Cold Fusion, LENR & Infinite Energy | George Egely

Transcript

I'm Tim Ventura and we're joined today by Dr. George Egley, a mechanical engineer and independent researcher known for his work on energy science on topics ranging from low energy nuclear reactions and dusty plasmas to bioenergy measurement. He earned his mers in mechanical engineering from the technical university of Budapest in 1974 and a PhD in heat and energy transport in 1982. Early in his career, he researched nuclear plant thermal hydraulics at the Hungarian Academy of Sciences Nuclear Energy Research Lab and spent 1981 and 82 as a visiting researcher at Brook Haven National Laboratory. In 1993, Dr.

Egley founded Egley Research and Development where he developed the Egy Wheel vitality meter as part of his longrunning foray into biopysics. More recently, his work has focused on low energy nuclear reactions and direct electrical output from plasma devices, which he's published as a multi-part series in Infinite Energy magazine and presented at the International Conference on Cold Fusion. He also holds patent filings on an apparatus and methods for generating condensed plasmoids recently published in 2025. Dr. Egley currently serves as the editor of Infinite Energy, the magazine of new energy technology, a bimonthly publication focused on theory and experimental research in alternative energy topics, including cold fusion, 0 point energy, and more, which are the focus of our discussion today.

So, George, welcome. It is truly a pleasure and a great honor to have you with me, sir. >> Yes. Uh just one more uh by sentence that I'm a distant relative of Edward Teller who is the father of the US uh age bomb. >> Okay, that is so so fitting.

Well, Cold Fusion is a distant relative of the work that he pioneered. So right there. >> Yes. and he was quite tolerant and and interested in in cold fusion which in my dictionary is actually catalytic fusion. >> Well, so I have to recuse myself for being very ignorant going into this.

Um a friend of mine said you should contact George Egley for you know the the Egly wheel, right? And so I started on kind of my learning path there. When I reached out to you, then I learned that you are the editor of Infinite Energy magazine. I didn't even realize that was being published still. And so I absolutely wanted to start with that. I want to promote Infinite Energy magazine.

Um I was a friend of the magazine's original founder, Dr. Eugene Malo, and I had been convinced that it ceased publication after his untimely death in 2004. But I was mistaken. It's still in publication. You are the editor.

So, I want to start by asking about your work with the magazine and some of the latest news that people should be reading about in it. >> Yes, Tim. Unfortunately, you arrived uh to the funeral because Infinite Energy collapsed some two months ago and even the website is no longer available as far as I know. But you are right until this time Infinite Energy magazine was published uh by monthly. So every second month the new issue.

It was a a very valuable more or less uh uh free from the restraints of of usual censorship which you meet uh everywhere in science. When somebody wants to step to step beyond the recognized frontiers, >> it is always it is always punishable by death. I mean it's a professional suicide if you venture uh over the the usual borders. Well, that takes us into the larger scope of cold fusion research and there is a ton of backstory here and it is not well publicized. Most people are not aware of what has been going on behind the scenes.

So, let me jump into kind of a high-level overview of this for the younger members of my audience. You know, I am just turning 50 and one of the things that I'm realizing is there are a lot of younger people out there who are not familiar with the history of a lot of these themes in science and technology. And so it helps to kind of give them that highle overview. So back in 1989, doctors Stanley Pawns and Martin Fleshman went public with the claim that low energy nuclear reactions in electrolytic cells generated excess heat and trace nuclear byproducts. Mainstream science jumped all over this, immediately dismissed their research and basically said, "Look, they went public too soon.

They didn't have enough data. They didn't have replications that they needed." All of those things. However, a small but growing community of very established, very prestigious scientists has been quietly working on cold fusion research for decades and generating results. So, let me ask what is the current state of leenr research today? uh Tim uh there is uh on a super superficial approach which says that there is only one type of alenr which is the pawn flashmon type electrolysis with paladium uh system however the story is much much longer than that in fact the best cold fusion work started well before the first world war and then uh at the London College and JJ Thompson in Cambridge was working on transmutation actually with sparking in hydrogen and they realized and published in the proceedings of Royal Society in London and in nature and in science These are wellestablished uh mainstream journals today. They have published their results, impeccable experimental results.

And the first world war came as a tragedy to call fusion. Let's let's say because all the young guys who were doing the footwork, the lab work volunteered or were sent uh to the Darden house to Turkey and they were ne and they never returned. They died simply. >> Okay. And with this uh this line of very promising, very interesting research line ceased.

However, inventors by sheer accident stumbled into this these effects over and over and over. So with the grace of God and uh and sheer luck there were a number of forgotten or forbidden patents inventions. Let me uh tell you the four major types of cold fusion or I I prefer catalytic fusion because it means more it makes you understand an engineer will understand that when a process is extremely difficult you can do two things use resonance or use catalysis. >> And all these uh inventors somehow stumbled into some form of catalysis. But let me explain you the four major forms of cold fusion or catalytic fusion.

The oldest is the sparking in hydrogen that is 120 years old and it is forgotten even by the let's say alanar community which is a a misfortune. It's a tragedy. So this is the the oldest and in my opinion a very promising form. several forgotten inventions attached to it and if we shall have sometimes uh some more times I would be glad to talk about the history and the engineering realization of of these forgotten inventions. So this is in my opinion the first group.

The second group is the dust fusion. When a charged dust particle is the cat catalyzes diffusion. How come it is possible? Because in a promo plasma especially if it is resonant lots of electrons are hitting the surface and it is charged to an enormous potential. There is no other way in in technology to reach uh billions of electron volts per meter uh uh electrical field density. It is enormous extreme.

But with this extreme electrical field, it is possible actually uh to compensate the positive charge of of two nucleons. Uh they are shielded by this extreme negative fields. So the two positive charge will not feel the the repulsive force of each other because uh these positive charges are overhelmed by the extreme uh negative charge accumulated on the surface of these uh uh dust particles. And let me tell you a a big secret of nature. Our sun is running on cold fusion.

That is dust fusion. Because there is always the space the space outside of us is it's not not empty at all. There is dust everywhere. uh the Parker uh uh uh spaceship collected lots of samples. So it is well known for the community that our interstellar uh space is filled with dust and this is the reason uh that uh we have this 11 year cycle in our our weather.

these cycles because planets or big planets are influencing the dust distribution around our around our sun. Therefore, at each 11 year and each 50th year and so on and so on, the amount of dust arriving [clears throat] to the surface of the sun is varying. Sometimes more than average, sometimes less. So this makes the periodic uh power output of our sun in fact. So uh this is another big subject.

However, I made experiments, lots of experiments on dust fusion reactors and it is quite easy even for a beginning if you have a kitchen microwave oven and the quartz tube resonant. I can teach you guys how to make uh dust fusion at home if you agree with your wife maybe to ruin your your home microwave oven. But it is not difficult at this first step. Of course, we improved several generation of reactors. I can show you lots of photographs and there is an extensive know how to design and run these dust fusion plasma reactors but uh they are useful to for transmutation for rare earth materials not for gold.

We tried gold but gold has a it is possible to make artificial uh gold but it has a different technology. It's a different subject of the talk. A friend of mine, Peter Grandich, half US citizen, half Hungarian, is made very advanced experiments. also a dust fusion, a kind of dust fusion, but it was done in the middle ages and several successful alchemist was beheaded cut their head simply because it was the propriety of state. I mean if someone else was able to make gold that guy would be able to hire a mercenary army.

thought it was quite dangerous to this state. So this is a another big chunk of catalyze fusion I would say. The third one is the uh cavity induced uh or or or bubble fusion let's say and it is also uh really demands lots of knowhow how to generate uh uh bubbles effectively how to make them uh to collapse. Usually engineers do everything to get rid of uh of of bubbles because when they collapse they destroyed metals nearby. So cavitation is a number one enemy of fluid mechanics.

We did everything to get rid of them. However, from time to time as uh some lucky inventors stumbled into this phenomena, they generate carbohydrates from water, oil actually, and some heat. But the knowhow is very important here as well. And the latest uh kit in the block is the pawn flashman electrolyes and it is generally to generate heat though in my opinion the the biggest market for LR is lowrade heat for let's say home heating. So it's very very important but as all all families of these uh let's say cold fusion or catalyze fusion are extremely demanding in technology in quality control and this is where our profession failed uh because the requirements are extremely tough extremely tough.

Well, thank you. Thank you. So, so that's four that is the four primary types that you're grouping them into. And the reason I wanted to say that was and again this is going back to the audience and people who may not be familiar with it or folks who may be out there saying I haven't heard of cold fusion in years. Is anything happening there? My response to them would be you have heard of cold fusion very recently.

It's just not being called that and that is a potential issue. So low energy nuclear reactions cold fusion has been rebranded and relabeled several times and that's intentionally to invo to avoid this scientific stigma that has plagued this field unfairly since 1989. So it's using terms like LENR, low energy nuclear reactions as well as condensed matter nuclear science, chemically assisted nuclear reactions, lattice confinement fusion, solid state fusion and much more. And in fact just last week I saw an article about a series of re research experiments conducted by NASA in lattice confinement fusion. So this is something that is it's growing.

There's a community out there and this is credible work. It's being done all over the place. As you mentioned there are four different types of it. So folks are approaching it kind of from different perspectives I guess and with different focus but it is not something that you know was a flash in the pan then disappeared. It has been quietly building and growing in the background.

Right. >> Yes. And if if I may add a fifth kind but we are uh near to it is the biological transmutation. Uh biology of course is the master of of all inventions. However, it is unfortunately it is so sophisticated that even we are unable uh to frame intelligent uh questions to to modern nature simply because we are too dumb uh to put uh the right questions and and uh to find the right answers.

However, this is known for the last 200 years since the origin of sophisticated chemical analysis that is the middle of the uh 8 19th century uh lots of samples were analyzed. So researchers analyzed the structure of the soil. what kind of elements you have in the soil. And then they analyzed the um chemical composition of plants and they realized that plants of course uh they after some treatment but plants are manufacturing for themselves the necessary trace elements even iron. that there is no enough iron in the soil.

Some plants are able to do it and animals also. And I met some [clears throat] very strange incidents very rare when some ladies uh in in the state of nervous breakdown I mean in divorce or or whatsoever they were sweating mercury. and in a large quantity. So when they touched when they touched gold medallions or rings they become brittle and and whitish because uh they made an amalgam. So this is a fifth kind and we made uh recently some years ago a very interesting uh scientific study with the help of high sensitive uh mass spectrometer.

uh the structure of the uh soil and uh the content of uh of the plants. The most usual shift was a shift in isotope structures. So let's say uh uh you have a distribution of of isotopes in iron. However, and it is well known as in the textbooks. However, in the plants, it was different.

They had more neutrons. So, their uh isotope structure shifted to contain more neutrons and it is due to biological effects. and these high sensitivity very expensive uh mass spectrometers ICCF uh so it's [clears throat] an English proverb uh inductively coupled plasma spectrometer uh it's an abbreviation they are able uh reliably to measure the isotop stop shifting. >> Okay. >> And and they were dramatic changes.

You wouldn't think but horseeradish is the most notorious in changing the isotop uh distribution. Why? We don't know. >> Interesting. Not surprising though. I have read so many breakthroughs that in biology recently, right? And then we have stuff like orc a orura theory, the hammeroff penrose theory which is talking about microtubules and quantum mechanical effects being connected to consciousness.

The biology leverages everything that it can and it has had billions of years through evolution through trial and error to perfect systems to take advantage of natural processes. So it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if we see things like LE and R pop up perhaps in a multitude of different ways. So if it's okay before we move on I did want to read kind of another list for people and again this is going back primarily towards the pawns and flashman side of things but there are some incredible scientists doing work in this area. You sir are one of those. It also attracts top tier chemists and physicists such as Dr.

Edmund Storms, Peter Heaggelstein, George Miley, Brian Josephson, Jean Paul Barbarian, Dave Nagel, Takakei Matsumoto, Michael Mccubre and many, many more. I believe at least two of the folks that I read there are Nobel Prize winners. At least one of them is. I believe two are. and several others are recipients of multiple prestigious awards, scientific fellowships on boards involved with governance, all sorts of things.

So, this area is not quack scientists. You know, the these are highly trusted and respected authorities who are involved with it. And again, it's very diverse. Everyone has diff slightly different focuses, but you have real people and big names working in cold fusion, right? Sure. Sure.

Uh Tim, it was my idea that we organized regularly ICCF international conference on cold fusion. However, this is a more or less closed community. So it was my idea that we cannot uh attract talented young people unless they are able to have handson experience in their own uh work desk. So this is the reason some two years ago I decided to make a publicly available simple sparkbased reactor called fusion reactor. We we call it study reactor which people can try and learn the difficulties the intricacies of this kind of cold fusion because this is where you can measure input electric energy with the help of a calorimeter and output electric energy again dissipating the gain into heat because that you can measure reliably and on the cheap the amount of energy produced.

So it is good for study uh only but if you have a uh hands-on experience you gain uh firsthand experience you know because you don't deceive yourself you will know that this is a real phenomena and it could be one of the key technology of the future because we need clean energy I mean in form of electricity even in winter, even in the middle of the night and when there is no wind at all and and it is movable. You can have an it in principle on an electric bicycle or a motor bike or a car, a plane, whatever. >> Well, I will get more information on that. That was one of the things you'd mentioned in email to me before our podcast was something called a pocket-sized reactor for basically amateurs, just people who were interested to learn more, get in and experiment. I probably know a dozen or two folks like that myself.

So, I'm going to get this link and what I'll do is put this into the YouTube show notes as well. So people who want to learn more, people who might be interested in buying one of these systems, you know, and I'm I'm not doing an advertisement for it. Obviously, I'm not compensated in any way. It is more about, hey, this is an interesting project and this is hands-on experimental science and research, right? So, I think it is exciting to have something that people can actually put their hands on and build and test and generate results. So I will put that in the YouTube show notes.

But I did want to ask about um calorimetry which has been the traditional way for measuring the pawns and fleshman style catalytic uh cold fusion. So I should ask first how has that progressed over time? Are the results improving? Is a process being developed to make that work? and calum calorimetry is a very difficult way to measure energy generation. Are there other ways for things like dust plasma fusion that work better? Uh it is hard to compare but dust fusion was quite reliable and uh I should like to teach interested people as well how to make uh dust fusion work at home also in your own kitchen because you believe yourself. Only thing you must do is to go uh to a lab and have your sample analyze before treatment and after treatment. So you you must compare uh uh the effect of treatment before and after.

In my opinion, the dust fusion is the cheapest and the simplest form of catalyzed fusion. Though it is very noisy, extremely so even your neighbors will will hear it and it is a very primitive form and most probably you will ruin after uh sometimes your your kitchen microwave oven but one can buy secondhand used microwave oven on the cheap so shouldn't problem. >> Okay. And that actually takes me to my next question. So you had mentioned before the interview ball lightning as an anomalous energy phenomena.

And that connected me back to researchers like Carrill Chukanov who have reported anomalies for microwave stimulated plasmoids again going back decades. He has done a ton of work on that. Very diligent, carefully controlled conditions. And when you mentioned ball lightning, that took me right back to his work. And it sounds like that is connected to the the dust fusion that you just described, right? >> Yes.

Tim uh the background story that people tacitly assume that what we learn in physics class in high school and in university is complete and reliable. So we can trust whatever our professor are telling us and we are taking our exams. I had the same opinion, firm firm opinion, uh that what actually what I get with my degree and with my PhD is rock solid until I met B lightning because ball lightning is is one of the two natural phenomena on earth which is defying every important conservation. law conservation of energy, conservation of linear momentum, conservation of angular momentum and the most painful conservation of electric [clears throat] charge. >> I I sent you some uh amazing ball lightning after effect photos.

Maybe sometimes we can devote a whole session to this issue because it will shake your whole soul if if uh you always trusted the found the fundamentals of physics. It it is really grossly violating all what is known. This was my first mistake at the Hungarian Academy of Sciences Nuclear Research Lab where I spent my first 20 years of my career that I was showing my colleague lots of video records. Uh when I visited B lightning sites, uh uh the insurance companies helped me. They asked me whether is it real lightning or bow lightning because they were shrewd.

They had no insurance policy on bull lightning. So if there was a bull lightning [laughter] they were relieved. They they don't have to pay and I was the expert who who judged whether is it just an ordinary lightning or ball lightning. And I visited uh maybe 50 cases. And what I saw it is not near but it is perfectly impossible.

And these are objects for example a piece of insulated wire where all the metal evaporated inside. >> I have photographs about it. So metal evaporated yet yet uh the the plastic uh insulation is unharmed. How come? The only way that the whole the only possible way that the whole metal just evaporated like that instantly. There was no time for heat transfer.

There were cases for example in Siberia when a ball lightning hit a wet pond uh a pond of water on sand. The water evaporated immediately and to the depth of 10 cm the sand turned into glass >> in one tenth of a second. How come? It is strictly impossible by ordinary heat transfer which is my profession. The only way is to do it with an a very intensive electron beam. But a bow lightning is a it looks like an innocent floating plasma.

You cannot store it's strictly impossible to store that much uh electric energy strictly ruled out by our reliable physics. So these observations made me start to doubt about the fundamentals of physics and I think there is an escape route because the uh fundamentals are correct except except the structure of spacetime. M >> so in my opinion there is an other uh unused space dimension let's say hyperspace or hyperspace depends on how you pronounce and this is the first or only natural phenomena which takes place in four space dimension instead of the our usual >> okay >> so that's a weird The the other very weird phenomena which everybody saw, everybody is familiar is the tornado which is strictly violating the conservation of energy, conservation of linear and especially the conservation of angular momentum. Strictly impossible. >> Well, I love it that you mentioned tornadoes.

That takes me to something called it was called the plasma vault and I believe it was the brainchild of Ari de Gis but I I might be mistaken there. I think he was at least involved with it in some way years ago. He he passed several years ago as you're probably aware. Um this plasma vault was a vortex plasma chamber and what made that interesting was it was self-compressing. It started with a really wide spin.

And it started with kind of a you know like an anode I guess with with a high voltage coming off it and that spun down to a single point and it compressed that plasma along the way. And what's intriguing about that, a a colleague of mine ran this for months and he said it is generating rare isotopes that shouldn't exist and he said you know these are only created in breeder reactors and he's like we've created it was only a tiny amount but he said we've created more of these and he had them professionally analyzed. We've created more of these this this rare I believe it was an isotope of potassium than breeder reactors create per year around the world. And so for me that was kind of a wakeup call where I said you know there are more ways to skin this cat than we typically think of. Ball lightning seems like it's on that same spectrum there.

And then you have researchers like Stannislov Adamo as well as Bob Greener and Ken Schers who have reported time and time again that high voltage plasma discharges can act as a catalyst for LENR reactions. So what you're saying about ball lightning as well as tornadoes, spin, static, things like that, it seems like there is something really there. If we dig in, we may be able to harness that, right? >> Sure. Sure. Though in my opinion, B lightning, of course, we cannot create it artificially.

All experiments failed in that regard. However, uh we can create special type of catalytic plasma by spark. one big type, one big group and the other of course is a dust catalyzed fusion which is slightly more simple. M now could things like ball lightning or plasma fusion could these show us a connection between the hot fusion tokamac research that's being done by what we call big science and then cold fusion reactions that are happening in these plasma electrolytic systems. Could this help form a bridge between these two communities where they can start to speak more of the same language and everyone can move forward in unison? >> I wish we could have build this bridge but uh unfortunately uh I don't see this possibility.

uh I am rather pessimistic uh uh knowing the path of uh of [clears throat] controlled hot fusion in the last 70 years or so I think uh it's a waste of time a waste of money it will never work you cannot fight against turbulence I fought 20 years of my life against understanding turbulence because I calculated severe nuclear accidents and in a severe nuclear accidents the hot boiling water is oozing out of the primary cooling system of the nuclear reactor and it is two-phase turbulent flow and for no one is able to calculate it. We can do some mismatch. We can do some some uh fudge fudging. But no, that's the end of real science. Uh nature is is wicked in case of turbulence.

>> Okay. Okay. So there is definitely a lot there as well as some cultural gaps as well. Now, how do these things relate to your own patent for generating condensed plasmoids? That was something I wanted to touch on. Again, congratulations on that.

That is this year, I guess. That is a 2025 patent filing. So, could you tell us a little bit about the patent that you currently have? uh it is just a patent application and uh the patent application was submitted uh due to the uh wish of of the sponsor. In my opinion, it is more of the fundamental physics than of uh practical uh foundations, practical realization. In fact, it is not public but uh we have already a self- sustaining fusion reactor when we are not feeding into the output electricity into a calorie meter to to measure because some people especially business people are not familiar how to use the calorimeter.

But if uh the system is self- sustaining then even the grosser at the uh corner will understand that this uh device doesn't need any fuel. It just uh uh generates uh electricity and heat and whatever. I wanted to ask again, LENR goes under the guise of many different scientific labels and from reading what I see is steady incremental experimental progress that again has been going forward for decades. Do you see a breakthrough happening on the horizon or do you see a future for this dominated by continued incremental improvements in the existing experiments, the existing research paths? >> Uh we cannot spare blood, sweat and tears. So it's an incremental [clears throat] increment of very slow progress.

>> I appreciate you're saying that. That's that that is what I've seen in the past. And I think I think people sometimes kind of give up because they say, "Oh, well, you know, I I looked at this a week ago. I'm going to look at it today. I don't see anything different." But it does change.

And when you look back over time, you know, and actually that takes me to a question about Dr. Eugene Malo. He really put his reputation on the line back in the 1990s when he started Infinite Energy magazine which again you are editor of. Um how do you think he would look at the progress that has been made you know in the last 20 years if he was still with us? Uh maybe the uh viewers uh don't know the horserawn. Three tugs killed him and [clears throat] uh within months two guys wanted to kill me also after a very successful cold fusion experiments and some other guys a colleague of mine in our lab was also poisoned I would say.

So there was a spread of very suspicious deaths at the middle of the '9s and uh it coincided with this mere campaign against Ponen Fleshman. >> Interesting. >> Uh tragic I would I would rather say uh tragic. >> Well, absolutely tragic. and when when he passed and again this was one of the reasons that I was so excited to do this interview with you because this lets us touch on the legacy that he created.

Um I Infinite Energy magazine was really the community center. At least from what I could tell, it was the community center for cold fusion and ler research, right? This was what brought people together, let them share experiments, let them share their their writeups and all of that stuff. It was focused on this. I know that there are lots of other like again you the the ICF there are conferences there are other publications and things like that but but uh infinite energy was the big one and and Malo was he was a larger than life figure so yeah his loss was an absolute tragedy >> he was a big loss and I couldn't replace him at all because he was well connected ed in the United States. This is the reason he was eliminated in my opinion.

Me in Hungary, uh small guy, I was able to review only scientific papers. If they were incorrect or had to be uh mended here or there, I could do this kind of background work. But he was the steam engine on this trip. [clears throat] >> I want to explore bio energy a little bit more because we had touched on that earlier. Um how do you detect and measure this and can it be explained in any way by normal cellular biological processes? Well, uh there are very simple practical ways uh to to measure this bio energy.

Let's say by influencing the the growth speed of germination. Let's say if you have uh a control of 100 seeds untouched and you treat an other hundreds under the same lightning, same watering and so on, you just want let's say to heal or harm them. So this is one simple cheap way though cumbersome but uh personally I was very intrigued with the kind of table dance or table de uh levitation uh descriptions because me being an energy researcher, I was pissed off that some sort of energy appears which I do not understand. And it was my sacred duty as an energy researcher to understand every form of energy because in a nuclear accident we meet all kind of energy right from the energy of nuclei until heat and and the mechanical energy of moving fluid and plasma. all kind of energy is there.

Therefore, I thought that I am competent enough. I have PhD in in in thermal or in energy engineering and there should be no form of energy on this planet which I do not understand. And these biological anomalies uh pissed me off really. They were really intriguing. They obeyed laws which I did not understand.

So I went uh to New York while I was working at the Brook Haven National Lab. Every weekend I went to New York City and went to the Aen Garrett Library. I collected uh all the observations there. Then I continued in London uh in the huge library of society of psychic research digging up 100 years, 200 years old observations on different continents, different times, different persons. I was quite sure that uh this is abseld science.

This just cannot happen. However, a very definite pattern emerged from all these uh observations from all over the world and they were quite similar and this was a chill on my back that uh this stuff is true and then it was a challenge to me. Okay, I don't understand. I'm stupid, but at least I have the will to learn about it. Why the rest of the guys were just rejecting it as sos science and I always trusted the power of of real scientific investigations.

I think the methods of science are always valid and there should be no hindrance whatever uh uh in front of science we are competent. The only thing which we have to learn that we do not know enough yet about nature. Nature has lots of cards in in his or her sleeve. So the creator knows a lot more and biology has all the tools. Therefore I started to dig in uh into this phenomena it and it would be another big long lecture but the essence in a nutshell uh from physics uh in especially in electronamics rotation is missing.

There is no rotation. You'll have a look at the Maxwell equations and you have static charge and the charge which is moving that is electric current but there is no angular velocity in the equations of electronamics. So that is missing. >> Okay. And therefore, however, biology is using it because all materials of biology are unlike our technical materials which are crystal or homo or some some amorphous.

But in biological materials are always chyro. >> Yeah. The kirality. Yes. >> Kirality always.

Nothing else. So it's a quite different word. So in in case of living electronamics in electronamics in living beings charges are forced to rotate. There is no other way for them to move. Proteins everything is in chyro form.

And this is a a not a qualitative but a fundamental qualitative difference. And life depends on a molecule's ATP adonosine triphosphate. And that is made with the help of nonomours nonoms with the revolution number of 6,000 revolution per minutes. M >> and these are the most uh intricate parts of life and there is uh no living being without these nanom motors. Viruses don't have but they are not living beings.

They are just parasites on living beings. But even on bacteria you already have these nanom motors and uh their angular velocities is extremely high and we in engineering don't have anything near to it. So biology is far more sophisticated than our technology which is uh subject of engineering curriculum in let's say calte or MIT or at high inuric whatever whatever so that kind of engineering is far more sophisticated than than what we know and this is my main research I've uh research line in in biology in fact. M so when I first kind of pondered this idea of could le be happening inside of cells you know and I think this is kind of the reaction the mainstream has they're like well when you think about the amount of energy that's required to initiate a fusion reaction when you're looking at it from that bulk matter perspective you're like this doesn't seem possible in any way but when I started to kind of think a little bit more carefully about it I thought well The whole idea from what I understand is that these cold fusion reactions are kind of edge or boundary layer reactions, right? This idea of forcing hydrogen atoms into cracks in like the platinum palladium electrode and you know and as that crack narrows it self-compresses and then you get L&R. So you don't have to raise the energy of the bulk material to create fusion like you would in a tokamac.

Instead, you're basically just creating an edge case and the rest of the hydrogen just stays there and nothing happens to it. And so I thought, you know, cases like that do happen inside of cells. These are incredibly intricate, tiny systems. They do have energy. Perhaps that could be happening there.

And again, biology has so many different creative ways to leverage energetic effects because it has had billions of years of evolution to perfect those. >> Sure. Sure. Uh maybe once we shall have an opportunity to talk about anti-gravity. I built anti-gravity devices.

uh two, one intentionally, the other quite by a freak accident with a with dusty plasma. But I was always intrigued with the flight of insect and insect flight does not obey fluid mechanics. Insects just cannot fly with fluid mechanics. And I dare say this not as impudence but by sheer technical background. I spent 50 years of my life in in fluid mechanics.

So I know what is possible and what is not possible. And the entomologist, people who who really study insects, they are interested in the sex in the reproduction, the the social behavior, but they are useless whenever it concerners about the flight of insects. It's a very intricate subject. We can learn about gravity and anti-gravity a lot by studying insect flights. A common uh house flight can teach us a lot about gravity.

>> Interesting. So that is something to return to in the future. And again, I know you have a wealth of ideas and a tremendous vast amount of experience to share and you have worked with so many amazing figures. I would love to have you back in the future. We can expand on some of these other things.

I also moderate the alt propulsion conference. I would love to have you do some presentations there as well. Today my hope had been to try and focus things in a little bit more on cold fusion. And again, the majority of the reason for that is it has been off a lot of people's radar for a long time. So, it helps to kind of bring them back and focus them on it and say, "Hey, this is moving forward." And I want them to visit Infinite Energy magazine.

I will put links up to that. I will put links up to um to your materials as well. And hopefully we can get more interest here from the audience in this. So, George, >> I I have to say that uh the link is not accessible anymore as far as I know. >> Okay.

>> It's it's a very sad very sad stuff. >> I I'll try archive.org. I will try a link to that and then I'll put the original below that in case it's able to come back online. Um, you know, again, I I was convinced that infinite energy was gone back in 2004 and and yet it persisted and I I do hope to see it, you know, resurrected once again. That would be amazing.

So, >> sure, sure, sure. Well, >> George, let me thank you so much for your time today, sir. >> You are always welcome.