Skinwalker Ranch, Oak Island curse and Kona Blue | Reality Check

Transcript

[Music] hello and welcome back to reality check on a day when the UAP caucus in Congress is having a secret meeting in a skiff to hear from the new head of Arrow Tim Phillips and also the gentleman who presides over America's darkest deepest Secrets the controller of the special access programs both these gentlemen are being investigated and questioned by members of the UAP caucus in the house who are asking I hope some curly questions about the UAP mystery this is also a day by the way where intriguing documents have been released by the Department of Homeland Security revealing the existence of a proposed secret program called tantalizingly owner blue and it was a program that was intended hoped to be able to investigate a supposed reverse engineering program of alien spacecraft it didn't happen and a lot of people are saying including Aro that nothing came of it but can we believe them believe me reality check will be chasing down that story like a dog on a bone but first today let me take you to another intriguing mystery just off the coast of Nova Scotia Canada there's a privately owned Island that has been the center of mystery and Intrigue for hundreds of years Oak Island was first settled by folk from Massachusetts after the mainland Chester area was settled in about 1761 in the early days it was known as Smith Island later Gloucester Island and then in the late 17th century it was 18th century my apologies it was uh Oak Island now for reasons that I'm hoping our interviewees today will explain ever since the mid 1800s Oak Island has been the center of feverish speculation about hidden pirate treasure and it's all about um a settler called Daniel mcginness who in 1857 wrote a book that told the legend of the treasure of Oak Island for the very first time and this beautiful piece of Island Real Estate hasn't been the same since there's claims of buried pirate treasure there's even been claims that Francis Bacon might have buried some of the beautiful manuscripts of William Shakespeare's plays on the island Heaven only knows why but more intriguingly than that if that doesn't tantalize your curiosity there's also claims that the Ark of the Covenant no less may be buried there even more thrilling and this is the part I love there's also a curse on the treasure it reportedly states that seven men will die in the search for the treasure before it is found so ever since the 1850s different treasure Hunters have scoured Oak Island hunting for the treasure the most recent uh owners include a treasure hunter by the name of Dan blanken Ship who partnered with a company called Oak Island tours run by David Tobias that company dissolved and in February 2019 a new partnership was formed with a company called the Michigan group this group included Brothers Rick and Marty lagina now Rick and Marty are joining me now their History Channel show has followed the story of this now 226 year-old mystery they've just wrapped up their incredibly 11th season come on Gentlemen please tell me that after 11 Seasons The Curse of Oak Island has finally found the treasure you are the number one non-fiction show on US Cable TV Rick and Marty Lea thank you for joining me tell me why is the show so successful Marty I'm going to let you take that no I was going to tell you to take that I'll have a go have a go a go I think it's successful because it is genuinely real um you know my understanding from the cameraman we talked to is a lot of reality TV is only partially real this thing is 100% real they approached us we didn't even want to be on TV uh and so what we're doing I think resonates with people that would be my answer I think the thing forgive me for interrupting there but I I think the thing that I started out researching when I looked at this show you know you always hear these stories with these reality shows there's there's even allegations that things sometimes get planted to make the show more interesting but it really got me one of the things that really got me was early in the program you found a granite Stone 90 ft down what you call the money pit and it was carved with peculiar symbols there's a code on the stone but one attempt to translate the stone says quote 40 ft below 2 million pounds are buried now how sure are you for example about claims that that stone carries such a code it it's a difficult answer because we don't currently have possession of the stone it was seen by many people that ultimately ended up in John Smith's fireplace one of the residents of the island uh and then amazingly it disappeared and we have copies um it was written about but even as we speak we don't know that the glyphs on it are accurate um but I truly believe that a stone was found and um that day uh the stone was recovered right around 90 ft and some stories uh suggest higher up but then at that point The Money Pit shaft flooded and with seawater and uh the every Searcher since then has been styed um was it a joke was it a you know come hither thing you know keep digging and spring the Trap yeah I think based based on our 10 years or 11 years out there I think the most likely thing is that that was a plant in order for people to keep digging in that very location and it sure worked because shortly after that some sort of flood mechanism was triggered I mean it worked beautifully um and it was tantalizing enough so that's what happened and that's part of the complexity of what we're dealing with but gentlemen can you help me here I always thought Pirates just hung around the the Caribbean or the Caribbean as you Americans call them um what's the story with pirates coming up to as far as Nova Scotia why on Earth were pirates ever conceivably in that part of the world actually um the route past Nova Scotia was following the uh Gulf Stream back so Pirates would have been using it potentially all the time to go back to Europe but furthermore part of this mystery is that coconut fiber has been found extensively on this island and seems to have been utilized to help with filtering the water to blood the Trap well coconut fiber does come from the Caribbean so there are there are certainly TI although at this juncture Rick we don't think it is Pirates but could no we think it's far too complex the the engineering associated with what we have come to understand and or believe it's far too complex there's nothing in the world that would suggest U this was a a pirate Endeavor there's no similar um no similar place where where this type of work was done not by PIR so why do we think there's even a possibility that there is a treasure buried deep underground Oak Island I'm gonna let my brothers yeah how long do you have I mean I'm I'm happy to hear it okay there are all kinds of people who will tell you their own theories and with reasonable credibility as to why but there are two things at this juncture in my mind and I'm sort of the skeptic at this juncture there are two things that make me think it's quite possible probably even one is the complexity what we keep uncovering and the artifacts that keep going back farther and farther into history it's just something very odd and very difficult to accomplish happened there so that would be one but the bigger one since I think science is very important we continuously get samples of the water at depth that has um abnormal concentrations of silver gold copper zinc and the scientists doing the work it's coming from some rather large source that we haven't found yet so that's why I think there's something there so just explain to our audience who may not be familiar with the show you've referred to something about the complexity of the tunnel system that you think is underneath the Oak Island potentially to conceal the treasure what have you found and how does it demonstrate complexity your turn Rick well you have to believe in the histo somewhat believe in the historical narrative that you know when the um initial companies explored uh they triggered a booby trap system uh triggering the intrusion of sea water into the bottom of the money pit shaft and uh once they realized it was salt water they went down to the shore uh Smith's Cove and they uncovered uh what they believed to be box drains U Stones flag stones on end with a cap rock it it appeared to them that they had some party or parties had removed the entirety of the beach over almost 200 feet and reconstructed the beach to facilitate the uh introduction of seawater at depth at 90 ft in The Money Pit shaft that's quite a feet of engineering you're 500 some feet away from Smith's Cove to The Money Pit um and like I said you have to believe at some level you have to believe again in the historical narrative those initial peoples uh saw what they saw uh recorded it unfortunately not sufficiently well enough uh and and the old adage holds right they weren't looking for uh proof of engineering complexities they were looking for a treasure they figured if someone had gone to these Great Lengths surely something valuable uh perhaps exceedingly valuable is buried at depth so uh but in terms of our work um you know it's the what we've uncovered in Smith's Cove we're still uh trying to prove um original work but uh again everything that we have seen the carbon dating the application of science um c14 testing dendr chronology all of that points to as Marty said earlier very early attempt at disguising or protecting something of immense value yeah so roll me back roll me back to 1857 to the story of this young man Daniel mcginness what did he find and what prompted the book that he wrote about the legend of supposedly buried treasure actually you need to go back to 1795 with Daniel mcginness uh he and a and a group of boys went over to that island and what's that just three three boys but but they weren't that's the story they weren't boys they were young men right but the point is it started in 1795 and they came back at the turn century and and were convinced that they had uncovered something very substantial and dug and dug as far as they could and then the from there on it gets incredibly complicated but all kinds of people have followed in their footsteps trying to uncover this one thing we know for sure is the workings underground at this point are incredibly extensive just from The Searchers which makes our task even harder but I mean President Roosevelt was one of the Searchers John Wayne was involved all kinds of personalities went after this treasure and even my my my Aussie forbear Errol Flynn apparently was one of the people that dug he tried to buy the is he would there wouldn't have been enough women on the island for Errol Flynn I suspect but the but um the thing I I just want to clarify did did mcginness and his friends did they actually find The Money Pit at the time did they see the wooden structure as it was even then or is it possible that the money pit was built afterwards no no that's not possible the uh what they discovered was not crib it was uncried but had been they could see pick marks in the clay as they dug down they were Excavating a former excavation uh again Rick is right that intrigues me so so you've got you've got the Chester area on the mainland was settled in about 1761 I understand is it is the suggestion here that as a young boy he's going there in the 1790s it was already in existence the money pit at that time somebody someone had come there and built these elaborate constructions into the ground on Oak Island even before British settlement on the island probably well before wow who was it well if you can answer that we'd like you to come up and help us this is where you got me in I mean I I was doing my research and reading about Daniel mcginness and initially I thought well surely these fortifications were constructed years after mcginness made the discovery but the thing that intrigues me is you've got a young man and his friends going across to this island in the late as you say 1790s he writes the book in 1857 but whatever these fortifications are whatever this construction is it was there before British settlers came across from Massachusetts 100% appears to be r y wow yes so please tell me what are the most intriguing discoveries that you've found during your search Marty you go first Rick well look uh just this year I believe these episodes have have run so they get mad at us sometimes for W the cat out of the bag but just this year we found um several things that date back to Medieval Times and some things that date back farther than that inexplicable things like Roman coins um buttons that that our archaeologist tells us were out of fashion by the 1600s so something was going on in this island way way back and that is really the Intrigue um we found a a cross Red Cross that is Medieval apparently um and might have been associated with this group called the Knights Templar uh a lot of it just seems unbelievable but yet here are the artifacts so um we're trying to pull it all together I I believe we will now that's where my BS detectors I have to admit went on to high alert because not only is there a claim that Francis Bacon might have buried the manuscripts of Shakespeare there I want you to explain that one to me but there's also this claim that was very recent that that there might in fact be a location here for the Ark of the Covenant no l please explain turn look at the end of the day we can't prove any of that okay not yet but uh there have been some very credible research researchers and the research they've uncover that make it very credible uh pet aminon for one was one of the first people to come and present the idea of Nolan's cross representing the cabalistic tree of life I always believe that Nolan's cross was important um I think there had to have been a map on top of the ground if people were to come back and retrieve it there had to be a way to after after an extended period of time you would have to have some way to look locate the the site and uh I I think uh the one thing that is exceedingly interesting to me is there are still four or five credible theories uh that fit the timeline they fit the dating of the artifacts they fit the the the uh the P the personalities of the time uh there's always been by by very uh uh amazing people that there was this belief that bacon actually was Shakespeare or he in and Ben Johnson for instance and and a group of others actually wrote The Shakespearean folios and that bacon intended for to create a new Atlantis um several of his manuscripts suggest that and uh the man was a genius by all accounts and actually wrote A Treatise on uh protecting manuscripts with Mercury um in in a in a watery environment uh so it lines up that that is possible but there's nothing that we have uncovered to date that prove uh that it's The Shakespearean folios or that it's the Arc of the Covenant but the research continues and I have told Marty and others that I think after 226 years of digging and drilling I think the one sure way to write the final page of that Reader's Digest article is through research and the research is indicating that these four or five theories are and remain credible that's part of the story forgive me for interring that's part of the story I'm so sorry you speak first my friend no it's okay I I just would this it's why we're different though Rick and I he wants to research this and figure it out that way I want to dig I want to dig and find it we have a different philosophy but go ahead interruped part of the uh the thing that intrigues me about the whole story Rick is as I understand it when you were a young boy you read this reader digest article that you're referring to which told the story of Oak Island to you for the first time I think you were sitting in the dentist or something and that captured your imagination is that is that the correct story it is uh there January 1965 reader digest article it was a story about Oak Island a five and a half pages I believe and when I got to the last page um I was disappointed because I wanted to know you know the answers and uh came home and showed it to Marty and you know we he can speak for himself but I was fascinated but as I have said many times it wasn't like I said okay uh when I get to be older I'm going to dedicate my life to this Pursuit that wasn't the case I just wanted to to know I wanted the answers I who doesn't love a good book but you you don't quit on the last chapter in a good book you want to read the the final page and and that's what we Endeavor to do uh write the final page and uh as Mar said earlier there's been some incredibly talented smart capable um almost VIs Visionary people associated with this search for 226 years and like you Ross they were captivated by that by this story and uh it's amazing how it tags into people and it you asked why the show was successful earlier and I think it's it's exactly what Marty said but it's there's one more component to it and that is that it appeals to everyone on a different level sure there's the treasure component then there's the search for real answers then there's a historical component then there's a science component there's a technology component there's a personality component because as you said even arol Flynn was captivated by this place um Franklin delanor Roosevelt we have a letter when he was on a battleship out in the U out in Mahone Bay well off of Mahone Bay uh when the war started he intended to come to the island to revisit it uh after had been on the island as part of the initial one of the initial searches and uh he writes a letter which we still have and he says I would love to come back to that romantic spot but unfortunately you know the the the world events have have taken taken me away kind busy right now yeah so it's it's it's stunningly captivating but it is for different people different reasons why Marty what I quite like about the relationship between the two of you as brothers is in the show you're the kind of nerdy science guy who just when I'm thinking oh this is just rubbish you know you really are stretching my credibility here you come in and you say look we've got to talk through the science here you know and and it's something that you constantly come back to and I admire both of you for the honesty that you show in admitting that that really there isn't a huge amount of evidence to support a lot of the broader conspiracies and theories that are attached to the Oak Island story but you still constantly come back to the science don't you Marty absolutely thank you I I view that as a compliment uh I am somewhat a skeptic and I what I can believe in and what I spent my life believing in is Art science and and there has been just enough on Oak Island to keep us going um if there weren't I would say to Rick look we're done I mean at least I'm done but there is plenty and there's more that has to be figured out so yes thank you for that observation Rick is just as smart smarter probably but he is much more of a romantic than I am and so we I think we make a good team it's funny here what he's not saying here Australia I'm so sorry I'll let you talk I apologize just a quick thing what he's not saying though is if you were to plot U using science if you were to plot Marty's belief in the O Island mystery on a bell-shaped curve he started on the left side of the bell-shaped curve he's no longer there right Marty that's that's absolutely true I'm at least over the top you know it's funny though because I mean I think the thing that I think attracts a lot of people including kids who love the show is your two brothers who had a dream one of you had a dream after reading the story as a young kid to go out and search for Hidden Treasure and it's funny I I I I've had a very similar experience myself as a journalist here in Australia there's a lot of talk about Portuguese and Spanish sailors and soldiers visiting Australia even before British settlement and the Dutch supposed Dutch discovery of of Australia and there's rumors of Spanish treasure hidden in caves all along the Australian coast and I've once spent quite a lot of money over a certain Australian billionaire businessman's money trying to find this hidden treasure and these hidden Spanish vessels but the Intriguing thing is just off the coast of Western Australia there's there's a a beautiful gallion called the Golden dra the Golden Dragon which was wrecked off the coast of Western Australia and and a lot of gold and treasure was indeed found by amateur divers and recovered so every now and then I just want to give you guys some hope every now and then these treasure stories do come true yes thank you for that yes and I think you put your finger on basically something that exists in human nature find somebody who doesn't like a treasure hunt I don't think they exist you know I mean it pulled you in obviously and uh it's got a pretty good hold on us is there ever going to come a time though I mean what are you doing now it's you've just finished the 11th series there's speculation there's going to be a 12th I mean some people might suggest you're flogging a dead horse you haven't found the treasure after 11 episodes 11 series what are you going to do when are you going to Quin are you going to call it a day ah we've talked about this yes we have two CR two criteria when it becomes not fun anymore we've we've looked each other in the eye and said this becomes drudgery not g to do it and the other one is when we can't Advance the ball when we feel like we've done what we can and we're not advancing the ball then yes hand it off to somebody else it isn't going to go away uh there are plenty of people write us all the time and tell us how we're missing the we're missing the boat this is what we so but there may there may come a time and it may be fairly short if we don't figure it out where we hand it off yes we have to I've got to ask both of you before we go do you think there is a treasure Down Below in Oak Island who are you asking both of you Mar Marty you go first or I'll go first go ahead the answer to that is Define treasure um you know do I believe that here's what I here's what I well and truly believe I am not a historian of any record at all however what I do know what reading I have done there is no place in the world where temporal wealth has been if you accept the engineering that we believe was done in Island and I do believe that um nowhere has that been exhibited in protecting or burying temporal wealth to this extent to this degree nowhere now they did divert a river to bury aar's treasure and then they diverted the river back that's the the the story as the story goes but this is far more complex than that so I believe that the treasure is less to to do with temporal wealth and it has to do with something else uh you have to be people ask all the time how could that have been done so long ago and I my response to that is really quite simple human beings properly motivated can have and continue to do remarkable things so answer the why of it that's more important to me almost than than Finding the Treasure uh you figure out why and you have to answer the W's who what when where why and how but human beings properly motivated can do remarkable things and I think a remarkable thing was done on that island to what end I cannot say is there something Underground on Oak Island that was worth their time their effort their energy their intellect I believe there was I believe it's might still be there miti as I said I'm a lot more mercenary than him look there's gold and silver in the water at abnormal uh levels that's science that's not having to rely on belief for this or that or the other until we find the source of those metals and my definition of treasure is much more simple thanck it it's conventional you know I mean I this started out looking for gold silver jewels and it's never gone it's deviated bit but that's still what I'm looking for and I I still think there's science that supports that yes I believe there's something associated with what's there but it's not just it wasn't done just for that well I can tell you there are millions of people all over the world who will be holding their breath to see what you've found in series 11 and I'm sure many people will be wishing you good wishes to ensure that you'll hit the mighty dozen and hopefully at some stage you'll be telling us you found a treasure chest full of Spanish Deon gold and jewels and I for one will be cheering you on this week we've got something very special for you Brandon Fugal the owner of the extraordinary skin walker Ranch and if you don't know anything about this Ranch 3 hours southeast of Salt Lake City Utah USA there's a 500 acre region of which is probably the most scientifically investigated place on Earth it's also an alleged paranormal hotspot seen for all manner of weird high strangeness paranormal anomalous and UAP UFO activities Skinwalker Ranch sits in a region known as the UA Basin a territory rich with Native American history and myth the skin walker Ranch name is derived from a shape-shifting character from neevo tribal folklore and among the neevo Skin Walkers are like werewolves evil witches that can transform themselves into any shape they like now Skinwalker Ranch is actually 400 mil North I understand of the neevo nation in the territory of the Ute people but the par normal suspicions behind the skin walker myth are very well respected in that country now my friend George NEP journalist from uh Las Vegas wrote a brilliant book about this mysterious Ranch called hunt for the skinwalker and he tells in his book How soon after European settlers arrived they started seeing mysterious things in the sky and it's gone on right through to the present day there was a family called the Germans in the early 1990s who reported to local media how they were experiencing all manner of paranormal phenomena including a ship some type of craft hovering over their property the size of a football field they also reported shooting to no effect a gigantic wolf that was three times the size of a normal wolf and it just loped away apparently showing no effect from the shots there were also also distressing cattle mutilations cows found dead with surgically precise excisions internal organs removed but no blood and no sign anywhere of human Mischief in 1997 an aerospace entrepreneur Robert Bigalow bought the ranch and he resourced a massive scientific investigation through a body he created called the National Institute for Discovery Science and in around about 2007 this is actually the origin of the investigations by the Pentagon into what became atip or orap the uh Cod named programs that were essentially investigating not just the Paranormal phenomena at Skinwalker Ranch but a whole range of paranormal and anomalous phenomena and that prompted what became the New York Times story in 2017 so much of the mystery began at Skinwalker now as it happens we have Brandon fugle here today and not only is he an extraordinarily successful prominent businessman in the Utah region he's the chairman of the cers investment and real estate firm he's also somebody who's got an admitted interest in the Paranormal the anomalous and the weird world of high strangeness Brandon Fugal welcome to reality check can you tell me sir what have you adduced in this magnificent TV program which I think is now coming up to its fifth season after five series of Skinwalker Ranch what have you found I think the uh the show is called The Secret of Skinwalker Ranch what can you tell me about the scientific research that you've done at Skinwalker uh are you a Believer ah I am not a Believer Ross I'm an experiencer I can't deny I cannot deny that which I have seen with my own eyes with Witnesses at my side and that which we have hard data evidencing the reality of the phenomena there at Skinwalker Ranch this this uh most scientifically studied paranormal hotspot on the planet and it is quite a privilege to be unveiling this coming week on Tuesday on the History Channel you know 10 uh 9 Central uh the latest series of discoveries observations and events that have taken place over the course of this last year that continue to underscore not only the reality of the phenomena and the fact that we are not alone in the universe but that uh there there are things happening in our airspace uh in our world that defy our current understanding of physics and uh reality itself so we're we are tackling topics that I believe have been uh addressed for thousands of years since the beginning of time people have asked you know where did we come from why are we here where are we going know are we alone in the universe uh what is the nature of reality and I believe our scientific investigation at Skinwalker Ranch may may actually hold the answers to some of those time honored questions that have uh that have been on people's minds since the beginning when I was doing my research for this show I spoke to one of your esteemed colleagues I won't say who who it was but he actually said to me when I asked him what what should I ask you about he said ask Brandon if it's real ask Brandon if it's real because all we cop all the time is the accusation that we fake this stuff that that this is all nonsense that this is fakery that we're planting stuff that this is all made up is it good question uh absolutely one of the key uh points of not only consideration but key contractual items I have had in place with the History Channel and a network is that nothing can be faked manipulated or contrived relative to the documentary series uh that is unfolding uh we we are a datadriven investigation uh my principal investigator and chief scientist Eric Bard often says we are not led by an inherited narrative but we are led by the data and by using the scientific method and a team of multi-disciplinary experts and professionals we are truly documenting the reality of the phenomena in the most dynamic way for the first time and presenting it in a very transparent way to the public so Brandon let's talk about your experience as you say you're not a Believer you're an experiencer you've seen hard empirical data with your own eyes what did you see ah absolutely I I purchased the property from The elusive billionaire Robert Bigalow Bigalow Aerospace back in back in April of 2016 and I I purchased the property as an open-minded skeptic but one who had never seen a UFO ghost orb or anything of the sort and I truly believed that there was a natural prosaic explanation for what had been reported on this property for decades if not Millennia the first six months of my ownership were marked by really no unusual activity that I could observe I was flying in my helicopter periodically to be briefed by my team as they were documenting the uh the property and studying the property and every time that I visited all that I saw was a very peaceful strikingly beautiful landscape you know you have a a red rock Mesa Plateau that runs the entire expanse of the property with cave systems you have old Pioneer homesteads that are uh a haunting part of the landscape there you have waterways that snake through the property it is uh it is a very very interesting backdrop for this investigation but I I I didn't see anything or even feel anything even slightly unusual uh or out of the ordinary well that all changed for me on on October 14th 2016 when I was hosting some dignitaries visitors who came to the property and everything went crazy we witnessed everything from rapid battery depletion with our smartphones to electromagnetic anomalies equipment malfunction even acute medical episodes one individual who was attending security a 6'6 Hulk of a man was rendered catatonic in the middle of the visit and uh experienced what can only be described as missing time but later that afternoon on October 14th as we were traveling back to the security trailer to to retrieve our phones after having them charged for several hours an individual in the back seat right behind me in my open air Polaris Ranger UTV that we were that we were driving across the property started yelling to stop the vehicle was waving his hands in the air and as I brought the vehicle to an abrupt stop and looked to where he was pointing all of us saw above the Mesa right in front of us what can only be described as a flying saucer it was a 40 to 50t long silver grayish disc like object that appeared hovering about 100 feet above the Mesa Plateau which for Generations been has been referred to as Skinwalker Ridge that's where the the property derives its name this object which was which was uh appearing very solid it had a kind of a reflective quality off of one side where the sun appeared to be glinting off of it uh within seconds changed position in the blink of an eye moved 50 ft to the left within seconds after that it dropped to a low hover above the Mesa and much to our astonishment seconds later darted to the right and was ultimately gone uh and the whole episode lasted about 20 seconds but left us not only astonished but changed us it transformed us from being Skeptics to experiencers and from that moment forward I devoted the resources the personnel and the focus to begin documenting and studying the nature of the phenomena happening at Skinwalker Ranch uh I I had no intention of ever revealing my identity as the owner even after that event I didn't want any of these topics to distract or undermine my professional activities as chairman of uh Utah's colar International uh operation we're the largest commercial real estate firm in the Inner Mountain West we represent a lot of uh Fortune 500 companies significant institutions and I did not want my career spanning decades to potentially be undermined by the controversial nature of not only this Ranch but the subject matter the topics but as the years pass and we gathered data uh drawing from dozens of surveillance cameras and scientific instrumentation monitoring the property the History Channel and A&E Network and producers reached out to me and after a year of persistence I agreed to take a meeting with them told them that I wasn't really interested in letting cameras behind the fence but ultimately was persuaded to allow a firstever documentary series effort to come inside the fence inside the military graded grade gated fence entrance to study and document for many months of the year for three to four months out of the year uh the strange activity the experiments and the research being conducted on really what is the most scientifically studied paranormal hotspot on the planet look I I take my head off to you to be honest Brandon because um I like you started out a very determined skeptic thinking that when I wrote my book I was going to prove that all of this was bunam and as I've got sucked further and further down the rabbit hole I've been waiting for that moment for whenever and if any of this paranormal UAP phenomena shows itself to me and frankly it hasn't done it yet and my friends say that it's doing it to keep me skeptical because it needs me as a journalist to keep on being skeptical so I'm going to be I for a moment I'm going to ask you did you get did you get Vision did you get imagery of what you saw that day and if so why not because it it strikes me so much so much about Skinwalker often you hear these incredible stories I think Eric Davis the physicist who's a mutual friend of ours he's described how he was up one night late at night 2:30 in the morning and he described seeing a portal open in the air right and this gigantic creature a humanoid creature steps out of this portal and comes out into the ranch and Lopes off it sounds like something out of a horror movie but this I mean I respect and admire Dr Davis he's not somebody who makes things up and neither are you the problem I have yeah I have so much to lose there is so much liability and even going public with uh with these these topics and to answer your question you know our uh our smartphones were unfortunately drained before you know prior to the UFO sighting and we'd put them back at the security trailer to be charged we were going back to retrieve them When the UFO and the the gray silverish object appeared above the Mesa plateau and proceeded to maneuver for a period of about 20 seconds um but I will note that in our on our series we have captured unidentified aerial phenomena and objects of Unknown Origin on many occasions in fact this past year in season 4 we capture what can only be described as a transm medium unidentified aerial object or phenomena that not only dropped down we captured it descending from the sky via a camera on my helicopter that was conducting an exercise but it it not only entered the Mesa from the top but it exit exed right below the helicopter and uh the the whole sequence of events and the the um Spectrum analyzer that was registering strange readings and a host of other things added validity to that event we've also captured on the the surveillance cameras even the trail cameras that are motion sensor uh activated on the property uh strange objects of Unknown Origin uh you with that the fact that acute medical episodes electromagnetic anomalies and other equipment malfunctions tend to correlate or accompany these sightings that have been documented uh and it it leaves a trail of hard data of data coming from a [Music] series oops I'm back with you sorry about that are we back no I think I think the electromagnetic anomalies were having a bit of a joke with us they they maybe the tricksters followed you all the way back to Salt Lake City Brandon yeah I apologize well people speak of what we call The Hitchhiker effect where strange phenomena seems to not only attend these topics but actually follow people home after they have engaged on the property and uh and it's uh it's real when you have data when you have countless Witnesses and you have video and other evidence supporting these claims and these observations it uh it it really does underscore the fact that these topics need to be taken more seriously and the public has a right to know the reality of what is happening not only in our airspace but in our world and our reality I couldn't agree with you more I mean you and I are on the same track on on this and the thing I find bewildering about the debunkers the splenic renting debunkers Who attack you guys is that as far as I can see you are doing what they often accuse all of us of not doing which is gathering empirical data trying to scientifically assess and measure and analyze and investigate does it frustrate you that that you're not taken seriously it does it's frustrating especially when you take into account that we bring in objective you know third-party Eep experts we bring in at every turn third-party subject matter experts professionals scientists engineers that um that participate in the experiments I mean we're talking about the world's leading experts in everything from ground penetrating radar to U liar studies to those who are really the most qualified when it comes to testing the environment and and the conditions we've also brought in a number of different scientific platforms I mean even the world's largest drone operator Sky elements and others have come onto the property in service to being part of the experiments and research to help us understand not only what is happening above the property but potentially below well that brings me to the next question which is it's quite clear Brian your your and I think your old Mormon friend Brian Arnold he's talked about how digging into the property is one of the most dangerous things perceptively that you can do uh there was that terrible time when one of your staff suffered a a horrible I think it was Thomas Winterton that your your uh security manager he suffered a terrible swelling in his head that saw him hospitalized after they began digging into the ground and I think on another occasion when Travis Taylor was opening a port hole into the ground something similar happened he was overcome by some kind of fumes or compounds well actually he was he ended up sustaining radiation Burns he was suddenly exposed to radi yeah there was radiation and it ended up going to the hospital and as you'd mentioned Thomas Winton ended up in the hospital for a week with life-threatening illness that remains to this day unexplained the only explanation that could be provided relative to his injuries that were sustained in connection with his work on the property uh you know some digging activity where he was disturbing the Earth is that the back of his skull was irradiated um and we've had countless other incidents even cardiac uh incidents on the property that have unfortunately correlated or coincided with digging activity or other experimental research activity being conducted so the ranch is not to be taken lightly we we counsel all those who come and visit the property in any capacity whether it be the scientists the engineers the professionals that are participating that they prepare themselves spiritually uh regardless of whatever religious tradition or not we ask them to enter the property with the spirit of reverence and humility for we are dealing with phenomena that is unex explained that has command over the environment and and obviously based on some of the data and evidence that we have collected it has the ability to to discern your intention or the attitude that one brings those who bring an adversarial or a negative attitude to the property often are rendered immobilized are the most injured in the course of uh of not only participating on the property but even just entering the property so it's important to note that this is a very sensitive scientific investigation that runs year round 247 365 days a year but there is also a liability issue here due to the danger uh those who enter enter having to sign liability waivers and and recognizing that there are certain risks I will never allow my own children to set foot on this property simply because I know we are dealing with forces some which appear to be malevolent with negative intent that uh that are somehow interacting with our environment and our world so this is mind-blowing Brendan what you are describing to me is a non-human intelligence aren't you well we don't know the origin or the agenda associated with the with the activity at Skinwalker Ranch We Believe based on the data that there is a diversity of Origins and agendas that there there is most likely not one single point of origin or type of entity or intelligence that we're interacting with I mean people ask me all the time is it aliens is it beings from other worlds or is it multi-dimensional or interdimensional phenomena or is it spiritual is it spiritual in n in nature Angels and Demons uh of religious and his hisorical tradition and the best answer I can provide Ross is that it is most likely D all the above that uh that what we're seeing is is really A A diversity of agendas and Origins that for some reason Converge on this property and and have made Skinwalker Ranch a center of gravity for studying the phenomenon perhaps there's a portal a uh a Stargate or a wormhole to other worlds or other uh other diens on this property based on the data it appears there's something definitely in the environment that uh that is beyond description now before the audience watching this take Le think that we've both taken leave of our senses and that we' been reading far too many good science fiction novels I I I I want to explain the significance of a defense intelligence agency organization investigation which basically began a very thorough investigation into skin walker Ranch and Associated paranormal phenomena I think back in 2007 Senator Harry Reid with the support of a couple of other colleagues in the Senate he helped secure some funding through um the defense intelligence agency and then through the Pentagon for what became known as I think the orep program the splenic renting debunkers tie themselves up in knots trying to prove that this was all nonsense but the simple fact is there was a defense intelligence agency program funded millions of dollars to investigate this phenomena and the story I love most of all is James latky Jim latsky I think you've met him since but he he was a super sort of senior physicist inside the Department of Defense he's brought out to the ranch and in George np's book he describes how this skeptic was demonstrated within seconds of his arrival something equivalent to the kind of Tubular Bells three-dimensional image that appears on Mike oldfield's album The Tubular Bells album it it manifested itself in front of him in the uh security room at Skinwalker do you know this story and do you believe it yeah the event actually occurred in the ranch house uh not of the security room it was actually in the ranch house or what we call Homestead one I am familiar with the account in fact we've had others that have observed uh strange phenomena in that same place or region of that uh that old historic structure that is well over 100 years old on the property uh the fact that this property was part of a pentagon funded black budget program with tens of millions of dollars focused on the potential National Security implications and the the reality of the high frequency of UFO or UAP sightings coupled with bizarre cattle mutilation activity and other high strangeness uh I think really does differentiate not only this effort and this this location from others for whatever reason but I think it uh it really helps underscore the seriousness and reality of these things a few weeks ago on reality chick we interviewed um a theologist Paul thigpin and um the wonderful Congressman Tim berett and Tim volunteered to us we were talking about religion and we were talking about the possibility that what the phenomenon is May in fact be you know is it wrong to talk about angels and demons and I I know you are uh you follow the Latter-Day St Church the Mormon church and um I was F you've had me reading Mormon scripture Brandon I've I've become a convert I've I've started reading Mormon scripture and in the um Latter-Day Saint scripture the prophet Moses has a vision of the cosmos and God tells him quote worlds without number have I created and I also created them for mine own purpose and by the son I created them which is mine only begotten but only an account of this earth and the inhabitants thereof give I unto you for behold there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power and there are many that now stand and innumerable are they unto man so the Mormon religion the Church of Latter-day Saints clearly contemplates an acceptance of other non-human intelligences true yeah sure the the Church of Jesus Christ Al lity Saints which I uh belong to and I I had the privilege of serving as a missionary for my faith back uh in 1992 to 94 between the ages of 19 to 21 uh is unique in that it it teaches that uh and acknowledges that there are worlds without number that we are not alone in the universe and I believe that it also advances that we are part of a divinely constructed intelligently designed reality and you know with with Jesus Christ and the Gospel of Jesus Christ being the the focus and the centerpiece of our faith uh coupled with a a cosmic world view I believe that it offers a a clear road map for understanding the the purpose of life and the nature of our existence and people have asked me based on your faith what is the purpose of life well in in our Scripture it states you know or God States this is my work and my glory to to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man and what we are seeing here at Skinwalker Ranch also delves into topics involving Consciousness the nature of Consciousness and and whether there is something much more complex as far as our existence and uh and and how that may play out in the environment at Skinwalker Ranch I don't think it's any coin is it that after the National Institute of Discovery Science Robert Bigalow the predecessor owner of Skinwalker Ranch he's now funding incredible Research into Consciousness isn't he yeah millions of dollars in fact he is uh established essentially an endowment to uh to award millions of dollars to those who are conducting groundbreaking Research into the Afterlife and and really into the nature of Consciousness itself uh that's probably a key indicator as far as where some of these topics go when trying to to understand our place in the universe and and really this planet uh the fact that we appear to be monitored by beings by intelligence of Unknown Origin that has command over space time uh has command over technology and equipment I mean we've seen at Skinwalker Ranch closed very very complex uh scientific devices and Computing systems manipulated instantaneously uh closed systems that uh that have been uh malfunctioning and and also completely uh reprogrammed uh resulting in some very very disturbing uh events on the property and you know everything from astronomers we had the Salt Lake astronomical Society professionals out as well as as I mentioned earlier the largest drone operator in the world which is Sky elements that has deployed more drones instrumented drones in service to understanding what is happening above the property uh and you're going to see as the season unfolds and we reveal the most recent events at Skinwalker Ranch in season five of The Secret of Skinwalker Ranch starting this next week uh some of the most uh I think terrifying incidents that have ever been reported if not documented and some new insights and discoveries well can I ask you this then Brandon I've spoken to people who've worked at the ranch who've described how people who've been in combat people who've seen death people who've seen the darker side of humanity they are often the people that the phenomenon latches onto you talked about The Hitchhiker effect and there's one guy in particular I won't name him to respect his privacy but he describes how he was followed home by some kind of paranormal hitchhiker and his wife and family witnessed what can only be described as a a kind of a werewolf creature in the front garden uh looking up at the house it does big the question to me is this phenomenon something that we should be investigating I can I can hear in my head religious people Tim berett might be one of them saying these are demons these are evil has it ever crossed your mind that you might be dealing with something that's malevolent evil that doesn't want to be investigated uh you know assigning intent in assigning cause to these events as they unfold uh is is difficult um I believe that science will ultimately give us the answers using the scientific method and following that method and being led by the data and not just stories or an inherited narrative will be an important part of getting to the truth and really focusing on the truth and on on on really Gathering the reality uh of you know all of the Collective data that has been assembled on this property I mean a lot of people who preceded me have uh documented and recorded activity out in the uint Basin and even this property we brought in retired uh law enforcement you know the former deputy sheriff who responded to events of bizarre cattle mutilations and even UFO activity on this particular property going back in the 1980s this is preceding the Shermans who sold it to Robert Bigalow I mean this is this is back when this property wasn't on anyone's radar wasn't the topic of any news story uh but was experiencing and Reporting strange activity that continues to this day and we consider it a privilege uh to be involved with this I consider my ownership a stewardship I don't really look at myself as the owner but rather the steward of this property I believe I've been given a responsibility to conduct myself and to direct my team to to address these topics uh with with reverence with the right type of professionalism and approach and and I believe that uh that the public has a right to know and that uh we as human beings on this planet are ready to explore the next Frontier and the next Frontier I believe is is really identifying and understanding the nature of reality of itself and whether we truly are alone in the universe what is our role in the cosmos now Brandon you you're very kind with your time and I'm really Keen to keep you on just for a couple more questions if possible so please tell me if you do have to bolt no but fire away one thing I'm really interested in drawing you on is eminent domain um one of the arguments that came up during the debate about the Schumer legislation in Congress last year one of the reasons why there was opposition to the Schumer legislation that would have allowed for greater protection for people coming forward whistleblowers coming forward with evidence of an alleged Legacy retrieval reverse engineering program one of the objections that came up was that the legislation imposed imminent domain and I I know one of your colleagues Travis Taylor has been quite outspoken in um expressing his opposition to the imminent domain and he kind of got slept down about it but the lawyer in me kind of agrees with him to be perfectly honest I I found it worrying that the state that the state felt that it had the right to confiscate any technology that might have been recovered and I I guess this would include Skinwalker Ranch as well because presum any evidence yeah any that that would include any evidence or data and I don't think people understand the the consequences of giving that much power and overreach to to government authorities um to just immediately sweep in uh I believe that our best our best uh chance of seeing real disclosure and advancement relative to these Frontier topics is going to come from the private sector because for decades I mean for likely the last 70 80 years there has been an active disinformation campaign to discredit those who've been involved with these topics and I believe that the truth associated with these topics especially or or specifically within government channels within the public sector I I don't believe any of that will come forward regardless of Congressional hearings foyer requests or anything of the sort uh I I believe that the private sector has the best chance of bringing this forward and I'd hate to see some overreaching overaggressive eminent domain Clause that would render a privately funded investigation like mine uh not only completely terminated but any evidence associated with that investigation to be sequestered off into some program that will never see the light of day we've already we've already heard numerous accounts where that has occurred in the past Brandon can I ask you about your opinions of the arrow historical review report that came down a few weeks ago which essentially debunked all of this basically saying there's no evidence and it leads the reader to the suggestion that all of the people and we're talking here about prominent scientists like Dr Eric Davis Dr Travis Taylor uh people like Jay Stratton um J Jim latsky all of Hal put off all of the people who at different times have either had dealings with Skinwalker Ranch or taken an interest in the phenomenon associated with it what do you say to the notion that is being pushed I think quite mischievously by the Pentagon by the arrow office through the orices of the doctor Shan Kirkpatrick pushing this line that this is just a Whimsy that these are people should not be taken seriously that they've misls Letters by the nose into spending millions of dollars of taxpayers money in what is some kind of Counter Intelligence disinformation operation ah it's nonsense they they debunked one thing I mean the report debunked nothing it it completely avoided and dismissed uh countless events and pieces of evidence that have been amassed over decades uh it completely ignores uh using the the scientific method and looking at those events that have occurred and repeatedly those reports that have been brought forward I mean how how they can uh and any report can can simply dismiss the testimony of decorated fighter pilots law enforcement and others uh is it's amusing to me but it's no surprise it shouldn't come as any surprise as I was mentioning earlier if anyone believes that disclosure is going to come through those channels they are they are ignorant uh because the military industrial complex and forces that have been behind suppressing the evidence relative to the reality of the phenomena have been busy at work for a long time and they have everything to lose there is Ross there is nothing to be gained by any of those entities uh by having these things disclosed to the general public I don't believe that uh uh the secret Keepers and those who profit uh from controlling material related to these topics have any motivation whatsoever and I think that uh uh again the the best the best uh hope is the private sector which has always been the case I mean it's not that you see uh most Cutting Edge Innovation or uh or big thinking coming from the government uh when did we ever think that uh that our greatest discoveries would come through the federal government or the answers I think uh even though it plays an important role uh we have to look other places unfortunately I know in the in in the series you sometimes make reference to the idea that you are being observed that it appears that there are sometimes defense military helicopters taking a close interest in the site have you had anyone from government military defense Aerospace intimidate you threaten you try and shut you down you know it it isn't just an idea or speculation it's an absolute fact that we've we've experienced covert military activity in conjunction with our experiments and research over the property when you have a Blackhawk helicopter an unmarked Blackhawk helicopter that is not transponding that descends and hovers right over the property at low altitude while we have a a a a guidance in effect because of rocketry and other things that we have clearance in the area to to conduct that will would that would divert any air air traffic to other to other locations but we see you know we see for for example Blackhawk helicopters uh Army shinook special ops helicopters other military aircraft that are monitoring us I would say that uh it it's confirmation that there's something going on here that uh there are many people that are interested in entities that are interested what is happening at Skinwalker Ranch uh which which gives us some cause for pause I mean there are members of my team that uh that are very concerned about the the monitoring activity that we have observed and we have documented um but we remain Vigilant and we're not going to be intimidated we're certainly not going to stop or or dial down our investigation we are more dedicated than ever especially based on the events that have occurred the last year that we are now going public with for the first time I think the public is going to be shocked by what we are about to unveil not only because of the data and the evidence but also some of the events that were truly disturbing that involved danger that uh that uh without giving away anything were uh were quite hero so I uh I'm very excited to unveil uh transparently what we've been documenting what we've been experiencing as Skinwalker Ranch we explore regions of that property that have never been touched or explored and uh we've had some surprising insights as a result so we're looking forward to the days ahead and I uh look forward to a follow-up conversation to answer any questions as these uh these events unfold well I think of us are cheering you on and hoping that you can provide some really good scientific data that helps prove and validate this phenomenon the one thing I am skeptical about though I mean I agree with you that it has to come from the private sector I think government is hopeless I think there's very little Prospect of any positive affirmation from government about what this really is but you're quite clear just before we go I want to pin you down on one thing you're quite clear that you believe there's been an ongoing cover up and disinformation that's not some wacky conspiracy theory you're seeing it you've experienced it you think it's real why why not why why can't Joe Biden come out and just say look ladies and gentlemen we know what's happening at Skinwalker Ranch is real we know there is a non-human intelligence why not just come out and admit it I I believe that even our own elected officials are are rendered helpless because they don't have a quote need to know unquote even our presidents uh in this day and age don't have a need to know and and do not have access to to the material and the data relative to these topics uh anyone who does their due diligence and and thoughtfully reviews all of the historical data that has been pulled together and there are a lot of people a lot of historians a lot of researchers that have done the heavy lifting that have the receipts that uh that have been able to document the reality of of not only government involvement and cover up but the fact that it continues to this day that there is an active effort to discredit those whether they be you know Pilots uh military personnel law enforcement I mean there there is an active effort to I believe suppress a lot of this um information I mean I I have I've met with countless Pilots that have had experiences firsthand experiences relative to UFO activity in our airspace that are terrified to go public because they don't want to lose their jobs they don't want to come under any scrutiny there is such a Negative stigma associated with these topics and it's it's all been programmed it's all part of a very methodical well-crafted and well-funded disinformation campaign that has involved the media and uh and really even members of the private sector for a very very long time well I for one sir applaud your courage especially from your position in business as a prominent businessmen with colia International dealing with corporate clients clearly it's not damaging your business in fact I suspect it's elevating your profile and hopefully in the long run it's going to lead to some kind of vindication Brandon fugle thank you so much for speaking to reality check and we're looking forward to this new series of the show and hoping that we get some fascinating Adventures along the way look forward to unveiling our discoveries and appreciate your support uh look forward to uh the days ahead take care good to talk to you sir thank you well I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Brandon Fugal as much as I did it's intriguing that a businessman like him has with the risks that he's taking with his reputation is putting his reputation on the line to do what he's doing which is after all good datadriven empirical scientific investigation good on him for doing it I can only applaud now we of course have many many viewer questions and I can never answer all of them but um there are uh a lot of questions today that I'd like to respond to um uh here's one why the footage is always so short the man describes the objects hover hovering above the Bas this is Jonathan Butner this is all in reference to Jonathan Butner the witness we interviewed for reality check last week talking about what he saw all over Langley Air Force Base anomalous orb orange orb objects hovering over one of our most sensitive Air Force bases on the eastern coast of the us and this gentleman asks why the footage is always so short the man describes the objects hovering above the base yet the constantly repeating video is showing the object moving to the left dot dot dot I I get the point of the the viewer um the simple fact is as Brandon Fugal is just told us often in the emotional circumstances of seeing one of these objects a lot of people I've noticed this a lot of experiences say it takes a while for them to even think about picking up a camera now Jonathan Butner uh when he took the images that he did take he took a lot more than he was giving us and I've I've got a large amount of extra vision and maybe we should have run some of it a bit longer there was longer Vision that was provided to us the problem is let's be honest about it mobile phone cameras are crap they're not very good at recording imagery so next time anyone's looking at Langley Air Force BL please take a Flur infrared camera they're only 1502 200 Grand and make sure that you get high quality high resolution images for our viewers I completely agree with you I'm only being sarcastic it it's very very important that we do start trying to monitor these bases in a much more methodical way because since that story aired I've had dozens of emails from people telling me about other Air Force bases including Nellis Air Force Base another very important US Air Force Base where these exact same objects are being seen by Witnesses and they're in touch with me at the moment uh next question even though this isn't an admission of a retrieval reading between the lines an event must have occurred to justify the work of putting a program together and allocating a budget and I think that's in reference to the recent cona blue Revelations uh kona blue are documents it's not a Hyundai in Australia a Kona is a Hyundai car so it's quite funny when people start talking about kona blue we immediately start thinking about hundis but no kona blue was a top secret code name for a proposed special Access program which was going to be a secret program in involved in researching and monitoring anomalous phenomena including uaps UFOs and look the simple fact is that this question is suggesting that there is an admission of a retrieval no it's not I think it has to be clearly stated that cona blue never happened it got kiboshed somebody probably the Department of Defense intervened the Department of Homeland Security was taking extr extremely seriously the possibility that that there were anomalous phenomena they were approached by people I suspect Jim latky from the DIA I'm not sure for certain but they were approached by people and and they took it very very seriously there was a briefing given in a skiff and um frankly they were convinced enough to consider allocating the money but for some reason the program got AED and as Brandon fugles just told us we really shouldn't be holding our breath waiting for government to do much more funding of this kind of research there are very clever scientists out there and let's be honest about it most of them are in the private sector that's where the money is let's use those scientists let's not be shy about it Ross what happened with those whistleblowers you personally know in these programs that you talked about 11 months ago the ones that you've said have been Hands-On with alien crafts when will you bring one of these people on the show watch this space I'm afraid guys you're just going to have to be patient as I keep on saying yes there are whistleblowers and yes there are people going through the defense office pre-publication Security review process and yes hopefully at some stage these people will have the courage to feel okay about coming forward but when you see the disgraceful way that the defense department has tried to shaft any effort to take this seriously can you blame whistleblowers for being nervous about coming forward when you see the way that David grush has been the subject of quite disgraceful attacks on his credibility on his reputation on his mental ill mental state of it's just appalling I I don't blame whistleblowers for being scared about coming forward and in fact sometimes I've actually discouraged people from from doing it because you know they're going to get shafted you know that they're going to lose their job I've encouraged people to speak to Senate investigators to house investigators to give their evidence in confidence to the Congress frankly that doesn't seem to be going anywhere at the moment but what I can tell you without giving away too much is Congress is taking this very seriously a lot more seriously than is being publicly disclosed there is a willingness to engage they want to see the evidence and if you are a whistleblower feel free about approaching me I'm very happy to pass you on to the right people and hopefully at some stage just to appease our angry viewer at some stage hopefully these whistleblowers will feel okay about coming forward but I do want to caution this isn't entertainment this isn't some reality show making up For Your Entertainment these are courageous public servants who are making a very hard decision about whether they come forward to reveal a secret about what I believe is the biggest story in human history and frankly I don't give a Flying Fig if people think it's all nonsense if they try and dismiss it and say it's all Bs go and have a rant about it sit in a corner and rant and steam and fume we're going to keep on digging and we're going to get the answers thank you so much for joining me again on reality check I hope you enjoyed Brandon fugle see you next week