Jacques Vallee: UFOs - Messengers of Deception?

Transcript

H good day all we're lucky enough to be joined today by the legendary jacqu valet we've recently published jacques's classic book messengers of deception UFO contacts and Cults is a Kindle ebook and Jack has been kind enough to take time to chat about the book with us and Associated topics probably um welcome jacqu well I I don't know where to say good morning or good afternoon Happy Thanksgiving Happy Thanksgiving same to you uh just by opening up I just wanted to ask jacqu uh you open messenges of deception by speculating how the real secret kept by the intelligence Community about UFOs is that they were only pretending to know everything about them but in reality they knew nothing despite having probably more data on them than anybody else after the 2017 Revelations and all the speculation regarding Legacy programs has your opinion on that changed um my opinion has been reinforced by by Congress of of all people because they've said exactly that that um we we know now that there is a a a real mystery that you know we've heard the the director of the CIA saying that this was not explained by any of the systems that they monitored and uh but we still don't know um very much about what it is and in fact I watching the the debates and watching the the interaction with Witnesses in Chambers uh reminds me absolutely of what it was like 50 years ago probably most of certainly you two and and most of your listeners weren't there 20 years ago watching the uh you know the panels uh before Congress but um you know Dr HCK testified Carl Sean testified Dr MacDonald testified and the questions were exactly the same what do you think it is uh how can we distinguish from balloons and and then Skeptics would come up and say no no no we can we can explain all of that with uh you know shooting stars and and and and so on and and we're going through the same thing now but so in history that that never happens it's never quite the same thing because we have lots uh we have better sensors I think that's the main difference they the Jets today are equipped with exquisite physical instruments to determine what it is that they that they are chasing whether it's Friend or Foe and and also the communication is with the ground but also with awax at higher altitude and all of that is well documented so it it's not the same thing but What I Hear uh and I think that those are very honest statements is that there is a mystery we can now state that but we still don't know where it belongs does it does it belong to atmospheric physics in some way uh is it uh is it a cosmic phenomenon of some sort or is is it are these objects but they've pretty much excluded and they said on the record these are not Chinese and these are not Russian so uh We've made some progress but in terms of uh research we have not learned anything new about the Identity or about the characteristics like for example in your journals you speculated that the 1990 wave in in Belgium was the cause of man-made craft the Triangular craft that flew over cities so you do you think some of these could actually be craft built by someone here on this planet some government or some well um if if you follow the technical literature if you if you read uh the aviation week and Aviation magazines uh that's entirely within uh what we can do uh there was a uh there was an investigation by the French c cnes space agency um about the the Belgian uh triangles now those those were fairly small machines they were not they were not like the large triangles large dark triangles that people are seeing now they were the the size of a large truck for example or even smaller than that size of a big car and uh they evolved at very high speeds and they had lights on them and they were entirely within Belgium at the time except for one and if you look at the map you'll see that the Border between France and Belgium goes like a sine wave it goes like this and uh there was one object that landed in France so uh France felt that they could send somebody there without violating any International sensitivities and they uh actually a friend of mine uh went there and took some samples they were they were traced is on the ground and so on and in in the grass and he immediately and they came to the to the conclusion that this was a flying machine that was a human flying machine now the best speculation I've heard no I'm not an expert in this but the best speculation I've heard was that those were um essentially robot hard balloons that could stand and if you were going to have a local engagement not a full War but a local engagement uh for example with terrorist organizations and so on and you needed something that would be a relay for communication over a a large zone or over a large city city these things were disables and they could stop and just hover for a long time at at high altitude so they they couldn't be shut down and um that that idea was U reinforced by the fact that uh when uh the the war started in in Iraq you know um you know when we started bombing Iraq all these triangle seen in Belgium were seen on trajectories that brought them back to Germany and after that there was nothing more in in Belgium the whole wave stopped so the implication was that there were testing it in Belgium and that it was redirected to the Middle East when the war started which makes sense I mean these would be fairly inexpensive machines no Pilots so they're not engaging human life and they could monitor um you know an area where there was combat now that's a speculation I I don't know anybody who has you know proven that or endorsed that but uh that that the you know the sequence of events tends to indicate that in terms of like investigating cases like that in uh messengers of deception you criticize The Carter administration's decision to ask NASA to deal with the UFO problem um I'm just wondering with with the recent news that NASA is being engaged to investigate the phenomenon do you still have that problem with NASA being involved at at the time um I was working with Professor sto at Stanford we were working on on some NASA research as well and so we had very good contacts with NASA with the scientists at Nasa and Professor sturak was very intrigued and wanted to bring help if NASA wanted help and so uh I went to Washington and I met with fairly high level people at Nasa that we knew and um they were fairly um they they were trying not to get the assignment they didn't feel that number one that you know their budget is voted by Congress on a year-to-year basis so they have no long-term view for any excess funds that they can allocate to just a new idea that the president has you know if the president wants that should allocate a special budget for that but it's not the NASA budget was very constrained it still is as as you may know uh so this was not something they wanted to do and also the NASA doesn't have the the ability to respond to public you know to the kind of public demand that do with the Air Force can because the Air Force has spokes people in every parts of the country uh but NASA doesn't so it would all land on two or three people at headquarters who did didn't really have the information one journalist um was amused by this in Washington and he came out with absolutely a classic statement that I always remembered said that the the presidential request sent the space agency into a flurry of alarmed paralysis um so the the idea of alarmed paralysis was was with with NASA for a long time they were very much afraid that they would be Force to do that of course the Air Force wanted to get rid of it um and that's why they you know they had been there that study in Colorado and finally the Air Force was rid of it and could fly airplanes again instead of tracking UFOs and and weather balloons so um today uh I think the first attempt to engage NASA resulted in um you know what the Americans call a nothing Burger um that wasn't very tasty they they they they got a group together to study who had never really looked at the question as you know there are hundreds of thousands of of cases in the computers and so on they didn't have time to even look at you know 10 of them but they these were scientists to express some ideas about how you would build a methodology to do that but the with NASA you have to look you know as within a government you have to look at the budget the budget for that presidential study was $100,000 okay um so you know you can't even buy a a high-end car for that amount of money okay so um that tells you something so the uh so DARPA putting some money behind it they put I think a million dollars uh so that the study had a little bit more you know uh reality to it and and they came up with some some interesting opinions U I think now uh NASA is more ready to engage uh remember that the the administrat is a former astronaut of longstanding and and great experience and uh he his last statements indicated that he was intrigued by the subject but again knowing where NASA is spending its money right now which is very constrained I I don't see somebody would have to change their budget with with a special special allocation to do this and then they would have to recruit people because uh within NASA you do not have the much of the capability to do a full study of this when you look at the psychological aspects whe I mean they do have psychologist and they do have biologist of course because of the human uh you know uh program but it's it's very focused and uh it it doesn't cover the areas you would have to cover right like uh in messengers of deception you were worried that NASA wouldn't look into some of the most important aspects of the phenomenon like for example the physiological effects that are there are uh caused by a UFO encounter whether uh detrimental in case of I don't know Burns or or or other things like what happened with the uh Witnesses in in Brazil or sometimes even cases in which the health of the witness is improved you know with cases that you investigated yourself the famous Dr X case in France I think there was another one that you mention in your books Jack gas so yeah obviously NASA has a very narrow idea of what the phenomenon is supposed to be this expectation obviously coming from outer space right the eth and I think that maybe we need to go through other institutions like Academia Academia is now obviously more open to entertaining the UFO problem and there seems to be more progress in that regard in the recent years would you agree well remember that the from the point of view of the public the cases that make a big impact are the close encounters and the close encounters are not tracked to outer space the the objects appear essentially on the spot they are seen interacting with animals or people and and the environment and then they they lift off and you know as in the case at Valen Sol it it dis appeared about 20 M away from the witness and it it just vanished and again those are the cases that to to to my you know to my mind are are the most pregnant the most important in terms of new physics you know how do you do that without sound without special special effects around it without uh I have um you know personal reports from people who did not want to be on record but were highly competent people who ran companies you know in Silicon Valley and elsewhere who told me that they and their families had seen objects flying at fairly low altitude you know at Treet toop level and then merging with the atmosphere and disappearing on the spot as they were moving slowly okay this is not something and the the the Skeptics or my you know some of my science friends say well you know if if they go up very fast the eye cannot follow that's true but they were not going fast they were moving slowly when you could see the what people call Windows you could see lights on it and then you could still see the lights but you couldn't see the object anymore and this is in a clear sky and then the lights themselves go dim and they disappear and this has merged with the atmosphere I mean or it has gone completely out of our space our space time which is not surprising for you know a physicist um I mean there are theories about that that are taught in school uh but they to me that's why why UFOs are interesting they they give us a a you know a proof of a theorem a proof of a theory that we can study but first we have to gain the the trust of the witnesses and today the witnesses who see that kind of thing are not stupid enough to report it to anybody but that was um I was kind of thinking in terms of you know you you've investigated a lot of high strangeness and close encounter aspects and you used to hear a lot about that back you know in the contact te era and the 70s but you don't hear so much about it anymore is that the reason that people are just too scared to come forward so I I i' I've wondered about that um if if you look carefully you'll see that those Cults still exist but they have moved to another dimension themselves by moving to the Internet so they move to the internet Dimension and now they can have members you know in Africa in Asia in Siberia in you know in in Canada in Australia everywhere and they don't need to advertise as much they don't need to March down the streets of San Francisco you know chanting uh their their their messages to the aliens they can they can do that in cyberspace which is a lot easier and um they uh they still exist and uh you know including uh including some of the cases some of the sects that uh I U I had tracked in in in messages of deception um so um you know they they they have not disappeared if anything some of their speculation has moved into um into the scientific language more and more uh because science has moved towards them in a way you know I mean uh if if there are now things that can appear disappear on the spot and so on then um maybe some of the people were describing that we thought were um under the influence of drug or under uh sort of dreams and Visions uh maybe those have a basis of something in reality that we haven't discovered yet so they are still there and I I think if there is disclosure that's one of the dangers that it would release all of that and it could overwhelm the you know the the the articulated scientific debate that that we imagine that we like to have that brings it to another questions like in messengers of deception you sounded the alarms to the real dangers of UFO Cults rising from the shall we say the leftwing counterculture of the 1970s and how science's failure along with government military to provide answers to the public left a vacuum in which this cult leaders could Prosper but in the modern days this seems to have flipped completely and the dominant cult like behavior in many parts of the world comes from the extreme right like many of the young people especially young men who are listening to podcast and influencers like uh you know the influencers who promote B are are the same ones who promote the dangers of vaccines and other conspiratorial or anti-science views you know so I don't know what are your thoughts on that Trend like in the 1970s this type of rhetoric came from the you know 70s anti-government counterculture and now it seems to come from the right-wing government culture I I think that the the government no whatever that is but you know the the official uh statements um always pushing the there have been three times in history where quote disclosure could have taken place okay and in in the late 50s early 60s certainly in the days when I was working with Dr heck uh there could have been a disclosure the disclosure that like we have now that there is something and we don't know what it is and it's very interesting and people would have taken it in stride with the new things in science you know the the new satellites going to the moon the success of the Moon missions all of that that could have been part of that and we could have taught some science you know to the public in in terms of that yes well science is about Mysteries we don't pay scientists to redo the experiments that we know work you know the experiments we've done 50 years ago we pay them to look at the things we don't understand yet and so uh that would have been to me I mean that's what I I know what Dr heik expected and was looking for I was trying to work towards that didn't happen so the Air Force got tired of having to do all this useless work and they there was a Condon report the Condon report could have been an opportunity know Professor Condon could have said could have left the door open and to some extent he tried to do that you know he didn't say there was nothing he said there there is not enough for science to really invest in this now that's essentially which was understood to mean that there was nothing and we can we can move on okay that was a misunderstanding but of course that's what certainly the government wanted to be rid of the the whole thing and and move on um so that was a second missed opportunity but in the meantime people continue to see things and people know that those things are real now and there is more and more evidence for it in their environment on farms you know on uh on on the land on on roads and so on people are are seeing all this so um there is a you know A disruption in in the discourse between between people and the and the government and I think that's dangerous and it didn't need to come to that but now um the people are not necessarily going to believe uh what they are told even if they are told that they are given some explanation for what's going on um there there is the the belief is much deeper and do you think like in modern day with the internet influencers and podcasters are they stepping into that uh Gap that's left by science to try and take you know influence people's beliefs I I think people would TR will trust more the independent broadcasters who admit their mistakes occasionally and and try to follow and try to ask the right questions rather than uh official statements because official statements are going to be constrained by security because there there is a large amount as we all know that has not seen the light of day as as a senior senator um uh told the press one day and and and that's not um necessarily unexpected I mean the there there are things that legitimately should remain secret so I'm not saying you know let's open everything and you know um because we for one thing we don't know how to do that but we we don't have the categories and a lot of the work that you know we can imagine has been going on that is still classified is by Def by definition very complex and yeah it it cannot be released with a few General statements mhm in the most recent um senat in the most recent senatorial hearing Senator gbrand stated I've met with people who have thousands of examples thousands of data meaning UFO reports which she talking about you I I'm not the only one who has worked on that uh as you may know I I I was part of the the bigo classified project and and I was in in charge of the of the cataloges and we we built a data warehouse uh accumulating known cases and new cases from all over the world so we had um translators from Russian Portuguese french Spanish and you know on the team and then investigators who could go out and car that is I'm not telling you any any secret we did that that database is still classified but yes it's it's 280,000 cases that have been at least have gone through the first level of examination in other words it's not just you know a kid who saw the Moon Rising through the fog you know or something like that or a balloon uh but that still would have to be exploited to extract the actually the best cases that you could turn over to scientists and that hasn't been done because the project stopped after after two years so that's the status of it but the yes the the the cases are are there there are other people who have built cataloges as well and uh obviously this is something that some somebody could start from again in light of that I wanted to ask you about uh your opinion of Dr shank K pratick I don't know have you talked to him because as an outsider it's there seems to be like some kind of like cognitive dissonance to what public is receiving on all these hearings you it's almost like uh I don't know Sean kpatrick telling to his kid sorry kid despite how much we've investigated there is no evidence of Santa Claus and then you have the other people who saying you know not only there is a Santa Claus but he left you a pony buried you know beneath all these horse manure that we found and we need your help to dig it up so it's it's a bit of a cognitive dissonance that that I find puzzling so I don't know what is what is your take on this well um I I I think it's fairly natural that people would bring their own opinions I think people who have seen UFOs or uaps especially at close distance uh now that that includes scientists it includes business people it includes it includes you know Financial tycoons and uh uh a couple of uh you know high level legislators so um it's natural that people would argue about that just like they argued about you know was covid a real epidemic or was it fake or was it part of something else and or was it just a you know a monkey that escaped from somewhere in China uh people are entitled to their opinions based on their experience um uh good or bad and uh I think that's natural but the the purpose of the scientific investigation especially if it's paid for by you know by the state uh should be to to establish some points of of verified knowledge and so far that hasn't happen MH uh talking about the colaris cases that I mentioned before I don't know if you have followed the news recent news about more recent cases happening not only in Brazil but also in Peru I think it was in 2023 that uh some indigenous tribes were complaining to the authorities that they were being harassed by these men in like flying Contraptions like they described them using popular culture references like the Green Goblin in the Spider-Man movie and then the authorities like the Bon the cases they say they were only illegal loggers like trying to scare the villagers which to me as a Mexican seems totally ridiculous Mexico has a lot of illegal logging and they don't perform that kind of like theatrics if they want to get rid of villagers that are in the way of their business they just kill them you know simple as that so I don't know have you followed those uh newer cases in in in that part of the world uh not uh not recently uh but I'm I'm working on book number six in the Forbidden Science series and you'll see that um a few years ago I went back to Brazil and I went to Argentina and uh I I went to some other countries and um I I think that that kind of situation continues and but I went there with a different uh Having learned something from the earlier trips that I took um much more specific uh not just to learn generally what people were seeing seeing and how they reacted but really trying to focus on the interaction uh and especially in Brazil on claims of people being killed and um I know Brazil is very complex the the culture is very rich and and very complex in its richness both in terms of belief systems that are that impinge on the interpretation of the cases and and also on how things are reported in in different parts of the country which is as you know larger than the United States so uh the the question is uh what what is the right methodology to really have access to this what what I could do in a couple of weeks or three weeks or a month wasn't enough to to to really get to your question I think I this is where I think the right methodology would be to create groups of people who knew the countries I would not go to Brazil today know the only reason reason I I took three or four actually four trips to Brazil was that I was going with people who knew Brazil had lived there were including Americans who had lived there and worked there and uh obviously spoke the language and had contacts so we knew how to operate in a way that was conducive to good contact with the local population that they would they would accept us they would understand why we came they would understand that we were not just you know Americans looking to make money exploiting whatever they were saying you know and that that we were truly doing research and that was that was very rich but you you need several teams like that you know uh south of Brazil has a culture that's very different from the on obviously and and from the culture around R de Janeiro so uh what we what we have and what we hear are bits and pieces of things where somebody has sent a team of three people or four people to gather some records and bring them back um so I think that's still an open field I don't have a good answer to question um just one of the things that stood out just to change the subject a little bit um in messengers of deception that everyone remarks on is how you brought up the Heaven's Gate cult basically before everyone else knew about them uh you you investigated the two people behind that in the 1970s um and wasn't until the 1990s that they there was a mass suicide of 39 members um just wondering do you think anything could have been done by authorities in the intervening years to avert that tragedy or do you just have to let those sorts of things play out and no matter how tragic they become um I I don't think the lessons have been learned and I had attended um the I knew some people who had been I had been contacted by some people who had members of their family essentially lost to the family because they had gone off with the sect at the beginning uh in the Midwest and then in in California uh that happened again and I I continued to engage with them trying to understand the process by which um you know I I I I I related in one of my books a meeting at Stanford on campus where the the leaders the two leaders of the sect with two of their followers uh and gay who had left their family had left everything to follow them uh were trying to recruit Stanford students to come join the sect leave their family leave their studies behind so um that um you know inspired me to to the extent that I I had I had a voice at the time with radio and with with the publication of my books to try to warn people about that and that's why I and most people in euphology said in serious study of UFOs said well the these people I mean what can you do I mean they're crazy they're saying those things and that's that's always been like that and it doesn't matter they are wrong well we may believe they are wrong but uh they were recruiting Believers several hundred people were now all across the country uh listening to them and listening to nobody else not to their parents not to their peers not to to their teachers not especially not to the government because they thought that there was something coming that was imminent and that sense of imminence is still here now I mean look at how often people say we're about to have disclosure you know next week and uh you know we have the national election and the new president of course the first thing he going to do is to disclose um which is POS but uh We've we've heard that before and the the imminence was enhanced at the time for the the the followers um of of Heaven's Gate it was a beautiful movement when when you look at what they were saying it was very pure it was a rejection of all the dirty things in American culture you know let's go back to basics let let's go back to you know living in the country having a a sane clean life and worshiping the other level of you know of thought and and Consciousness and and because they are coming to get us and then what precipitated it was somebody body in I think in Florida was tracking a comet and he was tracking a comet with a telescope that he had built and you know I can identify to that because I built my own telescope when I was a kid and uh it wasn't very good well his telescope wasn't very good and it gave a double image of the Comet and he thought that something was following the comet at the same speed as which is a very high speed which meant it was a spaceship and then people started endorsing you know uh that statement uh going on TV including unfortunately some people who were highly visible at the time to because of their books or because of their uh media presence and they were believable they did not go check the T TC I mean the thing to do is you go there and you sit down with the kid at night and you look through his telescope and you do some test of the lenses and they nobody did that and astronomers didn't do that because it was so obvious to them that they were they didn't need to go there they were looking at the comet and there was only one Comet there was there was nothing tracking the comet and they knew that so they thought well this kid you know needs to learn more about about building telescope and that but the the people who took it seriously should have looked or should have asked somebody to go check and uh that resonated with the Cults the cult said this is it you know I mean the spaceship is following the Kat and it's going to land here and pick us up and so we need to die so that our soul s can be lifted and people said well they were crazy kids I I don't think they were crazy kids I I looked at the their writing their journals their their thing they were kids like the kids from Stanford you know we're listening to that I don't think anybody from Stanford went there because their parents were paying too much for their their education but uh the uh it it was very moving they were not crazy kids there were kids who were looking for something pure something at a higher level and that higher level was coming and very tragic and people did not understand the tragedy but yes it could have been predicted and you know uh I I predicted it that you know you you could see that was coming yeah is there a parallel there as you mentioned with you know modern disclosure you know you've got all these people that are seeing something that they want to see that is something better than what they think Society is at the moment do you you know is is there a warning there from the modern disclosure adherence well um you know that's in a way uh one of the there is nothing wrong with that I mean that's one of the bases of religion that you look at the sky and in the sky you see something that looks perfect as an astronomer I can tell you it's not perfect there is a a bunch of um you know Atomic Fusion reactions and explosions out there but it from you know if if if you look out at night it looks it looks perfect and that's where salvation you know comes tradition so it's not um it's something that's deeply engra in engaged in in our culture yeah uh in terms of uh these cult-like movements that you investigated in messengers of deception I wanted to talk to you about one of my favorite stories in euphology which is the UMO Affair yes which which is probably more popular in Latin American countries and Europe than it was in the United States and you wrote messengers of deception before Jose Luis hordan Peña came out and confessed that he was the author of The UMO letters although nevertheless he always maintained that he had received help from the CIA or some intelligence group in in order to pull out the hoax so I don't know all after all these years do you think there is grounds to believe that there might have been some group intelligence government group involved in this and also how do we explain the fact that the UMO symbol was reported in cases that have not been the that seem totally genuine which is for example the famous vones Landing in the former Soviet Union in 1989 so so th those are two different questions I know the uh the UMO first uh got be known in Spain with um a um a book by Antonio Ribera uh who was a friend of mine somebody I I enjoyed very much working with and one of the first investigators in Spain at the time when Spain was divided between you know rationalists who were very much politically you know inclined and no interest in UFOs and then very strong Catholic movement you know the oppus day and and everything else that they wanted nothing to do with uh with UFOs so most most UFO cases were repressed in Spain for a long time not anymore as you know but the um UMO came in the middle of that with as a proof the tangible proof with photographs and devices and Communications and a very complex book of uh astrophysics uh that U could be translated from on the umite language and so on there were umite dictionaries and um you know several of us took look try to look at that seriously including Dr perir who thought that who looked at the text and the text seemed to have some very Advanced ideas in in astrophysics well I I looked at that also along along with Cloe and you know the the there are Advanced idea in astrophysics that are not necessarily published but they are discussed you know at seminars and so on and there were the the idea from UMO were very very similar to some ideas that some Russian astrophysicists had about multiple universes or about a double Universe you know do we have a twin Universe with which we can interact and uh that idea is very interesting theoretically uh but the question is if it were like that how would we know I mean what experiment could be design to communicate with that other universe and there is nothing in physics that forbids it by the way you know it it it it it could be right but we didn't have any proof of it but UMO pretended that they had proof of it and that's why they could move uh the way they did um I I I felt you know very quickly came to the conclusion that this was a hoax because some of the supposed materials were not available they were lots of Lies there were lots of and so I after a while I I wrote that book you know trying to dispel it and and I didn't look at it again until um I found that the the group that was be behind it was also in Argentina and you know that in a subsequent book I I had some pictures of the the thing from Argentina and so on so so obviously it was a cult that was being populated within the spanishs speaking World both in South America and in Europe and but it after a while it didn't really go anywhere so the question is it could be just some people having fun it could be people who genuinely believe something and then are fed strange ideas by someone writing to them I mean I got Anonymous letters from UMO in in in Paris and and also in Chicago so somebody knew at the time knew my address and uh sent me those Anonymous letters and they were covered with strange characters and they essentially repeated the same story and they were mailed from strange places around the world but you know if you have some friends you can do that you can you know stamp collectors do that all the time because they get they want to get stamps from all over the world so uh this was I didn't take it very very seriously one other people continued to do investigation and they ended up looking at a uh a special unit of the uh Spanish uh police that um might have been creating so why would you do that well for one thing once you create this little cult all you need is maybe 30 or 40 people around the world who believe in what you're sending them and are waiting for the next one and you can use that to splice scientific ideas that are very Advanced that somebody there so most of it is Trivial but some of it is very advanced in science and then somebody could pick it up and it could be a way of communicating with spice somewhere they covering it under something that everybody's going to throw into the trash can except that yeah there is 50 pages of junk but there is two paragraphs that they very important because there are new science uh it could be a way of uh gathering information from different countries that are closed um uh or it it could be a test of how many people will believe you if suppose that there is an emergency and you need to launch a uh a precautionary idea to to make people believe that everything's all right how would you do it what kind of strange group could you create quickly that would be would have your your message and uh so all those things are you know have been researched by sociologists there are many books about about that kind of thing but UMO was very very colorful and that has been picked up again recently there was an idea of a that was uh populated through uh the space uh science circles in the US that we were much more advanced than anybody thought that we already had 15 people on Mars that you know we had all that and that came from this was we we know now that this was a hoax from within the government I mean within the intelligence project Sero right the project serpo Hox yes and uh it it was it wasn't done as well as UMO UMO had the astronomy right when they said which sty they came from and so on Sero came you know from a bunch of stars that couldn't just would never tolerate life so there was uh and and the calculations were wrong the calculations in umu were not wrong that's why Dr po was intrigued because you had to know some astrophysics to to do it whoever did Sero was you know flanked astrophysics now the the other part of your question was what about the UMO symbol in Von well um if you look at the literature which uh somebody did recently there's a intelligent uh engine software engine that has a lot of data about vones and so but they um you know I I I I went to Russia when it was still the Soviet Union but nobody knew exactly what that meant in the days of garbev okay and I I went there because of vones uh because I you know everybody in the west was laughing at those you know that the they thought it was a joke by the taas agency well the I didn't think that was a joke I thought something had happened in VES from other sources so I convinced a a journalist at L Figaro to count I knew I couldn't write to no uh to the to to Russia but Le Figaro was a highly respected newspaper French newspaper in in Russia so uh we were actually invited there uh and they told us that you know they said who do you want to meet with and I said we want to meet with the investigators from Veron so they they actually shipped they they paid for u a team of five people from Veron who had done the investigation to come meet with us in Moscow um and uh with their papers with the photographs with everything else and one of the questions I had for them is what about the UMO symbol I mean what what is it doing if if you're telling us that this was real that there that these objects showed up and there were these very strange phenomena around Veron uh what about the UMO symbol and they laughed and they said um look there were some young investigators who you know were very enthusiastic about UFOs but they thought that for the message to be taken seriously in the west there should be some symbol attached to it that's a veridical a real symbol you know of of something extraterrestrial so they they painted the veres symbol on a real photograph and I I I wanted to tear my my hair out you know I said why did they do that I mean they they convinced everybody that it was a joke because those symbols you know were not were discredited in the west but they they had read some book you know they don't get all the books they want and sociologically that was just a perfect case and then we we looked at the data they had and you know I I I think Veron was a very interesting case for one thing vones is not a small town you know Veron is over a million people and a a major Center of uh nuclear nuclear it industry nuclear power in in the the old Soviet Union and the new Russia I know you have to go soon jacqu but I just need to hit you up on one more question in um Messengers you spoke about having a synchronicity the everyone kind of knows about it now the the name of melc um and then you kind of went on to pose this theory about an associative Universe explains synch ities and I don't think people really grasped it at the time because you were a computer scientist but many other people weren't into computers back then but now in the modern day with search engines and website cookies and all that we understand that idea a lot more that doing something here might turn up over here in the same way you know so and I think it's just a beautiful way to explain how synchronicities might happen I was just wondering if you've done any more um work on that theory or was it just something that you came up with and kind of left your mind um well you know more people have been reporting interesting synchronicities very striking ones and uh I've continued to notice when things like that happened to me they were not as you know clear and Sensational as but you know some of them were would you have to sit up and no realize what what's happening you cannot just rush it off and I I felt as most people take it as a signal of something as a signal that they are doing something right that or that they've been chosen for something and which is fine and maybe they're right but I came to the conclusion that this happened by chance that that this but but by a little bit more than chance that you channel the chance in in a certain way by selecting out of all the events that can happen you're selecting events that match some sort of meta thinking that that you're doing unconsciously and it it picks up it makes these events happen now as you know there is a theory that we live in a simulation and those are not you know could be combined if we live in a simulation then my my mind somehow could pick up the things in the simulation that precipitate alongside you know what I'm interested in today and that precipitation should be what I'm could be what I'm noticing and that would be a natural thing phenomenon it would not be something unusual I mean it would be unusual statistically because it's not what happens to me all the time but it it it could be precipitated out of a mechanism that doesn't really mean anything special for me in the future so that's the way I'm thinking about it now MH well it's been a real pleasure chatting to you today Jack we we really appreciate you taking the time like I said uh red pill and I could just talk to you for 24 hours I think so we we better let you go uh thanks very much for joining us today thank you very much thanks both of you