So you know the the experimental replication that you did you worked with him I mean you've described it in details immaculately designed and conducted experiments so that in itself is a tremendous victory. Um so if it's okay let me let me go on to the next one. I'm going to see if I can bring this up and just switch the screen share right over >> because that seems like it's it's less prone to error.

So, uh, Ferris Williams, I believe he was a professor of Meredus and he had a 5D gravitational theory. He told me about this years ago at the stave conference and if I remember his description correctly, basically he was describing something that kind of resembled an an umbrella with a diverging electric field. And so I guess as this field diverged over a greater surface area supposedly it would create a reduction in gravity. Um, and so you have a paper here and I'm gonna scroll down and I'll show a couple of the photos from it. Can you tell me a little bit about what you did with this one? >> Uh, yes.

Uh, back in 1993 is when we uh, we started this with for Willie Willie Williams or Ferris Williams. And uh he asked us to uh um to suggest a method of um of of making a controlled experiment that we could do a good job of measuring the weight of a uh it turns out a disc that is placed between a diverging electric current and a converging electric current. M. >> And so I designed this uh rather weird looking thing that um as you can see consists of I think there's a three or 4 inch diameter copper um piping and the gap at the bottom of this particular picture uh is 3-in copper. It says uh in the gap uh is placed the uh this test disc phenolic disc I believe.

Um this uh whole experiment if you go to the next uh sli uh the next page uh shows that it was yeah it was designed to be oriented in this direction and the balance there's an analytical balance above quite far above a tube connecting to or entering that uh the top left angle or elbow. So there's a hole cut in the top left elbow that a Kevlar fiber came through and held a disc of >> phenolic. The disc was held between the uh the gap or in the gap that is made between those uh or the C-section you might say uh in the gap of the C uh the letter C I'm saying and the uh the uh parts of let's see we go to the the next slide I get or the picture slide u you can see that uh I'm holding the end capsu or holding one the bottom end cap of this C in my left hand and there's a hole that I'm pointing to uh actually I guess this is upside down this would be the the hole I'm pointing to is where the Kevlar fiber came in and supported a disc that was between those two uh end caps. One end cap I'm holding. So, the other end cap, you can see, is actually on mounted on part of the uh uh the 3-in copper, and I'm holding another uh I'm holding the other end, the upper end cap, as it turns out.

So the idea was to put a very high current into the center of one end cap. It would spread out go around the sea uh the copper to the other end of the other end cap and converge. >> Okay. >> And come out the through those wires that those welding wires that you can see. So the idea was that um we could sort of double the effect.

Uh on one side we'd have a diverging current on the other side we have a converging current and we should see a motion in the direction of the converging current. Uh if this thing is held I don't know whether there's other pictures that maybe make this clearer. >> And then these well so these are the discs and you do have a ruler for scale so that that's helpful. So folks can see this is these are large. This is not tiny stuff.

>> Yeah. And the and the center thing I think is the um is the actual that that star shape is the actual uh uh test mass. >> Okay. >> Oh okay. So the test mass basically you would have converging on one side of it and diverging on the other side of it and the mass should move.

>> Yes. If you go to the next one there's sort of the disc in there, but it's or that star-shaped I call it a disc, but it's star- shaped uh test mass. Uh anyway, >> yeah. And then we have one more photo after this. And that I guess that is the the power connection, right? So, >> yes.

So, that's one power connection. Let's say that's to the divergent. >> Yeah. uh NA and the other one you can see in the background it would be the convergent uh where the the P the the um the current is taken off as the the other other polarity. So we uh put several hundred amps uh three 400 amps I think through this um con diverging and converging current.

uh and uh William Ferris was there and unfortunately we couldn't see a we couldn't see a a weight loss to the uh best of our ability uh it should have shown according to him um according to his calculations. So he said I've made a mistake I'll go back and redo my calculations. Unfortunately, he uh became ill. He wasn't in great health uh toward the end of when he was trying to redo his calculations. So, it never we didn't we weren't able to redesign the experiment um to capture what he thought might be a better version.

But anyway, it gives you an idea of uh a really rough sort of rough experiment. Well, again, a great experimental construction. So again, you basically you're creating kind of a a plane there where you've got converging on one side, diverging on the other side. In between those is a mass that should move if there's a gravitational effect. And you know what? When I talked with Ferris, I believe it was 2005 or six, um it was closer to the end of his life and he was still working on this idea.

So, I I think you may be the only person who's ever tested this. >> As far as I know, um I I am and I worked with him for uh quite a few months to actually design the experiment and say, "Is this okay? Is this the kind of thing, you know, this diameter? Do you think this 3-in diameter is going to uh to make make a difference? Pardon me. I get rid of this." >> Okay. Well, let me go to Dr. John Brandenburgg's GM theory and I'm going to try and switch right to a couple of photos you sent me of a very young Dr.

John Brandenburgg whom I know very very well and so this was an experiment he the GM is gravitational electromagnetism it is a unification theory that he's been working on and if I understand correctly he's predicting a directional force based on something like pointing vector propulsion right >> yes it was uh um I I guess you could call and he called it pointing vector um that was a a result of a three-phase uh magnetic uh sort sort of rotating three-phase magnetic system. So uh he came to our lab to to do some experiments and uh either I I can't remember it was we brought or or we showed him our we had a three-phase um a device that would produce a three-phase high current three-phase uh power. It was for driving a three-phase motor >> and >> okay >> so we wound a three-phase coil uh in the manner that he suggested. U the thing in the foreground is that three-phase uh alternator. In fact, it was it's an alternator that produces three-phase um uh three-phase current.

And in the background is uh a stand or in the center of that little loop or that that uh loop, black loop that he's pointing at is his coil uh three-phase coil. And on that um stand we mounted a gravometer uh which is the kind of thing that is taken out onto the field uh by uh surveyors uh to see whether there's an anomaly in underneath a gravitational anomaly which would indicate an or body >> and these grav gravimeters are good to 10 - 8 10 - 9g so that's an extremely slight change in the Earth's gravitational pole, you might say, that these gravimeters, which you can show in the next picture, uh can operate at. And our gravimeter was uh um is called a Sodian Sod gravimeter. You can look it up on the web if you wish. No electronic parts.

Once again, there it is. you can see any change in the gravitational pull of the little platinum weight inside the gravimeter. uh if it's going to change uh unfortunately we didn't see any um but that gravimeter was also used uh in the pletnov experiment uh which I didn't well I I mentioned it but uh it got down to way better than 50 times better than Eugene's uh the test with with the analytical balance but anyway this is John um hoping to see and we were hoping to see his uh some kind of effect from three-phase uh three-phase power. I think you can see actually three wires, those white wires going underneath uh that that support for the gravometer uh to his three-phase coil that uh he designed and and uh hoped would work. Unfortunately, we didn't see it.

But uh I I guess to prelude your or preside your question, I don't know anyone else who has done any uh experiments uh on the gem theory uh recently. Um I feel I still think there's some worth I still think it's a worthwhile theoretical approach although I'm not a theorist. um that there are aspects of it but little I know that uh intrigue me but unfortunately uh his uh conversion of his theory to a an actual experiment didn't pan out. >> So I I mean these are these are just a few of the experiments. Thank you for sending over the photos in private.

I've been pestering you to start a historical photo library. You absolutely need to do that. I mean, I am so thankful that you're helping share this history and I I'm positive you have more that you know, we're not able to go through today. >> Yep. Lots more.

>> Um, so another experiment though that you did this one again deep in the mythology, Victor Shower's levitation technology. I think you're probably talking about the repulsing, right? That's the one that everybody knows about, which my understanding was that was almost like a fluid dynamics approach to levitation or propulsion. >> Yeah. Um there's a long and interesting backstory >> uh to uh to Victor and his uh his attempts. Um I I knew this through uh my uh rather intimate association uh with uh uh Halputoff's Institute for Advanced Studied in in Austin and they were able to get hold of went over to uh Austria to uh Victor's son and who still had a a couple of pieces of his dad's work repulsing being one of them.

brought it back to the lab in Austin and uh spun it up. Uh that was courtesy of Scott Little, who was Hal's um right-hand man and uh and tech technical genius and a theor good at theory too. Uh Scott was way up there in far as my estimation in terms of uh looking at unusual an esoteric kinds of things. Um, so, uh, Scott was able to, uh, put together a, uh, device to rotate, uh, and spin up the, uh, repulsing and measure weights and see whether there was any loss of of, uh, of mass or loss of weight. uh as the repulsion went through its uh spinning cycles and carefully making sure that there was no air effects >> because this thing is going berserk at you know thousands of RPM.

Um, no change was seen uh that could be ascribed to a uh um a a weight loss uh or a gravitational effect. And uh I was rather skeptical of the whole thing. Unfortunately, not fortunate, unfortunately, the unfortunate part was that people forget what um Victor was involved or what the environment was around Victor at the time he claimed to make all of these discoveries. um Nazi Germany, the Nazis had invaded um a taken over Austria and everybody was trying to save their skin. >> Yeah.

And um and if you had any rather out way out idea that could perhaps help the the Nazi cause um they would grab onto it especially if it was sort of esoteric like well flowing water and and uh something earthbased and uh maybe it had to do with an Aryan mythology. Uh and in my opinion, although I don't know this for certain, um uh Victor parlayed his vast experience in water flow and understanding uh streams and and uh how flora and fauna and fish uh and dams and things like that. uh uh parlayed that in that insight into what he thought might be of interest to the Third Reich or at least the the folk who were looking for anything that could give them an advantage over the allies. And uh you know the Horton brothers tried that too with their flying machines and and uh spinning attempts at uh at what we would call uh flying saucers at the time. Uh and there there a great number of of folk uh some of which who were taken over uh taken back to the states under Operation Paperclip.

Um but um it's my belief that that Victor said, "I think that war is going to end at some point. I'm going to make some devices that I think will stave off my capture and perhaps death um for as long as I can. This is my conjecture. I do not know uh for certain, but all of the kinds of things that he did were the kinds of things that the that the uh the the physicists, you might say, in the in the Nazi regime were interested in. >> Okay.

anything that you know is esoteric, even more esoteric than we can that we're talking about now. Um that might give them a leg up. Uh so they found this guy Shaburgger got very interested in it and uh um and then the war was over and then Victor died after that I think. Uh but his his son uh was able to uh uh keep some of the stuff uh and and we we tested it or Scott uh tested it and I was there. Um >> well, again, it it's valuable history.

I I tend to agree with you in my own personal opinion, right? It's it's one of those things that was wrapped up with Nazi mythology during World War II and the science was somewhat lacking compared to a lot of other ideas, right? That's a generous way to put it. But um but again, it's been out there. It's in the mythology. It's one of those things that it's all over the place online and you were there for the test. Yeah.

So, let me move along to an experiment you worked on with Lance Williams testing a possible relationship between gravity and electrostatics via Kusa Klein theory. So, in my case, I've heard about Kuza Klein for 20 30 years now. This is kind of a hyperdimensional theory and Ival was kind of compared it in in general terms to Einstein's unified field theory or also later string and brain theories where again they're they're separating physics out into higher dimensions. Um c could you tell me a little bit about what you did there? >> Yeah. Um the Lance's approach to Kuza theory uh was to uh um to to see whether he could find a version of it that would allow experimentation uh in the Earth's gravitational field.

And yes, it was an extension, you might say, of uh of Einstein theory. and uh made a lot of sense to a lot of people but had some extraneous variables or extra variables uh and an extra dimension that um didn't sit well with a lot of conventional theorists. Notwithstanding uh uh Lance is a a competent theorist theorist and said, "Gee, I've whittleled the Kuza theory down to its essential parts that would allow an experiment to take place uh with experimental capabilities that somebody has." Well, Lance, I I've known Lance from for some time from conferences and things like that, and he approached me and said, "I can get some funding uh to put together or or to fund an experiment that we can put together at your lab, George, if possible, and see if we can test this idea that I have whittleled out of or winnowed out of uh Kuza. a theory and it involved the application of very high voltage uh DC in this case not pulse but DC voltage to um an object that is a u suspended in the earth's gravitational field >> and it sort of like a befeld brown effect but it doesn't involve an asymmetry Um it it simply involves getting an extremely high voltage onto an elevated um an an elevated uh um metallic in this case conductor uh that has a charge distribution around it of a certain type compared to the earth's uh curvature and the earth's uh uh the direction of its um uh gravitational field etc. So uh we used uh one of those bandigraph machines that I that you showed in the patnov re gravity beam experiment uh to produce u voltages on this elevated uh conductor and measured its weight while it was being uh charged up.

And we charged it up to well over 200,000 volts from one of these Vandagramraft machines and measured its weight down to uh parts of a milligram and unfortunately didn't see any results. That's why the publication says null result of Palooa theory experiment. Um uh here's yet another null result that Haway has come across or has has uh produced. But uh I mean Lance uh figured that uh he'll have to go back to the drawing board and see whether he forgot or didn't take account of one particular part of the Kuza theory which uh would have allowed perhaps a different kind of experiment or a different shape of this conductor or we didn't you know what measure the uh the weight loss the proposed weight loss accurately enough. Um but according to what he had calculated, we should have seen it easily in the experimental setup that we had.

Uh and uh I mean people can go to the read about it in the in in the publication. You look up Haway and Williams and null result of Kuza experiment. Uh it's it's on uh it's in science direct or somewhere like that or um research. >> Well, now George, I should ask I hopefully was not mistaken. I was thinking of Kuza Klein.

You were describing Kuza theory. Are those different or >> No, they're essentially the same. Uh Lance Lance called Lance distinguishes the Kuza part of the theory that he used from the old the general Kuza client as far as I recall. Uh so you're not wrong. It's just uh he used a slightly different terminology to to emphasize that it was from a part of the theory, the Kuza part, that he was able to get some kind of experimental possible possibility.

>> Okay, that makes yeah that makes more sense. And again, null result is not bad. This is experimental science, right? It's this kind of thing where you go into each one hoping for amazing results, >> but you know, we we have to accept what science shows us. >> But and and also the uh at least showing these and discussing these results, I hope will lead someone who's has a bigger brain than me or has more experience to say, gee, I would do that experiment this way. Here's the basis that Haway made, but you know, if we do this and that as a, you know, an alternative or a modification of what Hathaway did, might be better, might see an effect.

>> Well, let let's put a pin in that. Let's come back to that in a moment. I do want to do last but not least, you did work with the legendary John Hutcherson for years. Both of you did TV and radio around the globe in the 1980s. And so, younger folks may not realize this.

I mean, you guys were famous for several years doing amazing work. And several of John's videos showcase levitation of various materials. Was that something that you were involved with filming? Because I know that you didn't see all of the effects that he had. >> Yes. Uh, I was involved with filming some a couple of them um and witnessing them myself uh since I was in Toronto at the time and uh had my own business getting going.

Uh it turns out in in starting off in these kind of scientific realms and I had some conferences I mentioned like in 1981 and 1983. Uh, and so I was a busy boy in in Toronto and John was out in in Vancouver out he was in Vancouver but uh fortunately um the uh the the person who alerted me to John's activity was a guy named Alex Pazero and he lived not far from John. So he witnessed a lot of stuff, a lot of the early uh things like the the magnets, the the file coming apart and and sparks and and things floating and uh which I only witnessed a couple of. And so Alex would report to me report I mean he would say, "Yeah, last night I saw this, you know, another amazing thing of John's." Um, and I relied on Alex a great deal. We were business partners at the time.

Uh, to to convince me that I should get out there and I did get out there a couple of times and saw a couple of things. But as you know and has been emphasized, this was a sporadic, highly sporadic activity. So, I could go out there um and spend a couple of days and only see a cup, you know, a bit of tin foil moving around or some some minor effects. I did see a major effect, a piece of um ferite lifting up and uh a bushing breaking apart. And that was in the presence of two other witnesses um that verified that uh they were there.

And so it was rather difficult for me to be on site the whole time >> because you know it might be uh 3 days before anything actually happened. John would get the thing going and it would go and it would go and it would go and nothing would happen. So and maybe a couple of days later, hey, I think it's starting to work. So, Alex would bound over and uh and six hours later maybe something would fly up. Anyway, uh so that severely limited my you know intimate and continued involvement.

Uh but I was able to at least set up uh a few crude instruments, an oscilloscope and some antennas and things like that which I could record the completely noisy waveform as I expected from overpowered by all these spark gaps and things that he had going on. um and make a stab at trying to figure out whether there was an electrostatic or an electromagnetic basis that had any any relevance to any theory uh that was being promulgated. Of course, Tom Bearden had a theory about why the Hutcherson effect was working as it did, and it had to do with um certain ways that the electromagnet the electromagnetic spectrum was uh was being abused by John, you might say. Uh and other people said, "Oh, yeah, I think I know what's happening." Um amongst many others who saying it's all fake, of course. Uh and that as uh years progressed, John did have to fake it uh unfortunately.

But uh anyway, uh do you have any other >> Yeah. No, I you know what I appreciate you're running through I appreciate you're running through all of that. Um, and just as an aside, I guess in terms of John, he had one experiment in particular in the 2000s where a television crew basically asked him to come up with something because they wanted to get something on film. And he sent me he actually sent me a video. He was really excited.

He said, "I built a lifter." He had a toy UFO on a a single power wire. And he said, "Look, it's moving around." I said, "Well, that's that's not exactly what the rest of the community is doing." But I was like, I I I like the idea. Unfortunately, the reason I mentioned that is that particular video, people focused in on the wire and said, "See, we knew he was faking it." And what they didn't realize was at the time, number one, he was being pressured by a television crew. And number two, it was never supposed to be the the quote unquote Hutcherson effect. It was just something he came up with on the fly.

So >> yeah, there's there's several instances of that uh in in the in the later years, I say in the 2000s and and one of them is uh where he has a board and a bunch of stuff on the board and then he has this big cylinder of uh PZO electric material and he applies an alternating voltage to the PZO electric stack and it starts to vibrate and all of the things on the on the plate or on the board start to vibrate and he says, "Well, you know, that maybe that's a part of what I, you know, my my effect." Well, not not the way I remember. >> Yeah. Not the classic. >> Yeah. Well, George, absolutely amazing run through on so many ideas and, you know, definitely send me over links to these and I will drop links into any papers that that you have that you want to get out there.

Now earlier you were talking about folks who might want to replicate these. So I guess one of the big questions for me is based on your knowledge, experience, your incredible expertise, which ones of these do you think that people should be most focused on and and are there any that folks should just avoid because it's you know been there done that? Um in as far as propulsion is concerned um or I should say uh gravity manipulation I still think uh the Alzafon experiment is the outstanding one that it needs to be finished off. Um uh Martin Tyimar in Dresden did his attempt. he couldn't see anything in uh in his attempt although it was um not exactly the way Fred had uh suggested um but uh and then uh others have suggested from a theoretical basis including Eric Davis that uh he sent me a paper some time ago showing that people who had actually been involved in DNO dynamic nuclear orientation uh had set up a somewhat similar experiment and seen nothing. I think it was like liquid in a tube and that if the liquid was being affected by gravity it should come rise up the tube the the sample tube and it didn't or something like that.

So there have been a couple of um approaches that have said it's unlikely but I still personally still think that it's an open question. It's some one of these experiments that I wasn't able to complete and in the way that the other experiments I've just gone through I sort of have been able to complete but Kletnov and Lance Williams and uh Ferris Williams and others. Um, but uh this one was still an open-ended thing for me and I wish Mark uh SoCal and his crew all the best in in trying to uh get to the bottom of this and uh determine whether there's something there or not. uh they claim to have had some initial success uh but they know that there's a lot of work to do to uh to distinguish between a true gravitational effect and a and an artifact. Um and that's what they're working on.

So that's what I would I would suggest anyway. >> Yeah. Well, and then you would not say this for yourself. I will promote you for you and so you are available to consult and give advice to serious research projects as well which is what you've been doing. That's what your company has done over the course of your career is um lots of people have brought you their projects and said George we need your insights and feedback.

What are we doing wrong? What could we be doing better? And how should we do this to effectively measure the effect? So that is also an area where you were out there I providing consulting, providing mentoring and leadership in that area, right? >> Yeah, I I appreciate that uh very much and if I can help other folk uh at least avoid pitfalls >> u and I've I've written somewhat extensively about that whole aspect uh about avoiding uh the things that are going to embarrass you, you might say. uh in in your experimental approaches. Uh so I'm I'm happy to oblige. >> Yeah. That well again I mean it's the knowledge in the experience and then expertise right and there are so many experiments where folks overlook things and so that's that's absolutely amazing.

>> Yeah. >> So I think that was everything that that we had. I mean I could just let it record again for a while if you want. We could just chitchat but no >> that that's okay. I I should uh I should let you go.

Um and uh maybe next time we can talk about the energy prop projects. >> Ah you have more. Okay. I you know what I am happy. Send me over send me over a list.

So let me do my closing though and and I I will this will take a little bit of editing. It probably take a fair amount of editing because I'm adding in stuff I have to cut now. But um I am not sure how the Zoom will look on the camera because it looks different on my screen with the screen share. >> Yeah. >> But I I'll I'll try and get that together.

Um and yeah, George, let me close by thanking you so much for your time today. It is again a tremendous honor and absolute pleasure being able to run through all of these with you. the the history of what you've done is mindblowing. Absolutely mind-blowing. So, thank you so much, sir.