Unlocking the Secrets of UFOs: How UAP Could Change Science Forever - w Garry Nolan | Merged EP0101

Transcript

are we alone is this evidence of extraterrestrial  activity or something that's maybe already been   here or was here forever and before us  which opens the question of do we really   own this planet the other answer is just as  interesting it might be depressing the other   answer is we are alone at least here and  nothing has been here that's interesting   but it still begs the question what is it 

that everybody's seeing right so you still   have to explain it so no matter what the  answer is here the answer is interesting thank you Dr Gary Nolan is the director nhlbi  proteomics Center and professor of   microbiology and Immunology at the  Stanford University School of Medicine   Dr Nolan received his PhD from the Department of  genetics at Stanford at the herzenberg laboratory   and his BS in genetics from Cornell 

University he was a post-doctorate   fellow in the laboratory of Dr David  Baltimore MIT in Rockefeller University   he is the author of over 120 peer-reviewed  papers and holds numerous issued patents and was   recently honored as one of the top 25 inventors at  Stanford University so Gary thanks for joining us   today we've met before a couple times once at a  scientific Coalition for UAP studies conference   um actually I think that was only time but 

it's it's a pleasure to to see you again yeah   well thanks to you guys for setting this up and  inviting me it's gonna be fun discussion awesome   um so let's kind of cut to the chase here you  know you're a very well respected scientist   you've been involved in the UAP topic and have  been vocal about it in a way other people haven't   um just lately we're now you know just to kind  of set the stage where we're about a month and   a half away or we've been waiting for a month and 

a half for this latest UAP report to come out uh   the National Defense authorization Act of 2023 uh  there's a a final version of that that is ready   to be voted on which has about 33 Pages worth  of UAP related uh whistleblower protections and   um accountability office you know research  projects and going all the way back to 1945   uh 1947 was on the original version now we're  looking at 1945 uh to go back for that analysis   um at the same time we also have major media 

Publications such as New York Times and wash   uh the Wall Street Journal um communicating  and expressing that you know the UAP bubble   has popped and that this is all nonsense uh more  or less and that that was really communicated   um on the day that the original UAP report was  due to come out uh and all those are all the all   that reporting seemed to kind of poo the idea  that this reported anything substantial to say   um now those articles came and went and now it's a 

month and a half later and the report's still not   finished uh what do you make of those articles and  and kind of the general communication that we're   seeing from the mainstream media on this topic  well it certainly leaves the impression that the   Articles were planned but what excites me about  that so-called planning is it shows you frankly   how disorganized they are because if they didn't  even understand that the ndaa uh or the sorry the   UAP report was going to come out in a couple of 

months it meant that they basically mistimed it   and so that to me tells me that whoever the  opposition is is not to be feared as much as   uh something that they should be who do you think  that opposition is do you think there is just a   general uh skeptical crowd inside that thinks  that this is a waste of resources is that kind   of the type of person that you think this would  be or the group well I mean without getting all   conspiracy conspiracy minded you know there are of 

course those people who are on the inside who as   you say they don't want to see wasted resources  but also you know this is an existential change   in how it is that Humanity sees itself and  so whether or not you're religious or whether   you're a religious uh changing where you are in  the hierarchy of things is an important change   in your psychological structure so there's always  going to be a pushback on that mentally but also   you know also there's the crowd effect that 

happens individually as I find for instance in The   Sciences individually I can talk to a scientist  and they're all open on the idea and they want to   know everything about it but in the crowd they  become another person and so I think there's a   little bit of that kind of a psychology going on  and because people often need outside validation   not just on these ideas but for themselves and  so if the more we start to see other individuals   outside in the community at large who are saying 

this is okay to talk about the further than   those who are on the inside will feel comfortable  coming out and doing things if that makes sense it   does yeah that's interesting and that's pretty  much what I've seen as we've been interviewing   different Pilots the more that they are sharing  their experiences the more they're learning from   other pilots on the air crew that they're sharing  the same experiences and they just weren't talking   about it before so yeah I think that's that's very 

sweet Point um so you know I'm a pilot or I was um   I'm not I don't have the the educational pedigree  that you have um when we approach this topic as a   as Pilots for us it's very pragmatic we're looking  at this uh from an aviation safety perspective uh   and that's really how I got involved because we  were almost hitting these things and we didn't   know what to do and we're canceling training  um how did you get involved in this topic   well a couple of different angles I mean the 

first one was uh working on that mummy that   people thought was an alien and I looked at that  and I was intrigued and I said well okay you say   that but okay who's doing the science to prove it  well I can do the science and so that was when I   reached out to the people who had it and uh got  access to some material from it we did the studies   we published it we showed it wasn't and that's  fine and I did something very similar it wasn't   an alien it was it was an unfortunate probably uh 

pre-term birth uh with a lot of genetic anomalies   um and you know we of course brought in  the world's experts in all of the various   sub-disciplines that were required to analyze  the thing everything from South American genetics   The Specialist happened to be at Stanford the  specialist in uh in um genetic bone disorders Etc   um because that's what you need to do with  these kinds of things if you can do it and   is easy enough you need to bring in then make a 

final statement about some of this stuff and so   for me and this is another this is the honest way  that I was going about it for me the the the doing   of that study uh the undertaking of that study  was because I really wanted to send a flag up as   I we were talking earlier a smoke signal to the  scientific community at large to see what other   scientists are able or willing to come forward  now that there's somebody willing to be out   there talking about this kind of thing openly um 

because and part of what drove me were discussions   I'd had with other scientists earlier on who told  me that I was going to ruin my career by getting   involved in this at any level and to be honest  that just got me angry and in fact if anything   it got me more determined that I should be doing  something about this because they were telling me   that something was clearly logical and well within  the realm of scientific analysis and study they   were telling me not to do it which to me just said 

they're more religious and cult-like than most I   think scientists should be I mean to me if you're  if you've agreed to be a scientist you've agreed   to a certain set of rules about how you explore  reality or nature and if you're breaking some of   the basic tenets of those rules then I I you need  to be disciplined and so for me it was part of   this impetus was this is something that I should  be doing or because I should I don't like people   telling me I shouldn't be doing doing something 

when I know it's right and so that brought me to   the attention of a number of other scientists who  actually were there who had been doing this kind   of work for decades as it turns out uh and um you  know I could I I felt the community growing and it   really but everything was going along I think in  a more Subterranean manner until eventually uh Lou   Elizondo reached out to me uh and uh with others  said this is what we're about to release and I   remember basically the day I was in Washington DC 

uh we met in Crystal City overlooking the Pentagon   at a bar and he showed me the video of what was  supposed to be coming out the Gimbal and the go   fast videos uh and that to me was an energizing  moment realizing that okay here it is this is it   uh this is you know whether that is sufficient  proof or not the fact that we knew that it was   going to be coming out of the New York Times I was  ready for uh what was coming and excited about it   I realized it wasn't going to be the end of 

the story that was just the beginning of it   but for me it was the first thing I sent  around to the people the scientist friends   of mine who'd said you know this is something  you shouldn't be doing I said look at this and   what's exciting now now fast forward what four  or five years later uh now there's so many of   my scientific friends who the first thing they  want to ask once we're dispensed with the usual   pleasantries about whatever science is they're 

doing Gary what's going on about the UFO stuff   I really want to hear well do they want it here  they want to do something about it so yes so   um Sean Parker who funds uh my lab um the Napster  Facebook Sean Parker funds my lab through um   through his immunotherapy of Cancer Foundation uh  he actually put down a fair amount of money at one   of the conferences that he ran for me to have a uh  basically the an evening uh of talking about this   matter flew in Lu Elizondo we brought in Chris 

Mellon via Zoom uh Lady Gaga was at the back uh   um uh hidden uh and um and I know he  put a fair amount of money into this now   was there sufficient data most these were my  scientific colleagues and many of them came up   to me afterwards and said well Gary you didn't  really show any data and I said well the reason   there's no data is because nobody else is helping  and so several of them said how can I help so   that's what changes you know it's it's you always 

do need somebody who has whatever the reputation   is that is necessary they can say okay well if and  I've heard this many times I wouldn't believe it   if it weren't for you and so you know people say  oh you're you're wonderful you're whatever it's   like no I'm I'm not wonderful I'm just telling you  that if you if you've agreed to the set of rules   like I was talking about before then and you're  not going to follow them then I'm not going to   think I'm not going to listen to your criticisms 

so it's a that's a very interesting philosophy I   would say or similar philosophy to some of the the  airline captains we've spoken to right they have   accepted the responsibility for all those lives  on the aircraft before they even stepped on the   aircraft they viewed the weather they've looked  at you know solar activity for solar flares I   mean everything you can imagine health of the uh  the the passengers right if someone is you know   has a potential heart attack on the plane be a 

problem and so it's very simple you've agreed that   you've accepted that responsibility not just the  pilots of cells but the the carriers themselves   the companies themselves and yet this is an issue  that they have a hard time reporting they uh have   received some of the pilots have interviewed  have received uh to see some resist letters   um and the their companies are just frankly not  supportive of that conversation um and I see it   being extremely similar parallel to the you know 

the scientific methodology that you've agreed to   you've looked at you've agreed to look at the data  and so when there is data available you're doing   scientific servers by not actually looking at it  right I mean and one of the premises that I've   pushed and this is you know I engage on Twitter  and I just started on Reddit is you know how do   we teach the let's say the uh the lay public  who's interested in this matter to talk about   the matter in a scientific way because I mean 

let's let's sort of take a couple of steps back   um how does a scientist believe what it  is that they see what how do we how do we   validate something so if you're a so-called  experiencer you experience something and as   many people know I experienced something when  I was young I saw a craft go right over my head   um so but I didn't know what it was at the  time there was no ufology at the time so for   me that was an experience and it's in many ways 

in conventional terms it's an anecdote but I want   to talk about the word anecdote a little bit in  a minute um and so I don't need proof of anything   to know that it's real but if I want to convince  my scientific colleagues then the agreement has   to be that there's another language that's being  used right so that language is the language of   science is something that I can create data  sets that can be handed to other people they   can either believe or not my conclusions 

or my assumptions my speculations about   what that data means so what I've been trying to  teach the uh the let's say the the lay public is   prove that the data is valid you don't  have to come to a conclusion you don't   have to believe it's the Pleiadians you know  from Alpha Centauri or something right you   just have to convince another scientist or  another individual that the data is real   once the data is real you get to actually turn 

the tables you now aren't responsible for coming   up with the answer you can now say look we're  scientists to the extent that you're interested in   this data you tell me what it is that you think it  is help me speculate I'll give you a if if I give   you a speculation I'm not looking for you to throw  it on the ground stomp on it I'm looking for you   to work with me to figure out what the angles are  that best describe the data that we're observing   I agree 100 and I see that a lot of times people 

they either don't want to look at the data and you   really can't force them to really look at it you  kind of have to wait for them to be in a mental   state where they say okay I think that there  might be something here I'm going to look at it   but at the end of the day we we need more data so  you know maybe we can talk a little bit about how   we could do that do you have any ideas about how  we can expand uh our understanding and let's just   maybe let's pray maybe break this down to two 

different ways we can talk about maybe sensing   and how we're going to understand where these are  and then maybe we can kind of talk about further   understanding them on the material side if that's  possible and I know you have a little expert well   more than a little expertise but lots of expertise  and most likely both of these but um what do we   know as far as the sensing goes we know that we  can detect these at least some of these objects   um we've done it uh with our Radars um varying 

powers of radar and we've seen progression of the   Fidelity of the radar track files as we increase  that power so we think that there is some type   of relationship there we know where to look we  need to perhaps modify the tools and the sensors   so that it's specific for this task in some sense  these all seem like pretty achievable uh problems   here what's what's the holdup well I think the  hold up frankly is that people are waiting for   Daddy to give them the data and daddy in this 

case is the is the government and the government   has we know the best sensors but you know we also  know that as technology progresses a lot of those   sensor systems actually eventually become publicly  available it might be in some way uh dumbed down   and not as sensitive as what's available there are  accessible systems so the Galileo project that I'm   a part of that Avi lobe at Harvard started uh he  has he's setting up a sensor system it's expensive   um he's using uh I would say more uh let's say uh 

an astrophysicists tool kit to look at the skies   uh but there are of course many other tool kits  that could be brought to bear uh and so you know   I think that to me the exciting part is well  let's collect the data on what this phenomena   is because once you see something moving in a  non-conventional manner it begs the question how   did it do it I'm I'm less interested who in who  might be behind them then what it is that they're   doing because what it is that they're doing breaks 

our current understanding of if they're real I   mean I'm gonna always be I'm going to remain  a skeptic to the at least for my scientific   colleagues to say because they don't necessarily  believe what it is that I think it is are so can   we collect enough data that tells us about what  it is and how it is that they're moving and then   can we look at the equations of physics that tell  us how it is that we might do something similar   because if if they are doing these things that are 

unconventional or frankly impossible as you know   as a pilot then uh somebody has access to either  levels of power or levels of physics understanding   that we don't appreciate I see a huge commercial  gold mine in that and so I mean I'll just jump   why do I think that way my whole career has  been creating technologies that I think of   as inevitable I look at something and I say ah we  need this kind of data nobody else has it because   if we have that kind of data we can jump here and 

so then I spend the time to invent that technology   every time that I sit in a lecture the first thing  that comes to mind when I'm watching stuff is okay   how can I use how can they use that what's the  best how how can we use this for patient benefit   um so with that same mindset I look at all of  the things that are going on right now in the UAP   Arena and say okay how can we do that what's the  what are the Exotic technologies that people are   already beginning to develop that might be part 

of the solution to what it is that those things   are doing because it's it's like you know those  those sins-like games where you build structure   you build something that builds something that  builds something you know are we going to be   flying around an anti-gravity craft next year no  but we'll anything along the path towards that   is an extraordinary Advantage even just small you  know improvements in efficiency or weight you're   writing those things yeah absolutely it's an 

evolutionary process I mean you you know you you   have to have a goal though Evolution doesn't think  but an evolutionary process can be brought to bear   on all of this because what you need to do is you  need to have what I've called a virtuous feedback   cycle where let's say that we we let's say we  had a piece of material from a craft from these   alleged crash retrievals you know the the word on  the street is from within that nobody understands   how these things operate they don't know where the 

battery is they don't know where the engine is uh   they don't know so uh somehow they are embedded  in the structure of the craft or maybe they're   beaming the power from somewhere else and I'm  just making all of this stuff up as I go along   so for the people out there who want to say that  I'm claiming all of this I'm not taking notes   um is so so okay so they're they're craft are made  of things apparently that are either extracting   energy or by themselves are the engine okay so 

those are probably made right down at the atomic   level there's some material aspect of these things  we can imagine that we don't know about we don't   understand just gaining that information will  say okay there's something here why did they   put this atom next to that atom next to that  atom now it might not that's not the solution   but seeing it first of all if it's something  that we can't make right or we have not ever   made well that's about as close to Smoking Gun 

evidence you're going to get but again I'm not   interested in saying who made it I'm interested  in saying or asking the question what does it do   because the understanding that will come from that  once something like that is available uh which is   not publicly available yet uh then you can bring  in the kinds of material scientists to say to sit   around a table and play what if because that's  what scientists are really good at and frankly   I think that one of the problems you know to 

the extent that any of the stories about Crash   retrievals are true where they say that they can't  understand it is because they haven't done this   sort of open science that can be done now open  science doesn't mean it needs to be talked about   you know it publicly in Academia but bringing  in academics is important so one of the so I   wrote a white paper to one of the intelligence  committees uh in the run-up to the ndaa uh and   one of the things that I put in that was you need 

to bring in academics you need to get them uh   clearances and is that a publicly available paper  what's that is that publication I have to ask   um but uh the uh the long and the short of it was  guess what's in the language there's language at   least I didn't check the last one but it was in  the language that said we'll start to bring in   academic scientists and it's it's not because  academic scientists are better it's not like   they're you know there there's lots of fantastic 

scientists in the government in the military it's   because they have a mindset of asking questions  that have uh not been answered they have an   exploratory way of doing things because there's  there's two kinds of science that are generally   done one is called basic research and the other  is translational if you have only a translational   mindset if you look at something and you can't  figure out what its translatability is to utility   then you might just walk away yeah as opposed to 

at least the time in which I grew up the basic   science is let's just collect information because  we don't know what the heck anything is this was   like the what happened for the last two centuries  but suddenly you have this extraordinary resource   and library of facts and factoids that with better  understanding now with a translational eye you can   go in and say I can put this together with this  and this so the tinkerer you know comes along   and says Ah this is the kind of things that I can 

do with it so that's I think that's part of where   I mean we're at the you know even if again these  alleged things are are real we're at the beginning   of collecting the basic information and then  saying how can we use this and you would think   that exists better under the material science  umbrella oh definitely yeah I mean you know so   let's look at the kinds of instruments that  are out there right now they're crude I mean   really are I mean you know the the best mass 

spectrometers uh that tell you what things are   made of for instance what atoms and Isotopes are  there I don't mean radioactive isotopes I mean   just variations of flavors of iron and flavors of  different um different elements uh understanding   what is there is not just saying there's this  percentage of iron and there's this percentage   of that it's knowing the exact structure of where  those atoms are so you know one of my friends and   colleagues who's actually the guy who helped found 

the Galileo project is Frank lockian so Frank uh   owns uh the CEO of Brooker Brooker is a huge mass  spectrometry company everybody in my field knows   this so guess what he's interested in he happens  to be interested in the UAP issue uh he's he's   funded that and uh so but even he realizes that  the technology is insufficient the granularity   that we require to understand these things is uh  not there now are we closed yes we're very I think   we're very close yeah there's there's several ways 

that I'm pursuing that uh will will get us there   um but I think the way to to look at it is that  even if all of the suppositions about UAP are   some kind of Illusion or mistake developing the  Technologies in expectation of understanding we   can turn those same tools towards simply you  know conventional materials because as I've   said you know to friends of mine we don't  even understand the structure of glass we   don't even understand frankly the structure of 

water an ice and we can make we can model it but   we don't know it and why would you want to know  that because if and you were involved in a sort   of a generative AI uh approach for materials is  there's this whole thing called structure function   um you can make a structure of something  and you determine its function and if the   structure works and and in a way that you want  then that's fine but usually Evolution you vary   the structure a little bit and then you say 

did the function change is it better or worse   um but the feedback cycle is best let's say  enabled and fed by an exact understanding of   what that structure is not a modeled understanding  that you did in silico and so this is the kind of   thing that better Imaging approaches of Imaging  of materials in situ will vastly improve our uh   larger industrial capabilities and then should  somebody say oh well that's a great capability   I have this thing in a vault that's been there for 

40 years maybe I should bring it out because maybe   you can help me with it yeah so this this type  of Technology we would be it now are we is is   this like a kind of pre-quantum level we're not  getting down to the area where Quantum effects   take place no it's um I mean that that of course  would be the next level uh this is just knowing   where the atoms are in 3D space at the at the  subangstrom level uh because down at that level   you can start to make best guesses as to the 

bond structure of the objects uh but this gets   into a slightly different area right and that's  um so Jacque Valley a friend of mine uh brought   me any of a number of materials that uh had a very  decent history Witnesses uh and chain of evidence   um involved with them and one of the materials  he brought was the so-called and very well-known   ubatuba event and so I went uh with Jacques over  to an instrument on Stanford's campus and the   engineering quad uh it's called a secondary ion 

Mass Spec it's called the nanosims made by Kamika   um and uh we put uh basically on  something that looked like this   uh this would be the disc where you have several  samples on that disk and so he had two versions   of this material this metallic material that had  supposedly come from an A an explosion of a craft   uh and they had two different samples that had  two different chains of evidence they both looked   identical as far as I could tell um and then we 

did the uh the secondary iron Mass Spec of it we   but they were done in the same instrument you put  them into this vacuum chamber somebody shoots a   beam of you shoot a beam of ions at them those are  the primary ions they basically like a sandblaster   lift off secondary ions and then they go into uh  something which measures the weight of them so   what was the the long and short of that was that  one of the samples and it was mostly it was made   of magnesium and a few other things the Magnesium 

ratios of the Isotopes were normal right so   there's magnesium 23 24 and 25 or 24 25 26 I don't  quite remember um but and they're supposed to be   90 11 9 that's what you would find pretty much  anywhere on Earth those would be the percentages   it was like okay that's normal not I mean it  doesn't mean it didn't come from a craft it just   means it's normal something that you would find  here something you would find here the other one   was like way off I mean just so far off Baseline 

as it wasn't even like an error of measurement   and the reason one of the one of the reasons I  can I feel comfortable saying that is we we did   multiple runs on that same sample and it was all  done in the same instrument at the same time so it   wasn't like I came back the next day and somebody  had you know Mis you know turned a dial the wrong   way or anything and and so that got me thinking  I mean it doesn't prove it's extraterrestrial   but it proves that somebody engineered the 

ratios for a reason or there was an industrial   process that created that ratio so that begs I  mean and at the time that this thing was found   this was decades ago that would have been an  expensive proposition to make that so why would   you blow it up over a beach you know in Brazil so  that's the first question is why you know how how   expensive is it could you do it the second  question is why would you change the ratios   because we don't use Isotopes for frankly anything 

other than blowing stuff up or radioactive tracers   in bodies or as an anti-cancer right so we  have a very limited understanding of what's   the difference between iron 54 and iron 55. so one  of the differences is something that you alluded   to earlier the quantum states of what goes on  inside of the nucleus uh and that there are   very subtle but interesting differences that go 

down that go on down to that level that actually   humans use we actually use in nuclear magnetic  resonance when you go for an NMR they're actually   using isotopes that have a magnetic subtlety  that can be detected in a magnetic field that's   different than the other isotopes of that same  element so on that track chemists have started   to understand now that I can take I can take an  isotope of one molecule of one element and put   it in a structure of a molecule and it actually 

has a slightly different function than the other   one it's it's subtle it's like the difference  between you know red and red orange but it is   enough of a difference that it actually becomes  valuable even in say Pharmaceuticals and one   of the interesting ones is so lithium so lithium  uh is uh used in Psychiatry for bipolar disorder   amongst a few other things I know that because  my aunt actually had bipolar um and so there's   lithium four and five or five and six I'm gonna 

get in trouble for not knowing my elemental table   um and so somebody did a study once where they I  don't know why they necessarily did it were they   used one of the lithium Isotopes versus the other  on um on uh nursing rats with pups and the normal   one nothing happened the normal lithium but when  they took lithium of one of the Isotopes versus   the other one of the Isotopes the rats ignored  the pups oh really yeah and the other one it over   weaned really the pups that's fascinating 

because that means that the human body   is sort of a sensor capable of detecting the  difference between those two isotopes and   somehow affected the brain chemistry differently  okay so there's there's another example is uh is   um in quantum computers and and creating Quantum  holes Quantum holes well you know I mean holes in   in uh in material where you can do uh entanglement  okay right and so silicon is one of them it turns   out that one of the Silicon isolates allows for 

the quantum state to be maintained longer than   another all right so there's some functionality we  just really haven't got to that we haven't gotten   to that level of understanding of why you would  do it but you but again what I'm saying is it's   inevitable yeah inevitably we will reach a level  of understanding we're doing something like this   and using the subtleties of nature uh is going to  be a positive thing I mean I often put it this way   humans currently paint the world in 85 elements 

we could be painting and maybe somebody else is   already painting the world in the 253 or so  stable isotopes yeah they've already opened   that up yeah they're in technical or we're still  black and white so we can tell essentially with   the technology we have now and that and we'll talk  a little bit more about it but you're creating new   technology that will give a better window into  into that regime and maybe we can't necessarily   say with certainly on every material that it's not 

from here but they are presenting extremely unique   um you know ratios and makeup that make it very  interesting if if nothing else yeah well let me   just let's just ask the question about the ubatuba  event okay why would you do it and uh why would   you is it is it part of some refuse uh that the  craft doesn't use is it the exhaust from The Craft   um there's another set of cases that are really  interesting and there's actually multiple cases   of this where a craft is seen and the one I 

actually published a peer-reviewed paper on   this one uh it's actually the first ever  peer-reviewed paper in a major journal uh   on so-called UFO materials and it was the uh  the so-called Council Bluffs case Circa 1976.   um craft a scene over Council Bluffs Iowa oh Iowa  yeah and uh and uh the scene is basically seen in   the distance from the city by multiple individuals  and then lights flashing and the kind of the usual   uh and then something seems to drop from the 

craft and so several cars Converge on the site   including the police uh and so on the ground is a  pool of liquid metal like 35 or so pounds it the   I have the original pictures that the that the  police took should this is all through Jacques   Valley uh and so I analyze those materials not  to prove that it was anything and not to make   a conclusion but to basically get the data out  there right to create the data now what do we   find anything interesting we didn't find any 

strange ratios but what was interesting about   that and we could prove at least extrapolate that  it wasn't you know somebody was flying over in a   helicopter and dropped you know a molten metal  because the cost to doing that would be too much   um and a lot of other reasons why but what  was interesting about the material was   depending on where you looked in the material  the elemental ratios were different it was iron   nickel a few other things in there silicon 

um okay it's it's it's not homogeneous   it's kind of like you melt uh vanilla and  chocolate ice cream you only partly swirl   it you didn't put it in the blender right so why  would that so what industrial process would create   this and I've got a similar sample from Australia  there's another one in Fresno that if the guy who   who offered it is mad at me for not coming and  picking it up it's just because I haven't had   the time with the same story he found it in his 

driveway they saw it and then they he found those   metal in his driveway liquid a liquid liquid  pool yeah well he found he found the the the   um he saw the the object and then the next day  they found this metal in in the asphalt of their   of their driveway so one of the things that I  want to be able to do is collect a number of these   events uh to see well what are the similarities  you know are the same elements there and and why   is it that they're dropping these metals again is 

it part of the exhaust is it is it something went   unstable and needed to be needed to get rid  of it I don't know I have no idea what it is   um but again creating that data and getting it out  there and then giving people this is important as   part of what you were saying before giving people  the permission to study it and and creating an   atmosphere where it's okay to talk about this  is what's going to bring It Forward I can't do   everything I'm just going to say that it's being 

brought I mean I I'm being I'm being offered   dozens of opportunities very few of which I can  follow up on nor will I follow up on until I   have a Consolidated pipeline of analysis that  will allow me to put all of them through in a   standardized way so that I could eventually  publish a paper that says well here again is   the data but here's now the comparison group of  other things that were like this and here are   you know in science we call them controls here 

are human materials analyzed in the same way I   mean it's expensive uh you know I've personally  put you know at this point now probably about a   hundred thousand dollars of my own money and time  uh to do this kind of analysis uh and at I use   Stanford equipment if Stanford's perfectly  fine with that I'm not breaking any rules   as long as I pay for it pay for the time um  because I want to get that data out there right   and I and and once you've done that then you can 

point other people so here's how you do it because   it's the peer review process that lets you talk  to another scientist and say this has been vetted   right you can't do it by Twitter you can't do  it in a press release you can't do a one-off   study because it has no correlation to any prior  knowledge so how do we how do we interface with   the academic institution and the scientists  like yourself that don't that don't have you   know this this fits on the Cracks right 

this doesn't fit seamlessly into you know   um anyone's Camp right now in the academic world  um how do we how do we open the door for them how   do we support that ecosystem well part of it is  is well it's money I mean I've said this before   um that you know scientists will follow the money  I mean they can't they these the instruments are   expensive to do the instruments exist you don't  need to buy all of the instruments to begin the   study you they you know uh you can rent access 

on them in I mean in Silicon Valley there are   multiple companies that provide these kinds of  services to the chip industry because the chip   industry wants to do exactly what I was just  talking about they want to understand what went   right and what went wrong and the things that they  make so those facilities are all available you   just rent time on them uh and so you you need that  kind of money so one of the things that I'm doing   uh is uh rather than wait for the government to 

give me the money I'm setting up uh organization   that is bringing in charitable funds and hopefully  by next year we'll have the ability to talk much   more about it but with those charitable funds  we'll be able to do at least two things will be   able to write policy papers to the government as  to why they should support this kind of research   because then what you're doing is you're giving  the people on on the inside if you've got sort of   like a a a think tank on the outside who's writing 

all of the reasons and giving them the crib notes   that they need to make the arguments to their  upper cloud and to make the arguments to the to   either the generals or the politicians um so you  you need to provide that so where do you get that   you you Source the writing from academics and if  you pay an academic ten thousand dollars to write   such a thing that they'll probably jump at it you  know especially you know I mean most academics   aren't Rich most academics don't go out and start 

companies so that's at one level but with again   sufficient resources you get to do something else  now you get to give money to postdoctoral fellows   or to Laboratories where you can say I want this  studied you know you you don't have to find that   person you just need to put out the fact that  you have the money and then you hopefully get   enough credible applications Grant applications  for it you have then a team of scientists vet   the applications you give them the money you 

let them go they publish a paper that further   opens the aperture you do this in enough places  and suddenly it's a field now it's a credible   field right you you don't start I don't think  at least now you don't start your own journal   because in your own journal can then be ridiculed  by the mainstream journals it's isolated it's   isolated you you write the papers like I wrote  this Council Bluffs paper I didn't make any   conclusions I just said here's what happened 

here's we happened and then we talked to the   editor we said would you be interested in this  as well as long as you don't go all UFO on it   yeah we'll look at it they send it out to  reviewers the viewers said this is really cool   um we'll do it so so you have to find you know  you're not going to get into science or nature on   day one right but you'll get it into the mid-level  journals that then creates a track record uh on   that is then usable by other scientists because 

then they can cite it because science is built on   a foundation of knowledge that you can basically  cite prior knowledge and how your new finding   relates to the prior thing and that's that whole  correlation map that I was talking about before   if you create a piece of data out in the middle  of nowhere it might as well be in Alpha Centauri   or in the Andromeda galaxy because it doesn't  have any relationship to the prior knowledge   it sounds pretty achievable I mean this all 

sounds like it's it's a pretty achievable   process here to get Academia looking into this  it doesn't sound like there's any major it's not   it's not hundreds of millions of dollars I mean  I'd love hundreds of millions of dollars but it's   not hundreds of million dollars it's a few it's a  few Millions to get going and then a few tens of   millions once the but then again that's that  virtuous cycle once you show credibility and   once some opportunity is realized and I mean by 

that kind of a a sort of a translational thing   like in Silicon Valley the first idea out the  gate to try to get funded is very rarely the   one that ever gets funded it's the follow-ons  on the copycats that then grow the field and so   that really is what I'm what I'm aiming for and  I've said this publicly I said I don't need to   be the one who does it I don't need to be the  hero I don't need all the glory I just want to   create a space wherein others can come in and do 

that because it's inevitable have you identified   any of those people that might be willing  to have that conversation and can you share   I mean I won't I haven't asked them  permission to talk about their stuff but   um yeah there's there's quite a few and it's more  or is this more mainstream are there new names do   we see this growing expanding or is it kind of  the same conversation with the same people with   you know no I mean the same people I mean there's 

lots of the same people but I've seen the kinds of   data and approaches that they're doing and it's  not necessarily how I would approach I'm not   saying it's wrong I don't want to be some sort  of elite you know uh University snob about it   um I'm just saying that we you you you you don't  necessarily want the older folks doing it you want   to trigger the minds of the younger folks doing  it so for instance sitting in my inbox are offers   from graduate students and post docs and all 

over the place everything went from Princeton   Harvard MIT Etc they're saying hey how can I help  because those are the minds that you want because   they're the ones who make an eventual career out  of it right I've already got a career this is my   you know the cherry on top as far as I'm concerned  approach to things so I mean it's it it's not   going to happen tomorrow but I think it's it's  basically creating the fertile ground that others   can be able to step into that's what I hope to 

do with all of this I see create a place where   you can support it in a kind of sustained  Manner and keep the conversation going no   very good so I know you've been just recently been  working with a team of very respectful scientists   uh it was announced today although this will  air in the future and it'll be about a month   old or so but would you mind talking a little  bit about Copernicus right so Copernicus is   um a space Development Corporation I don't 

by the way just to be clear I don't speak   for them I don't have permission to speak for  their corporate you know uh objectives Etc but   um I am on the scientific Advisory Board of the  company and it's something started and founded   um by Avi Loeb Frank lockian and a group of other  scientists very respectable astrophysicists and   physicists from Harvard and interestingly a good  friend of mine George Church uh extraordinarily   well-known uh uh genomics expert um and so what 

is the purpose of Copernicus it's uh actually to   upend the space exploration uh on Paradigm right  now we spend billions of dollars sending a robot   and I love the stuff that's coming from the Viking  or wherever else spend billions of dollars and oh   my God we hope it doesn't crash right you know and  a couple have the Russians seem to have no good   luck going to Mars um for instance they've had a  number of their craft crash on the way and uh so   okay what's the reverse well how about making much 

smaller objects but making them at scale making   tens of thousands of them and sending them  out around just our own solar system even   uh and uh small enough so that they can collect  data let's say beam it back to a local uh   um Transit point and then that Transit point then  has the power to beam it back to Earth now you   have hundreds thousands of eyes scattered around  the solar system now avi's interest has been the   uma uma comment on a comment asteroid or uh 

object that came through the solar system   that he had reason to believe might not have  been a natural phenomenon uh and so I think   Aviana in a similar way is propelled or was  propelled by the same thing that propelled me   he had an idea somebody told him it  was ridiculous and he said all right   I'm gonna show you and so rather that I mean  obviously we can't go out to that object he's   gonna he said well look if somebody else has been 

here you know and they've if they have been here   is they've been here probably for millions of  years or they passed through millions of years   ago we can't expect that they're contemporaneous  with us necessarily they've probably left residue   of that so that's one reason for going out and  looking in our local solar system you can't you   can't go out one at a time and just look here  and look there you want to basically try to   do everything all at once but there's a there's a 

secondary mission of this which is the search for   life right that if we're going to do this we might  be able to send out again hundreds or thousands of   these things to go explore the atmosphere of  Venus explore Europa you know drop dozens of   these things uh on the ice on Europa and then see  if you can look with a just a standard microscope   nothing super fancy but you know there's there's  yet another objective here and that is to make   things that can build themselves okay right things 

that can use local materials make more copies of   themselves and uh then or or at the very least  set up a forward camp where other things can   come in and do the next level of building I think  Professor Hansen would like to have over with you   about Von Newman probes yeah our ability to get  grab you within the the Universe um and I think   that's you know that's it I think it's bigger  than maybe I think you guys are necessarily   communicating at this point I mean this is really 

a pathway for us to explore you know potentially   the whole County over a number of years a decade  or not decades centuries yes me millions of years   but um but in the in the in the in the grand  scheme of of the universe it's like a decade it's   very quick amount of time here it's it's the start  of a start of the end of a colonization process   essentially theoretically right so you know I  was looking at the people that were on it and his   credible uh listen names on there uh there seem to 

be some people with some biological uh specialty   so could you maybe describe or talk about the  type of technology that you would utilize here   maybe it would be a slightly different than your  traditional spacecraft right well I mean the the   biological component would potentially be and  this would be more of the expertise of of George   church and again I'm not speaking for George I'm  just you know I'm imagining some of the things I   know that could be that could be done here um is 

that you know you can make or even use you need   to make the life you can George is a specialist in  synthetic life or what's called synthetic biology   um you can use current bacteria even to help you  mine asteroids right you'd have to of course set   create a local ecosystem you'd have to get the  temperatures right Etc but imagine if you could   begin to mine out the materials not by having  a machine but by providing enough water and uh   bacteria they use the local substrate to basically 

make stuff break it down to its component   parts and as feedstock to build more copies of  themselves just a big sludge almost that process   yeah I mean this goes into the whole gray goo  area and all of that I don't think we're at the   Gray Goose stage we're not at the uh uh we're not  at the nanobot stage uh or anywhere close to that   um but so I think that so it it'll be a mixture  if we can I mean look bacteria have been doing   this for literally billions of years so why don't 

we use the best miners in our solar system for   this the best miners on our solar systems are  not Gophers they're actually bacteria really   right I mean they do this stuff incredibly they do  chemical Feats that are chemists are still trying   to understand and replicate so that that's you  know really one of the reasons why a person like   George is brought on board but I mean it's sort of  an interesting I didn't bring George on it's sort   of an interesting circling back to some something 

that happened with me and and George probably   about five or six years ago he had a conference  on what he called the genetics of space okay and   and he brought in basically a lot of relatively  conventional um but forward-thinking scientists   including one of the um the astronauts who had his  brother go up at the same time we had a planetary   science in there and I'd had a conversation with  him a few months before the conference about my   UFO stuff he said Gary what's going on and I told 

him some of the stories uh about um well about the   patients the the patients who had been harmed  uh the whole Havana syndrome and the some of   the other pilots who were non-havana he said why  don't you come and talk about your analysis at my   seminar and I thought whoa whoa this is going  to be a talk at Harvard Medical School uh on a   subject area that I haven't given a talk on ever  before um I said are you sure I said I'll do it   and I did and I gave the talk and there was 

this sort of stunned Silence from the audience   and then the question started uh and they were  good questions yeah um and so I and so you know   who offered at the time then who who said Gary if  you need help on these materials George yeah so I   plant so I'm not saying that I planted a seed then  he might have already been considering but I mean   and George is a towering figure in the field uh  so you you have a person like that now sitting on   an Advisory Board of a space exploration that's at 

one level looking at translational but at the same   level we're doing the kind of basic science  to collect the data and as a side benefit if   somebody else shows up while we're doing this or  we see evidence of somebody else has been there   we're collecting the data so it sort of has  a has a has three simultaneous and plus it's   cheaper and we're not going to be building  our own our own I mean we said this in the   in the they said it in the press release we're 

not building our own launch capabilities we're   using other the other launch capabilities  that other people are generating and just   hitching pain to Hitch the right certainly  yeah I think that's how it'll go what about   um so that's two do you feel that uh the other  members of the group have that kind of same   general feeling towards the UAP topic or has  that not been approached yet it hasn't been I   mean I haven't we haven't had the the the the 

the um scientific Advisory board but you know   Frank lockian is one of the you basically  provided uh some of the funding for this   um you know I don't think anybody who knows  Avi is unaware of his interest in this area   um and I think even navi's interest or at least  explicit uh being open-minded about current uaps   as opposed to you know centuries-old things that  happen to wander through the the solar system is   expanding they're aware of this and they're aware 

of the controversy around uma uma they're all in   I mean these are like famous astrophysicists and  physicists at Harvard I'm almost I'm almost scared   to show up because it's it's not my not my area  but remarkably you know uh Stephen Wolfram is on   the board mathematical Mathematica right and  interestingly um wolfram's uh I'm pretty sure   this is right that wolfram's uh Mathematica was  used to create the language in the movie arrival   oh really yeah that was pretty cool yeah they do 

I think they generated the the structures with   um some algorithms from Mathematica I think  so I hope that's right that's very cool   so you know we talk about getting data we talk  about bringing scientists on is there like a   path to do the thing that you said we can't do now  which is to start drawing conclusions in any way   I mean you get to draw conclusions when you  have something that wasn't made here before   you know I mean that's when I'll feel comfortable 

I mean I I will go to the major journal if I have   something where I have the atomic structure  that is not anything that can be accomplished   here and it's clearly an engineered product  uh and it has a baseline of provenance to it   uh I will find a way to write a paper around  it I I I won't necessarily need to say that   it that I know who made it but I can write the  paper in a way that says humans didn't make it   right and so there's I mean I've had I have like 

over I don't know 320 papers published uh in my   career and there's a finessing to how you use  the language to write something that you can   walk right up to the line of saying something  without saying it you know and and and this is   actually one of the things that goes on a lot and  the problem I have sometimes communicating ideas   to the public you know I'll use the word suggest  or maybe or whatever and then and then the next   thing that comes out Gary said this is true yeah 

no I didn't the i i caveated the hell out of it   um so but I can talk to another scientist and  it's almost like body language I I talk to   other scientists and use that those words and  they understand what I'm saying and how far   I'm going and they understand that I'm implying  this is probably true and or that it is enough   of a belief structure that I can now do the next  experiment based on that partial understanding   so that's how a paper will be written around this 

that's what I did with the Council Bluffs paper   um and and it's it's Wordsmith to hell it really  these things are the better papers they have to   otherwise the reviewer will call you out should we  believe Pilots when they see something in the sky   I mean why not I mean uh you know that it  doesn't paint them as an experiencer they're   basically providing a story and in in that  sense I I would think of this in a clinical   sense that story is an anecdote right now and 

an anecdote in public parlance often means   not just even unverified it almost means you  know people use it as a way to dismiss something   um whereas in scientific parlance the language of  science is an anecdote a clinical anecdote is the   first let's say observation of some unusual  uh clinical syndrome or a malady so instead   of like that so what happens in science and in a  sense what's been happening with the pilots are   they're seeing something which appears to be a low 

probability event or may not even be potentially   a real event but it's it's an anecdote it's a  story about something that doesn't necessarily   have the data to support it but that would be a  basis for which to gather more data so that you   can verify right well I think the other way so  you know we talked earlier about how anecdotes   are are let's say one-off stories whereas  the scientists need something verifiable   how many anecdotes do you need until the pattern 

is obvious yeah right so what frankly hasn't been   done I've been thinking about recently is what  kind of statistical analysis could you do on the   anecdotes uh in a way that basically turned them  into a science and how many of such stories what   are the similarities to the stories what are the  commonalities what's the patterns now it isn't   as if ufologists haven't been doing this before  previously but they've been not published in the   right kinds of journals I see they haven't been 

given the credibility that is necessary and so   I think now and especially with Pilots right  and um whether it's military or commercial I   mean the the military the one that you obviously  are are in involved with or we're involved with   is it lands an error of credibility because  here we have people who are entrusted with   money reputation security weapon systems expensive  pieces of equipment um so uh so there's a there's   a level of credibility there and then as you and 

I have talked about as well with the commercial   pilots they have responsibility for the plane the  contents the individuals the lives Etc and so um   they're they're not just and I'm not dismissing  the truckers who keep our nation running it's not   a trucker uh on you know on Highway 66 uh in the  middle of the night who saw something in the sky   truckers don't have Radars they don't have Radars  they don't have all the yes that's a good point   um they don't have all the secondary verification 

systems that are coming along with the stories of   the pilots commercial or military so at what point  do you ignore the evidence and uh or stop ignoring   the evidence and say okay let's look into it  and I think you know for instance the stuff   that you're doing with aiaa is a perfect example  of that and I'm going to spell that out because   a lot of people don't know what that is but the  American Institute of Aeronautics and astronautics   so I mean the reason why I think that 

that's important is because here you have a   a professional group of people who are engineers  and and scientifically inclined I mean you might   not think of them as your everyday scientist  and yet they still have had the same kind of   training that you know frankly you could  give them a PhD for if you wanted to do so   right so uh here you have the the kinds of  training uh and expectations and and guess what   a lot of them see things and those who haven't 

seen things like I have with other scientists they   trust the people who are telling them what they've  seen uh and so and that seems to be a change right   that's a huge change yeah I agree why do you think  that happened well I mean I think because it's   becoming more open frankly the things that you've  been doing and setting it up I mean you obviously   have amazing uh abilities to to convince people  to do things without me to fly down here today   um so uh so I think that what's changing is that 

again is this it's this uh there's a permission   structure being created and that permission  structure is allowing people they might not   they don't need to say I believe in it they need  to they all they are now able to do is say okay   this is interesting and G uh somebody's raising  the point that these things are being seen and   maybe that they're a Flight Risk they don't have  to you know go in front of the of the planes to   be a Flight Risk they only need to distract the 

pilot sufficiently so that they make a mistake   and so if if you're flying and you know this as  well better than I do if you're flying and you're   seeing something and you're talking to the radar  operator down at the at the um at the airport and   they're telling you you're not seeing something  you then begin to question your own judgment   and if you're questioning your judgment are you  going to land a plane right are you going to make   the right decisions in the right period of time 

probably not so at very least that's a kind of   commercial uh Aviation risk now if we can explain  those things as non-alien non-extraterrestrial   and some sort of natural phenomena great is then  we can avert the risk and so to me uh being able   to explain something even if it ends up being not  what you want it to be let's say or it isn't the   most exotic of uh of answers uh basically lets  people get on with their lives and do things   properly now I I don't know what the pilots have 

seen but obviously they're concerned about it   um and I think the you know creating uh  as has been done now uh this group of   individuals to talk about it again the circle  widens absolutely um so one of the things that   we've been doing within the American Institute  Aeronautics astronautics and even deeper the   integration the UAP integration Outreach  committee the ioc um we're working on a   number of policy recommendations uh procedure 

recommendations reporting recommendations   um for NASA for their um I think it's newly named  the independent study team so the UAP IST I think   is what they're called now so we're looking to  provide those recommendations for them and one of   the things that you've talked about is not drawing  conclusions but actually trusting the data so are   we asking our Pilots to submit data that we don't  even trust I mean what would be done with that   data what could we do with it is anyone even 

going to be interested in looking at it oh I'm   sure people will be interested in looking at it I  mean I think there's you know there's uh there's   more than enough individuals out there uh that can  process the kinds of data that would be produced   as long as the data is produced in a verifiable  way that you know is let's say publicly available   um you know it's you're looking for Trends  you're looking for you know uh um principal   component axes for what might be involved but 

I mean look at the company Enigma right that's   been set up on the East Coast uh they're doing  at least in part this they're collecting the   data and putting it into standardized data tables  and then they're doing an analog they're doing   analyzes and some of that data they're going to  be letting out once it's vetted because you know   this is something that jock of La often spent a  lot of time and he always hammers into me is that   he says he gets a lot of data he has lots of I 

mean he has I remember sitting in his office once   and he had two monitors lined up next to each  other it was basically a big Excel spreadsheet   and he had hundreds of rows each of them an event  he had a couple of hundred Columns of things   that he was peopling the wow the the data with  different parameters from different parameters   and then vetting them and just throwing out the  stuff that doesn't have sufficient information   right because you're he calls it scrubbing the 

data uh because in in science you want to compare   like with like or if you have something that is  part of a comparator where you're like I would   say I want to compare this to this you want enough  of this and you want enough of those so that you   can basically say well this is a repeating pattern  and these are the differences that are observable   um so you know he's been doing that  and he has a a fantastic data set   um but others are now doing it as well I mean 

I mean others are setting up and they have   collected this kind of data and so I think that  that's exciting because that data will go out   into scientific Publications I would you know  one of the things I think that the aiaa can do   with this I mean there's plenty of people who  know math there is do these kinds of analyzes   publish it in an Aeronautics journal and run  with it right and then again the the the further   away you stay from a conclusion the longer 

you will keep the attention of the audience   and that's really important because you know all  it takes if you and again this is something that   Jacques taught me and I should have known this  being a scientist for as many supposedly years   as I was you know he said look Gary if if you make  a conclusion of about what you think this is and   I can prove you wrong you've you're at the very  least you're rep your your reputation is tarnished   especially if you come out with a big claim and 

he did that on the very first day that I met him   I had an idea about what it is uh and I you  know I thought I'm so smart and I said it and   he just like went and I realized okay I need  to stick around this guy he can teach me stuff   right and so that I think is the kind of positive  attitude that we need to take uh with the the data   is let's stay away from a firm conclusion uh and  even if we need to go well past the point where   we know what the conclusion should be because if 

you again if you if you start talking about the   next step and that should be had at some point  and not in this discussion today the next step   is okay well let's say let's speculate that  there is something here I mean there's a huge   set of conversations you could have about what  is the intent of what it is that's here and I   don't even get into it because you can go down  a thousand different rabbit holes and just go   if anybody wants to know what the intent is go 

look at Reddit uh there's lots of ideas there   um but so but that question is right behind the  conclusion that will be at some point made if it's   not made or let's put it this differently so again  one of my mentors uh when I was a grad student uh   lee lee herzenberg Len and Lee herzenberg They uh  made they actually created the monoclonal antibody   technology uh for humanized antibodies billions of  dollars um brought in you know and to Stanford got   extraordinary amounts and so I was talking with 

Lee the wife one day and she said I said I wanted   to do this this is Gary no that's not the way to  do this you're asking a question whose answer is   yes or no that's the Las Vegas question if the  answer is yes you're happy if the answer is no   you wasted whatever amount of time or resources  went into that sometimes you just want to flip   the answer the question around in a way and ask  the Zen question where the answer is interesting   no matter what and so luckily we're actually 

at the point of the Zen question are we alone   is this evidence of extraterrestrial activity  or something that's maybe already been here   or was here forever and before us which opens  the question of do we really own this planet   um so is it something yes that's a game  changer at many levels that you know of society   the other answer is just as interesting it might  be depressing the other answer is we are alone   at least here and nothing has has been here that's 

interesting but it still begs the question what is   it that everybody's seeing yeah right so you still  have to explain it so no matter what the answer is   here the answer is interesting so you know one of  the things that I try to teach my students in my   lab is to always ask the Zen question because when  every time you do an experiment it's another it's   another figure in the paper you never go down  a blind alley and so and and that's the other   reason why you know I mean not all questions can 

be that way but the other reason why for instance   I always got involved with instrumentation and  the creation of new instruments that I see as   inevitable because instruments are just technical  capabilities you can always make it happen it just   depends on how hard you Hammer at it but if  you ask the question you know will this drug   cure cancer and then you might make a mistake  and many pharmaceutical companies make that   mistake literally every year and they have because 

it's the only way to do it right now so um I so I   think that we're at that kind of inflection point  in our thinking about this we have the tools as   we were talking about earlier to answer some of  these questions or the building of some of the   tools that are required to be used are within our  grasp sometimes it's not even building the tools   sometimes it's just actually putting together the  pieces that already exist and are being used for   other things and so we have all of that so as 

long as we're not hurting anybody and as long   as we're not diverting resources the argument  of diversion of resources is frankly a a a white elephant I don't know what the  white charm is but it's it's a diversion   um and so we have it and if people  are willing to do it and the answers   are interesting no matter what and why  do we do it and frankly the the the the   yes answer to it is actually a Las Vegas 

outcome no you know and so I I you know   I'm interested in doing it now I interestingly  I got asked the question the other day um do I   think that disclosure or sufficient knowledge  to make a conclusion will come in my lifetime   my answer was I don't care my answer was we need  to create the foundation and the Bedrock for the   other so the answer will come even if we know that  there is something else here it clearly hasn't   shown up and landed on the White House lawn and 

it had plenty it's had plenty of opportunity to do   so and to the extent that anything of what it is  that we observe is real is them just saying well   we're here uh you know it's it's probably not  going to change just because Congress says you   know they're here they're not going to suddenly  go voila and show up at family dinner or you know   we're going to still have a lot of unanswered  questions we're going to have to stand up you   know the capability to understand this societally 

yeah uh across different spectrums and once we do   that you know I think we'll probably move a little  bit away from the technology conversation perhaps   and be able to start integrating it into what I'll  Loosely call the humanities or you know uh there's   you know how are we going to represent ourselves  how are we going to interact how are we even gonna   how is that Gonna Change how we interact with each  other and how we you know think about our place in   the universe I mean these are all questions that 

are rhetorical to me but we need to actually start   thinking about them right they've been somewhat  religious questions for some period of time but   the rubber is starting to heat to hit the road  in some sense do you feel that way well I mean   I I yes I think the rubber is hitting the road I  mean it's it's a it's a matter of you know I think   a change in Consciousness or a change in observing  what it is that's around us when you observe what   was around you did you feel any type of change in 

your or at least how you interacted with the world   you mean when I observed the things in my bedroom  or over my head I mean it was always there in the   back of my mind and maybe it was the reason why  I was interested in science fiction and I and I   when I would look at the sky I almost kind of  always knew I said well I know they're there   but I didn't explicitly set out to study it  because I was so busy on my personal path   of you know doing my science getting assistant 

professorship getting grants yeah you know why   why is that right I mean that's what everyone  does and but you I mean no kidding had a very   personal experience and even the experiences I  had it really took a while for me to actually   move forward and try to do something about it in  some sense do you think that's a normal reaction   to this or do you think that's something that is  in our culture that you know steers us away from   that well I think I mean for instance if why is 

not everybody interested in what I think is one of   the most interesting things ever and you have this  conversation with me because it doesn't put the   bread on their table it doesn't change their lives  and if it does and frankly I think that with what   would happen there was some sort of disclosure  of something people would be you know would be in   the news for a few months and then we go back to  the business of bashing each other over the heads   with whatever is closest um you know I don't think 

it's gonna it's going to create a Kumbaya moment   personally you know somebody else can say  otherwise but it will change the discussion about   well why are we spending so much money on military  hardware right if because we're all worried about   basically in the implosion of the planet  you know at least ecologically and otherwise   um you look at whatever this might be and you  realize it made it past the inflection point   it is proof that you can make it yeah past 

that inflection point and so that might change   thinking a little bit I mean I'm not going to  get even into what the religious implications   are you know probably the first thing that some  religions will say is well who is their God do   they have the same God interestingly the Catholic  church has actually already come out and say we're   perfectly fine with uh aliens and maybe they have  their own and actually the the um some of the   Vatican uh intellectuals have said well maybe they 

have their own personal Jesus isn't that a song   um you know so uh I mean yeah that's interesting  yeah right so for instance with the Vatican   there are they've already publicly said we're  perfectly fine if there are aliens it doesn't   mean that they don't have souls so you know  one of the major religions on the planet has   been you know very forward about this one of  the other major religions um in the Muslims   in the Quran the Quran explicitly talks about 

the Jinn and these uh things that are between   the angels and humans that actually live with us  and explicitly and it's interesting so for people   out there who have friends of Muslim faith ask  them about the Gin And even scientists friends   of mine uh I talk about oh yeah we all believe  in the gin oh really yeah no I mean it's it's   fascinating you know and then you know you don't  have to go far over into Buddhism and all the rest   they already explicitly believe in this kind of 

stuff and the and um many of the Indian religions   are perfectly fine with all of these things that  are are might or might not be here so you know as   but look at it from the point of view of let's  say a relatively primitive human tribe or   whatever seeing these things of course they're  going to ascribe supernatural abilities to them   um and so maybe again the things that  we have peopled our religions with   uh in the form of spirits or gods or what have you 

are really just these things showing themselves   as they appear to be now you know and that's  actually there's an interesting woman I think   you probably know are Diana pasulka and uh you  know her book American Cosmic explicitly goes   into this about how her let's say conversion into  being interested in this was her looking at the   um what she called the ecstasies of the Saints  so she was studying the ecstasies of the Saints   meaning the times in which they became enraptured 

by some citing or observation that they had where   they would be literally in almost like a trance  and as she would and she literally she had access   to the Vatican Library which not many people get  asked to go down into the into the catacombs of   the library and she said one of the things that  really interested me was that these these the   the showings of the Angels or the showings of God  always showed up as orbs of light or things like   that and she began to realize well this is today 

we see this as we see these as we call them UFOs   um and it was something of course that  Jacques valet had noted as well so that   she became aware of Jacqueline's work etc but  I think what's nice about what Diana does is   she writes about it from a uh a very academic  non-judgmental view of look here's the data   um now religions have made conclusions about  the data and have become set in their ways   and that is frankly what sets up this potential 

conflict amongst the religions because they've all   come to a conclusion they're trying to prove the  other one wrong and that's you know something we   want to avoid for the UAP topic right now right  obviously yeah right let me let's let's switch   gears a little bit I wanted to ask you um if you  had any thoughts you'd like to share about the   efforts that NASA's undertaken with their UAP  investigation I believe it is study team yeah   UAP ist so um you know I've been blowing hot and 

cold about it uh first you know excited because   they actually have a team right and they've  explicitly said that this is something they   should be interested in probably Bill Nelson has  been more open about the uh the idea but he's been   supported by uh CIA and intelligence heads from  prior years saying that look there's something   here and and this we can't ignore it um then I  was depressed uh that the amount of money that   went into it was only a hundred thousand dollars 

um but then I got excited again because somebody   said well no this is just this is not to come to  a conclusion this is just to ask whether there's   a there there I got depressed when some of the  people on the team came out even before they had   joined the the thing had been instantiated and  publicly said well it's not uaps it's not aliens   so I'm just going to go on this and there and  so I I was wondering okay well why are they   saying that what are are they psychologically 

protecting themselves against the attack that   they will get from their colleagues because they  even considered being on a committee like this so   they're basically armoring themselves against what  they know to be the attacks that are coming and   I've publicly said these people frankly unless  they recant that view of things should be just   taken off the committee I mean I I wouldn't want  a reviewer who's before they've seen my paper this   you know be a person that says well I don't even 

believe what he's what he's doing why do you think   a scientist I mean and they know better right  because they're not scientists you don't think   no no they're breaking the rules I mean they're  breaking the principle that got them their PHD   I mean that's just I'm sorry if I'm hurting  somebody's feelings but you know that's the   way it is and you know that's what has propelled  me you kind of were asking this before what got   you going it's when somebody told me I was wrong 

when I know I'm right yeah oh I know the feeling   what about dod's effort within the all domain  anomaly resolution office have you had any insight   into the efforts that they're going on I mean I  I mean frankly it's a bit of a cipher right now   I mean you know I'm I'm hopeful uh that uh Sean  uh Kirkpatrick will be uh an honest broker in   all of this uh I just don't know enough about  him and I of the people who I spoken with who   do know about him they also are a little bit 

ambivalent uh as to what his role is or going   to be and is he going to color the outcomes  in any interesting way or an uninteresting   way or a biased way I don't know we'll see um  you know one of the things that I know about   um let's say academic Administration or decisions  that are made in corporations is it's always   better to prevent the decision from being made  then try to reverse the decision so um frankly   one of the things that I think the public at 

large should be doing is is gaming the refs   you know we need to basically be out there ahead  of time saying we're watching you uh and we're   ready for what's coming it kind of circles back a  little bit to the discussion we were having about   about Barnes and the other uh the you know the  Wall Street Journal article you know I mean I on   Twitter I basically slammed the um Julian Barnes  for what he had written uh as being clearly biased   and uh and then I also I can't remember the second 

one the only person in the world that seemed to   know what's in that report uh and yeah and yet  yeah he's wrong but um and then somebody else   uh and then I was attacked by other people from  military.com saying how dare you do this I said   I'm not I this is Twitter how dare I do anything  I mean I'm just chilling is like a private it's   a private organization I know by the military a  lot of people don't realize that I know and so   um you know I I think that again I I guess I've 

gathered enough of a reputation that when I said   something like that it brought in a slew of other  people he never answered and I don't think he   ever will because if I were him I'd be embarrassed  that's what you have to do you have to shame these   people I'm sorry to say because they've been using  shame against people who had honest experiences   and telling them that it didn't happen I mean  the psychological burden on people like that is   tremendous that you know that you saw something 

and you didn't and they tell you that you didn't   um and so I mean there's a whole problem set of  problems there that need to be dealt with you know   we need support groups and to be run by not by  just your average therapist you need somebody with   psychological and Psychiatry training to run these  things and luckily those things are now being set   up uh to to help people process it you know either  they saw something anomalous or they have a mental   health problem so we shouldn't ignore them but 

these people are otherwise sane if by all measures   so we have to have a way of dealing with it and we  can't just keep telling people that they're wrong   um and so that that to me is what bothers me  about the let's say the military stance on this   is that if there's something so dangerous  there that we shouldn't know about it   then maybe you sh maybe the danger is not that  we don't know about it the danger is that you're   actually telling people that they're wrong 

what's more damaging to society telling people   that they've seen something otherwise productive  members of society and making them you know uh   unsure about it or hiding some Grand secret  so the open question is if there is a secret   is it because the people who have the secret to  using it or because there truly is a reason we   don't want anybody to know about it I mean I would  be just as fine if somebody came out and said   they're here the truth of it is so bad we just 

can't talk about it of course they're not going   to do that because then of course that'll open  lots of other things but but I mean that to me   would be like okay I kind of trust you it's a  it's a good first step it's a good first step Gary 62. 62. um you're in a same-sex marriage 

do you think that you know your experiences as   a young adult as someone part of that Community  being told that you were constantly wrong kind   of helped shape absolutely on this topic yeah  I mean uh yes is the short answer I've often   looked back and said to myself or I mean so  for instance there was a time when I was in   I was assistant professor at Stanford and I  wanted to uh bring my then boyfriend partner   to a faculty Retreat the chairman of the 

department called me in and said well you   can't do that some of the other faculty are um  are bothered by it and and shouldn't do that   and my response my honest response  to him was what century are you from   um and I just said that that's not going to  happen I immediately wrote a letter to the Deans   and one year later the man was he took early  retirement uh and it's just like I don't know   maybe it's just but I've always used that kind 

of determination when I know that I'm right and   I'm not hurting anybody and so that same energy  kind of propels me here it's like you know look   I don't know what it is but I know there's  something or it needs to be explained I mean   John Mack went through this yeah as  well you know I know it's something   don't need you to tell me what to do I don't  need you to shame me into doing something   and that's what this guy was trying to do he 

was trying to shame me I'm like I just I just   couldn't get it it was nothing wrong with you  this was 1994 Stanford I mean what's going on   um and actually they tried some of them tried to  use it against me in my tenure uh and so uh they   were threatened with a lawsuit and I won very  good well thanks for standing up for me but I   mean I think that that's you know that's the  kind of energy that other people need to use   um you know it's it's you realize that again 

I don't need to get a big psychology thing   that shame is used by Society to  control you it's a Control Function   um and it's a great way Church uses it religions  use it you should be ashamed to do this one of   the first things you hear when you're growing up  you should be ashamed through that it's useful   in certain circumstances but when it becomes a  societal control uh problem then that's when I   think people need to either get together and say 

no I'm not going to listen to this anymore and   then reverse the shame it's like you should be  ashamed of trying to do this not being a better   scientist but being a better scientist and you  should be ashamed for not following the rules   that you signed up for when you got your PhD  yeah um and so my first argument with a major   scientist was exactly that and he backed down  I don't think he agreed with me but he he real   that's what I always liked about frankly science 

versus history I'm not saying anything wrong with   history or whatever the social sciences is I  I noticed in college that the people who did   well in those areas were the ones whose opinions  were strangely in sync with the professors um   whereas if I disagreed in science with something  I'd go to the Blackboard and prove it and so   that's where I want this discussion to be I want  the discussion to be provable on the Blackboard uh   so I can go done that's it uh and so I'm not there 

yet I don't have that but I know it's within reach   awesome what about just for the regular person  that wants to be involved with this you know he   talked about how they could potentially you know  communicate with their representatives that this   is something they support but how do you see just  the regular person being part of this conversation   well first if they could be if they could be  well I you know I think there needs to be a   little bit of self-organization but at one level 

you you can't expect everything to be Grassroots   I mean Grassroots has been done through  mufon and others and they're that's great   um but they don't necessarily adhere to some  of the scientific principles and don't get me   mad at me people that move on but you know  there's there are other kinds of criteria   um so one of the things again the creation  of some sort of organization that I'm I'm   trying to do uh that then explicitly 

funds this within the academic realm   I mean basically I want to set up sleeper cells  inside of academics that you know people I mean   universities will accept money you know I mean  I'm sorry that's just you know it's it's it's   what drives you know a lot of that so if somebody  showed up with 10 million dollars uh and said I   want us or or a larger amount so I want to set  up a department of this or I want to set up a   program for this and I'll give you a hundred 

million dollars oh you bad that there'll be   any of a number of places that would step forward  do you hear that who wants to fund the first UAP   Research Center major institution yeah so um you  know and then that's what energizes people yeah   I mean the state of New Jersey surprisingly out  of the blue last summer I think it was came out   and said we have a research Fellowship that we're  going to give for UAP studies amazing and that's   where I think a lot of the the the progress will 

be made in the areas with the younger generation   um I've been with the the American Ninja  Aeronautics uh Aeronautics astronautics they had   double a um one of our uh subcommittee leads is  a professor at the University of Illinois and the   interest not only from the students but the other  faculty now that he's been engaging on this topic   um vocally he'll say um they're all signing  up you know I mean I keep seeing Illinois   email addresses coming into our recruitment uh 

catcher there so it's I think it really is just   about getting that seat in and letting  people know that it's okay to actually   to do this are you around with UAP tomorrow  night I'm doing a zoom class for somebody in   anthropology uh in the Midwest and for their  students you know I just spent an hour or   two talking through the students to all of these  ideas and they've actually they've actually been   studying the gimbal event the other events uh the 

Professor there has and now they want somebody to   come in and answer some of the questions that's  pretty cool so you know I mean uh when we set up   this organization that I want to set up I'm going  to have a conference at Stanford and I'll invite   the necessary people and to the extent that I'm  allowed Stanford's very careful with its name   um the thing will be done at Stanford it  won't necessarily Stanford never approves   a Conference held on its grounds necessarily um 

but I will do it and I will bring them to the   to a place where at least it will add a little bit  more legitimacy to the matter when can we see that   I'm we're actually we're trying to get it set up  for this summer we'll see this summer we'll see   very cool but the important part is you can bet  that that audience Hall will be full to capacity   yeah I'm going to have it in the engineering quad  uh I'm going to bring in Engineers I'm gonna it   won't be it won't be like a bunch of people that 

have you know UFO conference and That's What I   Call Insider inside the industry you know it's  one thing to take people that have a very strong   opinion on UAP and bring them into a agnostic  Community to convince them of one thing and it's   a little different to convince someone that is  inside there inside the mainstream academic area   and say hey just look at the data you know one and  then let them do that that communication yeah I   think really what you're saying there is you don't 

want to proselytize you want to come in with uh   basically a discussion and talk about things that  are sufficiently interested that interesting that   anybody could have a discussion about I mean  you almost want it to be sort of a kitchen   table kind of discussion but you know we want to  bring in for such a conference uh philosophers a   few couple of religion people but I I wanted  to personally I wanted to be more Tech heavy   um because I want people to see the opportunities 

I mean there's you're not going to have one   conference like this you can have multiple  ones but having them at a unit on a University   campus will be fantastic avilo ran such a thing at  Harvard yeah really probably the first of its kind   um so this is just the next step uh and so you  know I think it is again the giving and creating   a permission structure uh where and so I think  the idea is that you know uh just like the AIA   organization that you're setting up other outside 

organizations can be the catalyst for creating   many mores you know the Von Neumann probe approach  uh to enabling other people to to get involved   because it won't even I mean by doing that it  won't even necessarily be me as I said before that   ends up with the glory it always what you find on  in science you know the people who win the Nobel   prizes aren't all at Harvard Stanford and MIT  they're at these places where you wouldn't expect   it but they followed their nose with a level of 

determination that they're like ah and then the   rest of the community realizes and then they get  hired at Stanford and Harvard um you know but they   they they proved it elsewhere but it's it's it's  planting those seeds and doing the basic research   is what creates the discoveries that then somebody  realizes can be enabled and translated very cool switching it up a little bit here would you  consider machine learning or the direction is   going as a potential non-human intelligence I mean 

well I mean we're talking about the stuff that's   going on at Google AI and all the others it's just  where it's going as well absolutely oh yeah no I   mean I I mean the I mean just as the example that  Google AI bot uh that the engineer came out and   said was sentient I'm not sure it was sentient  but you know I would rather have a conversation   with it than probably many of the people that I  do know because I can talk about anything so and   that's just the beginning would that speak then 

to another category yes of intelligence and thus   there being a broader spectrum of intelligence  you know out there that you know because right   now we're our only data point essentially we  understand intelligence says this and then you   know perhaps to a lesser extent in other animals  but um if if we have then created something that   we would classify as an intelligence that isn't  us although it might utilize or leverage our   intelligence some manner we have to assume there's 

a wider class of intelligence out there right   would that be fair absolutely you know I mean and  even if you step away from all of these Notions   of faster than light travel and wormholes Etc um  it will not be us or our immediate uh children   or descendants that will be the first that we  send to Alpha Centauri even by conventional   means even by a light sale right or even by a ram  ram scoop right approaches to to going at least   some significant degree of the speed of light 

it'll be an advanced computer and what better   Advanced Computer to send than an AI and you'd  probably end up sending you know the chat   bot GPT thing that everybody sees in the news  today or some much more advanced version of it   um and maybe that's what we're seeing today here  that's already pre-programmed by somebody else   that when you get there uh you know you'll just  kind of observe and watch and send the data back   so I'm yes I'm convinced that you know for 

instance the Copernicus group that I'm a   part of you can bet that one of the first  things that we're going to put if we can   on and this is just my personal opinion again I  don't speak for Copernicus I got to be careful   um you know if we can we'd put a pretty  Advanced Computer on there if anything   if it ends up being some version of the of the  chat bot GPT uh better than you know an iPhone   um would you consider yourself in some sense 

maybe like a protege of Jacques or maybe round   two oh yeah I mean no I well I can't remember  the name of the person that he considers himself   a protege of uh but there was a Andre and  I forget his last name I'm sorry Jacques   um that he considers himself having been  taught by this individual I 100 consider him   a mentor I mean I've had you know four or five  mentors in my life uh and all in in academics   um this guy Ali Saleh when I was at Cornell Lennon 

Lee herzenberg uh David Baltimore Nobel Prize   winner at MIT when I worked with him and then a  few around Stanford uh but not to the level of   Jacques because they've always been smarter than  me or at least knew more than me you know and so   I think that that's that's part of what I'm hoping  to do for the people in the general Community is   you know for better or worse I'm a confident  person people have always said Gary you just   seem so confident actually I'm I'm trembling 

inside most of the time but I think having   that confidence lets you do things and it  opens doors that you didn't know were there   so if you are telling a good proportion of your  population that the stuff you're experiencing is   wrong you're making them insecure and so they're  not going to go forward right they won't open   doors or try to even batter down The Doors so um  you know but I think having confidence is twofold   of means also you have to be confident enough in 

your in your intellect to know what you don't know   and to appreciate somebody else who knows more  I mean there's a there's a woman genomicist I   won't name her name but she's very very famous  uh and people say oh yeah you're in the no she's   so much smarter than me I love being around  her and but we still bounce ideas off each   other and so I think being secure about who  and what you are and I'm secure that I'm gay   um it's like okay now I can do stuff I mean I 

still go back to that earlier point I remember   the point in time when I realized I was I sat on  the edge of my bed and said oh okay that was it   there was no like ah you know and so maybe it just  takes that whatever combination of characteristics   that I got from my parents and Circumstance Etc  um you know not everybody can replicate that   but I can help or we I think not just I we can  help create a level of security and as we said a   permission structure for people so that they they 

can be sure of themselves and then go forward with   asking their own questions I mean to me that's so  important I I one of the things I always realized   about the work that I do with teaching my graduate  students I don't teach classes teach graduate   students how to think is I hate wasted opportunity  and that really bothers me when that happens and   so I look at this whole UAP thing as potentially  a wasted opportunity and so it just it just drives   me nuts that we're not doing something about it 

but well frankly we are and so the best thing you   knew when you see something that upsets you is  you go out and do something about it and I for   better or worse I have the ability to do so and so  I'm going to do it me too uh someone has to do it   um this is what I wanted to do I say like just  we can look at a character like it's okay to be   interested in UFOs or UAP you have our permissions  you know what I mean like it's just honestly like   maybe we can just do that to end or something you 

know what I mean um because it is it is silly you   know just be like hey it's okay I'm interested in  UAP not a big deal people believe in all kinds of   things and so why not I mean they could be doing  something you know uh illicit with their lives uh   and so why not why not this you know even if it's  just a hobby yeah right I mean uh you know hobbies   are things that you do that you enjoy and if you  enjoy asking the question are there non-human   intelligences here then that's interesting 

I mean frankly even without talking about   ETS and all the other thing there are non-human  intelligences I mean have you ever watched some   of the you know some of the animal uh interactions  and the things that they do I mean I look at my   dogs and I see a Consciousness in front of  me they're not at our level but you see some   other things where animals solve problems that are  almost miraculous and you know that they're on the   edge yeah of ability there's just this recent um 

uh archaeologic find uh homo nobelius or I can't   remember I can't remember but it was recent in  South Africa of something that lived something   like 200 000 years before us and there's evidence  not yet conclusive but the evidence is that it was   using fire oh wow so another Jesus of another  genus of humans 200 000 years I mean we've only   been around for about maybe 50 50 000. so somebody 

else was here maybe maybe and you know uh I mean   that tells you something that tells you that tells  you actually something quite interesting that   intelligence can arise multiple times right it  tells you that the opportunity now why they might   have died out an open question maybe because  we came along and killed them off who knows   um when you know that something can happen you  know the there's a thing called Bayesian inference   you probably know that the the idea of Prior 

if it can happen once that means it can happen   and so therefore it can happen again and you  know you I think we haven't really integrated   that into our understanding of our Pro our  the chances of us being here you know right   and for me essentially and all that right yeah  definitely integrated that I mean I remember   um when I was probably I was young it was the  first house that we lived in um and there was   a Scientific American and for whatever reason I 

opened the page and it was about about the local   universe and it was a they had a picture of the  of the cosmos as we understood them at the moment   um and I think it was just basically a an  edge on view of the of the Milky Way galaxy   and I think I was I don't know how eight  or nine um I remember looking at it and   thinking what kinds of I don't know why  I thought this but what kinds of Empires   and stories have happened across time across all 

of that space I mean so I was already imagining   things that might live out there um and so  if even that sense of wonder and possibility   of the how small we are relative to all of that  can be imbued into students or others out there   that sense of wonder will drive them to help  answer the question that we're trying to answer   here today is what kind of data do you need to  collect to prove or disprove the hypothesis so   long as they look at the data they'll always 

look at the data speaking of looking at data   uh I've been speaking with some Pilots recently  who have commercial pilots in you know what you   would expect to fly across the country in  that have been seeing objects just recently   just you know as we speak over the past eight to  12 months over the continental United States and   and western coast have you been tracking that  and what are your thoughts I mean I've seen the   stories of they see these lights circling and 

I've seen some of the video uh that the pilots   have taken on their uh basically cell phone  cameras uh and I mean the long and the short   of it is they don't know what they are and these  are people who basically fly every day for their   whole lot you know for their professional lives  and they see something that shouldn't be there so   I ask a different I'll actually make a different  point Maybe they always have been there but the   pilots just didn't notice them because they didn't 

have let's say the the environment to say I should   be paying attention to that right or as we all  know maybe they just suppressed it right there's   this there's this notion of uh intelligence is  sometimes not about putting one and one together   intelligence is just realizing that there is a  one right that you that you see something that   other people don't see anyway that that is those  are the innovators those are the people who see   something that's there and so maybe there's just a 

certain kind of brain circuitry that uh by itself   recognizes the anomalous as being something you  should be paying attention to you know I always   use the example not that you couldn't physically  see it it's just your internal brains filters   saying that's noise that's noise yeah yeah I mean  you know um there's a book about you know reality   in their reality that our brains are frankly  not designed to see reality our brains are   only there to filter enough information to keep us 

surviving and pass our genes on so everything that   is extraneous to that essential need just doesn't  get into our brains I've heard you use the term   like biosphere or dark biosphere is that kind of  the same Theory where there's there's potential   things happening that includes life in some sense  that could be happening around us we're just not   tuned into we're just not tuned into it or you  know I mean I hate to use the term frequency   because it has so many negative unfortunately 

connotations um uh it's uh you know it's   it's data off the curve I mean just to  go straight to the to the science of it   um so in my lab meetings the students will show  their data and then they'll they'll be like a   curve and everything fits the curve oh isn't that  beautiful it's great and there's like a data point   off the Curve and I said what happened to that  one and they'll go a few and then back in my mind   it's it's thinking what did that mean I said go 

back a few slides I think my students are tired   of me when I because they know that when I say go  back a few slides it's the beginning of trouble oh   boy yeah um but good trouble because it's always  the anomaly that is anomalies by definition are   Discovery and so here we have anomalies that you  know enough people are crying fire that we should   maybe be paying attention to it because if we're  going to just stay on the curve for the rest of   time then we and the anomalies just built up but 

this is this is what's called the cunan revolution   right the structure of scientific revolutions  Thomas Kuhn uh wrote this back in I think the   50s or so um where science doesn't proceed in this  incremental set of understandings science proceeds   until it reaches and until it reaches a wall and  a wall of anomalies begin to build up because the   current understanding doesn't accept that the  anomaly exists uh and then there's somebody on   this side screaming but it exists it exists and 

then the evidence been begins to build up and then   you have a revolution but the the almost annoying  aspect of it is that everybody who was screaming   it doesn't exist on the other side tells you oh  of course it did we always understood this yeah   right I mean that's fine but I think that that's  where we're at that moment now uh again where   people are beginning to realize okay there's  there's something but again it's it's I want   to create a science and language structure for 

people where they can talk about the anomaly in   a way that doesn't create ridicule and so  you know maybe this organization that I'm   setting up will will be will be able to do  it the things that you're doing things that   we know other people are doing there's like  a there's basically a a cottage industry of   groups being created by many uh and one or more  of them is going to be extremely successful   which is exciting it's okay to be interested 

in UFOs yeah very cool Gary thanks for joining   me today so much it was a fun discussion it  was awesome more to come cheers yeah [Music] foreign [Music]