The LENR - Past, Present, and Future, by Dr. Francis Tanzella

Transcript

so good evening and good morning in in Bangladesh Welcome to our ABIA technical seminar session uh today we are very fortunate to have Among Us Dr Francis Tangela before I give his um brief introduction let us introduce ourselves that we are here for uh American Association of Bangladeshi engineers and Architects or aabea and we have Dr sufyan kandukar Hadley says a few words okay thank you on this uh thank you the keynote speaker I'm sufian Honker professionally I'm a civil engineers geotechnical Engineers I have worked on the nuclear power industry for 29 years so I have some knowledge to that uh the reactor that was built in Princeton for the fusion reactor uh we are involved on that so uh some basic knowledge there I also was the former president of ABIA Central and the founding president of ABIA New York Chapter Mr tarek uh hi good evening everyone and good morning in Bangladesh yeah I may came to Rick and currently I'm serving as a secretary for the ABS Central and professionally I'm working for California Department of Transportation we call it Caltrans and I've been here like uh with Caltrans for 25 years so here as a transportation engineer registered civil engineers in California yeah anything with the freeway that's what we do and prior to that I was working as an environmental engineer and also I was a faculty in back home Bangladesh University of engineering and Technology thank you hey thank you very professor absal uh well I um I'm chemist by training and I thought uh at Truman State University for many years and currently I I have the status of him professor emeritus and I'm no longer doing any research because I don't have a lab but I would like to do be engaged with some activities in the future thank you somebody bye oh hello uh this is uh I spent my lifetime working on designs of satellites uh my primary uh expertise being in guidance navigation and control although these days I have a small company we are working on more efficient power amplifiers for satellites RF Communications so that's what the keeping busy busy lately looking forward to your talk that's if are you there yeah hi this is Muhammad Asif I'm actually an Industrial Engineer all my life I work in the automotive industry pretty much everywhere from Australia Japan to us So currently I'm actually doing Turn Around for basically distressed companies merger acquisition and so on I'm based out of Michigan thank you wonderful um are you there you want to say hello yeah sorry I am here uh yeah my name is I work for MIT Lincoln laboratory as well as MIT campus so Lincoln laboratory I'm mostly involved with telescope James web telescope and also satellite tomorrow there will be my work will go to space topics satellite and at MIT campus I'm mostly involved with the MIT zero robotics this program runs inside the International Space Station it is a educational program for middle school and high school and also it is a PhD project basically we teach how to code International Space robot which helps as astronaut inside the station uh so a student learn how to write code and before MIT I work for DOD for 10 years in the cyber security domain let's go ahead makes me thank you thank you and last but not least we have ashik who is an environmental scientist ashik You Wanna Say Something hi good afternoon everyone this is ashiko Rahman um I'm currently working at the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection here in Harrisburg Pennsylvania um glad to meet you all I'm sorry I could not turn on my camera it's malfunctioning um and I I previously worked with nanomaterials in my PhD and in the overlapping areas of nanomaterials and water treatment and I recently got in communication with Dr ranis I think at the quranis for inviting me to attend this meeting this is actually my first time appearance in the aabs seminar series and I look forward to attending more in the future thanks everyone thank you and now let me uh say a few words we are really fortunate to have Dr Francis tanzilla the dark on this very complicated subject of low energy nuclear reaction but he has magic in his stock as you will see in a minute uh Dr Council has the best program manager in charge of low energy nuclear reactions at SRI International he is actually one of the handful scientists in the world who's contribution led to a successful demonstration of linear effect in layered tubes he earned PhD from UC Berkeley and did postdoc at UPenn and then he worked for Dupont and then he joined SRI where he used electrochemical techniques to monitor chemical reaction and rates in many processes including hydrogen and Palladium Dr d'angela has helped develop the linear electrochemical and calorimetry program at SRI his expertise extends beyond the measurement and control of horizontal dime Palladium linear reactor to include electrical or chemical and acoustic simulation I'm sorry acoustic stimulation of the Palladium hydrogen system to yield the linear process in solids in addition he developed different experimental nuclear measurements to determine the presence or absence of nuclear particle in linear processes is reproduction and modification of Palladium hydrogen uh code opposition process was able to assure that perhaps produced in the chromium 39 solid state and nuclear tract detectors were not of chemical origin but of nuclear origin he has hosted many Lena researchers in attempts to reproduce and understand their processes and devices Dr Tangela has published more than 75 papers in the field of learner and related subjects he is a proponent of displaying the extension of existing plasma Fusion theories to learner and finding overlapping hypothesis when possible with that it is my extreme pleasure and honor to present to you Dr Francis canzela all right thank you very much honest it was very kind words um so let me see if I can get my PowerPoint up and running according to the instructions and we go here share then we go here and do that and okay can everyone see my slides yes you can see it okay so the system is working okay so yes I'm very glad to be here look forward to uh hopefully some nice discussions as you can see I left SRI in 2018 after 32 years uh started a small small meaning a single member LLC called The Energy Research Center and I have a small laboratory about two miles away from my house with a fair amount of uh electrical equipment and surprisingly uh germanium gamma spectrometer and a couple of things like that and I will you know not talk about that since nuclear measurements are not my expertise uh and like I mentioned my training was actually in synthetic inorganic chemistry and let's go okay choose down okay Leonard background on March 23rd 1989 Fleischmann and ponds reported results of their work uh pretty much at a press conference which is very uncommon but it was an electrochemical reaction with heavy water d2o with lithium in it and Palladium cathode so that the deuterium was depositing on the Palladium and it was well known that when you deposit that sort of Palladium that sort of deuterium on Palladium or any hydrogen isotope it absorbs in and diffuses in to the Palladium uh it was at a level the heat effect that they saw was at a level consistent with nuclear but not chemical energy or known lattice but occurred mostly without any penetrating radiation uh and the nuclear level affects observed in the system I've been a hundred to a thousand times more energy than known chemical effects this is when they're integrated over time so we're talking energy here um time for my first story it just happened at the time we were working on measuring hydrogen in primary coolant in fission reactors mostly Westinghouse pressurized water reactors and one way to do that is with Palladium so we had a device with Palladium wire inside a letdown line at a fission power plant specifically Turkey Point in Florida and we were measuring the hydrogen present hydrogen is added to counter out the oxygen to prevent oxidation but you then have to measure the hydrogen to prevent hydrogen embrittlement so it's a very difficult convoluted method they were using at the time and this one was much easier now we couldn't get real access to primary coolant uh like I said it was a letdown line so Mike mccubery who was my program manager at the time called up one of his buddies in chalk River Ontario and he was up at chalk River testing our device on the day of the March 23rd announcement in 1989 which is very interesting because when palms and Fleischmann were announcing deuterium or cold fusion in d2o with electrochemical methods we were actually using Palladium we were actually passing current through Palladium in one of the Canadian can-do reactors which uses d2o so we felt pretty confident that maybe we knew something about it in addition Mike mccubery had actually spent time with Martin Fleischman and Stan ponds when they were both in England and of course after the press conference and the American physical society meeting uh Steve Jones who at at about the same time claimed muon catalyzed Fusion there was a large controversy and and a lot of this debate going on oh I guess at this point I should mention that I have plagiarized a lot of slides from a lot of my friends and I will apologize to them next time I see them and this this one is from Dave Nagel okay early studies yes one of Mike mccubree's favorite saying was to a man with a hammer every problem looks like a nail and that what that meant in this field was yes there were a bunch of electrochemists and but that wasn't everybody and I'm talking immediately the first one to three months there were people trying all kinds of alternative methodologies instead of Palladium using nickel or titanium and light water and even non-aqueous and then instead of lithium different alkali metals and then using gaseous experiments would either deuterium or hydrogen and those same Metals electrical discharge underwater or d2o low energy plasma arcs in gas phase sonochemistry sonofusion sonoluminescence a high voltage pulse stimulation and and this is only a small example of what everybody did at the time and this is just a graphical version of that slide that I just gave which is probably a good time for another story we were originally well the original hydrogen measurement was funded by the Electric Power Research Institute and so Mike mccubery asked the contract monitor Tom pasl you know okay this is a really interesting topic we're experiencing it can we take a little bit of money and some time away from this project and work on cold fusion and Tom pasl agreed uh and yes Mike always embarrassed to say that he thought we could solve the problem with fifty thousand dollars in three months so here we are 34 years later and I think SRI spent upwards of 10 million dollars on it but another story because this was Embry uh we would go over there all the time it was it's just five miles away from Sri and we go over and I remember in the early days probably within a month or two in it one of the epri scientists asked the question in analogy he asked whether it was 1909 or 1939 trying to find out okay was it Rutherford back when he first saw the new particles coming out of nucleus and 50 years away from a practical fission reactor or was it 1939 when Fermi fooled his simple control rods out from his carbon reactor and saw excess heat and it was only 20 years away from that first fission reactor well obviously it was not 1939 and we just hope it was a lot closer to 1939 than it was to 1909. okay just to give you an idea that this is International uh this is a a quick list of all the countries that have in the past and still do work on it uh who whoever made up this list I will have to oh yes tell Dave Nagel that he forgot Canada anyway and there's a this is a slide I gave as you can see six years ago so not all of these people are still working but this was the people in North America working on it at the time and you can see there were people doing research people presenting funding people trying to commercialize and people working on mechanism and my friend down at the University of Texas who is working on legal uh he actually was at the LBJ School of Law at the time has now moved on to archiving data and working on the history but not this sort of history the history to create to collect all the information necessary that people working in the field could use years from now so back to Sri since that's most of what I know uh we did some important things in our measure the the deuterium Palladium loading and the electrochemical system was not well known a lot was known about hydrogen up to an extent but nobody knew about deuterium up to very high loading so we did a lot of that and I'll present a slide on that and we worked with chemical additives poisons and then of course a fully automated flow calorimeter which I will show a a figure of and then about 2000 we decided okay there's a lot of people out there doing different things and we can't do it all so we invited certain people to come over and to work with us to show us what they were doing and we had a protocol if possible the researcher would come over run the experiment their way we'd look over their shoulder then we would run the experiment hopefully their way while they were looking over our shoulder and then they would leave and we would run the experiment on our own and start tweaking the knobs and this is an example of some of the ones that that we did and I'm going to talk about probably two of these and there's that resistance ratio versus loading function so if you find out early that you need to be 0.9 uh deuterium to Palladium then this chart tells you when you can do a resistance measurement what where where that is so you know whether or not you're there and we used it regularly we had online uh four terminal AC resistance measurement in all our DC electrochemical cells and this is an example of our best early calorimeter as you can see in a thermal efficiency of over 99 and an absolute accuracy of plus or minus a third of a percent and it's rather convoluted and Mike mccuber used to like the joke that we dragged the calorimetry methodology out of the 19th century and at least into the 20th if not yet into the 21st century and this is different than most of the calorimeters that people use they used to use bomb calorimeters for measuring energy coming out of a very fast reaction whereas this is a slow some some of these experiments take months and another one of our experiments real let me stop here for a second and interject in plasma Fusion people are taught that there are two branching ratios generally the one tetridium or the one to helium-3 and but people will admit that there is a third one but those first two are split pretty much evenly at 50 percent and then there's one down several orders of magnitude which is shown here which is a direct uh reaction into helium-4 with a 23.8 Mev Photon gamma coming off and so in one of our experiments we had actually we had two experiments that were sealed in this particular experiment since it was sealed well enough we can measure the helium in the headspace and talk about the excess energy that was measured and so on the left is a chart which shows the measurement of how much helium was in there and how much energy so the helium is all along the left axis and the energy is along the right Axis and they more or less follow each other so if you were to plot all of those of on the right side with energy in kilojoules integrated energy versus the helium increased concentration you see something that you could draw a straight line through and when you take the slope of that line you end up with a number either 31 or 32 mevs with some very large error bars and we always felt that we just didn't get enough helium out of the metal in order to get it closer to 24 Mev now it may not be 23.8 Mev because the method and the mechanism is going to be different in inside a lattice than it is in a two-body reaction and I'm not going to talk about mechanism uh like I said I'm trained as a synthesis chemist and spent most of my career as an electrochemist I leave that to others and fortunately or unfortunately for the field there are at least as many mechanistic hypotheses as there are researchers um one of my good buddies okay that wasn't going to go there anyway one of my my good friends just had a conference call with Peter hagelstein in the radio laboratory of electronics at MIT uh two days ago is one of the people with one of the better hype mechanistic hypotheses that I agree with so this was a another pseudoelectrochemical experiment if you look down in the bottom right you see there's essentially a Palladium bottle filled with Palladium black Nano powder and sealed with a high pressure and so what happens if you put that as the cathode an electrochemical cell with lithium-duteroxide or lithium hydroxide you actually deposit the hydrogen isotope on the surface of the bottle and it diffuses in to the Palladium black and now you have an extremely high surface to volume ratio so you can get a very high deuterium to Palladium ratio and we ran that experiment for a month and I don't expect you to follow all of this but the blue line down there which is the straight line come out of the green dots is the Excess power that came out of the light water experiment and the red line which is and the purple line is the best one through the heavy water experiments you see has quite a bit more energy but well power and energy so that proved to us that there's something about this methodology that can actually perform the electrochemical Fleischmann pons effect but since it was a sealed bottle we wanted to look at what the gases were in it so we sent it up to McMaster University in Canada and Brian Clark sliced it so this is a slice out of one of the across this and this is a quadrant of that slice and he got seven pieces out of it and measured the helium-3 and measured yes measured to helium three so you see very close to the middle had a very large helium-3 content but as it gets towards the outer wall it's down by a factor of four or five and the hypothesis is that created tritium in the Palladium black and then it diffused out as hydrogen does through these different layers but it took so long that the tritium actually decayed to helium-3 and that's how you get this helium-3 uh Decay pattern okay now another experiment we did at SRI and there isn't a whole lot you can see here but this is an electrochemical cell on this side is the anode Platinum anode between these two magnets and in there is the cathode which is generally either Palladium or nickel and then a Palladium chloride lithium chloride solution and heavy water is in there and it's slowly deposited over here the Palladium deposits first and then during the Palladium deposit some of the deuterium deposits on it and that continues on this takes weeks and you do it slowly enough you grow a very nice crystal structure and behind that is a 25 micron mylar film and behind that film is a piece of cr39 solid-state nuclear tract detector this is a technology from 50 60 70 years ago before people could afford expensive uh gamma spectrometers Etc and we were actually looking for Alphas since people had reported those in the past and we had seen helium-4 but this was sent over to a co-worker in Moscow who analyzed it and actually did many more uh etching experiments on it and did a fair amount of calibration and proved it was protons that protons were causing those tracks and this was published in the international Journal of hydrogen energy and there's a a DOI reference there or anybody who's interested ah first I'll take a second and talk about brillo and energy yes among all the people we worked with there are many more but real and energy is the only one that was in the Bay Area uh they're in an off-campus startup in Berkeley and they came to us asking us if we could look over their calorimetry and we did some of that and I've given talks about it and we've published it but this we were trying to find out what the nickel looked like what they have is nickel is sprayed on an alumina coating and there's a return uh copper underneath that and I have to be careful what I do with my Mouse um and we wanted to see what the nickel looked like so we sent it off to honest Ramen and he performed his magic with his terahertz lattice scale Imaging and these are the results and unfortunately I wasn't able to get the animation working but these lines show the lattice spacing and the Imaging showed the lattice spacing was 0.45 microns versus 0.35 microns for Pure nickel which gives you a calculated density of almost half and so there is a hundred by hundred nanometer image and then there's that very nice 3D perspective image which unfortunately is not going to rotate today but down in the bottom right corner is the Fourier transform analysis that where you calculate the lattice spacing and that's all I know about it if you want any more you can ask honest and while we were at it and there's the reference while we were at it we had on us do some spectroscopy same stuff and there's the setup if any of you don't know how his Equipment Works feel free to ask uh honest not me um and it's a frequency domain of absorbance was collected in the terahertz region uh and so there are four different samples there and then there was also a close-up which I didn't show but the Peaks are in the range of published phonon vibrations calculated for nickel and so that kind of gave us confidence that we knew we were looking at nickel and not something else okay and like I said there are a bunch of other people working in the field [Music] and okay so this one is from Ed storms he has a really nice seabec calorimeter I don't know how much of you are familiar with cbec calorimeters uh zamon effect there's just a bunch of thermocouples tied together in series and this calorimeter I think has over 200 of them totally encasing it inside the insulation and so you just measure the voltage of all those thermocouples tied together and that can be calibrated proportional to thermal power giving out and so you measure the electrochemical or the electrical power going in uh Ed storms has run both electrochemical cells and gas cells with resistive heaters in them and both of them have resistive heater calibrations and so what you see down below is a comparison of the electrochemical cells and the gas cells in the left plot is Excess power versus temperature and you see and was able to go to higher temperatures of course without the electrochemical cell but all three of all three of them even the one with no current after he turns the current off so Excess power and then if you plot that verses 1 over T and the log of Excess power you get an erroneous plot and Ed shows that there's an activation energy that you can find for these two different experiments or two different activation energies with an inflection at higher at about 50 degrees C okay oh one of the more recent things is this fellow Frank Gordon he used to be at a Navy lab in San Diego worked in the same place with um Stan Spock and Pam Mosher boss oh I should mention that that co-deposition experiment that I did with the cr-39 was originally done by Pam boss and that reference I gave was probably to the second paper in back to back papers in the journal the first one was with Pam boss and Larry forsley and the second one was with myself and Alexi racetsky and the late Andre Lipson in international Journal hydrogen energy so I'm not going to go through this but Frank Gordon has done this he's given it to five different labs and they've all reproduced it and what you see is a voltage coming out and if you put a load on it you can measure the current and this is just either Palladium hydride or Palladium deuteride on a brass nipple uh inside it's co-deposited similar to what uh boss and Spock did on usually a pretty simple copper wire or yeah oh yes right it's brass on brass it's just stuff you can go by at the hardware store and so there's how it's all constructed and how it's sealed and like I said four or five different Labs have measured that voltage in current now it's not a very high current at this point but Frankie's convinced that it will scale and it will be part of one of the gas phase Technologies used in this field and okay there's a lot of work in Japan as I mentioned this one again is a busy slide but as you can see everything is Tiny if you look in the top right you see you have this 100 Micron nickel with sandwiches a two nanometer copper and 14 nanometers nickels and they make about a stack of seven of those and he passes deuterium through them and at different temperatures and sees Excess power this is where it's stacked and that's how they do their calorimetry this one is taken a lot of interest recently uh Professor Mizuno at Sapporo University has Palladium on a nickel mesh in heated deuterium gas and this one here he has in his living room heating his living room with uh 50 watts in and 300 watts out so he's showing that something's going on this one is only two hours long the original work that was done in his living room was 24 to 48 hours long and then Google Google spent believe it or not 10 million dollars on a bunch of people to take a look at the methodology and the Material Science and the physics and all of that and those are the four program managers that they funded those are the institutions represented in their groups since you know none of this is done by four program managers so down below I think Matt travithick who is the program manager running this at Google said there are 27 people involved in this work and the bottom line is they didn't see Excess power but they put together some very good technologies that can be used to look for Excess power and nuclear effects and they published it all in nature perspective which is good because it means other people can get in the nature perspective the U.S department of energy has taken notice and they've put out a program uh some of them are the same you may recognize the name Thomas shankel who's in the the Charleston project you just got an award uh there's a fellow at Stanford who I've only not yet met but he's nearby obviously and then one of those the two that are labeled cat b means category B they're doing measurements for the other six people and and I don't want to get into much of the detail here the work at MIT as Florian Metzler who's in the same group as as Peter hagelstein at rle and any of you at MIT are more than happy to contact Peter or Florian here's a summary by my friend Dave Nagel uh nuclear reactions can be caused thermal energy is measured can't be explained you get that 2000 EV per atom uh and products that cannot come from chemical reactions tritium helium and a lot of other people have seen other things and ends a short bibliography if any of you are interested these are places that you can look for any of the information it's out there Jed Rothwell ones leonardcanner.org and he has probably five or six thousand references in his bibliography now and I'll thank all my people from whom I've plagiarized and I thank you for your attention and ready to take questions wonderful well I I I think you made a lot of shortcut but but we did learn a lot particularly that the energy that's coming out cannot be from chemical reaction it is of nuclear nature so with that let us open the floor for questions I have number one question yes please okay is there any um since I'm working mostly with the space technology is there any uh uh experiment on the space related nuclear yes I couldn't get everybody in I it's not an exaggeration to say that there are a hundred different groups probably doing 50 different methodologies but one of those groups is at Nasa Glenn and I don't know if you're familiar with their work contributed that yeah Teresa Beno and Gus fralick and Larry forsley um to my mind that's probably the only people who are public um there were people at Langley NASA Langley but I haven't had any contact with them in a while I see okay I have another question sorry please please so um I mean uh involved with the NASA working group on International Space Station is there any test can be done in the station related to this type of experiment an interesting one that I've always thought of Palladium in particular when you put hydrogen Isotopes deuterium or hydrogen into it the crystal structure expands by seven percent in all directions and the volume increases by I think it's close to 40 percent and it'd be interesting to see how that worked in uh yeah microgravity yeah well that will be very interesting yeah go ahead go ahead sorry some of our astronaut they're interested in uh like microgram testing this type of stuff in microgravity okay I'm sure if I bring it into the field um yeah because as you know the people at Nasa Glenn are working on propulsion yeah the reason I'm asking that uh if if you're interested then we can submit a proposal to the International Space Station National Laboratory so they they will set up the test bed for you hey I'll put a note out there's a news group that has about 400 people and well two or three news groups but the one I spend most of my time with has you know 300 to 400 people and I'll put out a note to see if any of the researchers there have ideas that they feel would gain by use in microgravity sure thank you yeah thanks for your question so if I may interrupt a little bit because I see that two of the scientists from baec has joined us from Bangladesh one is Dr Tariq chaudhuri other one is Dr tabiru Hassan so it's actually tavirul is the one who initiated this and this initiative so if you um all right and W are Tariq if you wish to uh turn on your camera and introduce yourselves and then say something or if we have a question hello um thank you for giving me the floor I am Hassan um I really appreciate for you the expert on this field to take time and discuss this topic in front of us um for me I can say that I'm really interested and uh I have learned so many things and I have understood that there are so much to learn from for me from my field where am I right now and I really wish that I could work on this project and the guidance from you thank you so much uh thank you so much for giving me the pro and uh I'm giving you uh back to it okay thank you thank you and Antarctic I have not met you yet so if you want to turn on your camera maybe or if you have any question but introduce yourself please this is your microphone is not working so anyways I will I will mention that Tariq is directory is it working you know he is a chief scientific officer at Bangladesh atomic energy commission and maybe we can connect later at a time when uh and and also director yeah yeah we can hear you now go ahead okay okay thank you thank you assalamualaikum my name is Tariq Chaudhary I am a physics background and I am basically working on solid state physics and semiconductor thin film and recently I'm working on nuclear accidental analysis especially it is related to the atmospheric uh dispersion model uh I in in the in my early careers I worked on contest metal physics theories uh like graphene semiconductor device and like this so uh thank you very much Dr Anis for giving me the opportunity to for to introduce this new field to us and hopefully we will work together in your future thank you very much and thank you very much for your nice presentation okay we will try to tap into the expertise of Dr tanzilla in the future and let's see if some collaboration can be developed uh we'll talk about it let's go yeah yeah we will talk about question now uh sufyan Bhai next uh thank you Alice this is a little above my experience and expertise the only thing what I could understand that there is a lot of concern that Leonard is is it a myth or is it the real thing obviously there are School two School of thoughts uh reciprocity of the same test has not proven Beyond doubt that cold fusion is possible doe has a different opinion they have concluded that that is most likely is not possible the only mechanism has been we have a we have a the best example of fusion is obviously the Sun or the star and that requires tremendous heat impression and that's what everybody is trying to do recently you probably saw that there was a success at uh that they could sustain generate almost 50 percent more energy input output for every limited time and that's where they're putting their money now that it can be sustained that is the feasibility in maybe another 20 30 years 50 years that Fusion may be possible what is is a proven technology as we know sun or any other star high temperature and high pressure can fuse those atom deuterium together in a electoral assist method still there are lots of question that at least I don't understand and I have a limited knowledge to begin with I have to say so it is still it could be option if it but most of the times the experiments what I understand could not be repeated and that does not give very good confidence that this is a methodology May produce energy through cold fusion so it's still more question than answers so maybe it is right maybe it is not but of course we we will only know once we have exhausted over our experimentation and will have proven that it is a sustainable either reaction it is being told that it is not only chemical Direction electrolysis but it is causing some kind of a nuclear Fusion so how do you prove that those are a lot of questions but at this point I think the world Community those who are working on the Fusion Energy they are more interested on the method of uh but there are two methodology has been looked into one is a laser based and one was magnetic talk about was in Princeton they pretty much gave up the prism reactor we actually built it I work for I used to work for retail Engineers that Constructor at that time so they pretty much gave up on the magnetic concept now they are pursuing on the laser concentrated laser may be able to fuse the two molecules the deuterium and generate the energy and recently they have been able to uh probe it successfully for few seconds so that is the most immediate hope that probably that will come much faster uh with the resources available and interests shown so we from our community think that that might be a more viable more provable technology in a learner we have a lot of questions not answered yet but you cannot just discard it on that ground that it it could be a alternate methodology but we are not at the stage to say that this is a Bible technology will give us a result in a short time at the same time I saw one gentleman from bayek I hope I understand that you must be working on the nuclear put nuclear power plant I don't know you know me or not I serve as the advisor outside advisor for the new nuclear power plant but my expertise on the Water Area cooling water systems I have been designing cooling water systems all over the world uh so uh working on the nuclear field I studied nuclear energy that was my minor for my doctorate I understand the mechanism of the fishing not Fusion so Fusion is a great if it can be achieved in our lifetime that will be the greatest achievements of this Century there is no question in my mind that that solves all the concerns we have radioactivity all those kinds of and infinite energy source if it can be solved in our lifetime that would be the greatest as I said achievement of this Century thank you again for the speaker I'm very grateful I learned a lot of things rapid on July very nicely presented the concept I have before I didn't understand anything about this methodology now at least I have some basic idea that how it works it is primarily we're saying is that the petroleum is absorbing those deuterium diffused into the and goes into that in that somehow either electrolysis or through some other mechanism producing more energy than it is required which is a good sign if it can be done thank you you're welcome um yeah there are two things one the department of energy is hedging their bets uh the one slide I showed rpe is part of Department of energy is just let a 10 million dollar uh program to eight different groups uh to study Lennar uh and they've set the bar a little higher or lower depending on your point of view I believe that a lot of people working in this field are moving to higher energies and a lot of people working in plasma Fusion are moving to lower energies so arpae set the maximum input energy at 500 Kev and I look forward to both of those groups getting closer together um the mechanism like I said uh there are at least 100 different mechanisms being discussed it's almost impossible to prove any of them um the one I trust the most from Peter hagelstein involves Resonance of say a billion atoms and instead of having the excess angular momentum interact with the photon field to give you a gamma the excess angular momentum from the energy given off interacts with the phonon field to excite the atoms and give off heat and for reasons not totally known the branch that works inside the solid state is primarily the helium-4 branch that's based on a little bit of data so so you primarily yeah a little bit I had a discussion with um um so so like if you mentioned that the foreign in a volume like structure inside that Palladium or in the sample that we worked with was was nickel right yes so he mentioned to me if I remember correctly that at certain conditions the bonus density goes way way up Spike a singular function almost and that on an energy can initiate the uh the transfusion they are not transmission but it's called Uh well his first step is electron capture and then the we'll buy a proton to give a neutron and then the the neutron uh gets captured by more protons until he makes H4 which is not been uh at least stabilized anywhere and that decays to helium-4 now his is one of a hundred hypothetical mechanisms out there and he doesn't have the time or resources to prove or disprove it but it keeps him going now the Burling gate paper that you mentioned I read that one and I also the Yetman Chiang of MIT is actually a ceramic guy which I met in a ceramic conference so um I mean they're credible people but Burlington paper of course had refuted that in all the all the evidence they found they didn't see any evidence of low energy nuclear reaction so so question is if I am an investor which I'm not uh neither am I why why would I put money in this when I mean I mean it's not like a situation like when Noah was making his ark on the dry land he was at least making something like it was an arc um too early but but still so so can you make the case please for me that why government or or citizens should put in put money in this thing well because energy around the world everybody needs more than one answer uh you know Fusion is not going to solve it uh solar wind Hydro is not going to solve it so it's going to have to be money will be put in to very many baskets and if it's not government it will be private investors but data so far that I've I mean I have seen before some very positive uh data one of the curl shared Indian paper with me they showed the excess energy in Mev which is very readable and some of your work that where you applied the RF field and I saw one one one paper of plot I forgot that shows energy much excess energy than the energy being input so why cannot this be a concrete evidence it's a materials issue it's the same as the plasma Fusion people have uh except our material is the active material and the plasma Fusion people are have containment issues but you know it it's still a materials issue and you're getting them we don't know what we need so we keep trying um the brilliant experiment is so complicated and resource intensive that nobody else is trying it so it is just one group nobody's attempting to reproduce it uh I'm I'm hopeful that of the six groups that are funded by rpe to do this will do some reproduction and we'll use the resources I have to emphasize that Doe decided rpe decided to emphasize nuclear measurement nuclear products as opposed to excess heat in all of the studies that they funded and those are just starting they're still putting their Labs together well it's very interesting conversation uh you have anything to add you asking me my mother asked if if he didn't say anything I mean do you have anything yeah I I listen everything uh very intensely even though I'm not a nuclear physicist I manufacture vehicles and very much on the Practical side but energy is a very big thing there's a lot of different development going on in the Battery Technology and others but definitely we need energy we need a lot of it energy a lot more um so my uh and Dr Angela you you describe a lot of the things and I obviously did not get 90 of it um not expected either but I could understand where you're heading the cushion I have is that obviously as the alternate energy Shield or going from fossil fuel to solar energy or wind energy still none of these two are enough and even the Battery Technology we haven't even talked about disposal of all those chemicals and all these batteries recycling they would all need energy even making an electric car requires fossil fuel to make a lot of stamping the plants the steel and everything so it's not really zero emotion when you look at all that so there is really no other alternative but going for cold fusion environmentally and I think uh the other gentleman explained very well the sun is a good example so my question is that is there enough funding that's coming from the government or appropriate bodies to support you know to support all the research work and everything do you guys feel that you know people are really pouring in a lot of money and I know it's at a very earlier stage everything that we do is always starts like that so I'm not at all pessimistic about it so so so my big question is that you know how seriously uh the federal government or even different organizations putting enough money in their research in this area because recently I saw it in a newspaper that you know yes we did get a net energy gain and the global problem is going to be solved I mean there was a very upbeat uh report but how do you feel about because you are so deeply involved in that do you feel that there is enough attention enough funding is given to do this kind of research and not really but uh one thing I didn't mention uh because like I said I'm not a mechanistics person and there's another large uh pot of money has been funding groups in the EU for the last two or three years and they're mostly academic looking at fundamental work uh and hopefully enough will come out of that to convince people that we have a mechanism that we can study but in the rest of the world like I said the 10 million dollars that just went into six or eight groups is well is obviously a very tiny amount and it's not emphasizing the Excess power or excess energy generation and so yes I'm hoping that something useful comes out of both the EU funding and the rpe funding that helps convince both governments and private investors to put in the very large amount of money and organize things in a way that we can move forward um it's it's not money alone it's organization and like I said there are probably 80 groups active today around the world but they're very poorly coordinated except for the EU groups I think those are very closely coordinated and hopefully rpe will do something like that so they can coordinate people to have positive results and right now people are people who've been worked in the field for a long time are frustrated because most of the people who got that rpe funding aren't talking to the people who have made Excess power for the last few decades and and I think that was really my point I mean my brother was a nuclear physicist at nist and unfortunately passed away a couple of years ago and he was very much involved in setting up the proton lab at at nice so I had a privilege of visiting that place the doe and the nist are they deeply involved with this um and and and what you really need to do in order to get the focus and the funding and a I think you touched a very important point in the organization behind that so there is a cohesive group that developing something like this because I think it's it's it's very exciting and it's worth putting every bit of money in it well I think like I said I'm hopeful that the arpa E program will lead to results that helps the rest of doe get interested in throwing you know real amounts of money at it and or even if it's just positive and the government doesn't get interested I think private Investments can do that um and it really only takes one or two Champions and that's we would have never gotten to this point in rpe without a couple of Champions who have come in and said okay there's something here we don't know what it is we don't know if it can ever be practical but we need to study it because as I said we need all those options to in order to move forward and meet our needs so my very last question given where we are today what's your prognosis in terms of finding an application at the end that solves a global problem with energy what's your thoughts on that um I think Leonard has a place to be it may not be you know the replacement uh Robert goddess thinks it's going to replace all those abandoned assets of half gigawatt coal-fired power plants maybe that's not it maybe it's a small battery maybe it's a backup battery maybe it's a Transportation uh battery or even a transportation engine an energy source but uh I I don't know where it is I just feel that it will have a some utility somewhere in the future even if it's just an analytical tool thank you sir very kind appreciate that yeah you're welcome uh anyone has any other point yeah please yeah several many questions came some funding and things like that so uh to the best of my knowledge funding was not the criteria that this resource did not advance when the more accepted technology which is as I explained is the Sun for the future doe has funded tremendously they have funded two uh reactors one in Princeton and one in California one is a laser-based and one was magnetic High Magnet waste and they have funded completely so funding was not a concern at any point any research I was not aware of that they have recently allocated 10 million in the peanut for doe absolutely if they are convinced if you can convince them they will come up with the money in addition to that as uh Dr tanzel already mentioned you is funding tremendously Japan is funding after that one experiment successful uh the whole industry has been uh very active as you know that a lot of the things are being tested in a super collider at one point we are building the super collider in Texas then we abandoned it in Europe they have built it already so it is money is not going to be the problem for this everybody thinks the energy is going to be the biggest problem in coming decades and that has to be solved solar when these are partial Solutions solar as a problem of stories because it can only produce power when there is a sun have the time there is no sun so other combination of all all those things probably and the best hope we have is the fusion reactor and everybody thinks that and I think in terms of funding is concerned that will not be the uh um hindrance as long as this process or the research is on the right path as the as long as the government is convinced that there is a hope they will come up with the money of course the private sector comes a little later they will unless it is a venture capital otherwise like modular reactors Bill Gates came up with his own money to build the first one in so that will when there is a Technologies available it is a question of uh building a reactor prototype reactor and general the power in those areas private funding will be more active than on the research side research is normally majority of the research will come from the government and I think the uoe has a big fund Europeans is a big fund and the Japanese are very active also so as long as they can prove it the scientists can prove it that there is a viable solution they will come up with the money I I agree but I I have to add uh are you familiar with Carl page and The anthropocene Institute no I'm not okay um Carl is one of the investors in Brillo in but more importantly uh he and anthropocene invested in several uh plasma Fusion startups and and he does believe that there is a future uh obviously in the plasma Fusion side now he he and anthropocene can't fund at the levels that nif and jet and those people get but he can fund these small startups and I think he's funded five or six of them and so yes I think there is a place for private money in the early stage uh even in the plasma Fusion game and in the SMR the small modular reactors uh yeah and and to the point of Dr khankar is that for for to take the research shape one is funding too so it's a lot of uh uh you know kind of political uh or dogmatic thing comes in why the making a sound on the earth gets billions of dollars and why this Lena Roars don't get the money they are they're a lot in it it's not just the results but anyway I have one question Dr tanzilla which is uh we have here Dr uh Dr Tariq children and Dr tabiru Hassan they both are from Bangladesh atomic energy Commission if they want to learn more about it or do something about it what is your suggestion how they can get started well first um well my slides have been recorded yes yes I have recorded it the particular I can bring it up again but the references on the last page um uh let me share it again uh is is a good place to start uh would it be okay oh please yeah please contact me yeah would you be able to share your presentation today with us um yes uh you've you've recorded it but sure I can send you uh a copy of the presentation and again I apologize that it was so thin but uh it's 34 years and you know a few hundred researchers you you can't really do it in one presentation right right um but yes I'll send you a copy of this and in addition I'll send a copy of a few links that I give to people who are new to the field uh to get their feet wet and figure out who's doing what and what in fact there's a lot of young people in the field who don't know the history yeah so yes I'll send to you uh my copy of this and some of those on the last page there are are very good places to start and the last two conferences almost all of the presentations uh at least the video the presentations are available online so yeah okay anybody I'm and my email is on the front slide and feel free to send me I will share your email with them as well yeah right yeah yeah I was right in the front okay all right so and anyone has any more questions please go ahead do you have any question actually um so new to this don't have uh just uh one simple question that uh I have seen from uh Mr uh from the presentation that there are so many approaches already uh being done with this topic so uh the best results or best hope of course is uh that I remember is the following interaction uh with uh the planar system so so should we uh should we think about approaching specifically that equipment or setups or uh should we just study and explore on the other also other uh well one one thing yeah it's a very important question uh and you were on the right track one of the things all the experiments that you have seen in the in the references and if you study a great majority of them is to sort out if it is electrochemistry or not yeah so very few actually targeted uh direct the transfer transmutation direct transmutation experiment so so I think a good uh and I will ask Dr tanzila for his suggestion but I think that a good place to start is not to you know repeat all the others who have tried to refute that is it is the electrochemist ETC no we you start from the you know hydrogen to deuterium deuterium to tritium and and that is the kind of approach whatever the mechanism may be be it for none be it the plasma fusion and which is most uh likely is the plasma Fusion is very promising and then I have some references which I will share with you but we'll ask Dr tanzila if he wants to add anything please yeah one of the things that people have kicked around in this field for a while is something they call a lab rat which is an experiment that's so easy that you could give it to somebody explain it to them over the phone and they could redo it reproduce it um there have been several attempts the one that I showed with the uh co-deposition of Palladium and deuterium and the cr-39 is one that's been tried and that one's relatively simple the analogy that I like to use is back in 89 for those of you who remember high temperature superconductors the announcement was at a very similar time frame and within three months uh high school kids were operating the shake and bake process and showing the meissner effect and so people in Cold Fusion have been trying to say well what can we do to produce that same kind of Interest by making an experiment that a high school kid could do there we go all right I guess we arrived at the hello Dr Anis can I ask something yeah yeah go ahead yeah uh thank you very much this is a very limiting uh presentation so a very fundamental uh problem is that uh maybe the issue is the material issue so is it possible uh to do some experiment with Ramana spectroscopy uh to find a preliminary idea about the criteria of having cold fusion just preliminary ideas because I saw some phonon pics in San Angelo's experimental uh measurement so is it possible to have a preliminary idea using Ramana spectroscopy that whether this material is suitable for coefficient experimental yeah let us talk about it a little later again maybe not today but I would I would recommend that you formulate some experimental study and we can see if we can convince Dr tinsel or some other people to find some sample him and you guys get started we'll work on it maybe not to write right away but okay okay yeah but if you can make a proposal that would be we can discuss with Dr tanzela okay we will we will talk about it later on yes yeah and if I can mention one thing one researcher whose work I did not show uh Mitchell Schwartz who by the way is a radio oncologist by day but the cold fusion researcher in the evening has a Raman spectrometer on his experiment and he finds an anti-stokes line that he uh can identify with one of the deuterium hyperfine structure frequencies oh that's wonderful so so you are on the right track darling okay okay thank you thank you okay we will we we will work on it later on yes okay yeah if you send me a note I'll send you some of the references to uh Mitchell's work yeah okay thank you thank you thank you very much and thank you enough Dr tanzilla and all others Dr Sophia come together later in the night um and I I can't appreciate enough that that we had this opportunity to listen to and have this discussion um you know skepticism is a part of research process we are always a skeptic uh and that's for healthy reasons skepticism is not bad thing uh Because unless I'm skeptic about my work or somebody else's uh truth never comes out so and again realizing appreciating takes also skepticism so with that I thank you all and this program is recorded so we'll post it uh and with that good night for for today all right good night good night thank you so much thank you so much you're welcome