Eric Weinstein Debates CIA UFO Expert Hal Puthoff

Transcript

were there actually updates  in physics maybe mid-century   that were not disclosed to the public well i  mean it quieted down because nobody ever got   anywhere or it quieted it down because  it did get somewhere and it went black   ladies and gentlemen it's finally here the much  anticipated conversation with eric weinstein and   hal put off the world's most brilliant physics 

mind of our time is the son of the country's most   prominent and important anti-gravity researcher of  the 1950s i don't know what any of this is hal is   an electrical engineer and laser physicist former  nsa and cia hal was a senior advisor to atip the   official government ufo investigation program that  ran from 2007 to 2012 out of bigelow aerospace he   also founded and ran the cia's psychic spy program  called stargate out of stanford research institute   in the 70s does our government have a protocol to 

wield stigma as a tool for keeping its programs   secret certainly there are parts of the government  who consider that to be their job many of you are   already familiar with my colleague eric weinstein  he's a mathematician who's dared to construct a   unified theory of physics called geometric unity  he's also a prominent yet rebellious cultural   commentator who founded the intellectual dark  web i still carry the sense of i cannot believe   i am sitting here discussing visitations from 

some intelligent life that we don't understand this interview is neither for the queasy  nor the faint of mind there are more videos   some are better how much better as good as you  could probably want for many of your comments i   haven't cut much from this interview i left  it pretty raw long form and unedited it's   a deep technical dive into the physics of ufos  along with the implications of their prominence   in the modern zeitgeist that is that we are 

either being subjected to the most interesting   effective and weird government psyop  of all time or our top scientists are   missing something fundamental about the nature  of reality and finally hal gets about as candid   as he's ever been about the government's psychic  spy program stargate while eric who's a little   more skeptical of parapsychology tries not to  throw up we ran 70 30 instead of 50 50.

sorry   but if you want to do it feel free to do it i've  told you how to do it so you can just go do it   okay you don't have a lot of room to move you  either have to postulate new physics or you have   to say this isn't material everything here is  bold my conclusion is that there is something   there i don't like losing to jesse it's horrible  losing him on ufos i don't want to lose it to him   a second time but something is wildly off so with 

that out of the way hit subscribe and get ready to   unlearn everything you thought you knew about the  material world with eric weinstein and hal put off   different parts have different  activities but you know that don't you the intelligence committee has ordered the  director of national intelligence and the   secretary of defense to deliver a report on  the mysterious sightings of unidentified aerial   phenomena uap more commonly known as ufos the 

reason i found the report fascinating was because   it reeked of conflict i could clearly detect a  voice an authorial voice that wanted to disclose   more and one that said over my dead body and  the over my dead body people seem to be stronger   but losing ground the first branch of the decision  tree is is it stuff that is unintentionally   in the air versus stuff that is intentionally in  the air the unintentional stuff was broken into   two categories that was clutter and atmospheric 

effects the stuff that is intentionally in the   air was broken into the next branch which was  us not us not us was broken into two things   known others and unknown others and that other  is intentionally in the air not us not anyone we   know not necessarily aliens could be coming out  of the ocean could be time travel i mean who the   hell knows but anything in that other category is  astonishing i think one very important thing that   most people in government who study this seem 

to sort of have a consensus on that the public   might not realize is the idea that there is a  separation between substrate and signature when   it comes to ufos and there might be a difference  in terms of the way somebody perceives it and some   underlying sort of proto architecture and so if  we have been seeing these things for thousands   of years we've been seeing them in different  forms different forms and maybe different sources   these days since our technology platforms are 

so high to generate effects they could mimic   and our detection platforms are so well  advanced so we could see a lot more   then it really is a zoo of options and  possibilities and so for example for the tic   tac videos that are so well known lou elizondo  was behind releasing those videos i remember   seeing them in the pentagon before they were  released but there are more videos some are better   how much better well as good as you 

could probably want if you showed me   pieces of a craft and you guaranteed me somehow  that it came from outside the solar system my   first thought wouldn't be technology it would be  physics because everything is so far away from us   other than our solar system that i would be  wondering well how did it get here when you look   at the civil war in the united  states it took place in the 1860s   within less than a hundred years we were dropping 

fusion devices from jet aircraft less than a   hundred years less than a single lifetime it  means that we almost had a nuclear civil war   and it was a very near miss now what separated the  1860s which looked like antiquity to many of us   from 1952 when we have the first fusion weapon  explode it was changes in our understanding of   the physical world that means anytime you have a  profound physical insight post i don't know 1940s   you have to ask yourself what pandora's box 

with a new physical insight potentially open and   i don't know why we're not more worried  about this i think because we've been   failing at physics for 50 years we've gotten  out of the habit of thinking physics is really   dangerous and you have to track every  single important physicist because any   change in our physical understanding  of the universe can unlock holy hell   were there actually updates in physics maybe 

mid-century that were not disclosed to the public another puzzle we would love to have cleared  up is an understanding of the role of aerospace   companies as holders of potentially basic  scientific knowledge not shared with the   academic world is it possible it seems very  wrong to me may be wrong but it's um true   it is true you believe it's true yeah i know  it's true you know that there's physics knowledge   held by aerospace companies that is not 

there certainly is materials knowledge   materials well okay materials which  involves topological physics or whatever   okay but fundamental physics as opposed to  you know condensed matter or right certainly   aerospace corporations have knowledge in the  uap area that specifically are sequestered by   against foia because of proprietary appreciables  which the whole thing was set up to be that way   on purpose right but the idea that there would 

be fundamental physical knowledge that would be   housed in an aerospace company and not shared with  the physics community there is no evidence of that   no evidence for it i'm not that i know of and i  wouldn't that doesn't mean it's not the case but   that would be this crazy egregious it would  change our entire concept of who we are if   somebody kept fundamental physics secret in  the years since we became capable of exploding   fusion devices i would grab a pitchfork and a 

tiki torch and i would march on the national   science foundation right right i don't  i still can't believe that that's true   it would only be if it were the case that  in fact we have mastered anti-gravity   and they're being built by aerospace corporations  then new physics would have to be involved is   what is called the golden age of general  relativity tied to these topics that is   there was this bizarre surge of activity in 

general relativity between you know i would say   the time of einstein in the 50s or something like  that there wasn't a ton of development in gr and   then suddenly there was this explosion there was  a well this explosion uh there there's a famous uh   series came out in miami herald and other  newspapers in probably the 50s the author was   talbert and he did a series where he found  out that a number of aerospace engineering   companies were suddenly interested in anti-gravity 

and that people like dewitt on up and down   really top level physicists were suddenly getting  grants to look at the idea of antigravity for   example the gravity essay came along the gravity  research foundation foundation right and so   it looked like it's going to be a big explosion  but anyway then it all sort of quieted down and   i could take two implications of that and that is  it quieted down because nobody ever got anywhere   or quieted it down because it did 

get somewhere and it went black   my understanding is that there were really  twin loci of activity one of which surrounds a   gravity research foundation in new boston new  hampshire and i guess that was the work of babson   and the story is sort of not really very plausible  that his sister had drowned in a pond or something   to that effect and so he had gravity as his sworn  enemy um you know this story no i had not heard   this oh yeah so babson contacted lewis whitten who 

was coming out of johns hopkins and then oddly a   similarly named individual named bainson with  some sort of tobacco or air conditioning fortune   reaches out to bryce dewitt and asks whether  he will found an institute at the university   of north carolina chapel hill right for the study  of physical fields and particularly focusing on   gravity particularly focused on gravity somehow  dewitt has the courage to answer this essay   contest in the other silo and destigmatizes it 

so there was money to be had but nobody wanted   to touch it because of fear of ridicule from  their colleagues and then there's a famous   gravity conference at the university of north  carolina chapel hill that sort of kicks a lot   of this off it's a tremendous flurry  of activity at a time when anti-gravity   was trying to break into respectability at a  minimum we know that the glenn martin company   where martin was an early pioneer i think 

from the time of the wright brothers   that the glenn martin company becomes martin  marietta later becomes lockheed martin so   that word martin is coming all the way through was  employing i believe lewis whitton edward whitton's   father to do anti-gravity research somehow  tied up with wright-patterson air force base   in ohio and the johns hopkins university  in baltimore maryland so there's something   about aerospace in the 1950s and sort of post 

manhattan project era that's pretty potent   and we're confused by this why was solomon left  schetz the great topologist recruited to be   involved with louis whitten and to have an entire  non-linear group working on mathematics that then   gets moved to brown university when i believe that  these programs are sunsetted so they get spun off   back into the academic ecosystem i don't know  what any of this is so you have top physicists   working on crazy stuff and physicists don't 

know the story yeah right yeah it's like i knew   it because it was weird it stood out the lewis  whitten edward whitton story has never been fully   made sense the world's most brilliant physics  mind of our time is the son of the country's   most prominent and important anti-gravity  researcher of the 1950s do you think that string   theory which edwin worked on is intentionally a  bridge to nowhere i have privately said to you   that string theory was a very odd development 

because it both allowed physics to proceed as   if it was doing something new while breaking no  new ground in the physical world in which we live   i don't really know if you were trying to stagnate  the field string theory is pretty brilliant if there was knowledge that allowed you to  to traverse the cosmos in other words if you   could render einstein's theory effective the way  einstein rendered newton's theory non-fundamental   but an effective theory derived 

from einstein's theory in a limit   to not share that knowledge with the  physics community would be seen as gross   academic and intellectual malpractice yeah if  somebody had that level of knowledge i mean   the best that uh you know we could do in the  in the a-tip program was say okay let's accept   einstein's gr as being the theory okay even  though there are all kinds of arguments   right subscribe by gr you mean general relativity 

general relativity and for this subject area for   the uap subject area as far as as we've gone is  to say okay suppose i treat general relativity   einstein's equations for general relativity  the way i would treat maxwell's equations for   electromagnetism if we could manipulate variables  and einstein's equations the way we manipulate   variables in maxwell's equations you  would see certain kinds of things   which tend to match claimed observations of 

uap phenomena somewhere there's a missing key   for how you can do manipulation of those  variables in einstein's equations without   having to have a black hole in your pocket are you  talking about the idea that you want to promote   constance to field content to be  actual physical fields that can   vibrate and live and move yes i would say so but  then you have the quantum mechanical consequences   when you promote something to field content you 

break it you bought it you've got a lot of uh   you've got fluctuations and uncertainty principles  and it contributes to all sorts of uh processes   and sometimes you get you know explosions of  terms of series things stop converging and   things can get quite bad is that something that  you feel you've handled well at a certain level how can we describe in layman's terms the idea  of promoting a constant like the gravitational   constant into a field variable so a very kind 

of helpful actual analogy used for me who's a   i'm a total idiot when it comes to this stuff  is a circle and pi being a constant you know the   area of a circle is pi r squared uh and so if the  circle had bumps in it or if it was topologically   different in some way pi wouldn't be pi pi would  sort of be more variable in such circumstances   something that you thought was a constant  turns out to be variable when considered in a   larger space of possibilities likewise 

if i ask what is the temperature in this   room i'm feeling a little bit chilly and you  might say oh i think the temperature is 64.   but then we might find out that in fact the room  varies between 63 degrees and the 69 degrees in a   different corner of the room so something that you  thought was a number like we just we had inflation   estimates of 6.8 and then 7.0 percent and i  was very angry about that because my claim was   that you should report inflation on various maps 

the way you show the temperatures in the country   on a temperature map with gradients and isotherms  and what have you if you do that to numbers like   for example the gravitational constant that  constant could be the value of a function   and if it was the value of a function and  then that function became quantum mechanical   you would have to treat it quantum mechanically  it's not cheap to replace a number by a function   or a field we have an entire planet pulling us 

towards these couches and yet when the interview   is done we will get up from these couches  defeating an entire planet the weakness of gravity   is one of the great mysteries of  our lives it's inconceivably weak   true enough yeah and if we accept  gravit einstein's general relativity as   again i'm not quite sure how much of it you  you take issue with it would seem that we are   either prisoners here or that we have to lean 

so heavily on time dilation or we would have to amass levels of energy i mean your point is  yeah we can't we can't do it from what we know   for sure okay so then the idea is  we'd have to have something wrong   in gr yeah something is at least  missing okay maybe jar is okay   as it goes but we're missing something  that would have the effect of   manipulating the variables in there that 

we can't do with any reasonable engineering   approach well so far as i know there's only  one analog that even smells vaguely like   this in electromagnetism aaronoff and bohm  argued that if you pass an electron beam   around a solenoid and pass the current through  it if it was perfectly insulated you would have   no e and b fields out that is electric electric  and magnetic fields outside of the solenoid but   yet you'd get a phase shift in the electron beam 

is it circled this is what's known as a holonomia   effect you guys talked about this incredible  experiment called the bohm iron off effect can   you show me the actual experiment imagine you have  some sort of an electron gun and you have a beam   of electrons and they hit a first mirror  so that they bounce off of that mirror   you have a next mirror in the form of a diamond  and i'm looking down on my table top experiment   and i've got some sort of a detector over here 

if i have a wire here that's heavily heavily   insulated i can imagine running a current  through this wire the solenoid in the center   and the e and b fields would be dead  equal to zero because of the insulator   however when i pass current through  this wire mysteriously the detector   picks up different patterns of self-interference  of the phase of the electron function   in other words this setup can detect whether 

there's current passing through the wire despite   near perfect insulation that was what  was so frightening in the late 50s   is that we were discovering that it  wasn't the electromagnetic fields at all   that were really the important actor in the  electromagnetic story we thought we understood   electromagnetism from the time of maxwell but  clearly the electromagnetic four potential   was really the main actor do we understand the 

nature of the electromagnetic for potential or   is it just this sort of geometrically i think we  have a very good handle okay and so you mentioned   the higgs field looking like something like  analogous to like a wine bottle what would the   electromagnetic four potential geometrically look  like well it looks like a version of the escher   staircase or the penrose stairs in effect those  stairs would be something like we would call them   horizontal subspaces the weird feature of going 

around a circuit and always going up the stairs   and yet never climbing in height that would  be what we would call a holonomia effect due   to curvature paradox and you can go way  beyond that so there are all kinds of   toroidal geometries for example where you have  no em fields whatsoever but you have strong   vector scalar fields and since you have  no lorentz force in the absence of e and b   then how can you detect them well you detect 

them by the by any kind of quantum detector they   can detect phase shifts can detect the vector  scalar potential even in the absence of fields   so there's a whole engineering approach  concerning which i have two patents by the way   and have started a new company that involves only  dealing with vector and scalar potentials when you   are trying to come up with this analogy between  electromagnetism and general relativity to   explain some of these effects are you dealing 

only with the leviticuvida connection of the   metric as einstein did or are you considering i'm  basically dealing with the metric coefficients   by postulating a dielectric vacuum whose  dielectric constant values for say epsilon   mu the permeability and permittivity of the vacuum  can be manipulated and once you manipulate those   you're manipulating c which is one over square  root scrutiny epsilon and so once you begin   to manipulate c then you can change effects 

associated with all of the and so you could   with this with this polarizable vacuum  approach which i published in physics journal   you can get all of the quote tests  of general relativity and so on so   so the fact that you might be  able to pursue that further   by taking into account the fact that underlying  electromagnetism is is vacuum fluctuations   which have the effect of controlling 

the value for epsilon and mu so then   you say okay well if i want to go over  to general relativity maybe i can control   the underlying values for the metric coefficients  so there are various mathematical approaches to   kind of pushing einstein's equations to be not  quite einsteinian so we're not talking about this   this is what has been confusing to me there's  a question of accepting the einsteinian prison   or trying to do to einstein what einstein did to 

newton and then say there's a more fundamental   theory and what you're really saying is that  you're trying to come up with a more fundamental   theory than general relativity in which many of  the things that are hard coded are in fact vacuum   expectation values that are only discernible  within the theory something like that yeah there are consequences after impact you have a  theory that is a greater it's more expansive than   einstein einstein would be you can locate einstein 

with you can locate einstein within it and so   does any of the stuff in geometric unity your  theory dovetail with what you're seeing in terms   of observables with ufos and uaps there are two  strong versions of geometric unity in one case   you put an extra six dimensions as time dimensions  into into the mix and so one plus six is seven   and then you've got four extra spatial dimensions  four plus the three spatial dimensions we already   know is seven so you'd have what we would 

call a split signature metric seven and   seven seven times seven space the other way of  of effectively gluing these extra dimensions is   in is to flip them so you'd have four extra time  dimensions that would be five time dimensions in   total versus nine spatial with three that we  know plus six new ones in either case though   you're talking about multiple temporal dimensions  and even physicists rarely talk about multiple   temporal dimensions because it completely 

breaks our paradigm of what we might call   hamiltonian dynamics the idea that you you can  take any situation in space and then propagate   it through time to get the future when you  have more than one time dimension you have   more than one future you have no arrow of time you  have a whirlpool of time for the first additional   time dimension then you have a right hand rule of  time and so this arrow of time becomes something   you would call a time orientation and then the 

weird horrible thing about that if i may use the   board yeah go for it when you have more than one  temporal dimension you now have a new possibility   that you've never considered which is you could  go back into this extra extra time dimension and find yourself at an earlier event without  ever having to retrace time steps you wouldn't   have to run time backwards we don't really  know how to think about these things very well   they lead to something which is called ultra 

hyperbolic equations and we don't have a ton   of focus or skill around these sorts of problems  one of my biggest concerns is that if geometric   unity turns out to be true we don't know what it  means to be able to hack extra temporal dimensions that's a big concern i mean it would probably  explain some of this uh at least observably   faster than speeding travel see that's the  thing there is no faster than light travel   and we have to train people away from saying you 

think we have faster than light travel there may   be something that would appear to be faster which  temporal dimension hacking which sort of makes it   because a lot of these uaps seem to sort of  mater materialize and dematerialize it will   look there's certainly scope for pattern  matching if you have things like dark chemistry   dark light if you have a multiple spatial  and temporal dimensions beyond what we know   the concern though is we don't know whether 

they're accessible the interest and the fear   has to do with the idea that maybe somebody else  knows the answer to this and they aren't human   so that one's called the time warp i can't  believe you never saw rocky wore a picture   no i know it's a cult classic have you seen it  speaking of cults how weren't you in scientology   oh year years years back i checked into it  because at that time we were doing you know   setting up a remote viewing program we were 

checking into everything silver mind control   scientology whatever whatever i thought some  of the techniques were definitely of value but   i disconnected from them in their mid 70s  or whatever i think what we need to do is   we need to talk about pseudoscience and stigma  and its weaponization and its use so the first   thing i want to ask you about is does our  government have a protocol to wield stigma   as a tool for keeping its programs secret is the 

is the government so certainly there are parts of   the government who consider that to be their job  is there language for the manipulation of stigma   to discourage people from under undertaking  scientific investigations that might lead them   into an area of security concern there  is a language in there there are certain   operations that sort of have that effect but  there are people who are trying to get around   you you personally have been the target of a great 

deal of directed stigma it would seem to me do you   have a sense that you've been that your career has  been directed by manufactured signals certainly   there was manufactured stigma and control we've  had people actually shut down a piece of a program   on the basis that american taxpayer dollars  should not be spent on pursuing demonic technology   you know denshian yeah okay i was friendly with  dan sheehan and admired his work taking on all   these crazy cases against the government 

not knowing he had any interest in ufo uap   there was an attempt to discredit him through  stigma because of his interest in the iran contra   matter right with the christic institute and so  i think he was fed wrong information probably   so that he'd swing at a bad pitch and that's why i  was very interested at the weaponization of stigma   and whether or not you were party to  any knowledge of how that is carried   out so as to keep these programs no i've 

never other than being the effect of them you do want to keep things like the loch  ness monster and spoon bending away from   the ufo conversation if you can and there's  this tremendous force in this world to say   well if we're opening our minds to ufos my aunt  lived in this house that was haunted for 27 years   like i don't want to hear this i don't want to  listen to the fact that your aunt's house is   wanted now the thing that goes against what i'm 

saying is something like cattle mutilation so   either somebody is an amazing sadistic animal  hoaxer or you have to open the uap story to   them communicating something by their decision to  study cattle or leave cattle as presents for us or   who knows what well that brings up this really  weird place called skinwalker ranch in in utah   i think it's the near the utah basin and you  enter you went to basin and so there's a myth   that involves the ute tribe fighting the 

navajos and i believe the navajo is sick   these skin walkers these sorts of youths were  collaborating with the united states government   the navajo weren't so happy and so they cursed  this particular spot of land with skin waters   and the family that used to live on the land would  see tons of cattle mutilations they'd experience   all sorts of paranormal things bigelow buys  it bigelow is obviously very interested in the   you know uap phenomena and now it seems like it's 

this place where they do all sorts of experiments   they have anomalous electromagnetic effects on the  grounds so what do you what do you make of this   something is wildly off this stuff is interesting  enough that it should be attracting scientists   and the scientists who are attracted to this  should be debunking the living crap out of this   if it's some dime store bs but the absence of  scientists is itself puzzling yeah partially   due to stigma partially due to the fact that 

nobody wants to get sucked into some low rent   uh horror movie where two kids see a creature  in the black lagoon and they try to tell the   townspeople and no one believes that yeah the  question is is the stigma manufactured or is   the stigma sigma because all this stuff is [ __  ] we're pretty clear that's a lot of stigma is   manufactured so the government talks about an  internal documents image cheapening and what's   the context in which image cheapening is has been 

used or famously against a woman who was a leading   actress in hollywood named jean seberg and the  fbi is how we learned about image cheapening   planted a story with a woman named joyce haber in  the los angeles times that the baby that she was   carrying was in fact not her french husbands but  was in fact the baby of a black panther they drove   her to suicide they drove her to miscarriage first  and then 10 years of suicide attempts but the   key point is our government does not necessarily 

blink trying to turn your reputation into absolute   garbage if you get close to its treasured sources  and methods yeah and that is not compatible   with saying that we have something that we don't  understand menacing our military its airspace and   our nuclear sites very strange it's hard because  it's clear that there's some element of the psyop   here and then it's hard to sort of separate there  has to be scion there has to be because project   blue book yes and the pentagon report do not 

seem to be particularly compatible in other words   it appears that either we were lying then that  there's nothing to see yeah and we're telling the   truth now or we're telling the truth then that  there's nothing to see and we're lying now that   ufos are here what i find really interesting about  the blue book history is edward j rupelt was sort   of running blue book he was an air force general  and he seemed pretty open-minded to the phenomena   being real especially after kind of empirical 

inquiry and then in 1952 something very bizarre   happened which is there were a bunch of spottings  of ufo spottings around washington dc in july 1952   and then there's a there's a caltech physicist  named h.p robertson who forms kind of a panel   and the conclusion of the panel is basically the  government needs to systematically downplay the   importance of the phenomena and if the public were  to know the truth it would touch off mass hysteria   every single head of blue book from that point 

forward from 52 to 69 when it ended uh became   progressively more kind of anti-ufo and so the  question is is this you know typical cia leaked   dock to lead us off the trail and is it [ __ ]  or um did was manufactured stigma created between   1952 and 1969 actually blue book maybe initially  was kind of open too what happened in 1952   the dc ufo sightings in in july yeah i was  going to say the oh what else the first   h-bomb h-bomb teller yeah a tele-rule on design 

yeah so the concern that i have is that in 1952   we sent off a signal just wait just the way  when north korea detonates a nuclear device   it sends seismic waves through the earth it can't  stop sending information outside of the country i think in 1952 we sent a signal to the  cosmos which is that we're very very close   to being in possession of root level knowledge to  take a software metaphor we are about to become   root which is terrifying if you're a system 

administrator that you've got a hacker that's   about to get full control of the system it's  like your edge.org question which was uh what   happens when we discover our own source code does  something unprecedented happen there's something   unprecedented happen when man first aliens well  people didn't understand what the question was   though it was the final edge question and instead  of giving an answer he asked us to give a question   the concern that i have is that in 1952 

what if there was someone there to hear   what we said in the pacific if there was  something or someone there to hear us   they probably heard us as saying we're  on the verge of being able to come visit that's terrifying the stargate program which you  ran which is a government sort of psychic spy   program ran from 1972 to 1995 and it ended in  1995 under ed may and you know a lot of people   after that said that it wasn't all that effective 

see that's part of the uh the stigmatization well   i was just reading skin walkers at the pentagon  you know where it talks about atip and and i guess   yeah awesome these two programs uh and it  looks like remote viewing is sort of again   revived i guess i don't think it ever really died  so so the question is yeah is that is that um   creating a stigma because you're bundling in  parapsychology um which might be pseudoscience   with the ufo stuff or or is it is there some 

connection between those two things because   there seems like a lot of overlap in terms of  the people interested in the parapsychology stuff   and the people interested in the ufo stuff as  jacquefully and eric davis put out a very nice   paper of six levels of uap phenomena which range  all the way from nuts and bolts at the bottom   to spiritual or metaphysical aspects at the  top and everything kind of in between uh   can you can you break that down for us so what 

are the six levels and how how are the nuts and   bolts at all tethered to spiritual phenomena well  actually the nutsables things but then some of   the consequences of the nuts and bolts things  are changes in what we call ordinary reality   which people who are the effect of  might claim that that's some kind of   paranormal thing because that's the only  word they can come up with to describe it so   there are paranormal things and then it's sort 

of a gradation from there in the things that are   purely non-physical but supposedly quote possibly  psychokinesis i have to admit i have such a strong   visceral negative reaction and it's very  interesting because as jesse will tell you   jesse was interested in this ufo uap stuff and  i couldn't be in the room with it i just i hated   the topic it always felt like garbage to me and i  found out that i was apparently wrong about that   the federal government is certainly tracking 

this it doesn't make any sense to me still   that we have all these sensors and we don't have  great video all over the place i don't know how   these uaps you know could possibly evade all of  the cameras that we have outside of the government   and we have no conclusive proof but assume okay i  was wrong about that at some level because we are   now discussing this in the open so i'm willing to  start to revise everything that is protected by my   desire to throw up right there's this shows 

the the stigma programs it was on me right   i'm being honest and open i still carry the sense  of i cannot believe i'm sitting here discussing   visitations from some intelligent life  that we don't understand potentially   uh but okay so you know a scientist should be  able to consider these things and i'm not going   to be the prisoner of the stigma but i am going  to ask you guys av lobe at harvard setting up his   thing to pursue it but but this is a really 

important question if if you could set up a ton   of sensors how would we know what we're seeing at  high sample size if right now we don't know what   we're seeing at low sample size and i think one  question i'd have for you where i'd challenge you   is is is there some physics that we will figure  out in the future around certain ability around   certain people's ability to see these things  and that sounds really pseudoscientine crazy   but most of the people involved in the 

program seem to think that there's something   around that and as far as as far as uh you know  why aren't we getting really clear pictures   i mean i'm not i wouldn't say that that's  necessarily the case that we're not getting   you may be getting really clear but you're an  average guy with an iphone let's say the craft is   there but it's manipulating the space-time metric  so you're just going to get fuzzy outlines because   light is being bent in various ways around 

the craft and so on so you're going to get   a lousy picture it doesn't mean because it isn't  really there i would imagine i would be drowning   in high quality video and it's it's a great  puzzle to me that i'm sitting here discussing   this i can't even solve this puzzle and then  the related puzzle having to do with remote   viewing or anything like that is if i take  a materialist perspective that the world is   created of material whose laws can be 

understood and you put me in and you or say   in two lead-lined rooms and we try to make sure  that there's no way that any of the known forces   or matter fields can communicate you know my mind  goes to you know are we claiming that neutrinos   are carrying the information are we claiming  that there's a new force are we claiming that um   the world isn't material or the entanglement  is more see this is spread out and and well   entanglement would be one of those things like 

beaumaranov and casimir which has the appearance   of being spooky right in other words if you had  a culture in which magicians possessed scientific   knowledge they would have an edge over everyone  else because they could explain they could   predict the bone marrow and off effect see i can  i can manipulate this electron beam without even   having any possibility of touching it right so  this gets to the issue of advanced science being   indistinguishable from magic and then the idea 

that this is in some sense held by a particular   silos over other silos i mean as a scientist i  either want to laugh or my blood boils well i mean that's kind of a justifiable position for  example early on in the cia remote viewing   program that i set up at sri i was asked to  check out claims of a psychic english swan ingo   had done experiments at city college in new  york under professor gertrude schmeider she   had set up thermistors and from across the room he 

could make the temperatures go up and down and so   i took this claimed psychic invite  him out to sri to see what he could do we had the cork detector and so it was basically  a quantum chip inside a new metal magnetic   shielding inside of steel dewar for electrical  shielding inside of superconducting shielding the   requirement being that nothing could affect this  thing from the outside so we want to see if you   can affect it he affected it unequivocally 

100 percent you had this slow oscillation   what he did was he stopped the oscillation now  what turned out to be even more quote magical was   when we asked him you know how do you know what to  do and he said well all i did was look inside and   then he drew out how things were related inside  that never been published and it turned out that   they were accurate and so it was when i wrote  all that up and circulated around that's when the   cia came knocking at my doorstep and they said oh 

we've been looking for you and i said you know why   would i do he said well the russians have been  spending millions of dollars at their best   institutes with their best people for years no  scientists in america even believes there's such   a thing as psychokinesis or esp or whatever and  you happen to do this experiment and so you know   we graduated from there to having remote viewing  of super secret facilities and project titles   hidden in safes that's how the whole program got 

started it ended up being a 20-year 20 million   dollar program i don't know what to make of all of  this i don't think any of this to me sounds real   now that said you could imagine a one-time  backwards upgrade saying we happen to know about   aliens for a long period we've kept it secret we  figured out the physics the physics has different   fields we're actually able to use this we  call it psychic phenomena and so we don't   have to give our secrets away you could 

imagine a complete reworking of reality   without that real working of  reality i would say this is bs   what would what would be your best guess assuming  you think because you have levered a lot of your   life into parapsychology and you've levered a lot  of your life into physics how would you reconcile   physics with parapsychology which i realize  is a you know a 64 million dollar question but   what would be your best guess do you have any 

theory well we we it can definitely rule out   that it's em brain waves because we put some  of our remote viewers on submarines and took   them to the bottom of the ocean and we got  some of our best results in fact the remote   viewers in the submarine said boy it's really  quiet here you know so yeah i mean if i think   about it in terms of telescopy right for every  long-range field we now have a telescope so we   have optical and radio telescopes for photons 

we have neutrino telescopes which is actually   matter rather than force we know that  neutrinos can zip through a planet and   not even notice it was there and then we have  gravitational telescopes in the form of ligo   and the weak force is going to be super short  range super wheat because it's effectively massive   and we have vector scalar forces and em uh  sorry when i think about e m i'm thinking you're   including vector and scatter potential hell yes 

nobody nobody okay everybody's moved on to vector   i don't even want to call it vector and scale  just potential they're different connections   on fiber bundles and then you have this issue of  gravitation with ligo right so we can we can pick   up super long-range stuff from colliding black  holes by now measuring gravity waves gluons aren't   going to do much for you quarks aren't going to  do much for you these are the fields that really   give us information from distant galaxies and then 

there's the question of are you talking about a   material world that we don't yet know or material  effects that is part of the material where we do   where the somehow we have it for example i  mean you have all these but you know the usual   issues about it not being useful to communicate  information you have this bizarre non-locality   of entanglement but you can't use it for ftl for  faster than light communication right right so if   two two events are space-like separated uh you're 

not so far as we know there's no means of tricking   uh an intention of controlling it  right yeah so this is what it happens   well i'm i'm struggling with this to be to be  honest to say just to put it mildly and i don't   like losing to jesse it's horrible losing him on  ufos i don't want to lose it to him a second time   but i guess what the question is really you don't  have a lot of room to move you either have to   postulate new physics you have to say that there 

are new effects like iron off bone that we didn't   understand during the physics that we already  know but we haven't unpacked them yet or you have   to say this isn't material that there's there  they're angels and demons and spirits that uh   that don't conform to our understanding everything  here is bold there's nothing that simply yeah we   we saw this effect it was robust so for me i've  looked into the stargate stuff and i've talked to   you a decent amount my conclusion is that there is 

something there and yet it feels like there are a   lot of near misses as well and it seems very hard  to instrumentalize and scale up there was plenty   of times when we produced really good data and to  be fair there were plenty of times when it failed   if you don't understand the causal mechanism then  you're going to have repeatability issues and so   is there like a part of the brain like so  like the penrose thing which is probably wrong   but you know this idea that he wrote in the 

emperor's new mind that the microtubules um   i guess that was the follow-up of the emperor's  new mind with hameroff the microtubule is our   quantum sensor that collapses the wave function  into an eigenstate yeah i have some sympathy for   going along that direction so you think there's  some sort of quantum sensor in the in the brain   and do you have a top candidate for the specific  structure well i can't rule it out i mean they   certainly started from a very fundamental thing is 

and that is if you can get rid of consciousness by   using an anesthetic then however you're doing  it must have something to do with consciousness   if this effect exists why is it classified and  why is the government where is it in the stock   market well there are remote viewers who use it  on the stock market so like the classic the good   example is that you guys tried to start a hedge  fund you know just trading silver futures and   you made something like 260 k and i think scaling 

it beyond that seemed to be a big big challenge   it was only a challenge because i didn't have the  time to do it i mean our particular thing i gotta i mean i want to be polite but i also want  to be aggressive my experience with money   tells me that you can win over any skeptic  very quickly if you can just shove millions   of dollars into their pocket by arbitraging  their skepticism okay let me let me tell you   how to do it and you just go do it it's really 

easy actually i know some people with capital   okay just have somebody pick a couple of objects  have them label them mark it up mark it down   and they're going to show you the object the  following day depends on what the market does   and then you do your best to generate a  description then based on that description they   can go back and the next day on the average you  get get your money we ran 70 30 instead of 50 50.   and so it's two steps forward one step 

backward two steps four what's that   that's how we downed in class that's how we  got this 260 dollars which is why did you stop   well the reason i stopped was i was already  working uh frankly 24 hours a day on on training   the army intelligence officers and so i was  exhausted after 30 days of doing this sorry   but if you want to do it feel free to do it i've  told you how to do it so you can just go do it   okay now i'm having a very surreal experience 

for a large portion of the conversation   you seem absolutely cogent coherent  well-informed well-spoken and then   there's this part that just doesn't make any  effing sense and this is the part that doesn't   make any effing sense rolling up in a bugatti  to your gulf stream to fly to your island   is a very powerful argument that you know what  you're talking about bitcoin community has been   insulted by the economists they've been laughed 

at by financiers and they have a phrase which i   really detest but i think you need to hear it and  it's called number go up and number go up means   that when you're talking to an esteemed professor  of economics or finance and they're telling you   that you're an idiot and you say well why  don't you visit me at the yellowstone club   i'll i'll send the jet around for you number go  up is an incredibly powerful argument because   of human greed and avarice okay i think we 

made this point what do you think about you   know when we hear that they're unidentified aerial  phenomena that's one thing but then when somebody   like bob lazar comes out and says that he worked  at a place called s4 which is a part of area 51   on alien reproduction vehicles literally reverse  engineering crashed ufos what are we supposed to   make of things like that well i mean i'm skeptical  to the degree behind the scenes we can check on   his clearances and so on i have reason to be 

skeptical so i can't absolutely rule things out   because everything can be manipulated sure you've  looked at the magnesium bismuth piece from roswell   which was i guess a grandfather who was a colonel  in the roswell cleanup collection this was sort of   left in the safe and the grandson found it you do  material analysis on this bismuth magnesium piece   the magnesium ratios were way off i mean not even  close to being natural it can micro size wave guys   channels you know to me only data counts have no 

idea whether the story of somebody finding in his   grandfather's diary and so on is true or not so  the only data i have is this piece of material   and does it have any unusual properties that that  are interesting well i can check that out and i   found out that it did have this miniaturization of  waveguide channels well below wavelength which is   quite an accomplishment but once  you realize how many materials work   you can do that so so that was interesting   i definitely believe that many people have 

been through the experience of contact   whether or not that's completely in their head or  a government induced hypnotic state or who knows   what i no longer believe this is just a bunch  of people looking for attention well it's good   that's what i'm saying that that makes it the most  interesting thing in the world because it's either   the best if you're the force ranked psyops it's  up there in terms of you know the the intersection   between interesting and effective it's good how 

we really appreciate you being here eric thank   you for co-hosting you were a great uh co-host you  asked a lot of questions that i could not jesse   i really appreciate what you're doing trying to  get this issue out in front of the public and   get it taken seriously and putting it on it you  know it's best foot forward awesome thank you   perfect conversation though it's always very  exciting to you know delve into these things   so yeah i think so too and i think there are 

a lot of loose threads but uh to be content   with a lot of loose threads yeah we'll  chase them all okay sounds good thanks