Scientists and admirals speak out: Decoding UAPs l Backscroll

Transcript

Hello and welcome back to Reality Check. I'm Ross Kulart. Now, is there anything that annoys you more than that constant Carl Sean refrain, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence? It's the It's the line that's been used by contemporary science so much to try to essentially stop any of the claims being made about anomalous phenomena being taken seriously. Which is why I'm very interested to speak to our next guest today, Jim Seagala. Dr.

Jim Sagala. Jim Sigler is a physicist engineer who spent much of the last few years researching anomalous phenomena especially around the Uinta basin in Utah where the skinw walker ranch is located. He's got a PhD in physics and advanced degrees in engineering and he's been involved in anomalous phenomenon research for quite a number of decades and he's got connections with many of the top scientists in this field. What I'm fascinated to talk about with Jim today is you hear it all the time. You hear it from so many people in mainstream science that the subject of UAPs should not be taken seriously because there is no science.

There's nobody doing creditable scientific work to investigate these alleged phenomena. [gasps] But in fact, Dr. Sagala has just recently published some initial results of a research project he conducted [clears throat] in the UN basin using custombuilt devices called Mupass for modular unidentified phenomenon alert system. And what they are, they're sensors that monitor a variety of environmental signals, including RF, gravimetric, gamma radiation, microwaves. And what Jim has found is, I think, bloody astounding.

It's extraordinary work. It's really impressive. He put these sensors adjacent to the homes and other locations where subjects who were reporting anomalous phenomena kept journals in which they tracked their anomalous experiences. These included things like unusual physical symptoms and health effects, precognitive effects, UAP and orb sightings. And these people also reported encounters with various morphologies of NHI.

Yep. Aliens. And what Dr. Seagala found was signals that strongly correlated with reported events. Not only that, the data was so consistent, he thinks he can even predict future events with almost 100% accuracy.

For stats nerds, that's a 4.8% sigma, even down to whether they're going to be positive or negative experiences. So, let's bring Jim in. Jim, welcome to Reality Check. Can you tell me, sir, firstly, who you [clears throat] are? Let's set up your credentials. Let's set you up as a real scientist, someone who's genuinely interested in anomalous phenomena.

>> Yeah. So, I mean, I started out being an engineer and engineers and don't really deal with anomalies anymore. They uh they always want to do everything is nuts and bolts. Um it's not until I switched over to being a physicist that I started to get into the realm of let's see if we can figure out what's going on with these strange phenomena that's been going on. So, and that's how it all started.

Uh I was fortunate enough after I got out of my PhDs to to get a internship with Hal Puto at his his institute in Austin, Texas where he does I would say not cutting edge, not bleeding edge. He's he's way over the edge when he starts looking at things. So that's where I really cut my teeth and learning how to be a scientist, what to do, what's the right procedures and things like that. >> So what have you been doing? You've been actually working at the Skinwalker Ranch, haven't you? you were involved in the OAP and AS studies the uh essentially the um DIA funded studies the studies funded by the defense department. Yeah, I was involved with how his institution was uh actually part of that whole that whole air uh that whole time frame when they were uh Bigalow was trying to understand you know what's going on on the ranch and doing all this interesting physics and science on the ranch and how was of course a big a big part of that.

He was a big little science adviser. So he was actually uh part of that whole thing and and led a lot of the science for that. So I got involved when I was working with him. Later on I actually was boots on the ground on Skinwalker Ranch doing investigations looking at some of the injuries that are happening there and around in the in the general vicinity. Uh unexplained injuries that were uh linked to seeing things or feeling things or having some experience with some kind of uh non-human intelligence that left injuries on people.

That's how I got started in this field. So let's quickly deal with the broad proposition, Jim, which I posited at the very beginning of the show. What do you say to the scientists, the people in mainstream science who scoff at the notion that there is any scientific basis at all to anomalous phenomena? >> Well, it's it's all the it's all the same thing. you in the scientific method, if you follow the scientific method and you do it properly, a lot of the the problems that you you uh would normally encounter in an investigation go away because now you're doing you're doing statistics, right? You're setting up your experiments so you can actually pull out statistics in a in a proper way. So when you you come to a situation like this, you know, you say, well, we have anomalies that are happening there.

We're we're having medical anomalies happening in some part of the country. So we're going to say okay how do we prove that? So first of all you have to have a hypothesis that says why are they happening and then you design experiments. So that's a lot of the things that we we do is we we put together experiments that allow us to really dive down and and show to people you know if you take all the data and you use verified experime uh verifiable type of equipment you have proper scientific data. We interviewed Brendan Fugal on this show a few weeks ago and Brandon was quite annoyed at the idea that many people push, which is that Skinwalker Ranch, like a lot of TV reality shows, just makes stuff up. Um, as I understand it, he's quite rigorous in ensuring and demanding that the producers of the TV show don't fake anything and that the phenomena, including what's being revealed in this latest season's series, which is quite extraordinary, including, you know, that any of the phenomena has to be based on solid science.

As a scientist yourself, can you confirm that that's the case? Well, when I I of course I did I spent some time on the ranch and I did a lot of work at the ranch with other scientists uh from Hal's group and yeah I would ensure that a lot of what happens is verifiable to the point where you can do it. The problem comes in how do you get it to happen on camera? It's very very difficult to do. So a lot of what you're seeing might not be real time but it is authentic in that it happened at some point and it was recreated somehow. So and that was a problem. I spent a year there trying to do science on camera and you know trying to get it you know the things the anomalies to happen on camera is very very difficult to do.

>> So you haven't just focused on skinwalker your work's taken you all over the Uenta basin including to a place called the blind frog ranch. What I'm fascinated by is that you've started using sensor systems to try to scientifically measure if when somebody is reporting experiences with anomalous phenomena. Is there a detectable statistically measurable piece of data that allows you to verify that something anomalous occurred? Tell me about MPASS. What is it? How does it work? What are you measuring? So it evolved that whole system and and the whole program that was invented to uh to understand this all evolved from we found out and we were very uh we were very sure that we were having correlations between when people were seeing things or experiencing phenomena and then when there was actually phenomena recorded by either a camera or something like that. And then later on within you know say 12 to 24 hours they were actually having symptoms that were just not normal for that type of geography that they were happened to be in.

So we saw a lot of this and it was uh we had over 40 cases where we had verifiable medical evidence that something happened to them and then at the same time we had some kind of evidence that they had seen something or felt something or some type of experience. And then you put all that together and you say to yourself, well, if something is actually happening physically to them during these experiences, it must have some vector or it must have gotten come from the outside into their body somehow. And if that happens, we could probably measure it at some point if we have the right equipment. So that was the inspiration to say, okay, let's put some equipment near the people that are having these experiences, seeing the UAPs or whatever that's happening, and then see if we can actually get them to uh to correlate the two. So what do your MUAS sensors measure? >> So they measure a couple things.

of a lot of it is the environmental signals for instance like all the radiation you know radiation of course is is a very very wide band goes from microwave all the way up to alpha and gamma and so it's slow so we measure a pretty big spread of the of the electromagnetic spectrum and we record it like every every millisecond we'll take a snapshot and bring it in and look at it and then we do you know the gamma particles any alpha or betas or any kind of gamma particles that might be near the person at that time. Uh we measure all sorts of crazy things like, you know, we're measuring like the accel vectors, the the magnetic fields that they're surrounded in, anything that could be pertabbated by some type of anomalous craft or some kind of energy that's in the in the in [clears throat] the property. So, you know, it's kind of interesting. We started out as you know maybe just doing you know the uh the standard stuff like the radiation and the gamut and then we said wait a minute if those are getting affected why isn't the other channels being affected like for instance the acceleration vectors and things so we started adding more and more more and more sensors and now we're >> can you stop me there for instance what sorry acceleration what was that >> so the little acceleration so let's just say that there's something that happens in the environment where a craft will fly by It'll it'll move the surroundings a little bit and you can actually pick these up with very very accurate or very sensitive acceleration vectors. You'll get these little bounces.

Um especially in the magnetic fields. I mean you look at the magnetic fields if something comes by you some energetic thing comes by you it's very possible that the magnetic vector is going to get a little bit your gravity vector is going to get hit a little bit. So all of these things could get um put into a system and then we can look at the correlation between all these signals. >> Now Jim, I've got to ask you now. I mean when you're talking about a craft whizzing by, have you been anywhere where a craft or some kind of UAP has whizzed by and you've seen a change in a magnetic field or any other of these correlative sensor data sets? So now after we've done this for it started in say 2018 we've done this for quite a quite a bit of time now and I think at this point we have over 600 instances where we have something verified out in the environment that we recorded either video or seen through you know cell phones or something like that and at the same time recorded something with the equipment that allowed us to correlate those two together.

And then on top of that, um, looking back at the people, having them report that within some period of time afterwards, they would have some type of change to their body that indicated that something energetic went by them. So the way this works, you you've got people who've previously experienced anomalous phenomena, including a lot of your test subjects, I understand, have been people who were working in the UN basin, including at Skinw Walker Ranch and Blind Frog Ranch, and they were reporting anomalous phenomena and they were keeping a journal and so they'd presumably wake up in the middle of the night and say, "I just saw an orb in my bedroom." Or I mean, give me some examples of what they saw. So it was it was a nice little system that was set up for them. So these these devices just sit there and record and they just all in the background record, but you also gave them a nice little portal where they can actually put log all of their anecdotal narratives of like, you know, I I I I woke up and I had this incredible dream. The dogs were barking and all of a sudden there was uh you know, an orb that flew by.

Um you know, I went outside, I looked up and there was something and I and I I took a picture of it. So we have all the narratives and all of this anecdotal information from these people for you know over three years worth of data. We had well over 35 people that um that that actually participated in this and it's like gobs and gobs of data that we put through models and we we allowed us to do. >> So let me cut to the quick. There's a case study in one of your PowerPoints that you very kindly sent me and it's number 316 and in it the patient is quoted as saying immediately after um you've picked up some data that actually corroborates this.

They say quote I am telling you last night was such a crazy night. If I were to ever say I was abducted it would have been last night. It was the strangest experience. Can you tell me I I don't expect you to know this off by heart, but can you tell me do you recall what you picked up in terms of correlative measurable data at the exact point that that person described that experience? >> Right. So the interesting part of the experiment that we we did is that it's sort of a blind experiment that people have no idea what the data looks like.

They never really know. They know maybe two, three weeks later, but they just put these like things in and this one popped up one one night and and I looked at it and I said, "Well, that's interesting." And when you they pop up, they also show the the system shows you what's going on in all the other sensors. And and all of a sudden, I had to see at the exact moment that that person said that like an like you leading up to that point, there was this enormous electromagnetic spike and gamma spike come simultaneously in two of the sensors. So it was like the person had this incredible dream or whatever happened to them. They had this this this feeling that they were, you know, something was going on with them.

And I and I looked at the recording of of the sensors and that popped out. You know, there was this enormous amount of electromagnetic energy and gamma energy in the room. Ju >> just to give the viewers uh the exact numbers, it was 22 times the normal levels of gamma radiation. >> Yes. forgot about that.

>> 10 10 times the normal levels of microwave radiation. >> [gasps] >> Now, yes. >> Is there anything prosaic, anything normal, anything mundane that can explain how it came to be that at the very same time that that person was reporting anomalous phenomena or experience, you were detecting with your independent sensors without the knowledge of that person huge leaps in gamma radiation and microwave radiation. So I can explain probably a very simple way that you can do electromagnetic energy. I mean you can put it in a microwave and you can zap it.

I mean that's one way to do it. The gamma though that when the gamma spikes you can't go to a Home Depot and do gamas and buy anything to do that. I mean that's something that you you'd have to go to linear accelerator or something like that or go to a oncology to to have any kind of gamma of that level. >> So Jim, I just I'm doing you the favor of making the point here. you're you're a very uh uh cautious, measured, objective scientist.

What I love about your research is frankly it's a poke in the eye for the people in mainstream science who contemptuously dismissed the idea that there isn't this kind of work being done. You are looking at controlled blind studies where test subjects are reporting anomalous phenomena and you are you are receiving data independently without the knowledge of those people verifying at exactly the same time that they are experiencing spikes in well isn't that alarmingly dangerous levels of radiation we're talking about 22 times normal gamma. Um, yeah, but it happens over short short periods of time. So, it's not like it's in other words, if you go into an oncology and you had radiation, you know, therapy for some lesion, it's something that would be over minutes and hours. This is like very, very short, very high pulses.

So, you know, I don't I don't, you know, make it fantastic or anything, but it's almost like it's been turned on, turned off really quickly. So, but it's enough for the instrumentation to measure it. And so, you know, and people ask me all the time, you know, should I leave my house? Should I just leave the state? They said, you know, radon is in everybody's house, you and I'm, you know, everybody has it, but and you can see the radon clicking across because there's a geer counter in these devices that are actually measuring all of the electron or all of the gamma, alpha particles, and beta particles. But it's when you have that little background energy and all of a sudden, bam, it it takes off and it correlates with when somebody says, you know, I just had this incredible sensation that I'm being watched or, you know, I looked up in the sky and I and I saw something flying by. That's when you get some really good scientific data.

So you're saying that you've actually been able to over the years that you've been doing this work, you found correlations between your sensor system, your MUPASS sensors, and what people are reporting on 600 separate occasions. >> That's correct. So I have thousands and thousands of occasions where people report something or where the instrument reports something, but it's only when they actually line up to be within a very very close margin are they considered to be correlated. You know, you can have something that's a week old or something like that, but it's only when they're like within within a very short period of time, within seconds that you know that's an actual correlated event. So, and it's actually interesting the stuff that happens that are not correlated.

It doesn't mean that they're not actual anomalous events. It just means that the sensor might not have picked up that particular that particular waveform, but the the human does. You know, we're the humans are amazing sensors. We have so many great sensors. We just terrible at reporting them.

You know, we make stuff up in our heads. But this but the electronics of course is not so great at picking up everything because it's you know it's only time slicing and it's not doing it all the time. So it could be a lot of misses. So we have thousands of misses and out of those thousands and thousands we have you know maybe 600 that were actually statistically good enough to put in the model. >> Let's talk about the case 316 in in the PowerPoint slide that you very kindly sent me before this interview.

And you see a whole lot of different electromagnetic measurements with big spikes. Talk me through those spikes. I I see there's different EM types, different types of electromagnetic radiation. There's um gamma radiation, there's RF, there's also gravometric. Talk me through where you're seeing these spikes.

And are these all measuring anomalies at exactly the same time that this individual reported this phenomena? >> You're right. So we don't I don't really say that's a viable thing if I just have one. Let's just say that I get a spike in the gamma, but I get nothing in the other sensors. And I say that's probably something that is not going to be considered a viable. But if you all of a sudden get a spike in electromagnetic field and you lose like four or five satellites from your GPS track or your GPS system or you know maybe you have some your magnetics your magnetic field kind of wiggles a little bit at the exact same moment then you know you've got something that's viable.

So you're right. So you need to have multiple channels actually getting hit at the same time to make it usable. So Jimmy, you've often been on location when this anomalous phenomena is being reported. What's what's the spookiest thing you've seen? So, you know, it's actually quite interesting that a lot of people claim and there's millions and millions of claims of people seeing things and experiencing things and you really can't appreciate until your boots on the ground actually viewing this happening to people and interviewing them afterwards because you just sit with these people and you interview them and you try to get histologology of all the things that led up to that and afterwards what you can appreciate that these things are not made up in their head. if you can actually find medical marks on them afterwards and you can find vis visual evidence.

So the big thing that happened to me, you know, when I first started this, like I said in the beginning, engineers are trained by definition to ignore all the anomalies. You know, they they they stay away from anomalies, but scientists and physicists run towards anomalies. So we like that. And so that taught me that there's these people are are not making this stuff up. This is actual real stuff because we're recording something changing in the environment just before they have these these incidences.

>> Have you seen anything yourself? >> I've seen one UFO. Um I the problem is you're not I'm not 100% sure it was a UFO. It could have been a satellite. It could have been, you know, something high up in the air, but it was definitely something that I reported. And actually the the interesting feeling you get when your body can't explain something is quite profound.

If you see something in the air that you that just looks crazy and doesn't look like anything you've ever seen, you actually your hair stands up. You get that that frightflight type of uh um feeling and you know it's actually quite profound. >> I noticed they use it in the opening credits of the current series of Skinwalker Ranch, but there's an incredible shot. Is it Dragon who suffered the inflammation in his brain in his skull cavity from some kind of electromagnetic radiation that he was exposed to? But you you see kind of like a horrendous looking skull X-ray and there's kind of like a bump in his brain cavity. What what happened there? Is that something that was one of the things that was reported? >> No, that's it was a that was a um a thing that didn't actually I don't know if that happened.

That was it was a data point that we looked at. um we weren't really sure if it would happen on the ranch or correlated with the ranch. Like I said, we had 45 patients in and around, you know, we had medical reports from people all over the country. And this was a very very typical type of injury that people would develop lesions after anal or after coming into contact with these anomalous events. Tom Keller wrote in a very interesting article in Edge Science a few years ago where he described anomalous phenomena damaging people and in some cases >> people having the weirdest paranormal experiences after being on Skinwalker Ranch.

And it's what's called euphemistically I I think um Jay Stratton's come up with this term the the hitchhiker effect. >> Hitch hitchhiker. And um I I'll respect the anonymity of certain people here in what I'm going to put to you here, but essentially I understand you were on the team during the OSAP BASS program studies funded by the US Defense Intelligence Agency where multiple ranch visitors reported bringing home hitchhiker phenomenon. And when we're talking about hitchhikers, what we're talking about is in some cases absolutely terrifying paranormal phenomenon, dog men, you know, werewolf type creatures. So, Robert Bigalow, George Neap, uh Jim Costigan, and a senior naval intelligence officer whom we're calling John Axelrod.

Uh they all reported the hitchhiker phenomenon, but it's Axel Rod who reported perhaps the most interesting one, and that's nightmarish dog men appearing in their backyard. Blue, red, yellow, and white orbs routinely floating through their home and yard. And this is the spookiest part. Black shadow people standing over the end of their beds and loud unexplained footsteps walking up and down their stairs. Is that the kind of phenomenon that your victims, your patients, your witnesses have experienced? >> Absolutely.

It's got and and the way you say it is actually quite interesting. And when you ask these people, they're very very reluctant to tell you. you know, a lot of the things that the people that we were in our in our study were Native Americans and they are the most profound uh they they had the most sensitivity to this. So they produced amazing data. I don't know what your experience has been, but it's it's incredible.

Anyway, um so when they actually get to the point where they will give you their narratives of what happened and that's exactly the language they use and when you put equipment next to them and they actually have this happen simultaneously with changes in the environmental signals that re are being recorded into some kind of a device like we have then you know they're not making it up. this is something that actually happens that they have the ability to uh bring into their heads and actually manifest themselves somehow. You know, not saying that there were these these creatures out there. We can't say that in a scientific way. All we're saying is that whatever induced this in their heads came from outside their heads.

It wasn't something they completely manufactured within. It's funny. I've I've spoken to one of the individuals who saw what they've described as a werewolf dogman like creature and I said to them, "Was it real?" And they looked at me with incredility and said, "Of course it was real." They were obviously I know you've got to restrain yourself as a scientist, but there was no doubt in their mind that what they were looking at was something real, something solid, something physical that was manifesting itself, >> God forbid, in their home. It's actually it's quite interesting. So we have you know megabytes worth of data narratives that people write and they they get very prolific when they write about their sensations and things like that.

They talk about lots of things anyway. So it's actually quite interesting when you hear it the emotion that they put into this stuff. So they believe it's 100% real. Whether it's real or not, I mean that's something that we we don't know yet. Well, we know this.

Something physical happened in the environment just before they saw these things. >> So, can anyone get one of these MUAS units, Jim? Like, how much are they? I was confused. There are people here in Australia. I'd love to buy one. So the story goes is that when I originally started this in Hal's group, I mean this was all started within Hal's uh uh Institute for Advanced Studies out of Austin and it was funded by this European philanthropist who was very very wealthy and very very generous and he funded mo he funded most of the uh most of the uh hardware and you know the upkeep and all this other stuff.

And I shut this I shut it down about a year ago. I said I had enough data. I'm going to publish it. I'm going to write a book and all that stuff. Well, people found out I did that.

They got all mad at me and they demanded that I get back into the thing. I says, "Okay." So, you know, I made a website and I put all the data on there and I and I made it available for them to uh to go. I said, "If you want one, you you know, I'm not I don't have the funding anymore to pay for these things um through through our sponsor sponsor. Uh but if you want one, I'll put it on there and I'll put on the network and you can do the same." But yet they have to guarantee me that they're going to give me the narratives. They're going to actually, you know, be involved in the study and, you know, give me all that information.

So all all of a sudden all these people came out of the woodwork asking me to uh but so yeah, I I made it available. I don't I do it. It's pure it's pure nonprofit. So I don't make any money on it. I just, you know, and I tell everybody how much all the parts are and I put you know, you have people to put them together and but yeah, I made it available.

Are mass units something that people can buy? >> Yeah. Yeah. There right now it's um I have on the internet. It's something I'm completely foreign to. I don't really I've never done this before.

Um but I you know I we make them and and ship them out and I've got people ordering all all over the place. So, it turns out there's a big community of people that have they have the want to answer the questions themselves because they're are scared to death of what's going on in their heads. You know, they start they're seeing things. They're walking outside at night and they're seeing these things in their in their neighborhoods and they're, you know, they don't understand why it's happening and they just want a little relief. Th this is the thing, Jim, that I I know there are so many people contacting me and there are days when I I just get completely overwhelmed because there's a lot of very good people who are hurting all over the world.

People who are suffering what they describe as abduction experiences, experiences where they're having an engagement with the phenomenon. And the thing that infuriates them is when I have to say to them, well, what evidence have you got that this happened? How can you prove that there was something anomalous that took place? What what I'm very excited about with the technology that you're describing is you've got a demonstrated ability now to show correlations between anomalous phenomena and measurable data. >> Yeah. And I just want to remember I want remind you that it didn't start out like that. It started out where we were trying to understand the correlation between physical events that are happening in the environment and the experiences they're having.

What came out of that is the actual ability to look at it, look at the waveforms leading up to some point and to predict whether or not how they're doing, you know, as far as it's almost like a one of those mood rings. um but for this kind of paranormal activity that they were experiencing to say it looks like you might you know you might be having an event within the next week or so. So to give them some kind of relief and that's kind of the crux of what they wanted to understand. Now what interested me I'm I'm fascinated by the sequence of events here because obviously you started seeing stuff during the OSAP and BASS the BASS studies that were done for the Defense Intelligence Agency Kellaher was involved in doing similar work with Robert Begalo during the earlier NIDS studies and you've also got work now being done by Travis Taylor and um all of his colleagues at Skinwalker Ranch which are also detecting measurable anomalous phenomena. >> Right? >> What I want to drill down into here because I think this is a really important issue is what's euphemistically called and I think sometimes inaccurately called Havana syndrome.

Um, one of the things that um, comes out of your work is the capacity to measure people who are experiencing anomalous phenomena not just in the UN basin but anywhere in the world. And as we all know um, in 2017 or in 2016 there were over 30 US and Canadian diplomats at embassies in Cuba who were reporting unexplained health problems. And the initial cause was expect suspected to be a sonic weapon. Then it happened in Guangzao in China. Similar symptoms in 2017.

And in 2018 you started researching injuries of unknown origin in Utah's u basin and these were stumping investigating physicians. They couldn't find correlations and in the end a detailed scient scientific hisystologology of of the patients and medical records pointed to an electromagnetic energy pulse as the cause and this is how in 2018 you began to construct devices to record these environmental signals. So is it accurate that your work was a response to the growing concern about US diplomats and other civilians being caught up in what's called now Havana syndrome >> actually. Yeah to give the timeline a little bit more accuracy. So they had their their incidences the 50 people that were down in Havana that came back and they they were separated into I think eight different hospitals throughout the United States.

Walter Reed, I mean those kind of hospitals. >> At the same time, Dr. Kit Green, I don't know if you've heard of Dr. Kit Green. >> He was a person that al Yep.

Also works with HAL. He was on the team that I I worked for. He was the medical side, I was the physics side. Uh we started looking at some of these injuries that we were seeing in our case studies and we were saying um almost with high degree of of confidence that it was some type of electromagnetic pulse that was actually causing the injuries and doing this. The National Academy of Science came out with the statement that we said we feel that it's the electromagnetics pulse that is actually causing this.

you know, we didn't really know the people that were doing Avana syndrome and said there was sonic and said, "Well, our patients look more like it's going to be electromagnetic." And then the Academy of Science, National Academy of Science did a very detailed study which lasted, I think, two years, I think 2019, 2000 or 2020, they came out with a statement that says, "Okay, we think it's going to we think it's electromagnetic pulse as well." So that kind of made us feel whoa we're not we thought we were crazy for thinking this and all of a sudden they came out with it. It was like a a big uh anyway made us feel great. >> Okay. So I'm I'm interested because a lot of what I'm sourcing here is from an article that Col Kellaher wrote in Edge Science and it's interesting to me because I know there's you there's Col Kellaher, there's Kit Green, and there's also Gary Nolan. And uh I think you've actually been working at times with Gary and all of you have been looking at these correlations with injuries that might be related in some way to electromagnetic or some kind of weaponry system.

What what interests me is there was an article in uh JAMA the um I think it's one of the main scientific journals in America which revealed many of the Cuba patients the Cuba Havana syndrome patients had something called diffuse axonal injuries. There was no physical head trauma. But it turned out that your research in the Uinta basin also showed that patients you were looking at also had diffuse exonal injuries. What is a diffuse exonal injury and why is this significant data? >> Well, okay. So, basically like a boxer gets hit in the head and you get a you get some trauma to the head.

If you have these little axons that go between your your neurons, they if you hit them hard enough, they split. So like if you have a car accident or you have some kind of, you know, a large head trauma, you get these these tears and you get these little micro bleeds in your head. That's, you know, that happens a lot when you have trauma to the head. I mean, significant trauma to the head. They were seeing this without any trauma whatsoever, which was very disturbing.

So you have a normal person doing their normal thing. they're laying in bed or whatever and all of a sudden they get hit by something and they have an MRI done of them, a very specific MRI, and they find out they have these microbleleeds which are an indication that you have this this ailment. Um, and they don't understand what's going on. So, what's going on? How can that possibly happen without actual head trauma? So, that was something that was a big question mark for them. Now, one of the things that really blew me away, Jim, was in your research, you actually concluded, quote, "Treating the land and phenomenon with respect usually leads to a very positive interaction with lower level recordings on the scientific instruments.

Negative interactions show very defined peaks with profound negative effects. Now, let's just apply this to Skinwalker Ranch. I know one of the things that they say at Skinwalker Ranch is you're not meant to dig. You're not meant to cut into the landscape there. And that there's been injuries reported on security staff and other personnel at Skinwalker Ranch and also on people all around the inent basin when there's actually been physical intrusion into the landscape, cutting, digging.

Can you verify that? And what do you think is going on? Well, like I said, a lot of the people that we've have this study were were the Native Americans that that basically have a very high regard for the land and um they always warn you that you shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do it. So, a lot of this is from the lore from them. But statistically the evidence that you that we've collected show that when people report back what they did that day and how they that you know they like they would go up into the [clears throat] the the mountains of the basin and they would you know maybe bring something back or they would do something and if there was something that was uh destructive in in sense they would come back and the equipment would start doing very crazy things and they would report that you know we're not you know my kids are my kids are screaming the dogs are barking. Um, something is going on. So, they would report all these things.

Very, very negative connotations to what they were saying. But when they did something positive, you know, when they actually did something and they went up there and they were very, you know, gentle to the land, it seemed that they always had a positive type of thing. So, and and if it was just one or two or three instances, that's great. But this was hundreds of instances that you can actually correlate this. And you've got to the point now where you believe that you can detect with a level of predictive accuracy that you're going to get these correlations.

Can you explain that to me? >> Well, you think about it. If you have a waveform that you record for hours and hours and hours and you have points there that people report that they have incidences or some experience that happens. So then you look back in the history of these things and you can say, well, every time this person reports that they had this these experiences, this is the type of waveform that would lead up to it. And so then you say, okay, well, I'm going to start looking for that waveform in the future. And when it starts to escalate and and kind of, you know, become more and more uh profound as it goes along, that's an indication that they might have some kind of incident, you know, coming up very soon or and again, it it doesn't really matter what it could be positive, it could be negative.

It really depends on what the waveforms are kind of telling you. And it's not just the waveforms of the equipment, it's what people report as the day as their weeks go by. Now there's a another saying in science which is correlation is not causation. So you've got a you've got a correlation here to show that yeah you're seeing spikes in electromagnetic radiation at the same time as people are reporting anomalous phenomena. You can't say definitively can you that one is causing the other.

>> No you can't. Unfortunately you can't. So what you try to do is you try to gather enough statistics and switch it in the in the way that you say you know that like they said today's models um AI is is very very helpful in this you use large language models you do all this kind of crazy stuff it's very very available and and easy to use now and you let that do your science for you basically you just provided in enough data that allows you to uh pull out the predictions to say okay well this is happening then you can go back through three years of data and check to see how you're doing if you like you go back a year you know and this person had a profound experience at this date what would it look what did it look like beforehand and you can get you get your error bars to see you know how would that looked one of the things I'm really interested in is the work that professor Gary Nolan's done at Stanford University where he's looking at the likelihood that people who have this engagement with the phenomenon who appear to attract track the phenomenon have um an enlarged basil ganglia at the foot of the cordate pamon. Please correct me if I've made any mistakes in my pronunciation. >> That was perfect.

>> That was perfect. >> But but are you seeing anything like that? Is is there a detectable brain shape for people who are experiencing this phenomenon? Have you been doing scans of the brains of people? I personally have not, but I work with Dr. brain um who was actually involved in that type of work. He's looking at that kind of correlation. What the correlation that I find is that there's like for instance there was um there might be people that would have these experiences, see something in the air, have this these medical problems or something like that, have somebody stand next to them who actually see that but have actually no medical issues with whatsoever.

So two people side by side see the exact same phenomena. One actually has a see the phenomena but not have it like a profound experience. One person has the experience, other person doesn't. So it's obvious that some people are better at this than other people are. So there's no question about that.

>> So Jim, okay, we're coming to the end of our interview here and this is where I ask you the really curly question that puts you on the spot. And the the curly question obviously is you're a scientist, you're objective, you're measured, you're careful, but you've got 600 incidents where you've seen observable correlations between spikes in RF and other types of data are mainly EM data um and reported phenomenon, reported anomalous phenomenon by multiple witnesses. Is it real? So, I can guarantee you one thing. It's real to the person that actually reported it. They actually feel they saw something in the air or they saw something floating through the room.

They saw something. You know, whether or not it's a physical entity that has matter unknown. So when John Axelrod, as he's called, and his poor family, who [clears throat] were literally on the other side of America from Skin Walker Ranch, where Axel Rod had been based, whatever he brought home, do you think that phenomenon was real? The dog men, the floating hooded creatures hovering over the end of the bed, the footsteps on the stairs. I mean, whatever it is, they're seeing something, aren't they? >> They're seeing something. There's no question about it.

I mean, your brain is very sophisticated. It can it can manufacture things, but what is causing your brain to manufacture those is the thing that I'm more interested in, the signals that are happening. But you have to realize a lot of these people that have the skin, no, sorry, the hitchhiker, they got medically sick with things that were completely out of character for or out of the DNA or out of for that particular family. I mean, blood diseases that would are just unheard of. >> Yeah.

In fact, we're talking here about Graves disease, Renard's syndrome, um autoimmune diseases such as lupus, flu-l like symptoms. You you so you're literally seeing observable diseases of the body that that appear to be correlated to anomalous phenomena. >> Yep. and and to the point where some of the government agencies, NCIS, um FBI have come to us asking for our data because they've we've instrumented people that are in that realm of people that can use the you know NCIS, you know, the the um the Navy cops. Um so we've provided them with data of incidences, case studies that we've done which um have correlations between what's happening in the environment, what they saw and also medical evidence that they we've collected for those particular people.

You know, I find it hilarious. You've got the CIA and other agencies coming to you as an independent scientist asking you for your data on observed UAP, you know, anomalous paranormal phenomena. Clearly, there is research being done inside the US government into this anomalous phenomena. And yet, at the same time, we have the Pentagon's UAP office denying there's any issue at all. I mean, what do you make of that? Well, it it all comes down to people that are out in the world doing their lives.

They're getting hurt and the government, the FBI, the all these these agencies are there to protect them. So, they have to act. They have to do something. Um but the Pentagon maybe they're saying you know let's look at the bigger picture you know more threats because I've been involved in briefings of in the Pentagon and uh the uh the Senate building where we actually sat in front of these people all these intelligence people and you know gave them our thoughts and our our research and they never looked surprised but they always looked receptive to the point where they might be getting information from us that we've never they've never heard before, but you can always tell that they've information already that they they know about that. Of course, they never tell you anything.

>> They know a lot more than they're letting on. Jim, that's the fascinating thing. The big question in my mind is why are they concealing it? >> You know, that's that's going to probably come out at some point, you know, maybe 50 years from now. Who knows? But it'll be like, oh, I get it now. >> Well, I hope it doesn't take that long.

And Jim, quite frankly, I think that the kind of science that you're doing where you're looking at these correlations between reported experiences and observable data, that's the beginning of attempts to measure the phenomenon. I mean, what you're actually doing is measuring alleged paranormal phenomena. Do you agree? >> Yeah. The onset of it. Yes.

Absolutely. >> And you're getting results. >> Yeah. It's statistical results. yet.

I mean, nobody says it's, you know, it's it's not the the kind of thing that you can go and, you know, say it's it's like foolproof. It's still statistics. It's still right sometimes, wrong sometimes, but we're getting better and better as more and more people give their data and and participate. >> Well, Dr. Jim Sagala, I for one want to thank you as a scientist for taking this subject seriously.

And I know there are a lot of people out there who are so frustrated and upset that mainstream science spurns their desire for whatever it is they're experiencing to be taken seriously. So, thank you for using science to engage with a phenomenon that is the most baffling and complex of all. And thank you for speaking to Reality Check. >> You're very welcome. Nice having me.

Welcome to Reality Check. I'm Ross Coltart on assignment for News Nation in America. Today we're in Arizona on a story I can't tell you about, but I can assure you it's a goodie. So back in November last year at the soul conference, I interviewed Tim Galedet, a former admiral in the US Navy and also an oceanographer with the National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration. He told me why he believes the UAP coverup is real.

So today, here's an opportunity for you to hear the full interview, including sections of the interview we recorded but couldn't air last year because of time. I hope you enjoy it. Tim Galedet has spent a career serving his country. First in the Navy, working in areas like aircraft carrier combat operations and assisting Navy SEAL teams during counterterrorism operations, according to his official biography. More recently, he served as acting administrator of the Commerce Department's agency, which forecasts weather and monitors ocean and atmospheric conditions, where he analyzed the science behind weather and other phenomena.

So Tim, you've said publicly that you think UFOs, UAPs are the story of the century. Now, I happen to agree with you, but why do you say that? >> Oh, absolutely. We're being visited by non-human intelligence with technology we really don't understand and with intentions we don't understand at all either. And this is just one of those great big questions. Are we alone or not? And we're learning we're not.

>> Now, that really does surprise me to hear that from a former very high ranking flag officer in the US Navy to actually say you're stating categorically that you believe NHI, non-human intelligence, are real. Absolutely I do. >> Why do you say that? >> Well, for a number of reasons that have been coming out. Congress has been informed and they have drafted legislation. Then they've passed legislation, for example, to establish a DoD office to look at it.

They've done the same. NASA did the same with a UAP study team. And we know from the UAP hearing this summer, uh, that there are crash retrieval programs. And I have 100% confidence that the testimony by David Grush and the other witnesses is accurate. >> Wow.

That's a big thing for you to say that, isn't it? >> It is. It's astonishing and that's why I wrote that article in The Hill. I don't understand why more people are are not uh interested in this. I I mystify the lack of intellectual curiosity. >> You know, the moment for me was the Schumer amendment when the House, sorry, the Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer put into proposed legislation language referring to nonhuman intelligence over 20 times.

>> Exactly. And that's that's the statement. And I Congress doesn't act at that level without information. >> Clearly, you believe there's a cover up. >> Yes.

>> Why are they covering it up? I mean, you're probably one of the more highly cleared public officials from the military past serving who's basically come out publicly and said, "You think this is real? Why do you think there is this cover up? What are they concealing?" >> Well, sure. this is technology we're still trying to learn about and it could give us an advantage in any military conflict and that so that's a good reason to not disclose the nature of the technology and I think for the foreseeable future we we don't want to uh release and disclose all of the technology that we've recovered however I think it's about time that we do disclose that we we are in contact with non-human intelligence that that's what needs to be put out there in the public You very prominently sat right behind Ryan Graves in the House oversight hearing earlier this year. You made a point of being seen to support Ryan Graves, the former fighter pilot, David Fraver, the former fighter pilot, and David Grush, the former Pentagon intelligence officer for the NGIA. Why did you take such a public position? >> Right. Well, all those officers are speaking out about the phenomena and and the need to study it scientifically more and and and take policy measures.

For example, Ryan is stood up a nonprofit called the Americans for Safe Aerospace with a very worthy mission to release more information and get pilots to start reporting and really understand the nature of UAP for aerospace safety. What that's a very worthy cause. Now, one of my jobs in the Navy, I was the chief meteorologist of the Navy at the time when Ryan was encountering the UAP off the US East Coast. And and when I saw that these were occurring and I I think it's people know that I received a secret email with the go fast video attached to it from my boss, my boss's operations officer where I learned now that these were happening and occurring in in training airspace and causing near midair collisions. So that safety issue is is important and I couldn't believe well I understood why but the Navy didn't do anything about that and they actually pulled back that email from my computer on the secret network because of the classification issues that we were just talking about.

>> Shouldn't there be I mean philosophically shouldn't it be really important that somebody certainly at your level in the Navy be allowed to talk openly to your colleagues about the flight safety risks that these kind of things >> Absolutely. Absolutely. This is a safety issue. So, why do you think they tried to suppress knowledge of that video? >> Well, it's the overclassification issue that that we've touched on that that these UAP and the crash retrieval objects are classified and it's really kind of a cold war legacy of overclassification. Tim, I have to say I think a lot of people sitting back home will be scratching their heads going, "Wow, a former flag officer in the US Navy, a former rear admiral is talking about the existence of a non-human intelligence." They're probably baffled as to why you've reached that conclusion.

Is there something you know from your brief briefings as an officer, secret intelligence that you obtained? How have you come by this conclusion? >> A few a few reasons for that, Ross. First off, I had a job where I was the superintendent of the US Naval Observatory and I had a team of astrophysicists that monitored the stars and made star cataloges and I learned a lot about astrophysics then and I came to appreciate how large the universe is. And you just cannot conclude when you know that there's 200 to 300 billion stars in our galaxy and there's hundreds of billions of galaxies. To think that we're alone is incredibly arrogant for one and then two, as I mentioned, I saw on a secret email the Go Fast video in 2015, I believe, and and then that just I I knew that was not our technology. >> Are you disappointed that the US government's not doing more datadriven empirical research investigating UAPs? I >> I am.

I I think it's time now and and with the Soul Foundation coming out in this inaugural symposium here, this is exactly what we're trying to do is make policy recommendations to the US government to begin more systematic scientific study of UAP in a number of ways. And and what Soul is looking at is both hard science trying to acquire some of the materials we have from the crash retrieval program so we can learn more about that technology which could have incredible benefits to society as well as some of the humanities aspects. So things like sociology and anthropology and uh and and some of the uh I guess ethics issues possibly. >> The problem Tim is that a lot of the government is still in absolute denial. I mean you talk as a fact about a crash retrieval program and we're talking here about retrieved nonhuman technology, aren't we? >> Yes.

>> And yet there are people in the government like until very recently the Pentagon's spokesperson on UAPs, Dr. Sean Kirkpatre is still saying he's seen no credible evidence of this phenomena. What do you say to that? >> So what you have going on right now are again legacy classified programs, special access programs and without congressional direction and white house policy that's not going to change. And so I I don't criticize for example Sean Kirkpatre because he's just a good soldier doing what he's told to do. The people that there has to be legislation.

So the Schumer amendment is just a musto and then there has to be uh the White House issuing policy. And right now you could it's not coming from Kirk Patrick. It's coming from the White House because the DoD the Secretary of Defense doesn't do anything that is counter to the White House policy and they've obviously to me not have decided on a policy of non-disclosure. >> Can I ask you this? I can understand why it might be decided by very senior people in the defense department that we shouldn't reveal technology because it's a weapon, a potential weapon. It's a potential advantage in a future war.

You can understand that, can't you? >> Absolutely. I I and I think some of the technology should remain classified. We don't want it to get in the hands of our adversaries. However, the fact that we're being visited by non-human intelligence, that is what I think needs to be disclosed. Now granted, it's not an easy thing for a government to do because then they're going to admit that they don't really know what they are or their intentions and it makes us look vulnerable.

True. But I think as a society, we're ready for this. We've turned that corner. >> Why is the Soul Foundation so important, >> right? So we're at a time now where previously UAP have been pretty much received stigma and skepticism and we're changing that. this we're at an inflection point in our understanding of this phenomena and soul is coming out now to advance the scientific study the education for the public collaborative sharing of insights from academia and um and and then policy recommendations to encourage transparency by our government.

>> What sort of research would you like soul to do? Well, I'm of course interested in the technology aspects of the UAP phenomena. That's fascinating to me. But there are there are other elements again. I mean, the socioultural uh I guess implications are great. We're not alone.

This is what we're learning. That that uh that in itself is something worthy of of deep and great study. >> You know, it's amazing. I think a lot of us watching on would think that somebody at your level of seniority in the US Navy and then in Noah I would have thought you would have been briefed into something like this program. Oh, no, no.

Their special access programs are very tightly restricted. And so you have to look at what one's job is and and that that need to know, right? If they have a classification or a clearance at a certain level and then do they have a need to know? Those are the two prerequisites. In my job as the oceanographer of the Navy, for example, it it it really wouldn't have made sense for me to have [snorts] been read into these crash retrieval programs. The obvious question then is clearly the government knows a lot more than it's letting on. Here's Soul starting out doing virgin research and yet the best research is probably hidden inside some of these special access programs.

Would you like to see the government sharing more of that data? >> Absolutely. And that's the purpose of the Schumer amendment. And and that's what we want to see is we want this panel that it directs to convene and review the these programs and make a determination on what can be released or disclosed without compromising national security. Now Tim, I don't think it's a coincidence that the jet fighter pilots who came forward are US Navy. There's a lot of US Navy behind the push for transparency.

Is the US Navy more switched on to the need for transparency and disclosure on the UAP issue than the say let's guess the Air Force perhaps? >> Well, the statistics of disclosure certainly make that the case. And you've se we've seen that with Ryan Graves and David Fraver for example, Alex Dietrich. >> Why is the US Navy different from the US Air Force on disclosure? >> Right. Well, I I think Steve uh pardon me, Chris Melon uh wrote an op-ed. I believe it was in Politico, but you'll have to check about this about the Air Force not disclosing at a level like the Navy.

And I I' I'd speculate, but having been in the Navy for 32 years and knowing how the two services operate, I I think it's safe to say there's there's cultural differences. You have a service culture in the Navy that is about going out to see a ships and having to make decisions on your own without higher headquarters permission. Whereas the Air Force being located at bases primarily and and so and many of them are are are are in the US uh there's more of a hierarchical mindset and so they are just afraid to basically make a bold statement about what they know. >> So it's official sailors are more honest than than flyers. >> I don't know about honesty but I'll say they're uh they're they're less riskaverse.

>> Tim Galedet, thanks very much. >> Thank you Ross. Thanks for watching. Go to joinn.com to find NewsNation on your television provider. And please don't forget to click that red subscribe button to ensure you get more of NewsNation's unbiased and fact-driven news coverage.

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