Donald Hoffman - Quantum Physics of Consciousness

Transcript

Don it's a reflection of the importance of Consciousness but maybe the desperation of certain scientists that several are going to the level of quantum physics to try to explain Consciousness why do they do that well on the one hand it is our deepest science and it's our most worked out and so we have Good Foundations there but we've not been able to figure out how to connect Consciousness to neural activity at the higher levels at synaptic levels ions Crossing membranes we haven't been able to do it no circuitry neural circuitry that's all right systems of neurons firing um so we haven't been able to do it successfully there and so then the idea is well maybe something at the quantum level which is very very basic physics uh you know there are aspects of quantum mechanics where the Observer seems to be playing a role vigner and Von Neumann brought Consciousness in themselves when they were talking about about Quantum Theory and they were not they were smart guys so several researchers and that I include Venus cafatos and Henry Stapp and Roger Penrose and Stuart hammeroff these researchers are starting to look at quantum mechanical levels of brain activity and for example hammeroff and Penrose are looking at Quantum coherence in microtubules and um you know collapse of of the quantum wave function uh According to some you know Advanced Physical principles that Roger Penrose has worked out and these are very interesting directions to go but no one has yet expelled the magic and they they have Quantum properties collapse of quantum coherence but I think people who aren't they're in their camps still have the question what in the class of quantum coherence and microtubules gives rise to consciousness maybe Quantum states are Global and there's something about Consciousness that's global but can we make a more definite connection between between them and in particular why should this collapse in this microtubule be the experience of the smell of a rose why couldn't it be the taste of garlic there there's no attempt in any of these theories to be to have the kind of precision that we really want from a scientific theory of Consciousness we want a mathematically precise theory that says these if we're going to do it from quantum mechanics or physical properties of the brain that says these Quantum Properties or these physical properties of the brain must produce these kinds of qualia these kinds of conscious experiences this coherence has to be or or this collapse has to be the taste of a strawberry it could not be the sound of a trumpet for these mathematically precise reasons it's the same issue when you have a neuron and a synapse of a neuron at a much higher order of magnitude in size it's the same issue it's absolutely we've gone down even to what you might call the Planck scale which is like 10 to the minus 35 meters really really small where physicists think it doesn't get any smaller space time itself breaks up into little you know there's no longer smooth it breaks up but it's the same problem at that scale is that you know the scale of neurons you know whole neurons or systems of neurons and that is how to bridge the gap from the physical properties of the system to the quality in a principled way I mean let's not fool ourselves we want we're scientists we want a precise theory that makes precise predictions it says this physical property must be this quality and we'll tell you why it has to be the taste of chocolate it has to be the taste of chocolate for these reasons and if you make these small changes in the physics then it will be you know the taste of a strawberry and it's for these precise reasons people in the field who hear me saying this would go we're nowhere near that there's there's nothing like that in our field and because we we have no clue yet how to go remotely from physical stuff even at the quantum level to the true properties of of you know Consciousness qualium so it's it's um again we're in a position where there really are no genuine scientific theories which is not to say we shouldn't try I mean it's happy hunting in the quantum world let's look and see if we can find somebody else but let's not fool ourselves we don't yet have a theory do you think it's even conceivably possible that activity on the quantum level which is so many orders of magnitude below what's happening in the synapse between neurons where most people think the learning and memory and cognition takes place you think that's even in principle logical that we could Bridge a gap all the way from this from the two yeah um well I don't think I think most scientists think that there is going to be a consistent story that ties physics at all levels together from the plank level all the way up but the same is true in this table right because the same physics at the plank level is in the quantum collapse that's what causes that every matter in the world right the question is there's something unique in the Consciousness part when it happens in the brain microtubules within neurons that uniquely causes Consciousness that's the challenge that's Fair Point and and there the challenge is we don't even know at what level to to try to answer this question I mean plank scale is 10 to the minus 35 meters that's really really small neurons are are enormous compared and everything in between is fair game so that shows how you know we're shooting in the dark in some sense is it spiking rates of neurons is that what causes Consciousness or the systems of spiking you know come complex Integrated Systems of spiking neurons is that the level or we're guessing all the way down to 10 to the minus 35 meters and activity down there what that really says is we're throwing it dart at the board right now we don't know where to but and we have to I mean you know I'm not criticizing I mean we have to we don't have an answer so everybody's got to start searching wherever we can but it shows what we can't do is claim that we've got a theory and and you've done the reverse though right you've looked at uh not just the quantum physics of Consciousness but just saying that's not working but can I go the other way that's right so you can try to get Consciousness out of quantum physics and I'm taking the opposite approach I'm saying I could be wrong but let's try it let's get a mathematically precise theory of consciousness and then let's see without any hand waves or Miracles can we get quantum mechanics coming out of it and I think we can so I've been working with mathematical physicist and mathematician and we have um you know we can get the quantum wave function of a free particle from a dynamics of what we call conscious agents so in principle it is possible well I may be very old-fashioned but as uh astonished as I was that some people are using quantum physics to explain Consciousness I am even more astonished that you are trying to derive quantum physics from a mathematically precise a structure of of Consciousness I find that fabulous in all the negative connotations of the word I I certainly understand and so the burden is on me to have a mathematically precise Theory so I do have a mathematically precise theory of conscious What I Call Conscious agents involving things called markovian kernels and so forth but the real proof of the pudding is can I actually get for example um Spinners in quantum mechanics can I get uh penrose's spin nets come out can I make new physical predictions that current physical Theory cannot make right now the connection between Consciousness and physics that I'm looking at it appears that the long-term properties of my Dynamics what was called the asymptotics is what physics is dealing with in which case physics as we know it would be the special case of the conscious Dynamics as what you might call the time parameter goes to Infinity in the same way that classical physics comes out as the limit of Relativity as the speed of light goes to infinity or as you know in the case of quantum mechanics as as Planck's constant goes to zero you get classical mechanics coming out so my idea would then to would be in a similar fashion to get quantum theory Quantum threadarian relativity coming out as a special case of the conscious Dynamics as a limiting case as my time parameter my quote it's not really time but it's the dynamical parameter of my system goes to Infinity the asymptotics of my Dynamics ends up being the physics that's that's the goal so but the nice thing is it's not oh it's not a hand wave it's a precise attempt