Science and U: Carl Page, Dr. Yu on the Coming Cold Fusion Revolution

Transcript

today's going to be a very interesting discussion uh I'm here with Dr waying Yu our chief science advisor for all things in our programs regarding uh all kinds of topics like physics and nuclear energy Dr U is always our go-to expert and we're here to interview Carl pagee who is the founder of The anthropos Institute which is dedicated to a clean energy Revolution right yeah I just want to um make sure that spaceship earth is stable uh to support my retirement and uh want to make sure there's an engineering team that is taking responsibility for making all of spaceship or its passengers comfortable and safe well very good so you've got a solid state energy conference coming up that you guys have put together can you tell us a little bit about that group yeah well the um the field had traditionally initially been called cold fusion and that term is wrong and confusing distracting So lately it's mostly been called low energy nuclear reactions or that acronym can also be taken to mean lattice enabled nuclear Reactions where the lattice in question is the crystal structure of a metal and we're trying to help people understand that it's really solid state Atomic infusion energy and the acronym for that is s safe and really we're exploiting the physics of materials and the physics of nuclear reactions together to release Atomic binding energy and that is a little bit new and that's very exciting it means there's a lot of more ways to get um nuclear reactions to happen that release energy so is is this something that your Institute is directly experimenting with directly or through collaborations with other groups well we uh don't have our own laboratory and we like to work with academic and uh usually small business groups uh usually big companies don't need us and big government Laboratories don't need us so we are working uh in the field to help others and we're also trying to increase visibility a lot of the problems with doing research in this field have been public perception and the scientific community's perception of the field so we're trying to spread the news about what's real and what's potentially useful so is the the new acronym and new framing of the concept is that an indicative of a new type of doing lenr low energy nuclear reaction or is it more about trying to reframe it for the public to understand it better um really we have to um help people you know as Samuel Clemens or Mark Twain said it ain't what you don't know that gets you in trouble it's what you know for sure that just ain't so right and hot Fusion is the best understood reaction in physics and we call it hot Fusion to distinguish it from what we're doing okay but everybody calls that fusion and you can see it every day by looking in the direction of the Sun and hydrogen bombs work according to prediction with amazing Fidelity to the math like you know eight to 10 orders of magnitude Precision so we really got that and if you look at what we're doing in the Laboratories to a chemist it might look like Fusion because you can say well chemically we put in some hyrogen and we got some helium out and we got the right amount of energy in proportion but a plasma physicist is going to very quickly say oh but you're violating conver conservation because we expect high energy radiation of this exact type like every Star and Supernova in the galaxy is doing and those radioactive te High radiation tell tailes signs which we rely on to do our work are missing right so probably you're lying to us because this is such a reliable signal a fusion why should we believe that Fusion is possible without The Telltale radiation and in fact you know the initial um push back when this was uh reported in 1989 was well if that was true everybody in the laboratory would be dead because of the high energy neutrons right and uh so it's the unexpected so we need to discriminate against the things that were not and that's why we need nomenclature but in reality the person who commercializes it or gets famous uh will be able to choose some new terminology and I expect it to be get renamed again when it finally gets its recognition in the marketplace what do we call the Flashman effect or something we'll probably call it the uh uh whoever whoever's company it is that brings it to Market you know we'll we'll call it Kleenex or whatever how many groups are you how many companies are you working with right now currently you know we're only a relatively small number of people so we can't probably can't work with more than 12 institutions at once yeah but there are more out there that uh we are only dimly aware of and you know one of the problems with research that has potentially big economic uh consequences is that when people smell money they act strange and often they keep too many secrets and this field has definitely been hurt by having a lot of the teams not cooperate with each other and only share really old information and we're trying to uh uh provide opportunities for people to share information better and because it really slows down science when the communication channels are so limited that's been mostly true because of the commercial interests from the investors and the companies working on it but it's also been a factor that the peer-review journals have often refused to deny have denied peer review to the field so that's something that's fixable and has been fixed recently where you've seen Nature and Science and a lot of other great journals publishing papers in the field for the first time in in quite some time has this recent energy crisis changed people's uh reaction to the field of LR or cold fusion I mean has it have you seen an uptick in interest with how precipitous the dollar is being kind of throttled in a different direction than we've ever seen happen before in recent events are you seeing a sense of urgency and maybe open-mindedness towards your field that you haven't seen before well you know our field is a a tiny segment of the fusion industry and the fusion industry is a tiny segment of the nuclear research space and in nuclear you're seeing huge huge increases in interest uh you know you even have a you know a green piece uh in Finland talking pronuclear now and a lot you know all the same governments in Europe are realizing that um the path they had been on relying on Vladimir Putin for all their energy is a really terrible idea and you're also seeing big changes politically in acceptance suff vision power um four years ago 43% of Democrats in the United States supported nuclear fision just four years later in 2021 60% of Democrats supported nuclear Powers they went from 43 to 60 in just four years I don't know if the politicians realize it yet and of course Republicans have been consistently in favor so that means that actually there's about a 73% approval Nationwide for nuclear power today in 1998 not that long ago it was down at 43% approval so people have gotten to realize that climate change is demanding an end to the use of fosil fuels and there's no reason fision couldn't have done it except that fision requires materials that are heavily regulated and controlled due to some very reasonable concerns about arms proliferation and fusion is sort of a bet against vision and offers a way to do it without the controlled materials and without the weapons proliferation potential and what we're doing is a cheaper kind of fusion that doesn't require the high high energies or the big engineering expenses or the unobtainable materials that uh the traditional Fusion field requires so it's getting attention from people that really understand that we need to destabilize the energy industry to move forward and save uh The Habit habit habitability of Earth so and has there been uh reproducible demonstrations of this low temperature nuclear reaction that produces access e have have they been able to reproduce it consistently yeah if you look at the peerreview literature uh if that's your standard you'll find many many good papers and there are many good books on the subject too especially some that uh we have a list of great resources on our website and there's some other websites that um and Publications that uh show what to a scientist is convincing evidence there's a lot of work in private where companies are getting close to commercializing regardless of whether the the science is solid there is still a lot of um experienced scientists in the fusion committee Community who are quite sure it can't happen and therefore don't need to look at any evidence and are happy to say publicly that it can't NW work but there aren't any informed people that feel that way what why do you so what's the biggest impediment is it the physics it's the it's the it's supposedly physics defying effects of what's Happening there's I mean I think the biggest impediment has been that you cannot buy right now a working system that you could take to a laboratory and St uh a third party laboratory and part of that's because the better companies don't want to sell it to you yet until they take it to the market in a widespread way and there are Research Laboratories that have convinced themselves it works and they've written papers on it but they're hasn't been enough of a um a critical mass of research materials and there hasn't been uh enough funding from the government for this I mean there was actually a law passed in Congress directing the National Science Foundation to study this area but just Congress telling them what to do didn't make it happen uh because of the stigma that was caused by the pathological Skeptics who know what know how an adjacent field of fusion works and don't understand materials um so we need better Theory right now there's a lot of different theoretical ideas about how this is working physics like economics is a field where um mathematicians are dominant on what happens research-wise and we have fantastic mathematical models of a hot Fusion but those models of nuclear effects don't work on molecules you know even hydrogen 2 molecule is a problem and they call it the three body problem when you have more than two particles involved in a reaction and they consider the three body problem hard well any material the smallest crystal that's interesting might be 100 by 100 by 100 atoms that's a million atoms and the electric Fields all overlap and that system is something that material people study but the math tools that they use don't handle nuclear energy levels so they handle a a a fraction of an electron volt not a million electron volts so we're operating without our traditional mathematical tools computer simulations can't touch it this is not a problem for this field alone high temperature superconductors that's a big business that the fusion Community is depending on but the mathematical analysis of high temperature superconductors is just as inaccurate and pathetic as the mathematical analysis of solid state Fusion is and it's the same reason we're have it's the same size problem and in in computer science my traditional field we know that not everything that's true is computable it's called the incompleteness theorem and it applies to all of mathematics I'm afraid physicists still are hoping that everything that's true in the universe is going to be possible for them to model with mathematics but unfortunately we know the universe is chaotic and that there's a lot of stuff that's true we can set up the equations but we can't use the equations to predict anything interesting because the system's too complicated and so we're going to have to rely on actual Laboratories and empirical data and sometimes the experimentalists are going to be out front of the theoreticians and there are many people in the physics Community who get really uncomfortable when experiment shows things that the theory didn't predict ahead of time but that's where we're going to be with this field Dr U that's why I brought you on I I think Dr U's got the best uh explanation for what's going on with elen r although he's not in the field but that's just my opinion having him observe it from outside the field but Dr you any thoughts oh uh the first thoughts is uh you know Carl is so knowledgeable from a and the transformation from new uh from a computer science and engineering and to the you know to this field Al so and becomes expert in the field so I I agree with you uh in the general direction the hard Fusion it's not going to go anywhere I know you you you you would say say it is diplomatic but um from my perspective view the hard Fusion you know most of them try to work out with toac you know to try to avoid to control the heat away from the uh from the uh the material the wall the container which you you mentioned about the material is impossible to sustain Millions degrees right and you you know control them in order to prevent a disaster and something that's one thing so the all the energy focus on the cow contain the heat it's having nothing to do really with uh with Fusion I'm going to mention about the problem with the fusion uh the concept of fusion it's I I do not believe current nucle nuclear uh Fusion theory is correct just like you said you know too many mathem mathematicians becomes physicist or called phys physics physic mathematicians and what they only do they just describe or you can just fit you know experimental fit the data they can dis any phenomenon without the completely I believe completely missing the physics the understanding of of the uh of the reaction nuclear reaction in the physics so that's why um very hard for people to understand but if you ask the people develop the theory they cannot explain thing to you right so I I know so this so why so so that's that's where I come from I find the the problem with now so-called the hard hard Fusion uh effort spent over hundred 100 billions you know over over this these years right you you know the initial some some some government initial investment 45 billions you know accumulated with not all big country big players try to do this one why there is no not even when they can promise so our Fusion will be available in you know next five years even though they say five years first and then become 25 years and becomes 50 years is that something that do not have a resource do not have a Manpower do not have a theoretic theoretics no they have all of them so I believe the problem is understanding the F the concept of fusion is a problem so so I know we are so you are engineer engineer and I you know I have a physics engineering Physics degree PhD degrees or something right so I believe the language we are talking about prop you will be uh easy to understand U the so-called Fusion right now you mentioned about the chem and explanation is different than uh Plasma in the physics right so one say oh yeah we lose we radiation losing matter right chemists say oh we created you know we have a balance you know have right and you know the chemist can't explain this um because the energy levels aren't the energy levels of chemistry we understand we understand Quantum field Dynamics which is but we can't simulate that on a realistic size system like a crystal of a million atoms you know it's it and and learn anything I mean we can set up the equations but then it stops but there are some theories that tell us why this is plausible and one of the best papers was in it Spectrum at least laay description of it in it Spectrum in March which was entitled NASA's shortcut to fusion and this is sort of like the touring machine of the solid state energy or solid state nuclear fusion field because it doesn't actually show what's happening in the solid state Fusion experiments that most people do but it's done entirely with the tools and instruments of the plasma Fusion Community nothing they don't normally use or understand but what it shows is if you work in a metal Hydra material instead of a gas or a plasma there's an effect called electron shielding that where electrons can get in between positive particles and let those particles get closer together without feeling the repulsive colome barrier what it means is that in a metal hydride you get your first 11 million degrees of heat for free and that the triple product figure of Merit that the profusion scientists use is actually Wrong by a mere order of 10 orders of magnitude it's 10 billion times easier than they say it is if you get your fuel packed tightly together by using a metal and you you know plasma physicists don't do metals that's something that material people do so here here's a big you hit him with a clue hammer it can be 10 billion times easier if you guys would look at what metals can do for you and this Field's been looking at Metals the the electrolysis works with one volts right and a plasma physicist is going to say what's one volt going to do for me I'm used to having a million volts but it turns out that the pressure that you get gener ated is immensely high with an electrolysis system and when you run that system a little bit harder than you should for electrolysis you start causing electromigration of the atoms and you're breaking Crystal structures and then you get pzo electric effects which we know can make X-rays and you know it's very common of Crystal x-ray sources that use convert sound waves into X-rays and x-rays are pretty close to the energy levels you need for Fusion yes so you know we're we're using materials in clever ways after all toxs are made of materials so right anyone who says we're just what's what's the smallest toac you could possibly build well I think it's nanoc scale so we're going to uh there's there's plenty of new physics to exploit in these materials and uh you know it's it's very exciting and there's also paths to Fusion that don't involve the kulum barrier and the fellows over at BR and energy that introduced me to the field personally Robert goddess you know he doesn't have the best accepted path to explain these reactions but it's interesting that there is no coom barrier in his explanation no positive particles have to interact uh according to his explanation that might not be right but it's a path to Fusion that doesn't involve positive particle interactions only positive and negative and positive and neutral so you know some kind of explanation along those lines is gonna come out as soon as we have a test mule in enough Labs that they can eliminate all the wrong answers and what's left over is the right answer and that'll happen in not too many years I'm confident good good you know I agree with many of of the you just said uh you know the the problem I find with people understanding of the fusion is based on the classical you know Fusion concept say we can fuse two lighter particles right say hydrogen hydrogen you know uh you know ions you know and becomes say helium right becomes a bigger AR and during that process when you fusing them together you can release huge energy right I believe that concept is problem is is not correct so so that's where all the plasma and now they use lasers and toac and those they try to they try to generate enormous heat try to fuse those hydrogen hydrogen molecules you know together they try to fuse them together they they expecting we're going to release lot of energy I said that actually that's that's something uh that's why plasma physics you know this is called you know you the laser induced the heat you know Fusion reactors never successful because I because they they assuming energy cred produced during fuse them together I just say no energy you can produce by fusing two things together that's not the right concept yeah I mean status in the world depends on your budget a lot of times and the guy with the billion dollar budget is obviously smarter than the guy with a thousand doll budget and why should we be interested in a reaction that can be powered by a 9volt battery you know I think and and know we can actually demonstrate this effect with a 9volt battery and the right and materials that are very difficult to create and Larry fors ley's laboratory uh has been working on providing a stem kit that uh students in undergraduate uh school can run in their own Laboratories to produce the tracks that show evidence of fusion and uh it'll be powered by a 9volt battery so you know so that does create a problem for for getting respect that's right so if you fing light material together you only expect high energy you know what high energy do right make his high uh High motion you know random High motion and make it much more difficult yeah it's a mystery how you can release nuclear amounts of energy because you know when you make one atom of helium you get 24 million electron volts and that's enough energy that you notice it um it's going to rearrange a crystal at the very least it should be sending out high energy particles and right you know so a lot of the the mystery is where we can't see you know with a telescope we can see every kind of fusion that occurs in stars and supernovas and yeah that's the we can assume easily assume that's the complete list but one place a telescope cannot see is inside a rocky planet like our own and our planet very likely has a source of energy that we just simply don't understand and I got a wonderful paper recently uh from uh a researcher in uh the uh in in Crea actually that does a pretty good job on the numbers pointing out the planet would have cool down in a 100 million years if it had just been gravitational energy and there's you know we have a magnetic field that protects us from the solar wind and we have plate tectonics and both a magnetic field which reverses every 100,000 years that indicates there's a big solenoid operating due to some rotating parts inside our planet's core we know what those rotating Parts they're big Gars of molten iron that are coming off the solid core and going through the liquid core what's powering that can you think of a reaction that works better in a solid than it does in a liquid made of the same materials so it's something that works in a crystal but not a liquid um I think that uh our solid state Fusion is the answer to that puzzle because it's reasonable for people to say oh if solid state Fusion was real we would see it in nature and we have these great telescopes and we just don't see it but I think right below our feet keeping us alive and safe from the solar wind is actually a giant solid state fusion generator which also will account for the otherwise unexplained ratios of helium Isotopes in our atmosphere which tell us they're The Telltale marks of a nuclear reaction in the core and crust of Earth that we cannot explain uh numerically based on the available evidence vision is insufficient to explain the helium in our atmosphere and uh so also there's a flux of hydrogen coming out of Earth's core I I I like to give a explanation about the formation of helium during Fusion process I believe so right now we think we force them together false those the you know the positive protons from hydrogen you molecules right false them together but how can you false them together you have to overcome you know you have have a stronger Force overcome electromagnetic you know repulsion right so you but of course in a metal you've got an electron cloud that allows them to get very very close together in comparison to a gas because the positive charges don't feel each other you know that's why the solid state uh you know energy uh State Fusion system I believe that's that's it's already inclosed right and of course much easier you know generate heat which heat is the vibration or or or the molecules you know the or say if stronger energy becomes radiation if less the radiation level energy you you will be generated those the heat will be much much easier to generate the heat much much efficient then you TR Focus falce gas and plasma those kind of state of molecule together to GA to GA energy out the real energy out I wanted to share this one uh see if you agree with it the true energy where is the new nuclear energy come from right the fem you do not get energy energy out the only way you get energy out is you split you break you break the nucleus you break even inside you know smaller particles even inside of the protons nucleus you know uh neutrons when you break them in smaller pieces so now you release that's where energy come from right one of the things I'm really grateful for is one of the U best researchers doing theoretical work in this field is Peter hagelstein who's known as the father of the x-ray laser and and so he's probably our best chance at explaining why you can um create nuclear levels of energy in a metal that is at room temperature on average or maybe a bit hot and also the other half of that question is how do you absorb 24 million electron volts in a metal without having a piece of it explode or getting high energy particles out that that you can easily detect and you know the father of the x-ray laser is exactly the guy that you want figuring out how a crystal can produce and absorb and that's a symmetric problem in many ways um these kind of energy levels the other thing is we have a whole like I mentioned our telescopes can't see inside the planet we also claim to have such a thing as a neutron detector but actually there is no such thing as a neutron detector there is a neutron momentum detector and it can only detect neutrons that are moving fast enough to cause a problem for the detector uh and there are many processes that might make neutrons that are too cold to see with any of our existing tools so there's a great temptation to deny that they happened fortunately we can show evidence of neutron accumulation in inner Metals as well as Neutron accumulation on the hydrogen which creates elevated levels of dyum and tridium and probably leads to the creation of helium as well so we can't see neutrons but we see the ash left over from neutrons that are undetectable uh there's some Neutron reader I counter you know but you have to reach a certain level you have a certain level of energy in order to count it okay I catched how many many numbers of neutrons or okay but if it's a lower level you know lower energy level you just do not even even have any effect than the react you know the measur right and you know the neutrons that we normally are used to looking at are created by um exothermic processes and they have quite a bit of energy associated with them but it's very possible that in solid state Fusion what we're doing is an endothermic process we have to excite these systems or they don't do anything and when we excite it it may be that we're creating we're we're investing energy into making neutrons such as a proton electron capture reaction which neutrons decay in 15 minutes on you know that's the halflife and when they Decay they produce a beta particle which is just an electron with some extra energy and it's about 780,000 electron volts and that's a lot of energy for chemistry and it's a reasonable amount of energy for plasma physics but if you could somehow get a proton 780,000 electron volts it would love to suck in its electron and turn into a neutron and then you would have an endothermically produced Neutron that's really as cold as a neutron can possibly be and the system around it would be really cold too not moving around very much because that's what coldness means at the atomic level and it might very well be perfectly positioned for another proton to tunnel in on top of that Neutron and create a deuteron and release a lot of energy and that process can repeat deuterons could become trium trium could be hyd hydrogen 4 and hydrogen 4 if it exists it might would would probably beta Decay into helium for and that would explain our results with no positive particle interactions no coolum barrier breaking so that might not be right but y but it's less implausible than some ideas yes so so so that's why based on the I understanding the fu energy comes from the split more deep uh deeper level of particles so so that's where you create energy you cannot fuse them so in order to to break deeper level the energy so this like use solid state material actually is better right instead of use use hydrogen gas or something you know and create of plasma you know clouds and try to do something so definitely you are having the better Direction uh and I don't know whether you should call it Fusion if what you're doing is um Ultra cold Neutron synthesis followed by Neutron accumulation no no no no because you yeah you're right because you you think about it when you lose Neutron so what do you have so now you you got you got a protons right so now you have you have a protons those ions so so what what they do they cannot exist in in natural world freely if they were form new elements so that's how new elements were created so when we talking about the nuclear reaction hel is a new new elements generated during the fusion reaction is that right but instead of fusing them together so that's where I think that's exactly what's wrong without c f no it's a c coing after nuclear reaction you not fishing it's basically split not just at atom level it's a subatomic level when you split that one so now you create the the iron the charged subatomic particles so what these particle do once they very hot they cannot fuse they cannot form together it's not but when they cooling down that's where when they cting down the charge particle now started forming forming a new elements different number of protons different number of uh you know uh uh neutrons now that's that's where they form helium so helium is indication of new elements created during fusion reaction so what you're describing is a kind of room temperature nuclear fision that creates Elemental transmutation right yes but yes but this fion is not a traditional we talking about the fusion you know split the molecules and you you come out with the atoms this has to split deeper level of the protons and neutrons I split much deeper level so that's why you get higher energy so now people say where does energy come from nuclear energy come from that's the key magnetic repulsion when we when we when when things form together the force is not because you have a strong force you know overcome magnetic repulsion no no it was all the particles actually we saw the proton neutron uh and the electron they all made by magnetic particles they the reason they form together every single atoms in Natural State they form together it's not because we have ex external Force overcome it's because they they adjust their directions the natural attract each other so what happens when you have a nuclear explosion when you apply heat you break the bond so what happens original negative and positive attract part now they split you know you know when magnet split it becomes smaller magnets it has positive negative right so now the things with high impact so they cannot form together what happens energy increase because we have a magnetic repulsion besides kinetic motion and magnetic rep so that's where you have a you have a a closed the pressure device Clos them so the energy R only increase because whenever you're passing closer to each other the magne PO you're pushing your way and the by by doing that one so that's where energy released that is by the bonding Force what is the bounding Force at fundamental is magnetic force I agree the bottom of the value of stability is iron so whenever you push light materials in the direction of iron or you push heavy materials by breaking them up to be more like iron you get energy and that is have similar language similar level so now now we can say so why why we can do this the low energy so why we not you know cold fusion right we not because sometimes people confuse in order to so if you measure a nuclear fusion in the sun you know in the centers of sun 27 million uh million degrees right but but if you had if you had a uh if you had a furnace size piece of the Sun in your basement um you would be very unhappy with its performance because it would make like one or two Watts the only reason right from the side is it's very very very thick yes so we need to mass much faster than the sun I agree with you yes so so so that's why but however we talking about say you said solid state nuclear reactor right or we say so I would I like the low energy part if you just you said you know if you put a smaller size of the sun in the basement right you only gener very very what is very disappointing uh wordss of the electricity right because good news is if we if we do have really cold neutrons around they don't leave the environment of the reaction because they'll the cross-section is incredible so they'll either interact with hydrogen making that heavier and eventually creating helium or they'll interact with nickel or Palladium metal that we've used to um host the reaction and you can make nickel as heavy as you want eventually it'll turn into copper but it's not going to make anything radi active and um and by the way if you make nickel heavier that does supply energy because it's you're making it more like iron um but not as much energy as if you make helium now one blind spot that we have is that we can't see um anything that is so low level and so we tend to forget that it could exist because we don't have instruments that can measure it and he oh another blind spot that plasma physicists have is the one of the most important things that goes on in a material or Crystal are phonons and phonons is simply the quantum uh a particle that represents sound and sound you know bounces around inside a crystal and sound waves can overlap and they can reach pretty high energy levels and a lot of times like we have crystals that you can excite with sound transducers and produce X-rays and x-rays are pretty close to Fusion energies yes so um yeah you know the whole question of what of treating phonons seriously and imagining what they can do for your nuclear reaction is something plasma physicists haven't done the sound doesn't exist in a plasma there's a related phenomenon but it's pretty different so right I a feeling that we're going to be able to engineer these things well when we really understand what's happening with the phonons so yeah so the reason I said you know us So-Cal n low energy still nuclear fusion or I would say because when we're talking about Fusion means you already have elemental transformation you create a new elements right right so now just measure Neutron Neutron just one particle you cannot say but you of course you said oh we lose Neutron may may have some new thing but you may gain Neutron from somewhere else right but when you truly form new elements so that's say helium or some other so now you know you have a other other precious metal lots of so now you know you have a f and well a lot of the Japanese researchers have taken you know there's a great uh set of papers that show which transmutations have been observed in these systems and a lot of elements that are pushed up one two or four uh units of atomic mass and so that's a very good clue and it's also um been people are attempting to commercialize the reaction to get rid of atomic waste such as unstable cesium much much quicker and that seems to be a pretty useful thing the next problem is getting all your cium in the same place so you can work on it but it doesn't seem to be difficult to um accelerate the stabilization of unstable uh elements so well this has been a fantastic conversation and I've yeah I really appreciate your time thank you and uh is there is there going to be you said on the website is there going to be a demonstration of this uh LR at the event we we expect so uh the company brillan energy for one is planning to demonstrate a little Sterling engine running on nuclear energy in the uh in the facility and um of course that's solid state Fusion so you don't have to worry about anything radioactive or any high energy particles coming out and we um will have a lot of people presenting papers there's great science from many uh government Laboratories as well well as a number of commercial Laboratories and there will be a few theoreticians as well talking about how we can wrap mathematics around this problem it's not hopeless uh and you know I think we will um also have a few representatives from uh companies that can be in the supply chain providing uh laboratory equipment and um heat engines and uh the the uh Services needed by Laboratories so we're expecting to have and also people selling simulation technology modeling technology that may be able to uh wrap uh help people uh anticipate how their equipment will perform and design better systems thermodynamically and even on a Quantum uh mechanics level you know there are many tool vendors that are uh ripe for being used for this field so it's going to be a really great meeting and the facility the Computer History Museum is um a fantastic place if you love the history of technology and if you do love the history of science watching a paradigm change happen is something that you don't get to do very many times in your career there aren't going to be many moments in your life where you know something is true that most physicists disagree with yeah so don't miss it yeah and I'm hopefully we can continue these discussions there too I look forward to it a lot of interesting thoughts here today thanks I appreciate you guys have asked really great questions and I appreciate it take care take [Music] [Applause] [Music] care [Music]