UFO whistleblowers: Lue Elizondo calls David Grusch a 'hero' | Reality Check with Ross Coulthart

Transcript

hello and welcome to reality chick I'm Ross cart and what a week it's been very very busy indeed of course this show we're going to focus very strongly on the interview I did with Lou alzando the former Pentagon UFO investigator and his book imminent and we're bringing my good friend and colleague Merrick Von renen camp in to help me do the anal is but before we roll Merrick in I do want to talk about the breaking news of the appointment of a new Arrow director this is the pentagon's UFO UAP investigation office Arrow the all domain anomaly resolution office and the interim director since October 2023 since Dr sha Kirkpatrick departed has been Tim Phillips and he's now been announced by the defense department to be being replaced by a Dr John T klosi who's come to us from the National Security Agency and I have to say Dr John klosi is extremely well spoken of by people I respect and admire in the UAP field people say he's very very genuine about bringing a new approach to Arrow not that he's hypocritical of his predecessors but that he does want to try and restore public confidence in Arrow after frankly what has been months of turmoil one of the first tests of Dr John T kloski of course is going to be whether he retains Dr shaan Kirkpatrick in the rather unusual role he's had as a kind of semic consultant to Arrow where he's been commenting in his role as a former director of Arrow and being given I think undue emphasis I think because of his past role as a director of Arrow so it'll be very very interesting to see whether Dr Shan Shan Kirkpatrick is kept on in that role by klosi but what I can tell you about klosi is he's pretty impressive he comes from the NSA which is of course one of America's Premier spy agencies he's been involved in what sounds like incomprehensibly complicated research leading Mission oriented search in the fields of networking and Computing he's a subject matter expert in the area of free space Optics whatever that is advising various DOD agencies in addition to his Optics research and crypto mathematics Dr kloski invented an advanced language agnostic search engine and served at the dod special Communications Enterprise office I have no idea what that means I I took a peek earlier at 2 patents that Dr kloski has patented and found them so incomprehensible I'm not even going to try and tell you what they are he's got a Bachelor's degree in mathematics and physics from California State University San Bernardino and a PhD in electrical engineering from John Hopkins University and just to give you a summary of his work the focus of his doctoral research was the invention of Novel devices that leverage principal from Quantum Optics to receive very weak phase encoded signals clear as mud well what I can tell you that does make sense is kloski is very well spoken of by people who want change and want a greater degree of transparency and openness by the Pentagon and frankly whilst I'm not a huge fan of Arrow and I've been very critical of Arrow I think this is potentially a very positive move and uh it's going to I think be incumbent on all of us to give Dr klosi a chance let's show him good faith and let's see how he moves by the way if anybody wants a job I noticed that there's also a arrow Deputy Chief of Staff going you can be based in Virginia or Alexandria and you would be the chief of staff for Arrow and uh you'd have a top secret c clearance so if anybody wants the job it's up on the um up on the od. goov website Aro Chief of Staff start date 20th of October so it looks like they're hiring which is good news now before we get into this week's show I want to also show you an interview section that we didn't run in the L elisondo interview purely and simply because of time a lot of folk have been asking me why Lou elzando made no comment about David grush and before the rumor mill starts can I say Lou spoke extremely highly of David grush and the decision not to include the particular comment that I'm about to show you in the program was purely and simply made because of time but a lot of folk I think have attached a lot of importance to the fact that there was no mention of David grush and the Lou alzando interview so I thought it would be important for people to see just how highly Lou alzando regards David grush and how he shares the travil and the pain that David grush has been through for being a whistleblower David of course is the guy that I interviewed in June last year for news Nation when he went public as a former very senior intelligence officer formerly with the National geospatial Intelligence Agency speaking about his knowledge of a retrieval and reverse engineering program involving uaps here's what Lou alzando said this is a dangerous battle you're fighting Lou there are forces powerful forces that don't want this story told oh yeah and they go to Great length to to to keep it keep it a secret look what happened to poor Dave you know I worked with David space force I don't know if that's public knowledge but I'll say it what the hell he and I were working the UAP topic for space force for a very good man a senior guy very senior guy by the way and this was all in the open so I mean this was this was acknowledged at the time and um he did the right thing you know a lot of our our service men and women suffer deeply from PTSD and until recently we were always told you know it can affect your security clearance don't don't seek psychological help and then something happened somebody who I respected quite a bit and thankfully it was it was General Clapper when he became the dni he said we're not going to hold our men and women anymore responsible if they go and seek mental counseling and they self-referral because of PTSD the horrible things that they have to endure in combat they should not be penalized from their security clearance right so what happened with Dave gr when he did the right thing he did exactly what he was supposed to do some nanoid reporter gets information from none other than who two people from inside the government to say h Dave had had had counseling well wait a minute that's exactly what you want someone to do if they need it because a suicide rate for our men and women in uniform is through the roof and you know what no one seems to really give a so this is why we had to change the policy so for David doing the right thing the very first thing he does within 24 hours they start seaing dissension and they start misinformation and trying to question his loyalty and his credibility David grou is a patriot and in my book he's he he's a damn fine human being and a hero for what he did and what was his reward from that what was his reward for that immediately the antibodies came out and they try to discredit him just like they tried to do me just like they try to do anybody else who comes out and steps out of out of rank so as you can see a glowing endorsement from Lou alzando for David grush now let's move on to Today's Show and boy we've got a lot ahead of us here we go [Music] Lou sat down with me last Friday and gave a very detailed one-on-one interview which ran in Prime Time on news nation and we've had an overwhelming response and in order to do the analysis of that show and follow up on some of the issues that Lou raised I'm bringing in marrick Von renen Camp who's a former uh National Security advisor to the state department and a Obama admin Administration appointee to the Pentagon the Department of Defense but before I bring m in I I want to tell you about a product that happily is sponsoring reality check and which also addresses some of the egregious food that you Americans happen to eat and it's all about the gut cleanse bio complete 3 uh the the theory that is pushed by the gut cleanse biocomplete 3 product is that there is a potential toxin in all of the quote healthy foods that scientists have been telling us to eat with a fraudulent food pyramid for some 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would get to the bottom of these explosive allegations that we're hearing from multiple individuals so Ross congratulations you did a superb job um and love to dive into the details with you so I should explain that marrick is very much a journal in his own right he's a he's a contributing uh commentator for the hill which is a sister publication with the um the network that we all belong to the nextar network and Merrick I love your pieces if we're going to give each other a mutual admiration Society I I think everybody should read the hill contributions made by Merck because he adds a depth and a contribution to the issue that frankly in television we're not able to do quite often I do agree with you that Lou's contribution was significant and I think the the passing of the legislation that's coming up in the National Defense authorization act at the end of this year is going to be absolutely crucial I have to admit I'm not optimistic I'm I'm a bit Grim uh having been in Washington to shoot the L interview and seen what Lou's up against the very few people like Lando are up against on the hill is a very determined uh cadra of Gatekeepers in the defense Aerospace industry frankly mck who just do not want this story told and uh I just want you to have a look at this clip this was an exchange that I had with Lou uh basically with the Congress as a backdrop and uh intriguingly with the Smithsonian science M Museum which I thought was quite apt as as a as a background as well and we were talking about how reluctantly he's become very much the face of the UAP issue so Lou when you first started out in this campaign I mean it was back in 2008 you first heard of UFOs you had no idea about the phenomenon did you no clue not at all never even thought about it and yet what was it 9 years later 2017 you were the public face of a New York Times story that rocked the world one of the public faces not the public face look this was this has always been a team effort it strikes Lou you're a very humble person you are very much the reluctant hero in this campaign aren't you look I it it can't be about me right you know I'm doing this so you can think on your own don't don't rely on me on Lou alzando to tell you what to think that's that's the exact opposite of what I'm trying to achieve I'm trying to enable everyone the American people these folks up here that's what my goal is so you want people to get up there and start asking questions of Theon Congress people absolutely and I got to tell you there's people right now in that building that are very keen to get to the bottom of this and they're committed I mean these are on both sides both Republican and Democrat even independent this is this is truly a bipartisan issue any thoughts on what L just said to us there mik well Ross um first of all I want to highlight that um this is and as Lou made very clear this is one of perhaps the only issues or one of very few issues that is truly bipartisan in a deeply divided country and in a politically fractured Nation so um I I do want to highlight I know I know uh uh there is some pessimism about the uh legislation that is in front of Congress but I do want to highlight that perhaps maybe U you know be highlight the positive and the more optimistic side of of this and that is that um this has United the the all of the kind of different factions in American politics whether it is is uh Democrats the more um Maga Trump Republicans and more moderate Republicans um we've seen a a remarkable kind of coalescing around the the members of Congress who are interested in this um and and we really need to see uh more step up and become more vocal but um lose right um you know there there is certainly um a lot of work ahead but it is a bipartisan issue and that deserves uh a closer look and uh certainly some analysis and examination I think the thing that sticks out for me is Lou is as he acknowledges he's quite a humble guy he doesn't like being the focus of attention but the reality is what really struck me when I was filming with him over several days in DC he's under incredible pressure and the decision that he made as you know a very senior serving employee of the Department to step away from that world that he'd been part of for decades and to make this decision to speak out publicly and take a stand on the UAP issue it's probably the bravest thing that he as a warrior as a combat Soldier has ever done and I I was really shocked today amik I'm going to take a swipe at the stupid s who basically made this insinuation against Lou um I won't say who it was but this idiot commented on online basically saying in the wake of his CVS U mornings interview you know this is just a cash cow for Lou alzando and that essentially all this is about is insinuating that he and we are all about making money I can tell you for Lou the costs have been intense and that's the thing that really struck me when I was filming with him is the damage that this has caused to his career the stress on his family life it's intense and I don't think the public understand the degree of sacrifice that he's making in order to bring this issue into the public domain I I couldn't agree more Ross and and it really speaks to motivations um to your point I think actually physically showing a photo of of the RV the trailer that that he lived in in your special um it drives home that that this was not easy for Lou his family um and it certainly you know uh was was an enormous stressor on his life um there's no question about that I think you know he saw as as Chris melon has has elucidated he saw a major national security vulnerability a gap an extraordinary Gap that nobody was paying attention to um and you know he he's been hammered he's been um attacked relentlessly um online and by the Pentagon and so you're you're absolutely right he made some enormous sacrifices um to come forward and he is d driving the conversation forward now you know several years on from from going public and from that um fairly well-known resignation letter now um he is driving the conversation and um you know he's he's truly I think I would not be it would not be hyperbolic to say that he is one of the key catalysts behind some of the most extraordinary legislation we have seen in American history I mean seeing the Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer um put in writing in black and white non-human intelligence go proceed to list it two dozen times alongside Legacy programs which as many of your viewers know but that's the the nomenclature for these alleged programs that um retrieved and reverse engineered or attempted to reverse engineer um non-human craft and that that's not me saying that Ross that's the Senate majority leaders um black and white legislation right and and you there's been some chatter about you know hey this is just driven by staffers well um gosh i' I'd love to show those people the the the clip of Chuck Schumer on the senate floor engaging in a colloquy a scripted exchange with Senator Mike BRS a republican going back to the the bipartisan element of this um and making extraordinary statements and saying direct quote multiple credible sources have told Congress that information has been withheld illegally so with which is to quickly come full circle Lou has um catalyzed a remarkable moment in American history and if it's all nonsense um boy we we need to know and that's all the more reason to get this legislation passed and for American citizens to engage their elected representatives marrick I want to drill down into something that I know is in your area of expertise which is the inevitable criticism of L is going to be where's the evidence uh uh I mean even in the wake of the show that went to a over the weekend you know Lou's basically being criticized for making assertions that he can't back up and even on his own admission he can't back up because he's constrained by the doser the defense office pre-publication Security review which very very heavily constrains what he's allowed to talk about but you were talking there about Chuck Schumer who if I'm not mistaken Chuck's a member of the gang of eight he's member of the group of eight people in the Congress and this is why it's so significant this is why you know you could you could drive a car at people and they still wouldn't understand the significance of this Chuck Schumer is one of the guys in the Congress who is briefed isn't he into the most sensitive secrets in the United States defense and intelligence Community he's allowed to know about the waved unacknowledged special access programs the most dark secrets of all and presumably if there is a legacy UFO crash retrieval reverse engineering program one would assume that he's at least privy to some of that or do you believe that the implications of what Lou is saying are that somebody like Chuck Schumer has realized and the reason why he's so motivated about this with getting this legislation through the Congress is because he's realized there is something going on and he doesn't know about it so Ross you a lot to unpack there um you you started your show off uh you know speaking about um and I'm going to go to your to your promotional element um about the the diet that Americans have and how um processed foods are are a major factor in in American Self I think another major problem in America today is that we do not we no longer teach Civics and I think a lot of the people who comment on um on the the Schumer legislation for example have no clue about how our government fundamentally works so yes you are correct Chuck Schumer is a member of the gang of eight um a very elite group of members of Congress um who are supposed to be under the our constitution um aware of read into our most sensitive secrets and when somebody like Chuck Schumer a cautious politician comes out and author 64 pages that if you look at read it letter and spirit of that legislation it says me I somebody who should have knowledge of X Y and Z does not have that knowledge and we have quote credible evidence and testimony that indicates that information has been withheld from Congress illegally that is a anex it's an earth shattering development that I I must say I'm ashamed at the uh us media and the the mainstream media um the lack of the attention the the complete ignorance of the kind of the Monumental allegations that are part of this legislation as well as the the caliber of the individuals who are sponsoring it let alone we can take L out of this you can take individuals like Carl Nell of high ranking former army officers who said the same things David grush you can take all of them out of this if you just take the Schumer leg legislation just by itself on its own it is a remarkable um piece of of legislative uh writing that that has umen numbers of subtexts and context that need to be analyzed so do you think Schumer knows about the crash retrieval program or do you suspect he's realized that he's not been read into something that properly Congress ought to have been briefed about yeah that's a good question and and Ross I I like to deal in fact so now we're going into speculation ter territory and I want to I want to be clear that I'm speculating here and I suspect that he um I don't think he's been read in if these if these programs are actually um in existence and correct me if I'm wrong if you've heard anything else but I suspect that thanks to Lou and and his efforts and and other efforts Chris melon uh Dave brush you can go down the list I suspect that enough individuals have um come behind closed doors to Congress and have resulted that has resulted in this legislation a pet theory of mine and I I'm open to any and all alternative takes is that Schumer specifically was informed of these programs because I see a split a Schism between what Schumer and rounds are doing on one side and what Jill lebrand Rubio and and the other Sen are doing on the on the other side because you had these um last year you had two kind of competing efforts on UAP disclosure they were both complimentary they both kind of alleged the same thing but but they they seem to occur in parallel and they seem to have been stove piped and separated from each other and I find that intriguing right every indicator that we have is that Schumer and rounds have been kind of doing something in a perhaps a silo um and and could be could be because Schumer was informed perhaps by some high ranking officials privately that this is worth pursuing I could very well be wrong um but that's a possibility I'm just I'm just calling it how I see it so that's that's um I think a distinct possibility let's get into some of the detail of what Lou revealed on the news Nation interview I think one of my favorite moments if you can have a favorite moment in something like this something as serious as this is the quite extraordinary detail that he gives of an alleged biological implant some kind of alien implant being removed from a US serviceman I think at the Walter Reed Medical Hospital the military hospital um where the surgeon who is removing the object is so freaked out because it appears to be trying to avoid being captured by the surgeon and and when it's in the petri dish it even moves in the petri dish that that for me was one of the most uncanny moments you know you're literally describing what may be non-human technology implants that's right Ross and and look I here's where I have to be um maybe a little more circumspect and and maybe even skeptical and that that is a remarkable um story and and if we get more corroborating information excellent the bottom line from my perspective and I think I started with this is these are very serious people that are making these statements and allegations to your point right that is all the more reason why this legislation is so important we need to get to the bottom of that right I Lou U have nothing but utmost respect for him but we need evidence we need somebody to come forward raise their hand in front of Congress and said yes I took that specimen out of service member X go in front of Congress do it under own let's let's move this process forward so I think that the uh the point is thanks to your reporting and and your interview we now have something tangible to dig into to sink our teeth into and for Congress to pursue because nobody else is going to pursue this I guess the question though in my mind marrick is how much really is Lou's interview going to move the needle because he is susceptible let's be brutally honest about it he is susceptible to the allegation because of the constraints imposed by his dobster by that defense office pre-publication Security review he's susceptible to the allegation that he's just not providing any evidence to back up what he says that we just have to take his word you know essentially I was told something by people at Walter Reed Military Hospital that an implant was removed from a serviceman and that it was doing weird things which appeared to be evading detection I mean ultimately you're right the only way to substantiate that and to corroborate it is to bring those people before the Congress or to get them deposed in some way put maybe set them in front of a TV interview if you're out there whoever that was very happy to talk to you but the um the thing that really does make me wonder is whether the elisondo interview in itself is going to move the needle at all or whether even within the UAP Community there's going to be a kind of a ho hum you know well you know we've heard all this before these kind of claims have been made before Lou's talked about Roswell before he's basically said Roswell was real what's the evidence what do you say to that what do you say to that suggestion where's the evidence Ross um I agree completely and um I've been in touch with blue and other folks um and you know I suspect we we may be learning more if if um if certain legal elements are addressed we we may be learning more and I'll have more to say about that that um in a hill piece coming up soon but I want to really get back to um the core of your question Ross and and I I'll I'll take this back to the New York Times story that Lou helped break with um Leslie Kane and Ralph Blumenthal and that article U was published alongside two videos right the go fast and the gimbal video and all along there an aviator by the name of Ryan Graves who was intimately familiar with that incident he didn't say anything publicly until what until that video became public so I'm hoping my hope is and this is part of why I cover this story and my hope is that um when people see your special or read my piece or what have you that it it elicits some kind of some kind of Interest or it it's it lights a fire and an an individual or multiple individuals with knowledge of that uh incident or allegation feel less encumbered or or are free feel more um inspired to speak to Congress or whoever the case may be if it's the media if it's you I hope they go to you uh Ross um me too yeah so I look look I think sh shining a light on these allegations and and reducing the stigma and normalizing the conversation hopefully will will result in a a critical mass that sustains itself with more individuals coming forward I think that's the core of what we are doing here I I think that's the key point and and that's what I was looking for to hear from you which is that what Lou alzando has done is normalized this conversation I was watching before I came in for this interview I was rewatching the CBS mornings interview that he did which was only four minutes but four minutes on a very key prime time uh Network television Morning Show and it really struck me how receptive that group of interviewers were I think there were three interviewers from CBS sitting there with him they were very receptive to what Lou was saying there was no attempt to giggle or stigmatize or treat with taboo a subject that probably I reckon five six years ago before the whole New York time story broke I reckon it would have been giggled at people did they kind of sniggered at the subject of uaps now we've moved beyond that I think the public there's a wisdom of the crowd there people are basically thinking yeah you know what there is something to this so I think this the significance to me of the imminent book The Lou alzando book is that what it's doing is it's normalizing the public conversation and hopefully as you say making it possible for people who do have that direct knowledge that at the moment Lou alzando can't reveal what he knows uh to come forward I just also want to make the point it's funny it's in the course of our um research when we were checking lose bonafides that you normally do for this kind of interview I was doing a ringar around talking to people in the Congress and talking to people who have knowledge in the Pentagon of Lou elizondo's background and I don't think people quite realize the job that he was doing especially the most recent job that he was doing at USI the office of the under secretary for defense intelligence Lou was essentially a liazon with the highest level oversight bodies for special access programs inside the defense department I think it's either the the senior review group or some such body basically the body that that gets to review all of the special access programs inside the Pentagon it was Lou Who was basically at that very high level clearly highly cleared to know an enormous amount about some of America's most sensitive secrets that's the thing that leapt out to me in his book as well is that I didn't know a huge amount to be honest with you about Lou's past work and when I was talking to people trying to figure out who Lando was and trying to get to the bottom of what his role really was with ATP the pentagon's UFO investigation program a lot of people sort of slightly indicated to me one of the reasons they held such huge respect for Lou alzando was because he was such a highly cleared guy he was one of the guys who really did know all the secrets in the Pentagon at a very very high level basically because he was working out of this office in the under secretary for defense intelligence with with your knowledge of National Security how significant is L's background to an understanding of why we should take seriously what he's saying uh that that is a fantastic question and I think for the the folks that are not initiated into the kind of the nuances in the Arcane process of um of the National Security establishment um Lou had a lot of tickets what are are referred to those are the the special accesses to um compartmented secret programs and so um that is a huge part of this Lou Lou has the the the background he has the um the position um to speak from some level of authority of course we we need evidence of course we need to um verify claim X or Y no question about that but the point is we need to take people like Lou Carl Nell Dave grush seriously um there's there's this constant refrain oh we've always heard this story it's been it's been around for years and years and years well maybe they're a maybe there is a reason that has been around for years but B we have never had multiple individuals that were so highly cleared into very sensitive programs and activities basically in lock step with the core allegation and that is extraordinary that's all the more reason why we need to take this as seriously as as you and I do um but I I really you know think we need to Spur some more interest um in the media and the broader public um because this is the the the characters at um the key characters are are truly credible on their face let's put it that way it's a huge sacrifice for elzando I mean I was really struck when I was talking to him and Jen his wife the financial but also the emotional cost for him and his family just dealing with moving away from a very secure job as a fairly senior official in the Department of Defense coming out of the Shadows basically losing everything going and working for Tom belongs to the Stars Academy getting his salary cut in half living in a motor home digging his own pet toilet I mean my God it was a wretched time for the poor Blake I I have to admit seeing the pressure that he's under and and how vilified he is often by people who are completely ignorant of the sacrifices that he's making I do wonder sometimes whether he he might regret privately making the decision that he made because the public to a large degree is unappreciative of the sacrifice that he's making and I think one of the things that we we should acknowledge Merrick as part of our job as journalists is these people whistleblowers like Lou they make enormous sacrifices Dave grush Lou even Carnell Chris melon all of these people sticking their heads up there's a tendency for these people to get shot at uh purely and simply because they're taking the risk of actually sticking their head up above the parit and talking about things that are very very unpopular from within the defense department that frankly let's be honest about it a group of Gatekeepers don't want known absolutely right Ross um and that's so I I I try not to consider myself a journalist I don't have any formal journalistic training I do have a little bit of analytic training right I did worked in the government um graduate school degree really f focused on analysis National Security analysis and when I when I look at the various players Lou espe particularly Lou in this case grush Nell to your point it that does fit into my analytic judgment what what is the what are these individuals personal circumstances are they enriching themselves I I don't see um obviously Lou's living in an RV and digging his own toilet he's not enriching himself on this topic right so so that is that is certainly something to um consider in in our analytic kind of process and judgment as we as we vet different claims as we look at motivations very important right um so I think you hit the nail on the head it's it's very very important to to keep these personal circumstances in mind and I think it's obsurd to call um these individuals grifters just absurd on on their face they gave up um very well-paying jobs to to speak what they believe is the truth and and um you know there certainly is a lot of circumstantial evidence whether it's um the legislation alone right there's an enormous amount of Circ circumstantial evidence that that they're on to something significant I think one of the things that leapt out at me in the interview that I did with Lou and he's also expanded on this in detail in the book is his account of the Collins Elite that there is in the Pentagon and in the intelligence Community a group of people who are deeply and no criticism of them for this by the way they're entitled to be religious they're deeply Evangelical Christian deeply deeply religious and they perceive the phenomenon whatever it is as demonic and uh Lou tells me in the interview and he does a little bit of this in the book as well about a meeting or a sort of a confrontation in a hallway that he had with a very senior member of the Collins Elite somebody who was very very senior in DIA I think you and I both know who he's talking about and um I've looked online and this person is he's a very deep Evangelical Christian somebody of a vowed Christian faith what do you think about the propriety of somebody in the defense department though letting their religious Faith intruded on one the Public's right to know about something that is according to Lou randoo Chris melon Dave grush Colonel Neil a national security Public Safety threat and what do you think about the um the idea that you know religious beliefs are allowed to intrude into the day-to-day workings of a government agency especially one as crucial as the Pentagon I think it's outrageous Ross pure and simple it's outrageous I think it's it's unconscionable um to have any kind of bias right that's the worst thing from an analytic from a national security perspective any kind of bias That clouds objective thinking objective analysis um is a is a major major source of concern um and you know if what Lou is saying is accurate this is this is pretty extraordinary um and you know I do want to on the topic of religion and Theology and UAP I want to quickly just plug and I'm not an expert I'm the first person to admit when I'm not an expert on something I want to quickly plug um a book by Paul Thigpen a Catholic Theologian um on uh extraterrestrial intelligence in the Catholic church I believe is the title and then um Matt Halstead is another individual um who an academic a a you know a faith-based academic who who's done some both of them have done some pretty remarkable um very deep kind of academic work on on this topic and I think I I hope it's fair for me to to summarize their their conclusions their findings are are um that there there really is there from their perspective and I it's logical to me um that there is no inherent conflict between um what Lou is alleging or or the possibility of of non-human intelligence and and these religions these these religious Traditions that we have um that may seem counterintuitive on its face but I I think they've done it remarkable job of of addressing that so I want to quickly I'll just summarize I think it's outrageous it's unacceptable it's unconscionable for any kind of religious belief I don't care what religion it is or or any belief doesn't even have to be theological um to interfere and be an analytic bias but also there is some some pretty robust academic um literature and work by these by these theologians that um says otherwise that that is very clear so I hope anybody that has that perception of this inherent bias or um this this inherent Clash take some time to actually look at at what these gentlemen have have written and put out one thing I wanted to ask you about Merrick was there were people online I noticed who were questioning whether Lou is really taking that much of a risk and they're running this line that because he's gone through the doser process because he sought approval from the defense office pre-publication secure Review Office Security review office he's not really taking a risk at all and frankly for him this is pretty lame that essentially all he's doing is paring what he's being told by the Pentagon and there's a lot of people and God I think the UFO Community their own worst enemies on this issue frankly where they they basically shaft somebody like Lou coming forward and and insinuate that he's essentially operating with some kind of agenda let's deal with that let's go to the issue do you think lose some kind of plant that is some kind of mole who's pushing some kind of dark double agenda that's pushing some dark nefarious agenda inside the defense department that we're not allowed to know about or do you think he's just genuinely The Whistleblower that certainly I believe he is unless you and I are absurd judges of character and that's possible Ross um no I I do not think I do not think that that is the case I think um I think he is he is coming forward and and making sacrifices because he truly profoundly believes in what he is putting out in the public record um and and again I'm I'm just going to go back to this is all the more reason for this legislation to pass to get to the bottom of this if there's nothing to see here and lose wrong okay fine but we we absolutely must look because as we've said Lou has put his reputation his livelihood his retirement uh on the line for to to speak out publicly on on a a very very stigmatized topic one of the um things that I found especially intriguing and I I know from talking to other people who've been involved in close-up contact with the phenomenon is the way Lou admits that the phenomenons followed him home The Hitchhiker effect and it was fascinating talking to him and Jen there's a lot of other stuff that um we didn't include in the program that they've described that I won't go into here but at the very least what they describe in the book is these orbs these balls of light that appear to be manifesting themselves in the family home in front of the Lou his wife their two beautiful daughters I mean if I was a pedon employee and I knew that whatever it that I'm investigating was following me home literally something anomalous is actually manifesting itself in my home that's I think one of the most extraordinary things that underlines to me the degree of sacrifice that somebody like him is making um what what's your take on the whole hitchhiker effect do you find it plausible yeah that that is a great question Ross and again I I'm gonna have to I think I'm I'm gonna beat a dead horse here but I I think these are extraordinary statements coming from very credible people I can't trust them on on their face because i' I've seen no evidence of that right but when you have multiple individuals largely saying the same thing right that there is something that is following them home hitchhiking home with them um that begs for more investigation I'm not going to take it at face value but I'm not going to I'm certainly not going to discard it at the on the other end of the spectrum right so so this is absolutely it's vital that we get to the bottom of it I think I want to just from a from an analytic perspective um and Ross I'll I'll maybe get get into a little bit of why I am so fascinated by this topic and and the the analytic basis for why I'm even having this conversation with you and that is because I have actually taken the time to read well over 150 raw case files from Project sign Project Blue Book and project Grudge the the um the 1940s and the 1950s those are the U programs that the government had to investigate UAP and for to for any objective analyst to read through those reports and and see the remarkable similarities from individuals hundreds if not thousands of miles apart who had no you know had no possible way of knowing each other's reports and and and seeing the consistency in those reports is remarkable and I will add that one of the most common phenomena that is was reported and I assume still is and if we read between the lines of a lot of what the Pentagon is is released in terms of pilot reports that round spherical objects sometimes multicolored usually red at night or or or metallic during the day and you know this Ross right we've we've covered this that is one of the most commonly reported phenomena um so that aligns with the historical record let me just back up what Lou is reporting aligns with the historical record um it aligns with what we've heard from James latsky who who wrote a book about this I think it was U skinwalkers at the Pentagon um so from an analytic perspective it's fascinating but I need more evidence and this is this is just crying out it's begging for more investigation absolutely can you explain to our audience why would the defense department allow Lou to do any interview I mean essentially if it's true that there is this Legacy retrieval program crash reverse engineering program why allow him to do any kind of interview at all why why not just say look you're a defense department employee we're going to shut you up I mean in my in my jurisdiction in Australia the defense department hates the media they love talking to the media and you know I'm always amazed that the Pentagon actually has a a publication Security review office that actually allows its employees to get their potential media commentary or published commentary published in Australia they I think they'd rather put you up against a wall and shoot you so why why is there a dooper process why why is there even a process like this at all and should we make a conclusion from the doser process that there is a willingness inside the Pentagon or at least some part of the the Pentagon to be open and candid about this issue why the opportunity to speak at all yeah and and I this is this is an area where I'm not an expert in but I suspect it is a constitutionally protected First Amendment right for a former employee to speak about X however if why is classified they can only restrain or constrain an um an ability the the former employees ability to speak about the classified portion the the portion that was covered by an IND for example so so there's that inherent Free Speech right to write a book to go make a movie script up to a point and that point that line is is classified information I suspect I I'm sure somebody on the internet will correct me if I'm wrong but um I believe that that is at core what what the dynamic that is at play here so really want to get your final sort of encapsulation of where the alzando book and interview takes is marrick I mean has it pushed the needle at all is it really advancing public awareness or public initiative at all and more importantly is it going to make a jot of difference in the Pentagon or in the Congress Ross I I am optimistic um that lose book will in fact move the needle um that being said that is a testable hypothesis right we can have this conversation in a year in two years and we can check to see how much if at all lose book and your your interview move the needle um that being said I am from my perspective I am only seeing more individuals more credible people coming forward and and seeing um a slow let's call it an in increase let's you know it's it's it's a chain reaction right of individuals at at one point it was just Chris melon and Lou then Dave grush came out then Carl Nell came out then James laty came out right so you see this ever expanding and and this is the word that Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer used in his press release a vast web of individuals that's the direct quote they Congress uncovered a quote vast web of individuals and that formed the basis for this remarkable legislation so um I'm optimistic that the book your interview our coverage our our combined coverage will get the right people who are interested in this to come forward and hopefully catalyze some more transparency some more openness or more action more congressional action with teeth um in the coming months and and years if the legislation doesn't pass at the end of this year if The Gatekeepers if the uh the siant to the defense Aerospace industry are allowed to get their way on the hill towards the end of this year as the defense authorization act comes through the house if it doesn't pass isn't there a risk that we could go back to another 30 or 40 Years of continued embargo on truth about the UAP issue I mean this could all go back into a box so very easily couldn't it R something i' I thought about it and it's uh the me physically seeing history repeat itself I am seeing Echoes of the post Robertson panel defense department in the the current UFO analysis office right it's there's nothing to see here it's all nonsense um so yes could we go back to that Dynamic absolutely we could um however and maybe I'm just being optimistic but I just just seeing more and more credible individuals coming forward publicly despite the stigma despite the the risk to their reputation and their livelihoods I am cautiously optimistic um that the genie is out of the uh out of the bottle but Ross maybe we can make a deal right here right now that we have this conversation in a year or two and see if I was right or if I was wrong now Merrick I want to pay credit to the work that you did in picking Dr Shan Kirk Patrick up on some of of the things that he said in some of his public commentary he gave us a very late response uh to our story and he said he told news Nation quote at no time did I provide false information to Congress in fact my team provided actual evidence something that all of the other claimants have failed to do what's your response to that Dr Shan Kirkpatrick comment I am not privy to exactly what he and arrow provided to Congress however I have heard from sources on the Senate side that that is inaccurate and that he did not share what was presented to him by whistleblowers with Congress um so there is a major disconnect there um frankly I don't trust Kurt Patrick I'll be very honest with you I gave him the benefit of the doubt I spoke to him in person in November of 2023 I spoke to him in a lengthy interview I want to be very clear I was I'm very grateful for his time but um based on what he told me about the most recognizable UFO UAP footage of all time you'd think that the guy whose job was UFO analysis could maybe know some basic facts about the most extraordinary UFO or or most recognizable UFO footage of all time and he either lied to me to my face twice or he's astoundingly misinformed and ill-informed about um the key UFO incidents that we all know about the Nimitz incident and the 2015 uh the gimbal incident and the go fast videos and all that so um I have very you there for a moment because I'm really interested in getting getting you the detail on this what were the um the possible untruths or inaccuracies in what he told you yeah sure it's it's um pretty astounding so the gimbal video I think most Americans have seen it they might not know it but they've seen it um and he told me that that was likely um a balloon uh with a the the that bizarre infrared reflection or or infrared signatures he told me is is a reflection from the Sun okay Dr Kirkpatrick that incident occurred at night so we can rule out the sun right you can hear the aviators on the um cockpit audio say that the object and in the video and the other objects that are accompanying it are going against 120 knot winds that's C category 4 hurricane Force wins I don't know Ross I don't know any balloons that go against category 4 hurricane Force wins and if you do um boy that's that's a that's a heck of a child's you know birthday balloon or toy so um that's one uh pretty astounding if you don't know the basic facts about the most recognizable UFO video of all time I don't know what to tell you uh what where did our taxpayer dollars go that's astounding um so that's the is the issue is that we we don't appear to be getting from the pentagon's UFO investigation office the all domain anomaly resolution office we don't appear to be getting a scrupulously objective reasoned well argued explication for why we shouldn't be taking these seriously as anomalous objects and I I'll quickly the goast video he endorsed NASA's analysis after I NASA made just an astounding catastrophic mathmatical error in its analysis I have some help I've got actual an actual scientist helping me on the you know working we're working through this stuff and after I pointed out NASA's error on that particular video um Kirk Patrick said oh I haven't looked at NASA's analysis are you are you joking me I mean you you literally just endorsed it gave it a ringing endorsement few months ago and then you said you haven't looked at it I mean this is just this is just astounding incompetence or it's a disinformation operation it's it's one or the other there's no there's no there's no gray area here this is this is binary it's zero one and and look I you know he could have misspoken uh fine I'll give him the better of the doubt the first time he did it twice and now let's let's be analytic about this um aros's historical report was from an analytic perspective atrocious it was it was astoundingly it was awful it was one of the worst pieces of of it was a dog brick what it is dog ate my homework I wouldn't even call it a report and then and then you had this absurd explanation for some of your viewers might remember um during the the the big UFO hearing Matt Gates congressman from Florida um described a UAP incident that occurred that Air Force personnel felt obligated to report to his office there's a reason they went to his office and not up the chain of command I suspect um a pretty remarkable incident and arrow put out this they called it a case resolution report that said it was some some kind of high-end lighting balloon that that even Mick West didn't buy this that Mick West as some of your viewers know is is perhaps the most notable um UAP skeptic in the world he didn't buy this explanation of their their first you know their their primary culprit for this incident and any number of me you get into the radar issues we don't need a Bel or get into the nuances but the point is is Kirk Patrick's comments to me come in a in a much broader Patchwork quiltwork of nonsense and absurdity that is coming out of Arrow which looks exactly like what we saw with blue book following the the Robertson panel in 1953 well Marik Von renin Camp let's just hope that in 30 years time you and I aren't still tilting at windmills looking for Pentagon truth and honesty on the subject of uaps I sincerely hope we get an answer any kind of answer sometime soon Merrick Von renin Camp thank you so much for joining reality check and helping me analyze the Lou elisondo interview and imminent book look forward to talking to you again soon Ross thanks so much for having [Music] me thanks for watching go to joinin in.com to find newsnation on your television provider and please don't forget to click that red subscribe button to ensure you get more of news nation's unbiased and fact-driven news coverage