Jacques Vallée "UFO, Trinity, Aliens, Religions, Consciousness"

Transcript

why do you think should be bother by your for  topic for general public in research why bother   about that the the the reason I got involved was  that I was uh I really had no choice because I   had seen this you know as as an adolesent at a  time when I was forming my ideas about the world   and I couldn't think after that of of anything  more important than to know what that thing was   because my first job was at Paris Observatory 

where I had access to uh you know private data   from astronomers who had never reported before  and uh I had also access to some of the early   reports of the French Air Force you know where and  they they had seen all those so to me that said   that the idea that the Witnesses are lying you  know was not was not true I I I knew it was not   true and that the the idea that there were only a  few cases that wasn't true we had just started to   look at a small sample and that the real Universe 

of data was much much bigger so the it the other   thing that um intrigued me was that it related to  so many different fields you know to of course to   biology to you know to medicine to Evolution our  Evolution on the earth what does it mean if there   are creatures that uh can breathe our air and they  they are 3 feet tall uh you know coming out of an   object where we don't understand the propulsion  system I mean after that um you know I can go   through a career in science and I've gone through 

actually two careers you know one in science one   as a as a internet entrepreneur and then a third  career as a venture capitalist for you know where   I've started a number of companies that has the  fact that I was public with my observation and   my interest in UFOs has never stopped me the last  fund for which I was a general partner was a $65   million fund for NASA the people at Nasa who  entrusted us with the money knew that I had   written 12 books about UFOs it didn't stop them 

because they they could tell that I was serious   about it and that I had done it you know within  the constraints of science you know and within   the discipline of science uh again uh the field  is open to speculation but as a scientist there   are only certain things that you can do if you  want to learn something so that's what kept me   going and to my I was surprised that I never had  you know uh it was was never an obstacle in my   career but you know what I found in dealing with 

um people managing money with the bankers with   the Venture capitalists the the millionaires are  skeptical the billionaires are not okay that's the   difference I'm K you in in this phenomena UFO  and you have the first sighting it was 955 and   you mention the book it has maybe affecting your  personal and professional life till today what   kind of question you mind maybe personally and  professionally bigger question or open question   so the I had an observation citing when I was 

about 14 14 or 15 in uh a small town close to   Paris um and yes it it made an impact on me I I  was studying physics and astronomy I wanted to be   an astronomer I was excited about all the the new  findings in science and so on and uh but then one   day I was uh helping my my father do some work  inside the house my mother was out in the garden   beautiful afternoon sunshine blue sky no cloud in  the sky and my mother called us to because she saw   something in the sky that uh she had never seen 

before and I joined her in the yard in the garden   and what I saw was a disc that was motionless um  was apparently about half a kilometer away over a   church uh in in that in that town and there was  a small Dome on top of the the disc you know a   classical flying sorer this was in 1955 uh a year  after a major wave of cases uh all over France and   Italy and Spain and so on over Western Europe and  um the it was not scary it was fascinating and I I   looked at it and the object eventually moved away 

without the sound the next day I spoke to a friend   of mine from school who was a very good physics  student student and I told him about it and he   said he had seen the same thing from his house  which was um about another half kilometer away   from us higher up the hill and he had looked at it  with binoculars I asked him to draw it and what he   drew was exactly what I had seen so there was no  question about the object there was no question   there was something there and we did not know what 

it was um my father told me that well there were   many this was a time when there were there was a  lot of experiments with new types of aircraft you   know the jet engines and you know the jet fighters  and and of course the P the first passenger Jets   were were being developed so there were lots of  prototypes that people and he said maybe that's   just a new a new thing and we will know about  it later when it's revealed well um it was never   revealed I mean we still don't know what that 

kind of thing could be and uh even in in terms   of aerodynamics the dis is fundamentally unstable  structure as a know as an aircraft so um when I   I grew up and uh you know achieved my degrees in  science and my first job was at Paris Observatory   tracking the early satellites you know in the  early 60s 1960s 61 um there was still nothing   like what I had seen and then I found out that  a number of scientists A number of astronomers   had also seen things like that and they never 

reported it so the idea that scientists never   see UFOs was wrong scientists were seeing UFOs but  they were afraid of the stigma of reporting it of   being thought to be strange because they had these  Visions the same thing of course for pilots and   Pilots um you know would be sent to a number of  tests and they would be sent to see psychiatrists   if they reported seeing something like this so  I discovered that there was a lot of information   by trained observers by scientists by technical 

people by people in Aeronautics and you know of   course by astronomers as well that had never been  reported and to me that changed everything so I   never I I decided never to hide the fact that I  had seeing this you know uh that never stopped me   in my career in science people recognized that I  was telling the truth about something I had seen   for which they didn't have an explanation and it  never stopped me in my career um especially when   I moved to the to the United States U my first 

job in the US was in Texas at the University of   Texas and as at the observatory there and we  were working on NASA projects and I was told   uh you know if you want to continue working on  UFOs on your own time be feel free to do that   you can use a computer you know you can use the  facilities to to to do this research uh on your   own okay of course I was not paid to do that but I  could do I had the freedom to do it on my own mhm   great great so maybe I want ask you the question 

to be realistic the UFO like the you of course we   go for the science eved the material let's let's  be covered later but now the question is there's   physical component and non-physical aspect of  this subject and that's why some people get   ridiculed but there is also confusion that there  are unidentified flying object the question I want   to ask you do you think this is really something  could be developed by advanced technology in AOSP   company or other countries or do you think it is 

something as believed exterterestial like vehicles   or something we not aware of it be something  like illusion like something in Consciousness   as human being who saw this phenomena so there  is many component here which one do you think   is relevant since you highlighted that it's  like control system or control mechanism and   if you can also explain why do you what do you  mean by control system mechanism well there are   many things in in your question um I don't want 

to speak from the point of view of belief because   I want to think about the problem as a scientist  so in science you make a hypothesis you look at   the data whether it matches the hypothesis or not  and then you you go on revising you know what your   your tentative conclusions about phenomenon and  of course you cannot do that alone you can only do   that with a team of colleagues who know more than  I do about physics you know about about Optics   about Consciousness and so on so that is what I've 

tried to do and as you may know i' I've had the   opportunity to to join teams that that have been  doing that systematically you know Gathering data   from all over the world so the what you can say  about the phenomenon is the a lot of the data is   genuine there is very little jokes or hoaxes and  so on and and those can be screened fairly fairly   easily most of the data is genuine it comes from  people who very often have been affected in their   life by what they saw as I was um then you have 

to look at the first you know the first attack   is on the physics you know do we have traces  do we have materials do we have physical proof   that that something has been there and now we have  hundreds of cases where there were traces on the   ground that have been studied you know later we'll  talk about the cases in New Mexico you know the   case especially in Soro where which is a has been  investigated by the US Air Force uh and to some   extent by the FBI where the traces were preserved 

and materials were were saved we don't understand   how an object could have landed there in those  conditions and could have left those traces so   the question if if the phenomenon appeared today  uh if it started with the limits for example the   observations of the aircraft carrier limits  and there was nothing before you could say   well maybe there is a a country that's ahead of  us maybe it's Chinese maybe it's Russian uh you   know because the you could you could uh produce 

the electronic images you know with the kind of   Technology we have now so it could have been  something like that although we don't believe   that that's the case because there were other you  know other conditions of observations but but you   could speculate about that but when you look at  cases in the 1980s the 1960s the 1940s you know   like um you know like Trinity uh in those days no  country on Earth would have had the capability to   build something like that the phenomenon has 

been consistent physically you know it centers   on relatively small objects objects with size of  this room you know maybe 40 feet 50 feet 100 feet   in size uh that weigh several tons you know 10  tons 15 Tons uh that leave deep traces on on the   ground that leave materials behind and and we  have tracks now infrared photographs and films   and so on of those so there is an abundance of  physical data so the other question that you   pose which is I think very relevant is what about 

human consciousness what we see what the witness   sees and describes is it really what the object  is or the is the object really maybe belongs to   a different category of objects you know here look  at all the the devices we're using we're using you   know Advanced microphones Advanced cameras and  so on we can manipulate images so what people   see may not be people don't see the rest of the  studio they don't see if there are other people   here they don't so that's the same thing of a 

witness who is surprised by an observations he   or she may not be aware of all the components and  that to me that's where science comes in that's   where we we need to become not simply to get the  witness to fill out a questionnaire you know but   we need to know a lot more and that's what I've  been doing you know actually all over the world   in the US in France but uh you know also uh in in  the Soviet Union in the days of the sovet Union   and in Argentina in Brazil and Mexico uh in Costa 

Rica and so on uh looking across cultures at how   people were impressed by what they saw and how  they reported it and what strikes me is that this   is a a constant across all the different cultures  all the different languages people are affected in   the same way and they describe it pretty much in  the same way words so that is one of the one of   the most interesting aspects of the phenomenon  so it takes psychologist sociologists and and   physicists to to work together and then maybe a 

few computer scientists like me um there is a I'm   in France today because we're preparing a meeting  of the cnes you know the French space agency which   is government agency is organizing a meeting in  tulus at their headquarters with six different   countries you know um Holland uh Sweden uh the UK  France of course Germany Spain and Italy you know   to compare notes about the phenomenon so it's now  recognized by scientists you know especially space   scientists that there is a phenomenon that has the 

same appearance and the same capabilities the same   parameters all over the world so it's time now for  science to really get involved great so maybe I'll   just confirm you have L speculation that some  Aerospace company hold advanced technology you   it is unlikely to you to think that they have this  kind of advanced technology working that you don't   think that's the case right the again I I it's  not what I think it's what the witnesses tell   me the what the witnesses tell me and what we're 

recording is a type of object that doesn't seem   to be um uh to operate under Gravity the way  we understand gravity as you know in physics   gravity is one of the big unresolve problems in  physics um the general relativity and Quantum me   mechanics uh are in contradiction in the subject  of U you know the the theory of gravity and we   certainly don't have anything that could weigh  20 tons and could just leave the ground without   a noise hover in the air and disappear on the 

spot disappear you know without going away just   vanish in midair we don't have any capability of  doing that interesting so what do you mean about   a control system or mechanism for someone first  some listening about this hypothesis that you   told this phenomena is more like control system  what do you mean by that so my my main approach   is using uh what I know and what I've developed  in computer science and computer science can can   be of of help to other types of of scientist 

by looking for patterns across across cultures   across time and across space so that's what I've  been trying to bring to the problem to to to bring   to my colleagues now the when when I look at the  structure of the phenomenon it's a series of very   intense waves you know intense concentrations of  cases over a particular area for say three months   for example and then it it tends to disappear and  then a couple of years later there is another wave   another peak of observations somewhere else in 

the world and we've been documenting these waves   or these peaks of observations in country after  country after country all over the world for the   last 70 years now the only thing that this  resembles is um what the psychologist which   is called a a pattern of reinforcement if you  you know if if you give a a banana to to to a   chimp you know they every time the the chimp does  a particular test you know and is successful with   the test like the you know the monkey will push 

a button for example and you give it a reward if   you do that every time after a while the learning  will stop learning what button the animal has to   push well it's the same thing for humans you know  we learn certain things we learn certain things in   in school and we are rewarded by degrees and you  know by uh a better salary when we grow up if we   if we learn properly what we've been taught but  there is a limit to what we can teach using that   kind of reward a better kind of reward is uh U 

doesn't reward every type of right Behavior the   the the way to enhance the behavior of learning  is to do it randomly so every time a child for   example does does something good uh you might  give a reward to the child but uh there are also   times when the child did it right and you don't  give her reward to make sure that the the the   learning is embedded deeply in the Consciousness  so this is you know straightforward psychology   this is not something I I've invented this is 

well known since the 1930s you know 1940s um   in in psychology books but that seems to be what  the phenomenon does you know it it doesn't mean   that it's teaching us something but it means  that we have to analyze it not one observation   at a time when people do but we have to look at  the patterns and we have to look at the how the   P patterns behave in time and in space so to me  you know in the US right now everybody is talking   about the limits because you know it's a you know 

there are lots of people involved many airplanes   the the most modern airplanes that the country has  you know and a very very highly trained pilots who   are obviously telling the truth about what they've  seen okay and what they've seen is different from   anything else that they've seen okay and it's  recorded by radar and it's regarded recorded by   very very good infrared cameras that are used in  combat so uh that is important but to me that's   not enough uh you cannot base a conclusion on 

that a scientific conclusion on that you have   to look for other cases like it and in fact there  are other cases like it in the archives of other   countries and also in the in the old archives of  the US Air Force for example but nobody looks at   that because we you know we live in a in a culture  that's only interested in what happened yesterday   okay uh that's based on television of course and  on the movies and so on where we're very we have   very little memory about what has happened over 

a long time and I think that's where people like   me can make a contribution because we've been  developing those databases you know in several   countries for a very long time and we can look  for those correlations yeah interesting may w't   ask you about the Tic Tac you you mentioned this  example and we really saw that's happening uh   very interesting very interesting and there's many  question pop up here but there's two possibility   maybe advanced technology which we think we don't 

have it still like the gravity component or maybe   it's religious experience like something some  people like I read comments like is this like   demons Angels that's aspect or may be something  extal technology maybe the first question why   this happening I mean it is not that frequently  happen happening it's not many cases you can   correct me but why do you think if we have the two  possibility like something religious experience or   spiritual or maybe something like the possibility 

extra of Technology why is this happening I mean   what's the benefit behind that if we have the two  scenarios um in of course in developing a database   if you do the job properly you you cannot stop  with just the physics you want to know what are   the surrounding conditions you know what are the  patterns what how is the the human being the human   witness affected by what he or she has seen very  often um I I was working with cases where children   were involved and children are very good observers 

because they don't have a precon ceed idea of what   they will see uh in many parts of the world uh  if you see something very unusual especially   if there are creatures involved if there is a  form of life you're right people will think in   religious terms or in demonic terms okay and so  I I have uh I I've been careful to um interview   people in that you know in that range and also  to look at religious apparitions for example   the apparitions of the Virgin uh not simply in 

Catholic countries but there have been apparitions   of a virgin in Egypt for example there have been  operations in uh you know in other parts of the   world there were operations in uh in Latin America  at the time of uh you know the Conquistadors in to   South America or Central America and I have been  I've tried I'm not a specialist of course in in   the interpretation of religious Traditions but  I if I look at it purely on the part of uh from   from the point of view of the information and 

you know stripping away the belief people are   free to believe to attach a belief to what they  have seen and we all do that okay especially in   terms of Crisis or in terms of being faced with  something unknown you go back to a belief system   which is a human a normal human behavior but when  you look at the just the physical characteristics   the operations of the Virgin at Fatima for  example in Portugal and there were a number   of them with increasing intensity an increasing 

number of witnesses they it at first were three   children at the end there were 80,000 people  watching the the operation I've gone to Fatima   and I'm placing myself in the same conditions  they would have seen uh at the same place uh i'   I've tried to do that across cultures you know uh  I've had the the opportunity to travel to Saudi   Arabia for example in my in my work there were  u a conference on uh the future of industry and   the future of business a few years ago in Riyad 

where I was invited as part of the panel and uh   the I I spoke to people I I knew there in Saudi  Arabia about the tradition of the Jin well the   Jin can take many forms they can be material they  can leave traces they can also be invisible they   can also move things in ways that seem magical so  there is a preexisting framework in our cultures   you know both in the western culture and you know  in the in the Muslim or and Arab Middle Eastern   cultures and also in Russia and also in China 

and also in Japan about uh these other forms   of life that's really interesting maybe I'll  ask you before closing the religious part and   going to physics and material which is really  interesting did you have any correlation with   the Vatican I think that's one of the question  people asking if Vatican holds some evidences   for something like what we mention do you have  any involvement with the Vatican here so I've   had no direct contact with the with the Vatican 

uh I've worked with uh researchers in in the US   who actually went to the Vatican and discussed the  subject with uh with know with officials there the   my understanding I I cannot speak for the Vatican  but my understanding is that there is a a a new   approach to this kind of experience this kind of  sighting uh within the church today uh that um   is is open to the idea that there could be you  know intelligent races throughout the Universe   now that of course raises a question of U of Dogma 

you know I I I know the the notion of Dogma is not   as important now as it was before but there is a  question of belief and of course for a long time   the belief certainly when I went to church as a  as a young Catholic boy you know the belief was   that um we had been created by by God you know as  a as a unique um form of of life and intelligence   and uh that the you know the Earth was special in  that sense the the the Bible um says seems to say   something different it seems to say that you know 

the the legions of God came from throughout the   Universe and so on so that's that opens the the  the idea that there are there is a higher level   of Consciousness throughout the Universe uh the  current pope has been very clear in saying that   if if he met an extraterrestrial and that  extraterrestrial wanted to to be baptized   that he would baptized baptize it you know so uh  there is a a profound evolution of of belief um   same thing within I think within the public for 

a long time you know the public was uh uh scared   of the subject that may have been a reason why  the subject was kept so Secret in in the US that   you know there was a a very strong religious uh  presence especially in Congress for example that   did not want to infringe on religious traditions  and religious freedom in in the United States so   the the subject was was seen as something that was  marginal and what was should should should be kept   you know should be kept quiet until There Was an 

explanation for what people saw uh now that's much   less important because you know we have about 400  over 400 men or women have gone into space so the   idea of going into space is is not as loaded  you know in in the public imagination as it   was you know 50 years ago so uh now those things  are more accepted uh I think by the public and   that's why I think things are a little bit open  a little bit more open including in Congress yeah   interesting so before now I think you have to go 

for technology and the material part but before   that uh I want to ask your opinion about Bob  lazar's story what do you think about his story   that involved in Area 51 is for is for I think in  part of Area 51 and the technology of the flying   sister and I think when we try you when Joy ran  Experience Podcast and he was also there and in   another episode and he was mentioning about the  technology maybe similar what we saw on Tic Tac   in the in the famous video I I'd rather not talk 

about publ you don't no but uh it's [ __ ] do you   think I respect it I I I just have no no opinion  I want to okay okay maybe I want ask you about the   material the the sampol you have can you tell us  about this the material do you have so far it's   17 sampol right right so so for a long time people  have reported after a sighting being able to pick   up something that looked strange it didn't look  like a normal stone or something that looked like   metal and uh a number of scientists have gathered 

this so there there is a lot of a lot of material   has been gathered going back to 1947 and and hour  before since uh the Trinity case was in 1945 the   uh those those traces were analyzed usually uh  for in normal chemistry the the only uh the the   first attempt to analyze it at the level of the  Isotopes came at Stanford University about 30   years ago with Professor sturak Peter sturak is  an astrophysicist at Stanford I worked with him   and for him for two years on studies of the Sun 

and studies of plasma Plasma Research in the you   know in the universe and we published a number  of of papers he was also very interested in UFOs   so he published a number of studies uh especially  of a case in Brazil at a a Beach town called uba   tuba uh on the coast of Brazil where people had  seen an object that exploded and showered the   the beach with very bright material that bright  material turned out to be magnesium uh in a very   pure State now uh you can you can buy the Purity 

standard of magnesium from Dow Chemical in the   US that supplies Laboratories and hospitals with  pure elements uh but this was more pure than the   standard of purity of magnesium and uh we think  the the observation happened in 1957 58 1958 in   Brazil okay why would there be extraordinarily  pure magnesium uh in as a result of an explosion   of of of a UFO over a beach in Brazil so uh  there were a few samples that were gathered   that were given to uh to an organization in the 

US called Aro apro and some of it was given to   Stanford Stanford University and the results are  still unconcluded about the Isotopes but there   seems to be something U something unusual about  the isotope ratios and of course you can you can   always hoax a a chemical you can blend chemicals  you know to create a HX and say that it came from   a UFO but you cannot change the isotope ratios  inside the atom of magnesium you know you you   cannot do that unless you have you know a nuclear 

essentially a nuclear plant at your disposal or   nuclear process you know the first uh element that  was altered that way was uranium you know for the   atom bomb and you can buy altered elements at a  very very high price for for example for tracing   U the the uh organs within the body you know tra  tracing biological processes within the body but   those are milligrams you know of of material here  in uat Tuba there was a lot of material I have the   samples from Professor sturak and we are studying 

them in the lab with new devices a new generation   of of of machines uh that when when we own the  machines so it it's relatively it's not easy I   mean it takes a lot of work but we we are doing  that now we have a number of materials from other   cases some of them going back and some of there  some of them very recent um like materials that   were gathered you know in sooro and uh in other  other recent cases so that's one part of what   we're doing we want to know if the uh the the the 

people who have uh developed you know the craft   have altered the the basic Elemental conditions  the basic Atomic conditions inside the uh the   metals that they are using we have um for a long  time it was very difficult to publish that kind of   study because the most um scientific opinion  was um you know was negative didn't believe   that it was important but we have now broken the  the system and we we have published a a a paper   on the analysis of of a particular case in the 

United States that was accepted for publication   by the top review in astronautics in the world  so we hope that that will open the possibility   for our colleagues in science you know in other  countries to to redo the kind of thing that we've   done and to publish their results so it's it's  a big it's a big breakthrough that's interesting   maybe I want ask you about the intelligence and  the design since you mentioned the isotope maybe   if we have the three material and moon and Mars 

the same component but the way we alter Isotopes   how how do we see the intelligence in doing  that if we can elaborate that maybe surpass   our perception of Material Science so uh we we  understand Isotopes we understand the structure   of most atams you know in the table of of atoms  um again the the first time it was done was you   know in the Manhattan Project for the the the  first atom bomb um the uh it's difficult to do   with significant amounts of material so one 

aspect of it that's important is if we found   uh a fairly large amount you know dozens of grams  hundreds of grams or kilograms of material that   has been altered in terms of the atomic structure  the nuclear structure then that with indicate a   technology that's beyond what we can do on Earth  you know so uh or what we can do certainly within   you know the countries the current civilization  we have so it would assume another civilization   more advanced than us um the it would not prove a 

space origin necessarily because the the elements   are the same through throughout the universe  so if you brought me a stone from Mars and I   analyzed it at Stanford or some other place um  we probably would find the same ratios of the   elements if it was altered it could mean that  there was a reason for whoever produced that   material to alter it just like we did for the atom  bomb you know for the atom bomb it was altered to   enhance the power of the explosion okay U the 

the uranium was enhanced uh but at an enormous   cost okay um if if you found it today that would  lead to a number of questions about why somebody   would want to do that the reason it's altered in  the in the body in certain certain operations is   to be able able to trace uh very subtle reactions  within the body that could you could recognize   because the that isotope has been changed okay so  of course you would do that with very very very   small quantities of of of material okay that could 

be that would be radioactive okay but on very very   minute quantity minute quantities so you could be  sure to trace it that way um the we have no reason   to alter the the composition of chemical elements  you know in Industry today other than for testing   or for for research for scientific research but  on an industrial basis uh we we really don't have   a need to do that so if we found something like  that after you know the landing of a of a craft   that would be very significant so I want to 

ask you in that case to solve this puzzle you   already was Gary Nolan I think we had him in the  podcast and you working with him about the analys   of this material and I think that's on going work  if uh i s from you yeah yes uh the uh there are a   number of Laboratories that are doing that uh of  course you need a special lab uh Dr Gary noan at   Stanford has pioneered in uh in the development  of new equipment for medicine that is able to   recognize elements at very high speed you know in 

the testing of blood and in the the the testing   of other fluids from the body so that that's a a  very important development and we have access to   those machines so in the paper that we published  we published results from two different machines   you know so that there is absolutely no question  about the results are so the the paper is mostly   about methodology but how you would do that but  now we're going to start applying it to ubat   Tuba again we have new material that I brought 

back from Argentina some of it was in fact from   Brazil of course uh but the uh it was gathered by  a group in in in Argentina and we have access to   their material and then uh we have I have about  20 other samples that uh of course we've looked   at many others that we have discounted but we're  focusing on about 20 materials that we intend to   to be testing and this is U you know this is good  science I mean it's mainstream science but at at   a very high technical level interesting maybe 

I'm just ask you personally do you think there   is really Advanced creatures like traveling over  the space or from other planet I don't know do   you believe in that if we leave the statistics  for a moment do you personally think maybe I   believe there's something advanced than human  uh do you think that possibility realistically   there's aliens if we say here that term so so  um if I if I remember my training in astronomy   um you know 50 years ago we were teaching uh in 

astronomy classes at Northwestern University for   example that it was very likely that any slowly  rotating yellow star like the sun the sun is a   slowly rotating yellow star that's very stable is  likely to have planets just like we have planets   and that it's very likely that some of those  planets would be in in a Range that is somewhat   similar to the solar system in other words there  would be something like air that could be breathed   by you know a biological you know being biological 

creature and there would be something like water   okay so water can only exist in a certain r range  away from the Sun okay that would be true for you   know throughout the universe so if then you you  you get to a very very large number of potential   planets within the Life Zone of the that solar  system or that star system and this is just within   our galaxy and we know you know there are billions  of galaxies so the probability that some of those   would have developed life somewhat similar to us 

you know is is high okay okay so that that's the   reasoning that leads you to that now the question  is would they be able to travel in space all the   way to the earth now I've done some statistics  you know about that other people have done it I've   I've published those statistics a long time ago go  there is a a Zone some maybe you know less than a   100 light years or 200 light years from the Earth  where you would expect if there were ETS coming   here they they would probably come from that zone 

if you assume that they have to travel from there   to here that's a big if because what if they don't  have to travel what if they can do it like this   and how this possible like this well um when I  talk to physicist today they say that there there   are there is a possibility of other dimensions and  then you could you could punch a hole you know in   Alpha centuri and you could emerge through a hole  you know between the Earth and the Moon in and you   would not have to cross the distance so you would 

not have to spend years or centuries you know on a   spacecraft at some fraction of a speed of light to  to to get here that you could get here instantly   but there are other possibilities you know Dr Heek  used to say what if there is another Universe 5   minutes ahead of us it would take five 5 minutes  to get here that's for human not possible right   well for an advanced civilization that has  understood the structure of the universe you know   uh there could there could very well be another 

Universe 5 minutes ahead of us we would never see   them so all those possibilities are there you know  and again um there is a uh there are legends about   that and there are of course uh you know religious  Traditions about that yeah maybe on ask quick   question here related things what you mention I  think Donald Hoffman talk about that whether we   see the reality it is and I believe that we don't  see the reality it is I mean as a human we limit   it I think you agree with that but do you think 

if this is really true do you think this is would   Define the God and religion and all that maybe not  true I'm not sure what do you think if we really   have other civilization other creature do you  think that's the religion whatever the religion   is or our beliefs or The God is not real I'm sorry  if that's offending question but I'm I won't ask   you I I think there would be um a revolution  is certainly in religious scholarship we first   we would want to know if we can communicate with 

them we would want to know what is their concept   of the universe of how it was created you know  in in physics we have a particular Theory or   a number of theories about how the universe  started um then the Bible says let there be   light you know that light was the first thing  which is also what physics is saying now that   it started with a big explosion of energy okay  and then there was an acceleration there was the   expansion of the Primitive universe and then there 

was the growth of the universe to the modern state   of the stars and the galaxies okay well um this  would not necessarily be a a crisis it would be   a an extraordinary opportunity for rethinking who  we are where we come from so on but I think the   the other impact comes from physics not from UFOs  but from you know all you know uh academic physics   that today says that we have to think beyond space  and time that space and time are secondary aspects   of the universe that and they are just the way we 

tend to make sense of the universe but that all of   this isn't space and time that all of this is sort  of a Quantum reality that we perceive as space and   time so if that's the case and there are a number  of theories of course that develop from that that   are absolutely fascinating and you know I I my the  physics I learned is a long time ago so I'm I'm   trying to relearn it with that kind of theory you  know and and educate myself about this but this   opens up all kinds of possibilities so within that 

the question is uh are there more developed forms   of Consciousness than we are well well you know I  certainly hope so I think I think nature is didn't   stop with us okay nature in in those other you  know realities would have would have had millions   of years to continue developing you would expect  that some of them would have developed Way Beyond   what we have had time to to develop you know as  as as humans so their concept might would probably   be you know much more developed than than ours and 

uh you know I I I I think it would not necessarily   be a uh a source of conflict I think it could be  maybe a a source of humility which is something   we need yeah yeah that's very interesting maybe I  want to ask you the missing pieces when you look   at this overall picture because I know some people  still uh maybe didn't get why we bother about   this topic maybe from technology I think what's  fascinating and also leading to explaining who we   are and if are we some Advanced civilization exist 

which is possibility since we don't need this   technology so far but what is the missing pieces  and when you look for the keeping this secret for   a long time and I think you have been like decades  in that why do you think there's keep like this   situation or observation secret or ridiculed and  I think even in Academia for for example evop he   has a b project as why this kept secret for a long  time and what do you think besides your effort and   Gary Nolan and evelope to to really answer this 

question what is happening here is it technology   what is this there are several levels in in your  question um I've had you know the opportunity to   work on a couple of projects that were technically  were Secret um you know the the bigo Aerospace   project bass you know that lasted two years uh  was classified um the some of the results are are   still classified and um you know at the top level  top level uh of uh of classification and I I think   that eventually you know the the material will be 

released you know as as time goes on but certainly   the the database that we built for which I was  responsible um was classified for good reasons   because it contained a number of records that  had to do with testimony from human beings whose   identity has to be protected some of them had  medical conditions that are covered by medical   secret so you cannot just throw it into you know  the public public um those those records need to   be analyzed and you know some of them some of 

them come from public records so some of them   are already public but what what we did to change  the structure you know to make it possible to do   artificial intelligence based on the database  that that I design you know that is still you   know covered by the project itself and I don't  disagree with that you know uh this is I think   this is appropriate and I think in time parts  of it or all of it will be Declassified um once   the the privacy of the witnesses can be protected 

okay and once then other teams can start building   those other levels I'm very proud to have uh you  know been able to work on that we ended up with   260,000 cases from all over the world you know  all reduced to English and all reduced to the same   structure so um that's one one valid reason for  keeping things you know in an unpublished State   until you you can get it to the point where it's  it can be open there are other reasons some of   the material for example from the limits you know 

has been on television and so on but about half of   the material is missing because you know and I've  never seen it uh the public has never seen it the   scientists who are trying to work on the data have  never seen it and probably the pilots have never   seen it because it's you know remember there were  new Radars that were being tested by the fleet   at that point those Radars were classified so so  the the data itself that comes from a classified   instrument is classified so there that means that 

in order to release it you would have to uh reduce   the data to a point where it would not reveal  anything about the technology so the technology   would remain classified but you could have access  to the results okay the the same thing for some   of the signal manipulation that took place you  know when uh when the the signal is acquired the   you know on the infrared cameras and so on that's  very complex technology so not all of it is when   when people make conclusions based on that I think 

it's certainly premature so those layers are valid   layers of interpretation ation because there may  be a new instrument that wasn't designed to track   UFOs you know it's designed to track an enemy  aircraft um including the the infrared cameras   for example that were built by the Reon company  for the aircraft for the f-18s uh those those   images are infrared images you know that that are  designed to capture the temperature of an exhaust   from an enemy jet you know they are designed for 

combat they are not designed for physics so raon   uh never denied that there was something unusual  or unknown on the images but they wrote a memo   saying pay attention to the fact that you cannot  extrapolate directly from the data we give you interesting maybe interesting maybe I want to go  for the stories for the data I mean the material   and one of the book Trinity I think you really  explained a lot about it and very interesting uh   the stories here in this book about them your for 

and also for Human Experience but what especially   about the Trinity people can relate to and how  it's contemporary to answering the question why   bother by this phenomena you for so I I was  invited into the study of the Trinity Case by   paa Harris paa Harris is an Italian researcher  who has traveled all over the world interviewing   Witnesses and um and presenting the the some of  the best data about the cases for example She   interviewed col Coro she has interviewed a number 

of uh prominent uh people in the military and also   civilian Witnesses in in Italy she's from Italy  but also in the United States in South America   and elsewhere so she had been intrigued by the  the case u in New Mexico that came out in about   10 years ago from two um two men who uh testified  that when they were children they were seven and   nine year old they were working on a ranch in  New Mexico close to the place where the first   atom bomb was detonated and they saw an object 

crash on their land and there were witnesses to   the recovery of that object by the Army by the  American Army the case was completely unknown   and the first reaction of many people including  many U UFO groups in the US was to to ridicule   the thing to say well theyve invented it those  those little kids you know made up a story and   but why would they have kept it secret for over  60 years well when you paa invited me to join   her in the study of the case because there was so 

much you know material data and physical data and   scientific data that we could get out of it so we  continue the investigation together I've gone to   the site for a number of days five times uh I  know you know the main witness very well uh Mr   Padia Mr Jose Padia who grew up to be a an officer  in the highway patrol uh in California but has now   returned to New Mexico where he's from uh he had  fought in Korea had been wounded in Korea very   courageous man very good Observer he is now in his 

middle 80s and uh he has a clear memory of what he   saw as a kid that we can correlate with not only  with what his the the other child you know had   remembered and had uh testified to as as an adult  uh you know recently but to other conditions at   the site and a number of different records so we  now have a complete picture uh that we continue   to to work on but we have a complete picture of  what happened what happened is that a an object   came out of nowhere it was you know the size of 

this room which is about the size of two trucks   you know two uh the the object was about 15 ft  you know 3 m high and uh evidently very heavy it   came out of nowhere and hit a communication tower  that stood outside the perimeter of the Manhattan   Project the project Manhattan was still Secret  at that point although the war had just finished   where two days after the capitulation of Japan one  month exactly after the first test of the atomic   bomb at the Trinity site in New Mexico so this is 

a very unique time in history for the first time   in history man has a capability to use Atomic  forces for Destruction for the first time an   atomic bomb has been demonstrated to the world  for the first time it has been used in combat   in war in Hiroshima neek the emperor of Japan uh  concedes you know uh the the know capitulates to   the American Army and two days later this object  appears out of nowhere destroys a communication   Tower just outside the boundary of project 

Manhattan and crashes on a ranch on a property   on the cattle ranch in New Mexico the there is  an aircraft that is coming in for a landing at   the base of alam mordo which is inside White  Sands White Sands is a very large you know uh   desert area where the bomb was exploded the first  atomic bomb was tested by a group of scientists   that includes the best physicist in the world um  and Dr Enrico fery Nobel Prize of physics um uh   Robert Oppenheimer you know the the leading 

physicist in Project Manhattan and a number   of the scientists from all over the world who were  fleeing you know Germany were fleeing World War II   in Europe and and came to to America in a project  that was so secret that the vice president of the   United States did not know that it existed the  largest project in their history of men not only   in the history of War but in the history of man  so the the fact that that object appears out of   nowhere and destroys that Tower just outside 

project Manhattan and he is seen by that pilot   who is coming in for a landing the tower ask him  to look at the tower because they don't understand   why they've lost communication with the tower he  flies around the Tower with his bomber a B25 a   two engine twin engine bomber and uh observes the  tower reports that the tower is broken it's bent   there lost communication he also sees fire in the  in the vegetation some distance away it describes   that there is an object there that looks like 

a big big egg was an oval object it's not not a   flying saucer it's an oval object and he describes  two little kids calls them two little Indians on   with their horses close to where that fire is so  we have an initial report which we don't have in   Roswell we don't have in many other cases we have  an initial report by you know a train pilot uh   coming in for a landing at Alamogordo that places  the object the fire the destruction of the Tower   and the two kids so we we have an initial picture 

of exactly what happened in the investigation we   find that the the object was not on fire the the  vegetation was on fire but the object was intact   so this was not a hoax this was not just a balloon  this was not an airplane with a funny shape an   airplane hitting the tower would have blown up in  you know a 100 pieces that object hit the tower   landed essentially crash landed but then was still  under power because it it dug a a Boulevard all   the way down the hill for about 500 M made a turn 

and stopped you know against a a burm in in the in   the landscape the kids are there and the kids are  taking care of the cattle they were sent there by   their father to make sure that the cows were all  right one cow was expected to give birth they have   found the uh you know the kid uh they the the  the baby and the cow are all right so they will   report that to their father you know they know  where all the cows are the kids have binoculus to   track the cows the cows have Brands and it's very 

important to make sure that all the cows are there   that there is no animal with another brand from  another Ranch that has come over the fence they're   also there to make sure the fence is intact they  know how to fix the those two kids are very bright   and they are very good observers and they know  that if you see something you you have to if you   see an accident you have to bring support to the  people who may be hurt so they go to the object   they see that it's open one part of it has blown 

up when it hit the tower and they see three little   creatures inside and then they get scared because  the creatures are human but they also remind them   of a of a sort of insect and they are about 3 feet  tall about as tall as the kids they seem to be in   great distress they move back and forth inside the  object and they see seem to be crying and again   those kids are growing up on a farm so they they  know you know the Cry of an animal that you kill   for example they they they they have experience 

with animals and they don't know whether they   are in a presence of some small strange humans  or or strange animals so they are not going to   go inside their first idea was to go inside to  see if they could help but the little one is   crying and says I I don't want to go anywhere near  that thing and the nine-year-old you know who is   Jose uh Padia who's still alive today and we've  developed you know a a very open friendship and   so on as as a result of working together um would 

like to go help but he will listen to the little   one and decide not to go there and he told me you  know if I had gone inside I probably would not be   here talking to you interesting I mean maybe for  the creature you mentioned because there question   about how human as we as developed and maybe  there's a possibility they have a combination   of Being Human and reptiles do you have based on  what you witnessed besides of course what we have   a fact as science or maybe try to analy that 

this creature is it I mean some people disbel   but because we didn't touch that and it's not  that common we can see that thing but you have   a drawing I think in the book to resemble that  they have like insect like and human like in a   combination of this do you believe in in like  it's combination or how how these things could   develop if we just a theory like so remember this  this is where I you know I behave like an an like   I was trained as an information scientist I yes 

I'm going to analyze the case again we've gone   back we've looked at things in the landscape we've  we we have found other Witnesses who came in later   and could describe the conditions of the site in  later years and things that were found at the site   by other people later after the initial so so  I you know I'm doing all that I continue to do   that with Mrs Harris but I'm also looking for  other cases that form a pattern with this one   I look for patterns there are two other cases 

in which the object is egg shaped and in which   the occupants are three feet tall and look human  and breathe our air you know which we don't we   don't expect extraterrestrials to come here and  breathe our air we expect them to be like we're   going to be on Mars you know with a with a helmet  with breathing equipment with speaking equipment   and so on antennas and so on they here they are  just wearing a one piece suit you know but they   have hands three fingers not five fingers but but 

they have hands they have two eyes and evidently   they breathe our air so that the in in the  case of Soro in New Mexico with officer Lon   Amora that's what he sees he sees an egg-shaped  object that lands on a very remarkable landing   gear on uneven terrain where an airplane couldn't  land a helicopter couldn't land the object lands   on that terrain I've been there and I've I've  looked at the places the the the object is an   egg-shaped object on four legs and there are two 

humanoids in front of it confronting officer zamur   they are three feet tall they have two eyes they  breathe our air they have a one piece Su you know   just like the case in in Trinity there is another  case in which is in France that I also know very   well case in Valen Sol and first of August 1965  a a farmer uh comes out early in the morning to   water the the uh the plants because it's going  to be very hot you know in the south of France   in August it gets very hot it's going to be very 

dry so he has both Vines and and and other other   plants there that he needs to water early in the  morning there is an object in his field it's oval   he first thinks it's some sort of helicopter he  gets near it and there is no way it's a helicopter   it's an egg-shaped object on a landing gear with  a central like a central pivot and there are two   uh beings in front of it looking at him he tries  to get close to to them to ask them what they are   doing in his field because they they're destroying 

the vegetation there they're destroying the plants   and one of them pulls a little device from his  belt points it at the witness and he becomes   paralyzed in his own field he doesn't fall down  it's a a kind of of paralysis where he just can't   move but he's still standing and they look at  him for a while they go back inside the craft the   craft takes off disappears in midair disappears  in midair okay the case in sakuro the object took   off with a tremendous noise and then when it was 

about 60 m in the air stopped motionless all all   noise stopped and then it started flying away  towards um actually towards White Sands towards   the mountain so those two cases Valen Sol and  sakuro were not investigated by people like me   they were not investigated by you know volunteers  who are interested in UFOs they were interest they   were investigated by initially by the police  in both cases so testimony was given to the   Gary for example in the Valen Soul Case by by the 

French witness and then the the police called the   Air Force and called the Army the people from uh  in in the case of sakuro the the people from the   the atomic project uh came because they thought  it might be some experimental uh device that had   escaped from that had gone you know out of out  of the territory and that they could recover and   quickly came to the conclusion that it didn't  match any technology that they had and they   had the most advanced you know uh Army uh lift uh 

Tech technology at the time uh on on on the base   um there were three people from the FBI there  the FBI had no jurisdiction in a state case in   a you know New Mexico case but they were there  and they had time so they preserved the traces   you know the way they would do it for a federal  case so we have very very very good description of   the cases you know from the FBI the there were a  number of materials that were recovered that have   been analyzed in various ways and we're still 

getting we're getting ready to reanalyze them   because there was some there were some official  lies lies about the materials that were covered   by Secrets but we have part of materials so we're  going to take it to a lab and we'll see what we   find the um in again in all three cases in in the  the investigation was by official uh State bodies   in France there were five five bodies of the  French government investigated it first first the   Gary and the police the French Air Force French 

intelligence and the French Customs so um when you   take those three cases together you have a pattern  in all three cases the object is um the object   is an oval you know uh oval shape and I can I can  show it I can show it to you uh maybe you can take   that picture separately but in all three cases you  have an overall um object that had extraordinary   capabilities of lift uh in all three cases we have  a very good estimate of the weight and the weight   is in tons not kilograms okay the the case in Soro 

is of the order of 10 to 15 Tons um and the we we   know the approximate case the approximate weight  in the Trinity case from the testimony of the of   the kids because because when the Army came in  they came in with a large truck kind of army truck   that carries two tanks and they built a crane  remember we're 15 miles away from any you know   any big town or any medium town so they have to  improvise they have to build everything there you   know on on the ranch so the Army comes in with 

this large truck and they they come in with a   crane with another truck with a crane to lift the  object and put it sideways on the platform so uh   if it if it had been a light device and so on they  would not have needed that truck so that tells us   that object was between two and five tons okay  so this is not a hoax this is not somebody who   with imagination who wanted to play a joke and I  don't think anybody would play a joke on a project   that has just as exploded has just exploded 

the first atomic bomb in the history of man   okay so even the idea that this would be Russia or  this would be Germany well Germany is completely   defeated at this point there is nothing left in  Germany okay it has been bombed into into uh into   nothing uh and Japan is not has just surrounded  around it just just surrendered when we look to   the 100 years advaned in human technology and by  doing what you're doing now allowing others what   possibilities maybe would change us as a human in 

terms of Technology if we speak about technology   what would be if we imagine like we solve what  it is maybe it's physical phenomena it's be other   civilization which is likelihood more to happen we  you try to elaborate the points why shouldn't be   other than that what could be possibilities  in terms of advancing human as we are maybe   technology since we see there's a rapid change in  100 years maybe you you better to tell us you're   also investing in companies and technology so 

you know better here so we are led to that by   we are led to that by um another question which  is how come nobody knew about you know how come   nobody knew about Trinity well um from the the  answer is easy from the point of view of the US   government you know project Manhattan uh owned  essentially anything happening you know in that   in that area so it was taken by project Manhattan  they they sent you know Detachment of the army it   was brought back to White Sands from White Sands 

it would have gone to Los Alamos losal is where   the labs were where all the atomic Laboratories  still are today and some of the best applied   science and applied physics in the world was there  so it would have been taken there it would have   been secret now now in the work I've done I've  worked with people who had access to classified   information and so on they had never heard of  this particular case this particular recovery   uh Dr Heck had never heard of this case the it's 

not in the files of the Air Force uh you know at   the time in 1945 there was no Air Force there was  the there were airplanes and Pilots but they were   in army uniform this was the Army Air Force was  flying those those planes okay the the Air Force   was created two years later in 1947 by President  Truman there were no flying sources flying sources   are going to be described two years later by  Kenneth Arnold over the state of Washington okay   so all those things have not happened yet there 

was no CIA CIA is going to be created in 1947   1945 there is none of that there is the atomic  secrets and the object was and in fact we know   that it's not just my speculation but the object  was taken to Los Alamos and then became owned by   Under the atomic Secrets the atomic secrets in the  United States are separate type of secret from the   ordinary clearances for example when I worked  on the database I told you I I had a clearance   uh under the normal type of clearance that goes 

confidential no foreign access um classified um   you know secret and top secret and then Above Top  Secret for very special projects well the atomic   secrets are under r p and Q they are not given to  automatically into the the other type of secret   so somebody in the Pentagon could have a clearance  higher than top secret all his life and never know   about something that classified p q if he doesn't  need to deal with atomic materials or with the   atomic bombs so those there is a very special and 

you can understand why I mean the atomic secrets   are segregated in a particular in a particular  type of lab particular type of science um if if   you're working on you know something completely  different there is no reason why you should have   access to it then there are other Secrets which  are the foreign diplomacy secrets that again don't   have any reason reason to be mixed in with the the  regular industrial secrets of say the development   of a new airplane or development of a new rocket 

you know which are again are the the Pentagon   type of secret the normal the the main type of  secret in the US um the the following Secrets   would have to do with you know what is uh is uh  um Brazil developing a new weapon secretly well   if we know about that and if it becomes important  somebody would brief the you know the president or   would brief the executive about that particular  development but the rest of the time there is no   need to know that the need to know is important 

in dealing with secrets so of all the people I've   known who had access to Secrets nobody had the  need to know about this particularly about Trinity   and that's why you know nobody knows about it the  only the other reason nobody knows about is that   the kids never spoke so the question is you know  and I'm often ask that people say you know kids   will talk about you know well when on the second  day the the the father had reported immediately   had report the the information to the state police 

the state police wants to go there so the kids are   going to lead lead their father and the state  policeman to where the object is they call it   an avocado of course everybody speaks Spanish  okay and the the uh state policeman and the   father go inside the object the little creatures  are no longer there there we don't know what has   happened to them we don't know if they escaped  we don't know if the Detachment from the Army   came in and took them away the previous day when 

nobody is there we we don't we don't know what   happened to them but the the object is empty it's  you know they go inside when they come out they   are and remember I remember Mr Pia telling me you  know my father was changed they had a completely   different attitude they said they they got the  kids to sit down and they said you don't talk   about that ever it's not for us it happen on our  land but it's not for us it's not for you it's for   the Army it's for the government to do something 

it's going to be secret you don't talk you don't   talk to your to other kids in school you you  know you just you just stay quiet about this and the and where's the vle is the vehicle that the  obil shape is it do you know where it is I I   don't know I I don't have object I've never had  that kind of clearance we know that the atomic   Secrets um are go up to a certain level this is we  we know this is kept in a a classification that's   higher than the atomic secret we know that because 

this was uh stated to the head of the Canadian   project when he asked you know about materials  and so on the materials recovered you know are   classified higher than the atomic Secrets he they  he didn't know about this particular case but he   knew about recovery of objects of craft and so  on uh the other reason we know about it is that   the the governor of the state of Washington Dix  Ray was a woman was a physicist uh who was very   bright and created the atomic energy commission 

and she worked with one of the witnesses R Baka   became a businessman in the state of Washington  became very active in politics and helped her   get elected to uh as governor of Washington  governor of the state of Washington so um he   was close to her office and she showed him the  report about Trinity the the the case that he   had seen as a kid she showed him there was a  classified report she didn't let him read it   but she showed him she went to a safe she took 

the report and she showed him the report so we   have these two different ways of checking what  the little kids who are now grown men you know   uh revealed you know when they were in their  their 60s their 70s their 80s quick question   here about when you mentioned some of the things  are classified still classified maybe because of   National Security and this is totally understood  and other aspect you mention also Jan experience   that both because that for example tell the 

company maybe have some samples I don't know   if you Canen that so what I'm asking here there's  asbq clarified that you can release for safety   reason this is totally reasonable but when you  look to the data it seems there's classified   part maybe companies like but you mention you can  operate have materials to solve this imagining   that we solve what it is whatever it is do you  think this is something maybe some aspects maybe   companies or government dominating this kind 

of knowledge whatever it is what do you think   of that so um paa Harris has interviewed car Coro  car Coro was in the Pentagon you know in the 50s   and he told her and he testified publicly that he  had been given a box where there were different materials and the um he was given the instruction  to give those materials to different Laboratories   different companies in the United States where  they could be analyzed now the what were different materials and the um he was given the instruction 

to give those materials to different Laboratories   different companies in the United States where  they could be analyzed now the what what he   would do would be to go to a company like loed for  example and and show them something that seemed to   be you know aeronautic material or and he would  tell them that this is something we've acquired   from from you know through intelligence from a  foreign country maybe we found this in Japan or   we found this in in the Soviet Union and we we 

want you to analyze it to tell us you know how   it's made and what it is they would not tell  them that it came from a UFO they would tell   them it came from you know Army intelligence so  you know it came from a spy somewhere or it came   from we know we bought it from foreign agent  you know who had this why because they because   they the UFO case was classified higher than the  classification of the scientist who was going to   do the analysis so and they would go to a specific 

science they wouldn't go to the company they would   go to a specific scientist to whom they have  access you know who is already vetted under   their classification system okay but has access to  them to the instruments uh I I knew one of those   scientists so I can speak about that you know  he's has been dead for 20 years but he was the   the scientist who invented the coating of magnetic  discs for the computer industry you can imagine   how many millions of dollars billions of dollars 

his company made and you can probably imagine   which company which company it is I I won't give  you his name but uh he showed me actually a a   piece of a piece of rock he had kept there were  several samples but they it looked like a rock   it was actually a very sophisticated material  that he could he could look at the structure he   could not understand the structure and that's a  report that he gave uh you know they um yeah it   it would have been classified at the time um 

I the but there was no he couldn't understand   really what why you would want that kind of that  kind of structure now the structure is known now   I mean it's not not a matter of Secrets but that's  the way the information was was turned over to the   to American industry so and you know that's  what car Coro described so this is what what   would have happened you know with the material  including any biological material if there was   biological material we could M interesting are 

you still chasing new material I'm curious like   yes yes sure sure there we there is material that  we're interested in going back into historical   cases sure yes again it's not clear that that  material will prove anything in terms of But   to answer your question that material could in  fact inspire a new industrial process okay um   the uh so far you know it hasn't people have  said look at the transistor well we know where   the transistor comes from I've worked with some 

of the people who were there at the invention of   the transistor it's not that long okay uh it's  you know we know where it was developed and we   know how the the the patent for the transistor is  actually a German patent from 1934 1934 okay and   it was a description of a process in physics  you know of an interesting experiment that   had no application you know because people were  starting to think of developing glass tubes you   know to amplify currents you've seen those old 

radios you know with the tubes and of course the   transistor was Revolution replacing the tubes with  uh with semiconductors but uh the the knowledge of   the semiconductor process goes back to the 1930s  it didn't come from you know an alien coming out   of a of a flying saucer we can we can trace that  the advantage of being in Silicon Valley is that   I can I can find people who know about how those  materials were developed and so this is probably   the best place to test you know new materials 

and that's what we want to do now um yes there   might be patterns developed but I think my own  impression and we we must do that because it's   good science I mean what a gift you know if we can  if we could find a material that just levitates by   itself you know we could study it and understand  gravity but um I think that the the real origin   of the phenomenon is much more complex I I think  what we what we've recovered or what we've seen at   at Soro and Valen Sol and TR is a gift you know 

it's something that was shown is being shown to   us presented in a form that we can understand but  it's it could be part of a training program to get   us to think in other terms now at the at the end  of Trinity you know it took 10 days for the Army   to clean up everything in the in the landscape  and put the lift the object with the crane and   put it sideways on the trailer the reason they  put it sideways is that it wouldn't go under   the Road overpass if it had been standing up so 

you know the egg was turned over to the small   diameter of the egg so that it could go under the  overpass so that tells you this was not some kind   of you know hoax from the the kids making up  something I mean now when it was there um Jose   Padia went inside the the soldiers were away you  know there was nothing more to be done they were   waiting for night to take the truck away so the  soldiers were at Liberty to go have dinner they   went to dinner you know nearby and then they would 

come back at dark at night take the the truck and   go to the Trinity site um the kids had time to go  inside What description inside like if you briefly   describe what is different about the perception  of design could be enforc your claim here so the   and i' I've interrogated Mr peny at length about  what was inside they it it seemed that the walls   were he could not see any juncture he couldn't  tell how that panel had been ejected for example   by the shock the it was just smooth there was a 

small Dome on the side towards the back not on   top a small glass Dome uh about 60 cm you know  less than one meter in in diameter why it was   there nobody knows there was was no equipment  there except one thing that he managed to get   away from the wall which was sort of bracket and  we've analyzed it and we think it was put there   by the Army we think it was human I we don't think  it was part of of the object itself the floor was   flat now that was important to me that the floor 

was flat because it means that there was a space   of maybe 60 cm or 70 CM under the floor where the  the rounded shape of the unders side would be now   since the the object was on the trailer on the  side the kids could see the underside that they   hadn't seen before so they they looked at any  opening you know any propellers any Jets any   anything that could be there was nothing on the  other side the UND side was smooth except for a   couple of bumps in the metal but remember it had 

it had gone all the way down the hill and the   other side was intact I mean it was scratched but  it was not broken so it was extraordinary strong   now to me trying to analyze it um this this is  where the engine would have been right if it has   an engine we don't know if it has an engine but  we we know it was under some sort of power when   it went down the hill so the the engine would  be contained in that relatively small space we   have no idea no idea how it works now somebody 

has that object I would think that if it's Los   Alamos they would have tried to drill into it  they would try to do something we don't know   what they know we have no access to that again it  would not be under the normal secrets of people   in the Pentagon it would be in the nuclear secrets  above the nuclear bomb yeah yeah very interesting   do you in Spate how many years this could be it  seemed as something but do you bit like besides   your effort and there is certainly classified 

thing that we don't know as a general public yet   so clear for National Security here but doing  this debate how many years this could be like   guys this is the reality of these things do you  think how many years or what does it take that   we can have definitive answer about these things  definitely it's not Haw and I I agree with you   but how many years so that we can get this answer  that's the answer or maybe coming up technology   Advance our Consciousness or perceptions that 

we can see the reality that we can't see with   limited perceptions well the the important thing  and there are a number of examples in science of   this the the important thing is that it's telling  us that there is something else there is another   form of life there is another form of intelligence  and it's capable of building something like that   so that is a a new reality for man okay so  that itself is important for scientists to   know because it it releases their imagination 

in ways that haven't been released before you   know for example the there are other examples in  science where something was discovered by accident   radioactivity was discovered by accident well  you you discover radioactivity you're going to   do a different kind of science all of a sudden  there is a you know before radioactivity the   the the books the scientific books said we've  discovered pretty much everything there is to   know we've measured everything we've measured the 

universe you know we've measured the how far away   the stars are okay you another accident is when  uh the treda nebula was resolved into stars at   Mount Palomar and the man who observ that was that  was a technician it wasn't a great astronomer okay   who kept asking how come there are stars on on on  these plates okay and there couldn't be because uh   those you remember those were called nebula the  Andromeda nebula because people thought it was   sort of a cloud you know in space Among the Stars 

why shouldn't there be clouds Among the Stars you   know clouds of hydrogen or whatever there are  clouds of hydrogen out there so they thought   it was just another Cloud once you resolve it in  stars and we can measure you know the periodicity   of those Stars it tells you how far they are  it tells you we are in one Galaxy and there are   billions of other G is way out there you're not  going to do astronomy the same way the next day   when you go when you go to the office okay you're 

going to be thinking in a different way this is   what would happen once uh some of that material  is released you know it's I'm not I'm not saying   there should be you know instant disclosure of  everything because we don't really know what it   is we would be disclosing okay we we we really  don't if you ask 10 scientists it would give you   10 different definitions of disclosure the fact  that the that you know Congress has said that   this was not a hoax or this was not a joke that 

this was serious and this was real is a major   disclosure because now science have permission to  start studying studying it like um you know Dr aob   at Harvard is is doing it with his own project  U and like uh you know what what is going on at   Stanford uh with Dr noan uh this is not going to  stop okay these are these are scientists who are   not going to stop uh for uh you know bureaucratic  reasons so uh the this the train is moving do you   have maybe Qui question uh any sorry do you have 

any question about uh like remarks about Academia   quickly because Evo was really mentioning that  struggling to get enough attention funding and   I think it's a privately funded project but do  you have few comments about Academia and be yeah   D to ask challenging question and not be afraid  to be ridiculed maybe that's a point maybe do   you have any commments about that um the subject  is going to be a challenge for Academia because   in uh any American campus the physics building 

is at one end of the campus and the sociology   and the psychology building are at the the other  end of the campus and they they never meet maybe   maybe at the Christmas party you know they they  meet and and have drinks together so uh that will   have to change if we're going to really study this  phenomenon because the phenomenon cuts across many   disciplines you know including medicine including  you know Advanced biology which is what of course   what Dr Nolan is doing um it it covers you know 

Atomic chemistry Atomic physics uh it it covers   uh materials at a very very high level and so all  these people will have to start working together   and they are it's it's very difficult for them to  to work together because they don't even have the   same uh the same terminology to to they don't call  even materials they don't call them the same way   okay so the it will have a profound effect on on  science to some extent maybe there will be a step   back from what where we are now with people of 

my generation which is really uh you know passing   into history but uh hopefully some of what we've  found you know will be picked up by by you know   younger scientists who are are now you know have  uh have the luxury of an the opportunity to to to   study it but to some extent uh they will have to  start from scratch because I've had the privilege   of interviewing Witnesses you know in the late  50s in the 60s of working with the founders of   This research with em Michelle in France with Jack 

berier in France with you know people in England   with people in uh in America with Dr Heek and  uh all these people have taught me something and   and especially the witnesses many of the witnesses  have died many of the witnesses of that generation   in Trinity we're very fortunate that Mr Padia is  still alive and remembers all this very very well   maybe I'll take one of there is many question from  the audience I appreciate them sending them but   maybe for the time we take one and then we close 

with the question so the first question question   from Lui I asking that do you have any particular  opinion in tayor um intimacy Taylor from Diana   Book in American Cosmic he's a do you have any  opinion that's first question yeah um I well I   I know the book and I know her and we've actually  worked together on some of the cases in uh in New   Mexico so I'm I'm very interested in of course  you were asking about the Vatican you know she's   the one who went to to the Vatican and spoke to uh 

people there and researched the the archives there   so she I'm I'm delighted with the the research  that she's doing and so we we are staying in touch   and comparing comparing data about the um the the  belief system and the um you know that result from   that so it's an it's a very interesting uh time  in in research where you have both you know uh   research in physics and materials and so on and  propulsion and you know access to those early   early Traditions as you may know I've uh published 

other books that have to do with ancient citings   and um going back to the Bible and going back  to um Arab traditions and Chinese traditions and   so on about this so it's I'm glad that uh um she  is uh you know being in involved in that and you   know and uh she has uh also of course being very  interested in in the materials themselves and how   they relate to the whole history of of secrecy so  the second question also he asking in in your in   your last book Trinity you has laid it to reswin 

ver Theory as um as a possible explanation for   some of these phenomena yeah can you elate in this  Theory the rwin verc the uh and I'm I'm delighted   to to have that question because of course his  theory would resolve everything because he says   that um perhaps we live inside a simulation inside  a video game a very Advanced video game and that   these are presented to us by the designers of  the video game to see how we're going to be   reacting perhaps as a as a great experiment as 

a great social experiment or as entertainment   for them you know and that maybe everything would  disappear so in i' I've I've written the forward   for Ran's book in French for example and and  we've often discussed all this I of course as   a you know as a computer scientist I'm fascinated  with his idea because in fact if you extrapolate   you know the technology we have today I mean this  technology that's surrounding us here in you know   here in Paris extrapolated by five or 10 years 

you know what do we have well we have the ability   to create worlds to create universes to create  devices that do things maybe uh the ability to   transfer our Consciousness into avatars and and  live through those avatars certainly people have   been speculating about this and uh if that's  the way the world is constructed [Music] then   the in in one way you know my reaction is it's  disappointing because it means we're just toys   you know or um Creations artistic Creations uh but 

in in another way it's intriguing for a scientist   because the question is how would we test it maybe  we would test it by uh you know setting fire to   everything and seeing how the system reacts or um  you know how would we make sure that uh that this   is real rather than being simulated by somebody um  when when you first expose to uh that theory it's   like a Ganan experiment you know what if the world  was like this so it's it's a way just a way of   thinking that teaches you something about the kind 

of question you should be asking but in another   way um when you start thinking about it what other  reasons why it would be wrong so you start saying   well it would be wrong because uh you know all the  religions really say different things well all the   religions don't say different things they all say  the same thing that we were created by something   I mean the Hindus have a certain interpretations  and U you know the the Catholics have a certain   interpretation and so on but essentially is that 

there was an entity that had a high level of   conscious and created us and you know in the the  Bible I mean he created other forms of life before   didn't like them you know destroyed them with the  flood because he thought the experiment was wrong   and he restarted another experiment and we are  that experiment I mean that's pretty much what   the Bible says so ran makes the cas is that if  you read all those you know religious Traditions   they all say like what he says that this is a 

simulation and that there is some higher level   God that wants to see what we're going to do  so that you know that can take you very far you   know it it can uh it it it can really take you to  asking fundamental questions about you know how do   we know that this table exists how do we know that  we exist you know and how would we manifest it and   what does it mean for the way we have to lead our  lives and so on so um yeah it's a very interesting   hypothesis because it throws light on everything 

else interesting maybe maybe also part of a   question also let honestly a lot of great question  but we can't cover all of them but the question   is if we come to understand that UFO phenomena  as a something operating as a control system as   you told us here informing our understanding of  reality both adapting and shaping cultur schemes   and spiritual beliefs then despite Jack's Jack  claims here your claims he doesn't want to Def   redefine God isn't that the ultimate result so if 

it's if you live inside a control system there I   I had that discussion with jacqu berier who was  the publisher of one of my books in the 60s in   here in Paris and he said he had been captured by  the Gestapo in World War II he was a French spy   he developed um a he was part of a network that  was uh trying to find where the where the Germans   were getting radioactive material you know and he  was also part of a a secret organization that was   trying to locate pund where the V2s were being 

launched he was captured by the Nazi and he was   tortured by the Nazi and as a result he developed  a very interesting personal philosophy and he told   me a concentration camp is a control system um  you know there are fences and you can't leave   and if you leave somebody's going to pursue you  and kill you okay so it it it is one example of   a human control system that we have built within  our lifetimes we have not known there have been   concentration camps that people were not allowed 

to to to leave and the question you have to ask if   you if you really think UFOs are a control system  is is it open or closed the Nazi concentration   camps were closed there were barbwire and there  were towers with machine guns to make sure nobody   got out however they were also open in some cases  he says in one of the um camps where he was kept   and where he was interrogated tortured um some  one day the firemen of Zurich were brought in   by the Nazi the firemen of Zurich had were unhappy 

and they had gone on strike so now the the firemen   of Munich had had gone on strike forgive me and  they had been uh taken by the Nazi and brought   to the concentration camps for three weeks after  three weeks they were released they went back to   Munich and they were no longer on strike so  he says the Concentration Camp I realized it   was a teaching system it was a school and it  could be open and so he said I realized that   the question about control system is you know 

how can you determine whether you're inside a   closed one or an open one you know the fireman  of Munich were brought in as guests inside the   Concentration Camp I was brought in as a prisoner  to be tortured I couldn't get out so the the same   structure can serve two different goals I I've  been thinking about that for 50 years you know   what does it what does it mean uh you know there  are philosophies that say the Earth is a prison   you know the Earth is a essentially concentration 

camp or we are there for the scientologists have   said something like that you know that uh we're  kept uh there were philosophers who said we're   we're kept as scattle you know we cannot leave the  universe well there are other philosophies that   say the in the evolution the full evolution of  mankind we will be able to become um enlightened   to the point where we can leave the universe you  know the Eastern philosophies are different from   the Western philosophies on that that regard 

but in both cases it's a control system so when   you ask that question it it leads to pretty  fundamental you know um thoughts and types of   philosophy I I don't have the answer I I conduct  My Life as a if it was an open system that U you   know if I keep learning uh I may find I I I have  no delusion of finding the solution but if I if I   keep learning and working with people like Dr aob  and like like Dr Nolan maybe I can learn a little   bit more about what what life is all about you 

know and that's what you know the best thing I   could do extremely interesting the last question  for you what kind of truth you're looking for you   have dedicated your life with this but what kind  of Truth you wish to to to have it what is in the   truth ultimate truth you you seek for so far um  you know I've um I've worked closely with the   man who was the father of the internet you know  uh or maybe the grandfather because there are   many fathers many people claim to be the father of 

the internet but there was one grandfather and his   name was Paul Baron b a r a n nobody remembers him  and he was very humble very humble man he was at   Rand the at the Rand Corporation when he invented  packet switching which we are using now of course   in some many layers of packet switching but it's  still packet switching and um I worked for him   and I took over one project from him a research  project for ARA uh in in in the US um I asked him   that question you know what all that what does all 

that mean for you you're not looking for your name   to be known everywhere you don't you don't expect  people to build a statue to you as the father of   you know of the internet he said in life it's  like building a cathedral you know many people   maybe several generations of workers will be there  and you're you know you can be happy if you have   been responsible for one stone and that's what I  did you know one stone it's called the internet so   I've never forgotten that and that's my that's my 

philosophy that's very inspiring I don't know if   you have any F words like to say something maybe  you think could be interesting to be shared maybe   we didn't cover it uh I I do have uh I I really  think that everything I've done and you know   people of my generation have done is going to  be uh used and recycled and turn into something   completely different okay that's what happens in  technology I mean we're not using the internet the   way the aranet was built in 1965 1965 okay uh was 

many generations away and a lot of the early years   have been forgotten a lot technology has been  re cycled several times we built several times   which is good and I was delighted to have been  able to contribute to at least a couple two or   three generations of of that technology in what I  did uh as an engineer and as a venture capitalist   you know funding new companies to do that so I  think it's going to be the same thing people will   discover new angles new ways of doing it the one 

thing that I think everybody should remember is   the humility you know that we need to have have  when we speak to our witness like Mr Padia like   some of the the other Witnesses because they the  reason we know this is that they have trusted us   and you know it all goes back to trust and you  know trust is is difficult to get especially for   the military you know they give you questionnaires  you have to fill out scientists love to develop   forms and uh all those databases in in the the 

latest databases that I've developed they were   open they were not constrained by you know people  could say whatever they wanted and then you know   we can build systems that will analyze that but  let's capture it on the human level you know a   lot of uh what I've learned uh I I've learned  you know was different from what what had been   written in the books and so on and the reason  reason I learned the truth is that the witness   trusted me there's I give you one anecdote there 

was a case in Northern California beautiful area   north of San Francisco lots of redwood trees and  so on um the Witnesses were all miners a man and   his wife had developed a small claim and so on  and there had been three cases of UFOs on their   land okay and this had been studied and somebody  had written an article about it and in the article   uh They said that the the object had taken off in  a particular direction which was you know to open   to the sky I I went there and I spent a couple 

of hours with them and then I went back to ask   them more questions and I went there with my kid  with my son and uh we became friends after a while   you know and they could see that I was really  really interested in what had happened to them   because I could tell it had had a deep impact  on them they had they hadn't talked about to   anybody because it had again affected their  life and their their beliefs their you know   a number of things and I I I asked them to take 

me to that place among the the forest where the   thing had landed you know one one time and I said  you know looking around if it if it took off in   that direction it would have had hid the trees  and they said well you know it kind of Hit the trees and it went through the trees well okay so  now this isn't some sort of Rocket or some sort of   helicopter you know a helicopter will crash if  it hits a tree um that I I said why didn't you   tell that to the investigator who came here they 

said well you know we could tell he would never   believe it because he was looking for Hardware  you know he was looking for some sort of Super   Rocket he was essentially had an engineering mind  we we couldn't tell him that it went through the   trees but you asked a question so we told you so  I think that's what we need to learn and that is   what bothers me with what's happening now in  the US is that they we're primarily going to   look at the military cases that's what Congress 

has mandated you know the pilots are going to   come up and now fortunately they have they  are giving them permission to speak about   what they've seen okay without s ma without being  degraded without losing their position as Pilots   you know if you're a pilot you don't want to be  assigned to an office somewhere you want to keep   flying right so you're not going to talk about  UFOs ever okay so when that stigma is going is   removed now you have another another situation 

but now we we have to think about and again the   the Army and the air force is is great because  I have all these instruments that can measure   things I have radar they they have all of that  a farmer in his field doesn't have that but the   farmer knows his field and he knows nature he  knows the clouds he knows if it's going to rain   tomorrow he knows how the cows are behaving that  tells him something about what's going on it tells   you about threats it tells tells you about all 

kinds of other things that a pilot would never   know about because a pilot is looking looking  at a few instruments and the sky in front of him   and that's it okay so the we should not narrow  the what I'm afraid of is that everything will   will be military observations because they are  so neat observations from the last five years   because we have all this wonderful technology  the farmer doesn't have that technology so it's   going to be discounted and it should not be 

discounted we should go back to the last 50   years and it's in the database now most of those  people have died I have the privilege of having   survived long enough to know all these people  and I can see people making hypothesis about   the database that I can tell you are false  I can tell you it did not happen that way   because I went there and I spoke to the people  who are operating that radar or the people who   are flying airplane back in Brazil in 1987 when 

there were ships flying Ships coming out of the   Amazon at night flying out of the water of the  Amazon okay they saw that they have pictures   of that okay you're not going to get that just  by doing some superficial research you know as   good as a research is at at Harvard or Princeton  or Stanford you know we have to go beyond that   I think this is really excellent point to close  this conversation not only about yeah observation   from different domains so again I have a huge 

respect for you and such honor to talk to you   and being here in person deeply appreciate  it thanks so much thank you very [Music] much [Music]