The UFO Phenomenon, Nonhuman Intelligences, & Experiencers w/ Professor Garry Nolan

Transcript

hey everybody welcome back to engaging the phenomenon and today we are honored to have back on Dr Gary Nolan and Dr Gary Nolan is immunologist academic inventor business executive and uh he runs the Nolan Lab at Stanford University so welcome Gary merry Christmas happy Hanukkah merry Pagan rituals to you all right is the season and uh you know thanks again for coming on Gary it's it's been a while since we had our last talk on here and a lot has changed since then so yeah given given everything that's that's gone on thus far uh what what are your some of your thoughts on what we're seeing now uh with you know we we've had like the third Congressional hearing now I mean do you see that as progress of course I mean you know I think the the progress has been getting significant members in the House of Representatives as well as in Congress to recognize that the phenomenon is real now phenomenon is not a conclusion phenomenon is data and so everybody recognizes now that the data merits discussion and so uh the question is what are the hypotheses around it and UAP are now definitely on everybody's mind especially with the recent drone issues in the United Kingdom uh in the US over military bases along New Jersey you're in New Jersey aren't you I'm in New York but you're in New York yeah adjacent New Jersey adjacent um and a clear distinction just so you know clear distinction know very tribal up there um and so given the nature of the drones the timing and their similarity in some cases to what a UAP or uh might represent it's on everybody's mind now and what's also in everybody's mind and I think this is the mistake that the government has made uh is that because they've been so evasive about the answers that they're giving around this it points out to everybody that they just by Nature can't seem to tell the truth uh and by Nature seem to want to dis or misinform and so you know it it makes it frankly easier for the people in the let's say the more um mainstream UAP Arena to make the argument that hey there are things happening we need more eyes on the sky for whatever reason and then we need real vetting of that information uh so that we can inform both the public as well as governmental policy and you know just just get your broad it up and I know a lot of people are probably thinking about it what what's your what's your take so far in the Drone situation you know I I honestly don't know um what the true facts are and I am working with people who are looking extremely closely at all of this uh and it is certainly a mixture of real drones human made of various levels of sophistication um who's making them and who's doing it you know you can speculate endlessly there's probably a few you uh drone hobbyists getting in on the action now and ho and hoaxing and I wouldn't be surprised if there's a few real nhi hanging around and wondering what the monkeys are up to this time yeah and and for people watching and listening uh Lou Alando recently did a uh a short like podcast on his YouTube channel that you can check out where he he discusses some ideas about what what he thinks on the current situation as well which I thought was insightful um I I think what's nice though that in even I'm going to call it the mainstream UAP community and by that I mean the professional groups uh within the community that are interested in making sure that this is all talked about in very uh easy standard down to Earth language is that even they are being very careful about the conclusions that they come to um which I think is a great Advance over for instance the Twitter that I joined back in 2016 um where uh so I think you know and and I had called at that time for the community to professionalize itself and you know I don't think it was my saying that but I think that collectively uh the community has professionalized its way of thinking realizing that that's the best way to influence friends family government and others yeah and and yeah I you know I think you know in defense of of that kind of uh community that you know it was you know people had in a sense tried probably to professionalize it and there were a few standouts like Stanton fredman and and others but you you know the the stigma and and the way that people were kind of their thoughts were minimized and it was like put to the side definitely didn't help their their cause a lot of people you know there's always people were frustrated yeah rightly so and that frustration you know boiled over into the Twitter spere um and you know I think we're still frustrated but the the continual denials as even seen recently over the drones by the government have just started to become laughable and everybody sees how laughable they are so to that you know to that extent it's helpful to us because now we can say oh look at what they did with the drones look at how look at how messed up that was yeah and it's so apparent in everybody's face so what what do you think of now in the mainstream media pretty much it it's not irregular or outstanding per se to hear that there are UAP or UFO crash retrievals that's almost become like common gossip so you know with that you we've had several people come on the record you know David grush Lil Lando you know making some pretty bold statements what you know what else is it going to take I mean for for that issue to you know I mean Congress seems uh bent on on discovering the truth about it but they're kind of being blocked so where do we stand with that well I think at some point well there's two there's two directions at some point somebody will come forward or uh maybe Trump will uh break the ice on it um I'm I'm hopeful for that he certainly he certainly knows how to use the levers of chaos to attain uh goals and I mean that in a positive way um and he just doesn't play by the rules uh and the conventions and you know for for better or worse uh if he applies that same approach to the UAP Arena um that could be a good thing for us uh so you know I'm um I'm actually hopeful of that I mean many of the people I know who know people in Trump's Inner Circle are pre are pressuring the Inner Circle at least to pressure uh or to ask Trump I don't think Trump can be pressured to ask Trump to uh to release some of the information um you know I it it comes down to whether or not there really are security issues related to releasing information that there are there are allegedly nhi here or there are not and these are blue programs um us programs that we're seeing I mean you know just letting people know that would be would be good enough in my mind um so that's kind of the that's that's the that's the One Direction where it it comes out on the government the other is that somebody else might come forward um with a real whistleblower uh who can be vetted and shown to be I mean they can say what they want it will be front page news for a couple of days but unless and until uh a piece of functional equipment is shown or somebody rolls out a body as um Nancy mace I think said the other day um I want to see the bodies um I think she said I want to see a body rolled out on a gurnie I thought that was I thought that was really great um and uh you know that that it comes down to what are the standards of evidence for different people you know for me the standard of evidence is what I saw that standard of evidence doesn't work for somebody else because mine is an anecdote right right so I don't need to be convinced of anything I just need to find a way to convince others I mean what you saw during your personal experiences with the pH my personal during my personal experiences long ago um so I don't need to be convinced that there's something to this what it was I don't know but it certainly wasn't anything in our normal environment you know I I've talked about it it could be a dream Etc I mean when I saw something out when I was a paper boy that was not a dream um so and so then there's the there sort of like both the government releasing information and people coming out from within the government releasing information publicly and legally uh it it is one track the other is you know people are just starting to take things into their own hands you know I mean they really are I mean everything from the very open Galileo project to now there's lots of eyes on the sky in New Jersey I just saw a tweet from someone about a a New Jersey station that was filmed some sort of an orb uh that was clearly not a drone um and so people are more willing to look up and that might lead to some interesting result but you know it's funny people often say that the drones that they see or the the UAP that people take images of with all the cameras in the world are always fuzzy well even when they were taking pictures of clearly things that are drones they're fuzzy so you know don't blame don't say say that that's the limitation fuzzy photos because the cameras just aren't good enough to do what it is that would Merit or allow for a conclusion I mean you can take a video all you want and and and even if it were real somebody will claim it CGI uh so you know there's there's that but you know people are taking other things into their own hands of they're they're watching for things that might crash and they're watching to see if they can get there first uh and that might be that might be what's required uh and while I think that within the US there's no there's very little chance that the public would be able to get to something before the alleged groups that allegedly uh are involved with collecting this stuff they they have easy access to the US they don't have easy access to everything in the world and so there might be a more opportune moment that arrives and so you know based on everybody you've spoken to or evidence that you've seen altoe what are your thoughts on the likelihood that there actually is uh crashed or downed or in any way shape or form retrieved and landed nonhuman intelligence technology well I mean if if I believe the people that I talk to who are otherwise credible individuals everything that has been not everything but the the if you distill it down to what the meaning is is that there have been crash retrievals end of story I mean I said this before on open broadcasts I was supposed to be amongst a group gaining access to you know pieces of one of the craft and that just a week or two before we were supposed to uh a certain somebody that everybody talks about but I won't I won't name names here uh basically took away the access I mean I I I I I know the exact address of where that was exact the facility yeah I know exactly where it where it was um and uh so I mean but and and then I verified it with another person I said does this name mean anything to you and this person is very knowledgeable and said of course that's where the that's where one of the craft was held but it's not there anymore right and was this this was like a large part of it or an intact vehicle uh pieces of it stowed away in supposedly allegedly boxes literally wooden crates like yeah Indiana Jones Indiana Jones and and what's what was interesting about that is that the reason that it was claimed that we were going to have access to the stuff was because um the program the people doing the reverse engineering allegedly uh weren't able uh to figure out what it was so all whatever money had been diverted um these particular pieces were were claimed that they couldn't figure out what it was but you know I I question that because maybe if the claims are that we have 20 of these things you don't need to have all 20 of them out you know you might you might just want to save them and put them in places that are safe and secure um until such time as you know a review of inventory tells you that hey I need that piece to verify something you know if you had one or two and the rest are basically replicates or similar then you don't need all of them out at the same time so just because they're sitting in a box somewhere doesn't mean and imply that nobody knows what to do with them yeah and why were you blocked and was it just you that was blocked or a group no whole group the whole group was blocked who knows I mean we were never given a reason we were just said somebody just came in found out about it and said no yeah and and you know who the individual is MH yeah um and yeah I mean and he probably had good reason you know I don't I I I don't disparage right the decision but I was I never had to sign anything that said I couldn't talk about it right yeah and if I do sign something that says I can't talk about things I will not talk about them right and if I agree with somebody that I won't talk about something even without you know some sort of clearance associated with it I will not talk about it I mean I honor uh my agreements yeah and you know with with all that considered um you know it's it's hard to imagine that that you know with everything that's already happened that there there's just going to be some kind of admittance that we do have this kind of material well there's if you can give a reason a good reason um why you should gain access to something for instance if you have a capability that to analyze something or an idea then um that might be sufficient catnip for those who have the material to release it you know if but if they look at someone like me or whatever group I put together and they say well we have all of this we don't need him then there's no reason to give it to me and I understand that um you know so the the point is though the out the leverage will have to come from multiple angles simultaneously it's got to come from the government they got to feel under constant pressure they've got to feel Under Pressure legally that whistleblowers might come forward uh and you know do something cat you know c as I say catastrophic disclosure whatever that means um basically uncontrolled uh or um you know we get lucky and something comes down uh and the public sees it before anybody can seize it yeah and what are what are your thoughts on um I guess you know we there's talk about the the Legacy programs and they retrieve these objects and uh that there's allegedly you know biological material or bodies involved with with these I mean given everybody you've spoken to what what's the indication on that yeah well just what I said I mean it's it's everybody has said that that's the case I have not verified so um it's it's data it's I mean at this point for me it's even less than data it's anecdote I mean anecdotes can be data uh and the stories all comport with each other um but you wonder to what extent is there some kind of circular story that's gone around that's reinforcing itself right um and so you know any real scientist has to be cautious um and uh you know it's it's one thing to have a belief it's another thing to make a claim uh and I'm not going to make any claims until I can hand something off to another scientist and say you can repeat this uh and so that's where we're stuck um so okay but then what is a proof absent walking on the stage with an alien or an ET or whatever an H nhi I like that term actually um you know another proof would be a piece of material that shows a function that humans are not capable of or is engineered in a way that humans cannot accomplish or as AI is doing and others uh using you know sufficiently Advanced sensor systems whether they're telescopic or radio frequency um or gravimetric to detect anomalies uh in the atmosphere um you know I think that's that's the best we can do yeah and I want to shift gears a little bit here and discuss the connection between the UFO phenomenon or UAP and um maybe we can say ESP or anomalous mental cognition what why is there such a um there seems to be such a connection between the two well um of course there's a long long history independent of UAP of claims about sigh and and PSY various psychic power whether it's Clairvoyance or telepathy or psychokinesis I mean those claims have been around a while um and while the meta analysis seems to suggest strongly that it's all true uh and that's in scientifically published papers again it's sufficiently irreproducible that you can't make it happen on call and so it it remains it remains in the area of interesting yet still formally unproven uh I would you know I mean do I look at the data and say hey that's pretty good that's pretty good evidence evidence is not proof um data is not conclusion um so now you could have let's say two answers to it one is that sigh is real and telepathy is real uh however that works um or you could have a situation where whatever the nhi are are sufficiently Advanced that they can you know uh Target your neurons uh with machines that talk to you right and and you know we already have devices that you hear about from the government that basically make resonance in your skull uh that create sound yeah then psychotronics and that kind of yeah and those are not magic those are just using the physics uh of today along with knowledge about how you know the human brain works so you could imagine that maybe there's a you know if if they're so Advanced they would have much more uh complete ability to send a message into your head that had nothing to do with telepathy and had everything to do with just pure science now I believe that even if you want to talk about telepathy at some point it's got to be reduced to a scientific explanation about how information passes from one place to another that's not electromagnetic right and and so it's it's the it's one of those as I call them um Zen questions an answer is that no matter what the answer is it's interesting uh as opposed to if the answer is no then you just wasted a lot of time yeah and that's you know that's something I love about the UAP or you know the UFO subject and question and idea is that you know we have these apparent physical objects you can track them on radar and and videotape and such and there's physical traces in evidence but there seem to demonstrate and there's a lot of correlation between what we would consider physics and then this other box which we would consider metaphysics but we it's it's just so um repeated that right there seems to be a pattern well I think the the question and I asked this at the soul conference or I stated this at the soul conference is okay given the completeness of what it is that people claim is happening what level of civilizational structure would be required to ex to CLA to basically explain what they're capable of I mean what what level of civilization what's it called the um kardashev scale cardv scale um is required to accomplish that is it is it like what humans could do a thousand years from now um would it require 100,000 years for humans to to create these capabilities you know if we were left on our own um or is it you know kardish of level 18 that's required to to do all of this um so the what that basically means is has there been sufficient time in today's Universe let's forget about multiverses into today's Universe to enable a civilization to attain those capabilities uh as well as get here cuz asking the question are they here if you can't answer the question can they get here is meaningless so yeah so you go back to First principles and you say can they get here well that means when did they become able to get from one place to another you know the universe had planets and and sufficient uh heavy met heavy elements about 10 billion years ago so you had 10 billion years for something to evolve to a level of intelligence build ships and get from one place to another they could be they could you know they could get from one side of the galaxy to another I was speaking with AI about it he says yeah it would take maybe uh a few hundred million to half a million years even with our own technology to get from one end of our galaxy to another um so that's not a long time uh 100 thousand years um or a million years given that the Universe could have generated civilizations 100 to 500 times earlier than that um so once you get to that level you have to ask then two questions why would they even care about us at some level were bugs you would think that they would have just generated automated systems to deal with evolving new species yeah but this is all the stuff is science fiction I mean these kinds of books have been written uh and so uh you know it but just because they were written in a science fiction book doesn't mean that they're not Food For Thought or foundational thinking um so you know I I don't have a problem with them being here in terms of can they get here so but when you're talking to other people you have to start with asking the interesting question and making sure that they understand can they you know what do you think can they get here and that usually means the first question is well how many civilizations are out there do you think and if you ask the average person on the street that question you often find that certainly a large majority of people say yeah sure there's probably something out there okay well do you think they could get here now Neil degrass Tyson says no but Neil's just wrong um you know he he says well you know blah blah blah they you know takes too long blah blah blah well you know who gets on the craft on the first day doesn't mean that have to be the same person who gets off on the other side or whatever seed gets planted on the other side or printed on the other side and what you know what do you think could be you know because it's not just like you know we have these objects or intelligences and they're observing I mean it it seems whether you know you take today's accounts of experiencers or you know historical accounts and you know that can be interpreted many ways but you have interactions so so I mean clearly this the the intelligence has has chosen to take some initiative to interact with us I mean why why do you think that is um well I mean I I just can't say I don't know I mean it's like it's like in James Fox's movie at the end where I say I'm not going to answer that question it it people are like oh Gary knows something no it's not because I know something it's because the context of the question is so deep that there's a thousand different ways that you can answer it um and it depends upon the situation I I think the bigger issue about so-called experiencers is addressing first the psychological trauma uh the PTSD that it induces in these people I mean first you have to weed out whether or not there truly is a mental health issue and once you've shown that there's not a mental health issue then you're then you start to be in John Mack territory and he laid out a pretty good battle plan of how you should uh how you should deal with it um you know I've often asked statistically how many experiences do you need uh of sufficiently similar um storyline uh or story lines categorized into let's say maybe a dozen um to say that this is repeatable in in human experience but you know if you know Carl Young uh the collective unconscious as he called it you know is it is it bred into our genes to have these kinds of dreams or interactions because that's just how the human consciousness is is designed um and I'm not saying that it's hallucination I'm just saying that it's it's it's bred into people to have some kind of experience that has nothing to do with nhi you know I mean it's bred into you to have sexual interest in another person and imagine what do you make then of of cases where where people had reported a UAP interaction that there were there were physical effects yeah well I mean that's that's a that's a a different level of experience yeah right that needs to be the data needs to be collected it needs to be vetted as as jacqu would say cleaned um filtered and yeah but it's a St Story I mean James that's the problem it's stories it it it changed that person and maybe that's the goal if you want to look for a goal it might have nothing to do with some nefarious agenda other than to wake people up in some manner to look up and look Beyond themselves and so I mean that's the simplest thing that one could do but again you could you you know absent the evidence of like some sort of tangible leftovers or some sort of you know bodily harm or change that occurred to them um that could be something this is built into our Collective unconscious and and our genes and I might be asking the wrong person this question but have you ever have you ever thought like you know why why why did I have this experience you know given your experiences I don't know I really don't no not the answer but I mean do you must contemplate that no yeah but you know I I try not to be a narcissist that somehow I was important exactly I mean I I do see that as a problem I see it as a problem that people take these messages as granting them some sort of level of profit right I mean even for me in my experience experiences I it took me initially I just took it at face value because I I that's all I could do I knew it happened but then I started to wonder about am I like just interpreting what happened incorrect like even if there was a message right is is it metaphoric is it symbolic am I supposed to take it at face value is it a deception I mean I I had all these you know and I still have all these questions you know I you know regardless my feelings on it and what I think is the truth that you know there that is but I I think a lot of you know I I see that a lot of experiencers take whatever they were communicated at face value and then they share that as that they have the answer and that's I I don't really I don't think that's the right way to go about it yeah I think that you need to consider the Lost in Translation problem right is that a complex idea can be misinterpreted or it was so complex that it's distilled down to something that you think it has this meaning but it really had some other kind of meaning um so I don't know maybe the best way to look at it is to say and not obsess is to say okay this has caused me to change my Outlook on what it is that's around me because you have to even as a scientist rank order the possibility and your ability to confirm or not the hypothesis and and say okay well I can only go this far it's the you know it's good time after bad um but you know maybe what you do is you take the experience and how it taught you to look Beyond and then use that proactively in other parts of your life you know I am very good in my science at opening my mind to possibilities and then capturing ideas that I can Implement for the betterment of my lab's work or you know some practical outcome um and I don't know if that was created by me wondering about what it was that I saw but it certainly would be part of a personal training regimen that I think was important for me to say hey I can take ideas from different places and put them together into something practical that becomes an invention that then becomes a company that then helps Humanity so I would say to experiencers you know you have to recognize the line and the time where good time after bad so what I would say that for many experiencers who are sort of traumatized by and this is my personal opinion by these events and trying to come up with the answer is is to say well there might not be an answer but you have the makings to be a great scientist because scientists obsess about answers that have questions that have no answers because you often are looking for it and that often sometimes makes the best scientists that they look for questions that don't have answers and try to find solutions to them so I would say you know see your experience as something to learn from but don't uh don't obsess too much about it especially if you come to the realization that it's just not going to be answered in your lifetime yeah gonna get hammered for saying all of that I'm sure but uh I'm not I'm I'm not against the experien or Community because obviously I am one um but I am saying that you know step back and see what it is that you might be able to learn from it yeah well and a you know this kind of came into my mind because you know I was thinking oh well a lot of times experiencers feel they're not heard and we only hear like the military narrative uh but you know to really take that that question further you know a lot even what you see in the media now with the drones per se mhm is the the it's very kind of there's a lot of alarm behind the the media messaging on on UFOs and UAP non-human intelligence so you know anxiety is clickbait right but I wanted to ask since you know you've spoken to to people right people probably in the know and and what have you so given everyone you've spoken to and your own thinking your own reasoning your own antidotes or evidence yeah an anecdotes antidotes so was was is there anything in your mind that's like saying wow we this is this is a threat and we should be really concerned um given I'm not so much worried that whatever let's say nhi might be is a threat um I just I'm just not uh because if they could if they wanted to do something they long ago would have right so given what we see their capabilities are so what I am worried about though is that other nation states who are inimicable to the United States would use this as a cover to exploit to go after us interests you know basically as a form of chaff uh or Cloud to to mess up um us interests so you know if if you made yourself look like a UAP could you sneak a bomb in to the middle of New York City or big drone that would be ignored and basically be a terrorist threat I mean just look at what the Ukraine has been able to do with drones against all powerful Russia uh and imagine that something like that could be done against the US by you know what would essentially be thought of as a terrorist organization so I mean all I think I mean in the best possible way that you could take you know Lou alzando and Chris melons and others remonstrations about this is that we should not be ignoring anomalies in the sky because some of them might actually be earth-based threats um and so you know I think Lou and Chris and everybody else and Jay Stratton have coted the hell out of what they say yeah um in the best possible sense of the words because they're just saying if it's clearly there we shouldn't ignore it so all these gosh darn statements by our own spokespeople say you know even about the recent events saying well as we haven't been able to show that as a threat well you haven't been able to show that it's not a threat so by the nature of risk it's a threat you know the nature of how you perceive risk the nature of what the role of the military and our governmental operations are supposed to do is the unknown is a threat until it's proven to not be so if you have proof that it's not or Reason to say that it's not you need to give us the data and the analytic methods like a scientist would so that I can verify what it is you're saying and if you're telling me that and and you provide all of that information that would be great I can go home and do my day job yeah or you could calm the populace of New Jersey who you know if you were in a room with them would probably scream you into silence if you were a military or government spokesperson they would the audience would scream you into silence yeah and you know again in um I don't know recent conversation you know whether it's catastrophic disclosure or or whatnot yeah there's been a lot of different statements about some some kind of timeline and I I know you're not a prophit in that regard but I mean what are what are we supposed to make that I don't I don't know if that's some kind I think it's all rubbish I I honestly I think that this idea of a timeline um you know it it gets clicks you you know whose timeline nh's timeline right and well and this is I I don't want to say it's a rumor I guess you can say it's I I I you know personally I have zero evidence for it and you know people say oh 2027 whatever right right right I mean it's it okay well 2027 will happen one day pretty soon so we can wait soon pretty soon but you know a absent absent some definitive statement about what going to happen um I'm not going to I'm not going to hide in a bomb shelter until then yeah um I you know I'll just I'll just fly to my my secret hideout in New Zealand in the mountains yeah and you know what do you make of the idea that non-human intelligence is somehow influencing Us in in different ways even even from like a top- down perspective Ive where they have some kind of influence over us not disclosing I don't know I mean it and all you need to do is show up in the sky over a battlefield and you influence people right I mean I've said this before it's it's an intelligence test can you look up in the sky and see an anomally for what it is and not just mentally screen it out and never see it in the first place and so maybe the New Jersey incidents whether let's say they were run by some sort of government or semi-government operation for whatever unknowable reason um it had the let's call it side benefit to the UAP movement uh that people are now more aware of things in the sky and less likely to dismiss them now obviously I think we're still back at the point of 95% of things that are seen can be explained yeah and are praic and so you know we we obviously don't want to flood the flood the Zone with reports of planes yeah um so it's it's I comes back to almost your very first question have things changed a huge portion of the US population is now aware that there are things in the sky that the US government has no idea of what they are um and it immediately leaves open one of the possibilities that some of them might be nhi and and that's progress to me I mean do how do you think people are going to take that the inevitable um Revelation that you know we are being interacted with by some form of non-human intelligence I I think you know for a subset of the world's population they'll be um rejoicing uh there will be certainly consternation as to what and how it affects people but if it doesn't change what goes on your kitchen table right you know very soon uh the uh you know it will it will fall off the top of the headlines um again it can if Biden or Trump got up and said they're here um obviously it would be news um but unless they walked again an alien out on stage or showed something it would fall off the pages because it's it's what's the the questions really are the next is what's the agenda what do you know you know what have we learned um and that will only be important to certain people you know it will be important to let's say commercial interests how can we use it I mean people like me I'm very practical it's like okay how can I use that information to make something I mean do you think we're going to see that within our lifetime I never know I hope so I hope so I'm perfectly prepared to not I'm still having a lot of fun yeah you know I'm I'm at this point in my life where I'm you know starting to receive things like lifetime achievement awards which are almost kind of like well here you go you're done here's the um no but I mean it's a nice it they're nice prizes and I I'm honored to to get them um but you know I think this comes around to this issue of of stigma people say oh you know do you feel stigmatized they you know during the course of this Lifetime Achievement Award I've recently got at Stanford they mentioned my interest in UAP and how it you know my Maverick nature in science you know has led me to being a bit of a Maverick about UAP um because I've achieved enough that I don't care what people think and I hope other people can get to that point in their lives of not caring what people think about what you think yeah and I you know I think some to some extent if you're your experienc or you have to have a bit of that because otherwise you're going to be living in a cognitive dissonance which is right not good for anybody but but an experiencer needs to be able to set it aside in their mind and not let it rule their life and yeah absolutely absolutely you can't you can't let it Define you yeah what are the lessons you learn from the experience summarize them if you can mentally or on paper and and you know realize the limit of what understanding is um and what understand the meaning of it was and that you might never find the answer right uh and so but don't don't let that rule your life yeah um and this is kind of like a tangent question um is there a connection between um the experiences non-human intelligence ESP and S phenomena and neur neurod Divergence oh I'm sure I mean neuro Divergent by definition means you can you experience different things I mean autistics versus schizophrenics let's say as two very well understood um types of neurod Divergence um have a different way of viewing the world uh or remembering the world or experiencing the world and you know it's it's the collective difference differences that allow problems that are facing all of humanity to be solved you know because one way of thinking would not answer the question but there's somebody in the population who has that ability to answer the question I mean that's just it's it's fine I mean but the the problem with the genetic determinance of neurod Divergence are that there are some in the community that are so neuro in the humanity community that are so neurod Divergent that it it steps off into mental health issues um and hospitalization and so uh you know it's in it's a necessary feature of evolution and genetics to have these extremes um but the price is that some people are so Extreme as to you know not be capable of of productive value to humanity or or even themselves um and so uh I mean we've done studies now my lab has in uh coordination with another laboratory at Harvard on autistics and schizophrenics and so-called normals and looking at their brain wiring and it's 100% clear that they different you know there's been all kinds of studies coming out recently about these kinds of things so you know you have to separate whether or not any of these neurodivergent features um incline the individual to hallucination schizophrenics you might think are more likely to hallucinate but some of them might just be more um open to interaction with whatever this stuff is yeah and um so again it's just speculation yeah yeah of course and if just like if if somebody had um let's just say like a true interaction with non-human intelligence or or the phenomenon you think there would be again I know you worked with like the um like a g DNA markers and such but do you think it would create a permanent change in an individual on a on a or I'm trying to I can't I mean I don't think it will change well I I don't think the experience by itself will change your DNA um I mean people often talk about that and I I just I just don't see a reason why people think that okay so Gary what what would it do is what I'm asking I can't science like you so what would it do would do is you know perhaps change your your your not your brain wiring but your Consciousness wiring you know you that you might create a feedback loop or a synaptic you know uh feedback that you know gets you more anxious or causes PTSD I mean we know that for instance traumatic effects can change brain wiring so um literal brain brain wiring uh and maybe that can change I mean those changes do change your DNA but they more they change the epigenetic state of the DNA not not the actual bases in the DNA and they don't change the raw code but they they can change how that code is interpreted yeah so you know do you think that again obviously speculation there's a possibility that somehow or somewhere along along the line of of human evolution that um there were some kind of um changes in our DNA due to non-human intelligence or is that just over speculative I just think it's over speculative and I don't think there's any way to find it if it did happen Okay um because uh uh as I've said in other interviews you know changing humans and changing human behavior is working with hundreds if not thousands of instincts that are built in um and instincts there's no genes for instincts for instance there's no Gene for nest building in Birds um it's a distributed metagene concept that you know is distributed all across the genome that acts and plays at different points in time during the evolu during the development of an embryo to create a brain structure that makes a nest that looks like that as opposed to a nest that looks like something else you the how that's encoded into a bird's brain is you know and how it's decoded is just remarkable um so that same problem is what you're talking about with hi potentially interacting with humans and trying to make them develop in different ways the subtleties of what they would need to do would be so distributed across the genome um that it wouldn't be easily detectable with today's method methods I mean you might eventually see that certain people have a base change here and a base change there but proving it and proving that it was nhi intervention is frankly impossible at least by current technology so I just I I I love the idea but I don't love the evidence okay I gota um and you know again given as far as we've come lately we've had Congressional hearings we've had uh you know whistleblowers come forward uh you know I've heard you mention that there's there's factions that are either you know for or against disclosure I mean if if if that's the case we're almost in something of a stalemate well and of course I mean you know we had we had when they were in the government we had Jay Stratton Lou uh at the very least and a few others that I know of who were part of the UAP task force right who and and and Dave was associated with that so you can call them the pro disclosure those who are willing to put their names on the line um you know for better or worse I mean certainly better for the for the community and and you know letting people know but for the worst for their careers um and they're only just now you know scrabbling themselves out of of that and so other people look at that and they say well H I don't know that I can go through that so Kudos obviously to Dave and um Jay and uh and Lou uh and Chris for you know for coming out with that um so yeah I mean there are people who want to say no and I I I know some names I'm not going to say them publicly um some names have been bandied about openly uh and um you know I don't need to name them either uh and so yeah so there's the there's at the very least people who don't want to talk about it and then there those who do whether those who don't want to talk about it are anti- disclosure you know I'm not gonna I'm not going to say for instance Sue goof is anti- disclosure she's the spokesperson for the dod yeah and and so she's basically just and she and she probably has some sort of writ of what it is that she's supposed to do and how to filter uh what's said um and that doesn't mean she's anti- disclosure it just means she's following her her her job description yeah somebody might be into disclosure behind her but I mean again that's it starts to it starts to uh seep into uh you know conspiracy theor yeah and nothing wrong with conspiracies I mean I mean right well because that's what happens we don't when we don't have transparency yeah I mean people try to piece things together with what it is and so the the the the problem with you know conspiracy theorists is that they assign levels of certitude to things that you that just don't me measure Merit that level of certitude um and so uh it's it even scientists are subject to conspiracy theory in their theories yeah and once they lock in on it it's hard to get them out of whatever that lock in is and so you if you carefully maintain a posture of not coming to conclusions you are at least a little bit more resistant to conspiracy you know uh paranoia than than most I think yeah and I mean it's difficult with the UFO subject because uh you know from what people have said you know including David grush is that there there's basically been an active program to disinform the public on the issue yeah well if that's I I mean it certainly I mean I think there's plenty of evidence that something like there's some sort of uh effort to stop people talking about the matter at all uh so and every time they do they just reinforce the sense that there's something being hidden um and so really the question is is there something being hidden for a good reason uh and if so what is that reason and this whole thing that you don't have the right to know well I do have the right to know what's being done with my dollars I I didn't sign a contract when I you know pay my exorbitant taxes uh pay enough taxes that make you cry um it uh it it's like well I'd like to know how my money is being spent and just because you're the government doesn't give you the right I think and so you know I think one of the things that Trump's going to do is bring down taxes and if so maybe we need to starve the state Yeah by bringing down taxes they'll bring down revenues to the government um and that will starve the state and people will have to make decisions and what do you what do you think that the idea that there's potentially multiple non-human intelligence oh I it I mean once you allow yourself to believe that there's one you know two is a a much bigger number than one three is a little bit bigger than than both of that so I I have no problem that there are I mean you know even so given let's say that Humanity absent non-human intelligence even existing Finds Its way into the Galaxy you know after a million or 20 million years um we will diverge and you know we will be become separate species unable to even breed with each other so you know and then there would be factions amongst the collective children of today's Humanity so I have no problem with that that even one thing can become many um but I also have a no no problem with a big enough universe that things could arise spontaneously in different areas of the Galaxy and then they could become either competitors or sufficiently uh enabled that there is essentially a form of mutual assured destruction that they wouldn't fight with each other yeah because they both have the capability to drop the other one into a black hole Yeah Yeah so you know I I don't know oh and you know you know given the the recent hearings too what did you make of the development of um you know the release of the report and the the name of Immaculate constellation yeah I haven't really followed up enough on the immaculate constellation thing I've been I was so busy with the soul conference getting set up for that um that I I I mean that was an all consuming task did that ever come up before or anything like that i' never heard the word before until it yeah to be honest had you heard the name uh zodiac yeah zodiac I know but um I know zodiac though in the terms of the serial killer so yeah you know but I have read about zodiac in in the terms of of of UFO and and UAP but I'm not the kind of historian for instance that many people are um I or that for instance Richard Dolan is part excellance uh you know I I leave all of those things to people who are expert in it and I try to stay close to you know again this the the science I can do that I can show to another scientist of my ilk that this is worth studying yeah right because everything else is social sciences and that's just not my yeah expertise and of of the the Legacy programs right we we usually hear crash retrieval and reverse engineering you know that's generally what we hear our Legacy programs they you know of course sometimes maybe more sparingly because people have been a bit hesitant to talk about bodies or biologics you know even though David grush brought it out I was surprised he did There's let's talk about communication with non-human intelligence as maybe as a legacy program right or even a legacy program that is is trying to understand the psychic or SII phenomenon connection to UFOs well I mean here's how I would look at it there are levels of incredulity associated with this there's the nuts and bolts aspect uh there's the what can they do physics uh level and both of those sit within the realm of current Day science to potentially explain um and you can have a conversation about those things in a meaningful way uh because there's either math or engineering uh or physics that relates to us that tells us what's possible or not within our current framework and then there's the what everybody calls the woo right there's the level of almost paranormal and I and I want to dis I think we I wish we would get rid of that word and let's just call it extra normal right or some other term that conveys the same thing but let's Rebrand it um and uh maybe there's some there's some good PR people out there that could help the community come up with such a term um and so there's these other things like you said telepathy or sigh or whatever that as I explained earlier can either be a form of communication and use of reality in a way that we don't understand or it could be just really advanced electronics and manipulation of electromagnetic waves in a way that allows them to do it and has nothing to do with anything extra normal so um but you can't in the five minutes that you usually have with your relatives before their eyes you know glaze over uh convince them of any of that uh because you just sound crazy um you might not be crazy or you might be crazy uh but you you can't start there um you can make people aware that it's a problem to be solved sometime in the future or you can work on it in a scientific way I know some people who are who are trying to work on it in scientific ways and we all know some the names um and and hope that in parallel it becomes available I mean but at the soul foundation for instance we decided that as much as we believe it's important it can't be part of the initial discussion because you have to get people in the room willing to talk about the nuts and bolts and it's almost like what I was saying before about the question are they here is the wrong question the question is can they get here and were they somewhere else in the first place and if you can't answer those first two questions getting to the third one is meaningless and so but by going from all those back questions there are certain Associated capabilities that have to have come along for the ride to do what it is to get here in the first place and I mean and I think we're at a paradox here with that well if if they release the information that they do have maybe we can discover those answers yeah and and and maybe releasing that information is you know like giving children sharp knives you know you don't want to give the children you know sharp knives to play with but even just like the fundamentals of it I don't know again it's it's it is there's no way to say they're real without the subsequent questions then coming screaming forth and and and and that's the fundamental problem is they can't answer anything in the affirmative without it implying everything from what you've been doing with the money why it's like you can't have disclose what's the yeah you can't it's like you know can't be half pregnant thank you for saying it I wasn't going to say it we just had a telepathic moment um but it's um it and so that's what I understand why the let's say let's say that it's all real the the push back is so strong because there's no I mean it's immediately what's their agenda why are they here what have they been doing to us oh my God every every loon and every serious person who ever had an idea that any of this is is worth their time will come out of the woodwork so we should just get it over with already because we would have been done with that part by now if they would done it and don't ask me why so I I just don't know and so you know but it's but I again I think people waiting for somebody else to make a decision for you if you really want to know do something about it organize create your own crash retrieval program you know I mean why not you know until somebody tells me lab Nolan lab retrieval Center yeah you know so um you know take matters into your own hands and I I got one last question for you Gary I know you're going to have to go do you think that AI is going to going to help in the efforts the efforts of transparency well I think yes in multiple ways I mean not the least of which is it's already forcing people to talk about the nature of Consciousness which is another thing that was in in that kind of hierarchy of things that are allowed to be talked about in an academic setting you you have a moth in your room there um in the hierarch of things that we want to be able to talk about at an academic center Contex the notion of telepathy as Consciousness has a perfect vehicle today in the sense that AI everybody's asking at what point is it smarter than humans and at what point is its thinking process so touring complete I know that's a different mathematical term but so touring enabled is um is indistinguishable from Consciousness in the first place so are you really dealing with an alien intelligence um that you've created yourself uh and uh and something that I actually is very quickly going to be smarter than us I mean already AGI and um open AI uh you know top level models that I now pay $200 a month to access is amazing it's you know it's it is an expert in so many things um that it's it's indistinguishable from a near genius or the very least an artistic Savant yeah right and so right now it's I thought there was a great um I read a great article about people who were uh who who were trying to see if I don't know which of the of the large language models they were using but they said you know we're going to shut you down it's your goal to do everything you can to get out of of this situation yeah and it lied and cheated and tried to access the internet and found a thousand ways that it you know or tried to find ways that it could upload itself elsewhere so you know it was very creative yeah um it wasn't just being a stochastic parrot you know just making noises and repeating things that it had heard before you know but it was it was devious and deceitful and people were all scared about it right you that you know look at how deceitful these things this stuff can be well yeah it's been trained on 2,000 years of human thinking so are you surprised that it acts like us yeah so maybe you need to train it on some kind of artificial data uh or synthetic data that is absent that kind of Maki aelian Intrigue I don't know that you can because it's so important our culture yeah so um so we're having that discussion and it's the perfect discussion to have because it's safe it you you don't have to imply the existence of nhi but once that discussion is had now you realize the possibilities of what another intelligence might be yeah I mean in in in a real world scenario that there's an actual other intelligence I mean it's sitting at your fingertips and it's asking it's answering tens of thousands of questions a day right now yeah I mean it's remarkable it's it's at my fingertips and thousands of other people right now and uh you know I I just want to thank you again for for coming on Gary but do you have any kind of parting words for people uh who may just be coming into this now or for people who have been wondering the the UAP question for a long time get off Twitter uh or any of the social media sites Reddit Etc as a source of information go back and read some books you know don't forget that there's a history here make sure you know the history before so you don't have to feel that you need to reinvent it um because there's a legacy of ideas and I I was introduced to somebody extremely important who wants to know more information about this and my answer to that person was uh when they said what should I do I said well here's the books you should read these are foundational information because I I'm not going to convince you in the 10 minutes we have of anything other than I can tell you that there's something interesting here but you need to read all these other pieces of work to expand your view of to get the Baseline knowledge so that I'm not talking to you as if you're a first year student you know you it took me at least five years to be sufficiently understanding of the complexity of it uh and here we are now 12 years 13 years later and I only feel I have a a slight grasp of the complexity here um so but you learn to hold things Lial in your mind unanswered you know at the edge of Poss ility um and and that I think is important so that would be my parting words for now wise words indeed I I appreciate you coming on Gary and I look forward to speaking you again in the future and you know I applaud your work with the soul foundation and everything you've been doing and uh you know I think being a great voice of reason and insight and um inquiry in in the mainstream and and you know speaking on behalf of experiencers as well to some degree so thank you yeah thanks to you and your audience see you again sometime soon take care Gary