Ross Coulthart exposes new UAP video and whistleblower: What's next? | Reality Check

Transcript

[Music] hello and welcome to this special edition of reality check following straight on the heels of what I do think is one of the most important stories I've ever read Jake Barber you'll accept is a very difficult story to take straight away and I can appreciate people may be feeling some degree of ontological shock with claims of psionic influence on non-human technology we've been told for years by the US Military and by very cleverly placed films in Hollywood and books that psychic phenomena is nonsense but I am I'm thrilled by recent developments like the telepathy tapes which despite the debunkers continue to show quite interesting evidence of psychic phenomena and I've known for a while that there is a link between human consciousness and whatever the technology or the intelligence is that's purportedly behind what we're seeing in our skies our oceans and in orbit so to help me analyze the implications from this story I'd like to bring in two very special guests first up rear Admiral Tim gadet who's a longtime friend of the show we've interviewed him before um he's a former head of the NOAA and a very senior retired military officer who's given very distinguished service to his country and he's recently spoken out himself about how he believes that there is some kind of nhi presence engaging with this planet that seems to want to be heard and also joining us is a correspondent from the hill another good friend of the show Merrick Von renen Camp welcome gentlemen uh now I'm not asking you to be nice I want you to be brutal I'm expecting we'll get the inevitable debunkers and trolls taking us wipe it is so if either of you want to make any comments about the show or ask me a question fire away well let me start here uh thank you for having us on Ross and it it's I cannot say verify 100% that that Jake is accurate and legit because I don't know him and I don't know the fellow Air Force uh Personnel that you that vouch for him but I do know John blitch the former Dev Gru officer and uh so off the cuff with his endorsement and voucher um I'm inclined to trust and and think that Jake is legitimate and that's that's my first first spot on that yeah I I I I don't know um whether we made it clear enough just how distinguished a military career uh Lieutenant Colonel John blitch has he's he's a former Delta Force officer so it's quite unique to have somebody from his background speaking publicly and he's also written extensive on the phenomenon he's taken a very close interest in it and he's got a forthcoming book coming out he's also as you'll learn in an interview that we do with him later next week he's an experiencer and he's had Direct experience of the phenomenon and it's quite chilling what he describes happened to him and it's interesting you know Tim a lot of military personnel have actually said to me including people Elite operators from the Special Forces they they've talked about their experiences with the phenomenon in one of the things that we did as a preparatory exercise for this story we actually went to a field very close to Fort Brag where the uh very elite of the American special forces are located and we actually did C5 with some of the people who have assisted in the preparation of this film um they they are very very interested a lot of these elite elite military operators in this kind of phenomena they do not dismiss it and as you say Colonel John blitch is one of those people and um the other two people uh Don and Fred who backed up Jake's story and they have firsthand experience on the range with Jake which is quite extraordinary they are Elite tier one military operatives very highly trained the absolute CR dear Creme of the military Special Forces in the United States and it was an honor and indeed a real pleasure to get to know them they're good human beings they derive absolutely no benefit from telling me what they've told me and supporting Jake's story and I find it intriguing because I freely admit when I first spoke to Jake and I said so how are we bringing down these craft and he explains to me it's not the bringing down that's the issue it's the summoning how do we get them to come in the first place and as we all know there's long been talk notably at Dr Steven Greer for example has talked about something that he calls C5 where through meditation and some kind of trained meditative psychic involvement with the phenomena it's been asserted that it's possible to attract the phenomenon and look I'll be honest I was a skeptic about that until I met people who could do it and I've been in the presence of people who were trained as psionic assists by the US Military and I've watched them do this summoning and I know it's confronting but by golly it works Ross uh can I I'll just jump in and I'll I'll say first of all congratulations on an extraordinary interview um I know you put put a lot of time and effort into this so congratulations um the allegations are truly extraordinary um I think everybody will agree on that um but if if you haven't punched Jake uh Barb ticket to another Congressional hearing that that you know I think you spurred the the Congressional hearing that um that Dave grush um made his extraordinary uh allegations and Revelations that um if this does not spur another hearing that brings in more witnesses then then we have a major major problem and I know you've spoken about this but I this is near and dear to my heart this is this is a constitutional issue um Congress appears to be very much in the dark um o about these allegations and and the are extraordinary allegations but the more people that come forward um the smoke is just it's overwhelming it's overbearing at this point I think um and and kudos to you and I I think um Ross when we spoke last uh several months ago we we spoke of kind of a critical mass of of whistleblowers coming forward and I think this is a a major step forward in in in having kind of that that mass of individuals right that is self- sustaining at some point that we hopefully we will'll get more clarity and get more investigation and and true investigation um you know the hearings on on the house oversight committee while um I think informative I I think we need something with teeth we need sub penas we need we need some real uh Steely eyed a very hard look at this and um if Congress isn't up to the task then then the new the incoming Trump Administration really needs to shake things up I agree with you Merrick I mean I've I've had months of people in some ta some cases abusing me or threatening me because they get angry that we're not just saying everything we know and I think one of the the problems out there in the field of social media in UAP world is a lot of people have no idea how hard it is to persuade somebody like Jake to speak publicly it has been over two years now uh it's been an enormous job uh basically persuading him of the merits of coming forward and persuading him he can feel safe about doing it but the thing I really admire about Jake and I think we explained this in the story but I want to reemphasize it he explains in the story that the people that he liased with in the pentagon's UFO office they've confirmed to him that what he saw on the place he terms the range was alien tech nhi tech non-human intelligence technology and that's key and what people need to understand is before we put Jake on television we've actually gone through the process with him of watching him give evidence so we've been with him when he's gone back and actually I was Consulting with him on the weekend when he was actually telling his Aerospace employer that you know he was concerned about the safety of himself and the safety of his men there had been um a confrontation that we're not going to go into a lot of detail about but basically they his team came to the conclusion that their lives were under threat it doesn't get any more serious than that they also came to the conclusion that they believed that people they knew have been murdered to protect this secret and moreover there's been ongoing threats and intimidation of people to protect the secrecy of a program that frankly I know Congress has not been properly briefed about just to address one thing you say as well in in your commentary um yes Jake has given evidence to the Senate Select Committee for intelligence but the way they do this is very interesting I think there's a cordon Senate here they they protect the the politicians by bringing in Witnesses like him who are so explosive and they sit them down in front of the staffers yes it's all recorded it's all done according to the proper form in a skiff and they're you know properly attended by all of the very senior staffers but what what con concerns me the reason why Congress I think is aware but also not aware at the same time is because you have this ridiculous situation where Congressional Representatives they're they're frightened they're scared of this UAP issue and they're intimidated by it and so they send their staffers often their legal council along so that they have legal professional privilege to prot protect the secrecy of what they've been told and there may very well be a a private briefing I know because I've spoken to senators in particular who have been briefed about these allegations but what's happening I think is a timidity a fear uh and and we know I mean I'm not going to name names but we know that there have been people at very high levels in some of these committees who have basically misused their positions to suppress public awareness of this issue and I agree with you at the heart of this this is a constitutional issue I mean when when somebody like Tim swore an oath to serve as an officer in the US Navy which he did and reached the absolute Pinnacle of the US Navy he swore an oath to the Constitution not to the US Navy he swore an oath to the Constitution and the lawyer in me the attorney in me feels that that's an extraordinarily important obligation and when I've talked to the military people and believe me there are dozens more than the people that I've put on the TV today uh when I've talked to military people who who've basically told me about what they know of this Legacy program they're torned because their Patriots just like these men that have spoken today they gain absolutely nothing by speaking publicly like they have today all they gain is a whole lot of hell they're going to suffer the slings and arrows of trolls and debunkers there'll be the inevitable attacks on them uh you know every little detail of their personal lives will be dredged through and they'll be looking for and they'll throw it at them just like they did with David grush and frankly it's a disgrace I think part of the problem at the moment is the UAP Community needs to take a l hard look at itself and stop treating this like entertainment it has to acknowledge that this is serious we are talking about egregious breaches of the law including the criminal law and so Congress the mainstream media the president the incoming president they all need to wake up to themselves and realize the significance of what this reveals Tim I I I guess I don't expect you off the off the top to endorse and I would be shocked if you had done I don't expect and I never expected either of you to endorse The credibility of Jake Barber because it's been a proving process for me over literally years and one of the things that I've had to do is talk off the Record to people at a very high level in the military and I'm sure you've had this experience as well Tim and I'm not asking you to name names but there are good people I'm talking to in uniform Patriots who are in very senior roles in government who are praying that this story makes a change because they do genuinely want the public to know and they're they're absolutely terrified about the consequences of an unchecked National Security State being allowed to spend billions of dollars of taxpayers money without proper accountability and I think the intimations behind what's described by Jake and his team about the threat to their safety the fact that they feared that they would be murdered by their own employer or people associated with their employer that is a very grave implication so I guess Tim are you hearing the same desire I guess for for change inside the National Security establishment that you've come from yourself oh everywhere dozens of people and the list is growing every day Ross and in fact that's why I wrote the oped I did after I testified in the last Congressional hearing where I contrasted my testimony and that of John koslowski's and the stating the fact that the U the government is keeping UAP largely classified and I think it's time now for the public to know and I do that out of the sense of patriotism that you just mentioned Ross and as as does mer he served in the government too and we want we want the truth that's what we're pursuing here and I and I actually though I will go and say a few comments about Jake I am inclined to believe him because uh I don't think this sigh topic is weird or controversial as I guess most people would say think about it the CIA had the Stargate program and they've said or claimed to have disestablished it but like so many of those programs that have been uncovered they still continue most likely in a classified version with a different name and and and there's if you look at Joe mcmonagle's interviews the validity of the remote viewing phenomena which is telepathic and Sai is really 100% it's documented in scientific papers you have institutions like the department of perceptual studies I believe dos in University of Virginia which has rigorously examined the S phenomena for 50 years and document them there very well I think I think the reason we're not being more open as a public is because the government has tried to suppress this and cast a stigma on it including UAP so I think there is a connection there's a large body of scientific evidence behind it and what I'd like to see and I truly hope for Ross is that this interview is going to be one of many and the other operators or contractors that are working with Jake will come out or have worked with Jake and then we'll start really seeing a a a ground swell I my desire is that this really will lead to a new cernic Revolution for our understanding of reality where we're not the center of univers and we're not the only uh form of higher order intelligence life and just think about all the different research efforts in universities and institutes to explore the nature of this new intelligence it's just just and the technology and the again the sci phenomenon which is not being explored as wildely as it should be you know Tim the thing that really shocks me is I'm talking to people but both military personnel uh individual civilian personnel and particularly scientists inside the Legacy program I'm in the ridiculous situation whereas one of the few journalists that worked in mainstream media covering this issue with the exception of somebody like Merrick for example it's a very rare area to get involved in and I've had the most extraordinary people reach out to me and they are sitting watching this they're waiting with apprehension this weekend and they're terrified that there's not going to be a response from the new Administration they're skeptical they think president Trump will wimp it they think that there's every probability that like every president before him he's going to accept the lame National Security arguments that the public should be kept in the dark about this for another 30 or 40 years and that's certainly what The Gatekeepers are trying to do one of the things I've noticed by the way is there are trolls who are building Twitter accounts trying to use the algorithms of social media to run the public opinion on social media to try and direct adverse comments about Jake and we've been tracking it in fact we've been tracking it in quite a sophisticated way for the first time and we're already aware that there are people who are almost certainly connected to the intelligence Community who are involved in disinformation active disinformation to try and spread lies basically Bally about these people and about these allegations before the public even hear them it's fascinating to see a coordinated public campaign and I believe it's being run from sections of the defense intelligence community and if you remember Tim you'd know your law executive order 123 it forbids the running of intelligence operations against the American public by any intelligence agency in the United States and Mer you're probably aware of that as well I think the the implications of this story are enormous because what it suggests is that there has been an Intelligence Agency for whom Jake worked and acknowledged that he worked as a non-official cover basically working through a um a private Aerospace company and they are essentially administering a program which is being kept from Congress and from the knowledge of presidents that to me I think is the bravest implication behind what we've exposed today absolutely and and if if these allegations are all true we're looking at number one just as you said a constitutional crisis but also this this potential intelligence operation against American citizens right so you two strikes um nothing short if this is all true I mean you could easily see a church commission 2.0 right which is the famous Congressional committee that was stood up in the 70s to investigate um abuses by the intelligence Comm Community um you can easily see um something like that being stood up um as these whistleblowers continue to come forward and I I just want to make one one point to to to the you know your your listeners and your viewers Ross and and um and that is that I think it's easy to get lost in um the uh you know the hype around one whistleblower in this case four um but this is this is much broader right we've had shuck Schumer uh PR previously the speaker pardon me the the Senate Majority Leader put forward 64 pages of legislation that alleges exactly what uh Mr Barber alleges um and we've had uh Dave grush whistleblower go under oath to say the same thing we had Lou alzando go under oath to say the same thing um Admiral galette right on this call went under oath and I I I don't think you had firsthand knowledge but I think you testify to the fact that you believe that that this is all um that these alleged programs do exist and that that information extraordinary information is being hidden from the American public and it's not just those individuals we had very credible people in Congress senator Marco Rubio uh likely to be the um Secretary of State in the incoming uh Trump Administration sounds like he's going to sail through the confirmation process has said some extraordinary things and vouched for The credibility of these whistleblowers um so look it it it's it's easy to get wrapped up in one story and this is a huge story Ross again kudos to you um but let's let's keep the bigger picture in mind and and I just want to add one thing I I was I can I have confirmed with Dave grush um and again most of your listeners and viewers might know but briefly uh Dave grush was a former high level intelligence officer who um conducted a lawful investigation of of these alleged um retrieval and reverse engineering programs testified under oath that he had 40 witnesses that he built a case on over 40 years um and I spoke with with Dave and and he this is interesting he mentioned that uh Jake Barber is not is not one of his 40 Witnesses however um barar is clearly and all of the the three individuals that the operators that um corroborated his story at least vouched for him um are clearly high quality witnesses that are saying the exact same thing so unless somebody's writing some extraordinary fanfiction for to for who knows what end um this is something these are all allegations that we need to take extremely seriously precisely because we're hearing the same thing over and over and over again yeah let's uh let's then America spot on and I want to pile on that and address the the incoming Trump Administration as you pointed to in addition to secretary Rubio having spoken out about UAP we also have John rackliffe of course who's likely to be the CIA director if confirmed he's done the same and then Mike Waltz has also done that and he is likely to become the ne next national security adviser and so those are those are three real positive potential allies in this effort and and know a couple of other things and I can say this with authority because I was the Trump appointee uh that he is disruptive by Nature I think No One's Gonna argue that and and if anything could be more disruptive for the status quo it'll be UAP disclosure so there's an inclination there he's also uh has tended to stack his administration with innovators for example the next director of the office in science and technology policy Michael cros a good friend of mine an ally when I was in the administration he was the chief technology officer in the white house and I could see him looking at the the techn technology spin-off potential of this is being great and and the other thing and uh there is a desire there was in the last Administration there's desire in this one to show American leadership and I mentioned that in my Hill oped that I mentioned previous ly that that this is an issue where we really stand to do that in the whole in the world and I I think uh when opportunities are presented like that uh they're likely to be moved forward and so that that's actually a role I'm taking on I made this recommendation for the Trump Administration specifically in my oped and and as people start getting getting into office next week I'm going to be engaging them one one of the things with Tim I I I really admire you as such a senior retired military officer are taking the courageous step to speak out and a lot of people watching this and I know I've got friends who I spoke to before this program and they encouraged me they're in uniform very high levels and they they I they encouraged me to go ahead with the story one of the things I always do as an investigative journalist is I go to sources and I say look I've got this story for God's sake if there's something I need to know I know you know there's top secret SCI compartmentalized clearances there might be something I don't know for God's sake let me know Tim one thing I want to ask you a lot of people wrestling with the decision about whether they should come forward or not they're looking at you because you're you've taken such a strong leadership role in such an admirable way have you suffered blowback has this damaged you at all in your standing amongst your military peers have you suffered threats or intimidation of any kind for taking the stand that you've taken in so courageously speaking out and revealing your knowledge of the existence of this possible nhi phenomenon well the answer is yes and no Ross uh in fact I was at a professional society meeting this week and um few a few people I know talked about it but it was all in terms of support and otherwise my reputation as a scientists is really kind of unchanged because some of these communities in ocean science and Atmospheric science aren't NE necessarily following those this this topic r large so professionally know it's only been in in some of these media Outlets that these professional trollers as you mentioned whose credibility and integrity are uh near zero to me and who I really don't take any stock in that that that's been the only source of blowback and that's just going to happen it goes with the territory I testified in front of Congress probably 12 times in my life so it's it's just what comes with the territory I can handle it so Merrick help me here my friend you know the hill you know the politics what are those jelly backed weak politicians going to do when they get this story are they going to respond do you think there's going to be any change that Ross that is the the mil and I like the way you framed it thank you for that um uh I'll say it I'm down here in Australia you know so they can't they can't get at me down here that's right um look I mean if it were up to me this the every alarm Bell on the hill would be going off and every office should be going off um and and I again I fear that most people just there are there's in the government there's there's something called agenda inertia right there's always some other pressing issue there's always China there's always Ukraine there's always the Gaza potentially ceasefire there's always another issue and I can see how UAP um is is continually downgraded intentionally or not because there are other burning issues at play and that I fear and I'm going to go back to what I said earlier but I fear that people lose the big picture of where we are and what we what has happened over the last five six years in this um on this extraordinary topic much thank to thanks to both of you gentlemen so um I hope that people on on the hill staffers do not view this in isolation and realize that there is there is a heck of a lot more to this there are many other individuals that U have come forward already and that that Ross you you clearly are in touch with that are thinking about uh coming forward I I just want to quickly take a minute just to Echo Ross your um your your kind words about Admiral G de because he's demonstrated extraordinary leadership uh out of uniform um and as I think many people know um he took this very seriously uh when aviators off the east coast were observing in uh UAP um this is something that alarmed him and he is standing up for those guys that maybe because of stigma or because of a lack of process or procedure or what have you um were not able to stick up for their own air safety needs right their their own safety of flight needs so um a credit to to to you Admiral gyet for for bringing your voice I mean it's not everybody we have every day that we have a a chief meteorologist of the Navy I believe and and a former acting head of Noah which is just an extraordinarily important um institution and government agency so so thank you for for that well thank you American I'll I want to say it Kudos back to you for your courage to speak out I know you're taking the same risk but you you made a couple points and I I want to add to one of them about all the wrong that is in covering up this issue of UAP and another is a use of our taxpayer dollars if if any of our taxpayer dollars are being put forward to pay these contractors that are engaging in corporate Warfare uh they're a problem that is not how Americans want their tax dollars spent and so another opportunity that the incoming Trump Administration has is to restore trust in the government that because it is at an all-time low and just for for years it's been declining I think the last four saw a degree of dishonesty that uh shocked a lot of Americans and so there's a chance to change that and I think coming forward with UAP in a deliberate controlled fashion might go a long way to restoring that trust so Tim one of the things I've been wrestling with is an explanation of how something as monstrous as this kind of cover up could possibly be perpetrated without the public knowing about it without it being officially disclosed you've worked inside the the defense establishment how do they keep this sort of stuff secret I mean why hasn't it leaked before well this is very this is why your interview with Jake is so interesting to me because you you could tell without him coming out um completely the levels of compartment compartmentalization if you will how compartmented is that what I want to say uh that effort was he was just security and Logistics he didn't talk about the operators on the ground attaching the sling to the object or whatever the exploitation that's going on afterwards and wherever uh and so that that was interesting that just showed uh that that how that the compartmented nature of that is one reason that's been difficult to get out uh money power all those reasons uh that those are factors and uh and again I think someone else has said this before I have too that there are a lot of Technologies and and modes of operation and tactics techniques and procedures that the public does not know and we don't I don't want them to know uh in terms of how we conduct intelligence and Counter Intelligence that have not come out so we're not great but we have are pretty good in some areas about keeping things under wrap so it it doesn't surprise me however when you look at at what's being revealed now things like Roswell not being a hoax other UAP crashes occurring and we're seeing and hearing about largely being reported by uh terrific journalists like you uh I think we're seeing that that what's happened is things have come out however the government has done it very good job at stigmatizing and putting disinformation out to discredit the information that has been reported on the one thing I wrestle with is I said earlier how I really did I mean I went out of my way to give anyone a reason for me not to run this story you know is there something that's so sacran I be you pardon about the retrieval program that means that it shouldn't be revealed you know one of the arguments that I've had very weakly put to me by somebody quite Junior in the CIA was I suspect a speculative comment they suggested look maybe what this is all about is protecting technological advances that have been made using this technology that's been recovered and we don't want to show our adversaries that hand and Tim I'd like to get your comment on that I'm going to promote you you're the president you're sitting in the Oval Office you've just been you you've just been elected and a carping journalist like me from outside is begging with you to reveal the UAP program and the head of the CIA office of Science and Technology probably o walks in the door and he says Mr President if you reveal this you are going to blow open the biggest secret in American history and you will jeopardize the biggest technological advances of our time do you believe Tim Mr President that the disclosure of nhi the existence of a non-human intelligence is possible without compromising the kind of programs that we're talking about absolutely I do and that was the whole purpose of the Schumer Amendment the UAP disclosure act also called that and and and that it it put forward a process for the president to approve controlled disclosure and I I am absolutely on board with protecting technology Secrets National Secrets uh for National Security of of course yes but the public can know and should know that we are not alone and and uh we should be researching that and getting a better understanding of where we're at how are we going to advance uh with a national strategy of ignorance as Chris Mel would say and Merrick I'd like to get your view you're the vice president you've got to make the decision as well uh what what would you say to that I mean I'm really interested because at the heart of this there is this argument that continually is raised by Outsiders that the most plausible reason for the continuing cover up is the argument that it's a slippery slope that if you disclose the existence of nhi you then disclose inevitably the existence of these programs and I don't buy that on the level I know from my own sources that the Russians and the Chinese already know that we've recovered technology in fact I'm told that in the very early days of glasnost we actually collaborated with the Russians on a retrieval of a craft in Russia now of course things have Frozen since then and there is obviously hostility between Russia and and America and we are sadly on the brink at times of war or possible conflict but Merrick do you think that disclosing the existence of nhi would inevitably jeopardize National Security projects of enormous significance so assuming there is nhi and all these programs exist uh got to be a good journalist and and you know be objective here um I agree completely with Admiral gallet that no I think uh that that it can be done however however if these allegations of contractor on contractor firefights I mean if that if anything like that is is remotely accurate um the The Gatekeepers of these programs these alleged programs I can see them fighting too th nail because as they say the cover up often is worse than the crime right and and we're we're dealing with a massive Scandal so I can see why certain individuals would not would be fighting tooth and nail against disclosure to the point of potentially blackmailing or threatening politicians lawmakers and so on and so forth um but bottom line to answer your question um no I think that the two can be bifurcated and I I want to maybe just quickly touch on what I think putting on my my kind of National Security my geopolitical hat here um regardless of whether China or Russia have have recovered these craft and and the Senate intelligence committee put out language BAS basically suggesting that didn't make it into law but it it did come out of the the committee um we haven't had a single substantive discussion about the geopolitical ramifications of that announcement let alone the financial the the economic the social the right the cultural um but the geopolitical that's something that I I I grapple with and I I really struggle with because nobody has had that that indepth analysis conversation what does this look like globally how do how do our adversaries respond I don't are we all going to sing kubaya because we're not alone in the universe I don't know uh that hope is not a strategy right so um this this raises a host of questions and I suspect frankly that what I just discussed is a reason why a president or a vice president or whoever uh is a decision maker would be hesitant shall we say to disclose this to the public without having that that intensive um table top exercise that red team right that that exercise to to talk through what the ramifications of that disclosure are and how it's done I I suspect it's easier to keep the cover up and not have to reveal embarrassing secrets and Corruption and probably impropriety I mean we I think the fact the thing that's always fascinated me about this is Donald rumsfield literally one day before 911 reveals I think there's a two or three trillion I've forgotten the exact number two or three trillion dollars unaccounted for inside the Department of Defense and Auditors basically can't explain that incredible amount of money the implications that I'm hearing from many many people is that there are underground facilities that have been built to house these facilities I even know the locations of some of them um I've been exploring Witnesses who've told me that they've been inside those facilities I'm very interested in hearing from people who are aware of those facilities and the government needs to know that this is being talked about so if this is important National Security infrastructure they have to provide a very good reason very very quickly for why the public shouldn't be told this because I know a lot of people out there in UFO social media World they think everything should just be recklessly released and they think there should be catastrophic disclosure Full Speed Ahead and Damn the Torpedoes I don't agree with that I've Got Friends who've been injured in service because of information getting out and being publicized in a way that compromised them in a very dangerous situation overseas I can understand the need for sensitivity on National Security operations and it's important it's part of my ethical Duty as a journalist to pay respect to that and make sure that we we check it on the way through those are balances that need to be made but I I agree with both of you I do think that it's ridiculous for the continuing if it's true and I do believe it is that we are aware and have long been aware of the existence of a non-human intelligence engaging with this planet it's time to stop lying about it and the thing I find grave is that without naming them or embarrassing them there are public officials that have been induced by The Gatekeepers within the last few months to put out statements and to even give evidence to Congress flatly asserting that there's no evidence of this kind of extraterrestrial engagement with this planet and it may very well be they're playing with semantics maybe we know they're not extraterrestrial they're not off-planet maybe they're on planet as Tim sometimes suggests perhaps they're underwater or maybe they're interdimensional whatever they are I think we've got a right to know about them and I think the public impatience is going to mount as a result of today's story but I don't expect it to be the definitive moment but I'm certainly grateful to both of you for giving your contribution to Today's Show thanks to both of you thanks so much for having us okay so I'd now like to bring in scientist Dr Jim sigala to get his commentary and expertise on some of the things that Jake Barber has described in the story Jim sigala is a physicist engineer who's spent much of the last few years researching anomalous phenomena especially around around the the winter basement where the Skinwalker Ranch is located he's got a PhD in physics and advanced degrees in engineering he's been involved in anomalous phenomena research for decades and he's got many connections with most of the well-known scientists in this field and most interestingly of course he worked very closely with the um orap bass program studies that were run out of the defense intelligence agency um uh the Skinwalker Ranch where a lot of experiences reported anomalous phenomenon so Jim welcome to reality check I'm obviously really Keen to hear from you whether you think there's any similarities between the kind of things that Jake baras described the anomalous engagements with whatever this object was this craft was and um also the lesions and the injuries that he's describing yeah so it was actually quite fascinating I watched this this uh the whole film it was actually quite interesting as you get to certain segments of it you say okay I've seen that before yep yep I've seen that before and it's all very and one of the the nicest things is that somebody put it in the context of somebody with boots on the ground handling something that was obviously anomalous or unknown in nature where most of the interactions that I've investigated with other scientists there was really the actual object that created the phenomena wasn't wasn't local it was someplace El you know it might have been buried it might have been someplace else but this time it was something that was very very local but what's great is that you get the same kind of reaction the emotional reaction from the people and the physical reaction of your physiology changing or your medical medical um injuries coming coming uh to bear so let's just have a quick look at the clip that we're talking about I think this is the one where Jake describes the experience of escorting an unknown object in a box from somewhere in Africa back to the United States let's just take a quick look to refresh our memory of that clip we transported what we called mystery boxes all the time I have no idea it could have been empty it probably wasn't empty but we don't know what was inside the boxes and what were you told if somebody tried to seize that box what were your orders uh we we maintained the authority to use lethal Force anyone tried to seize those boxes so whatever that box was it was extremely valuable to the US government that's correct and uh after this particular Mission me and everyone on my team got extremely sick like physically ill in the hospital um within you know weeks after this I lost every hair on my body and I also lost the skin on my arms so the Skin's actually falling off your body yeah like not just falling off it it was lopping off with within a couple of days like a severe sunburn um I ended up developing a severe heart murmur that I never had before so Jim what's your reaction to what Jake describes there well it seems to me that he was in contact with some type of energy you might say with that left a medical footprint on his body and that's not something that you can manifest in your head so obviously something actually did happen to him there was no question that something did and there was a lot of other things that happened to him during that period that he narr that in his narratives that led me to believe that you know what he you know he was very Earnest about this I mean so I believe this actually did happen to him there was nothing construed and to have those things happen was uh you know very similar to other other types what would cause for example skin to literally peel off somebody's body what what kind of exposure causes that so sometimes radiation will do it so if you ever have any problem with your skin radiation they do um electrons so they'll actually shoot electrons at your skin and get very very localized um radiation deposits into your skin which would cause it to have local lesions on your skin and sometimes you get you know enough of it and it will start separating from the dermis it'll start actually separating and coming and peeling off and I've had many patients describe this and show this and talk to Medical Doctors and actually this was something that was uh pretty prevalent when people actually came into contact with dangerous type of objects the the other thing that Jake described were lesions on his body uh have you had that experience yourself with Witnesses and other experiences who've been exposed to anous yeah so what happens is that as your body absorbs these this energy it actually does something to it so your DNA absorbs it it actually will affect your DNA it'll break it apart and turn it into almost like a cancer type of thing where it'll actually have a reaction so you'll get the dimples you get the bubbles um it'll almost look like a herpes but then when they look at it and they actually biopsy it it's not a herpes so you you'll get these lesions on your on your skin luckily most of these things dissipate after maybe you know a week or so but sure enough there's a lot of people that have reported that they get these lesions and you know they're of course Very frightened every nobody wants to have these things sure there's a few photographs that you very kindly sent us before we went on air can you talk to those what do they show so those are instances where people have first of all witnessed something anomalous like they looked up in the sky there was something floating by there was an orb there was a UFO craft they were never alone most of those people were not alone other people seen it but these particular people um came back like a day or two later or actually 24 hours later and started developing these bubbles on their skin so these these these areas these blotchy areas that have um these these these pimple areas almost like they very very locally burned or actually had a radiation treatment very locally and then of course that led to um you know discolored urination um all the all the signals that you get or all the symptoms you get when you have exposed or absorb some type of radiation one of the things that are very interesting he talked about his heart murmur um one of the interesting things that happens when you have an interaction with these these entities and you have this energy that's coming from them your body reacts in a very very Sinister way you're you know you get into a fight fight flight type of thing where your immune system kicks up your your uh your capillaries uh shrink so your blood pressure goes up um then you start getting into this whole autoimmune Pro uh reaction and when you get an auto autoimmune reaction and your body's trying to fight something it doesn't know what it is because it doesn't actually it can't understand what this energy or this thing is coming into your body but it could affect your autoimmune responses affect your your heart valves um to the point where after a certain period of time they could develop a murmur so when I heard that I said yeah that that's definite because then I said at this point he definitely got something into his body that the that body just did not understand and it caus this reaction so that's when I said that's pretty genuine what was happened to him wow so you've seen these hot MERS before yeah we have several people that actually went away in fact there's a great study right now that I'm working on with another another scientists where we're relating people that have these experiences with onset of autoimmune diseases that they're they're having one of them actually you know leads to problems with the the cardiac system so yes I I've I've seen a lot of this I mean there's no there's no suggestion there that the energy that's caused these injuries is being intentionally applied I mean do you get the feeling it's like an incidental consequence of exposure to an object that might not be intentional or do you think that we're being the people that are being Zapped are being deliberately Zapped no I think it's actually to be honest with you I think something is trying to communicate with them I think somebody's trying to give them something intelligent some people can interpret it some people can't some people just think it's like oh my God what's going on I got a headache um the other people actually say oh I just got a message from somebody or I feel about this thing um Jake actually actually said you he felt great he he felt like all of a sudden he felt like amazing I think that might be the message so you know you're standing in the path of some kind of communication that we don't understand from some type of entity we don't understand what it does to our outside body leaves lesions it leaves marks it leaves some you know medical Footprints what it does to to our internal body it gives us you know it gives us feelings and it makes us interpret things and our brain our particular brains um try to rationalize everything so you end up feeling amazing or you feel scared or you feel you know so what happened to Jake is definitely something that somebody was trying to give him information so let's roll back a little bit I mean I I think when I first met Jake the the biggest issue I had with his story was not actually the issue of the United States government secretly being involved in retrieving non-human intelligence spacecraft I I I think I could cope with that the the the the big thing for me that I found very confronting and it's taken me two years to come to terms with it is this idea of psychic or psionic engagement by human consciousness with some kind of non-human technology uh we don't even know if it is a technology we don't know if these craft soal called our craft they look like craft but can you even begin to try to explain to us what what's going on there are you familiar at all with the idea of the human mind making a connection with some kind of non-human phenomenon like that yeah so I think it it's a conclusion at this point that whatever this is is not a radiation Source it is a it is a information source that actually happens to be absorbed by your body in a r look that looks like radiation but I think primary is that whatever this is is trying to communicate to you and so I've done a study over the past three or four years uh through the Institute with Hal vutov where we've actually put people in a situation where they were in areas that have UFOs or have uaps present and we took their narratives out and also looked at the surrounding signals around them and sure enough they always claimed and they their narrative state that you know I felt like I was being instructed to do something or I felt like I was being told that I should be doing something or I was told that something is amazing and having a wonderful period um they would go sometimes into a catatonic state where they would wake up hours later um feel amazing or or just feel completely drained sometimes and you know feel that they've been in contact with something so what what Jacob was actually describing is not something that's unique to him what's unique to him is that the object that made this happen was right next to him and that was actually quite revealing so had you heard the T term psionic before I have in in sense of a science science fiction type of thing where you know people can communicate and there's telepathy and things like that and it has a bad stigma to it where people say oh you know you're just a bunch of crazies thinking you could do telepathy but everybody I think that if you talk to guys like Gary Nolan and things like that they'll claim that everybody has some form of ability to reach outside of their mind and connect with other things I think that nature in itself if we had this little bit of ability to go outside of our mind it would definitely evolve it and make it part of our you know initial being because that helps in our fight flight type of uh reactions so can you talk it all to the science that might be behind how the human brain human consciousness could possibly engage if it's real with a non-human intelligence of some kind sure we have if you think of what our brain is it's a it it is like a big ionm moving uh machine where you have all these ions What ions are is these charged particles that move through your body and anytime you have a Charged particle it could be affected by outside sources and but what's interesting a Charged particle these particles could be int angled with other particles that might not be local to them it might be outside of their head it might be on the other other side of the Earth but we know for a fact that things like that these particles get entangled so if you have a neuron and that neuron happens to Fire and that maybe that neuron fires and it says oh you're looking at a flower right now but that neuron is attached to or entangled with somebody else that has a different feeling or an entity that might be able to control that and they have this like initial blast to you you might say oh look at look at that flower but there's no flower there so there's this entanglement going on between you know neurons and brains and all of these ions that are flowing in your head but I guess what I have difficulty with I mean it does sound like science fiction and the interesting thing is if if it's true if what Jake is saying is true the US Air Force never stopped operating the Stargate program I mean you talked about Hal put off there I mean of course one of our friends Hal was long ago in the 1970s through SRI involved in groundbreaking research with people like yeah sure yeah looking at the whole issue of telepathy and psychic phenomena my understanding is that um and of course this has been made into a Hollywood movie The George Clooney movie The Men Who Stare at Goats yes my understanding is that um the whole thing was poo pooed and um and played down but what really shocked me when I started doing the background research for this story I looked at the history of the CIA Stargate program and even presidents at the time President Carter for example were acknowledging that that there had been successful use of things like remote viewing technology to assist in the in the recovery of an aircraft in one case um it does appear that while you've got the official position in in modern science is that telepathy psychic phenomena that kind of uh non-local engagement of the human mind with something external it it's dismissed as nonsense and yet it's quite clear if you look at the succession of documents in the CIA archive they've continued that research over many many years they never stopped uh is this something you're familiar with what do you what do you know about the whole science of the idea that the human brain could possibly engage with something outside of the human brain other than just normal verbal or written communication so ironically um it h I worked for half and his Institute in Austin for 11 years and one of the experiments that he asked me to do was he said if I took two sentient objects and I separate them and I actually I'm sorry if I took two sentient objects and I had them together for a little while and then I separated them and I and I convinced the other ones that there there is no physical connection like I put them in a faraday cage I put a barrier and I do something sinister to one of them will the other one react or if I do something really nice to one of them will the other one react so we took um epithalamus um cells and we you know put them together and they let let them entangle separated them and maybe we we put a little um you know some Clorox or something bad into one of them and after enough trials we found out that we can get two cells to communicate through through through a barrier through either a faraday cage meaning that there's no Electro electromagnetic signals or you know we had them inclosed so there's no chemical signal no f f fans or anything um but we got them to communicate we had enough statistics to show that there was actually communication so that's suggesting that there is something about sentient life including intelligent human life that has a capacity to communicate that we don't yet understand I'm just wondering it's a long shot but have you watched or listened to the telepathy types at all which is this new I did not I've been I've been advised to I they they said it was very interesting and um and I what I'd like to do is I like to kind of stay more down into the to the actual you know how the mechanisms that happen as opposed to how people are actually implementing this great science it's funny you know because when I first got into the Jake story it's a bit like alien abductions I don't for the life of me know how to report the Alle the allegations of alien abductions and it's one of those stories that I don't stay away from it because there are many good people I'm talking to who tell me it's happened to them but for the life of me I don't know how to report it and and similarly with the allegations of psionic or psychic phenomena being behind how we are flying actually operating in some cases or or perhaps remotely controlling these craft or at least communicating with them that that has implications which are abs absolutely extraordinary um but from what you're telling me you wouldn't rule it out as a possibility no I so the mechanism I I think that we can definitely say that it happens what the actual underlying mechanism is it entanglement are we is our ion channels being entangled that we don't know because we've never actually been able to isolate that it's a more of a hypothesis do you find it plausible that sections of the defense and intelligence Community could have secretly worked on Psychic phenomena like this I mean the implications of this are that there are people psychic Sonic assists as they call them who are working secretly with the US government I'm told allegedly a lot of them are people of indigenous Native American background do you find that even plausible a secret like that could be kept in this day and age oh that's you know I have spent a lot of time in the government and it's like everything is um you know isolated and there's a lot of pockets within the uh the agencies that do special projects and I know that I've been on some with the DARPA um initiatives and things like that where you don't talk about this with anybody so I would believe that there are these projects out there that might be looking at this though but you know do they matriculate up to the top I don't know and have you ever heard stories of a retrieval program of non-human craft yourself during your work with bass or oret sure with how I mean how that's what he spent 15 years trying to do is get the technology so he he been you know I went with him to Congress um you know and I sat there in meetings with him trying to explain to the people that the Senate our service committee and those kind of committees uh what we were we're trying to do and trying to get some of these items because that's what how's lab was all set up to do was was to investigate this so yeah we I've been in uh watched how frustratingly trying to get a hold of this stuff what do you think is going to come out of Jake Barber's allegations you've seen the story what do you think will be the blowback the the result well I think the government's going to have to step back and say look you know I think this stuff is starting to look a little real because now you've got a guy who we put somebody put In Harm's Way They and actually had the same type of ailments that you would see for all the other claims that are of anomalous uh Origins uh but now this guy was actually recorded inside of a vehicle with something that he didn't understand Underneath Him and had very similar symptoms as uh you would get if if um you know all the the millions of claims that are out there in the world one of the other things about Jake's experience particularly when he had some kind of psychical connection with the phenomenon is an overwhelming emotion a strong sense of emotional engagement are you familiar with that have you had that before from other Witnesses oh yeah so again we had this very very long very detailed study where we basically had you know you know well over 30 people on a day-to-day basis giving their interpretations of what they're going through on a day-to-day on their during their day and a lot of the reports came back you know some some very Sinister some very euphoric but it was all about the connection they had to some other things so there is this this this narrative that people stick to where they do get very very emotional and when your body receives information that it really doesn't understand because it is kind of a scary if you think about it nobody's talking to you I mean some people get ringing in the ears and and sometimes they their eyes get blurry because it affects your Optical nerves uh but it's a scary thing sometimes but you know the fallacy that it's always the sinister mean thing is very false because more than half the time the reports come back and and it's euphoric and they're very very happy about it you know they've had a very good time it's very Awakening they learned things they learned other languages believe it or not I mean so this is something that I've had a lot of experience with thousands of of narratives from people and they all sounded very much like what Jacob was talking about so you're saying that people have learned other languages what does that mean yeah so there was a quite a few um instances where they actually started doing some writings um through so they go into they would go into a state they would wake up you know like several hours later look down and they've written this like entire document that they had no idea what they wrote they would bring it to like a linguist and say you know what the heck is this and find out it's an ancient language that they would have never idea never had an idea what they could never learned that do you know it's funny I I suspect the Skeptics and the debunkers will will have a field day with the whole idea of Psych IAL connections with non-human intelligence and they'll mock it you're not so quick as a scientist you're a hardned scientist who seen this paranormal phenomena up close you think it's real don't you well it's I'm not saying it's real what I'm saying is that whatever is happening to these people is not a u is is some information coming into their head in some form that we don't understand and their brain is interpreting it it's not not something that they're making up in their head they're not being psychic within themselves they're getting some signal from the outside there's no way that these people have all these reactions and of course we put equipment on the on their bodies and then we record things and then we find out during these episodes where they have these encounters there are changes in the electromagnetic signals the gamma signals all these signals in their presence indicating that something some Vector you know a vector something is coming into their body to give them this information there's just been very recently of course an extensive investigation into alleged anomalous Health incidents involving defense and intelligence Personnel who been exposed to um phenomena nobody quite knows where it's coming from and it follows years of resistance from the defense department to the whole idea that there are any real physical injuries and it's obvious that there's been dissent within government about what the public should be told or whether any admissions should be made at all but I mean do you find it plausible that Jake's injuries for example or the injuries of the people that you've seen could have been caused by a foreign adversary using Direct Energy direct energy weapons of some kind yeah so if you go back to the Havana syndrome obviously that's a big thing where you had people that were in a contained area and they had symptoms very very similar to the symptoms that you would see from somebody out in the in the world you know just interact with some phenomena where they would have ear aches they would have nose bleeds they would have all of these symptoms that are very very similar to what you're finding um if you put them through MRIs they have very similar types of lesions in their head that are get developed just like people get when they're you know they're they're out here so this is um you know this you know just because you know it happens to a government agency doesn't mean that it's necessarily from a foreign entity it could be something that we're all experiencing everybody's experiencing but it just happened to be concentrated there so when it comes down to actually investigating these things I think they starting to take a little bit better picture of it and go ahead Ross well I was just wondering I was just wondering if the explanation for these Havana syndrome am anomalous Health incidents might be that it's something anomalous rather than a foreign adversary well if you look at the National Academy of Sciences report that came out that explained that there was an actually another better report that came out afterwards they said it was electromagnetic in nature some some radiation beam from some entity and they said unknown entity and they actually said I don't think they actually said that it was ever going to be from some foreign weapon or something like that they just said I don't know what the origin is but it was definitely this okay so if I take away what you've said to us today Jim whilst you're not saying it's real you don't dismiss outright the idea of a psychical engagement by the human brain with some kind of non-human technology if it exists no because it we're you know I've seen so many patients that get this instruction they get this communication from the outside world we read signals that something just happened we don't know what it is they interpret it as a in a certain way and they report it instantly they say you know I just had this premonition I just saw this thing and then we get these uh data coming from our our instruments to say yeah something actually was present the exciting thing I'll tell you about the implications of Jake Barber's skywatcher initiative that he talked about in the show they are now collaborating with the pentagon's UFO office arrow and uh I I can reveal that that Arrow has expressed an interest in accompanying the sky Watcher team on one of their attempt summonings of a UAP and uh I wouldn't be surprised at all if they're there on one of the first experiments and I I have to say it reflects a a refreshing openness on the part of the new Arrow director Dr John klosi who unlike his predis Dr Shan Kirk Patrick is showing a genuine scientific curiosity a bit like you Jim sagala maybe we should get you along on the same thing as well sure well something tells me Dr Jim sigala that as a scientist who showing a commendable curiosity and actually doing the work to make an assessment of what's really there you're way ahead of the pack so thank you so much for giving us your wisdom and um we'll look forward to talking to you in the future thank you very much Ross thanks for watching go to join nn.com to find newsnation on your television provider and please don't forget to click that red subscribe button to ensure you get more of news nation's unbiased and fact-driven news coverage