UFO & Paranormal Connections + The AAWSAP Legacy : WEAPONIZED : EPISODE #12

Transcript

Secrets cover-ups and strange phenomena UFOs and ideas that challenge reality itself all these Mysteries all this time are we ever going to get to the bottom of these my name is George Knapp I dig into news stories that others can't or won't I'm Jeremy Corbell and for some reason people tell me things they probably shouldn't and this is weapons [Music] this is round two Dr Colin Kellerman this is weaponized we have a special guest a long time friend of ours Dr Colin Kelleher an eminent scientist and investigator and we got a lot of ground to cover one of the reasons why I'm stoked you're talking with us like openly here like this man I've heard you guys talk I know what's going on to a high degree is that you ran like you ran the largest acknowledged UFO program in the history of our military that's acknowledged and and that was called OSAP hired through the DIA contract but you were the principal who ran the day-to-day the investigations is that correct you overshaw it all well the allsop was the acronym for the advanced Aerospace Weapons Systems application program which was a 20 24 that morphed into 27-month program run through Dia funded uh with 22 million dollars uh Robert Bigelow formed an organization called bass to execute the OSAP contract I was the program manager for the OSAP contract in Las Vegas I had a counterpart on the East Coast a guy called Dr James lacatski who was a ballistic or is a ballistic missile physicist and engineer so he was running thing things from the east coast and I was the coordinator project manager uh in Las Vegas we hired about 50 different people within a space of uh seven months of activating the allsop contract which was activated in September of 2008 so you know that the idea was we were hustling to get to start hire people with security clearances if possible we hired PhD and master's degree engine of scientists we hired Engineers we hired database analysts counterintelligence people security officers translators to translate documents So within seven months of starting this program it started in uh in September of 2008 uh within seven months we had a team of 50 full-time people these people were not doing this part-time on their spare time these were were tasks 40 hours a week plus uh to execute the OSAP program the OSAP program it's only remit was to investigate uh UFO activity and specifically to assess whether or not uh there was a threat associated with the UFO right so I want to take I want you you to take us there because this is how I understand I want to see how you go from you know nids at that point National Institute for Discovery Science and you're working on all this to like an official Dia request to study UFOs building out this whole thing I understand that Dr lakotsky was from the DIA and he's your counterpart there and then you're running the show here with the under the contract you're the head guy and and now we you can talk about all of this which is interesting so so George can you set us up to where he goes from well there's a big chunk of the story we're missing so we went from nid's 96 and Bigelow buying Skinwalker Ranch to the creation of OSAP in between there was this long study by the nid's team at the ranch they set up shop there they they had a command center they put cameras all over the ranch and it was primarily interested in the high level of UFO activity that had been reported there but a lot of other stuff too animal mutilations that have been happening and and as you were later to learn a lot of other weird things that wasn't why you were there but that's what you learned about it right right yeah I think that's a that's a pretty good summary and as you also mentioned um you and I wrote a book at the very end of that whole procedure that came out in 2004 2005. um and the purpose for for writing that book was to see what other ranches were around the country and around the world what are the UFO all hot spots might exist and we actually have had a lot of feedback that book came out what 2005 which is what I don't know 17 going on 18 years we're showing our age here but but you know the really interesting thing was that when this book came out it attracted the attention of people on the East Coast um we we know that Jim lakatsky who was a ballistic missile physicist working for the defense intelligence agency and the other guy we call in the book Axelrod who was also at the time seconded to defense intelligence agency both of those guys read hunt for the skinwalker back in 2007 lakatski um which was a stroke of Genius on his part and obviously he had permission from the defense intelligence agency he writes a letter to Robert Bigelow saying you know that as an official defense intelligence agency uh matter um he would like to visit the Skinwalker Ranch and so in July of 2007 uh Robert Bigelow immediately agreed after checking out that this was a real deal this was not some guy sort of uh masquerading as a defense intelligence agency guy he was real and so lakotsky and Bigelow arrived on the ranch in in July of 2007 and they were talking with the ranch manager and his wife in their small little what we call Homestead one on the house on the ranch which is a small Homestead that is very close to the entrance of the ranch uh Bigelow was talking to the the two uh the two Ranch people um and lakowski is standing in the kitchen behind Bigelow and the ranch manager and his wife this um metallic looking uh Twisted object suddenly appears in the kitchen right in front of lakaski and it's shrouded in this yellowish mist and you know it's a sort of curved cylindrical metallic looking object but it appears out of nowhere in thin air in the kitchen and the katsuki is sort of a physicist an engineer and he's looking at this Apparition wondering what the hell is going on he looks away looks back still there so it's not sort of a trick of his eyes or whatever and then it starts dissolving it basically vanished in front of his eyes but he didn't say anything I mean he was absolutely in shock because this was for his eyes only neither Robert Bigelow or the two Ranch managers had seen this because it was right behind them and lakaski didn't say anything he was silent on the way back to the uh you know to the airport and then he went back to the east coast and but that single event changed I mean it was a game changer for lakaski and out of that event um he eventually connected with Robert Bigelow and between Robert Bigelow and lakowski and Senator Reid which you know George can talk about um you know they they essentially got this incredibly Innovative program to study UFOs funded through the defense Intelligence Agency of an official program that began in September of 2008 but you know the Genesis of this this would not have happened if lakaski and Axelrod because I Axelrod was very much a part of sort of setting up the operations for the original uh the original program if they had not read that book I'm pretty damn sure that this program would never exist yeah you guys are saying Axelrod eventually people are going to understand that that's a person so you're quoting a name that's in your book because you have promised to keep people's identities if those people decide to come forward about their identities that's on them well it'll it'll happen yeah we're we're skipping part of the story of course a big gigantic chunk is what happens between 1996 and when the book gets published and that is there are hundreds of incidents you know I've seen uh the experts the uh social media experts and debunkers who now say nothing ever happened on that property until Bigelow arrived it's all made up the Rancher the Gorman family uh they weren't contacted at the book They're not supporting it and the neighbors don't support it it was all made up by Bigelow so that he can get his buddy Harry Reid to give him money and there's really nothing that happened in there now well you know that's not true there were hundreds of incidents these guys basically lived on the property and it wasn't just them seeing it was the whole you went to Basin was seeing this stuff so is that like so that the the online trolls and the people that don't actually know anybody directly involved and they're just kind of commenting and so the the idea would be that like all these scientists and people in government everybody would make this all up in perfect coordination and that they're all drinking the same Kool-Aid that's the kind of theory that people come up with and so the cops are making it up police officers the Mormon Church officials uh junior Hicks who had a catalog of several hundred cases that he'd investigated from the 50s 60s and 70s UFO incidents and other weird stuff uh the the Ute tribe who lived there all the neighbors the ranchers hundreds and hundreds of people who've seen these weird things not just UFOs uh and of different shapes and sizes but also creatures and there had been cattle mutilations all this stuff has been going on it's still going on although it is it is a challenge from the beginning it's a challenge because it's always changing it's never quite the same no no two incidents happen exactly alike all the same they it seems to know what people are going to do before they do it it will give you a glimpse of something and then but doesn't make it easy to document it so these I'm hearing these stories from my nid's friends my colleagues I'd get bits and pieces that they would throw me a breadcrumb now and then and it's driving me crazy from 96 on and I was I started bugging them hey when do I get to go you know I guess there had been enough of a downturn in the level of activity that they figured well what the heck maybe we can have this guy come there and and I either I would stimulate some activity myself or I could help them publicize the idea that maybe they need to find other ranches other hot spots oh they were using you as baits well that is true that first visit I I think the first time I went there was column he did use me as bait stuck me on a chair and let me there left me there let me ask you a question so I mean this is something I think lost on on people because it just hadn't been said properly I mean I know it to be true and you guys know it to be true the the Dia's interest in in Skinwalker Ranch and yeah as you said you have the problem the program was about UFOs with allsup Advanced Aerospace weapon system applications program right the idea was to see what phenomenon is causing this it they knew it's not a lot of people making stuff up I mean they can't say that Dr saw what he saw only he saw that they're not reproducible all that stuff but the point of the program was to look if there is foreign adversaries with the technology the U.S doesn't have implementing those on American soil that was a big part of why the DIA was involved absolutely the phenomenon what's going on these events are happening we have evidence there's evidence there's proof this is happening with some things but the point was Protect America look for disruptive Technologies of known foreign Nations and if we can't and then we that had to be excluded although there was some meddling for other nations right it had to be excluded and that's what's interesting the point was to look for disruptive Technologies from known adversarial foreign Nations is that correct yes I mean the the the primary remit of this program was threat analysis and so like the Genesis of what really intrigued lakatsuki when he read red hunt for the skinwalker was that you know objects of a known origin were flying with impunity around Skinwalker Ranch around the Uinta Basin and nobody seems to give a damn so so his his idea was are we talking about foreign adversaries because that's a very big element of the defense intelligence agency or are we talking about some something else but we should be damn well investigating it because um otherwise everybody's text somebody's yeah I mean is it coming from Hill Air Force Base in Utah are they testing out new toys um unlikely because lacaski and and defense intelligence agency would be able to eliminate that as a possibility pretty easily but the fact is that there were Legions over the Decades of unusual aircraft that were looking solid and metallic to a lot of witnesses the that were flying with impunity there were no fighter jets being launched from nearby Air Force bases to intercept them and somehow this was happening in the middle of the United States you guys in your government program you might have had ways to pick up certain types of data that might not be public but as far as like why don't we have a great picture of something this is the thing everybody asked me it's a great question what do you guys both of you why don't we have like the great money shot not that they don't exist not that things haven't passed by our eyes but the Technologies from governments but why don't we why don't at the ranch why don't we have that you've seen people the kind of juvenile criticism that pops up that people say this can't be real therefore it isn't you guys are making it up um I've seen people the same people who complained nothing in the ASAP documents that we've seen so far says this is a UFO program and then the same people will complain it's only supposed to be a UFO program why is it studying werewolves and and uh you know and cattle mutilations and things of that sort people can't make up their mind what the reason is for them to not like it but the fact is stuff have been going on there strange phenomena UFOs or different shapes and sizes for decades maybe longer that it had been seen throughout the Uinta Basin strange phenomena strange Cryptid creatures animals that probably shouldn't uh shouldn't exist and that whatever was there was an intelligence that it was elusive that it would always stay one step ahead that it was probably smarter than us the idea that there's an intelligence something higher up on the food chain people have a hard time accepting that and they can't accept that something could be smarter than us and then it would show us glimpses for whatever reason but not enough to definitively prove anything yeah I I think that's a very good summary of of of what is actually happening out there um we have uh transient phenomena that are happening all the time uh of what was happening all the time on skin marker wrench um I you know I think we're now at probably at least 50 separate people uh Witnesses who have personal experienced stuff on uh on the skin marker Ranch it's probably closer to a hundred I don't know what the exact number is but it began in 1994 it's continuing here we are in 2023 and it's still happening it's still being observed it's still being measured it's the longest running UFO study probably in in in history uh arguably known what known UFOs that probably known UFOs yeah um I mean there is a project in Norway that maybe uh maybe you know sort of parallel but the bottom line is that the um the attempts to measure uh this phenomenon and to capture data we're somewhat successful with nids and you know I've seen a lot of criticism that needs never gave out any information and the fact is we had a website that was replete with scientific reports we had dozens and dozens of scientific reports on various aspects of our investigations and it was for the public to see I mean the public was extremely interested in that website it came down in 2004 when nids went on ice but the fact is the criticism that needs never gave out any information is completely erroneous as with ASAP George uncovered and revealed to the world some of these what they call derds defense intelligence reference documents which was part of the initial thrust which is what is the threat 50 years from now you know put all stigma aside what are we seeing what is being reported what is this technology what what could that threat be and you had all these was it 22 of these dirt 38 of these Papers written and some of which are are public and that that's pretty valuable to be putting out uh to the public I just got a personal question um being a scientist and being thrown into these uninvestigated Realms where you have to kind of pioneer methodologies and really figure out how to do this have you had a can you name a moment where conceptually you went from kind of like I'm a scientist I'm skeptical but this sounds interesting let's look into some of this weird language you read in a you know advertisement has there been a moment that just solidified for you well you no longer have the luxury of disbelief that there is a phenomenon going on that it includes UFOs was there's one thing that you can put your finger on that says that did something to my way of looking at it well there were probably two events that happened very very quickly um right after Robert Bigelow purchased skin marker wrench in um in 1996 it was around August of 1996. um I and Eric Davis and to some extent other people were deployed up on the property for you know five day tours ten day tours you know whatever but you know in in 1996 I remember standing outside the the homestead one um near this newly built command and control center that we had just installed on the property um I was standing there with um I believe it was Eric Davis when coming from over Skinwalker Ridge which is the uh which is the cliff that that borders the northern edge of Skinwalker Ranch right over the the cliff comes this very brightly lit low-flying object that was completely silent and it came from you know came from the north flew right over myself and Eric Davis and did a perfect herpin turn right above us silent and it was it was low enough that we you know it's very difficult to estimate altitude at night but this was a fast moving it was moving probably as fast as you see a lot of f-18s flying around Nellis Air Force Base in Las Vegas it was flying at least as fast as that but what really caught my eye was this incredibly sharp 180 degree turn and then just kind of went back and followed his Exact Track disappeared North over Skinwalker Ridge and it was low enough that we should have heard something I mean we could see it very very brightly lit and there was a spooky silence associated with it and I knew sort of deep in my sort of gut that this was something else I mean it was very very it was a perfectly executed herpin turn I I think the g-forces that would have been sort of imparted to a pilot on this thing and this was 1996 would have been absolutely enormous you know I mean we're talking strawberry jam around the cockpit so you see this with your own eyes yeah I mean I was standing looking at this thing as it executed this perfect turn right above my head so that that chain that that gave you a personal huh okay yeah what's going on here something different because I mean we had seen stuff that we couldn't really sort of you know get our teeth into this was really kind of in your face you know and that that happened within two months of of being deployed on the property the second major thing happened a few months later we were standing and again Eric Davis was there um we were standing out in this small posture near Homestead to what's called Homestead two on or used to be called Homestead two on skin marker Ranch and um we had two dogs with us and probably a hundred feet to my left maybe 50 yards to my left suddenly out of nowhere this basketball sized object appeared about 15 feet above the ground it was brightly lit silent and it just moved around both myself and Eric Davis were looking at it and then it maintained the dogs were very silent they were right beside us when this was happening but then it vanished I mean it just kind of disappeared so this is uh Dr Eric Davis who has worked in these government UFO programs right who's a brilliant scientist so you guys are standing there and this is the second thing that really kind of shows you in your face you're saying basketball sized at a relatively close distance yeah it was probably 15 feet off the ground and probably 50 yards towards South now this is a very small pasture bounded by trees on either side and Pitch Black Knight like I mean yeah we're talking close to midnight here we were on a night watch we were actually there to check out a report from another investigator who had seen weird lights around this Homestead too so we were there the following night to to see if we could see anything okay so where are your cameras where your video cameras that's you know what well we what Eric Davis had a pair of night vision binoculars I had a pair I had I mean this was 1996 so I had a camera with infrared um infrared film back in the old days when we used to use film um infrared film in the camera so this happened probably three to four or five seconds okay so this was not a thing where we uh we sort of set up the camera on a tripod and start filming kind of thing this was boom and then it was gone but we did have long these incredibly powerful flashlights that law enforcement used I mean there were this massive batteries I mean these 20 pound batteries that you would carry and we lit up the pasture within a second of this thing disappearing I mean we lit up everything and you know first hypothesis is that somebody was playing a trick with us or you know somebody was projecting something from somewhere but we could find no evidence whatsoever of anybody except us in this pasture and it's dangerous to go like going to Skinwalker ranchers also live in rural myself like it's dangerous but today walk on people's property I mean it is like a major thing to be sneaking around there and you got an investigate investigative team government-led on that property I know there have been some very serious security that was going on at that time during some of the time you're working too so right it's just it's wild to me that you so you get these two displays and that that does change how does it change the way that you look at what you're doing now well you you know that my personal experience encompasses now as of 1996 1997 objects that are very difficult to explain that I personally experienced so I mean do I write a scientific paper about this no um there's it's not reproducible there's not enough evidence these are transient phenomena but the in your face nature of both of these events um and the the way they happened and uh how they happened um changed my perspective because now you know I've personally seen something that I can't explain and he saw things that were way more spectacular after that those are just the first ones I mean some of the things that we reported in the book on for the skinwalker were just mind-bogglingly weird and then you know I wish the the stories that kind of got under my skin cause the the Goosebumps were the what you'd call Poltergeist now we don't know if it's Poltergeist but it's just mind games that are played on but the ranching family and I think on you guys you know things disappearing a frying pan enough in the freezer or uh the the wife uh brings home all the groceries puts it away comes back in the room and it's all back in the bags that kind of weird stuff did those kind of things happen to you and and what was going on there much much less uh though there were definitely two phases of activity on skin marker ranch when when the Gormans what we call the Gormans and we're going to stick with that name even though um you know it's out um when they moved on in 1994 all the way through 1996 when Robert Bigelow purchased the property I mean they had gone through a Litany of um Poltergeist activity and essentially mind games they were victims of of of a series of Mind Games that seemed to be escalating over time I mean when when we first encountered them on the property they were all sleeping in the front room of the house I mean they were huddled together they had um you know they were they were sort of stressed to put it mildly because they couldn't figure out what was happening uh many of their cattle had died for under mysterious circumstances either through mutilations that happened on their property or disappearance and these were very very expensive high-end cattle I mean the normal attrition rate for an 80 herd cattle had to be less than one percent to make economic sense and we were talking 20 percent attrition over a period of almost two years so um you know the the Gorman family essentially were put out of business by what was going on on the property so we met a very very stressed family that had been victimized by something that they could not understand but once we got on the property you know suddenly we were hunting this I mean the whole mindset changed on the property beginning in September of 1996 the hunter or the the haunted became you know the hunters so we were deployed on the property specifically to seek out what was on the property to try to measure it we we started incorporating sensors on the property but the whole attitude mental attitude changed dramatically overnight from this family who were being victimized in this sort of you know Relentless way to the the point where they had to sell to get off the property to suddenly we were equipped we were there we were not victimized we were hunting this thing what was on the property which is why we termed the book hunt for the skinwalker we were we were hunting this and um it was a very very different um mindset let's talk about this idea because uh the other aspect of it that gets a lot of attention now including from critics and debunkers are creatures call them Cryptids animals that don't really exist there were you guys saw those things at the Rancher saw them other people who live in that area saw these things animals that should not be there remember one of the stories we told in the book was about a a big hyena muscular hyena thing with the tail of what looked like a fox a big bushy tail right that it was attacking a horse it actually wounded the horse's calves with these scratches and then disappeared there were the Rancher who shot two creatures out of a tree one great big realm thing he shot it and it vanished he shot something else out of a tree and it was like a dinosaur it left these two really weird tracks in the snow and you guys go in and Chase it there were other animals other creatures that were seen exotic birds things that don't belong there they're not native it was as if they're from another reality it was as if they're from another time right um it was almost as if you were being shown this stuff it was so ridiculous that no one could possibly believe it these things don't exist and yet there they are yeah I mean there's there's I think Jacques Vale coined this term there's a love level of absurdity associated with the with these kinds of reports and sightings that you know you know that if you report this kind of stuff you're going to be ridiculed um but the fact is during the OSAP program we did start investigating uh activity with these uh sightings around the the ranch all of the neighbors and within a two mile radius or so we interviewed a lot of different people and we accumulated a ridiculous number of anecdotal stories of people reporting creatures everything from these kind of item the the Gargoyles that are on top of Notre Dame cathedral in Paris you know sort of these types of of creatures that were seen within a mile of the ranch we also had sort of various um iterations of two leg or four-legged creatures that were walking on two legs that are anatomically impossible for these kinds of wolves or coyotes to be able to walk on on two legs we had many many stories of of those so what we actually did towards the end of the ASAP program was that we we constructed a Google map version of the Skinwalker Ranch and we overlaid all of the eyewitness locations who had seen these and we're talking dozens of different people who had seen these uh creatures and so then we we asked part of the interview process was was we asked what direction these creatures were moving when they were seen and we mapped all of that stuff on a Google map and we looked at it and lo and behold there was a very striking pattern all of these creatures were starting off in the Southeast and they were moving in a northwesterly Direction so you could see on the Google Map a series of lines that crisscrossed the ranch but they were all moving from Southeast to Northwest there's a story that that we told in the hunt for the skinwalker and Colin and I debated about it geez do we include this one because it's pretty crazy it was uh the these the witnesses or police officers they're cops uh in Tribal Police right and they come around a corner yeah at night uh up on the the paved Road up or near the the dirt road that you take into the ranch and they see these figures standing in trench coats smoking cigarettes and they shine a light on them and they're dogs and we had to debate do we do we put this in that these two dogs are smoking cigarettes we figured well what the heck does just throw it throw it out there look I mean yeah you guys get so much for that for including what you're told by the law enforcement there and I I've also experienced like when we earned the trust and we're allowed to be the first to film with certain uh youth tribe members and law enforcement members some off camera some on camera there's a big difference of someone just telling you a tall tale and then just seeing the fear in their eyes and hearing what happened to them after that event and and the impact it had on their families they're they're telling you as serious as a heart attack I'm just taking the stance of like even I have an allergy to these stories someone tells you something fine I'm just saying that that's what happens it's too big it's too outrageous I'm glad you did put in the book you're reporting the news that's what you're supposed to do but you you actually saw in a tree I mean you had a personal experience and I know you and I know the way your mind works and I know that there's there how serious is you some of your responsibilities are you're going to tell you're going to shoot me straight but so when when Colin when you tell me what you saw you know and and then it means more to me because I'm one degree from somebody that that I know and trust and go have a beer with so I'm just saying it yeah you know what we hear uh no I've seen it a bunch of times if you don't have a photo it didn't happen well you know how it would work is if you did have a photo the photo is not real but uh you know whatever the level of evidence is it wouldn't ever be enough for people who don't want to believe it but as you said some of it seems to be ridiculous by Design so Preposterous that nobody could believe it and it it's so imaginative but um you know bottle Hollow for example we haven't talked about that on any podcasts or interviews that you and I have done but we we did include a little bit of it in your film Jeremy bottle Hollow is not Loch Ness it's not thousands of years old it's a it's a reservoir created less than 200 years ago and yet it's got stories of creatures that sound much like the creatures you'd see in lakes around the world that are much much older not only creatures but lights and things that come out of the sky you and I interviewed some some witnesses right on the on the shores of bottle Hollow what do you make of that yeah I mean that that as you say that this is not sort of thousands of years old but it's also happens to be right beside the skin marker wrench and within almost shouting distance of skin walk around so um all of the interviews that we did are consistent with this sort of um skin marker wrench is not anything exceptional it just happens to have been studied intensively since 1994 or slash 1996 but you know all of the all of the areas around Skinwalker Ranch are privy to this absurd a level of activity that includes a paranormal phenomena includes Poltergeist phenomena and also includes metallic objects that seem seem to be co-located and are appearing and disappearing at the same time now the question are is are these completely unrelated phenomena or should they not be reported alongside these creature type type activities should they not be reported alongside the metallic objects that are seen and reported or should all of this all of these phenomena be reported I mean that's kind of the central question that preoccupies people and it's certainly preoccupied us when we were initiating the OSAP program because we knew we would run into this this discrepancy between what is acceptable versus what what is not acceptable right now Guts and Bolts UFO compared right so of course you should report everything what you're talking about is you have this Dia government program to look at high-end technology Maybe by Foreign adversary should we tell them that a lot of this is associated with these absolutely bizarre things that's the discrepancy as reporters we're going to report the news like you did about the the story from the cops of the smoking dog that whole thing but you know this idea that the entire you into base and is homogeneously having these experiences and it's not just a cultural thing from from a different generation that was what's so interesting to me you bring people into that area who are like you science scientists and you bring every kind of person from every kind of culture given enough time not one day on the ranch not two days hundreds and hundreds of 24-hour surveillance days under unique circumstances bam it's not a cultural thing in that area that really dawned on me when we did a bunch of our interviews you know so so that's interesting I don't get why this one area although there's others why an area would have more of this unless it's some Advanced uh technology from a nation that wants to like try out the beta test their stuff or even our own why this area there's no answer to that right that we know of um all of the the different hot spots around the United States and around Europe and in different there's really no obvious explanation of why these hot spots um exist but they are they definitely exist uh the Uinta Basin is is the obvious example we've got another one we've spent a lot of time in Dulce in New Mexico the overlap between the sort of bizarre um you know nutsibles craft and then bizarre creatures is the same in Northern New Mexico as it was or in the Uinta Basin I think the all of the legends that came out of the San Luis Valley in Colorado for example that Chris O'Brien and others have reported on you've got sort of the black triangle phenomenon you've got various UFOs metallic objects overlaid exactly with Bigfoot and with a lot of different anomalies and uh paranormal effects so you know Jacques Vale coined this term that the hilltop effect you know that that if you go in to investigate a UFO phenomenon you the first layer of interviewing of the witnesses you get all of the uh all of the reports about The anecdotal sort of metallic craft that appeared and disappeared it did right angle turns of the sky it was it was flashing bright red and bright bright blue colors that kind of thing but you know his his whole thing was that if you keep on going back Time After Time After Time the witnesses start trusting you and when they start trusting you they start opening up tell you the rest of this and then they start talking about the weird stuff that they wouldn't dream of of telling a stranger so if got a lot of these investigations that happen and you've only got the left hand part of the the hilltop curve and it's kind of like this gaussian uh curve that is as as you go further and further uh you've got a lot of activity a lot of reports but the weirder things become uh the less reporting happens or yeah people come to us all the time very serious people that work in you know really uh you know secure jobs right security jobs that kind of thing for our nation and they'll be like just want you to know and it is a nuts and bolts story an explanation just nuts and bolts from a very serious Engineers that kind of thing just using an example after a couple weeks maybe a month it'll be like there's one other thing I I don't know if it's Associated specifically with what I told you I saw that I know for sure is right and then I'm like here it comes there's there's often times this other element to it that transcends the physical nuts and bolts aspect of UFOs maybe it's a Consciousness effect maybe it's I don't know what to name it I can't deny that that is often Associated not always at all not always right but it's a lot a lot and it's there and it's in your face sometimes it goes the heart of what OSAP was supposed to be and people who only have read a little bit about it who thinks they're experts say the ones who will say it was supposed to be a UFO program or the ones who criticize there's no language about UFOs in any of the documents and you did that on purpose and then those who will say it was killed because it looked at all this crazy weird stuff the fact is you are never going to solve this mystery without including the weird stuff you're talking about the hilltop effect right I wanted you to continue your metaphor there about why that works if you only look at the hilltops you don't look at all I mean it it it's it is like um imagine that you're starting off on uh on on a new program to map out the topography of of an unknown you know area that has never been met before and sort of you assemble a team to start doing that whole process of mapping it out and then you've got some guy from the back of the who's probably associated with usdi office of you under secretary of defense for intelligence who suddenly pipes up and say okay we're only going to look at the tops of the mountains or the hills because that's what's used because in his mind well that's it this is this is only uh the Department of Defense only remit is to look at the mountaintops we're going to ignore the sides of the mountains we're going to ignore the Canyons we're going to ignore the valleys because that's outside the remit of the Department of Defense the only thing the Department of Defense is interested in is in the mountaintops and so this program then proceeds to spend enormous amounts of time and energy analyzing the mountaintops and then suddenly uh were were put into a war situation where we have to encounter this um this topography and we have no idea of what the sides of the mountains look like we have no idea what the Canyons look like we have no idea what the values look like because all you study was the middle because the only thing we know anything about is the mountaintops so I'm using this as a metaphor for the sort of the the tendency to lock away um you know what OSAP originally was going to be studying which would be only sensor driven data and only sort of the metallic craft you're missing um you're missing the great underbelly of what actually may be important to study and so you know it's a metaphor that that could be used but it's certainly during the OSAP program we discussed many many times and long and long discussions between the defense intelligence agency and the OSAP people in Las Vegas and the intent was to leave no stone unturned that we would database everything that we came across and then we would decide to include or not include it later after a sufficient analysis had been done to decide okay these are probably separate phenomena let's eliminate these from the the database but we don't just go in and focus only on the nuts and bolts phenomena and to the exclusion of everything else because we don't know if that all of that sort of weird extra stuff is associated with the phenomena we don't have enough data to make that judgment I should point out there's a story that you shared with some other people about Kenneth Arnold so it's been 75 years since Kenneth Arnold's citing started the modern UFO era and people they remember the Flying Saucer part of it even though that's not what he described but the the nuts and bolts craft that he supposedly saw and nothing else but High strange business goes back to the beginning of the modern UFO era it's you can't just have a UFO incident by itself there's often a lot of other stuff including his case right yeah because um I remember several several years ago Kenner Kenneth Arnold's daughter Kim Arnold uh began writing a book and she started putting out um feelers she went on radio shows so Kenneth Arnold it's one of the most famous UFO cases of all time because it was said to have coined the Flying Saucer term June of 1947. however that's not how he described the craft it was just a reporter like two sauces on top what he was saying is it skipped like that so like as if you threw a saucer that's just so everybody knows the Kenneth Arnold story that's how the term Flying Saucer right saucers have been seen for a long time prior to that and that's not what he saw but go on correct so Kim so Kim Arnold described something very very different that what what her father you know had had experienced number one you know Kenneth Arnold's original description was that these brightly these objects were were reflecting the sunlight as they moved down the Cascade Mountains as they were going from north to south um what Kim Arnold put out was that after a lot of thought Kenneth Arnold decided that these objects were actually a emanating light self-luminous they were they were pulsating these um he called them bluish white light um these were not reflecting sunlight so these things were were actually pulsing light secondly uh Kim Arnold reported that um they started having these inexplicable paranormal effects in their home Kenneth Arnold after his sighting I mean she described one an orb that sort of suddenly appeared in their home and went past the two daughters Kim and her sister and then went down into the kitchen past Kenneth in in the in the in their home um also weird noises and sort of um some Poltergeist uh activity she also described that Kenneth Arnold had changed his mind about what these objects that he had Originals originally seen and she described things like he thought that they might have some sort of biological uh content and they might be alive he also associated with these objects with somehow being associated with with humans after they die in you know the afterlife so there was a a a lot of very weird act you know activity associated with the original nuts and bolts Kenneth Arnold story that nobody heard about for decades and the sort of the whole sort of Flying Saucer meme took a hold in the in the Press both in the United States and globally and suddenly we had all these nuts and bolts phenomena being described as flying saucers even though Kenneth Arnold never had any intent on reporting flying saucers but all of the Paranormal stuff was completely ignored and you know I've speculated to myself and to others that what would have happened if Kenneth Arnold had come right out and said you know these objects were Pro may have been biological they were probably self-luminous they were emanating these sort of flashes of light uh may have been biological may have been associated with the afterlife quote-unquote can you imagine what the legend of UFOs would look like now if that had been promulgated with a lot of force in the media in the in the late 1940s nobody nobody it would it would be totally different in the sense that that is so far beyond yeah what a human being is ready to hear that it's like there it would be completely different because we wouldn't have heard about it in the same way you've got this hardcore pilot he sees craft I could see him thinking oh it's glinting because that's the natural thing you think that's the right Source the Sun but after some thought it didn't quite look like that high so I can see that transformation going the public nah man that's not gonna fly that's too far for me it's what we learned at the ranch you know the Paradigm when I entered the the topic was the standard E.T craft from other planets visiting Earth checking us out that was the dominant Paradigm then it's probably the dominant Paradigm now it's the dominant uh sort of focus of the new UFO program that I'll call it UFOs anymore but they're going to study flying saucers they're going to study the sensor data lights in the sky radar returns and that's going to get them to the bottom of the mystery when in fact they're only studying the Mountaintop there's so much more right that that is intrinsically linked to this the the overall message that that how my attitude changed was from the ranch this is way more complicated many more wondrous and more interesting and mysterious than just lights in the sky flying around so so because we've gone there because we're in the uncomfortable territory for me of all of this stuff um I I do want you to talk about a term that you guys really coined um that is so interesting to me because of your background in as a scientist you know the hitchhiker effect the idea that when people have these experiences that many report that there's some sort of after effect or an effect that follows them for some time and we're not just talking lore you know talking over a campfire we're talking very serious life consequences physically and mentally to people who are heroic for our country and have had problems and and you have studied this you know people say you know they want to study different things about UFOs I'm always call them UFOs UAP cool but UFOs just looks cooler so UFOs there are trackable traceable biological implications to being in close proximity to the UAP or UFO and you guys did a lot of study that all septed extensive study on the biological negative even within the brain of human beings I don't know if it goes as far as into the genetics or DNA but there were things you could trace and track that you can talk about so The Hitchhiker effect break it down for me you guys what is that well I I guess the poster child for The Hitchhiker effect is is the guy we call Axelrod and as George has said maybe his name is going to change in the next while come out is what you mean yeah the book is actually right his name is going to come out yeah so so I remember um sort of being right beside Axelrod on the Skinwalker Ranch in July of 2009 I was standing right beside him and um you know he was talking to his wife and his wife was sort of saying that there was weird stuff happening in the house I mean this was uh right after axelrod's experience on the on the property but to cut a very long story short what what what happened was um when Axelrod and his two Compadres who were on the property they had these very intense experiences on the property they flew back home to the east coast and they went to their their homes and axelrod's family started um experiencing all these paranormal events you know their teenage Sons would wake up on these black Shadows would be standing hovering over their beds sort of in a very threatening way they would wake up to go to the bathroom and they'd see these sort of black objects that would be in the hallways that were obviously black objects they weren't sort of a trick of the light and then one night sort of uh after this whole thing started erupting axelrod's wife was just turning off the lights in the kitchen that was overlooking their backyard and out of the corner of their of her eyes she caught a movement down in the in in the backyard and she saw this ridiculous Mythic semi-mythical creature of a of a what looked like a wolf standing on its hind legs leaning against a tree in the in her backyard and she was looking and she looked away she looked back it was still there I mean it was it was like something out of Mythology that she was looking at and she I mean she just turned off the light and went to bed I mean she was freaked out to the extent that she never said anything to her family about this so so there's just tons of this right tons of this idea of a hitchhiker effect that it comes and like a virus infects your family and loved ones and it follows you after like you go to the ranch or whatever the bigger picture people encounter Close Encounters of UFOs this hitchhiker effect okay but like okay ghost stories I don't know these people I don't believe it let's just say that's that's my perspective right right I'm like ghost stories cool story don't care but you had actually physical traceable biological things that could be directly linked to these UFO or UAP he encounters can you talk about any of that the things that well no you can trace yeah just to kind of finish off the the the that primary kind of example um the two sons were were in in the uh in the room uh near the backyard on the Saturday morning following her sighting and uh one of them lucks out and they see this upright creature Wolfman wolf wolf creature running quickly well actually it was standing still looking at them in a threatening way and then it took off heading for the tree line um kicking up leaves as it went and two legs on two legs okay anatomically impossible so so the uh the whole idea that you know a dog I mean you see dogs in the circus getting up on their two legs and sort of tottering around this thing was moving fluidly at speed kicking up leaves as it went the family went out into the into the yard off afterwards and they went over to the tree line where they had seen this and there were these obvious large claw marks on the tree trunk okay so was this a sort of a trick of the mind or was kicking up the lead intelligence agency playing some sort of MK Ultra mind game on our intelligence agency folks I mean whatever it was it was leaving uh physical traces in the environment and that that's sort of a key part of this whole thing so we studied this this so-called hitchhiker effect and it was so common over time um you know we started tracking back to the original nids days and we found that in some cases you know I remember um you know my wife remarking that you know there were people in the bedroom sort of walking walking around the bedroom Robert Bigelow reported a lot of activity in his household George Knapp had been on the property and I'm not going to deny weird so you know look weird always happens rather than sitting with you guys so the bottom line is that that we we investigated a lot of these people who had had The Hitchhiker effect and we found a small number of them were coming down with autoimmune diseases Hashimoto's thyroiditis Sovereign syndrome lupus um there was Graves disease there were there were other autoimmune diseases and from a a relatively small cluster of people who had endured this hitchhiker effect um there was a an interesting Spike or cluster it was disproportionate n is very small so the the N is pretty small so I would hesitate from uh publishing a scientific paper about this but the observations were that The Hitchhiker effect in many cases was associated with a flare-up of autoimmune diseases in one or more people in that household now one one other thing about the uh about The Hitchhiker effect is that it was not confined to skin marker wrench um we had other um UFO close encounter experiencers um who had family and who had exactly the same kind of thing they went back to the east coast After experiencing very dramatic effects in say Oregon is one example that we put in the book skin markers of the Pentagon and they went back to the east coast and paranormal stuff flared up in the house so it's not only a Skinwalker Ranch specific phenomenon it's specific to certain intense close encounter effects and by the way that family The Hitchhiker family that were he was talking about the kids would see orbs floating around in the in their rooms inside the house there were tricks where the dog ends up on the roof I mean there was a lot of really strange things like the original stuff from Skywalker Ranch the same people saying and 13 years later is still going on for that family 13 years right so but it's you have so many examples of this right that I'm aware of that that you've tracked that you've kind of named it this term because it's just something you couldn't ignore you know even if my mind can't accept it you can't ignore it as as a reporter as a scientist that's happening so but there's more right there there's specific things known about the negative biological effects on the human body if they get into close proximity often cases with it with an actual UFO let me let me preface this too because we just had this new report come out a couple of weeks ago from odni in which they said we haven't found any cases where anybody was been harmed by being in proximity to UFO which suggests maybe they should get in their car drive to the DIA and look because you guys found a lot of cases yeah and and and within the database of we we call it the data warehouse because uh Jacques Valley designed this capella data warehouse to house multiple subsets of databases so there were 11 separate databases within this data warehouse that was transmitted to the defense intelligence agency in late 2010 as a specific deliverable of the Osa program but within that database there is a subset of medical injury cases that allsop slash pass investigated you know there are two examples that I can think of right off of the the book number one is a guy in Georgia whose son was outside playing um outside he was staying in the tent sort of with uh with some neighbors and um the dog started barking outside he went outside to check it out and he saw this large triangular object hovering above the house and he was um you know kind of really intrigued it was silent it was low and it was a classic black triangle sort of um a hundred it was like a hundred yards 100 yards 100 yards so a very very large object and it was it had lights on it like flat flat or like pyramid in shape triangle well it was a from his perspective it was all he could see was the underneath triangle from angle of observation we would say I mean it was it was difficult to tell that from from his angle but anyway he tried taking uh taking some uh photographs of it with his cell phone and I mean it was black against a black background so it was obviously not going to come out very well so he decided to light up the bottom of it with the flashlight that he had so he had a powerful flashlight so he went in into his house grabbed it and the thing was still there when he came out and he lit up the bottom of it with with a pretty powerful flashlight and almost instantly this blue intense blue light came from one of the apex of the triangles and blinded him to the extent that he turned around and crouched and sort of you know uh to protect himself blinded him completely but even when he was crouching he felt this Burning on his neck so he ran inside and sort of watched it from the vantage point of the house and the blue the this blue beam that had hit him was uh he he described it as I think a foot or a couple of foot in in diameter but it was a very intense light so you know he watched it and then this object took off really quickly um there were other objects associated with it he felt not good he woke up his whole neck was really badly sunburned his back was badly sunburned he had a metallic taste in his mouth had a severe headache felt nauseous he was interviewed by um by people from alsap okay so the DIA he actually got to interview this guy and get into some of his metal we took photographs of a sunburn and uh took a lot of blood samples well you were right there yeah I mean well we had to uh MD PhD Physicians who were on call basically um that were able to luckily travel to different places in the United States to investigate these kind of medical issues you got to get the report it's got to get to you you got to get there quick where you still got the summer and then follow it and then follow it over the long term and and wow and he was followed over multiple blood samples over over many many months he came down with a Litany of different uh medical issues including a phenomenon called castleman's disease which is which involves sort of these spontaneous eruptions of tumors but they were not malignant tumors but eventually you know he sort of began to recover and so he was followed over many many months over a year um but the fact is he was his health went really downhill after this event there were other cases in in our database that were even more so where you know people had came down with cancer they had uh you know after these close encounters with UFOs so the idea that you know there's no physical or pathological or medical injury cases associated with UFOs is counteracted by the database that's sitting on the shelves of the defense intelligence agency as we speak yeah unbelievable the statements we're seeing now I mean from a national security standpoint and some of the data is already there I I really hope this is handled well people hate the the threat narrative but until you know intent and capability and an opportunity right so okay I guess where where I'm at with this right now is I you know I want to know uh you know where does this go and what do you know you know we're talking about UFOs talking about all this stuff you know what do you know about UFOs what do you know about UFOs this phenomenon we'll call it the phenomena that includes UFOs what do you know and where does this go well I guess the short answer to this is is that um UFO effects on people can be profound and it can be profound in the uh at various levels ranging from The Superficial to the catastrophic and so you know you you you have people reporting life-changing experiences after close encounters with UFOs I mean we interviewed uh quite a quite a monopoly of different people like positive experiences too yeah okay yeah I mean some some people had um you know changes changes in their World Views some people had uh you know we we databased everything which was good um we we database psychological effects you know people people having sort of really bizarre dreams and this kind of thing afterwards um we had physiological effects you know the sort of metallic taste in the mouth was not uncommon uh people having sunburn was not uncommon um you know sometimes people lost hair this guy who had been is up by the triangle over his house in Georgia lost lost hair in the back back area of his of his head physiological effects pathological effects medical injuries so effects on people are not to be neglected so going forward arrows the new organization and um you know ARA will be taking up the mantle of I guess where OSAP left off she headed right now by Sean Kirkpatrick is that correct arrows that's the new UFO program yes uh and and so um obviously it's early days yet in order to sort of assess what's going on because we're only looking at the unclassified reports that are coming out but you know Sean uh fitzpat or Kirkpatrick also released or somebody released on his behalf a a an eight slide PowerPoint presentation that sort of summarizes what Arrow intent and mission statement and vision statement and what the next steps are and I was very encouraged to see that slide number seven there's a focus on effects on the Observer you know psychological effects physiological effects that's right out of the OSAP Playbook and so when I saw that as opposed to when I saw the report the report was pretty I was you know only used to say lean it was lean on details to report on a report right it's a report on a classified report it'll be interesting it will be interesting or would be interesting to to view what exact sensors were used um you know and obviously you can't report that um you know sources and methods in an unclassified framework so um but the fact is that the company accompanying PowerPoint presentation um gave me some optimism if they only look at UFO data sensor data military cases right just kind of what atip did um you know after OS app was gone they look at a very smaller subset of of cases and phenomena are they ever going to solve this well I mean play What If for us if boss app had been allowed to continue how what you guys did in that short 27 month period versus the 18 months that arrow in one form or another has been existing we don't know how many staff they have versus what you guys were able to do so describe the setup of OSAP how it worked what you accomplished what the lasting value of the data is that the world still hasn't seen versus your understanding of what this study is now because in a sense we still have silos right arrow has classified stuff they won't share it with NASA which is doing its own study they don't share it with Abby Loeb and his private scientist group everybody's looking for their own piece of this pie but nobody is getting the whole thing so your hopes your dreams your fears for Arrow versus what you did well it is interesting to note that the the cutoff point for the first odni report which happened on June 25th of 2021 was about March of 2021 so here we are in January of 2023 about 20 months after uh after that cut off point so the data Gathering has been happening for probably a minimum of two years which was about the lifetime of the OSAP program so during that program in the first seven to eight months we did hire 50 full-time uh investigators we have no idea right now uh Beyond uh Sean Kirkpatrick uh how many full-time staff that Ro has foreign we don't know I mean they may have 50. uh we don't know um but I know that all sap had hired 50 and had trained and deployed uh right through the United States in Rapid reaction teams to investigate these instances of UFO phenomena we also deployed teams to Brazil in that first 24 months looking at the um at the sort of the unclassified reports that a first one came out in June 25th of 2021 the the second one came out on what was it uh January the 12th right of 2020 three so uh the spine was about 18 months uh looking at the unclassified version uh I mean we're we're looking at an organization that's still setting itself up it's still getting its methodologies together um at that stage OSAP had um you know had compiled 11 separate databases um it had it had you know delivered pretty well everything that it had initially promised that the defense intelligence agency to deliver um whether or not Arrow have a a large classified section we don't know is is OS app the model that should be followed do you think because I mean looking at can arrow look into all the phenomena that you guys were able to look at and you know you did it in secrecy you weren't writing publishing papers to be printed in in journals or anything like that you you need some kind of uh you know I think there's a phase uh you know that the first phase um if I were starting this would be that that you do focus on the um you know nuts and bolts yeah well what what the the current level of sensors that are out there and that can be deployed that already are up and running um within the Department of Defense I I would use those um and then phase two and phase three would come down later where you start looking at the effects on people as I said Sean Kirkpatrick's slide number seven is pretty encouraging from that perspective so there is an intent there yeah they they are not excluding right your guys findings they're just not quite uh putting it in an unclassified report on a report but I haven't found it yet they could get a copy of the book though but so check it out I mean you've got the national reconnaissance office and all of the great technology that the United States has we have you know the analysis through the geospatial intelligence agency we have other agencies that can collect High Fidelity great data regarding the nuts and bolts of UFOs and if I'm not mistaken arrow is reporting to the the Director of National Intelligence right that is part of where that's going or the Secretary of Defense I'm sorry all the way to the Secretary of Defense right so if that's if that's where this is going for sure focus on the immediate possible foreign threat dealing with technology to see what we can glean I get that so I've got high hopes and that one line in there that you found that it could go further I guess kind of just to start wrapping up I I just what do you know about the phenomenon about UFOs what can you say for sure maybe it's nothing you know but what do we know about UFOs and where does this go as I said what we know is what we glean from all of the data that has been discussed and you know that the UFOs are real we well I mean tell me yes you UFOs are technologically sophisticated they have uh performance characteristics that are you know the the five observables are are sort of well documented but they also have a very profound uh effects on some people or they have superficial effects on other people but they do have effects on P people so going forward is is to combine both of those is to study UFO performance and and you know the hope is that out of UFO performance can come theoretical physics which will eventually translate into engineering does our government have downed UFOs from Unknown Origin that they've been trying and are trying to reverse engineer and exploit those Technologies understand the physics understand that technology do we have that to work with I can't talk about that but the answer is yes let me let me put let me ask it this way so there are a number of whistleblowers who are who have new protections they're lining up we've heard we know some of them and that we know generally what they're prepared to say let's say they tell this to Congress and Congress authorizes Arrow hey the stuff is over here go get it how does that change the world if we suddenly acknowledge or at least the government finds and locates and tests somewhat in the open these meta materials created by someone else they're not ours or entire craft that were built by someone else and we can't figure out how it how they fly how does that change the dynamic of this and does that does that answer actually answer the big questions who they who built them where they're from why they're here well it certainly answers um the sort of sneaking suspicion that people have had over many many many decades that the United States government is not coming out with the full truth of what has happened behind closed doors in terms of the the questions that you're asking about though um technical performance and performance characteristics are fundamental if if the analysis the level of analysis that has happened on these objects is sufficient to generate you know as I said physics and Engineering that is a major breakthrough and that would be a fundamental departure point for Humanity because Humanity would be able to answer that question are we alone or not alone in the universe we wouldn't be able to answer from that just from the raw materials or The Meta materials where they're from or what their interest is the bigger question is why are they here where are they from what's their interest in us right but at least that if you had that confirmed yes there is somebody else here here it is here's the stuff then you could go on and answer at least address the other questions well I I'm not only that but you could get um you know the Galileo project has got a lot of of different scientific talent and expertise associated with so you could start really sort of co-opting scientific organizations that's already happening actually but I think you could really accelerate that once the certainty uh was there that there was technology of Unknown Origin in existence that it had been um you know it had been really discovered and that it was unequivocal if that was that message was put out to humanity it would be a game changer is that true and the message hasn't been put out the message hasn't hasn't been put out but is that true what you said that there that there's a technology of unknown well I I like I said I can't talk about it but the answer is is yes so why why would a buddy of mine a really funny buddy of mine you know I was arguing with them like I don't get it I said I don't get it why so much contact so many UFOs for so long is there a program what are they doing you know the Tic Tac UFO wasn't performing for fravor until it noticed them it was doing a job so the question I have is why so much activity what are what is what is the UFO presence what are they doing here brings us back to where we started that word Consciousness I think it column has some theories about that right it brings it full circle to where we started our conversation yeah I mean um I guess it's it's like the old metaphor of the tree in the Forest Falls and nobody is there to hear it um is the tree really falling in the forest so the idea that UFOs are interacting with planet Earth um the sort of most likely scenario is that the reason for that is that humans are on the planet I mean there it's unlikely that they're focusing only on you know uh marsupials or trees or trees so you don't think they they'd be here if it wasn't for the human presence here that somehow that Humanity itself is the focus of the interaction between these unknowns that we call UFOs as other intelligence that are operating these that that's a working hypothesis you know it could be that there are um you know that they're not just focusing on on Humanity but the astounding number of uh sightings that hundreds of thousands if not more globally that are that are personalized interactions between individuals or groups small groups and UFOs that have life-changing uh effects in some cases and you know mentality changing in many cases leads me to think that that one of the agendas of the UFO phenomenon is to interact with with humans but not interact with the white house but interact with individuals and um there's a there's a maybe a process where individuals are you know affected in a positive way ultimately that they're changing us one person at time it I mean that's a possibility I I can't think that the alternative that the uh these hundreds of thousands or millions of sightings that have happened in the last just for the sake of arguments 77 years since 1945 um would be sort of completely random um events that are sort of passing through and just you know being in the right place at the right time I think there's more to it than that because other I mean the vast number of sightings to me um imply that interactions with humans is somehow important and somehow produces something that is you know that is viable something that they need something that interests them certainly but something they need from us or is it symbiotic I I I feel that you know um maybe um one of the agendas is human consciousness um that that an interaction with UFOs May provoke changes in human consciousness and and sort of we are back to the sort of original discussion point but you know one of the incidents that happened on the Skinwalker Ranch is kind of is emblematic of of this whole thing and that is that we had six people on the ranch um suddenly all six of them had um night vision binoculars and this light object popped up just from behind skin marker Ridge popped up it was sort of all just over the ridge and so it just happened that all six people had night vision binoculars they exactly the same make and model all six of them looked at this object and you know through night vision binoculars they it was like greatly magnified the light was magnified tremendously through this you know low vision amplification and so there was a sort of a debriefing that occurred later that evening after that that evening had passed and it turned out that all six individuals saw completely different things through the night vision binocular binoculars so I mean I'm using that as a metaphor for saying that perception human perception is altered in many cases as a result or during UFO interactions so maybe human perception as it pertains to human consciousness is um is one of the objectives where the UFO phenomenon is somehow interacting with human consciousness for a purpose I don't know what that purposes a lot of people they have UFO experiences and then just to add to how weird things are for them they start seeing dead people you know that's that's a very good point it's sort of uh you know in your day job when we're not really talking about your job now but you work on Consciousness issues all the time it goes right back to the beginning of nids nids is remembered today as a UFO organization but it wasn't there were two main parts of nids one was are we alone in the universe investigating UFOs and related phenomena and the other was does human consciousness survive physical death do we go on is there a soul something that goes on now it's going to come full circle for you and you're you're focusing more on the that side survival of death do we go on which is also form of Consciousness studies and yeah it all all they're all fits together it's interesting you know I was out of confidence there recently with uh Whitley streber and you know Whitley Whitley strieber has told many many people about this story was during this very traumatic abduction event that happened in the in the 1980s with them during the abduction event he actually saw a friend of his you know human um in the middle of this abduction event and he was thinking what is this guy this guy was actually a CIA agent um during the time that Whitley saw him and Whitley couldn't understand why in retrospect why this guy suddenly showed up in the middle of a pretty traumatic abduction phenomenon Whitley followed it up after his abduction had you know subsided uh in the weeks afterwards and he discovered that this guy had died unbeknownst to him um you know a couple of weeks before Whitley's abduction and so this guy was dead when he showed up in in the middle of Whitley's abduction so you know there's numerous different overlaps between what you know people call the afterlife people um you know part of The Hitchhiker effect with with axelrod's family is that one of his kids started seeing dead people you know I mean suddenly your perception is open and you can see dead people whereas other people can't see them so there is this kind of uh mysterious overlap between um human consciousness as it pertains to survival after death versus you know the close encounter effect of of UFOs and that's that's a phenomenon that people like Dr Jeffrey and Rice University is very interested in and there are other other people who are starting to get involved in that sort of concept that but it's fundamentally about human consciousness so yeah this is this is not Stranger Than You Think This is Stranger Than I can think I mean that's kind of where I'm at look I it's so cool to hear you guys you know kind of be able to just freely and openly talk where it doesn't feel so confined it's neat to be able to be part of that and to allow other people to um just thank you so much for for coming and talking with us and one last question so we don't know who they are where they're from maybe they are from the place where we go when we die whatever that is not not from other planets although I guess they had technology they could could be from other planets but they live here in some other kind of version of reality and they're interested in what happens to us when we go on that's a possibility I mean um this whole sort of phenomena where UFOs suddenly appear and then they can just disappear um where do they go when that happens uh we know that there's literature associated with the so-called afterlife where people can see living people from where they are but we can't see them so there's a sort of a there's an overlap between where is this place or is it a state of mind where UFOs come from Colin you've been at this a long time is it solvable does it do you solve these Mysteries do you get some answers while you're still on this side of the Mortal plane I I think the more people that start thinking about this and the more data that's available I think the better the chances are that we are capable of solving this I don't know the answer to that but I think it's certainly fun trying before we wrap it up every day I see a snooze story about atip how atip got the 22 million dollars I also at the same time and of course it drives me a little bit crazy because I mean we've we've told the story of the 22 million went to OSAP that program and although atip was real it came afterward it was a much smaller Focus the idea that OSAP was somehow discredited because it looked at the bigger picture you need to look at the bigger picture don't you yeah I I really I think the main lesson learned from walking away from allsop even though it was truncated at two years instead of the projected five years that it was originally intended for was that if you can have the the capability of studying both the UFO as a technology study UFO performance and also study effects of UFO on humans I think that is the best combination of a scientific program that will yield results and if you can do that relentlessly for five or ten years as opposed to 18 months two years you know I think that is the best chance for going forward I think it there's a possibility of getting getting real bona fide results after five ten years this is not a short-term program though you know any hope of sort of having answers after two years I think is an illusion well look man there's only one direction to move and that's forward so just thanks for having the conversation with us and man that was fun and we'll do it again thank you very much it's been really great spending time with both of you it's wonderful stupid never have so few had so much to tell but could say so little following this little weaponized presentation of Jeremy Corbell George Knapp Dark Horse entertainment and Cadence 13 Studios available now for free on the Odyssey app wherever you get your shows