An Interview with Ross Coulthart: UAP, David Grusch, and "Ontological Shock"

Transcript

Okay so uh yeah what do I begin so a lot has happened on the UAP topic you're an investigative journalist you uh have done a lot of uh work in the mainstream media and now you find yourself in the UAP world and I'm just going to assume that everybody knows your work if they don't they can go and look you up but I just have some specific questions related to the the David grush am I saying his name right groucher grush it's actually grush okay um yeah some specific questions about the David gresh story which is just uh you know I consider myself someone who's pretty open to all sorts of things but as soon as David came out and started talking in the story that you broke I began to think oh my goodness this is this stuff real like I even had had thoughts because it was oh I I agree with you I think there's an ontological shock for a lot of people particularly the mainstream media and opinion leaders because a lot of what grush is saying is so shocking I mean it's quite extraordinary I mean as I keep on saying this is a guy who until literally a few weeks ago was involved in helping prepare the presidential Daily Briefing intelligence data from the National geospatial Intelligence Agency and the nro and and he personally hand delivered these incredibly sensitive secrets to The West Wing of the White House so this is somebody who indisputably still holds a very high level security classification and um I find his assertions confronting the difficulty that a lot of people have in accepting what he says would probably be softened if they knew what I know which is a journalist like me and I you know it all sounds very pompous I know but journalists Don't just run stories you know you don't just put a guy like Dave grush up on national television and not investigate one his Bona fides or indeed you Endeavor to try to verify what he alleges and as Leslie Kane my colleague and Ralph Blumenthal to highly reputable journalists did in their piece which was eventually published on the debrief they quoted in the body of their article a number of sources particularly Christopher Mellon and Colonel Carl Nell and another guy who goes under a pseudonym who works out of the national Aerospace Air and Space Intelligence Center nasic um I think they've forgotten the name they used for them but um anyway the long and the short of it is there's multiple corroboration for grush in both the written and in my context the broadcast story and um journalists and as much as this irritates people from the UAP research field journalists work on trust with people you know it's kind of like a an intelligence Handler handling an informant in another country you know that sometimes those people will get into terrible trouble if their identity is revealed and as a journalist I'm under an enormous strong ethical obligation as a priest by the way is to it a parishioner who confides something in that priest um I have an enormous ethical obligation to my sources to protect their identity and to ensure that I don't compromise them in any way and so uh yeah I've I've independently verified material that grush has told me with my own personal sources in inside the U.S defense and intelligence Community AV has uh Leslie Klein and Ralph Blumenthal so yeah I mean I I think people need to understand that because there's a fundamental misunderstanding about how journalists operate we don't just put a an interview up on air and then forget about it we we verify aspects before we even allow that interview to be broadcast right right yeah and people in my field too like I mean I have a PhD and when you write your dissertation and you bring it before a committee it's going to be you have to make sure that you've done your homework you're that you've uh yes proper sources uh this is in the world of academics you can't get away with just putting anything out there right yeah and I mean in the same way that when you're doing your PhD dissertation you're cross-examined by your colleagues and your peers right it's very like that in a newsroom I mean believe me journalists are harder on each other than most people in society you know we're extremely doubtful and skeptical about things that our colleagues are working on and we always test and investigate allegations um I you know my personal opinion at the moment is that the ontological shock of what Mr grush is alleging is so great to most people particularly in the mainstream media that I don't expect and I never really did expect that his allegations alone would give sufficient traction to compel the US government into any kind of an admission about what it actually knows what I find hilarious is that we're indisputably in a situation where the US government clearly knows a lot more than it's letting on and we're in this weird into regnum where we're waiting to find out whether the weight of public opinion and media commentary will be such that the government will be forced into some kind of kind of an admission I don't think that will come from Mr grush I I think Mr grush is a is a beginning but I think what you're going to see is particularly from the Congress a slow unfolding of witness evidence and further Revelations I mean I I speak all the time to people in the Congress who are determined to get to the bottom of this and they are very strongly of the view based on the witnesses that they have cross-examined in private secure compartmented information facilities Skiffs there very strongly at the view that clearly there is a body of people who are alleging to the Congress that there is and has long been a secret non-human technology crash retrieval program on which reverse engineering is being performed by the US government now I'm not in a position to be able to categorically State because I haven't seen these objects you know I've got a I'm a journalist I'm only as good as the sources I speak to but surely to God forgive my bless for me for a moment but surely to God we're in a position where the circumstantial evidence is such that it ought properly to be the subject of shrewd investigation by the media and also by congressional oversight committees in a public way and um I'm a little skeptical I must confess you've got me this morning a little bit despondent because I I'm beginning to think that the intractable obduracy of those in the intelligence establishment is such that a decision has been made just to sit on this for as long as possible and and to hold out that you know they're not going to buckle under either Congressional or media pressure and and hope that they can just push through because um and look this is not me saying this this is my sources my sources are actually saying that um the the reluctance to be candid about what they know about what Mr grush alleges stems from the fact that we are on the precipice of a confrontation with China and there's also the risk of a nuclear conflagration with Russia and in that context I can understand why people in the U.S defense and intelligence community might take the view that now is not the time you know David grush's uh claims are incredible but his credentials and credibility I mean that's impeccable I mean it's it is two weeks you and I are talking over two weeks now it's like 16 days since the story aired yeah and was published and aside from a weird bunch of guys who claim to be able to do behavioral psychological analysis of facial features there's been nobody that's laid as far as I can see any discernably credible criticism on Mr grash and one of the things those people doing the behavioral analysis don't know about Mr grush or perhaps they haven't taken it into consideration is that he's quite autistic you know he's somebody who doesn't understand what people might call normal human social and emotional cues he's a delightful Man David he's extraordinarily intelligent and and he's a very good person to talk to but yeah he can he can be a bit weird sometimes in the way he responds to questions and I'm just used to that because I know people who are autistic and I think people need to take that in account when they talk to him but here we are it's like um you and I are speaking over two weeks after the first broadcast and um nobody I know has given any discernible credible analysis to draw any reason to doubt Mr grush's claims other than oh my goodness it's a shock it can't possibly be true and that's not an argument you know the irony is Mr grush has actually gone on oath and people missed this he's gone on oath to the Inspector General of the intelligence Community to the Inspector General of the defense department and also to the hipsy the house permanent Select Committee for intelligence and also to the Senate Select Committee for intelligence and if he's lying he's going to jail that's the point um why would a very senior intelligence officer risk his reputation and his career and go off the record with both Leslie Kane Ralph Blumenthal and I with these allegations and also go on the record with the Congress under oath and the inspectors General under oath and make it all up I mean seriously yeah you're in want for emotions at this point yeah yeah yeah and and I guess what I'm a little sad about is I've been a journalist for 35 37 years and I started out training as an attorney and one of the things you learn as an attorney is how to weigh evidence and how to assess evidence and how to question Witnesses and I've used that throughout my career in journalism to great success and good reputation but the the thing that shocks me is the willful blindness of much of the American mainstream media which it isn't just actively ignoring Mr grush it's like it's running and hiding you know you had this absurd situation where um forgive me if I've got her name wrong Karin Jean-Pierre the um White House Press Secretary lovely woman but she she was asked the direct question are we alone uh you know it's the US government hiding evidence relating to aliens and rather than answer the question the White House Press Corps supposedly the elite of the press in America let her put it through to the keeper and say oh I'd rather you ask the defense department about that that was a direct evasion yeah and at what point do I I just think at the moment we're in a really interesting time of what this all says about the capacity for critical analysis in American debate any longer it's like you know you tell me I mean am I being unfair I mean I I just think I I think there's a circumstantial level of evidence evidence that Russia's got to based on the fact that he's backed by corroborative Witnesses based on the fact that he's got this enormous reputation and credibility and based on the fact that in the two weeks since we broadcast the Pentagon has not said a peep about David grush have you noticed and the interesting thing is you've got this willful Blindness by the powerful in the media who could resolve this once and for all you know you could get the New York Times to say in an editorial these issues need to be resolved because let me just explain this to you back in the last Gulf War we were being told that we needed to invade Iraq based on the evidence of an anonymous intelligence Source whom we were all being told about as investigative news media was an intelligent source that was vouched for by my country's intelligence services and by your CIA in particular and and I've had a long interest in this because I've done stories about it there was a guy called curveball that was his code name and he was actually a a source that had been provided by Ahmed chalabi who I remember meeting from the Iraqi National Congress and curveball was a artist he was a liar he confabulated allegations that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction that he was building nuclear weapons and chemical weapons and it was on the basis largely of curveball's evidence that trillions of dollars hundreds of thousands of lives were lost in a war in Iraq and then subsequently in the so-called war on terror in the war in Afghanistan both Wars that were driven by flawed intelligence and in each case what we were told in the mainstream media credulously accepted it was that we can't let you talk to this witness but he's a really good witness and we trust him and for that reason we need to go to war and spend trillions of Euro dollars fighting this war against Terror and you've just got to trust us and you know what the New York Times The Washington Post the LA Times the Boston Globe the Chicago sometimes all of the great newspapers of America did the major networks NBC ABC CBS PBS ain't CNN they all lamely trotted along and accepted the assurances of these Assurance of these intelligence officials that this hearsay intelligence Source was somebody that we could trust now put that in the context of David grush David grush is on the record prepared to stick his neck out under oath and testify on a stack of Bibles as he has done that what he's telling is the truth he's exposed himself to the risk of indefinite time in jail if he's lied why is there this double standard in the U.S media why are they prepared to credulously accept the assertions of their intelligence officials who they now know lied to them about curveball because there were concerns in the CIA at the time that curveball was not a reliable witness that chalabi and the Inc were essentially there to to push an agenda and essentially that agenda has come to pass we now have essentially a proxy state of Iran Iraq is essentially being run by the Iranians as a result of the manipulation of U.S foreign policy by the Iranians I mean it's quite extraordinary and now we've got a situation where are more reliable intense intelligence Source from within the U.S intelligence Community is coming forward and testifying and not only are the media ignoring him you've got people like Ross dartet from the um New York Times New York Times writing these really badly ill-informed articles that essentially undermine Russia's credibility for no solid reason at all and I was really heartened to see Ezra Klein the podcaster for the New York Times a very very senior and highly reputable op-ed columnist for the Times taking Leslie Kane seriously and actually doing a very good interview with her in the column that he's written and also in the um podcast that they've conducted so you have this weird situation where um you've got Michael schellenberger another reputable journalist saying that he's speaking to people directly in the program who say that what Mr grush is saying is true you've got Colonel Cornell who backs Leslie Kane's story um and Ralph blumenthals you've got um the nasic witness you've got um Christopher melon an add to that you've got people like Dr Eric Davis you've got um Dr Hal putoff there's a preponderance of people who over the past five years since the original 2017 New York Times allegations have come forward and said what I know to many people in America as it can to the rest of the world is extraordinarily confronting one there are aliens there is a non-human intelligence two we're retrieving their technology and as David Rush has said we have bodies and more importantly we have agreements yeah that that's what got me too I'm like this is stuff out of Science Fiction well you you say that but but I mean essentially that's an ontological response that's a shock response that is a shock response yeah yeah yeah and I had the same response when two years ago well before I met David grush I was talking to people yeah inside the US government who were telling me exactly the same thing and I know Leslie Keynes had the same experience as well and one of the difficulties being an investigative journalist on this is you can't reveal all your sources sure and and it's interesting because what I think is happening at the moment is I think The Gatekeepers have said you know what if we just keep this out of mainstream media I reckon we can dampen this done you know let cool Tartan Kane and blumen Tails squawk as much as they like on social media but really I think if we can keep it out of the mainstream media we can stop Congress getting momentum and then we can kill the issue dead and if that's their view oh my goodness me it's it's sadly sadly completely misconceived because my friend there are people in the program who are deeply deeply frustrated and they are giving evidence and they are going to come forward uh and they're bitterly angry that technological advancements that ought properly to be the knowledge of the human race let alone the American military industrial complex they're being withheld from the knowledge of the public if what Mr grush is saying is true if there are craft that have been recovered that are displaying propulsive abilities and energy abilities that are far beyond human kin it means there are technologies that can be developed and advanced for the benefit of all humankind and I know that sounds like a glib assertion but it's it's something that I'm told by multiple sources is the case yeah now there's a guy called Leonard Stringfield back in the 70s who was 50 years ago doing exactly what I'm doing now really and the American national security establishment came out publicly and poo pooed the suggestion that there are retrieved alien spacecraft that there are retrieved alien bodies and people have forgotten that Mr Stringfield also had sources on the record he had documents he had verification credible information to suggest that what he was saying was the case and the um the great tragedy is that for the last 50 years people have labored I'm told inside a legacy crash retrieval reverse engineering program and been largely unsuccessful because good science is about sharing ideas good good science is about questioning interrogating other sources who can actually help you understand an issue and unfortunately because of the compartmented security on this whole issue I've spoken to people who who've told me that they've worked on objects and they've not known the Providence of those objects but that they are clearly not of human hands and they're not allowed they're not allowed to talk with anyone outside the room that they're working in about what it is they're working on and that militates against good science I mean it just undermines the capacity of scientists to do their job and this is the frustration and I think ultimately sadly there's a kind of a choice here at the moment I think for the us because what's what also is happening is I know because I'm talking to them there are other five eyes Nations that are deeply frustrated with the policy and the strategy that the US is applying on this they're saying trusters we're the great United States we know what's best for all of you guys sure there may be Technologies here that can be recovered but let us do that work go away leave us alone and we'll keep you in ignorance and that's largely what's happening because Australians and Brits and Canadians have all participated in Crash retrievals they've all participated in assisting the US in concealing this technology and and but you say crash retrievals you mean crap I'm talking about I'm talking about non-human technology I'm talking about not necessarily crashed but retrieved alien for whatever word non-human spacecraft yeah that's you know I'm that type of person I'm open to anything I I just I like the truth and I pursue that I want to pursue the truth no matter where but also just just for the benefit Matthew of the area of investigation that you're looking in which is the theological yeah there are issues that I'm aware of that I talk to people about in the your government that bear directly on religions and and and and our whole understanding of ourselves as humans about our Origins their Origins questions yeah they come up it's fundamentally important and one of the things that believe it or not I I find shocking but it's true is there really is a Cadre especially in the U.S Air Force of extremely evangelic Christians who take the view that what they know know from their secret intelligence to be the case is so heretical and so antithetical to their Notions of their Christian beliefs that they've just suppressed it and and uh I mean it's it's shocking and I I think that um one of ironically one of the religious organizations that's been the most Progressive about this I I should be clear I'm not deeply religious at all I mean I'm spiritual I suppose in the sense that I do believe that um the human soul transcends our physical form but um um I think the Catholic church has been extraordinarily Progressive in in stating we are all God's children whether we are human or non-human and that they have prepared the Catholic faith for the probability because of the Drake equation that um you are not alone in this universe and that at some stage there will have to be a Reckoning with Catholicism the religious beliefs of people who adhere to the Catholic faith and um and a belief in the fact that there is a non-human intelligence that shares this universe with us and I don't think the tour at all antithetical and in fact if you think about God if you think about the very notion of God as is described in the Bible and in theological teaching God does appear to be a and non-human intelligence I was going to say Christians have had these categories for a very long time everybody every Christian I know believes in some form of non-human intelligence and not just God and you know but there are all sorts of different it just if you take the Bible all sorts of different intermediary beings between humans and the Divine you know so so yeah I don't know I don't think that Christians that's what I and that's why though because I I'll tell you that the biggest excuse that I get from people and I I mean the hilarious thing to me as a journalist is as often happens in journalism people in positions of power often take you into their confidence knowing that you can't break the secrecy of that confidence by revealing who they are and I can't but I've talked to people who are probably reasonably well-known public figures in the United States who've said to me candidly yes there is a non-human Intelligence on this planet um but one of the reasons we're not revealing it is because we're worried about what it would do to institutional religions we're worried about the ontological shock to humanity and whether religious people can cope with that conferencing idea that there is an nhi a presence that shares this world with us and frankly I don't know I mean I think it's time for us all to grow up I think we're more mature than they give us credit for well if it's true I want to know it if it's true I yeah and I I don't think the Christian faith at all is undermined by the existence of E.T or and it you know whether they live on another planet or they're much more closely I mean I I was privileged I'd I've got friends who are in the um uh you know the ministering in different religions and um uh I've spoken to a rabbi and I've spoken to a minister of religion and I've even spoken to a bishop and all of them privately they're slightly more cautious about what they prepare to say publicly but all of them would conceive privately that yes they've long acknowledged that there's a very strong likelihood that there are other intelligences in this universe that we have to adapt our understanding of religion to and it's not incompatible with religious Faith sure and in fact the more I get into the UAP issue the more spiritual I won't say religious but the more spiritual I become because so many of the people that I speak to talk to me about the importance of human consciousness in terms of beginning to understand the phenomenon which isn't just a flying object's phenomenon you know I I suspect the the phenomenon the broader description of the phenomenon as we understand it may explain a lot of what has passed for Supernatural and paranormal in the last 10 000 years I mean I've been privileged to travel way out into the Outback and talk to remote Aboriginal communities that are the closest that you could get to the original nomadic Australians who who essentially largely stopped being nomadic probably 50 60 years ago but these people have deep spiritual beliefs about the sky people about being visited by non-human entities from the sky and it's part of their dream time it's part of their their their uh their religious spiritual stories that go back tens of thousands of years and if you go around to every culture around the world I find it intriguing that there are these spiritual ideas that transcend regions transcend countries and transcend nationalism it's an idea that human beings are connected in some way with a higher intelligence and and that there's a Consciousness interface and I I find it fascinating because if anything the knowledge that I have most of which I can't talk about makes me more spiritual not less yeah yeah there's definitely if anybody studies the UAP literature at all that they know that there's definitely almost like a precognitive or element to the whole thing there's there's definitely a link consciousness-wise synchronicities that people talk about you know um hey real quick I know I only have you for a little bit longer here um I want to go back to David's stuff um just for clarification here did he did he get blowback for talking to Congress because he talked about the blowback did he get blowback for talking to Congress or did he start talking to Congress because he got blowback or both um well I'll take you through the sequence of events okay basically as a member of the UAP task force working for the office of the under secretary for defense intelligence and security austie um he worked with people like um Jay Stratton and um others on the UAP task force and because he had from his previous roles a very high compartmented top secret SCI clearance he was able to get in to talk to people who otherwise would not have been allowed to talk to him because of their clearances and they told him things about what's euphemistically called the program and the program is essentially a reference to the Legacy crash retrieval UFO UAP reverse engineering program and I've spoken myself independently of grush to multiple people who've told me about their work in the program and I'm reasonably confident it exists I can never be a hundred percent confident because obviously a journalist is only ever as good as their sources and there's always the risk of some massive disinformation program however unlucky that is but um as part of his work he was given certain code names and um certain locations and he started pushing for access to those code names and those locations and it was at that point that the reprisals and the harassment began and I can't talk out of Faith to David and his lawyers I can't go into the detail of what the nature of the reprisal and the harassment was but it was not nice it was very unpleasant and as a result of Consulting with his imminent attorney Chuck McCullough who himself is a Former Intelligence Community Inspector General um Chuck McCullough made a formal referral to the existing Inspector General of the intelligence community and also by the way to the IG for the defense department and those complaints are still ongoing and they set out Mr grush's complaints about reprisal and harassment for basically doing his job you know he was doing his job as he was instructed to do it was completely within compliance of the law and essentially bad things started happening to him because of that and as part of the Inspector General not as lawyers as part of the Inspector General of the intelligence communities investigation into Mr gracious claims the Inspector General made his own inquiries and called his own Witnesses including some of the people that Mr grush had told him about and those people independently under oath came forward from within the Legacy UAP crash retrieval program and this point has been missed Matthew this is an opportunity for you to make a point here there is independent corroboration to the Inspector General by multiple Witnesses under oath of what Mr grush alleged not just about reprisal but of the existence of the UAP crash retrieval program it was on that basis that the inspector general for the intelligence Community then made the referral to the Congressional oversight committees the hipsy and the ssci basically saying this is credible and Urgent and it was on the basis of that referral that the Committees then called Mr grush to appear and he was um uh interrogated under oath by Congressional staffers from both committees I think there was a greater representation of actual political Representatives on the hipsy but there were no Senators present at the ssci hearing which sounds Sinister but it's quite normal when a whistleblower comes forward um and essentially There Is Ours many many hours probably about 11 hours of testimony that has been given by Mr grush under oath to the house intelligence committees and I have to be vague here but um I know that those investigations are still ongoing and I know that there is a resolve by individuals on those committees the Senators and the representatives to get to the bottom of this matter and to see it properly investigated um I still think though there's a possibility that their determinations may all be made in secret because there's a possibility that it may all just be quietly uh validated but that in the National Security interest the U.S determines that there's no good reason to bring it out in the open at the moment I'm not saying necessarily that it will result in public hearings in the Congress I know that's the wish of Representative Tim birchard who's the Tennessee representative and I wish him well in his efforts but dare I say as a journalist I can kind of understand the implications for why the United States might want to keep certain aspects of this Secret I'm not being an apologist for them but for example if what Mr grush is saying is true and they've recovered craft invariably that means that they have recovered things that offer magnificent new propulsion systems possibly anti-gravity we know from the study of the El cubio Drive which is the postulated way in which a space-time bubble can be put in front of a spacecraft and it might be able to explain how craft can move vast differences distances through space and time almost instantaneously and address the concerns raised by some Skeptics that you know it's impossible for any living entity to move across the universe as fast as people say it is it would probably be um explanatory for a lot of that as well and as well as that there's the Energy System capabilities I can understand why from talking to people in the National Security and intelligence establishment in your country there might be aspects of that that they might want to keep highly confidential and I can respect that because if this is true uh what we're talking about is weaponry and what we're talking about is awesome technology that could be misused for evil purposes and I fully understand that but what I don't understand is why there is such an intransigence to acknowledging what I'm very sure is the case which is that there is a non-human intelligence engaging with this planet and will there will there be more people coming forward in the way that David Rush has I think so but it really a lot of it depends on what their perception is of how Mr grush has treated and so I think also to be honest with you the American public and the world have to make it clear they want this I mean there's such a hilariously dull response from mainstream media that people look to to take the leadership on this issue you know it's almost willful and I you know having been a um a journalist that reports on National Security stuff myself and seeing how it works one of the ways that intelligence services and defense departments control journalists is by limiting their access to interesting stories and you know for example today um The New York Times has got an extremely interesting story about how the FSB the successor to the KGB was involved in an alleged attempt to murder a Russian Defector who was living in Florida now that's a direct drop from the intelligent Services you know that's the way it works you know if you're a national security correspondent for a major newspaper you don't get that drop that leak that corroboration of what you need to tell the story unless you keep your nose clean and if you go telling stories that upset the National Security establishment about say for example UFO UAP crash retrieval programs you don't get invited to the the quiet little briefing that takes place in you know room one two three in the Pentagon that's the way it works and so there's a very tight control on National Security and intelligence reporters in the United States from all of the major networks and all of the major newspapers and I can understand why they're reticent about engaging with the grush allegations because no doubt behind the scenes there's a lot of poison being put down for Mr grush but what is telling is that to date you'd think if the Pentagon had any dirt on Mr grush if they had anything that they could do to lay a glove on him you'd think they would have laid it on him by now and they hadn't and they can't that's why and just to make sure I understand the IG complaint that he filed and he signed under you know threat of perjury essentially um just so that I understand that it is is the is is his allegation is part of that complaint the allegation that the Pentagon are elements within the Pentagon are hiding information from Congress is that part of what the IG would have found credible and urgent yeah basically what we're talking about is it's not just a harassment claim that he's like it's the illegal withholding okay of programs that have not been properly disclosed gotcha if if you remember a lot of people get worried about the complexity of the legislation but there was a a piece of legislation that was passed in late 2022 called the ndaa the National Defense authorization act and there's a I think it's section 1687 which is the Clause the Clauses that deal with uaps and they specify this is since David Rush gave his evidence they have mandated the Congress has mandated under public pressure it has passed laws requiring all government departments particularly the spy agencies and the defense department to come forward with any evidence of what they know about uaps and they've even done things like require that all non-disclosure agreements relating to uaps be disclosed and it's very clever legislation and you know why it's so clever because David grush helped write it so when I I wrote an article on that piece of legislation I read all the UAP stuff in that that particular law the ndaa and one of the things I said in my article was that um that con the Assumption because it uses language like uh we want to know about uh reverse engineering crash material retrievals and that sort of Not Crash but material retrievals and all of that assumes that that it's that there's a high plausibility that there's actually a program that does that otherwise Congress wouldn't have done it into law this is not playing games I can see that yeah why can't opinion leaders and and and media commentators see that because why would the Congress be mandating the investigations into alien spacecraft being concealed inside the US government or in private Aerospace unless they think there's something there and my question was what evidence have they seen to Warrant such language and to make such language intelligible and and the answer to that seems to be David grush and others is that is that oh it's not just no it's not just David Crush well no the other people other people too yeah but no they're not incredible evidence as you say yeah there are multiple other witnesses that have given evidence to the Senate and the house and and what foreign what you need to understand Matthew and what your listeners and viewers need to understand is we are we are dealing with a dilemma for the politicians in your Congress they don't want to do or say anything publicly that undermines your nation's dominance in National Security and the safety of the American people nobody wants to be accused of undermining that and at the moment there's an incredibly vigorous Lobby from the defense department who's saying arguing that even disclosing the existence of a non-human Intelligence on this planet would lead to a slippery slope that what it would do is lead to the inevitable forced disclosure of Crash retrieval programs that ought properly not to be disclosed in detail because the technologies that are represented by those programs are important to U.S national security I don't accept that I don't accept that disclosing to the world the existence of non-human intelligence necessarily requires the revelation of how these Technologies work what they are exactly and to give you a good analogy the best analogy of this is the US has long admitted that it's got nuclear weapons that it's got hydrogen bombs and atom bombs you and I don't need to know and we should never know how to make those weapons those Dreadful weapons I recognize that there are things as a journalist that I ought properly not to know I don't want top secret SCI clearanced material I don't want to be leaked information that is highly sensitive such as for example what Julian Assange leaked recklessly I believe um uh I I do think that journalists have to weigh up and and measure National Security imperatives in my country Australia is a close and friendly Ally with America we're part of the five eyes Alliance and at the moment I have friends who are in the military forces in Australia and God help them I don't want them going into a war with China if that happens without the best possible capability of being able to defend themselves so I can understand the priorities and the imperatives of people at the highest levels of your government and mine but what I do not understand is why the solution to a fundamental mystery whether or not we're alone in this universe can't at least be acknowledged because it's staring Us in the face that what we're being told is probably untrue I put it on my Twitter feed recently John Ratcliffe back in January I hadn't seen it until just yesterday former Director of National Intelligence was asked directly on a Fox News Bulletin are we alone are there aliens and he refused to answer the question why would it be so hard if you were the former Director of National Intelligence to answer that question why couldn't he just say look I've got no evidence to suggest that there are why could he not answer the question well frankly I know I know for a fact that the reason he can't answer the question is because there are aliens and I know that there are going to be Revelations coming out over the next few months which will result that once and for all and one of the things we were just talking about and I want to make this point to be clear sure was there is also going to be I think more definitive steps by Congress that make it very very clear that Congress believes there are aliens and that there are non-human intelligences and that Congress believes that there are materials being held particularly in private Aerospace that ought properly to be revealed to the attention of the Congress I think that within possibly as little as a few days we'll know more about that in a few days from now from art of talking oh interesting Okay so oh my goodness you you see you say something and like there's a million questions that I that I want to follow up with but that I I'll I won't do that um yeah but I mean I'd certainly love to read anything that you've um written before and I'm happy to have another dialogue with you at some stage but just at the moment I'm really sorry in the space it looked to give you an idea I cleared my email before I came to speak to you and I've now got 711 new messages oh my goodness it is insane I mean I I went on a show called Russell Brand last night yeah and um they have 12 million viewers apparently and like just about every one of them is but has approached me so yeah yeah yeah I'm just overwhelmed at the moment and I'm a freelancer to get a journalist I'm not being fun to do this and so for those people out there the debunkers who falsely assert that I'm about making money out of this I am most assuredly not making money out of this I'm doing this because I passionately believe it's an important story and um I I think it all properly to be revealed to the world yeah yeah well you deserve a beer go grab a beer and uh uh yeah I appreciate what you're doing it's a fascinating topic and it's one that I'm trying to wrap my head around uh for sure but I appreciate your work yeah you're uh thank you very much Matthew and good luck with your uh your writing I'd love to see anything you've written about it