FULL HEARING: David Grusch, Ryan Graves, & David Fravor

Transcript

Following members are waved onto the subcommittee for the purpose of participating in today's hearing. Mr. Burchett of Tennessee, Miss Luna Florida, Mr. Gets of Florida, Mr. Burles of Missouri, Mrs.

Okaziocortez of New York, and Mr. Ogles of Tennessee. Without objection, so ordered. For today's subcommittee hearing, both the chair and ranking member will have 10 minutes for opening remarks. We may both be giving some of those minutes uh to other members of our party.

I'm now going to recognize myself for 10 minutes. I'm actually going to try to get out of here in about four and then we'll give it to some of my friends over here. Uh good morning and welcome to the mostly exciting sub the most exciting subcommittee in Congress this week, the subcommittee on national security, the border and foreign affairs for discussion of unidentified anomalous phenomenon. I'd like to thank the brave military pilots and personnel such as w uh such as the witnesses on the panel today for sharing their stories on how they've engaged UAPs which has brought attention to this matter. Curiosity and speculation from all walks of life have generated interest in studying what UAPs are and and what threats they they may pose.

I will say that when I was younger in school, I read a book uh a 1966 book called Flying Saucers, Serious Business. And for a while when I was a little bit younger, I thought it was the most important issue out there. Uh the the lack of a transparency regarding UAPs, which was one of the uh themes of that book. Um uh um uh in any event, it's it's led to interest in studying what UAPs are and what threats they pose. Um the lack of transparency regarding UAPs has fueled wild speculation and debate for decades, eroding public trust in the very institutions that are meant to serve and protect them, as is evidenced by the large number of people we have here.

I also want to point out in 1966, President Gerald Ford claimed to have seen a UFO and in 1969 in Georgia uh Jimmy Carter claimed to have seen a UFO. So this has led Congress to establish entities to examine UAPs. the National Defense Authorization Act of 2022 established the all domain anomaly resolution office or a ARO to conduct or to coordinate efforts across the Department of Defense and other federal agent federal agencies to detect, identify and investigate UAPs. However, ARO's budget remains classified prohibiting meaningful dis oversight from Congress. In addition to ARO's efforts, NASA is leading an independent study on UAPs that will identify how UAP data is gathered from both civilian and government entities that can be analyzed to shed light on the topic.

However, despite these offices being established, there lies a pressing demand for government transparency and accountability that cannot be overlooked. And that's been a problem that's been around for 50 years. The Biden administration handling of the Chinese spy balloon that violated US air space is one example how the government is not prepared for these. The Biden administration's description of events has shown that the government continues not to be forthright. Uh between the Chinese balloon being shot down and two UAPs subsequently shot down following the event earlier this year.

The US government spent $1.5 million in taxpayer dollars on missiles. Yet, we have seen little clarity from the Biden administration. We must demand transparency from the Department of Defense, our intelligence community, and our defense industry on the UAP work. We're going to ask some questions about that today. Congress recognizes the subject of UAPs is multiaceted and requires a careful data-driven approach.

Today we'll seek clarity from these witnesses testimonies or we'll seek clarity as to what can be done to improve reporting for military and civilians and remain committed to objective inquiry. Congress should work to en ensure that knowledge is not driven by fear. Today we are not just debating the existence of UAPs. We are deliberating on the principles that define our republic which is a commitment to transparency and accountability. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today about ways we can improve government efficiency and openness when it comes to UAPs.

I thank each of you for your presence here today and for your dedication to safeguarding the interest of the American people. I look forward to your testimony. Now, I'm going to turn it over for two and a half or three minutes to uh Representative Burchett from Tennessee. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you all for being here. Um I want to thank everybody for making this happen today. And I want to remind everybody this is a nonpartisan issue. This has nothing to do with party politics. I think um the cover up goes a lot deeper than that.

I also want to thank my colleagues uh Representative Anna Paulina Luna sitting beside me here, Jared Mosowitz, my friend across the aisle has an incredible mind and I'm anxious to hear his questions. My buddy Eric Berles and um it's not in my notes here, but Matt Gates. if it hadn't been for Matt Gates, myself, him, and Luna would still be down at Eglund Air Force Base trying to get some answers. He's got an incredible legal mind. Also, uh I know I saw it in the crowd there, George Knapp, my buddy Jeremy Corbell.

Um I've uh they're not witnesses, but they've uh provided some statements on this subject, and I seek unanimous consent to enter those statements into the record. Mr. Chairman, >> without objection. also would like to enter in I understand now that this is unclassified and it's public record but as we all know that's sometimes difficult for the public to get a hold of a report defense intelligence uh reference documents advanced space propulsion based on vacuum space-time metric engineering some light reading for some of our members >> without objection >> thank you um you know Mr. Nap wrote, "Since 1969, the position our military has been that UFOs pose no threat to national security and are not worth worthy of further study." I'd say that's the biggest understatement of the decade.

Um, he also goes on to talk about the dismissive attitude. It's at odds with what was revealed in documents, reports, and internal memos. And Mr. Cabel says u as as he writes these words, the UFO is emerging as a major topic of global importance. Um, I I can state that as a fact out there.

I met a fellow who came in there all the way from Denmark to be here for this this meeting. So, this is huge. This is worldwide. I think we um we suspect what's going on. But I'd also like to thank the members of Congress who supported our efforts to make this hearing happen.

Some have even confided to me that they've had UFO sightings of their own. Those members, of course, some of them wish to remain anonymous, and I'll keep it that way. But also finally, I'd like to thank the these three brave witnesses here. They took an oath. They took an oath to uphold the Constitution of the United States.

And God gam, they're doing it. And we owe them a debt of gratitude. [applause] [applause] Y'all y'all quit clapping. You're cutting in on my time. Just kidding.

These folks, they've got nothing to gain from this. And I think you're going to find out that they've endured quite a few slings and arrows. We need to remember them in our prayers and their families. And I'm thankful them for their honest testimonies. They have done interviews and appeared in documentaries like Accidental Truth to get their stories out there to and and now they are all here to testify under oath for Congress.

I it's been so difficult to get here today. I've said, you know, in the Baptist church, we'd say that the devil's in our way. And um the devil's been in our way through this thing. We've we've run into roadblocks from members from the intelligence community, the Pentagon. I propose legislation to go in the FAA reauthorization that just said if a if an airline pilot uh has a sighting that when he makes that report to the FAA that it would come to Congress, but I was told that the intelligence community did not like that and the bill was the amendment was not even heard in committee.

I think it's time for this country to take back our country. We need to tell the folks at the Pentagon they work for us. God damn it, we don't work for them. And that's exactly the point. This is an issue of government transparency.

We can't trust a government that does not trust its people. We're not bringing little green men or flying saucers into the hearing. Sorry to disappoint about half y'all. We're just going to get to the facts. We're going to uncover the cover up.

And I hope this is just the beginning of many more hearings and more people coming forward about this. And I yield back the remainder of my time. Um I think is it to represent Luna, Mr. Chairman, or is that >> Yeah, we'll we'll call Miss Luna for her statement. The circumstances surrounding UAPs has captivated the intention of the American people for decades.

Ingrained in even the minds of our nation's leaders from Jimmy Carter to Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton to Donald Trump, Marco Rubio to Chuck Schumer, John Radcliffe to National Security Council officials. Yet, from Roswell, New Mexico to the coast of Jacksonville, Florida, the sightings of UAPs have rarely been explained by the people who have firsthand accounts of these situations. This is largely due to the lack of transparency by our own government and the failure of our elected leaders to make good on their promises to release explanations and footage and mountains of overclassified documents that continue to be hidden from the American people. This isn't just how I feel. In fact, the American people largely believe that the government has actively covered up the truth about UAPs.

One poll in particular found that 68% of Americans believe that the government is hiding information about UAPs and not being honest about what we know about them. And from my personal experience, I believe the same thing. Another poll found that nearly half Americans believe that the federal government is doing a very bad or somewhat bad job of dealing with reports of UFO sightings. As Representative Burchett just referenced on the FA bill that just went through, you can tell that that's exactly happening. Considering the thousands of testimonies and videos taken on people's phones and eyewitnesses accounts made by credible witnesses such as doctors, pilots, scientists, and active duty service members, it is unacceptable to continue to gaslight Americans into thinking that this is not happening or that the potential of intelligence uh intelligent life forms exist other than humans.

Even more alarming is the fact that these eyewitnesses are many of times service members and have no assurance that their lives will not be negatively impacted or even harmed by their experiences. In being an active duty service member working on airfield, I've had conversations with many pilots where they were in fear of coming forward for retribution andor being taken off flight status. How do we know this? Because the government has said nothing to assure us otherwise. They have also did nothing to um to calm the concerns of over 20% of Americans who have reported to have seen UFOs or UAPs. We are simply told not to question the government and that the government has it under control.

Today is the first hearing of its kind where we will attempt to get down to the bottom of what is actually happening with UAPs. But we will hear from people who have had personal sightings rather than Pentagon bureaucrats who have always been sent to stonewall our investigations. Just so that the press knows and the people know, we were even denied access to a classified briefing in a skiff prior to this hearing due the amount of hoops that we had to jump through to grant temporary clearance to witness Grush who has knowledge of classified information. It is time to have an open-minded discussion on this topic to hear the evidence and understand the magnitude of what this means not just for our nation but for humanity. Thank you, Chairman.

I yield back the rest of my time. >> Thank you very much. And I'd like to thank you. Thank you and Mr. Burchett for bringing this topic to my attention.

Uh now we'll recognize National Security Subcommittee Ranking Member Garcia for 10 minutes. >> Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to thank first our witnesses for joining us today. Um I want to begin by thanking you all for your service to our country um and for sharing your voices uh today and your courage uh to be here as well. Uh to Mr.

Graves, I particularly grateful to you to spend some time uh that we had um for you to share with Cander um some of your experiences. So, I appreciate that. Uh as well, I do want to thank all the members of our subcommittee today and also those that are here uh and have waved on for the their incredible interest in this issue uh particularly to Congressman Burchett. I know that your leadership um has brought us to this place today and I want to thank you for uh for that as well as everyone else that's been engaged in this work. I also want to thank the oversight staff who I know has been working very hard to ensure uh that today's hearing is serious, that it's transparent, and that it also provides appropriate answers as our oversight body um always demands.

Now, it's really important that we're here in a bipartisan way uh to have this conversation, which really to the heart of it is about national security and key to the subcommittee's core purpose. This is the subcommittee on national security of the oversight committee. Now, our witnesses will testify today that UAPs have posed a serious safety threat, and we must understand this more broadly. We're dealing with real questions that get to the heart of our faith in government. Faith in our institutions, as we all know, is at an all-time low.

Partisanship and alternative facts make it too easy to doubt narrative or into or our institutions. But this hearing will offer the public unique perspectives, building on years of reporting by both federal agencies and the independent media. Now, some of the earliest reporting on this issue was a groundbreaking uh 2017 New York Times report, which we which revealed research, as we know now, on unidentified anomalous phenomena, as many call UFOs, by the Defense Intelligence Agency. Mr. Graves and Commander Favor's experiences with UAPs have also been documented by the public, not just by the New York Times, but CNN and many other national news outlets.

Now, the office of the director of national intelligence has published public reports documenting UAPs. And on June 9th, 2022, NASA announced that the agency is commissioning a study to, of course, examine unidentified anomalous phenomena. Now, the sheer number of reports, whistleblowers, and stories of unidentified anomalous phenomena should raise real questions and warrant investigation and oversight, and that's why we are here today. Now, pilots have reported encounters for years. Now, because of the stigma around reporting these incidents, we still don't have a complete picture of actually what's going on, particularly as your witnesses will testify on the civilian side, and that is a real problem that we have today in the country.

Now, it's very important that we show that Democrats and Republicans in Congress can come together in a bipartisan way to cut through misinformation and to look at the facts in a serious and thoughtful manner. If we are to advance oversight and public disclosure, we must also gain the broad support of the public. We will succeed getting facts out to the public faster if there is a broad public support as part of the process. Now, I understand fully the Department of Defense is hesitant to share information that could also undermine our national security by revealing information on the capabilities of our own aircraft, our sensors, and other sensitive material. At the same time, many people believe that we're withholding information from them, and that is dangerous.

Also, I believe in openness and transparency. That is also the role of Congress. And I want to trust that the American people will be able to weigh the evidence and make up their own minds. Now, we have incidents when sensors, sometimes even multiple types of sensors, detect things that we cannot explain. UAPs, whatever they may be, may pose a serious threat to our military or civilian aircraft, and that must be understood.

Now, my career and training as a longtime and career educator and teacher and researcher tell me that we should never rule anything out. We know that our space of course is vast and undiscovered. I also want to note that Mr. Sean Kirkpatrick, director of the All Domain Anomaly Resolution Office, the component of the DoD office that investigates UAP data, has testified before the Senate this year that his unit has found no evidence of extraterrestrial activity. NASA has also stated they don't have evidence of extraterrestrial life either.

And we've heard this, of course, from some of our government agencies. And we should remind viewers and witnesses, which I think is really important, that we also cannot share classified information in public settings. But questions of course remain that people want to see data and information for themselves. The enormous interest in the hearing today underscores the importance of a fair and open look at the evidence from witnesses who can share their unique perspectives. Now I know I certainly have a lot of questions and I know that all the members of our committee do as well.

We should come to this hearing with an open mind and we should not let our existing ideas restrict us on either side. I hear over and over from many agencies the stigma around reporting and investigating UAPs prevents us from getting real answers. We know that whistleblowers have reported harassment, intimidation or stigma as well and this is not acceptable. If people can't report incidents which would have national security or safety implications, then that also has serious consequences for us. As ranking member of this subcommittee, I know it's my I know my job would be completely impossible if whistleblowers or others feel intimidated to come before this committee.

We can't be afraid of asking questions and we can't be afraid of the truth. I'm proud to say this that this hearing builds upon bipartisan work by members of the House and Senate dating many years back which has sought to increase awareness within the Department of Defense and more and to mandate more of Congress of UAPs. We know the Senate is taking up an amendment to their defense authorization bill which will create a commission with broad declassification authority and we can all should all agree that that is an important step. Members of both parties and senior officials in multiple administrations have taken an interest in this issue and we're proud to carry and build that confidence in the American people. This hearing will also not be the end of this discussion but a new chapter and start to years and years of work that many folks both in both in the public and within government have been working on.

We should encourage more reporting not less on UAPs. The more they we understand the safer we will be. We will hear testimony from witnesses today with a long record of service to the American people and with subject matter expertise. Our witnesses have a unique opportunity to share the perspective, insights um and their experiences with the American people. And I encourage all of my colleagues to engage with these difficult questions with an open mind and to follow the facts on behalf of our country.

I also just want to say more broadly that we should look at this hearing with and believe that everything is on the table as it relates to UAPs. I think we an open mind is absolutely the best. I want to yield the the two and a half minutes the remainder of my time to the representative from Florida, Representative Moscow for an opening statement. He also has been um very much engaged in this issue and I want to thank him uh for his leadership. Congressman U.

>> Thank you, Ranking Member Garcia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank uh Tim Burchett and Ana Paulina Luna for their leadership in pushing uh this hearing forward. I want to thank uh obviously committee staff and their staff working on this on a bipartisan basis uh because many Americans are deeply interested uh in this issue and it it shouldn't take the potential of non-human origin to bring us together.

Uh additionally, I want to thank the witnesses for for coming forward to share your perspectives, your thoughts, your and the sightings of UAPs. Unlike other hearings many times in Congress, you're not here to help a political party, but you're here to share information with the American people. And it's not something that is just going on in this administration. It's something that's uh spanned many administrations. For decades, many Americans have been fascinated by objects mysterious and unexplained.

And it's long past time that they got some answers. The American public has a right to learn about technologies of unknown origins, non-human intelligence, and unexplainable phenomena. Those are not the words of a UFO Twitter account. though. That is a direct quote from Majority Leader Chuck Schumer that the American public has a right to learn about technologies of unknown origins, non-human intelligence, and unexplainable phenomena.

In an interview with Fox News, recent former director of national intelligence John Radcliffe confirmed the US government is aware a lot more sightings of UAPs and that they have not made that information public. I quote, "There are a lot more sightings that have not been made public," Radcliffe said to Fox News. "For me, this hearing is about transparency. We unfortunately live in a time in which many people distrust government and our institutions. An overclassification of information away from the American public or even Congress contributes to today's politics.

The American people have regular questions. What are UAPs? How come the media doesn't report more on them? Are they foreign adversaries? Are they US technology? Are they something else? They ask themselves, "How come when a Russian jet shoots flares at one of our drones, we have perfect pictures and videos to show the American people and the world? But when it comes to UAPs, nothing. Of course, we must always protect our national security to maintain our superiority, like when stealth helicopters were only rumored to exist, but were used in the Osama bin Laden raid in 2011. But we can't allow that to be used as a shield to keep the American people completely in the dark from basic truths. The American people deserve to hear more about special access programs.

Congress has a right to know if there's any unsanctioned weapons development. Satellite imagery that has not been provided to Congress. Congress created the all domain resolution office in the NDAA of 2022. In its initial analysis, there are 171 uncharacterized UAP reports, and this is the words from the report, that appear to have demonstrated unusual flight characteristics or performance capabilities. I believe more information is known about the 171 instances.

It's time for Congress to reinsert ourselves. I call on our military leaders and intelligence officials to release more information to the American people about UAPs. And to our military leaders, if there's nothing to conceal, let Congress go to write Patterson Air Force Base, the Dougway Proving Ground, or even Groom Lake in Nevada. We should have disclosure today. We should have disclosure tomorrow.

The time has come. Thank you, Ranking Member. >> Thank you, Mr. Moscow. And I would yield back now to our chairman.

Thank you. >> Right now, I'd like to introduce our witnesses. Our first witness is Lieutenant Ryan Graves. He's the executive director of Americans for Safe Aerospace. Lieutenant Graves is also a former US Navy F-18 pilot with his own UA UAP experience.

The next witness, David Grush, is a former senior intelligence officer with the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency and was a senior technical adviser for UAP issues. And finally, finally, retired Navy commander D commander David Fraver, squadron leader who worked as a naval aviator for 18 years. Mr. Fraver has his own UAP experience known as the Tik Tok event. I look forward to hearing from all three of you today.

Um, pursuant to committee rule 9G, the witnesses will please stand and raise their right hands. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? So help you God. >> Let the record show that all the witnesses answered in the affirmative. You may be seated. We appreciate you all being here today and look forward to your testimony.

I'll remind the witnesses that we have read your written statements and they will appear in full in the hearing record. Please try to limit your oral statements to five minutes. As a reminder, please press the button on the microphone in front of you so that it's on and the members can hear you. When you begin to speak, the light in front of you will turn green. After four minutes, it'll turn yellow and the red light when that comes on, it uh tells you your five minutes have expired.

I'll now recognize Mr. Graves for five minutes for your opening statement. Thank you, Chairman Gothman, Ranking Member Garcia, distinguished members of the House Oversight Subcommittee on National Security, Representatives Burchett and Luna. My name is Ryan Fobs Graves, and I'm a former F-18 pilot with a decade of service in the US Navy, including two deployments in Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Inherent Resolve. I have experienced Advanced UAP firsthand, and I'm here to voice the concerns of more than 30 commercial air crew and military veterans who have confided their similar encounters with me.

Today, I would like to highlight three critical issues that demand our action. As we convene here, UAP are in our airspace, but they are grossly under reportported. These sightings are not rare or isolated. They are routine. Military air crew and commercial pilots, trained observers whose lives depend on accurate identification, are frequently witnessing these phenomenon.

The stigma attached to UAP is real and powerful and challenges national security. It silences commercial pilots who fear professional repercussions, discourages witnesses, and is only compounded by recent government claims questioning the credibility of eyewitness testimony. Parts of our government are aware of more about UAP than they let on, but excessive classification practices keep crucial information hidden. Since 2021, all UAP videos are classified as secret or above. This level of secrecy not only impedes our understanding but fuels speculation and mistrust.

In 2014, I was an F-18 Fox pilot in the Navy Fighter Attack Squadron 11, the Red Rippers, and I was stationed at NAS Oceanana in Virginia Beach. After upgrades were made to our jet's radar systems, we began detecting unknown objects operating in our airspace. At first, we assumed they were radar errors, but soon we began to correlate the radar tracks with multiple onboard sensors, including infrared systems, eventually through visual ID. During a training mission in warning area Whiskey 72, 10 miles off the coast of Virginia Beach, two F-18 Super Hornets were split by a UAP. The object, described as a dark gray or black cube inside of a clear sphere, came within 50 ft of the lead aircraft and was estimated to be 5 to 15 ft in diameter.

The mission commander terminated the flight immediately and returned base. Our squadron submitted a safety report, but there was no official acknowledgement of the incident and no further mechanism to report the sightings. Soon, these encounters became so frequent that air crew would discuss the risk of UAP as part of their regular pre-flight briefs. Recognizing the need for action and answers, I founded Americans for Safe Aerospace. The organization has since become a haven for UAP witnesses who were previously unspoken due to the absence of a safe intake process.

More than 30 witnesses have come forward and almost 5,000 Americans have joined us in the fight for a transparency at safe aerospace.org. The majority of witnesses are commercial pilots at majority major airlines. Often they are veterans with decades of flying experience. Pilots are reporting UAP at altitudes that appear above them at 40,000 ft potentially in low Earth orbit or in the gray zone below the Karman line. making inexplainable maneuvers like right-hand turns and retrograde orbits or J- hooks.

Sometimes these reports are reoccurring with numerous recent sightings north of Hawaii and in the North Atlantic. Other veterans are also coming forward to us regarding UAP encounters in our airspace and oceans. The most compelling involve observations of UAP by multiple witnesses and sensor systems. I believe these accounts are only scratching the surface and more will share their experiences once it is safe to do so. In closing, I recognize the skepticism surrounding this topic.

If everyone could see the sensor and video data I witnessed, our national conversation would change. I urge us to put aside stigma and address the security and safety issue this topic represents. If UAP are foreign drones, it is an urgent national security problem. If it is something else, it is an issue for science. In either case, unidentified objects are concerned for flight safety.

The American people deserve to know what is happening in our skies. It is long overdue. Thank you, >> Mr. Rush. >> Mr.

Chairman, ranking members in Congressman. Uh, thank you. I'm happy to be here. This is an important issue and I'm grateful for your time. My name is David Charles Grush.

I was an intelligence officer for 14 years in the both in the US Air Force uh both active duty Air National Guard and Reserve at the rank of major and most recently from 2021 to 2025 or excuse me 2023 uh at the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency NGA uh at the GS-15 civilian level which is the military equivalent of a fullird colonel. I was my agency's co-lead in unidentified anomalous phenomena and transmedium object analysis as well as reporting to the UAP task force UAPF uh and eventually once it was established uh the all domain anomaly resolution office arrow. I became a whistleblower through a PPD19 urgent concern filing in uh May 2022 uh with the intelligence community inspector general. Uh following concerning reports from multiple esteemed and credentialed current and former military and intelligence community individuals that the US government is operating with secrecy above congressional oversight uh with regards to UAPs. My testimony is based on information I've been given by individuals with a longstanding track record of legitimacy and service to this country.

Many of whom also have shared compelling evidence in the form of photography, official documentation, and classified oral testimony to myself and many my various colleagues. I have taken every step I can to collaborate this evidence over a period of four years while I was with the UAP task force and do my due diligence on the individual sharing it. Uh this is because of these steps I believe strongly uh in the importance of bringing this information before you. I am driven by a commitment of both uh to truth and transparency rooted in our inherent duty to uphold the United States Constitution and protect the American people. I'm asking Congress to hold our government to this standard and thoroughly investigate these claims.

But as I stand here under oath now, I am speaking to the facts as I've been told them in the US Air Force in my National Reconnaissance Office NRO reserveist capacity. I was a member of the UAP task force from 2019 to 2021. I served at the NRO operations center on the director's briefing staff which included the coordination of the presidential daily brief and supporting variety of contingency operations which I was the reserve intelligence division chief uh backup. In 2019, the UAP task force director asked me to identify all special access programs and controlled access programs also known as SAPS and CAPS. uh we needed to satisfy our congressionallymandated mission and we were direct report at the time to the depths deaf at the time.

Due to my extensive executive level intelligence support duties, I was cleared to literally all uh relevant compartments and in a position of extreme trust both in my military and civilian capacities. Uh I was informed in the course of my official duties of a multi-deade uh UAP crash retrieval and reverse engineering program. Uh to which I was denied access to those additional readons when I uh requested it. I made the decision based on the data I collected to report this information to my superior superiors and multiple inspectors general and in effect becoming a whistleblower. As you know, I've suffered retaliation for my decision.

Uh, but I am hopeful that my actions will ultimately lead uh to a positive outcome of uh increased transparency. Uh, thank you and I'm happy to answer your questions. >> Thank you, uh, Commander Favor Fraver. [clears throat] >> Uh, thank you. Thank you, Mr.

Chairman, Congressman, Congresswoman. Um, I want to first thank you for the invitation to speak to the committee on the UAP topic that has been in the news for the past six years and seems to be continuing to gain momentum. As you know, my name is David Fraver. I'm a retired commander in the United States Navy. In 2004, I was a commanding officer of Strike Fighter Squadron 41, the world famous Black Aces.

We attached to carrier wing 11 stationed on board the USS Nimits and had begun a two-month workup cycle off the coast of California. On this day, we were scheduled for a 2v2 air-to-air training with the USS Princeton as our control. When we launched off new, my wingman was joining up. We were told that the training was going to be suspended and we were doing going to proceed with real world tasking. As we proceeded to the west, the air controller was counting down the range to an object that we were going to and we were unaware of what we were going to see when we arrived.

there uh the controller had told us that these objects uh had been observed for over two weeks coming down from over 80,000 ft rapidly descending to 20,000 ft hanging out for hours and then going straight back up. For those who don't realize above 80,000 ft is space. We arrived at the location at approximately 20,000 ft in a controller called Merge Plot, which means that our radar blip was now in the same resolution cell as the contact. As we looked around, we noticed that we saw some white water off our right side. It's important to note that the weather on this day was as close to perfect as you could ask for off the coast of San Diego.

Clear skies, light winds, calm seas, no white caps from waves. So the white water stood out in a large blue ocean. All four of us, because we were F18F, so we had pilots and Wizo in the back seat, looked down as small, saw a white tic-tac object with a longitudinal axis pointing north, south and moving very abruptly over the water like a pingpong ball. There were no rotors, no rotor wash, or any sign of visible control surfaces like wings. As we started clockwise towards the object, my wizo and I decided to go down and take a closer look with the other aircraft staying in high cover to observe both us and the tic tac.

We proceeded around the circle about 90 degrees from the start of our descent and the object object suddenly shifted its longitudinal axis, aligned it with my aircraft and be to climb. We continued down another 270 degrees nose low where the tic tac or we consumed 270 degrees to where and we went nose low to where the tic tac would have been. Our altitude at this point was about 15,000 ft and the tic tac was about 12,000. As we pulled nose onto the object within about a half mile of it, it rapidly accelerated in front of us and disappeared. Our wingmen roughly 8,000 ft above us lost contact also.

We immediately turned back to see where the white water was at and it was gone also. So, as we started to turn back towards the east, the controller came up and said, "Sir, you're not going to believe this, but that thing is at your CAT point, roughly 60 miles away in less than a minute. You can calculate the speed." We returned to Nimitz. We were taking off our gear. We were talking to one of my crews that was getting ready to launch.

We mentioned it to them and they went out and luckily got the video that you see, that 90 second video. What you don't see is the radar tape that was never released, and we don't know where it's at, of the active jamming that the object put on an APG73 radar. And I can get into modes later if you're interested. What is shocking to us is that the incident was never investigated. None of my crew were ever questioned.

Tapes were never taken. And after a couple days, it turned into a great story with friends. It wasn't until 2009 till Jay Stratton had contacted me to investigate. Unbeknownst to all, he was part of the ATIP program and the Pentagon led by Lu Alzando. Uh there was an unofficial official report that came out that's now on the internet.

Years later, I was contacted by the other pilot, Alex Dietrich, and asked if I'd been contacted, and I said no, but I'm willing to talk. I was contacted by Mr. Alzando and uh we talked for a short period of time and he said we'd be uh in contact. A few weeks after that I was made aware that Lou had left the Pentagon in protest and joined forces with Tom Dong, Chris Melon, Steve Justice and others to form two the stars academy, an organization that pressed the issue with leading industry experts and US government officials. They worked with Leslie Keane who is present today, Rob Blumenthal and Helen Cooper to publish the articles in the New York Times 2017 uh New York Times and it removed the stigma on the topic of UFOs which is why we're here today.

Those articles opened the door for the government and public that cannot be closed. It has led to an interest from our elected officials who are not focused on little green men but figuring out where these craft are, where they from, the technology they possess, how do they operate. It also led to the whistleblower protection act and the NDAA. There are multiple witnesses coming forward to say uh that have firsthand knowledge and and Mr. Gush just covered that.

What concerns me is that there's no oversight from our elected officials on anything associated with our government processing or working on craft. Uh believe not from this world. This issue is not a full public disclosure that could undermine national security, but is about ensuring that our system of checks and balances works across all work done in the government using taxpayer funds. relative to government programs. Even unagnowledged wave programs have some level of oversight by the appropriate committee members in the House and Senate.

And this work that is said to be occurring from whistleblower testimonies should not be exempt. In closing, I would like to say that the tic tac object we engaged in 2004 was far superior to anything that we had on time have today or looking to develop in the next 10 years. If we in fact have programs that possess this technology, it needs to have oversight from those people that the citizens of this great country elected in office to represent what is best for the United States and best for the citizens. I thank you for your time. Thank you very much.

>> Thank you very much. I know it's very difficult for all of you. All you've done in the past to try to illuminate this issue. Call on myself first for some questions. I'm going to start with Mr.

Graves. Um, are your pilots are pilots that you interact with as part of your organization, do you feel adequately trained and briefed on how to handle encounters with UAPs? >> No. Right now, uh, military witnesses to UAP have limited options for reporting UAP. Uh, but more more concerning is that commercial uh, aviation sector has not adapted to the lessons that the military has implemented. Um the military and department of defense has stated that UAP represent a critical aviation safety risk.

Uh we have not seen that that same um that same language being used in the commercial markets. They are not acknowledging this risk. >> Okay. What steps do you think have to be taken to improve a pilot's UAP reporting be it military or commercial? >> Right now we need a system where pilots can report without fear of losing their jobs. uh there is a fear that the stigma associated with this topic is going to lead to professional repercussions either through management or perhaps through their yearly physical check.

So having a secure system reducing the stigma uh and making this available this information available through the public is going to reduce uh the concerns that air crew have. >> Could you just give me a little idea that the degree to which reports in the past are are not made public right now? Well, I don't think there has been a proper reporting system to gather those reports and thus not report them. Uh, so to answer your question, I think there is a der of data due to the fact that the reporting has been limited up to this time. >> Could you tell me why you believe it's kind of to play the devil's advocate, a reason why some of this stuff should not be available to the public? >> There's certainly some national security concerns when we use our advanced sensors and our tactical jets to be able to identify these these objects. However, there's no reason that the objects themselves would be classified.

Uh I would be curious to see how the security classification guideline actually spells out the different uh nuances of how this topic is classified from the from the perspective of UAP, not national security. >> I'll give you a followup on that. Assuming that there are reasons why not all this should be made public, this has been around for a long period of time. Um, can you think of can any of the three of you think of any reason why anything related to UAPs say 15 years and back should not be immediately made public? >> I think one of it is uh acknowledging um a vulnerability both from a collection and I'll just say a you know countermeasure perspective. So it's now we haven't cracked for many years.

Yeah. even say 20 years back. Is there any reason why when you go back that far things shouldn't be made public? >> Uh unless it shows a specific national security vulnerability as it relates uh to a weakness and particular defenses. >> Okay. Mr.

Fraver, the Tik Tok incident that you that with that you were engaged occurred in 2004. What kind of reporting took place after that incident? >> None. We had a standard debrief where the backseaters went down to our carrier intel center and briefed what had happened and that was it. No one else talked to us and I was in the top 20 in the battle group. No one came.

The captain was aware, the admiral was aware. Nothing was done. >> Your commanding officers provide any sort of justification? >> No, because I was the commanding officer of the squadron. So, >> no. >> Was this incident the only UAP event that you encountered while you were a pilot? Yes, it was.

>> Okay. Um, this is for any one of you. Based on based off of each of your experiences and observations, do you believe UAPs pose a potential threat to our national security? >> I'll do it. >> Yes. And here's why.

The the technology that we faced was far superior than anything that we had. And you could put that anywhere. If you if you had one, you captured one, you reverse engineered it, you got it to work, you're talking something that can go into space, go someplace, drop down in a matter of seconds, do whatever it wants, and leave. And there's nothing we can do about it. Nothing.

>> Okay. Either the other you two. >> Well, I would also like to add from commercial aviation and military aviation perspective, we deal with uncertainty in our operating space as a matter of of our protect professional actions. Identifying friend from foe is is very important to us. Uh and so when we have unidentified targets and we continue to ignore those due to a stigma or a fear of what it could be, that's an opening that our adversaries can take advantage of.

>> What what what uh steps should be taken to better understand and respond to UAP encounters in the interest of national security. >> There needs to be a location where this information is centralized for processing. And there needs to be a two-way communication loop so the operators on the front end have a feedback and can can get best practices on how to process information, what to do, uh, and to ensure that they they their reporting is being listened to right now. There is not a lot of back and forth. >> Mr.

Grush, in your complaint to the intelligence community, inspector, you inspector general, you claim that you believe information is being hidden. What kind of information do you think was hidden and do you think it should remain hidden? Yes, I can speak to that very briefly in unclassified manner as you know the prepoundonderance of my complaint was classified to the intelligence communities. Uh both uh material acquisition and exploitation activity um also uh baselining the UAPs but not sharing it with you know intelligence professionals that are actually doing step briefs to pilots uh that that kind of information. Yeah. >> Okay.

Thank you very much. Now we'll go to Mr. Garcia. >> Thank you. Um, again, thank you all for for your service and for testifying today.

Um, want to just uh talk about the UAPs as it relates to what we're seeing in pilots interaction with UAPs particularly. Mr. Graves, one of the I think concerns for members of this committee is this idea that pilots there's no system that actually report UAPs and the stigma around pilots. And so, could you can you just briefly you mentioned that there you working with 30 pilots right now that have had encounters with UAPs. Uh, but you've also I believe um discussed and know of many more pilots.

This is just those that you're currently working with. Is that correct? Can you expand on that? >> Certainly. I'll break that down in two ways. First, when we were first experiencing these objects off the eastern seabboard in the 2014 to 2015 time period, anyone that had upgraded their radar systems were seeing these objects. So, there was a large number of my colleagues uh that were detecting these objects off the eastern seabboard.

They were fur further correlating that information with their other onboard sensors. Uh and many of them also had their own uh eye sightings as well of these objects. Now that was our personal first uh firsthand experience at the time. Since then as I've engaged this topic uh others have reached out to me to share their experiences both uh on the military side as well as a commercial aviation side. On the military aviation side uh veterans that have recently got out have shared their stories and have expressed how the objects we were seeing in 2014 2015 uh continued all the way to 2019 2020 and beyond.

And so it became a generational issue for naval aviators on the eastern seabboard. This was something we are briefing uh to new students. This is something that was included in the notice to airmen to ensure that there was no u uh accidents. Um and now with commercial aviators, they are reaching out because they're having somewhat similar experiences as our military brothers and sisters, but they do not have any reporting system that they can send us to. >> And let me just add to and both to to um Mr.

Fraver uh as well as Mr. Graves, not having the system for for reporting. Um, would you both agree that it's harmful to not just our national security interest, but to understand this phenomenon of what's happening with UAPs? >> I think it's it's uh it's a it's actually it's a travesty that we don't have a system to correlate this and actually investigate, you know. So, if you took the East Coast, you know, there's there's there's coastal radars out there that monitor our air defense identification zone. So out to 200 miles.

Uh they can track these, you know, so when you see them, they could actually go and pull that data and and get maneuvering and and instead of just having the airplanes, there's other data sources out there. And I've talked to other government officials on this. So you need a centrallylo repository that these reports go to. So if you just stuck it in DoD, you wouldn't get anything out of the intelligence committee because they have a tendency not to talk. But if you had a central location where these reports would come in, not just military, but also commercial aviation, because there's a lot of that going on, especially if you talk to anyone that flies from here to Hawaii over the Pacific, they see odd lights.

So, I think you need to develop something that allows you a central point to collect the data in order to investigate. >> Mr. Graves, >> I would concur with everything Mr. Fraver said. Um, I'll continue to say that the commercial pilots that have reached out to me through Americans for Safe Aerospace are doing so because they don't feel there's another way for them to report this safety issue.

And I think one of the clear outcomes of this hearing already um is that there has to be a safe and transparent reporting process for pilots both on the commercial side and the military side to be able to report UAPs in a way that's also transparent but also understands the scope of our of our national security interests uh and what uh may be classified or not. But I think there has to be some sort of system and so that's something that I hope can be an outcome that this committee can um can work on. Um, is there anything else for just for the two of you briefly beyond this reporting system that you think that we can do as a government to encourage and facilitate more civilian reporting? >> We're doing it right now. >> Okay, great. >> I think this hearing is is going to show the American people that their government takes this topic seriously.

>> And how and how about civilians that may not be pilots? What kind of process could be in place for civilians who are not pilots, who may have UAP encounters? Do either of you have any suggestions that could facilitate that? My recommendations would make would be to make that a sens a sensor ccentric operation in order to make it as objective as possible. >> Okay. Sir, Mr. Favor. No, >> I agree with Mr.

Graves on that. >> Okay. Um just just just briefly, I also just want to um note for particularly for the two pilots and have a question for Mr. Gush. One of the things that I found fascinating in our discussion, Mr.

degrees last night as well is that you both described um UAPs and formations and the way they they they are uh observed in space or or in our air and the way that they move is essentially um ways in which current technology or aircraft that we know of are unable to actually function or move. And so will you just for the public record again once once again um just uh briefly um just either describe or note that aircraft that are being witnessed particularly by the 30 folks that you're working with are essentially outside the scope of anything that we know of today and the technology we have today. Mr. Graves, Mr. Fraver.

>> Yes. Uh the objects that are being seen by commercial pilots are performing maneuvers that are unexplainable due to our current understanding of our technology and our capabilities as a country. And that applies for the military as well. >> Mr. Mr.

Mr. Fer, >> yeah, I concur with that. We have nothing that can stop in midair and go the other direction, nor do we have anything that can like in our situation come down from space, hang out for 3 hours, and go back up. >> Thank you. My last question and and sometimes you I know some you have also said some of these answers in the past, but we're trying to get them on the public record as well, which is really important.

Mr. Gres, finally, do you believe that our government is in possession of UAPs? >> Uh, absolutely. based on interviewing uh over 40 witnesses over four years >> and and and where >> I know the exact locations and and those locations were provided to the inspector general and some of which to the intelligence committees. I actually had the people with the firsthand knowledge um provide a protected disclosure to the inspector general. >> Thank you.

And Mr. Chairman, I would just say that I think that these questions are important questions and I look forward to uh being involved in the process to get those answered. I know there'll be a lot of questions from other committee members. So I yield back. >> Thank you.

Thank you. We'll go to Mr. Burchard himself. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, uh, Mr. Garcia. I would like to have you on the my legislation to do just that on the on the reporting. Um, and we'll get together on that. Maybe you can be my co-sponsor on that.

That'd be really cool. Thank you for those great questions. Um, Mr. Graves, again, I'd like to know, um, how do you know that these were not our aircraft? Some of the behaviors that we saw in a working area, we would see these objects uh being at 0.0 Mach. That's zero air speed over certain pieces of the ground.

So, what that means, just like a river, if you throw a bobber in, it's going to float downstream. These objects were staying completely stationary in category 4 hurricane winds. These same objects would then accelerate to supersonic speeds, 1.1, 1.2 to mock and they would do so in very erratic and quick behaviors that we don't I don't have an explanation for. >> Okay. Have you spoken to um commercial and military pilots um that have seen these off of our east coast? >> I have.

>> Okay. Um Mr. favor. I noticed that um [clears throat] um in the tic tac video uh it's tic tac like the candy, not tick tock like the Chinese communist uh >> app. >> That's correct.

>> Yes, sir. I just want to make that because my daughter uh corrected me on that and called me a boomer and said, "Hey, boomer." And I said, "No, baby. It's tic tac like the candy. You're going to have to just look it up." And um but now I would also like to say today is a is a day of many first. It's a um miracle that we're having this this meeting and it's also a miracle that my wife has put up with me for 9 years today.

Today is my anniversary. So, I want to tell my wife happy anniversary and that I love her very much. Um as she likes to say, this nine years have been the best two years of her life. So, thank you. Um Mr.

Favor, what what astonished you the most about the the flight capabilities of these tic tac very briefly. Uh the performance absolute performance it was >> and and you're you're not aware of any other objects that anybody in the world has in this world that has those capabilities? >> No, I think it's far beyond actually our material science that we currently possess. >> Are you aware of any other reconnaissance platforms that have tracked or recorded the tic tacs maneuvers? Maybe the NORAD system or any of the others? >> I am not. >> Okay. Mr.

Grush, thank you for being here, brother. Thank you all very much. Um, have you faced any retaliation or reprivals for any of your testimony or anything on these lines? >> Yeah. Uh, I have to be careful what I say in detail because there is an open uh, whistleblower reprisal investigation on my behalf and I don't want to compromise that investigation by providing anything that may uh, help provide somebody information. But it was very brutal and u very unfortunate some of the tactics they used to um hurt me both professionally and and personally to be quite frank.

Yeah, >> it's very unfortunate as they say when you're over the target that's when they do the most firing at you. Do you have any personal knowledge of people who have been harmed or injured in efforts to cover up or conceal these extraterrestrial technology? >> Yes, >> personally. Have you heard have anyone been murdered that you would think that you know of or have heard of? I guess >> I have to be careful asking that question. I directed people with that knowledge to the appropriate authorities. >> Maybe in a um if we could get it get in a um confidential area skiff.

We could talk about that, but unfortunately um we were denied access to the skiff and that's very unfortunate in this this scenario. Um, Mr. Favor, do you believe that you witnessed an additional object under the water in relation to your encounter? >> I will say we did not see an object. There was something there to cause the white water and when we turned around it was gone. So, there was something there that obviously moved.

>> Okay. It was It was not the same object though that you were you were looking at. Correct. No, we actually joke that the tic tac was communicating with something when we came back and because the white water disappeared. >> Uh we were in in another instance were told about the capabilities of of a jamming during viewing of some when there were some people chasing some of these objects.

Did you experience any of that jamming or interrupting your radar or weapon system? My crew that launched after we landed experienced significant jamming to the APG73 radar, which was what we had on board, which is a mechanically scanned very high-end uh system prior to the APG79. And yes, it did pretty much everything you could do, range, velocity, aspect, and then it spit the lock. And the targeting pod is passive. That's what we're able to get the video on. >> I'm about to run out of time, but um are you aware of any of our enemies that have that capability? >> No.

>> Okay. I would also like to note for the record that um like George Knap breaking Area 51. He's the reason I knew about that and the reason I know about the the tick tax is uh is Leslie Keane um from New York Times article and I would encourage everybody to read that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Yield back to you. No time. >> Very good. Mr. Raskin.

>> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um Mr. Graves. Um, you reported UAP encounters um, during training flights, I think, and have since come forward to warn the Pentagon that, uh, these encounters may be putting pilots at risk.

Um, my first question is, um, you've identified these as taking place on the east coast. Is it just on the east coast where these encounters have been reported? No, since uh the events initially occurred, I've learned that the objects have been detected essentially where uh all operations, Navy operations are being conducted across the world. Uh and that's from uh the all domain anomaly resolutions office reporting. >> All right. Can you describe your experience after you decided to come forward and um go public with your um experience? >> Certainly.

Uh like many others uh in 2017 I saw the New York Times article come out uh as well and for me it was it was special because I recognized the voices on the video. Uh I recognized the video itself. I had seen it when it was taken. I seen it when it was debriefed. Um and so that was kind of shook me because I realized that this problem was still ongoing.

And so I reached out to colleagues back on the east coast uh and realized that this was still a safety risk that they were dealing with that they had essentially hit a wall with how they could move forward on this conversation. It was at that point when I decided to try to move the conversation forward myself. >> Um, are there common characteristics to the UAPs that have been cited by different pilots? And can you describe what the convergence of descriptions is? >> Certainly. Uh, we were primarily seeing dark gray or black cubes inside of a clear sphere. >> I'm sorry, dark gray or black cubes.

>> Yes. Inside of a clear sphere where the apex or tips of the cube were touching the inside of that sphere. And that was primarily what was being reported when we were able to gain a visual tally of these objects. That occurred over almost eight years and as far as I know it's still occurring. >> Um so I take it that you're arguing what we need is real transparency in a reporting system so we can get some clarity on what's going on out there because there are many pilots in your situation.

Um but we should have a a way of developing a s systematic inventory of all of such encounters. Is that right? >> Yes. And I think we need both transparency and the reporting. We have the reporting but we need to make sure that information can be promaggated to commercial aviation as well as the rest of the populace. >> Um Mr.

Gush, what about you? What was your experience after you came forward? >> Well, uh it's only been about two months or so. So I guess my experience has been yeah overwhelming support from uh former colleagues of mine that have you know privately messaged me and and I do appreciate that. Uh but I I do have knowledge of um active planned uh reprisal activity against myself and other colleagues and it's very very upsetting to me. >> Coming from where? uh certain senior leadership at previous agencies I was associated with and that's all I'll say publicly but I can provide more details in a closed environment. >> Okay.

Well, I I hope you understand that um there would be bipartisan rejection of any attempt uh to vilify, demonize or engage in other reprisals against our witnesses and people who are telling the truth from their perspective. Yeah, there were certain colleagues of mine that were brutally administratively attacked and it, you know, actually makes me very upset to as a leader to see that happen to other co-workers and actually superiors of mine over the last three years. >> How do you account for that response? That that seems like a bizarre response. >> Uh I call it administrative terrorism. That's their their quiver, their tool in the toolbox uh to silence people especially, you know, the career government service cares about their career, cares about their clearance, uh their reputation to climb the ladder and when you threaten that uh flow career path, u a lot of people back off.

Um but I'm here to represent those people. So >> um Mr. Fraver, what about you? Um, what has your experience been since you've come forward with your perspective on this? >> Actually, I've been treated very well and the six people that were involved, myself included, all of them have or will be retiring from the military as 05 or 06s and all my friends that are very senior three and four stars. I've talked to them. They they believe they they understand there's a problem.

But no, I've I was actually treated really well. >> And and what is your general interpretation? um of these phenomena. What is your current thinking of trying to make sense of them? >> Well, I'll say, you know, I'm not like a UFO fanatic. It's not it's not me, but I will tell you that what we saw with four sets of eyes over a five minute period. Still, there's nothing.

We have nothing close to it. It was it was amazing to see. I told my buddy I wanted to fly it, but yeah, it's just an incredible technology. >> All right. Uh, Mr.

Chairman, thank you very much. I'll yield back to you. >> Uh, thanks. And Miss Luna, >> Mr. Grush, in speaking to you yesterday, um, I just wanted to follow up on Representative Raskin's questions.

In the last couple of years, have you had incidences that have caused you to be in fear for your life for addressing these issues? >> Yes, personally. >> Okay. Yeah, >> I just want everyone to note that he's coming forward in fear of his life to put in perspective if they were really not scared about this information coming out, why would someone be intimidated like that? Um, to your knowledge, are NHI's working with adversarial foreign governments in either technology exchange programs or back engineering programs? >> I don't have data on that. I'm not sure. >> Have you heard or you had people come forward to present that evidence? not that particular evidence that you just expoused.

>> Okay. On the 19th of April, Dr. Kurpatre, head of Arrow, had said that he did not find any evidence of UAPs. You also stated that you had um in your interview that you had briefed him on information that you were uncovering, but that he did not follow up with you. Were the items that you divulged to him pertinent to national security? >> Yes.

uh him and I had a classified conversation in April 2022 before he took over Arrow in uh July uh 2022 and I provided him some concerns I had. >> Do you know why he might not have following up with you? >> Um unfortunately I cannot read his mind. Um I wish he did. I was I was happy to give sage counsel to him on where to look when he took the the helm of arrow. >> Okay.

And then my last question for you before I move to Mr. Graves is um you received prior approval from the defense department to speak on certain issues. Correct. >> Correct. Through uh Doppser, DoD pre-publication and security review and I just want to remind the public uh they're just looking from a security perspective.

Uh these are my own personal views and opinions uh not the departments. >> Okay. I'm I'm asking that though mainly because I think that there are many people that would like to discredit you. So it does bring a certain amount of credibility to your testimony. I'm required by law to do that as a former intelligence officer or I go to jail for revealing classified information.

>> Yeah, we don't want you to go to jail. Um, my next question would actually be for Mr. Graves. Um, can you please explain to me in detail the event that occurred at Vandenberg Air Force Base? >> Certainly. Uh in the 2003 time frame, uh a large group of Boeing contractors were operating near one of the launch facilities at Vandenberg Air Force Base when they observed a very large 100yard sided uh red square uh approach the base from the ocean and hover at low altitude over one of the launch facilities.

Um this object remained for about 45 seconds or so before darting off over the mountains. Um there was a similar event within 24 hours later in the evening. Uh this was a morning event uh I believe 8:45 in the morning. Later in the evening post sunset uh there were uh reports of other sightings on base including some aggressive behaviors. Uh these objects were approaching some of the security guards at rapid speeds uh before darting off.

Uh and this is information that was received through one of the uh witnesses that have approached me at Americans for Safe Aerospace. Was this documented in any official form whether it was a police blotter? >> Yes, they had official documentation and records from the event that the witness uh held over the years. >> And I'm not going to ask you to do it right now for time reasons, but you would be able to sketch what was witnessed. Correct. And you've have you seen that before on any other equipment andor during your flight time? >> I have not seen what they've described.

Um this object was estimated to be almost the size of a football field. Um and I have not seen anything personally that large. >> Okay. Okay. And then um another question on followup referencing the gimbal video go fast incident.

Um can you just clarify because to our understanding the footage was actually cut off at a certain point but what happens at the end of that video just for those Americans specifically there that are wanting to know about the rest of that footage. >> Certainly uh there was some uncertainty or um instability with the object. It seemed to rock a bit. Uh and that's the last uh last I had seen of the video. Much of the data that I would recommend be analyzed would consist of radar data uh that would pro provide precise kinematics on the object as well as the fleet of objects that were operating nearby.

>> Okay. And followup uh in regards to the reporting procedures that Mr. Garcia had addressed one as well as uh Representative Burchett with the FAA to your understanding pilots that are seeing this commercial airline pilots. Are they receiving um cease and desist letters from corporations for coming forward with information in regards to safety for potential air airline passengers? >> I have been made privy to uh conversations with commercial uh aviators who have received seasoned assist orders. So the American public should know that corporations are putting their own reputations on the basic not the line but ahead of the safety of the American people and I think would you agree with that statement? >> It appears so.

>> Okay. Um I guess this would be my last Oh, I'm out of time. I yield. >> I'll be back. >> Good.

Mr. Masquitz. >> Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh gentlemen, let's talk about the laws of physics for a second.

>> [clears throat] >> Uh, Mr. Graves and and Commander Favor, I heard you talk about speed. When uh those objects broke uh the sound barrier, did they make a sonic boom? >> I was in a jet. You can't hear anything. It's kind of loud in there.

>> Yeah, you you're not able to actually uh personally tell within the vehicle. I will say the objects that we were seeing, they were spherical uh and they were observed up the Mach 2, which is a very in uh non-erodynamic shape. >> What about G forces? Let's talk about G-forces of those vehicles. Could a human survive those G-forces with known technology today? >> No. >> No, not for the acceleration rates that we observed.

>> Okay. What about what they look like? How close did you get? Did you see a seam or a rivet or a section? And what I mean is obviously the jets you're flying have all those things. Did these objects have those? >> Do you want to go right? >> I didn't have I didn't have the detail to be able to tell that. So, we got within a half mile of the tic tac, which people say that's pretty far, but in airplanes that's actually relatively close. Now, it was perfectly white, smooth, no windows.

Although, when we did take the original Fleer video that is out there, when you put it on a big screen, it actually had two little objects that came out of the bottom of it. Um, but other than that, no, no windows, no seams, no nothing. >> Mr. Grush, as a result of your previous government work, have you met with people with direct knowledge or have direct knowledge yourself of non-human origin craft? Yes, I personally interviewed those individuals. >> Mr.

[clears throat] Gush, as a result of your previous government work, have you met with people with direct knowledge or have direct knowledge yourself about ATS, advanced technologies that the US government has? >> Uh based on uh conventional uh advanced tech, I was briefed to uh the preponderance of the defense departments both space and aerospace compartmented programs. Yeah. Do you have knowledge or do you have reason to believe that there are programs in the advanced tech space that are unsanctioned? >> Uh yes, I do. >> Okay. Yeah.

>> And and when you say that they're above congressional oversight, what do you mean? >> Uh complicated question. Uh so there's you know some I would call it abuse here. So congressional oversight of conventional spe special access programs. So I'll use title 10. So DoD as an example, right? So 10 US code section 119 discusses congressional oversight of SAPS discusses the the depth SEC def's ability to wave congressional reporting.

However, the gang of eight is at least supposed to be notified if a you know a waved or wave bigoted unagnowledged SAP is created and that's public law. >> Well, so that how does I mean I don't want to cut you off but how does a program like that get funded? >> I will give you generalities. I can get very specific in a close session. uh but a mis misappropriation of funds and uh >> does that mean that does that mean that there is money in the budget that is said to go to a program but it doesn't and it goes to something else? >> Yes, I have specific knowledge of that. Yep.

>> Do you think US corporations are over overcharging for certain tech they're selling to the US government and that additional money is going to programs? >> Correct. Through something called IRAD. >> Okay. Um satellite imagery. Let's talk about satellite imagery.

We have satellites all over the place. some that we're aware of and many that we're not aware of. Right. We're taking pictures of everything at every point and second. Uh Mr.

Gush, are you aware? Do you have direct knowledge or you talk to people with direct knowledge that there are satellite imagery of these events? Uh that was one of my primary tasks at NGA since we uh process, exploit, and disseminate that kind of information. I've seen multiple cases, some of which to my understanding and of course I left NG in April. So that's my information cutoff date. Uh but I personally um reviewed both uh what we call overhead collection and from other strategic and tactical platforms that were I could not even explain prosaically and I have a degree in physics by the way as well and I had I am aware that you guys have not seen these um reports unfortunately and I don't know why >> is do you have direct knowledge or you had spoken to people with direct knowledge that this imagery applies to crash sites crash crash imagery I can't discuss that in an open session. >> Okay.

>> Uh do you have any information that the US government is involved in a disinformation campaign to deny the existence of certain UAPs? >> I can't go beyond what I've already stated publicly in my News Nation interview uh because it touches other sensitivities. >> Okay. I'll yield the balance of my time um uh back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Miss Fox. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank our witnesses for being here today. Um, m Mr. Gouch, in your sworn testimony, you state that the United States government has retrieved supposedly extraterrestrial spacecraft and other UAP related artifacts.

You go so far as to state that the US is in possession of quote nonhuman spacecraft end quote and that some of these artifacts have circulated with defense contractors. Several other former military and intelligence officials have come forward with similar allegations albeit in non-public settings. However, Dr. Sean Kirkpatre, the director of ARO, previously testified before Congress that there has been, and I quote, no credible evidence thus far of extraterrestrial activity or of quote offworld technology brought to the attention of the office. To your knowledge, is that statement correct? >> It's not accurate.

I believe Dr. Kapatrick um mentioned he had about 30 individuals that have come to Arrow thus far. A few of those individuals have also come to Arrow that I also interviewed and I know what they provided Dr. Kpatrick and and their team. >> Okay.

>> I was able to evaluate. >> Okay. I need to go on. >> Sure. >> But um my understanding that this his statement is accurate.

Uh came from a direct quote and this contradiction is a perfect example of why we need to inject transparency into our government. And for another example, look no further than the pitiful response to the Chinese spy balloon debacle earlier this year. You may remember the mass confusion that ensued when the balloon was first spotted over Montana 4 days after it first entered US airspace over Alaska. The Biden administration's initial inability to address the object grew into a continuous series of embarrassments. After news of the balloon reached the main street me mainstream media, we were assured that the balloon posed no threat to our security.

However, after the balloon was allowed to transit the entire continental United States, fighter jets were scrambled off the coast of South Carolina to shoot it down. This flip-flopping and obuscation caused needless confusion, fear, and panic across the country. It's my hope, Mr. Chairman, that this sort of confusion will not be repeated. We should investigate the extent to which elements of our government possess or do not possess information that is of critical value to the American people.

We owe it to the citizens of this nation to make sure that our government is transparent and accountable. We must make sure that our government provides answers and Congress must do its duty to solicit those answers. With that, Mr. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.

>> Yeah, Mr. Frost. >> Thank you, [clears throat] Mr. Chairman. In 2022, NASA announced that it was commissioning an independent study team to examine UAPs.

The NASA team is comprised of scientists across different fields as well as former astronauts and pilots. In May, the independent study team held that its first public meeting uh which included the perspectives from NASA senior leaders as well as perspectives from the department of defense and intelligence agencies. The NASA study team is also expected to release its first report pretty soon and I think it's safe to say that we all eagerly uh await its results. Um Mr. Graves, how might NASA's research influence the commercial industry regarding safety in UAP? I think NASA has a big role to play as far as commercial aviation safety and it's one of their original charges as an organization.

Uh one of the recommendations that have been put forward is to utilize their existing aviation safety reporting system to serve as a short-term fill and trusted platform for pilots that want to report on UAP. It also has built-in uh analytics capability and is funded by Congress. >> Gotcha. And also, Mr. Grace, are there any other industries that may be influenced by the NASA research on UAPs? And and if so, how so? >> Well, I think there is a a large swath of commercial capabilities that could be brought to bear on this topic from space-based or groundbased sensor systems that are available open source or through uh commercial marketplaces.

And I think NASA's work as they work to identify and highlight specific parameters that can be found, we can take that information and and promulgate this through the public sector so that we can have more open conversation about what we're seeing. Yeah. You know, in 2020, the Department of Defense released several videos of UAPs um including Mr. Freyer's um experience uh US Navy pilots that recorded footage. In 2021, the office of the director of national intelligence released a preliminary report on UAP events.

NASA administrator Bill Nelson stated that NASA would begin to investigate these events. In fact, uh I sit on science space and technology committee and when we were uh doing a hearing with the NASA administrator, Bill Nelson, I asked, you know, why why NASA needed to be fully funded and there were many great reasons, but one of them was actually had to do with UAPs. Um he actually mentioned, you know, is there life out there? I don't know. Um and so either way, u these actions ultimately led NASA to assemble the independent study team that I mentioned earlier. Um also in 2021, Harvard University stood up the Galileo project uh to research and examine the origins of UAP.

So, it seems like both, you know, from NASA and um in the higher education community because of the work that y'all have done and people standing up, you know, I think we're seeing some of that stigma um slowly going away. Mr. uh Freyer, do you believe that military pilots feeling empowered to share their UAP experiences has directly uh impacted the scientific community's research goals on this topic? >> I would say yes. I would say that, you know, starting in 2017 when it actually came out, it took that stigma away. I mean, I've talked to multiple senators who said prior to that, if you'd have mentioned UAP, you'd have been laughed off the hill.

And now you we're sitting here today for a public testimony on what's actually going on. You know, I'm hoping that this curve will be more of an exponential and we'll get more and more transparent to the level that we can. >> Yeah. Yeah. And Yeah.

I mean, and it's important. And I couldn't imagine, you know, I'm not a pilot, but I used to fly gliders um in civil air patrol. >> Huh. Yeah. I got, you know, >> um and so either way, I mean, I couldn't imagine, you know, being being in the glider and seeing something um and then not feeling like I had the agency to talk about it.

Um Mr. Graves, can you discuss the importance of seeking scientists to sit on your advisory board? >> Uh absolutely. I think ultimately this is going to be a scientific problem. Uh and not only that, it's also an engineering problem. Uh I've been working with the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics to help them stand up a UAP integration committee to help integrate their engineering prowess into this problem.

And so yes, very much I think this is an engineering and scientific problem as much as a national security problem. >> And how might Congress help to facilitate partnerships between the scientific community and the UAP focused groups within government? Well, I think one of the things they can do is to have these types of hearings to to communicate to the public that this is a topic of interest. I think that there is a a pseudo market, if you will, of interested capabilities and talent that want to approach this topic. Uh, and we're seeing that start to grow now. So, I think continued conversation, reduction of stigma is going to allow that to flourish and allow answers to help generate themselves.

>> 100%. Well, thank you all for being here and thank you for your work. I think it's important that we keep our top scientific minds focused on this issue um and look for ways to increase collaboration. Thank you so much. I yield back.

>> Mr. Comr. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let me say I want to thank you uh for having this hearing and I want to thank Mr.

Burchett, Miss Luna for leading this hearing. And with that, I yield my five minutes to Mr. Burchett. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm going to direct [clears throat] this, I believe, to um Mr. Grush, but if any of you all feel like you need to jump in, just jump right in. We're good. Um, has the US government become aware of actual evidence of extraterrestrial otherwise unexplained forms of intelligence? And if so, when do you think this first occurred? >> Uh, I like to use the term non-human. I don't like to denote origin.

Keeps the aperture open both scientifically uh uh certainly uh like I've discussed publicly uh previously 1930s. >> Okay. Can you give me the names and titles of the people with direct firsthand knowledge uh and access to some of this crash retrieval some of these crash retrieval programs and maybe which facilities military bases that would the recovered material would be in and I know a lot of Congress talked about we're going to go to Area 51 and you know I mean there's nothing there anymore anyway it's just you know and we move like a glacier as soon as we announce it I'm sure the moving vans will pull up but please Uh, I can't discuss that publicly, but I did provide that information both to the intel committees and the inspector general. >> And we could get that in the skiff if we were allowed to get in a skiff with you. Would that be probably what you would think? >> Sure.

If you had the appropriate accesses. Yeah. >> Uh, what special access programs cover this information. And how is it possible that they have evaded oversight for so long? >> Uh, I do know the names. Once again, I can't discuss that publicly and and how they've evaded oversight.

I in a closed setting I can tell you the specific tradecraftraft use. >> All right. When did when do you think those programs began and who authorized them? >> I do know a lot of that information, but that's something I can't discuss publicly because since >> All right. If any of y'all want to jump in on any of this, you're more than welcome to. Um, what level of security clearance is required to fully access these programs? Well, anybody who has >> and I say that because myself um Representative Gates and Representative Luna were basically turned away at one point at Eglund.

So, please go right ahead. >> Uh certainly difference between member access and say somebody like me, but anybody who has a you know TSSCI clearance and meets the eligibility criteria, the access adjudicative authority should be able to grant you access. >> Mr. Burch, if you'll yield. So just to be put a fine point on that, there's nothing that you're aware of that's above special access program classification.

>> It it's a misnomer that there's anything actually above top secret. Executive order 13526 delineates the classification levels, >> right? And but I I draw a point on that because we can have access to to those programs. And so the notion that we're not being given that access sort of defies our typical muscle memory here in Congress. Thank you, Mr. Burch.

I'll yield back to you. >> Thank you, Mr. Gates. Um along those lines, title 10, you may not know this or not, but title 10 and title 50 authorization, they they seem to say they're inefficient. It so who gets to decide this in your opinion in the past? >> Uh it's a group of career uh senior executive officials.

>> Okay. Are they government officials? >> Both in and out. >> Do what? >> Both in and out of government. And that's about as far as I can go there. >> Yeah.

All right. Well, that's That leads to my next question. Which private corporations are directly involved in this program? How much taxpayer money has been invested in these programs? To your knowledge? I mean, we know we know we we audit the Pentagon every year. And I've been here 5 years and they failed the dad gum thing. Every year they uh lose over a billion dollars a year, we think.

And I was told Department of Defense maybe 60% of their assets are unaccounted for, whatever the heck that means. In the public's sector, you go to jail for that kind of crap. So, tell me. >> Yeah, I know. When I um I'm a dollar off of my DTS travel voucher, I get hammered.

But, uh seems like it doesn't work the other way. >> If you sell over If you sell over $600 worth of stuff on eBay, now you get a call from the IRS. So, please, what corporations? >> Yeah, I don't know the specific metrics towards the end of your question. Uh the specific corporations I did provide uh to the committees in specific divisions and uh I spent 11 and a half hours with both intel committees. Okay.

Has there been any has there been an active US government disinformation campaign to deny the existence of uni unidentified aerial phenomena? And if so, why? >> I can't go beyond what I've already exposed publicly about that. Okay. I've been told to ask you what that what that is and how to get it in the record. >> Which uh >> what have you stated publicly in your interviews for the congressional record? Uh >> yeah, >> if you uh reference my News Nation interview and I talk about a multi-deade, you know, campaign to um disenfranchise public interest basically. >> Yeah.

>> Thank you. >> Apologize, Mr. Chairman. I yield back negative 21 seconds. >> Thank you, M.

Okavia Okaziocortez. >> Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to our witnesses for coming here today. Um I do concur with the ranking member as well as several other members here on this committee that uh this is a committee for whistleblowers and for the protection of whistleblowers as well. So we understand uh what you're putting um on the table here and what you're putting on the line here and we thank you for that.

Uh Mr. Kush, you sat on the unidentified anomalous phenomenon task force created in the 2020 NDAA. Correct? >> Yes. >> Uh there have been some things that uh that have been mentioned here during this hearing that I wanted to pick up on. Um Mr.

Graves, you mentioned specifically during the answers to one of your questions, you named Boeing contractors um being engaged in an incident regarding this red cube about a football um a football fieldwide. I was wondering if you could speak a little bit about the interaction or Mr. Gush, either of you, the interactions between defense contractor companies and any UAP related programs or activities. So I'll just say that the information about uh the contractor himself were provided by a witness and I have no particular detail in that relationship. >> Mr.

Gres, uh >> the kind of general unclass wave tops certainly the contractors you know are the metal benders so to speak the ones actually uh doing specific rep performance on government contracts. >> Are they required um to issue any disclosure regarding UAP sightings or do they engage in any uh reporting around this? uh in terms of the contractors, not that I'm aware of. >> They do not. Okay. Now, when it comes to notification that you had mentioned about um IRA pro IRA programs, we have seen uh defense contractors abuse um their contract before through this committee.

Um I have seen it personally. Um and I have also seen the notification requirements to Congress abused. Um I am wondering one of the loopholes that we see in the law is that there is at least from my vantage point is that depending on what we're seeing is that there are no actual definitions or requirements for notification. Are there >> what methods of notification did you observe? Like when they say they notified Congress, how did they do that? Do you have insight into that? uh for certain IRAD activities and be uh I I can only think of ones conventional in nature. Um sometimes they th uh flow through certain I'll just say SAP programs that have cognizant authority over the air force or something and those are congressionally reported compartments but I read is literally internal to the contractor.

So as long as it's money either profits, private investment, etc. they can do whatever they want. >> To put a finer point on it, when there is a requirement for any agency or company to notifi or any agency to notify Congress, do they contact the chairman of a committee? Do they get them on the phone specifically? Is this through an email to hypothetically a dead email box? >> Uh, a lot of it comes through what they call the PPR, periodic program review process. if it's a you know a SAP or controlled access program equity and then those go to the specific committees whether it be the SAS task. >> Thank you.

Um I apologize I I just my time is limited. Um Mr. Graves, one of your main concerns that the FAA currently does not have an official process to receive reports of UAP from pilots or others. Correct. >> Correct.

>> And um in your experience, what data should the AROW program prioritize for potential collection? we have, you know, location, date, time, but are there other specific activi characteristics that should be included in these reports? >> Certainly. Uh I think that there's two categories that would be important. Uh one would be kinematics and understanding the specifics of how the vehicle or objects are moving. Uh and the second would be a more zoomed out approach of being able to uh look at origin and destination uh after before the incident as well as getting a better contextual understanding of how these uh these objects are interacting with each other. >> Thank you.

Now, because I only have a minute left, I apologize. We only have five minutes today, but um for the record, if you were me, where would you look? Titles, programs, departments, regions, if you could just name anything. Um, and I put that as an open question to the three of you. >> I'd be happy to give you that in a closed environment. I can tell you specifically.

>> Thank you. Um, Commander Fraver, >> I would say, and I've told people that you you have to know where to look, they're not going to divulge it to you because of the classification levels, but if you know where to look and who to talk to, which is exactly Mr. Gush can point you, then you then you have them. >> Okay, Mr. Graves.

>> I was an operator, so I was depending on folks like Mr. Gush to do that homework. >> Okay. Thank you very much. I yield back to the chair.

>> Mr. Begs. Thanks. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.

I thank the witnesses for being here today. I'm over here. >> [laughter] >> Thank you so much for being here. Um I I want to get into uh specifics here and and the reason I'm going to go this way is because you've talked a bit about um what I would call misdirection by um official US government with regard to UAPs, right? And so I'm going to get to that in a second, but last week, White House NYSE spokesman John Kirby stated that UAPs are having an impact on our training ranges and needs to be treated as a legitimate issue. Do you concur with the statements? That's for each of you.

>> Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Okay. Um, now having said that, I'm going to take you to specific instances around the Phoenix Valley because that's where I I live.

In 97 we had the famous Phoenix light case. I don't know if any of you are familiar with that and there were there were two things that went along with that and the explanation was military training range off Luke and the Barry Goldwater range. Do you know anything different other than the official explanation of those lights? >> Only what's in the public vernacular about it. That was outside the scope of my duties. And if we wanted to just my question along with my colleague from New York, Ms.

Accaziocortez, if we wanted to find out more about that, where would we go to find the files and where and who would we address? And are you going to tell me we need to go to a skiff so you can tell us in a skiff? >> I could potentially give you a vector on that. That specific case, I'm not I mean, I'm familiar with it in terms of public, but uh I give you a vector in closed environment. Yeah, >> that would be good. Thank you. So if if it's true that UAPs are having an impact on training ranges and this administration considers it to be a legitimate issue, what steps can Congress take to address training range impacts? And I say that having two very large training ranges in my state and so we'll start with Mr.

Graves and going down the the panel. Some of the initial procedures have been implemented uh such as within the United States Navy that have a range fiber report that gathers information from pilots. Uh I understand that a servicewide reporting mechanism is still pending. However, that would be a great next step not only for gathering information but for showing the troops that is an acceptable topic and reducing the stigma. >> Okay, please all of you continue.

Yeah, as a recipient of a lot of those training range reports, uh sometimes we only get contextual kind of um oral uh reporting. It'd be nice if they attached all sensor data and there's a system in place that can handle multiple classifications of data and that's an issue with the F-35, right? That jet was never built to be an ISR platform and it's a pain in the we'll say butt uh to get that data off. So, yeah. >> Great. Thank you.

Yeah, I would agree with the previous two being a user of those training ranges uh that the data has to be out there. You have to acknowledge that you're seeing them and then you have to collect the data. Right now, you get the report, someone says, "I saw something," but no one collects the radar data to to back it up and do research. >> Okay. Do you believe that the 2019 classification guidelines for UAPs interferes with the federal government's ability to be transparent with the American people? And do you think we need to be more transparent with the American people? >> All of you? Yeah, >> I'll I'll say yes to that.

>> Yeah, I'm familiar with the the at least the UAP task force 2019 uh security classification guide. I think it's fair. Um I did actually help uh author that with the >> Oh, you got you got a bias that way then. [laughter] >> But I will say uh I'll call it a lazy attitude about declassifying videos. I mean, I've seen some of the videos of, you know, the recent shootown and I saw no reason that couldn't have been released as long as they mask, you know, some data.

Uh the American people deserve to see that that imagery and full motion video. >> Uh I would think well in my opinion I will say things are overclassified. I know for a fact the video or the pictures that came out in the 20 I think it was 2020 report that had the stuff off the east coast. They were taken with an iPhone off the east coast. A buddy of mine was one of the senior people there and he said they originally classified a TSSCI.

And my question to him was what's TSSCI about these? They're an iPhone, right? >> Literally off the vacapates. That's not TSSCI. So, they're overclassified and as soon as they do that, they go in a vault and then you all have to look for them. >> Yeah. So, with the overclassification, that may be one way.

Are there other ways that the DoD or intelligence agencies are keeping this information from the American people or even from Congress? >> I think part of that has been uh not encouraging reporting. Uh if the problem is not something that can be measured, it's not something that's going to be fixed. >> Okay. Very good. Well, I'm out of time and I thank you, Mr.

Chairman, and I yield back. >> Uh, first of all, without objection, Representative Nick Langworthy of New York has waved down the subcommittee for purpose of questioning witnesses at today's subcommittee hearing. And then we go to Mr. Burlson. >> Thank you, Mr.

Chairman. Um, appreciate you guys coming out today testifying. Look, I've been here for six months and I'm pretty skeptical. I don't trust anything in this town. And um and so I and I think that's because I'm from Missouri.

You've got to show me, right? Um with that being said, um there's been a lot of things that have been said um in in the public, uh Mr. Grush, and and so I want to get down to if we can some specifics, right? So um at one point you had said that there there might there has been harmful activity or aggressive activity. Has any of the activity um been aggressive been um hostile in your reports? Uh I know of multiple colleagues of mine that got physically injured and uh the activity and I got by by UAPs or by by people within the the federal government >> both. >> Okay. So there has been activity by by alien or non nonhuman technology andor beings that has caused harm to humans.

uh I can't get into the specifics in an open environment but at least the activity that I personally witnessed and I have to be very careful here uh because you don't you know they tell you never to acknowledge tradecraftraft right so what I personally witnessed myself and my wife was very disturbing okay um one of my constituents actually sent this next question and I figured I'd ask it since I had the same thought you've said that US in has intact spa spacecraft. You said that the government has alien bodies or alien species. Have you seen Have you seen the spacecraft? >> I have to be careful to describe what I've seen firsthand and not in this environment, but I I could answer that question behind behind closed doors. >> And have you seen any of the bodies? >> That's something I've I've not witnessed myself. >> Okay.

And so with that being said, you know, the other other statement that has been made that was intriguing to me because and it's intriguing because my my view has been that we are billions of light years away from any any other system. And the concept that an alien species that's technologically advanced enough to travel billions of light years gets here and somehow is incompetent enough to not survive Earth or crashes is is something that I find a little bit far-fetched. And with that being said, you have mentioned that there's interdimensional potential. Could you expound on that? >> Oh, yeah. answer your first question and you know I'm here as a fact witness and expert but I I will give you a a theoretical framework at least to work off to kind of expouse uh crashes uh regardless of uh you know your level of sentience right you know planes crash cars crash any number of sorties what however high a small percentage are going to end in you know mission failure if you will as we say in the in the air force uh and then in terms of uh multi-dimensionality that kind of thing the the framework uh that I'm familiar with for example is something called the holographic principle uh both uh it's it deres itself from general relativity and quantum mechanics and that is if you want to imagine uh a 3D object such as yourself casting a shadow onto a 2D surface uh that's the holographic principle so you can be projected quasi projected from higher dimensional space to lower dimensional it's a scientific trope that you can actually cross literally as far as I understand but there's probably guys with PhDs that we probably argue about that >> but you have not seen any documentation that that's what's occurring.

>> Uh only a theoretical framework discussion. Yes. >> Okay. Um okay aams razor my is that this these aircraft um have they been identified that they are being produced by by domestic um you know military um contractors? Has there any evidence that that's what's being recovered? uh not to my knowledge plus the recoveries predate a lot of our advanced programs that I previously am witting of. So, um would it be safe to say that there could be a scenario today where you have um an aircraft that crashes and because it's been involved in one program from one federal agency and the but the but the agency that retrieves it does is not aware of that program and to them it appears alien in origin.

>> I mean, that's a hypothetical situation. I'm not aware of any uh historical situation that would match that that you described. So, >> you're not aware. It has not happened that you're aware of >> that I'm aware of. Um, >> thank you, Mr.

Chairman. I yel back. >> Several months ago, my office received a protected disclosure from Eglund Air Force Base indicating that there was a UAP incident that required my attention. I sought a briefing regarding that episode and brought with me Congressman Burchett and Congresswoman Luna. We asked to see any of the evidence that had been taken by flight crew in this endeavor and to observe any radar signature as long as as well as to meet with the flight crew.

We were not afforded access to all of the flight crew and initially we were not afforded access to images and to radar. Thereafter we had a bit of a discussion about how authorities flow in the United States of America and we did see the image and we did meet with one member of the flight crew who took the image. The image was of something that I am not able to attach to any human capability either from the United States or from any of our adversaries. and I'm somewhat informed on the matter, having served on the Armed Services Committee for seven years, having served on the committee that oversees DARPA and Advanced Technologies for several years. Um, when we spoke with the flight crew and when he showed us the photo that he' taken, I asked why the video wasn't engaged, why we didn't have a fleer system that worked.

Here's what he said. They were out on a test mission that day over the Gulf of Mexico. And when you're on a test mission, you're supposed to have clear airspace, not supposed to be anything that shows up. And they saw a sequence of four craft in a clear diamond formation for which there is uh a radar sequence that I and I alone have observed in the United States Congress. One of the pilots goes to check out that diamond formation and sees a large floating what I can only describe as an orb.

Again, like I said, not of any human capability that I'm that I'm aware of. And when he approached, he said that his radar went down. He said that his fleer system malfunctioned and that he had to manually take this image um from one of the lenses and it was not automatic automated uh in collection as you would typically see in a test mission. So, uh I guess I'll start with Commander Fraver. what in how should we think about the fact that this craft that was approached by our pilot uh had the capability of disarming a number of the sensor and collection systems on that craft.

Well, I think this goes to that national security side and you can go back through history of things showing up at certain areas and disabling our capabilities which is disheartening and for us I mean like I said it it completely disabled the radar and the aircraft when it tried to do it and the only way we could see it is passively which is how he got that image. So I think that's a that's a concern on what are these doing? Not only how do they operate but their capabilities inside to do things like this >> and and how should we think about four craft moving in a very clear formation equidistant from one another um in a diamond I in all of the phenomenon perhaps Mr. Grave that you've analyzed um have we ever seen multiple craft in a in a single formation? I have one particular case and that was uh during the gimbal incident. Um the recording on the AT fleer system shows a single object that rotates. Um you hear the pilots refer to a a fleet of objects that is not visible on the fleer system and and that was something that I witnessed during the debrief as part of the radar data on the situational awareness page.

I would like to add however congressman uh there's a small uh small bit of uh uh anger I would say I would feel that those pilots are still uh facing that difficulty in reporting this topic and they don't have the tools to be able to mitigate this issue. It just goes to show how serious this is and why this is such an important issue for our pilots and for our nation. It was stated explicitly to me by these test pilots that if you have a UAP experience, the best thing you can do for your career is forget it and not tell anyone because any type of reporting either above the surface or below the surface uh does have a perceived consequence to these people and that is a culture we must change if we want to get to the truth. Mr. Chairman, I I would observe that perhaps as we as we move forward from this hearing, there are some obvious next steps.

Every person watching this knows that we need to meet with Mr. Grush in a secure compartmentalized facility so that we can get wholesome answers that do not put him in jeopardy and that and that give us the information we need. Second, I would suggest that the radar images from um that were collected of this formation of craft out of Eglund Air Force Base and specifically the actual image taken by the actual flight crew that we can actually validate um be provided to the committee, subpoenaed if necessary um so that we're able to track how to get this type of reporting and analysis done in a more wholesome way. That would be my recommendation humbly as a guest here of the fine oversight committee. I yield back.

>> Miss Mace. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and good morning to our witnesses who are testifying today. I want to thank each of you for being here to discuss a topic of grave importance to our national security. Earlier this year, a Chinese spy balloon was shot down off the coast of my home state of South Carolina.

Since the Roswell incident in 1947, many Americans have wondered about the dangers of unknown objects crisscrossing our skies. whether these are UAPs or weather phen phenomena, advanced technology from American allied or enemy forces or something more out of this world. So my first question, I have several questions and I'll I if we could just be quick on these first two, I'm going to ask each of you the same question um and then I'll get to each of you individually. Uh the first one, when you reported your experiences with a UAP, did any of you face any repercussions with your superiors? Yes or no? >> No. No, >> I've actually never seen anything personally, believe it or not.

So, >> all right. Um, and then do do you believe there's an active disinformation campaign within our government to deny existence of UAPs? Yes or no? >> I don't have an answer to that. >> As pre previously stated publicly, yes. >> I think previously with like Project Blue Book, yes. But currently, I don't speak for the United States government.

>> Okay. Thank you. Um, I have a few questions for Mr. Graves. Um, what percentage of UAP sightings in your belief go unreported by our pilots? >> This is an approximation based off of my personal experience speaking with a number of pilots, but I would estimate we're somewhere near 5% reporting perhaps.

>> So like 95% basically don't report seeing UAPs. >> That's just my personal estimate. >> Um, in the incident off Virginia Beach, do you believe the Navy took the danger to your aircraft seriously after it was reported? >> Absolutely. >> Um, a few questions for Mr. Favor.

As an expert naval aviator, have you ever seen an object that looked and moved like the tic-tac UAP? >> No. >> Did the tic-tac UAP move in such a way that defied the laws of physics? >> The way we understand them, yes. >> Many dismiss UAP reports as classified weapons testing by our own government. But in your experience as a pilot, does our government typically test advanced weapon systems right next to multi-million dollar jets without informing our pilots? >> No, we have test ranges for that. >> It took over 15 years for your encounter with the tic tac to be declassified.

Do you feel there was a good reason to prevent lawmakers from having access to this footage? >> No, I just think it was ignored when it happened and it just sat somewhere in a file, never got reported. in a drawer. It happens a lot up here. Shocker. Um, Mr.

Gretch, a couple of questions for you too, sir, this morning. Um, what percentage of UAPs do you feel are adequately investigated by the US government of the 5% that are reported? Um, >> I can only speak for uh my personal leadership over at NGA. I tried to look at every report that came through that I could triage. So, >> do you believe that officials at the highest levels of our national security apparatus have unlawfully withheld information from Congress and subverted uh our oversight authority? >> There are certain elected leaders that had more information that I'm not sure what they've shared with certain gang of eight [clears throat] members or etc., but uh certainly uh I would not be surprised. >> Okay.

You've stated that the government is in possession of potentially nonhuman spacecraft. Based on your experience and extensive conversations with experts, do you believe our government has made contact with intelligent extraterrestrials? >> Something I can't discuss in public setting. [snorts] >> Um, okay. I can't ask when you think this occurred. [laughter] Um, if you believe we have crashed craft, uh, stated earlier, do we have the bodies of the pilots who piloted this craft? As I've stated publicly already in my News Nation interview, uh, biologics came with some of these recoveries.

Yeah. >> Um, were they, I guess, human or non-human biologics? >> Non-human. And that was the assessment of people uh with direct knowledge on the program I talked to that are currently still on the program. >> And was this documentary evidence, video, photos, eyewitness? Like how would that be determined? the specific documentation I would have to talk to you in a skiff about. >> Gotcha.

Um, okay. So, and you may or may not be able to answer my last question and maybe we get into a skiff at the next hearing that we have, but who in the government either, what agency, sub agency, what contractors, who should be called into the next hearing about UAPs, either in a public setting or even in a private setting. And and you probably can't name names, but what agencies, organizations, contractors, etc. do we need to call in to get these questions answered? Whether it's about funding, what programs are happening, and what's out there? >> I can give you a specific cooperative and hostile witness list of specific individuals uh that were in those >> and and how soon can we get that list? >> I'm happy to provide that to you after the hearing. >> Super.

Thank you. And I yield back. [clears throat] >> Okay. Now, we have Mr. Langworthy's here.

Okay, >> thank you very much. Uh, I'd like to thank uh all of the witnesses for being here today uh to discuss this very unique topic. Uh, and I'd like to jump right into my questions if you don't mind. Uh, Commander Fraver, can you briefly describe your background? Yeah, I was a enlisted Marine, Naval Academy graduate, Navy, flew for 18 years, got a masters from University of Houston. Uh, and I've worked in the private sector for the last what now 19 16 years, 17 years.

I do a lot of defense work, so really gold-plated credentials. Uh, Commander Fraver, have uh, we have all seen the floating tic tac video uh, that you engaged with on uh, November 14th, 2004. Can you briefly talk about why you were off the coast of San Diego that day? >> Yeah, we were at a workup with all the battle groups. So, we integrate the ships with the carrier, the airwing with the carrier, and we start working. So, we were doing an air defense to hone not only our skills, but those of the USS Princeton when they had been tracking them for two weeks.

The problem was that there was never manned aircraft airborne when they were tracking them. And this was the first day and unfortunately we were the ones airborne and went and saw it. >> Do you remember the weather that day? Was it cloudy or windy or anything out of the ordinary on the Pacific coast? >> It was actually if if you familiar with San Diego, it was a perfect day. Light winds, no white caps, clear skies, not a cloud. It was for flying.

It was the best. >> Now, is it true that you saw in your words a 40 foot flying tick tock shaped object? >> That's correct. or for some people that can't know what a tic tac is. It's a giant flying propane tank. >> Fair enough.

Did this object come up on radar or interfere with your radar or the USS Princeton? >> The Princeton tracked it. The Nimtts tracked it. The E2 tracked it. We never saw it on our radars. Our fire control radars never picked it up.

The other airplane that took the video did get it on a radar. As soon as it tried to lock it, it jammed the radar, spit the lock, and he he rapidly switched over to the targeting pod, which he can do in the uh in the F-18. From what you saw that day and what you've seen on video, did you see any source of propulsion from the flying object, including on any potential thermal scans from your aircraft? >> No, there's none. There's no IR plume coming out. Uh, and Chad, who took the video, went through all the EO, which is black and white TV, and the IR modes, and there's no visual signs of propulsion.

It's just sitting in space at 20,000 ft. In >> in your career, have you ever seen a propulsion system that creates no thermal exhaust? >> No. Can you describe how the aircraft maneuvered? >> Uh, abruptly. Uh, very determinant. It knew exactly what it was doing.

It was aware of our presence and it had acceleration rates. I mean, it went from zero to matching our speed in no time at all. >> Now, if the fastest plane on Earth was trying to do these maneuvers that you saw, would it be capable of doing that? >> No. Not even close. >> And just to confirm, this object had no wings.

Correct. >> No wings. >> Now, was the aircraft that you were flying, was it armed? >> No. Never felt threatened at all. >> If if the aircraft was armed, do you believe that your aircraft or any aircraft in possession of the United States could have shot the tic-tac down? >> I'd say no.

Just on the performance, it would just left in a in a split second. It looks like that we have a problem here that needs further investigation. [laughter] Yes. In your belief, is this this flying tic tac I mean is this is it capable of being the product of any other nation on the earth? >> No. I actually I said like I said earlier I think it defies current material science and the ability to develop that much propulsion.

And I I know there's been some physicists of them calculations which is beyond anything that we have. >> Well, either the United States has an adversary here in this world that we don't know or we really have some serious investigations to do. I I really appreciate you being here. Um is there anything else about the November 14th, 2004 incident that you think is important for this committee to know that you haven't been asked here today? No, I I I you know, it's it's been said it's probably the most credible UFO sighting in history based on all the sensors that were tracking it. And then for us to get visual and to go against the naysayers that it's something on the screen or whatever, I mean, there's four sets of human eyeballs.

We're all very credible. Of the six of us that were involved in the thing, including the video, every one of us is going to do 20 plus years in the military in very responsible positions. So, I'd say the world needs to know that this it's not a joke. Now, thank you very much for your testimony here today for all of you and I yield back, Mr. Chairman.

>> Mr. Ogles, >> thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, and thank you all for being here and the courage it took to come forward and and again the sacrifice that each of you have made. Um, I serve on the national security subcommittee for the financial services committee.

So, I really want to stay in the national security lane if I may. Um so when we think about traditional adversaries and uh both us towards them and them towards us, you know, we probe uh their capabilities. We look for weaknesses uh and we we collect that data, that reconnaissance for in the in the event we need it in the future. Um for each of you, yes or no question. Based off of your own experience or the data that you've been privy to, is there any indication that these UAPs could be uh essentially uh collecting reconnaissance information? Mr.

Graves? >> Yes, Mr. Grush. >> Fair assessment. Yeah, >> Mr. Fraver.

>> Very possible. >> Again, in the national security vein, uh is it possible that these UIPs would be probing our capabilities? Yes or no, Mr. Graves? >> Yes. >> Rush? >> Yes. >> Raver? >> Definitely.

Is it possible that these UAPs are testing for vulnerabilities in our current systems? >> Yes. >> Yes, possible. >> Do you feel based off of your experience and the information that you've been privy to that these UAP UAPs uh provide uh an existential threat to the national security of the United States? Mr. Graves? >> Potentially. >> Yes, sir.

Potentially. >> Uh same answer. Potentially. Yeah, I would say definitely. Potentially, >> Mr.

Graves and Fraver. You know, in the event that your encounters have become hostile, would you have would have would you have had the capability to defend yourself, your crew, your aircraft? >> Absolutely not, >> sir. >> No. >> Is based off of the information that you've been privy to, is there any indication that these UAPs are interested in our nuclear technology and capabilities? >> Yes. >> By external observation, sure.

That could be a fair assessment. Yes. >> Is there any indication the Department of Energy is involved in UAP data collection and housing? >> I don't have an answer. >> I can't confirm or deny that in a public setting. >> And could you do it in a in a secure setting? >> Yes, >> Mr.

Fra. >> No, I don't know. >> Mr. Mr. Chairman, um, you know, I think I'm the last member to go, but there clearly is a threat to the national security of the United States of America.

As members of Congress, we have a responsibility to maintain oversight and be aware of these activities so that if appropriate, we take action. I would encourage the chairman to demand that we have any and all, but in particular, Mr. brush uh talk to us in a skiff and if that access is denied, I will personally volunteer to uh initiate the homeman rule against any personnel or any uh program or any agency that denies AC access to Congress. Mr. Chairman, with that I will yield the remainder of my time to my fellow colleague from Tennessee, Mr.

Burchett. >> Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. struggles for the great questions, brother.

Um, Mr. Grush, I might have asked this before, but I want to make sure. Do you have any personal knowledge of someone who's possibly been injured working on legacy UAP reverse engineering? >> Yes. >> Okay. Um, how were they injured? Was it is it something like a radioactive type situation or something we didn't understand? And I've heard people talk about Havana syndrome type in incidences.

What what was your recollection of that? >> I can't get into specifics, but you could imagine assessing an an unknown unknown. Uh there's a lot of uh potentialities you can't fully prepare for. >> How do you think we ought to handle UAP whistleblower complaints like yours in the in the future? >> Yeah, there was some issue with mine. So, you know, PPD19 process, it goes to the intel committees, uh, either through PPD19 or ICD120. There's not a good way for the intelligence community inspector general to provide that to other committees.

And I asked my information to be sent to the House and Senate Armed Services Committee because there are Title 10 equities at play, but there was no smooth process to do so. Yeah, >> that's a trash can. Um, are you aware of any individuals that are participating in reverse engineering programs for non-aterrestrial craft? >> Personally, yes. Mhm. >> Uh, you know any that would be willing to testify if there were protections for them? >> Certainly closed door and assurances uh that breaking their NDA they're not going to get um administratively punished for.

So yeah, >> I yield, Mr. Chairman. >> Thank you. Um, we're going to do something a little bit out of the ordinary here. We're going to give three people a chance at an additional three minutes.

So, Mr. Burchetta, do you want to keep going? >> Why don't you come back to me, Mr. Chairman? >> Miss Luna, if she's on is she on that list? >> I'm on. >> Sure. >> Uh, chairman, I'd like to submit for the record an article by NewsNation, and it follows Mr.

Gush's full interview for the record. >> Without objection. >> Thank you. Um, [clears throat] Mr. Grush, why is it that you uh refer to the phenomenon as non-human intelligence? Why deviate from the basis of extraterrestrial life? >> Uh, I think the phenomenon uh is uh very complex and I like to leave an open mind analytically to specific origin.

When you say specific origin, are you referring Can you elaborate on that for those that might >> If it's a traditional extraterrestrial origin or something else that we don't quite understand uh from either biological or astrophysics perspective. Yeah. I just like to keep an open mind on what it could be. Yeah. >> Okay.

And uh referring to your News Nation interview, you had referenced uh specific treaties between governments. Um, article 3 of the nuclear arms treaty with Russia identifies UAPs. It specifically mentions them. To your knowledge, are there safety measures in place with foreign governments or other superpowers to avoid an escal escalatory situation in the event that a UAP um malev malevolent event occurs? >> Uh yeah, you're referring to actual uh a public treaty in the UN register. Um it's funny you mentioned that.

Yeah, the agreement on measures to reduce the risk of outbreak of nuclear war signed in 1971. uh unclassified treaty publicly available. And if you cite the George Washington uh University National Security Archives, you will find uh the declassified in 2013 specific provisions in the specific uh red line message traffic with the specific codes pursuant to article three and article uh also situation two which is in the the previously classified NSA archive. what I would recommend and I I tried to get access but uh I got a wall of silence at the White House uh was those specific incidents when those um message traffic was used. I think uh some scholarship on that would open the door to a further investigation uh using those publicly available information.

>> Thank you. And then my last question with 51 seconds remaining. You mentioned white collar crimes potentially being um taking place in regards to a coverup. Can you please elaborate? >> I have concerns based on the interviews I conducted under my official duties of uh potential violations of the federal acquisition regulations, the FAR. >> Thank you very much, chairman.

I yield the remainder of my time. >> Okay, we'll go to Mr. Rasin for three minutes. >> Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Um, and I thank the witnesses for their uh, endurance and service today. Um, Mr. Fraver, you've described your episode in detail now and you call it uh, the most credible UFI UFO sighting in history. Um, but I wonder [clears throat] was this the first time that you encountered a UFO or a UAP in 2004? >> Yes. And what was your general attitude or perspective on the UFO discussion before that happened? >> I I never felt that we were alone with all the planets out there, but I wasn't a UFO person.

I wasn't I wasn't watching History Channel and MUN and all that. >> And um have you had experiences or encounters since that happened? >> No. Um, and so have you formed any general conclusions about what you think you experienced then? >> Yes, I think what we experienced was, like I said, well beyond the material science and the capabilities that we had at the time that we have currently or that we're going to have in the next 10 to 20 years. >> Very good. Mr.

Gh, um, you've been able to answer in great detail on certain questions and then other things you say you're not able uh, to respond to. Can you just explain where you're drawing the line? Uh, what's the basis for that? >> Yeah, based on my Doppser security review uh, and what they've determined that is unclassified. >> I see. So, you're answering any questions that just call upon your knowledge of unclassified questions, but anything that relates to classified matters. you're not commenting on in this context >> in an open session but happy to participate in a closed session at the right level.

Yeah. >> Okay. Um and Mr. Graves, you said that there dozens of fellow pilots, military pilots. Are there also commercial pilots who've uh encountered the same the same kind of sightings that you described before? >> They are similar pilots.

Commercial pilots have uh less range and less sensors to be able to reach out and look for objects over wide swats of airspace. Uh and so pilots are see them, commercial pilots are seeing them, and they're typically closer and the range of what they're seeing is is pretty large. >> What is the most vivid concrete sighting with the naked eye um of the objects that you described before, the cube like objects? Certainly, I think the most uh vivid sighting of that would have been near a near midair that we had at the entrance to our working area. One of these objects was uh completely stationary at the exact entrance uh to our working areas. Uh not only geographically but also at altitude.

So it was right where all the jets are going essentially on the eastern seabboard. The two aircraft flew within about 50 ft of the object and that was a very close visual sighting. >> And you were in one of the aircraft? >> I was not. I was there when the pilot landed. uh he canceled the mission after and I was there.

He was in the ready room with all his gear on with his uh mouth open. Uh and I asked him what the problem was and he said he almost hit one of those darn things. >> He said he was 50 ft away from it. >> Yes, sir. >> And his description of the object was consistent with the description you gave us before.

>> A dark gray or a black cube inside of a clear sphere. >> Inside of a clear sphere. >> Yes. >> Um and with no self-evident propulsion system, >> no wings. uh no IR energy coming off of the vehicle um nothing tethering it to the ground and that was that was primarily what we were experiencing out there >> I'm over time thank you very much for your service and I yield back to Mr.

Chairman >> very good Mr. Burch >> thank you Mr. Chairman this is for all three of y'all starting with Mr. Why did you come forward on this issue? >> I came forward because I felt that my colleagues did not have a way to mitigate this safety threat and I wanted to help them. I was trained as an aviation safety officer by the Navy and this seemed it just it just felt right.

I felt like I had to help the folks that were still flying and dealing with this. >> Mr. Gar, >> purely a sense of duty. Um I first swore an oath when I was a cadet 18 years ago and I I still uphold that even out of the uniform. Commander, >> I was pestered uh by a friend and I asked why and he said, "You're the one person that they can't discredit and you'll add credibility to the New York Times article." And so after about six times, I said, "Okay, >> honest." >> Yeah.

Um this town isn't u made unfortunately by people like y'all. We thank y'all. I do want to also thank the people in the audience and the people that are watching this that can't be people all over the world that have kept this issue alive. You've endured criticism and derogatory remarks and we're trying to get to the bottom of it. And so, God bless y'all.

Thank y'all so much. We really appreciate you guys and gals. Um, [applause] that's why we need term limits. Y'all keep clapping. Us politicians just keep talking.

So, um, let me ask y'all, how can with the public contribute to UAP reporting and what avenues you think are available to the public to report these sightings? >> Well, right now, I don't think there is a lot of public options for the every man to be able to report on this. Uh, I think even for professionals that have sensor data that are seeing these on a regular basis, they're still hesitant to come forward. uh and so for the general public I think uh encouraging the conversations that we're having today looking for technology solutions that can be distributed uh so that objective data can be gathered is the first place to go. >> Mr. Gash >> uh I'll just touch on the whistleblower side of it.

I do encourage you know current former military intelligence community industry contractors to come forward in a legal way either through the IC or DoD or whatever the cognizant IG's are um to to lead me you know lead you know join me in this discussion >> commander and I guess I should say this for the record my daddy was United States Marine Corps first marine division so >> yes sir he was old school him and chesty puller on peloo so thank you rather. >> Wow. >> Yes, sir. >> Um I'm not I'm not anything like my daddy. He was incredible.

I'm very mediocre to say the least. But go ahead. >> You seem to be doing fine. >> Yeah. >> Uh for me, uh you know, I was an accident investigator.

So, the biggest thing you learned and I think that witnesses need to to do is one, don't try and make the fish bigger than it was. Stick to the facts. Write it down and don't speculate what you think it is because it will sway your decision. Just write the facts down. we can get all the facts together and we can start to investigate and get a real honest story instead of it was this big.

>> Thank you all and I want to thank everybody. We made history today. Mr. Chairman, I yield. >> Thank you much, Mr.

Garcia. >> Thank you. I know now we're going to be making some closing uh remarks and so I just wanted to say a few things. First, uh to our witnesses, I want to thank all of you for for being here with us today. Uh I know that um it takes a lot a lot of courage.

um you're telling um uh really important information to this committee and I just want to thank you also for your all three of you your service to our country. Um I also want to just note that today's hearing um was both important but also serious and I want to thank our uh subcommittee chairman Mr. Gothamman I think for for running a very fair and substantive hearing. I do want to thank the committee staff on both sides for uh the amount of work that it took to put this hearing uh in place. um and certainly to all the members that have been u involved in this issue prior to prior to the hearing.

I also want to note for our witnesses and for the public that I'm I'm a freshman member of Congress and I've only been here for 7 months, but this is by far the most uh bipartisan uh conversation and discussion that I have seen happen um in the Congress. And I think that um a topic of this significance as it relates to our national security um as it relates to information that we're trying to gather for the for the for the American public uh does bring people together and I think that's been really great uh to see. Um I think it's also important to note for the public we today in our hearing we had on our side also both our full um ranking member which is Mr. Rascin and our vice ranking member which is Miss Okassio Cortez uh both here at our hearing. And I think it shows the importance and seriousness that um our side of the aisle is taking to this important hearing, but also the broader issue as it as it relates to working with our Republican counterparts on this committee.

Um I want to um additionally add that I think and I encourage I think it's really important that we have and continue these discussions and these hearings. Clearly uh there's a lot of information that we don't know. Um, but it's also very clear that we have to continue our investigation and accountability on asking the right questions and ensuring that they're part of the public record. One thing that was important today is um some folks might wonder um you know why are we asking questions that might already be out there or that have been asked before. It's important that they're asked and put into the public record as it relates to this committee.

And so I want to thank you for um you know answering some questions multiple times. I know not just in maybe meetings you had with some members but also here uh in in the public. Let me also just add an additional note that I it's it's important also that our um our our friends in the media and those that are not just reporting on this hearing but that have reported on this topic and that may in the future the media has an important role uh in this process and it's very important that the media engages does independent investigation uh and reports on not just what happened today but what they what they see independently as what is hap happening around UAPs in the broader community. U that is also an important um public benefit that we have in trying to get the information and the facts as it relates uh uh to this. Uh let me also just say finally that as a as a teacher and an educator, a longtime uh u a longtime teacher and researcher um that I also really believe in following facts, in doing your homework and making sure that you follow science uh as we as we try to get as much information as possible.

And so I want to thank you all for for agreeing to do that today. Um transparency is the cornerstone of government. Uh we live in a in a vast galaxy. A lot of unanswered questions. And thank you all for being here today.

Mr. Chairman, >> thank you. Um I'd like to one more time thank uh Mr. Burchin, Miss Luna for bringing this to our attention. It's a topic that has interested me since I was in school.

Uh was a very illuminating uh hearing. Obviously, I think several of us are going to look forward to uh getting some answers in a more confidential setting. I assume some legislation will come out of this. Uh I sure I apologize, Mr. Chairman.

I need to compliment the folks in my office that did a lot of the work on this. Um Rachel and Noah sitting behind me here. They're very quiet and humble, but if without them, this thing would not have come off like it did. So, I apologize. >> Thank you.

Um, I think we're going to want to look into what we can do to make more of this information public. Uh, I think there's certainly a time period after which it should always be made public. And people have been concerned about these issues, like I said, since I was in high school. Um, [clears throat] but in any event, like to thank everybody who was here sticking through through the entire hearing. Without uh objection, the members will have five legislative days to submit materials and to submit additional written questions for the witness witnesses which will be forward to the witnesses for their response.

If there's no further business, without objection, the subcommittee stands adjourned. >> Thank you.