Superconductor Gravity Impulse development call

Transcript

foreign yes I did a couple of hours ago ah yeah I got it I don't I don't think I read your your email yet what was it about uh our replication it's yeah it's his notes yeah oh so that's something we'll definitely have to look at yep let's see if I can find it can y'all hear me yeah I hear you my I don't think my camera is showing me I don't see myself so you got a video game on there or something well I've got more like the backyard I've got some other I got another video running running in the background because I've got a package coming out signed for us at the watch for the guy it could be interfering with see it but it looks like it's working it's just not ignoring me let me turn this other one off here and see what happens um George where was the email sent to um well Jack and did everyone else get it I mean it was set to Falcon space program at gmail okay thank you Todd oh I'm looking there right now I don't see I don't see the email check your spam oh there it is yeah it's in spam or not spam okay well I don't know why it's not showing me it's pointing right at me coming in I have to sign for it so if they show up I'll have to go down and do that but right now we at least talk yeah I don't have a whole lot of time okay trying to find uh your okay email from you oh I see what it's doing let's do hey George how big in like scale are those Van de Graaff generator balls uh the balls are uh as far as I recall uh 50 centimeters so about like that uh which if you calculate is rated about 600 KV but uh if you actually test it uh which is difficult to do it'll be down around 300 maybe 400 depending on the humidity um and uh and some other factors too so you can never uh you can never tell exactly what the voltage of a Van de Graaff machine is when running at Peak capacity unless you test it the only way to test it is with a very high voltage voltage divider uh very low impedance obviously uh fortunately we have one um there we go anyway that's about the size of it okay uh Todd can you forward me that email from George uh the one with his uh meeting notes his notes from the experiments it went it went to spam and then it disappeared so I could do it myself but it looks like Todd's got it up I got it okay so basically we're trying to go over um what George did in his last experiment uh uh trying to replicate this thing Tony you've spoken to pod Clinic as well and oh there's is that a superconductor it's a two layer it started out being two inches but it shrunk it's also bowed so it'll it would have to be machined uh flat if or either adapt to it still has a seat on it I think you need to pop it off but it's uh I don't know how well you can see it but you can see the crystals through the whole thing okay well we have a a little adapter over here that we machine down um this is this is going to be the feed point for the um liquid nitrogen and at the end there's a block of silver and we can put the superconductor right on there it's going to go through these I've got these machinable plates they're covered in cardboard right now for when we machine them but they're really acrylics it will be see-through this is going to punch right through it then we'll have a superconductor on the end over here for the um the output um and we we hope to try this with first our megavolt marks generator and then there's a company up in New Hampshire that has a 2.4 million 200 kilo amp uh marks generator bank that it's willing to play ball with us to um you know push it to the limits but email you maybe your address and I'll send it to you thank you so much also thanks Tony now you've got these massive helmholtz coils over here that are going to apply a um basically a homogeneous magnetic field across the length of the uh distance that that the impulse is traveling and um on the other end we'll have another plate with the vacuum ports and the grounding plane and all that and then there'll be stand-ups inside the system that will allow us to move the distance change the distance between the grounding plate and the emitter um this entire thing is going to be facing towards the ground slightly this way you can pour the liquid nitrogen and it actually stays in there and then there'll be sensors on the ground that will be sensing any potential impulse we also have a high speed camera capable of 1.4 million frames per second with a trigger that we're going to use to capture that moment and see if there's any impulses uh we may be able to see stuff that are going faster than a light at that distance if we put the camera far enough away oh really um no no I don't think so no forget it anyway not at 1.4 million frames no 1.4 trillion or so yeah even if even if you're like 50 feet is the camera that can do it but forget it there's a camera up in uh in Massachusetts that can do it right and uh yeah yeah there's something in universities that uh look at fempo second businesses they're going through the bottle and all that yeah yeah but anyway can I uh make a couple of comments please sure please uh and and I too have met in fact I invited the first first person to invite him over to North America back in uh the early 90s I guess it was or mid 90s um on two occasions he came to the lab and he okayed our uh bilayer formulations um one of which I guess uh Pony was holding up are the type that Tony was holding up so uh we had uh a pretty clear mandate uh from put gluttonov with regards to the gravity beam experiment I'm not talking about the spinning disc experiment which we published in physical c um a while ago but the beam experiment um and as you'll read in the uh uh that that text that I sent um there there actually were about five different um instantiations you might say of the gravity beam experiment all of which showed an amazing uh remarkable uh Force experiment uh Force effect and it ranged from the very very simple 200 KV um High School size uh uh Van de Graaff machine in a bell jar uh facing a uh with with a superconductor basically pasted on it and that's one thing I want to talk about paste it on the Dome and then uh at the and this was in a bell jar and then the side of the Bell jar was a grounded disc uh with a hole in the center and uh at 200 KV that was the quote that was the calculated voltage of the Van de Graaff would never get there but uh the calculated 200 DV he was able he claimed to knock pencils over and uh do that kind of stuff at at right across the lab uh that and this was when he spoke in Turin uh back I got it in the notes in uh in the 90s I went to visit uh modanesa and uh a bunch of other guys who were working on the kletnov situation and uh and but Clinton off was there uh showing the various um versions of his device oh so quick question yeah how was it attached to the um then to grab generator was it was it bonded like with with bolts or with uh indium or epoxy um as far as I could tell it was a conductive epoxy and that's what I was going to bring up uh to Mark um it's really important to have a not only electrically conductive but a thermally conducted which is usually the case uh bonding method um to bond the superconductor to the to your um uh silver uh silver end there uh so that you have um I I as as uniform as possible a uh a uh super meissner effect uh rather than having it only in center and then it drifts off and it's not no longer superconducting on the rim um or things like that so uh he suggested that uh a very tight uh contact between the superconductor and the Van de Graaff or whatever at the time was Van de Graaff when he talked about it the first time then it became somewhat more sophisticated uh but anyway you needed that that really uh a tight connection he also at the in his first uh first experiments never talked about um uh a bilayer disc uh that happened subsequently uh as people talked and pestered him about questions during the conference he would alter things um and uh to sort of improve them as people started asking questions about you know how high was your vacuum well we started off with the Bell jar and basically you know it was a a four pump vacuum as far as we could tell uh as far as I could tell from listening to what he his description was um don't forget he's a material scientist he's not a physicist so uh he wasn't always up with uh all of the details that you might be you might expect him to be when he claimed to have been in control of the whole experiment um in any event he uh he then said you know it was it was four pump vacuum but then eventually we went on to uh uh you know uh uh uh a um uh so uh uh not a mercury vapor pump but uh somewhat similar it was almost like that 10 getting division sorry would that be a diffusion pump uh it it I assumed it was going to be an oil diffusion pump but he was a bit waffely on that um you never said exactly as far as I could remember what the vacuum was that he needed to get down to was 10 to minus four ten to minus five ten to minus six it was ten to minus six that's the sort of the bottom end of a good diffusion pump then you have to go into uh ion pumps and things like that which he never had is I'm damn sure of that my assumption was that in the Bell jar he got pretty good four pump vacuum 10 to minus four if you're really lucky um I don't I don't know whether he had any cleaners or you know uh backflow preventers that would prevent uh the oil from a diffusion even though either a diffusion pump or which would be a nitrogen trap or a uh a four pump which is a zeolite to prevent junk coming back up as it always does uh from a four pump back into your vacuum evacuated space uh as we talked about that uh things got a little more sophisticated oh yeah well then the next experiment we did was it was in a tube and we had uh uh a uh you know evacuated tube not in a bell jar and we had the the Van de Graaff machine outside the tube as more or less in what I've done but less sophisticated um he uh he claimed that uh they cooled it in an odd way through uh cooled the superconductor through some means that he didn't really describe um and that the the disc was outside the vacuum system didn't have to be inside the vacuum system then he went on to another uh uh another uh version which is closer to what uh most people know and what uh uh I tried to do um which is seen in the in my little report there uh and then after we did some experimentation he came up with several other versions um include increasing the voltage every time so we went from uh arguably 200 KV Van de Graaff machine to a 500 KV Van de Graaff machine to two Van de graaffs to an our Marx generator uh at a million volts or whatever it was a mega Jewel that said in the paper uh Mega Jewel or yes which is yeah it could have been a millijoule but it was a capital MJ yeah it was monstrous um and each time uh as far as I recall his his effect got a little bit more pronounced like at first it was dropping pencils over then it was um moving objects like books sliding along the table how he managed to aim it so the table didn't move as well then it was um uh an actual Force gauge uh that he could position around I presume was a capacitive Force gauge or something like that or a a crystal like a quartz Force gauge um and that was farther and farther out and then he found G after about the fourth iteration I can put the force gauge behind this concrete wall and I still get the effect when I get it in the right spot um and then finally it was uh what we see now which is uh uh you know a serious uh a anti-gravitational effect or a serious inertial effect on massive objects or at least the latest thing he uh uh he he produced which is now decades old um so my point really is that there's no set uh true cutletnov gravity beam apparatus there's no single set gravity beam apparatus according to his own descriptions both at Turin and after and while we were doing our experiments it's a moving Target yeah yeah it it was a moving Target and uh uh you know what once again no corroboration in this case as far as I recall he didn't even use the excuse that the military didn't want him uh telling anybody about this or probing it or how the actual details were as he did with the spinning disc experiment um so I I'm in the dark about the veracity of the experiment uh and the conclusions and the claims uh my only my knowledge is that when we set up an experiment according to his at least his fourth or fifth iteration we did not see an effect up to what would be probably seven or eight KV between Arnold and cathode um using a high vacuum as you can see in the picture at the bottom of the of the uh report uh if you got down that far uh you'll see that we're using a uh uh a turbo pump a fairly substantial one um and uh we knew what kind of vacuum we were getting we had the glassware specially made um and uh we had the uh and enclosed uh nitrogen liquid nitrogen um manifold I guess and we were able to because we were able to make our own superconductors uh at the lab uh we were able to drill a little hole in the center which through which we put a plastic uh Flathead screw quarter 20 up against the the brass end of the liquid nitrogen container and that held it in place uh in addition to um uh the conductive paste that we used we used a couple of pastes um including appiazon uh their uh they're uh let me see it was a conductive conductive grease that was high uh capable of of high vacuum which is most appiazon products so the other thing that you have to be aware of is that if you just use any old um glue uh that uh you think will be conductive and keep the super convector glued to the uh to the liquid nitrogen container uh if you're going to go to pretty high vacuums and the thing gets a little hot too I um you have to do some tests beforehand to make sure that the superconductor doesn't slide off uh the end of the of your silver um thing uh due to uh the uh the glue or the epoxy breaking down I know of some epoxy with silver in it yes conductive but all of these things are they they generally don't say yeah we can withstand high voltage yeah there's going to be high voltage across there we can also withstand a little heat we can also withstand a high vacuum uh and uh without the nitrogen and then a low temperature uh as I say when I say heat that's when we got this epoxy for it this is capable of cryogenic temperatures in a vacuum yeah oh it is not conductive so what we're thinking of doing is powder to it no what we're thinking of doing is just using it as a way of holding it in place and machining out the shape of the superconductor in here pressing it in so it'd be like a direct contact fit but then surrounding that with the epoxy on just on the outside of the superconductor it'll hold it in place makes sense okay uh it's also it's not I don't know whether it's as important to have a 100 conduct conductivity because if there's going to be a Field Effect I mean this depending on how you design it I mean your your design of a basically a cylinder of of uh uh silver is going to have at many KV I presume a an electric field that surrounds it that electric field is going to by nature and uh of course surround the superconductor as well and the superductor is going to be more or less because of the atelectric field that it sits in more or less the same potential as The Silver thing so I wouldn't I don't know but I wouldn't worry too much about the conductivity but I would strive to get as much conductivity as possible kind of Mark maybe maybe we should make a clamp like a a ring that goes around the superconductor and slightly overlaps it and then that screws down to the uh to the silver head to hold it like because when that is charged up to several KV or whatever uh like charges will repel so there's going to be a lot of repelling force between the Silver Head and the superconductor if it's not solidly attached and uh it could pop it right off the glue that's a possibility depends on what the field looks like um closed we made like a cap though that could just like you know go over it and then screw it down so that it can't pop off I recommend electroplating the I recommend electroplating the silver with indium so that you can press it onto the indium initially that should remove any indium indium uh breaks down at the cryogenic temperatures it um it cracks you tried that before it becomes brittle I don't know you said you said gallium did did you try it the Indian uh I think we tried India I remember it was Indian not gallium I'll have to try that myself sometime I remember we tried something based off of your recommendation I think it was NDM that was the gallium you tried gallium first then I recommended indium yeah it didn't like literally uh right around the cryogenic temperature is when it uh when that broke down um I remember I remember we tried several times and it fell off it didn't stick good Jeremiah why are you there he should be joining us right now there he is so the issue there is um the the application method so you'd have to have both surfaces coated with a thin layer of indium and then back and forth next to itself and then it doesn't attach everywhere it attaches in some locations and that is what allows it what happened was the thermal expansion um Jeremiah do you remember when we connected the two superconductors together using uh it was some metal that was melting I'm not sure if it was indium or gallium but it would it they they would fall apart right when they hit cryogenic temperatures that was gallium right Jeremiah sorry I was uh yesterday my my audio connected I literally uh just got up so I have not at all had any chance to prepare I was just gonna listen in the background for a while but donniana's spot right away um uh yeah I believe we we first tried gallium and we were going to make a uh Indian gallium mixture go ahead oh yeah gallium indium is going to be brittle at those temperatures too that you'd have to have the pure India I know indium is used for cryogenic applications well we do yeah we have a pure Indian it's just that we had never uh mixed the two together purity of the gallium I believe it was 99 point or as sold as 99.99 but it again gallium is really expensive so that's kind of difficult to tell but either way yeah we didn't make that uh Gallen Steiner whatever type of metal that was that's supposed to I guess have a better eutectic connection with the surfaces and ultimately that that wouldn't have been anywhere near as good anyways it's just that it was uh like one we mentioned it's far too brittle and uh to the quality of the type 2 super conducting discs and consequent surface was just not sufficient to make any kind of bind even though it seemed to be digging in real nicely really the stuff was connecting with nothing and it was just a matter of oh it's filling the pores now so at this temperature it kind of sort of seems as if it's holding on but it's not really bonding yeah see the issue with so the with the indium it has to be done the proper way and uh it sounds like it wasn't anyway so the gallium is brittle at those temperatures yeah either way yeah India more regalia and we're really not the right solution I think the right solution is is going to be um likely just plating that surface in the vacuum and uh Vapor depositing some metal of choice whatever that's true because you're in vacuum so it'll just vacuum well if you stick it next to each other all right now he's got a super fancy machine to do it as well which is something that didn't exist in the minds of any of us at the time as far as uh equipment we thought would be available yeah actually even just like with the silver if you sputter if you sputter coat the silver onto the back of the uh of the super connector conducting disk then that should just um under vacuum conditions those two should vacuum well together now that I think about it unlikely uh because you won't get a perfectly smooth surface on the superconductor virtually no matter how you try to uh uh sputter uh silver on it'll always be yeah it would be but um I have seen Silver uh plated on top of superconductors it works pretty well I mean if if the if the silver to Silver contact would be better than the silver to uh superconductor contact it might be a good way to go yeah there will there will be enough contact but I think you have a have to have a mechanical uh press first uh then the two silver make the two silver surfaces as well together as possible by squeezing or or a clamp as as I think Todd was suggesting uh yeah would make sense or a screw through the sender is what we used uh how are you going to grind the uh uh superconductor faces flat when you get them uh well we have we have some superconductors already that are these were made in Ukraine I think a while back they are pretty flat already okay we have a CNC too yeah we could face it with the CNC yeah what we did was a diamond wheel on a on a uh oh that'll do it on a uh a traveling um uh standard uh grinder surface grinder uh yeah really careful sorry like for like for like uh that the bed is about four feet long by about a foot wide uh and the wheels about this big um and it's adjustable up and down you got to be really careful when you're grinding uh especially how you're holding the super conductor down onto a stable or the the non-grinding platform um which is and you don't want it to move or Buckle or because you'll you'll destroy it it has to be very slow very slowly down at least this is when we have four of them here yeah so for the for the um for the bolt you mentioned that goes through the middle uh was that just kind of like sticking out of the surface or was that recessed into the surface yeah I figured yeah it was flat um okay the surface was the the active surface you might say was was essentially flat gotcha did you like fill it did you fill it in with a plug above the yeah we just so there was a superconductor disc and there was a little plastic uh quarter 20 head Flathead um I don't think that would make much difference one would hope so did you did you get the positive result though I I'm not no I haven't read too much about this so no we uh we tried various um various tests um and uh including the pencil uh system right up as close as we could get to um in in this case the as you saw the Van de graafs were on both ends of the tube and but Clinton I've claimed oh no problem in version four or something like that the beam will go right through the one Van de Graaff well we also put the Van de Graaff off the side uh so that there was basically only the glass uh of the of the um enclosure the vacuum enclosure and inside was the uh grounded ring or the the low potential ring we tried both potentials by the way um and uh we also aimed it at uh um a screen room that we have uh with a bunch of toilet paper as it turns out hanging uh just inside the uh the screen room and uh we we got nothing um yeah what was the voltage you used as well you mentioned it once I just uh probably about 600 um plus or minus uh 300 so about 600 KV six or seven hundred KV across um yeah it was rated at 1.2 megavolts if you use the calculation this is a 600 KV this is minus 600 KV but actually uh as I said uh you'd probably we were probably lucky to get uh say 500 KV or 600 KV between them so just because of the breakdown voltages the breakdown voltage and and and stray uh straight currents um but uh leakage currents and things like that um gotcha and and so I said we we had to uh actually use our uh uh megavolt uh uh voltage divider to uh to confirm that so it was it was much lower than you would have calculated you say geez it's not such a wet day it's fairly dry day uh why isn't the voltage up higher well that's the uh I mean our our Van de graaffs were homemade uh and uh you know we didn't put uh Corona rings and things like that uh below the Dome as you'll see they're just on uh a standard Plexiglas or acrylic tubes and the belts inside and you know there's charge leakage down inside of the of the uh and the outside of the acrylic tubes we designed it originally for a megavolt uh between the two we never got there we got maybe 800 in a different um yeah thank you in a different setup Okay cool so um so we could boost the voltage a little further but but he's uh he claimed results at much lower voltages to begin with right yeah and and and not it didn't need two domes um we just needed as I said and I described the original button of description I've got it somewhere um the one he first presented at Turin when he said we got these amazing pencils falling over and um stuff like that it's just a 200 KV uh Van de Graaff a small one inside a larger Bell jar and the superconductor was pasted onto the the uh one the positive uh high voltage terminal of the Van de Graaff and the the other terminal went to this ring um that had a hole in it and he said wow there's this wonderful uh blue discharge well depending on what gas is in there if you let gas in uh he wouldn't have got a discharge at the length that he was talking about I mean in that Bell jar as far as I could estimate the distance between the superconductor and the um the the cathode you might say uh ring was on the order of uh I don't know 30 centimeters something like that now something like this uh get in to the Bell jar I wonder if he was using an old diffusion pump using mercury because then that would have mercury vapor in the volume and that could have a bluish discharge yeah yeah it could have um Tony actually mentioned something about that he thought there might have been helium inside of the chamber for some reason uh Tony you want to talk about that sure let's let's hear people that love actually told us that let me get my camera back up we have to cut now come over somewhere around 2000 2002 time frame and before he even reported the impulse experiment we brought him over to talk about the uh rotating one and he volunteered the information about the impulse experiment and uh he told us that the that uh when they put the voltage on the superconductor a a white cloud formed on top of the superconductor that he thought was helium that had leaked into the chamber because they were cooling it with helium or helium gas and that that cloud moved when they released a discharge it moved across the chamber and hit the grounding plane on the far side and leaving damage Mark that was the same size as a superconductor which to me indicated that the cloud was was a was coherent until it hit that grounding plane which means it could have been a Bose condensate State itself that cloud and he volunteered that information and then he and then when they wrote that paper it's I think it's actually in the paper he talks about that white cloud I would wonder though because helium-3 and helium four like those are both needed for cooling but the helium 4 would be the Bose Einstein condensate forming one right have have no idea I'm repeating what he said we talked to one of the uh Nobel Prize winners who discovered that helium would form a a condensate State and he said the only way that would happen if the pressure on the helium was pretty high and since you do have a very high electrostatic force on it it is very high pressure on the helium is very high so so this is everything well prize guy who said that that as long as the pressure on it was high you could probably still form a Bose compound and say what's helium interesting maybe maybe it wasn't under vacuum then or not under very much the paper says one one militar which is not very low uh low at all you can do that almost prepping pop yeah interesting George what do you think of all this is that uh different from what you heard that that's much later uh Tony's involvement was much later uh then then our involvement uh with enough and by that time uh given the trajectory of the changing uh uh descriptions of his apparatus I could imagine that uh uh there would be some different kind of apparatus that he would describe and and claim that this was the this is the latest version so but I I'm in the dark I I don't know anything about uh the helium issue and the possibility of cooling I mean in that paper I I couldn't quite figure it out um uh George you you were working on this experiment before he wrote his paper yes I mean this was in the in the 90s um in the mid 90s as far as I don't think the paper came out until the late 90s or if we're talking about the same paper um yeah we started working with the Clinton often uh considering his stuff around 1999 I think could have been a year earlier than that but I actually started working with ning Lee about 1995. yeah that's when things were hot as it were and that's when we were starting when we were doing completing our uh uh are rotating superconductor experiment and uh starting to uh figure whether we should expend the effort to try this gravity beam experiment to his latest specification uh which is what you see in the picture uh that uh I guess I would say though that I'm totally convinced that but Clinton off did not understand his own experiment I agree he didn't understand his uh spinning disc experiment either um it was clear that he had no idea of uh the Electrical uh and the Magnetic parts of the uh of the spinning disc experiment and he admitted it he said you know I'm not electrical engineer I let the guys down the hall a temporary uh they're the electrical guys I let them set up the all the magnetic you know the coils idea what the coils were he said the the support coils I have no idea uh how many turns on the rotating coils I had no idea uh he admitted it he said I'm just the superconductor guy asked me about the superconductor which we did and he saw how we made it and he was there while we made our six inch bilayer disc um did he have any tips and tricks for making such a large disc he told us that he borrowed that disc from uh the University of Moscow he never said he made it he said he borrowed it okay he he claimed to me that he he made it in fact when we had company out of Illinois or Ohio I don't remember they brought the cutoff on as a consultant and he spent he had well they wasted a lot of money making different types of this for him in which there's the paper that he did after that used their stuff the stuff they they made for him so that tells me that he didn't even know how his super conductor was made he was having those guys make a whole bunch of different types so that he could write another paper yeah that that uh that makes sense to me uh although he you know he did he he did guide us through the steps um with what because we're not superconductor experts or we weren't at the time uh so we followed his uh directions and you know we we made a bilayer one is non-superconductor one is superconductor he figured he told us how to kill the super conductivity and on the one face uh so we had to set up a special uh jig a special uh a two layer can uh where the the superconductor was in the center and the bottom had oxygen in it then the top had uh can't remember something there was price edemium Etc in the in the non-superconductor layer and that had to be under uh nitrogen that's opposed to oxygen and it killed the superconductivity on the top layer and it let it but it was good on the bottom layer anyway he seemed it for from our standpoint he seemed to know more or less what he was doing um so by that standard I suggested to people that we are under his direction for the for for making the superconductor uh still we didn't see anything uh at least down our apparatus um as you you may have read so uh I'm still uh I I'm I get given what uh you've described Tony doesn't surprise me let's put it that way um that he was going through a bunch of stuff that may have been because no one else was able to replicate what he claimed to have done with his superconductor or moscows so gee maybe I should think about making a different one so I'll have these guys um who he was a consultant too can't remember the name of their company either uh let's make a whole bunch of different ones and see whether any of those work maybe it's possible it had nothing to do with the superconductor and just had everything to do with the helium going from one side of the chamber to the other kind of like a shotgun blast created some sort of impulse wave that pushed pencils down like it's like you do that with sound yeah like it could be the Bose Einstein concentrate of the helium not even the superconductor that'd be interesting to play around with the likelihood of you producing it bosons thing constant date concentrate in the lab at that vacuums and pressures uh and and constituent Parts uh is highly unlikely I'm sorry to break it to you but if you have both Einstein condensate is is done like in this volume oh you know so with with liquid helium here with liquid helium you can produce bulk Bose Einstein condensates when you have super fluid liquid helium that is a boson condensate that's macroscopic yeah but in in how are you going to engineer it into this kind of situation you would have to have helium-based progenic cooling on the disc to get it down to four Kelvin or so and then if you have a helium vapor in the chamber it would coat that surface potentially good luck I say thank you um I agree good luck but they're not impossible like I said it's not impossible no prize guy and he he said it was possible that the pressure was high enough on the on the hemia plus your helium gas being close to the superconductor goes it can go into a Joseph Junction state so it's close enough and that happens even without it being cold enough the helium could go it could become super inductive from proximity to the superconductor that's plausible so theoretically it can happen but can it happen that's the question in fact if you can't see this white cloud of boat of a helium gas on top of a superconductor of something that size then you would other than the liquid helium you would have created more Bose I think than anybody else that would be itself if verifiable is is a Nobel Prize type experiment there's a video of superfluid helium in a little container then it flows up and around the light of the container that's right and if what was that I thought that was like uh roughly real scale like a couple inches across or something yeah sure what is it a Bose Einstein condensate people will explain the fluid it's a super fluid for helium that's different anyway getting back to this Cloud go ahead I I do have one more question before you hold if you could um before you move on I am very interested so he he showed you how to make this disc that was a couple inches across and it didn't it didn't shatter upon making it it uh it held together it was good it was solid yeah I have it in a lab nice we had to we had to grind it cool well so at least he at least he knew that much at least he was not like be asking about how to make superconductors I mean if you read the murakamas papers and uh and uh the original George if you still have those superconductors uh would you mind if we borrowed one because I have the option of trying with this setup we could try any superconductor we have a whole bunch of end plates we could keep on changing them out with the new apparatus for each one I can't I can't guarantee they're going to be still good we keep them in a vacuum or sorry in a dryer uh but uh decades yeah yeah those those things need to be kept very they're they're microscopic George so we were going on to talk about the cloud I still had one more thing before though before we move on um do you mind if as best you can recall uh writing down those instructions for posterity uh they would they're in uh the previous in in the paper um the 19 was it 95 uh physical C paper by Hathaway uh Cleveland and Bao on uh rotating the rotating superconductors the formula is basically in there so I was gonna say I've seen it that's in physicacy uh Hathaway I can't remember the title of it spinning superconductors or something like that gravity thank you so much um anyway you'll find it under Hathaway and gravity and the cut nav and anyway even just uh that particular recipe like you could do as much as you want with the rest of the experiment but like if you don't have that secret sauce no like almost no point maybe that's what button I've claimed unless it was bilayer of a certain type forget it it's not going to work or at least the effect would be really much reduced well that's my that's what my intuition is telling me as well I would I would also suggest that this I mean I I think I could make a cloud of of white stuff above Ace of a suit a cold disc uh quite easily in a bell jar uh by letting in some kind of gas that condenses and looks like a cloud of white stuff it has nothing to do with heat moving or becoming a Super fluid or uh both designed it wasn't he wasn't uh saying it was glowing he was saying it was no I I sorry it was a a cloud uh presumably reflective Cloud it wasn't glowing of its own nature but I mean I've seen it I've seen walls glowing okay because that's how he measured the speed of it he puts no no I I'm sorry I'm saying I'm saying without any high voltage or anything like that oh yeah you can because anytime you have a public system the condo the sites are in that chamber is going to especially if it's atmosphere with a little bit of the water Vapors awake a white cloud until it turns to water that's right and that's I figured because mm-hmm yeah you don't need too heavy no that's true but I don't know which some other gas might do it I think it's Superfluous myself oh no hydrogen would probably be white too um yeah look at that so there's a lot of gases that what ionize why oh what Tony recommended we try is uh we can vacuum the chamber and then let helium into it then vacuum it out again now we got low pressure helium with whatever's left uh so fast uh if you simply do that uh you will have a huge amount of water vapor it's still left on the inside of any container you're trying to evacuate the only way to get rid of the water vapor is either there are three ways evacuating for weeks and weeks uh evacuating and heating the surface evacuating and uh backfilling with argon and putting a high voltage electrode in and sputtering using so-called plasma etching to get rid of all of the liquid all of the water vapor the water vapor do you think that's necessary though do you think pod Clinic did that I don't think potlit knob did that I but if if you're claiming to do an experiment where you say oh all we have is helium in here that's not going to be the case well I I don't I don't think you will ever only have a helium in there and correct George George I think you are a better scientist in potluck probably I don't know what he had in there well I've had lungs on well yeah I've had a lot of experience at doing uh liquid helium and high vacuum experiments down to 10 minus eight ten or minus nine and by God that takes a week to clean out even the smallest container of we achieved 10 to the minus six over here and that's about the limit we can do yeah but that doesn't mean you've got rid of the water vapor sits there and and it also forms if you read some of my uh discussions about uh measurement techniques it forms pools of charge uh called patch charges and you're you're dealing with high voltage you're going to have little patch charges where they're leftover water vapor it's sitting on the side even at 10 to minus six and they're gonna think that would really have that much effect though on this experience I don't know it's just if you're going to write a scientific paper where you're going to have someone try to replicate it uh at least realize that this is a possible uh artifact uh that and and it coats water vapor coats the inside of of superconductors too you know superconductors aren't monolithic that's not like a a block of aluminum it's crystalline uh it's it's crystals that are pressed together and there are interstices and water vapor especially like hydrogen and helium love to get in there and just sit how much would you heat the surface to desorb the water uh I can't recall what we did but it was uh probably just like 60 C or something like that for uh under vacuum for for quite some time could never get rid of it whether it makes a difference I don't know I'm just saying that it's something to keep and keep in mind hey George um and I gotta go he's been talking about the voltage but if you had to estimate the the current or watts and watts in that experiment that you did what would you estimate the order of magnitude of the amps and watts would be uh it would be on the order of perhaps a milliamp or less Van de Graaff machines operate at microamps that's what I was getting at and was there any other capacitors in the system other than the domes on the mic no no my my recollection from the paper which I haven't read in a long time um was that he had a capacitor bank now that was number three where to use the essentially a marks Bank yeah a cheapo marks Bank um and I can't remember what the voltage was I I keep thinking a megavolt in my mind but the mega Volt is only you know you take yeah this this uh uh diode and capacitor stage of the of the marks bank and you'd have 10 of them so you just multiply by 10 and you think oh that's my voltage uh it's generally not the case um in a marks bank but it's it's better than a an event graph yeah but my my what I was getting at is in my model of gravity which yep you were there in 2016 and stuff when I presented um the the effect that he's I that he's claims has everything to do with the did team the amps and the amount of uh pointing Vector behind those amps as they travel across the Gap milliamps isn't going to do squat right yeah I'm working on the same thing but a different kind of thing notes no superconductor no um there's no superconductors there's no uh low temperature problem or anything like that I've got 10 of these high voltage capacitors and I'm gonna charge them up with the Van de Graaff generator however slowly that is to what they can handle and then those capacitors are attached to this aluminum cylinder which then becomes ionized and then so it becomes very highly charged the error around it would become ionized as well um in a vacuum it would just have an electric field radiating off it but inside I'm going to have a spark gap and when I reach the level of the spark gap switch then as much of the current I can get out of those capacitors is going to snap across that spark gap and all the charge on on the cylinder is going to rush inside repulsive electric field which will push push this along and in a vacuum what would happen is it would be ejecting a pointing Vector of electromagnetic field in that direction and then inside would be another pointing Vector in the opposite direction but I've got end caps to crack to trap it so that that pointing Vector can't get out and the momentum just carries the thing along okay there could be a propulsion device that works on that principle that um but yeah I it's in an air it could be a Tic Tac type of propulsion moving a lot of air very rapidly uh in vacuum it could lead to lie on type propulsion let me know if you have if you if you can scare up about 150 000 we can do it in the lab here in a big vacuum chamber that'll be next year anyway I'm gonna have to go in a couple of minutes thanks George very much but uh any I mean email me if you wish uh now you have at least you can read the the little paper that I wrote on the the um gravity beam experiment and you can read the superconducting that spinning superconductor experiment you get the uh the recipe uh if you wish see you Gary George just one question um do you think pot enough was pulling your leg and making up or did he see something just didn't understand it uh boy intuition uh I think he saw something uh originally with the spinning superconductor I I think he and uh some others uh because there was a a a push to make um spinning superconductors into armaments or at the front end of armaments uh in the Soviet Union to uh cut down on uh barrier visibility and all sorts of other stuff uh so there was a set of experiments going on where superconductors were spinning and they were looking at the whether the Meisner effect was enhanced or not and and what the uh em shielding capabilities were because they were hoping to put superconductors on the nose cones and uh and uh and and there was uh some idea about using them for em shielding um so that the it's an EMP wouldn't mess up the electronics inside the missile and they figured oh man if we forgot the missile was spinning it always will spin basically uh depends on what the missile is so I wonder whether spinning superconductors are any good or maybe they're even better than non-spinning superconductors so there was a history behind looking at spinning superconductors and that may be why he can constantly said to me I can't talk much about this I can't tell you where it's from but it's because the military is clamped down on it and that made some sense okay given what I've just described um however um his woeful lack of knowledge about any other part of the spinning superconductor experiment apart from how to make the disc and what's needed uh you know we need a field to levitate it we need some fields to rotate it uh we need to get it down to 4.2 or just or between 4.2 and 10 Kelvin uh you know we we need to make sure that we see you know gravitational effects above it as that was all arm waving that's what we need do it just do it uh so uh from that aspect uh I had less and less uh confidence in exactly what they had seen above their superconducting experiments certainly if you blow smoke from a pipe over a cryostat there's a convection current there's always a convection current so if they weren't knowing that if they weren't experienced in in doing cryogenic work and some guy some major or something came in with a pipe and blew the smoke over and said holy this the smoke Rises I wonder whether that means there's an anti-gravity effect well you have to be pretty dumb I'm afraid to uh to make that correspondence um so there are a number of really fishy things uh but the but the impulse experiment do you think that they actually were knocking over pencils no I don't think the impulse experiment was ever done personally I I I I if if it was done it was the simple version with uh Van de Graaff in a bell jar the superconductor paste it on and then I don't know someone rattled up you know I I bumped into a table or something like that uh and the pencil rolled around uh that that's just I I can't give them too much credit for that um and of course just as the last thing um when I published the the paper in physics to see he immediately got back to me and said you're working for the government you're a government agent um you're a major in the uh intelligence in the Canadian intelligence service and it turns out there was a major Tom or somebody Hathaway of the same name and said I'm never going to speak to you again because you've ruined my reputation you've ruined my experiment uh this is the spinning superconductor so I never you never talk to me again um and you I I get the feeling from that kind of response is that he's not a scientist in that case and he was trying to defend something that really was pretty dicey anyway uh I'm gonna have to sign up George thank you very much thank you very much George okay George is that paid is that paper published in 2003 the physical c yeah because I got one here that's Hathaway Cleveland and about yes that was it that's 2003. yeah okay so it was later than I thought I I thought it was around 1999 or something like that it's on Research gate so y'all guys can find it here yeah okay send it along to those just before you dash George can you and Mark work out a possibility to um even if those superconductors you have are no longer good perhaps is there any way that uh you guys could arrange to get them transferred over there to Hawthorne and at least I'll I'll send you an email George also the bank information I need them I need to pay you for the Caps that you sent we got to work that out yeah and please just send it send a check a US check by a post or I'll give you uh my FedEx account [Music] yeah I think I have a couple checks left but yeah okay okay thanks bye bye thank you very much George okay wow that was amazing that was cool I'm sending the Hathaway paper