What Do We Know About UFOs? | The Agenda

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>> Steve: LATER THIS MONTH, THE UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE IS SET TO RELEASE A TROVE OF DOCUMENTS. THEY PERTAIN TO WHAT MIGHT BE THE MOST OBSESSIVELY DISCUSSED

AND IMAGINED TOPIC THEY'VE EVER INVESTIGATED: UNEXPLAINED ARIEL PHENOMENA. OR, AS WE USUALLY SAY, UFOs. CANADIAN AIR FORCE PILOTS HAVE ALSO REPORTED SIGHTINGS, AND IF

SERIOUS PEOPLE ARE NOW FINALLY TALKING ABOUT THIS, SO ARE WE. TO DO THAT, LET'S WELCOME: IN PASADENA, CALIFORNIA: AMY SHIRA TEITEL, SPACE FLIGHT HISTORIAN AND AUTHOR OF "FIGHTING FOR SPACE: TWO PILOTS

AND THEIR HISTORIC BATTLE FOR FEMALE SPACEFLIGHT"; ON MANHATTAN ISLAND IN NEW YORK CITY: RALPH BLUMENTHAL, HE WAS A REPORTER WITH THE NEW YORK TIMES FOR MORE THAN FOUR DECADES AND IS AUTHOR OF, "THE BELIEVER:

ALIEN ENCOUNTERS, HARD SCIENCE, AND THE PASSION OF JOHN MACK"; IN WINNIPEG, MANITOBA: CHRIS RUTKOWSKI, A SCIENCE WRITER WHO RUNS THE BLOG "UFOLOGY RESEARCH"; AND IN THE ANNEX NEIGHBOURHOOD

OF ONTARIO'S CAPITAL CITY: DANIEL OTIS, A FREELANCE JOURNALIST WHO HAS WRITTEN FOR PUBLICATIONS SUCH AS: VICE, THE TORONTO STAR, AND THE GLOBE AND MAIL. WE'RE DELIGHTED TO WELCOME ALL

FOUR OF YOU ONTO TVO's AIRWAVES TONIGHT. OKAY, CHRIS. FIRST QUESTION: WHAT'S THAT LITTLE THING OVER YOUR RIGHT

SHOULDER. WE'RE A SERIOUS SHOW HERE. WHAT IS THAT THING? >> Chris Rutkowski: THAT OF COURSE IS THE REDDIT ALIEN THAT EVERYONE IS CALLED SNU, IN OTHER WORDS, WHAT'S NEW FOR YOU.

PEOPLE WANT TO GET ME SOMETHING BECAUSE OF MY UFO INTEREST FOR FATHER'S DAY OR BIRTHDAYS OR WHATEVER. IT'S ALWAYS SOMETHING, WHETHER IT'S MARVIN OR ANYTHING LIKE

THAT. >> Steve: I GOTCHA. OKAY. RALPH, I'D LIKE TO START WITH YOU.

IT WAS YOUR PIECE IN THE NEW YORK TIMES ABOUT THREE AND A HALF YEARS AGO THAT ESSENTIALLY BROKE THE STORY THAT THE PENTAGON WAS IDENTIFIED UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS, AS THEY WERE THEN CALLED.

REFRESH OUR MEMORIES. WHAT DID YOU FIND OUT BACK THEN? >> Ralph Blumenthal: WE FOUND OUT THERE WAS A SECRET UNIT IN THE PENTAGON CALLED THE UNIDENTIFIED SPACE PROGRAM. IT STARTED IN 2007 WITH

$22 MILLION WHICH IS A DROP IN THE BUCKET IN THE PENTAGON BUDGET, TO RESEARCH THESE UNEXPLAINED ENCOUNTERS THAT THE PILOTS WERE HAVING WITH OBJECTS, AND WE FOUND OUT -- WE, THE NEW YORK TIMES, I AND TWO

COLLEAGUES, FOUND OUT THAT THIS UNIT HAD BEEN STUDYING THIS PHENOMENON FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS, WITH NO DISCLOSURE TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC, SUPPOSEDLY THE GOVERNMENT WAS OUT OF THE UFO BUSINESS WITH PROJECT BLUE BOOK AT THE END OF 1969, BUT IN

REALITY THEY WERE CONTINUING TO INVESTIGATE AND THAT'S WHAT WE REPORTED. >> Steve: THESE THREE AND A HALF YEARS LATER, ARE YOU ABLE TO SAY HOW YOU GOT THAT SCOOP NOW? >> YEAH.

I MEAN, ONE OF MY COLLEAGUES, LESLIE CAIN, WHO IS A NOTED UFO WRITER GOT A TIP THAT A MEETING WAS GOING ON IN WASHINGTON, DC WITH THE HEAD OF THE PROGRAM WHO WAS RESIGNING BECAUSE HE WAS NOT GETTING ENOUGH SUPPORT FROM THE

GOVERNMENT. HIS WAS NOT A HOUSEHOLD NAME THEN. IT IS NOW, OF COURSE. BUT LESLIE WENT DOWN, SAT IN ON

THE MEETING, CAME BACK TO ME, AND I REPORTED -- I WAS THEN A CONTRIBUTOR TO THE NEW YORK TIMES, HAVING LEFT THE REGULAR REPORTING STAFF. I REPORTED TO THE EXECUTIVE

EDITOR THAT WE HAD A REAL SCOOP ABOUT THE SECRET PENTAGON OFFICE INVESTIGATING UFOs, AND WE HAD IT ALL CHAPTER AND VERSE ON THE RECORD, NO, YOU KNOW, ANONYMOUS SOURCES. WE HAD THE DOCUMENTATION.

WE HAD HIS RESIGNATION LETTER. AND THEY PUT IT ON THE FRONT PAGE ON A SUNDAY AND, AS THEY SAY, THE REST IS HISTORY. >> Steve: INDEED.

YOU SAID IT WAS A $22 MILLION PROGRAM. I THINK THE PENTAGON'S BUDGET LAST THEN WAS SOMETHING LIKE $600 BILLION.

WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU ABOUT WHAT KIND OF COMMITMENT THE PENTAGON WAS ACTUALLY MAKING TO THIS? >> ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW. IT REALLY WITH AS A DROP IN THE BUCKET, IT WAS A REALLY MINOR

COMMITMENT, AND THEY CLAIM THEY SHUT DOWN THE PROGRAM FIVE YEARS LATER. BUT WE KNOW IT CONTINUED IN ANOTHER FORM AND CONTINUES TO THIS DAY.

SO THEY WERE NOT, YOU KNOW, BANNERING IT, BUT THEY WERE CONTINUING. >> Steve: WITH THAT BACKGROUND IN PLACE, LET'S NOW SHOW

EVERYBODY, YOU GUYS AND OUR VIEWERS, THIS WAS SOME VIDEO THAT THE PENTAGON RELEASED BACK IN 2004. IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE AN ENCOUNTER BETWEEN A FIGHTER JET AND LET'S

JUST CALL IT AN UNKNOWN OBJECT. OKAY, SHELDON, IF YOU WOULD, LET'S4hñ ROLL THAT? >> I'M GOING AGAINST THE WIND. THE WIND IS 120 KNOTS TO THE WEST.

>> Steve: THAT'S VIDEO FROM 2004, RELEASED IN 2017, AND AMY, LET'S GO TO YOU FIRST ON THIS. WHEN YOU SAW THAT, WHAT DID YOU THINK? >> Amy Shira Teitel: I THOUGHT

IT WAS PRETTY INTERESTING, AND VERY, VERY BLURRY. THE THING THAT REALLY STANDS OUT TO ME IN THE VIDEOS, ALL OF THESE VIDEOS, IS THEY ARE SEEN IN RADAR WHICH IMMEDIATELY --

I'M THE SKEPTIC. IT IMMEDIATELY MAKES ME WONDER IF IT COULDN'T BE SOME KIND OF ARTEFACT. NEVERTHELESS I THINK IT'S REALLY

INTERESTING AND I'M THE ONE WHO LIKES TO TAKE WHAT LOOKS UNEXPLAINED AND TRY TO FIND THE EXPLANATION. SO MY IMMEDIATE THOUGHT IS: THIS IS NEAT.

LET'S LOOK AT HOW ARTEFACTS AND RADAR MIGHT WORK. LET'S TRY TO -- WE OBVIOUSLY DON'T KNOW ALL THE DETAILS, WE CAN'T KNOW ALL THE DETAILS, BUT THAT'S KIND OF WHERE MY MIND

GOES FIRST. >> Steve: DANIEL, WHERE DOES YOUR MIND GO FIRST? >> Daniel Otis: I'M NOT AN AERONAUTICAL ENGINEER AND IT'S DIFFICULT TO SAY WHAT WE'RE SEEING THERE.

IT'S THE VOICES, TRAINED AVIATORS, THAT HAVE A PRETTY GOOD IDEA OF WHAT SHOULD BE IN THE SKY AND THEY'RE EXPRESSING SHOCK, EXCITEMENT, SURPRISE AT WHAT THEY'RE SEEING.

AND TO ME, THAT REACTION REALLY HIGHLIGHTS THE ANOMALOUS NATURE OF WHAT'S DEPICTED IN THESE VIDEOS. >> Steve: CHRIS, HOW ABOUT YOUR REACTION? >> Chris Rutkowski: WELL, WHEN

I SAW THAT, I REALIZED THAT THERE'S SOMETHING VERY STRANGE GOING ON HERE. BUT WE HAVE TO PARSE OUT NOT ONLY WHAT THE AUDIO WAS SAYING BUT ALSO THE DESCRIPTIONS OF THE OBJECTS BY THE PILOTS THEMSELVES

LATER. AND THEY DON'T MATCH WHAT WE SEE IN THE VIDEO. IN FACT, ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WITH THE VIDEO IS THAT WE DON'T

HAVE ALL THE INFORMATION. A LOT OF IT HAS BEEN STRIPPED OF SOME OF ITS ACCOMPANYING INFORMATION AS TO WHEN IT WAS TAKEN, WHERE IT WAS TAKEN, SO FORTH.

AND THE VIDEO ITSELF WAS ACTUALLY KICKING AROUND ON THE INTERNET YEARS BEFORE THE PENTAGON RELEASED IT. SO THERE'S A LOT OF RED FLAGS THAT ARE THERE.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I AGREE WITH AMY, THAT IT IS VERY CURIOUS AND I WANT TO KNOW MORE. >> Steve: RALPH, I SUPPOSE THERE'S THE INCLINATION TO WANT

TO JUMP TO THE CONCLUSION THAT IT IS AN UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECT. BUT IS IT JUST AS EQUALLY POSSIBLE THAT IT COULD BE SOME -- WHO KNOWS WHAT? MILITARY THING FROM RUSSIA OR

CHINA OR BEYOND? >> Ralph Blumenthal: WELL, THE EXPERTS THAT WE'VE CONSULTED AT THE NEW YORK TIMES HAVE PRETTY MUCH RULED THAT OUT. FIRST OF ALL, IT'S NOT OURS, BECAUSE WE WOULDN'T BE, YOU

KNOW, ENDANGERING OUR OWN PILOTS BY RUNNING THESE THINGS IN OUR OWN AIRSPACE WHEN PILOTS ARE GOING AROUND. EQUALLY UNLIKELY IS THAT IT'S RUSSIAN OR CHINESE, BECAUSE WE

DON'T THINK OR OUR EXPERTS DON'T THINK THEY HAVE GRADUATED TO THAT LEVEL, ASTONISHING AERODYNAMICS, THE ABILITY TO OPERATE IN THE WATER, BY THE WAY, UNDERWATER AS WELL AS THE AIR.

SO I WOULD SAY, YEAH, YOU KNOW, WE'RE ALL SKEPTICAL. BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, CATCHING THESE THINGS ON RADAR, ON THERMAL IMAGING CAMERAS, BEING EYEBALLED BY OUR MOST HIGHLY

TRAINED OBSERVERS, THESE PILOTS, REALLY LEADS TO THE CONCLUSION THAT FOR THE FIRST TIME WE CAN SAY, OR EXPERTS CAN SAY WITH SOME AUTHORITY THAT THESE THINGS EXIST, PHYSICALLY. THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE,

WHERE THEY COME FROM, WHO'S BEHIND THE WHEEL. THEY DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THEM. BUT THE BIG BREAKTHROUGH, IN MY

VIEW, IS THAT THEY NOW KNOW MORE OR LESS CONVINCINGLY THAT THEY EXIST, WHICH THEY COULDN'T SAY BEFORE. THEY ATTRIBUTED IT TO SWAMP GAS OR REFLECTIONS ON THE DESERT

FLOOR FROM HEADLIGHTS OR HALLUCINATIONS OR FLY SPECKS ON THE WINDSHIELD. YOU NAME IT. NOW IT LOOKS LIKE THESE THINGS REALLY EXIST.

SO THAT'S SOMETHING. >> Steve: CHRIS, YOU'VE BEEN STUDYING UFOs FOR HOW LONG? >> Chris Rutkowski: FOR, WELL, LET'S SAY 40 YEARS AND GO FROM THERE.

>> Steve: OKAY. IN YOUR FOUR DECADES PLUS OF LOOKING AT THESE THINGS AND STUDYING THESE THINGS, HOW COMMON WOULD WHAT WE JUST SAW BE IN THE CANADIAN SKIES? >> WELL, IN CANADA, THERE ARE

MORE THAN 1,000 REPORTS THAT ARE RECORDED EVERY YEAR. THE CANADIAN UFO SURVEY THAT I COORDINATE HAS ABOUT 22,000 CASES OVER THE PAST 30 YEARS OR SO.

AND WE DO GET REPORTS FROM PILOTS. WE GET REPORTS FROM MILITARY PERSONNEL, FROM AIR -- FROM, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE IN TOWERS.

THEY'RE ALL OVER THE MAP. AND MOST OF THE CASES CAN BE EXPLAINED, BUT THERE'S A SMALL FRACTION EVERY YEAR THAT ARE PUZZLING, AND A LOT OF THEM DO COME FROM PILOTS WHO ARE

REPORTING THINGS SIMILAR TO WHAT HAS BEEN REPORTED IN THE UNITED STATES. >> Steve: AND AMY, WE SHOULD JUST SAY, YOU'RE ORIGINALLY FROM CANADA.

YOU'RE IN CALIFORNIA RIGHT NOW. HOW MANY OF THESE THINGS, AS CHRIS JUST DESCRIBED THEM, WOULD YOU SAY ARE GENUINELY TRULY UNEXPLAINABLE? >> Amy Shira Teitel: NOT THAT MANY, TO BE HONEST.

YOU SEE A LOT -- I'M IN L.A., AND WE SEE A LOT OF UNEXPLAINED PHENOMENA IN THE SKY. I GET A LOT OF TEXTS FROM FRIENDS PANICKING ABOUT WEIRD

THINGS. PRETTY MUCH I LOOK OUT WHAT LAUNCHED ON THE VANDENBERG AND YOU'RE SEEING A ROCKET CONTRAIL OR A STAGE GOING OVER. I THINK MOST OF THE TIME, AND

GRANTED I'M NOT THE YOU'VOLOGIST, BUT MOST OF THE TIME WHEN I LOOK AT THINGS UNEXPLAINED, THEY'RE EITHER EXPLAINED, THEY'RE DEBRIS FROM ROCKETS, THEY'RE AIRCRAFT THAT WE AREN'T FAMILIAR WITH SO WE'RE

NOT USED TO SEEING THE SHAPE OF SO THEY'RE JUST AIRCRAFT. A LOT OF PEOPLE MISTAKE LIGHTNING, IT'S SOMETHING WE DON'T SEE VERY OFTEN. THAT CAN BE INTERPRETED AS A

UFO. NOT TO MENTION APPARENTLY PEOPLE SEE PLANETS AND THINK THEY'RE UFOs SOMETIMES BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT USED TO THE LIGHT FROM PLANETS NOT WAVERING.

>> Steve: DANIEL, WE TALKED ABOUT THE U.S. PENTAGON AND ITS INTEREST IN THIS GOING BACK IN TIME. HOW ABOUT THE CANADIAN MILITARY? WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT THEIR

INTEREST IN SIGHTINGS OF UFOs? >> Daniel Otis: MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT THEIR INTEREST IS ALMOST NONEXISTENT. THE CANADIAN MILITARY AND MILITARY PERSONNEL HAVE BEEN

REPORTING THINGS OF THIS NATURE FOR CLOSE TO 70 YEARS, AND THESE ARE AT BASES FROM COAST TO COAST. YOU KNOW, ONE EXAMPLE WOULD BE AT CFB NORTH BAY IN NORTHEASTERN

ONTARIO, THERE WERE UFO REPORTS FILED BY MILITARY PERSONNEL IN BOTH 2007 AND IN 1952, AND THE CASE IN 1952 WAS, YOU KNOW, GENUINELY THE WEIRDER ONE. IT INVOLVED A FAST MOVING LIGHT THAT STOPPED AND THEN REVERSED

AND SPED AWAY FASTER THAN ANYTHING THE WITNESSES HAD EVER SEEN. AND THESE WERE CANADIAN AIR FORCE PERSONNEL. SO THERE'S BEEN A HISTORY OF

DOCUMENTATION IN CANADA REGARDING THIS. BUT THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE A LOT OF FOLLOW-UP AND INVESTIGATION ON THE PART OF THE MILITARY.

THEY'RE GETTING THESE REPORTS, BUT THEY DON'T REALLY SEEM TO BE DOING MUCH WITH THEM. >> Steve: CHRIS, IS THAT YOUR UNDERSTANDING AS WELL? >> Chris Rutkowski:

ABSOLUTELY. IN FACT, WHAT'S CURIOUS IS THAT IN CANADA, WE ACTUALLY HAVE A MORE TRANSPARENT MILITARY INTEREST IN UFOs, DESPITE THE FACT, AS DANIEL SAYS, IT DOESN'T

SEEM THAT THEY'RE DOING MUCH. THE UNITED STATES FINISHED PROJECT BLUE BOOK THAT MANY ARE FAMILIAR WITH FROM THE TV SHOWS AND SO FORTH BACK IN THE 1960s.

SINCE THEN THERE HASN'T BEEN MUCH INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT THE UNITED STATES HAS BEEN DOING IN TERMS OF UFO REPORTS AND INVESTIGATIONS AND SIGHTINGS UNTIL THE RECENT PENTAGON INTEREST IN THE VIDEO.

SO I THINK IT'S BECAUSE OF THAT THAT WE HAVE THE INTEREST. BUT IN CANADA WE KNOW THE NATIONAL RESEARCH COUNCIL INVESTIGATED UFOs IN PARTNERSHIP WITH THE ROYAL

CANADIAN MOUNTED POLICE UNTIL ABOUT 1995. AFTER THAT, TRANSPORT CANADA TOOK A ROLE. THE RCAF HAS BEEN INVOLVED.

IT SEEMS LIKE IT'S BEEN A HOT POTATO. AND THATW&( THE BIGGEST CONCERN, IS NOBODY SEEMS TO KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH THE UFO PHENOMENON.

>> Steve: CHRIS, LET ME DO A QUICK FOLLOW-UP WITH YOU ON THAT. WE'RE LIVING IN A CoVID-19 AGE RIGHT NOW AND PEOPLE ARE

REACTING SOME WELL, SOME NOT SO WELL. DO YOU THINK CoVID HAS HAD AN INFLUENCE IN THE SPIKING OF PEOPLE NOTICING UFOs? >> WELL, IN FACT, IN 2020 -- SORRY, IN 2019 WE DID NOTICE AN

INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF UFO REPORTS. IN 2020 WE NOTICED A SIGNIFICANT INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF UFO REPORTS. AND A LOT OF SPECULATION HAS

BEEN AROUND WHETHER THIS WAS REGARDING THE PANDEMIC. PEOPLE WERE SPENDING MORE TIME AT HOME IN THEIR BACK YARDS RATHER THAN INSIDE VENUES WHERE THEY DIDN'T LOOK INTO THE SKY

AND HENCE REPORTING UFOs. HOWEVER, WE'RE STILL IN THE MIDST OF THE PANDEMIC, AND IN 2021 SO FAR, THE NUMBER OF UFOs IN CANADA, ALSO IN THE UNITED STATES, HAS DECREASED

QUITE SIGNIFICANTLY. SO THERE ARE OTHER FACTORS AT PLAY. BUT THERE'S CERTAINLY A RELATIONSHIP THERE SOMEHOW.

>> Steve: AMY, CAN I GET YOU TO WEIGH IN ON THAT AS WELL. HAS CoVID-19 CONTRIBUTED TO THIS IN ANY WAY? >> Amy Shira Teitel: I MEAN, POSSIBLY.

IT'S POSSIBLE THAT -- AND I THINK IT MIGHT HAVE CONTRIBUTED MORE NOT FROM WHAT I SEE AT LEAST, NOT NECESSARILY IN SIGHTINGS OR PEOPLE KIND OF SEEING THINGS BUT IN THE INTEREST IN THIS.

I THINK WE'RE SO JUST BOGGED DOWN WITH CoVID COVERAGE AND THERE'S SO MUCH NEGATIVITY IN THE NEWS RIGHT NOW. I MEAN, THE WORLD IS KIND OF FALLING APART.

THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT'S A LITTLE BIT EXCITING. AND I THINK EVEN THE BIGGEST SKEPTIC KIND OF WANTS TO BELIEVE.

THERE'S AN ELEMENT OF LIKE EXCITEMENT. THERE'S AN ELEMENT OF, WELL, ALL OF THIS BAD NEWS, BUT WE HAVE THIS INTERESTING, POTENTIAL INTERESTING UFO NEWS COMING OUT

OF THE GOVERNMENT. MAYBE THIS WILL GIVE US SOMETHING EXCITING TO FOCUS ON, SOMETHING REALLY FUN THAT'S NEW. I THINK THERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF

THAT THAT IS KIND OF DRIVING A LOT OF THE INTEREST RIGHT NOW. >> Steve: WELL, WHEN YOU SAY NEWS COMING OUT OF THE GOVERNMENT.

LET ME FOLLOW UP WITH RALPH ON THAT. I DO WANT TO GET YOUR SENSE ABOUT HOW COOPERATIVE THE GOVERNMENT AND/OR THE PENTAGON TRULY IS, HOW TRANSPARENT

THEY'RE TRULY BEING IN HELPING THE PUBLIC UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON RIGHT NOW. WHAT'S YOUR SENSE OF IT? >> Ralph Blumenthal: WELL, THEY'VE HAD A BAD HISTORY. I MEAN, THEY'VE TAMPED THIS

THING DOWN FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, PROBABLY FEARING THAT THE PUBLIC COULDN'T HANDLE IT. MY FEELING IS THAT THE PUBLIC HAS BEEN AHEAD OF THE GOVERNMENT ON THIS ALL ALONG, AND, YOU KNOW, AND THE GOVERNMENT WAS

ATTRIBUTING THESE PHENOMENA TO, YOU KNOW, SWAMP GAS OR THE PLANET VENUS. PEOPLE WHO KNEW WHAT THEY HAD SEEN. PEOPLE, OFTEN VETERANS OF WORLD

WAR II, LET'S SAY, AND THEY WERE LOOKING AT CRAFT WITH RED FLASHING LIGHTS AND WINDOWS AND THEY GOT CLOSE-UP VIEWS OF THESE THINGS, KNEW WHAT THEY WERE LOOKING AT AND IT WAS LAUGHABLE WHAT THEY THOUGHT, YOU KNOW,

WHAT THE GOVERNMENT WAS TRYING TO PUT OVER ON THEM. SO PEOPLE HAVE BEEN AHEAD OF THE GOVERNMENT. THE GOVERNMENT HAS A LONG HISTORY OF TRYING TO DOWNPLAY

THIS FOR VARIOUS REASONS, SOME RELATED TO DEFENCE, ET CETERA. BUT, YOU KNOW, I ALSO WANTED TO SAY THAT THERE'S SO MANY VARIABLES IN THE NUMBER OF SIGHTINGS. FIRST OF ALL, NOT EVERYONE WHO

SEES A UFO REPORTS IT. SECONDLY, IT DEPENDS ON PLACES LIKE CALIFORNIA, WHICH LEADS THE COUNTRY, THE U.S., IN SIGHTINGS, IS PROBABLY BECAUSE MORE PEOPLE ARE OUTDOORS THERE BECAUSE OF

THE WEATHER. I DID A STORY ON THIS FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES SOME YEARS AGO ON A BIG, THICK BOOK THAT TRACKED THE SIGHTINGS, THE SHAPE, THE TIME OF DAY, THE COUNTY.

SO THERE'S A LOT OF DATA THERE. IT'S HARD TO PARSE. BUT THERE'S A LOT OF INFORMATION. AND SOME OF THE SO-CALLED

SKEPTICS HAVE NOT DONE THEIR HOMEWORK. THEY HAVE A QUICK ANSWER TO EVERYTHING. BUT THEY HAVEN'T LOOKED THROUGH

THE TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF LITERATURE AND REPORTS AND SCIENTIFIC REPORTS THAT HAVE COME OUT ON THIS ISSUE. SO IF YOU'RE GOING TO BE A SKEPTIC OR DEBUNK IT, AT LEAST

DO THE HOMEWORK AND LOOK INTO IT, WHICH I DID FOR MY BOOK. >> Steve: DANIEL, I WONDER IF I COULD GET YOU TO WEIGH IN ON, YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOT LIBERALS IN POWER NOW IN OTTAWA. BUT FIVE YEARS AGO, I GUESS SIX

YEARS AGO NOW, IT WAS CONSERVATIVES IN POWER. HOW WELL ARE EITHER PARTY IN GOVERNMENT IN CANADA DOING AT BEING TRANSPARENT ON THIS? >> Daniel Otis: I THINK OPAQUE

IS A BETTER WORD THAN TRANSPARENT. I DON'T GET THE SENSE THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, THE CANADIAN GOVERNMENT IS HIDING ANYTHING PER SE.

BUT I THINK WHEN IT COMES TO UFOs, THERE'S BEEN OFFICIAL DISINTEREST FOR DECADES. FOR EXAMPLE, YOU KNOW, IN THE WORK I'VE DONE, IT'S INCREDIBLY

DIFFICULT TO GET RESPONSES FROM, YOU KNOW, GOVERNMENT AND MILITARY OFFICIALS FOR THE STORIES I'M DOING. DOCUMENTS ARE A LITTLE BIT EASIER TO PULL IN CANADA IF YOU

KNOW WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING FOR. BUT WE DON'T HAVE ANY POLITICIANS WHO ARE OUTSPOKEN ON THE UFO ISSUE IN CANADA, LIKE THEY DO IN THE UNITED STATES. FOR EXAMPLE, FLORIDA SENATOR

MARCO RUBIO HAS SPOKEN VERY OPENLY AND VERY FREQUENTLY ABOUT THE UFO ISSUE. AND THIS IS A PERSON WHO IS ON THE U.S. SENATE INTELLIGENCE

COMMITTEE, WHICH WOULD MEAN THAT, YOU KNOW, HE'S PRIVY TO A LOT MORE MATERIAL THAN PEOPLE IN THE PUBLIC, LIKE YOU. >> Steve: LET ME GO TO AMY ON THAT.

YES, MARCO RUBIO, INDEED. FORMER NOT JUST A SENATOR BUT RAN FOR THE REPUBLICAN NOMINATION AGAINST DONALD TRUMP. HE'S BEEN PUBLIC ABOUT HIS

INTEREST IN THIS. HARRY REID, THE FORMER SENATE MAJORITY LEADER FOR THE DEMOCRATS, HAVE SHOWED A GREAT DEAL OF INTEREST IN THIS SUBJECT WHEN HE WAS IN PUBLIC LIFE.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF ALL THAT? >> Amy Shira Teitel: THAT ONE I FEEL IS A LITTLE BIT HARD TO PARSE OUT. POLITICIANS ARE ALWAYS -- HAVE SOME KIND OF ANGLE, I FEEL, AND

I MIGHT -- YOU KNOW, THIS IS JUST MY OWN THOUGHTS. I FEEL LIKE POLITICIANS ALWAYS HAVE AN ANGLE, WHETHER IT'S BRINGING IN MONEY TO THEIR STATE OR WHETHER THERE'S SOMETHING THAT THEY PERSONALLY WANT TO SEE

HAPPEN. AND I THINK WHEN WE TALK ABOUT UFOs AND KIND OF POLITICIANS THINKING ABOUT UFOs, THE OTHER THING WE NEED TO KIND OF REMEMBER IS THE MILITARY HAS

LONG DENIED HAVING TECHNOLOGY AND HAVING PROGRAMS IN EXISTENCE AND KEPT THEM FROM EVEN SENATORS AND CONGRESSPEOPLE BECAUSE OF CLASSIFICATION. SO THE IDEA OF PEOPLE KIND OF CALLING FOR MONEY TO UNLOAD

THESE PROGRAMS OR RELEASE THESE PROGRAMS ISN'T NECESSARILY NEW BECAUSE THERE'S ALWAYS THINGS THAT EVEN THE HIGH-RANKING POLITICIANS DON'T NECESSARILY KNOW. BUT THERE COULD BE SOME

RATIONALE. YOU KNOW, THESE ARE ALL -- ONE THING WE'RE SEEING NAVY SIGHTINGS. WE'RE NOT SEEING A LOT OF AIR

FORCE AND FAA SIGHTINGS WHICH ARE KIND OF THE TWO GROUPS LOOKING FOR SOMETHING IN THE AIR. IS THERE ANOTHER THING? BECAUSE AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHATEVER HAPPENS WITH THIS

REPORT, IF THERE IS AN INFLUX OF MONEY GOING INTO THE PENTAGON OR TO THE MILITARY TO STUDY THESE PHENOMENA, THAT MONEY IS VERY REAL, EVEN IF THE SIGHTINGS TURN OUT TO NOT BE, IF THAT MAKES SENSE.

>> Steve: LET ME FOLLOW UP WITH RALPH ON THAT. I THINK I REMEMBER READING IN YOUR STORY THE FACT THAT -- NOW, HARRY REID, THE FORMER SENATOR LEADER IS FROM NEVADA AND HE HAD

A FRIEND IN NEVADA WHO WAS INTERESTED IN THIS SUBJECT AND THEREFORE THE SENATE MAJORITY LEADER WAS HELPING TO FUND THE WORK OF HIS FRIEND. NOW, HOW MUCH OF THAT IS WHAT'S

REALLY GOING ON HERE AND HOW MUCH OF IT IS HARRY REID IS REALLY INTERESTED IN UFOs? >> Ralph Blumenthal: WELL, LET'S NAME THE FRIEND. IT'S ROBERT BIGALOW WHO IS AN AEROSPACE PIONEER, HE HAS BEEN

AT THE INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION, HE IS A BILLIONAIRE, HE HAS FUNDED ANOMALOUS RESEARCH IN MANY WAYS, INCLUDING A RANCH IN UTAH THAT IS HOME TO A LOT OF SPOOKY PHENOMENA, SKINWALKER RANCH.

HE HAS A LEGITIMATE INTEREST IN THE SUBJECT AND THE RESOURCES TO DO THAT. HE WAS PICKED AS THE MAIN CONTRACTOR TO DO SOME OF THIS

RESEARCH. BUT LET ME ALSO SAY THAT THE NAVY NOW IS ENCOURAGING PEOPLE, AND THE PENTAGON, TO COME FORWARD WITH STORIES, WHICH THEY NEVER DID BEFORE.

NOW, THAT'S SOMETHING NEW. AND THAT REPRESENTS A BREAK WITH THE PAST. THAT THEY WANT MILITARY PEOPLE TO REPORT THESE ENCOUNTERS FOR

THE FIRST TIME. THAT SHOWS I THINK A SIGNIFICANT CHANGE IN THE POSTURE OF THE DEFENCE DEPARTMENT. >> Steve: CHRIS, IF THERE EVER

WERE A PRESIDENT WHO WAS GOING TO BLOW THE LID ON THIS THING, I THINK IT WAS, AS JOE BIDEN DESCRIBES HIM, THE FORMER GUY. YOU KNOW, DONALD TRUMP WASN'T A BIG FAN OF FOLLOWING THE TYPICAL

PROCEDURES OF GEOOF THE AND SO ON. IN YOUR VIEW, DID HE REVEAL ANY INFORMATION ABOUT UFOs MORE THAN HE SHOULD HAVE OR MORE THAN HE MIGHT HAVE WANTED TO? >> Chris Rutkowski: I DON'T THINK THAT TRUMP DID, NO.

IN FACT, I THINK THERE'S BEEN MUCH MORE INTEREST IN WHAT BARACK OBAMA SAID ON UFOs, I THINK IT WAS ON AN AMERICAN TALK SHOW. THE POLITICAL THING IS VERY

INTERESTING. I MEAN, IN CANADA, THERE HAVE BEEN A NUMBER OF POLITICIANS OVER THE YEARS WHO HAVE GONE ON RECORD ABOUT UFOs. IN FACT IN HOUSE OF COMMONS

DEBATES, UFOs HAVE BEEN BROUGHT UP MORE THAN 45 TIMES IF YOU GO THROUGH THE HANSARD. AND FORMER GOVERNOR GENERAL ED SCHREYER CHALLENGED THE ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE A NUMBER OF TIMES ON ITS POSITION ON UFOs,

DEMANDING TO KNOW WHAT'S BEING DONE ABOUT IT AND SO FORTH. SO THERE ARE POLITICIANS IN CANADA AS WELL WHO ARE INTERESTED.

I RECENTLY WAS INTERVIEWED WITH PAMELA WALLIN. THERE'S A FEW OTHERS THAT HAVE CONTACTED ME OVER THE YEARS. AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S SOMETHING

THAT I THINK IS PERCOLATING IN THE BACK OF EVERYBODY'S MIND. YOU KNOW, WHETHER IT'S GOING TO BE REVEALED. I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK

THIS DISCLOSURE IDEA IS GOING TO BE TELLING EVERYBODY WHAT'S REALLY GOING ON BEHIND THE SCENES WITH REGARD TO THE GOVERNMENT. I'M NOT ENTIRELY SURE.

I AGREE WITH DANIEL THAT PERHAPS NOTHING IS BEING DONE REALLY. BUT THERE ARE BLACK PROJECTS THAT WE DON'T HAVE ANY PRIVY, INFORMATION ON.

SO MAYBE EVEN THIS PARTICULAR INTELLIGENCE REPORT ISN'T GOING TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF IT. .>> Steve: DANIEL, LET ME GET YOU TO FOLLOW UP IN THIS REGARD.

I HAD CONVERSATIONS WITH PAUL HELLIER, HE'S STILL AROUND, IN HIS LATE 90s, BUT HE WAS DEFENCE MINISTER BACK IN THE '60s, HE REPRESENTED THE LIBERALS AND THE CONSERVATIVES ACTUALLY IN PARLIAMENT --

HELLYER. HE WAS CONVINCED THAT UFOs EXIST. HE WENT TO CONFERENCES I RECALL BACK IN THE DAY.

DO YOU KNOW ANY OTHER POLITICIANS IN CANADA WHO CHAMPION THIS ISSUE? >> Daniel Otis: ONE THING I SHOULD MENTION ABOUT MR.

HELLYER, HIS INTEREST IN UFO WAS DEVELOPED AFTER HIS TIME IN OFFICE. >> Steve: YES. >> WHEN HE WAS SITTING AS MINISTER, HE'S READILY ADMITTED

THIS HIMSELF THAT HE WAS NOT ENGAGED IN THIS ISSUE. I'VE HAD POLITICIANS IN CANADA QUIETLY REACH OUT TO DISCUSS THE MATTER, BUT REALLY -- YOU KNOW, IN PARLIAMENT RIGHT NOW, IN OTTAWA RIGHT NOW, THERE DOESN'T

SEEM TO BE ANYONE WHO IS WILLING TO BE AS OUTSPOKEN ON THIS TOPIC AS SOME OF THE POLITICIANS IN THE UNITED STATES. IN ADDITION TO RUBIO, THERE'S SENATOR MARK WARNER, YOU KNOW,

OBAMA'S MADE COMMENTS, JOHN PODESTA, FORMER COY DIRECTOR. THE LIST OF -- C.I.A. DIRECTOR. THE LIST GOES ON AND ON. RIGHT NOW HERE IN CANADA, IT'S

MOSTLY SILENCE. >> Steve: RALPH -- SORRY, SOMEBODY WANTED TO JUMP IN THERE? >> Ralph Blumenthal: YEAH, I WANT TO JUMP IN.

THIS MAY BE COUNTERINTUITIVE AND MAY SOUND CRAZY, BUT PRESIDENTS DON'T NECESSARILY KNOW. THEY DON'T HAVE A NEED TO KNOW. OFTEN THEY DON'T WANT TO KNOW.

THEY HAVE ENOUGH TO DEAL WITH. AND FROM OUR RESEARCH, WE KNOW THAT THE INFORMATION IS SQUIRRELLED AWAY IN SECRET PARTS OF THE GOVERNMENT, SPECIAL ACCESS PROGRAMS THAT REQUIRE A

VERY HIGH DEGREE OF SECURITY CLEARANCE TO GET INTO. AND EVEN PRESIDENTS HAVE NOT HAD DIRECT ACCESS TO THESE PROGRAMS. IF THEY INSISTED AND WANTED TO KNOW -- WE HEARD GEORGE H.W.

BUSH WAS ONE OF THOSE BECAUSE HE HAD A BACKGROUND AT THE C.I.A. SINCE THEN, I CAN'T THINK OF ANY PRESIDENT WHO HAS REALLY PROBED INTO THIS AREA AND GOTTEN -- EITHER WANTED TO GET ANSWERS OR

GOTTEN ANY ANSWERS. SO, YOU KNOW, POPULAR CONCEPTION MIGHT BE, IF HE'S PRESIDENT HE CAN NO ANYTHING. THAT MAY BE TRUE.

BUT IN REALITY, THEY HAVE NOT. >> Steve: CHRIS, WE ARE HAVING I THINK A SERIOUS CONVERSATION ABOUT A SERIOUS SUBJECT TONIGHT, AMONG THE FIVE OF US HERE. BUT THE REALITY IS, OFTENTIMES

IN POPULAR CULTURE, THIS ISSUE IS PORTRAYED IN -- WELL, ANY NUMBER OF WAYS. I SEE ON THE SHELF BEHIND YOU YOU'VE GOT THE MARTIAN FROM -- OH, MY GOSH, WHAT CARTOON WAS THAT FROM? I'M BLANKING.

>> Chris Rutkowski: FROM BUGS BUNNY. >> Steve: THAT'S RIGHT. YOU HAVE MOVIES, INDEPENDENCE DAY, THE X-FILES THAT CERTAINLY

DON'T PORTRAY THIS ISSUE IN THE SERIOUSNESS OF FASHIONS. HAS THAT PREVENTED GOVERNMENTS AND POLITICIANS FROM TAKING THIS ISSUE MORE SERIOUSLY? >> Chris Rutkowski: THERE'S NO QUESTION IT HAS.

THE REALITY IS THAT THE CONCEPT OF UFOs AND ALIENS HAS BEEN VERY PERVASIVE IN OUR CULTURE FOR MANY YEARS. WE LIVE IN THE JAMES CAMERON UNIVERSE WHERE WE ASSUME ALIENS

ARE OUT THERE. BUT THAT ALSO DRIVES SCIENTISTS TO PURSUE THE SUBJECT OF ALIENS AND UFOs. IN FACT I HAVE MANY COLLEAGUES

IN PHYSICS AND ASTRONOMY WHO HAVE GOTTEN INTO THE SUBJECT BECAUSE THEY'RE CURIOUS ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF LIFE OUT THERE. AND THERE'S MANY MASTERS AND

DOCTORAL THESES THAT ARE PUBLISHED EVERY YEAR ON THE SUBJECT OF UFOs AND ALIENS, ACROSS NORTH AMERICA AND AROUND THE WORLD. SO SCIENCE IS TAKING THE SUBJECT

SERIOUSLY. IT'S JUST THAT, YOU KNOW, OUR POPULAR CULTURE PRESENTS IT IN A WAY THAT IS LESS SO. SO I THINK WE HAVE TO

ACKNOWLEDGE THAT, BUT AT THE SAME TIME RECOGNIZE THAT THERE IS SERIOUSNESS, AND WHETHER IT'S ALIENS OR FOREIGN POWERS SENDING INCURSIONS INTO OUR AIRSPACE OR PERHAPS SOME TECHNICAL DIFFICULTIES WITH RADAR AND

INFRARED SENSORS AND THAT TYPE OF THING, IN ANY OF THOSE SITUATIONS I THINK IT'S DEFINITELY WORTHWHILE PURSUING. HOPEFULLY THIS SENATE INTELLIGENCE REPORT WILL SPUR

SOME OF THAT. >> Steve: DOWN TO OUR LAST FEW MINUTES HERE. AMY, LET ME GET YOU TO WEIGH IN ON THIS.

WHAT IF -- WHAT IF THERE'S ACTUALLY CONCLUSIVE PROOF THAT UFOs EXIST, THAT THEY'RE NOT UNIDENTIFIED ANYMORE, THERE ARE GENUINELY ALIENS. OKAY.

THEN WHAT? >> Amy Shira Teitel: AWESOME? I THINK THAT WOULD BE A VERY INTERESTING THING TO COME OF IT. NOT SURE THAT'S WHAT WE'RE GOING TO GET FROM THIS REPORT. BUT I THINK IT WOULD BE REALLY,

REALLY INTERESTING. AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE SCIENCE MIND IN ME IS JUST LIKE: GREAT, COOL. LET'S UNDERSTAND THAT.

NOW IT'S NO LONGER UNIDENTIFIED. NOW WE GET TO IDENTIFY IT AND LEARN ABOUT IT, WHICH CAN NEVER BE A PROBLEM. I THINK IF WE DO KIND OF GET

ANYTHING CONCLUSIVE OUT OF THIS REPORT. AND EVEN IF WHAT WE GET OUT OF THIS REPORT IS KIND OF A CENTRAL DATABASE OF ALL OF THE SIGHTINGS FROM ACROSS THE MILITARY AND

CIVILIAN REPORTS TO KIND OF HAVE THIS DATABASE TO WHERE LIKE WE CAN GO TO THINGS AND WE CAN MATCH UP SIGHTINGS AND ACTUALLY TRY TO UNDERSTAND IT AND GET A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT PEOPLE ARE SEEING IN THE SKY.

I THINK THAT'S ALSO A GREAT THING TO COME OF IT. I THINK NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS, IT WOULD PROBABLY BE A GOOD THING FOR THE SAKE OF STUDYING WHAT WE DO SEE IN THE SKY.

>> Steve: DANIEL, IF WE'RE NOT THE ONLY ONES OUT THERE, OKAY, THEN WHAT? >> Daniel Otis: HONESTLY, TO ME, YOU KNOW, I FEEL LIKE WHEN WE START TALKING ABOUT ALIENS AND ET, IT SORT OF DETRACTS FROM

THIS CONVERSATION. YOU KNOW, THE STORIES I WRITE DEAL WITH CREDIBLE OBSERVERS LIKE MILITARY PERSONNEL AND PROFESSIONAL AVIATORS WHO HAVE GENUINELY BEEN SEEING WEIRD

THINGS IN OUR SKIES FOR DECADES. AND ALL OF THOSE COULD HAVE CONVENTIONAL EXPLANATIONS. I'M PERFECTLY WILLING TO ADMIT THAT.

BUT AS A SOCIETY, YOU KNOW, WHEN PEOPLE MAKE REPORTS OF THIS NATURE, WE HAVE SORT OF RIDICULED THEM OR DISMISSED THEM. BUT WE NEED MORE PEOPLE LIKE

THIS TO COME FORWARD. AND THE ONLY WAY WE'RE ABLE -- WE'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT IS BY NORMALIZING THE CONVERSATION, WHICH WILL HOPEFULLY LEAD TO MORE AND

BETTER DATA FROM WITNESSES, WHICH COULD HOPEFULLY LEAD TO ANSWERS. AND IF IT'S ALL CONVENTIONAL IN THE END, IF IT'S ALL PROSAIC, I THINK THAT'S JUST FINE.

BUT WHAT WE REALLY NEED TO DO IS TAKE IT SERIOUSLY AND AS A SOCIETY ACCEPT THAT THESE OBSERVATIONS ARE REAL AND THE ONLY WAY WE'RE GOING TO GET ANSWERS IS IF WE TAKE IT SERIOUSLY AND STUDY IT.

>> Steve: RALPH, IN OUR LAST MINUTE, SUM IT UP FOR US. IF THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE, THEN WHAT? >> Ralph Blumenthal: LOOK, WE CAN'T GET AHEAD OF OURSELVES.

WE CAN'T EQUATE UFOs AND ALIENS. AND THE GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN VERY CLEAR ON THIS, THAT THEY ARE LOOKING INTO WHAT THESE OBJECTS ARE, THEIR AIRO DYNAMICS, TRYING

TO DUPLICATE IT IF WE CAN DUPLICATE IT FOR OURSELVES AND KEEP IT AWAY FROM OUR ADVERSARIES. IN OUR REPORTING IN THE NEW YORK TIMES WE'VE BEEN VERY CAREFUL

NOT TO DRAW THAT INFERENCE, THAT THESE THINGS ARE OPERATED BY ALIENS. WE JUST DON'T KNOW. IT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO KEEP THAT SEPARATE.

THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT HAVE HAD EXPERIENCES BUT HOW THEY'RE RELATED TO UFOs, WE DON'T KNOW. LET'S KEEP OUR EYE ON THE BALL, LET'S TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHAT ALL

THESE THINGS ARE, GATHERING ALL THE DATA, LET SCIENCE TAKE A GOOD LOOK AND TAKE IT FROM THERE, ONE STEP AT A TIME. >> Steve: THAT'S RALPH BLUMENTHAL ALONG WITH AMY SHIRA

TEITEL, DANIEL OTIS, AND CHRIS RUTKOWSKI. WE'RE GRATEFUL THAT YOU COULD DISCUSS THIS WITH US TONIGHT. TAKE CARE, EVERYBODY.