Joe Rogan Experience #2288 - Jacques Vallée

Transcript

Joe Rogan podcast check it out The Joe Rogan Experience Train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night all day up sir very good to see you good to see you I really enjoyed our conversation last night we all went out to dinner and how put off blew my mind I as you know I've known him for a long time yeah when did you meet him what year uh I knew him at s I actually I was at Stanford Research Institute before him um in one of the very early internet research teams when there was no internet was called the arpanet it was the network of the advanced research project agency and it was all you know computer experiment and so on it turned into we had um engine number three on the internet at at SRI wow in California engine by the time I joined them there were like 30 machines already so uh and it was exciting and then um you know uh Dr POF and Russell tar came in with a proposal to Sri to do Paras psychology research at SRI which had never been done and it was funny because the so I was already there you know in in the team what year was this what year oh god um uh 74 WOW 7 so the AR was around4 yeah and um it was funny because I was in in my office and vice president of Sri came in uh closed the door and said uh Jack uh you know you've published some things controversial under your name on UFOs um and you haven't lost your scientific reputation which is why you're here working for us at SRI uh on on the opponet but um you know there's a proposal from Dr POF and Dr tar to do parapsychology research here and we've never done that and I said well you know it's it's a very valid I I think it's a very valid area of research we should you know we're the kind of institution that should do that he said well let me let me draw something on your whiteboard and he drew a scale a horizontal scale and on on one side there was a a little square he said this is the most we can expect in terms of funding for research in parasoy you know it's maybe at most a million a year okay and here is what I manage you know in this Division I drew a huge Cube you know said $150 million should we jeopardize the research we do for zerox and ibbm and AT&T and the Bank of America and so on just to do some research on you know uh psychic things and I said well um you know the the the reason we we get all this money from DOD and Bank of America and so on is that we do the research that they can't do themselves we do we do the you know we go out and we take risk and uh I think we should take the same risk with uh uh with halut off and Russell tar because this could be very big you know there is a lot of literature on this already and we can bring the science into it and they can bring the science into it you know and he said um well there is a meeting of the board of directors of Sri you know in two days and most of them are against it what do I tell them and I said well I can you know I can write up the the reasons why in science you have to take chances and this is science I mean this isn't just engineering and he said well give me a memo by by tomorrow at 12 so I went home and I I wrote a two-page memo which was confidential I don't don't think anybody has seen it for the for the board explaining why there was scientific evidence you know enough of it so that good research could be done and I I you know obviously that that may have helped in uh getting getting the approval for them to come in and then after the first year you know they were there because you know the the the money kept coming and the results can you know good scientific results came in came out of it so when you say par pychology specifically what were you attempting to study so most of parapsychology you know as her name indicates has been studied by psychologists you know people who have experiences and they relate their experiences and they have strange dreams they have all that and uh and then that has been structured by you know people doing experiments and for example you know trying to move objects with your mind mind uh trying to of course uh send messages psychically to other people and uh or guessing what's written in a a closed envelope and so on that kind of thing and uh but again those were done by good experimentalists but it was where is the physics of it I mean you know because in physics you know those things are not supposed to happen without an understanding of a sense that perhaps we're not quite aware of that's right and that you know our physics has been dealing with objects and with atoms and all that but it's it's clear in modern physics that there are other things and that the theories we have about the the different fields in the universe are in conflict with each other and our relativity and quantum mechanics are in conflict and reading something that was God I just I I glanced at it quickly and I was running out the door but I was going to ask Jamie to pull it up they they there's new research that shows that human beings have the ability to detect the magnetic field the same way that birds do when they fly south and and other animals they believe do when they navigate terrain they think that human beings have this ability but perhaps it's some something that we have ignored so long it's atrophied or it's not something that we use that's a question for um you know biologist or specialist of the brain although it may not be in in the brain itself it may be diffused in in the organism uh so I'm not really qualified you know well I was going to ask Jamie to pull up the article but the point being that there perhaps are senses that we're either not aware of humans like other animals May sensor Smackdown to field yeah this is it okay this is from a while ago this is from 2019 okay this is not the same article but it's probably a rehash that's what says there's another similar one here from like a month ago that's the exact same title yes that's what I saw this episode is brought to you by int turboxs we're all just trying to level up right I'm always trying to push myself whether it's training learning something new or just trying to be a better human you put in work physically mentally and over time you evolve it's 2025 doing your taxes has evolved too just like we put in the work to level up Turbo Tax has put in the work to make taxes effortless because now taxes is getting matched up with a Turbo Tax live expert who has the latest tech with that they can cross check millions of data points to make sure that your return is 100% accurate that means you get the best possible outcome this tax season for your unique tax situation all while you go about your day it's 2025 it's time to file like it now this is taxes into it Turbo Tax get an expert now at turbotax.com you know if if you look at the history of uh the islands in the Pacific like spent some time in Tahiti and I I looked at their Traditions they were navigating the Pacific fine they knew where they were going now part of that was navigating with the moon but part of it was something else and on every ship they had one you know one one man who was gifted in guiding with respect of course guiding with respect to what the ocean looked like and and to the moon and so on but also uh that's never really being explained they had an ananny ability to get to the right Islands you know on the way to their destination and to guide those ships otherwise they would have been you know they they didn't have compasses right and um there are books now coming out and certainly I found some of those books in you know in in Tahiti uh about the the the history history of that and the research that's been done into those people uh but they were they were special people they were they know they were gifted uh that's not something you know that I could do have you um heard or listen to the telepathy tapes with the telepathy tapes are you aware of this uh vaguely I not it's a podcast that's about nonverbal autistic kids that demonstrate psychic ability um provable they've got dozens of these cases on video where people in other rooms are looking at objects the child completely locked off can't see them at all will say and write down what those objects are colors numbers and sequence and very accurately and so they believe that this is something that well many of these parents have talked about it in the past but felt foolish felt like it was something that they would be ridiculed about and so they didn't want to talk about it openly but once they started Gathering up information they got more people to open up about this then they start documenting it and they start coming up with ways to make sure that there couldn't be any possible way they could be communicating with each other and uh it's just utterly fascinating because they're showing that there is something going on there's some way of transferring information back and forth including some of these teachers have figured out a way to not just receive but also trans MIT the same way these children have so people that aren't non-verbal and they aren't they aren't autistic these people are able to do it as well they've been able to create a bond with these children and communicate with them and there are companies in the Silicon Valley that are you know heavily involved in advanced um processing and advanced programming specifically recruiting uh young men and women with that kind of talent what one of I have three grandsons that I love and one of them is uh it's not clear you know whether he's actually autistic in the current definition but he certainly has some of that you know some of those indications of some sort of a gift yeah of thinking and getting information in in ways that are very different from the now it may be that in evolution the the reason you know sort of quote lower animals can do it and we cannot uh is that we've developed other ways of getting information that are more reliable in the long run or you know so it it may be just one of the dormant you know abilities that we have that most of us don't you know don't develop and we're not encouraged to grow it in school because it's you know disturbing for the rest of the class and so on if and perhaps it's something that people had before language and language and then written language and then of course media sort of eroded those abilities yes uh and you find that also in South America and in Australia you know and in Australia New Zealand in the Indigenous people yes natives but you know up up to the current population I mean right so perhaps it's something that we all had and we've lost it now when you were initially studying paraschou that you were using like how were you trying to deter determine whether or not people were capable so um you know again uh in my own I've studied Paras pychology more as a you know as a personal interest but uh Dr POF and Dr tar were doing it as with scientific controls I mean that was a point that to to look at it from a physics point of view you know not just from a parapsychology or or psychology point of view so they were designing tests that were um more tied to physical quantities and one of the people that they brought in was inos Swan who was an artist from New York he was very uncomfortable with California the sky is always blue you know it's boring and so on and he he liked New York he liked the the the animation of the city and his friends and so on but uh I knew of course of of him I had read some of things so when he came to Sri he he told me uh that you know uh remote viewing is one thing or Paras pychology but it should be applied to science and also you know it had to be applied to um intelligence in the sense of you know the the the intelligence agencies were funding SRI to do this okay uh the three-letter you know agencies there were a number of them who are very interested uh because I knew that gift existed you know in pilots and in a number of people and so they were trying to figure out a way to utilize this for military applications mostly to look at developments in the Soviet Union at that point oh so they were trying but also no lost spacecraft they found lost spacecraft in the middle of a jungle in Africa and so by psychology whose spacecraft ours um no no it was Russian oh they so they found it through like remote viewing yes really so when um so Ingo was starting to go around the labs at SRI he wanted to he was he had never been in a scientific institution it's full of computers and gadgets and measuring instruments and everything else so he wanted to know he saw that as the next domain where Paras pychology could be applied in a strict scientific rational way so he was I was one of the people that he wanted to talk to and I I I told him do you know how a computer finds data you know you have a computer a machine full of you know chips how does it deal with the real world and he said I have no idea I mean I've never looked inside a computer and I said well there's three ways you know as a programmer I can declare a a variable I can say x is always going to be 3.14 okay Pi uh but in many cases I can give you the address of the place where I've put the data but it's going to be different the address is going to be the same but the data is going to change every time so but I can give you the address it's 2314 2314 is where I'm going to put you know the age of the patient okay but it's going to be different with every patient so that's uh direct addressing uh but I can also put in that location I can put the address of somewhere else which I'm going to compute in my program and that's indirect addressing and then there's the rest of the world which is too big to put inside the machine I mean the machine has a memory maybe very big but it's still limited so it's going to go get the information from some memory device somewhere else you know maybe the World Bank and or the Library of Congress and there I cannot give you the address but I can give you um a a sort of imaginary process by which you can derive the address when you get there and bring it into the memory of your computer and then work with it and um he said you know that's it that's that's what I need and then he came up with a the the idea of coordinate remote viewing out of that conversation I had with him okay so that was my contribution to to the the actual project at the beginning and then he thought the as an address he was going to take coordinates longitude and latitude because they were we were going to look at they were going to I wasn't officially part of the uh but I was you know I had passed the qualifications to be at SRI in a Department of Defense project so I I I was one of the good guys so we uh we had many conversation with cfei and so on in the lab with uh with Ino and and later with Yuri Geller that were absolutely fascinating to me so I I Tred to in some cases they they they needed to talk to someone who knew technology and was interested in this even though I wasn't you know on the project itself but somebody who was inside you know so that they didn't the information didn't get get out into the the real world until they were ready to actually publish it because everybody wanted to kill their project I mean there were so many Skeptics saying you know this can't work they're making it up they're fooled by a press digit theator you know yurio is a magician and all those things well he is a magician but but he's so you know an extraordinary psychic so so could you explain um so they're looking for this Russian spacecraft so how do they what's the environment in which they remote view how do they set this up so um Ingo um after the project was pretty much over there there was some continuous studies and Ingo brought me back to work with him uh because he wanted to write a book uh that would be a synthesis of his methodology you know to answer your question of how do you do this and he had a very structured way of of um of doing that with a number of of what he wanted to do was train people to do that hopefully to his level okay um so it was step by step so there was a first you had a pad of paper you know and the pen and he was sitting at the end the table was about like this you know except there was nothing on it in in a a room that had nothing on the walls no windows there was a chair here and a chair there so he was away from me I couldn't see what he was reading he had a stack of targets that were places on the earth and I mean obviously the idea was to look at what was going on in you know Vlad in you know some when you say a stack of targets can you explain like is it a map is he is it just coordinates it was just coordinates so just numbers he had gotten the maps and and those were test things from you know uh geographic features on the earth cities mountains and so on so um he would read out the coordinates and I had a pad of of paper and a number two pencil so everything was very coded you know very strict and I would draw something that he called an ideogram so it could be like this you know it could be a curve it could be and then just first impression his theory which I I think you know having experienced it we did that for a year now I had a job somewhere else but I was coming two two mornings a week you know to work with him and this was classified so other people at Sr had no idea what was going on in that room that was dedicated to his work um and the um he would read out the his idea was that the we can all get that signal you know there is a signal if I give you a longitudinal attitude you potentially can describe what's there if it's a city if it's a mountain if it's some place in the country uh the reason you cannot is that the signal is overwhelming the signal is extraordinarily large much larger than we can hold it in our brains so the people who do that have a way of processing the signal and recalling it and that's the secret that's the that's the main thing to me that's come out of the SRI study among many things but so his his idea was you have to stop the signal you have to catch it and it's going to be very very fast and most people just go on with their life you know they just it's just a passing thing and but you can recall the signal so he would read out the coordinates again and now my my little scribble is going to turn into maybe a series of waves and then you know a city with skyscrapers after if we do that a number of ways now there are a lot of of errors that can come in and then we can we can think we recognize it and try to name it that's the thing you can't you shouldn't do you shouldn't try to name it because to name it put it in the other half of the brain which is logical and rational and you know so uh the idea is to label that as an error you know it's not a city by the by the bay it's something else so we go on and we keep just going on so you have to do that with a very patient guide you know to train yourself to do that and SRI you know Hal and and Ingo did that you know very well in training a cad of people who could be almost not quite but almost as good as Ino and there were a couple who were as good as good as he was one time now I I said but Ingo you know I'm not psychic he said well you know think about that because you've shown evidence of having of understanding the process you know there are some things that I did that that would be classified as psychic but I cannot do it I cannot control it right it just happens randomly yeah what kind of like what what kind of things well one time I I get there 8:30 in the morning we close the door um and he gave gives me a set of coordinates longitude latitude somewhere and I get very cold right away and I get dizzy you know I mean I I I I have to grab the table and I I'm not drawing anything and Ingo says Jack what's wrong and I said Ingo I I don't know where you're sending me but I'm cold I'm trembling I'm afraid I'm afraid of falling and uh you know I I really don't don't feel well and he said you're on top of a peak in the Andes whoa so he pulls out the he pulls out the thing it gives it gives it to me that comes from um you know a faph of of the Andes taken from an airplane with this this peak and they had computed the coordinates of of the peak and that's what he was giving me I was there you felt it physically did you see it or did you just feel it no I it was just a physiological reaction of my whole body I was tring exactly as if you were on freezing cold and I was very afraid of falling wow I was falling and uh had you had any of these that didn't work did they try any Co oh yeah yes sure I'm not you know you should not use me as a remote viewer to launch you know a tomw uh over over somewhere you know that's a problem that of course the Army has you know is it good enough so we can launch a rocket to destroy that thing you know uh who is the best at it who's the best at remot is there one person consistently accurate there are a couple and they they are not you know Ingle was known because he wrote about it and so on uh many of them Joe mon uh is uh probably the the the best one alive today uh he described um a structure and he described a ship that was being built by the Russians that which was a super submarine in a hango somewhere and the Navy just laughed at him they said that's crazy you know you uh it's in the hanger you know away from the sea so why would you build a ship you know when you don't have the ocean well it turned out he was right and it was a super class new Soviet submarine it described the inside of the building which had no windows and so on uh and yeah I mean from a satellite they could see the building but they couldn't see inside the building it is describe what was inside the building he described the submarine he described the the length and the you know he actually measured it psychically and that turned out to be right and then when the submarine was built they brought some bulldozers and they dug you know a channel to the Sea and off it went this episode is brought to you by better help being independent is good but you should never be afraid to ask for help when you need it after all we're only human we can't know everything that's why it's crucial to have a support system people you can go to when it gets rough think of friends family members your partner hell even your dog when you're feeling down spending time with a furry friend can be a good pickme up but I get it sometimes you don't want to or can't go to them for help for these moments try therapy it can be a good source of support in any area of your life whether you're working on personal relationships job stress or something else therapy can teach you a multitude of different things to help you be your best self like how to set boundaries when to let go of toxic relationships and what to do when you feel overwhelmed and even more importantly you can do it in a safe space if you think therapy might be a good option for you a good place to start is better help they have a diverse network of therapist and everything is online which can be very convenient if you need a last minute session it's also very easy to switch therapists if it's not working out build your support system with betterhelp visit betterhelp.com to get 10% off your first month that's betterhelp hp.com JRE so I heard about those things were extraordinary and I had heard about this but I didn't know it was that accurate yeah that that happened and he was um as opposed to you know one of us he was uh he was right you know enough of the time that you could rely on what he was describing and also they came up with a way of measuring actually quantifying the value of your perception you know so I I told you know let's do another one because I'm on a rooll here you know after this speak in the end is he said no you know you're going home now I said well it's 9:00 you know we've only been here half an hour why are you sending me home I mean this is great I know I I got it right he said yeah you got it you you don't need all the levels I mean you got to the top level you were there uh why did he want to send you home he said I want you to stay with that feeling I don't want to do another one that you'd Miss and so on I I want you to keep that in mind because you got the whole thing is this based on past experiments and the way they were achiev achieving results yes every you know every test subject and so on and so he didn't want to give you another experience he wanted you to take that experience and just sit with it keep the experience with me during the day and because I got the whole signal right but and did you feel like that if you did that it would Aid you in your ability to do it in the future it would um yes I I would lose that sense of um uh direct direct access to something that bypasses your brain you know I I'm know basically you know I was trained in mathematics and physics and astronomy so my I I use the power of my brain that's analytical you know and I'm a good programmer computer programmer so on uh this is not this is very different this is grabbing a signal which has everything in it you know and and being able to to to catch it very fast and just get a little bit of information and then catch it again recall it you know that's what we were doing that you know five times six times 10 times until making sure that you don't try to name it you don't try to uh put you know a description on top of it it just stay with the signal and that I think that's an an amazing contribution from what Dr POF and and tar and and some of their subjects did was there a specifical a specific way that you achieved uh a state of mind that made you more able to perceive these coordinates or perceive whatever what signal you're getting from remote viewing it was uh I had a lot of admiration and love for Ingo for what he was capable of doing and you know his his art and his personality and so on uh he was you know very much admired in the whole the whole team um and and here I think it was the the structure also of the experiment you know I I I I trusted what he was trying to teach me I've always so open to it yes you trusted it so you're open to it I I had you know both the the admiration and the trust for did he ask you to put your mind in a specific place did you was was there a way of counting yourself into the idea is not to put my mind into it you know just to let it just let it come just be because my mind is itical right of course and um you know I've I was always very good in math U and um you know I mean you have to be if you're going to be an astronomer and the so I can be very structured and so on this is not structured this is boom and then then you can begin to analyze it but you to analyze it keeping your your rational mind you know away from so you just have to let the information come to you somehow or another and not try to imagine the information or create the information orce it right just let it happen to you and so you had seen him do this and so you and you knew that this was a valid field of research so you were just open to it and you just sat down there and tried to let it happen to you did it happen any other time that was that resembled the Andy Peaks where that you have that overwhelming feeling of cold and falling did you have that feeling with anything else yes I I had some of that but this one was you know just completely shocking because it was and I think that's a a characteristic of the when you really get it you know there is no question and you know in the movie Patton yes Patton is sent to North Africa because to fight RL raml is there with his tanks and the American Army is going to isn't ready to invade Europe but wants to to start you know controlling the the Germans in North Africa he sent there he lands there is a you know a lieutenant there with a jeep that takes him to the place where there was there was a a battle and the Americans were decimated you know by raml was a just a genius you know German general uh great with tanks just like he was Patton considered him as his major you know enemy because both of them understood tanks and uh so uh patent gets in the Jeep that's in the movie it's just absolutely perfect I've checked that this was his historical you know exact in the movie they uh they drive to the site of the battle and they get to in in the desert in the Jeep and they get to a fork in the road and the the you know the driver takes to the left and Pat and said uh son you know why don't we go to the right because that's where the battle was and the uh the driver says sir uh you know with all due respect I mean I I I was very in that battle is on the left he said trust me go to the right and they go to the right and they get to the edge of a plateau where you see a big plane and Paton says this is where the battle was with Hannibal came from the left with his elephants you know and the the the battle was there you know in and and I I had been there I was there Pon thought that in his he was reincarnated from a a Roman general who had been at that battle against Hannibal and his elephants and you know the poor driver saying you know how how did this happen you know how did I get here with with this General who thinks he's reincarnated you know who fought against Hannibal and um they I've worked with people as as you know I've run a number of venture capital field uh funds uh with people people who had that kind of intuition you know and you think you think Finance is driven by greed and so on but at some level greed doesn't really matter you know it's it's getting to the truth of something especially inventure Capital where you're going to change the way things are done you know with these these gadgets with computers with uh you know rockets and so on uh you're going to go to a new generation of things so it hasn't been done before and the the the the the financial people you've got 10 engineers in front of you who can do it there is one who will succeed and nine who's going to fail and you have to pick you have to pick the the the thinking that's going to succeed you know I mean it's not it's not the money and it's not the technology it's the mind of the driver who who say no let's go to the right let's not go to the left you know I mean patn was extraordinary in in that I mean he was a remote viewer and he demonstrated that again and again you know there are some interesting books that I've collected from some of the some of his lieutenants you know who you would also have to consider that's an extraordinary State of Mind to be a general in a World War and the consequences of everything you do and what is at stake in this war is got to be a state of mind that's very very unusual with so many consequences and so much pressure that it probably makes some signals more clear if you have that ability to perceive them because you are you must be in a heightened state of awareness yes because just of the consequences of your life exactly but you you also have to be detached I mean you know eventually he's going to go to the battlefield where the you know bodies of soldiers who have been killed they burning tanks and everything else they show that in the movie I mean that's where he's supposed to go yeah but you know his his mind is at a different level uh and when did they first start researching this and when did they believe that this was an ability that some people had oh uh you know way back in Antiquity really yeah uh and you know they they had U Sears that uh the the king would go consult uh whether he um he should engage in in a war with you know they had the the Greeks had the Pia you know who was um a a woman who they they had an an area a volcanic area where they were fumes coming out of the earth you know that was supposed to be one of the dolls to the underworld and so on and there was a a special uh cult around that that place and uh you know the the the the the king would would go there before great decision and and would would ask the message from you know the the underworld or the message from the from the mind of the woman who was interpreting what was coming from the earth so that has been you know regarded as um uh you know um Hitler Adolf Hitler was uh in in his before the war you know as a when he got to be the leader of of Germany he he exhibited and he very much believed in those th those Powers I I think he got to the point where he trusted it too much and he started making mistakes and that could be used against him he was you know you have to get the ego out of the way and of course that's the hardest thing you know for for us to do especially to a narcissist dictator who's on drugs that's right yeah that's right well that that's the always the age-old problem with Sears like how do you know who's a charlatan and who's real because there's always a bunch of fake psychics there's fake palm readers fake tarot card readers people that just con artists that are just trying to Swindle people out of money but that doesn't discount the possibility that some people have these bizarre abilities and that is something that people have sort of recognized forever but it's always been dismissed especially in this modernday reductionist culture that likes to only look at things that are you know tried true proven agreed upon you know and then trust the science like this this concept that well I think as you [Music] know in science I mean the burden is on you as a scientist to come up with an experiment that will discriminate between the random things and and you know we'll give you will give you guides to you know well I think that's what they've done with the telepathy tapes and I'm hoping uh the success of this and then they're going to do a whole series on it where they're doing a documentary and they're showing all the footage so you're going to be able to see it for yourself and I'm I'm hoping that this stops the ridicule because there's a bunch of scientists when and I think this is with the UAP topic as well uh the UFO topic as well I think um there's a bunch of people that don't want to consider it because there's too much out there and there's too much of a possibility that you could look like a fool and to a very respected scientist whose research is very important as you were talking about with the IBM thing where there's hundreds of millions of dollars that are dedicated towards East why would you risk all that and The credibility of all that on this nonsense about people seeing things with their brain in a closed room finding coordinates pretending they're on top of a mountain all that kind of stuff well fortunately you know certainly in you know in California uh there are people who can take risk you know uh and and and put a few million dollars behind yeah behind uh behind something shout out Stanford y yeah and and uh you know as you know I come from France and in in France uh it's very very hard to do that you know because the system is very structured and very conventional and so on even though France has had some of the brightest people in in that kind of research so it's just a cultural limitation of the culture yeah you know sort of everything has to be rational because yeah America's a little more chaotic and they also as as you know France has had for a long time has had a a project on UFOs official project uh and uh that takes reports from the public and they investigate them and they it's a very small team but they have access to all the resources of French research so they can you know they can get the weather people they can get the you know the Air Force they can get the radar people they can get all of that so they can tap into the resources of a lot of different Departments of of the government so it's it's it's very powerful so they they will explain they find a rational explanation for about 95% of all the reports which is true I I agree with that you know I've been there so it's about 95% you can explain away it's not hoaxes those are you know people who really think that they've seen something unusual right but what they what was unusual to them may have been the Moon Rising through the fog and it looks like an elongated disc and and then after a while it's things change and so on ball lightning yeah there's a few things they they really think they've seen a flying saucer coming over or they there are about 200 or 250 possible physical things that could that really could surprise you you know that are unusual that would create conditions under which a normal person would think that there are in the presence of a UFO then you know what's interesting is the other 5% yes the other 5% is in your face you know I have um reports of U something that moved like the Tic Tac you know from the the French Air Force in the 50s there was a French jet over Morocco that was flying and there was a radar tracking the Jet and I I had the the reports from the French Air Force with the chart and that the thing he was chasing went up you know all in fraction of a second went to the top of the atmosphere you know just like the the nimit case so those things are not new I mean they' they are in the files if you take the trouble to look at the files and they're in the files far back enough in history that it's impossible to imagine human technology achieving these things absolutely well especially in the 50s I mean right well the kold anything that had gone into space yeah there's there's a bunch of cases that rule out the possibility of human technology when you're talking about people using propeller planes and and seeing these things we were at a time technologically where it's not possible to imagine that someone had gone that far beyond us now we are in that time where you see things you go well how much of that is some sort of top secret government program some military program and they have drones that can move at extraordinary speeds with some uh undisclosed propulsion system that's possible today at least theoretically it's it's um you know we we entertain those ideas but back then this is one one of the more fascinating things I I told you last night that I consumed three of your books in the last six months and um the there was this the series of three that you did that had a bunch of different encounters not just right now I'm on the invisible College but the last ones that I read were um the ones on various contacts that people have had and the similarity of these stories and they go way back way back way back before it was sort of a cultural artifact like right now I think in people's minds the gray aliens are so iconic a flying saucer like that that's a copy of uh the sport model from Bob lazar's Adventures these things are in pop culture to the point where you almost would expect to see them you know you look for them you if you see something you could imagine that you could twist it up in your mind and make it like that but the problem is these stories go way before that they're they're too similar they go a long long way back and there's too many that are very very similar to what we're talking about today to the point where it a rational person would have to say maybe there's something more to this what do you got there yeah I I brought you this uh it's a token it's not a coin it's a token from burgundy in France from the you know the a few centuries ago the the Duke of um burgundy was under attack there was a lot of turmoil in French politics and the King was fighting the the the the noble the great nobility and so on was in In Cahoots to get rid of the king and so on and they were going to be attacked and he needed money to raise an army and he appealed to people in burgundy to send him money and this was a token that that they would the the the the king the uh the Duke you know would give people who had given him money to raise this Army and on on the face of it is this disc yeah that's holding up um that's protecting the land from forces above you know there are all these arrows raining down on the land and the land is protected by this flying disc so it it doesn't mean that they had seen a flying saucer in at that time but the idea has always been there of you know dis like objects that were that were not meteors that were not you know all the natural explanation that that were real disc you you find that in Legends you find that in you know in history J can you see if you could find an image of this we could show people you found yeah that's it yep yes wow and you see it's it's protecting the land and it's hovering in the sky uh protecting it from all the thunder clouds above well you know there were a few of those things in in history and you know I've I've as you know I've collected those with I have with a a group of wouldn't that be interpreted as a shield um well it it is shown as a as a shield you know that's going to stop all those arrows right but but that's what they used to stop arrows back then they used a shield yes so that doesn't that just make I mean that doesn't seem to me to be a UFO it seems to me to be a shield that they would protect yes but it's it's also you know it's not exactly the shape of a uh uh you know of a of a shield most Shields are you know more oblong but some of them are round but it's the the point is it's hovering in the sky protecting the land underneath okay and I think some of the more compelling stuff is like the stuff in the ancient Hindu scripts the the vimanas and all these different flying crafts that people described that they've always been a thing that people have described and and we've been able to trace it to actual investigations or actual records because of course when people described something like that especially there was some sort of being associated with it you know it could be the devil it could be that so they had to see a priest and confess and and you know and they were in trouble if you reported that thing most most of the time you'd be in trouble it couldn't be a normal thing sotic today they just you know they just fire you from wherever you work because maybe you're a c and then at least they don't burn you alive anymore and people yeah that's lucky um but people do uh have a fear a legitimate fear of being ridiculed and that could stop their ability to be promoted within whatever organization they're in that you don't want to think oh there's cookie B over there who thinks the aliens are watching us the the best cases I get uh are from Executives in Silicon Valley whose family has seen something or who have seen something and they've described you know frankly UFOs to me and uh's another one different from later it that looks way different right so that coin is much more compelling cuz that looks like something flying in the sky the city that doesn't look like a shield at all and what is that Peak at the bottom of it it's the same thing whatever it is yeah that's very different you can tell those things have been in the culture you know they sort of repressed in the culture and and the anthropologists don't want to look at that you know they don't there's a really old painting that um like a Biblical painting of uh these uh people that look like they're flying around in like SE in these crafts in the sky I've never seen any sort of a conventional explanation what what is that arst depicting so the usually the explanation when you when you read uh what the historians have said it's it's supposed to be you know some God or some higher level entity that's coming to protect people and so on but when you look at the detail I mean it it really looks like a machine it really looks mechanical see if you could find that image Jamie do you know the one I'm talking this one yeah that's exactly but we wanted to like the one on the lower right well both of them but the lower like what is that that looks like a craft it looks like someone's seated in a craft it's an you know an Envoy from God or a an angel who's been sent but the problem with those is that the painting you know it may relate to something that was written in the 3 century and the painting is a 16th century painting you know so we didn't look at that that much I mean it's interesting from a S like the one with the Virgin with the you know so it may be that the the artist was witnessed to something and he wanted to memorialize it and he put it in his painting but it's not tied to the the time of the Virgin you know right right right they just added it in there we can't U that suppos to be in the back we stayed away from that we we wanted to go to records of somebody having actually testified that he saw something or she saw something right not just artwork right um but it just is very bizarre that this artwork continually depicts people in crafts and look what is that thing and what the hell and there is a communication with the man who's looking up at it he's looking at it and and there's a sense of that he's actually seeing it and having a sense of what it is it's like an Easter egg someone put into the painting so this may that the artist sort of U you know put that in as a as a side of course you know the main theme is the Virgin and the child what's that one over there Jamie in the second row that says inside ancient yeah that one what the hell is that that's what really freaks me out is the uh paintings on Cave walls that look just like Grays these bizarre paintings of things that just look like they are people wearing helmets and uh the most interesting to me come from the Sahara you you know the um have friends who are anthropologists who worked with the UN in in in Africa and so on and in Parts in in part of the Sahara and the what they one Theory they have is that the the culture that eventually moved to Egypt came from the Sahara so I say well Sahara is just s it send today but we know that at one time it was flourishing there were forests there was water in fact there is water but it's underground water it's a large amount of underground water there was a sea there at one time and so uh there there probably was an earlier civilization and some of those come from the tasil the tassili is a region in the Sahara where there are a lot of those representations so there were a lot of people living there at one time and they painted that on the Rocks see if you can find some of those Jamie yeah it and you see similar things that indigenous people in Australia have painted similar it's all over the world yes in completely separate environments very similar features um in these cave paintings and um well I I think archaeologists wouldn't disagree with that I think they would say the problem is that we don't correlate it I mean they didn't write anything right you know the um it's open interpretation we don't have a good correlation so we have to keep keep looking for that but but that's you know that's fascinating but in in our book we made the rule that number one uh we don't want isolated human figures even with you know suits and so on we we really want a a device a flying device you know otherwise you have you know you could fill 40 books with images of strange creatures right um the I mean what are the things that people see you know in uh um around the ranch now you know in the skinwalker in Utah AR all of that so um have to be careful on the boundaries of of those things but we we wanted to get to a place where there was testimony about somebody seeing a flying disc that was strange to them in their culture and remember in those cultures those were agricultural cultures so with people who were used to interpreting the weather looking at the phases of the moon looking at the rising time of the Sun and all that was important for their you know for their agriculture so they they they knew their environment very well you know better than we do as you know people living in in cities so uh we we can take that to some extent that you know has a scientific value especially when you can build a model of you know a number of those across different different centuries but in in that book we we were careful to break the book into um into sections you know corresponding to different evolution of the culture explaining first a couple of pages what was happening during that time in terms of new inventions like when the telescope was invented did When U when certain things were discovered and so on so we were careful to to put it in in context with every reinterpreting the the description by the witness in the context that was appropriate well it was very thorough and very objective which is what I really enjoyed about it where you were very clear what we absolutely knew and very clear what could be nonsense and myth and that one of the things that keeps occurring over and over again is these similar Stories the stories are really similar from the 1700s to the 1800s into the 20th century and then you again now it gets more muddy because now you have a bunch of people that realize that there's value in concocting a story and then talking about it and selling a book and there's I think there's people that are grifters and I think they you know I probably had a few of them on they they've they are capitalizing on this desire that people have for stories well also now uh we think that the government has the answer yeah so uh people spend their time uh you know writing to different agencies and listening and listening to reports from Pilots which is fine of course uh and people in the military people in the intelligence Community but and those are very valuable because they have now they have instruments you know to actually measure what they see on the an f8 and so on and they are covered by radar and by awax and everything else so we can rely on that so scientists and you know many people like the numerical aspect of it I don't do that you know I mean I I don't pretend to have access to that I mean we had access under bigo you know and under bus to some of that uh you know including some of the classified things that had happened but there is a much richer pool of data which is you know a friend tells me about the sighting in in the country somewhere I can go there I can go see the people and I can find out you know exactly what happened and uh I continue to do that and that's most of my data and it's it's 10 times bigger than the stuff they talk about from the Pentagon you know I mean it's it's it's real data from that and I don't need to have a clearance to go see the the people and sit down if I'm lucky they'll invite me for lunch and you know I can talk to the kids I can talk to the wife I can talk to the the people who took care of the cattle and they'll they'll tell me and um that's where most of my information is really coming from and it's not you know it's just very much in your face uh and um it's consistent how consistent are the shapes of the crafts it's a tough question you know uh many of the descriptions have to do with discs you know um and EGS different different sizes you know some of them are very large um some a number of descriptions have to do with you know for a long time with cigar shaped objects you know cylindrical rounded at the end sometimes with what people describe as windows that may just be openings with light uh you know in the side side of it doesn't have to be what we think of as as a window and then you have some irregular shapes you know just balls of light um that physicist interpret as maybe plasma but plasma doesn't survive in the air you know shouldn't survive in the air more than a minute maybe but uh people have you know seen uh some of those things for minutes and longer you know long enough to take pictures of it so on and and it's not necessarily glowing it's not necessarily luminous the way uh you know plasma would be so uh we don't we don't know where they are and they've been reported all over all over the world again they are you know uh paintings of of that kind of thing from the 18th century or the the 17th century yeah so um that that I've collected and published so uh what the comp different categories what are the most compelling paintings that we could we could find right now from like the 1700s or 1800s [Music] um I I think there there is a beautiful uh beautiful painting of hills and three blue spheres that are not moving that seem to be suspended in the air very distinct blue blue spheres that were seen and somebody you know recorded it and somebody did a painting of the scene those are things that people wanted to remember because they knew it was and what year was this painting from um I don't remember the year I couldn't tell you but it's very old P 16th 17th century um do you know the name of it like so Jamie could try to find it online uh no I could I could send you the picture okay okay um so there's also a bunch of depictions of egg-shaped crafts yes this is very common as well right yes and um the the couple that you uh had in one of your books from was it the mining people from um was it California or was it you was it I uh wrote a a book um with paa Harris called Trinity about an egg shaped object that happened 1945 near uh White Sands that now we have reinvestigated it the first book was criticized and you know appropriately by someone who said I hadn't gone to enough of the written records well now we've done that so we've republished the the book it's called Trinity and it it covers three cases in all three cases the object is egg shaped the size of a a mediumsized truck okay uh it would fit in this room you know it would be about the size of this room um then there is a case in Soro and there is a case in Valen Sol so Coro and valeno and and people have concentrate on the first one you know they one that because it's it it's two years before Roswell and there were witnesses there you know in was well there were no witnesses there were people who came later who found the stuff and they they reconstructed the story and it's a very interesting story but at um Trinity they saw it arrive and they saw it crash and they were there for 10 days afterwards watching the recovery so we and they went inside I one of them went inside and his father went inside also so we have a very rich description of that and where is it in the literature nowhere I mean you know paa Harris found this did research for four years on that and then told me about it and then we did another four years of research together at at the site and we found a lot of correlations but there are the sakuro case and the Valen Sol case could you do you explain tell me before we move on to that those other cases what correlations did you find well uh the in all three cases it's an egg shap object in all three cases are traces that could be seen could be um described could be analyzed in all three cases beings are short they are you know about uh 3 feet 3 and A2 ft they breathe air and what kind of extraterrestrial is it that comes here and breathes the air okay we don't go if we go to the Moon we're not going to breathe the air how do we know that it breathes at all how do how do we know that these things breathe at all they had no breathing equipment funing normally biological they had two eyes uh a small nose small mouth but couldn't they possibly be some sort of a creation instead of uh being a biological entity couldn't they be some sort of artificial life so I I've um I've asked uh Gary Nolan about that you know I mean I'm not a biologist and um I think it would be known if somebody had created a a muman I don't mean somebody I mean another life form from somewhere else there were stories of the Russians uh actually thinking about creating a a dwarf you know human to Pilot their ships because they didn't expect to have the energy you know the to to have a big rocket it turned out they found that cor get tiny people to power their ships because they were lighter but the the CIA was looking into rumors that the Russians in the 50s be you know before Sputnik that the Russians were trying to create a a humanoid uh that that could pilot a spaceship well I know that the Russians there was some talk of them trying to create a human ape hybrid they were trying to do something with chimpanzees and try to create some sort of a human chimpanzee hybrid for war which is a terrifying thought yeah that they would first of all if they were successful how terrifying would that be but just that they were interested in doing that creating a race of chimpanzee human Warriors um there was no to my knowledge there hasn't been any correlation of that and the the creatures that are described in Soro in New Mexico and in Valen Sol in France so those are three cases that I've been very involved in from from the beginning from the from day one um involve creatures that are about you know 3T tall that breathe our air recognize our signals you know communicate with us in funny ways even me mentally I mean the witnesses describe getting images in their minds and so on in all three cases and the uh what's interesting is you know people can argue about Trinity all they want like they argue about Roswell but the the case in sakuro and the case in in France in Valen Sol were investigated by government you know not by uh you know the local UFO group although the local UFO group did a good job in all those cases but they were in Soro it was first the you know the local police local police saw the craft and the beings and described what happened they he was terrified but you know when the thing took off uh he thought it was something to do with some new Gadget or some work in the desert or it's an area that's still in the same state today I've gone back there with Dr Heek son you know with Paul HCK a few months ago I've gone several several times there and so after the police uh turned out the FBI was in town on another case they had no jurisdiction in New Mexico for that particular case it wasn't a federal case but they helped preserve the ca the traces you know the FBI way and uh the local police was happy to have them there and and then there was the the state police came in and did an investigation and then people from the bay you know uh came in with with experts in uh in explosives experts in recovery of uh of weapons and and Rockets and so on because they thought it might be something that had come from um you know from the Trinity range that was out of its way and had crashed near sooro in which case they might have responsibility including financial responsibility if something was destroyed or whatever so they this was very serious I have the whole file okay it's a big file right nobody's looking at it I mean the the investigation in Washington now they are saying we're going to look at the cases of the last 12 months well what kind of science is that can can you imagine scientists reading this and this is way they are going to solve the UFO Problem by by looking at vague pictures of lights in the sky for one year you know why don't they go back to those records those are federal records okay the case in Valen five agencies of the French government so this this guy was a a farmer he had a field where he was growing plants for to make perfume so this was high level you know expensive crop this wasn't just you know alala or something and he he goes there at 5:00 in the morning because uh you know he wants to do some to water the the thing and so on before the sun is is up because it's going to be very south of France it's going to be very hot you can't work in the field during the early afternoon so he wants to be done with that he sees this contraption you know in the middle of the field crushing the you know the plants and so he sneaks in and he's paralyzed okay now uh there is an egg-shaped object just like they one you know at Trinity just like they one in sakuro it's a size of a a midsize truck there are two creatures in front of it human you know human looking two eyes breathing air they look at him sort of amused and one of them has something on his belt takes out points pointed at him and that's when he's paralyzed now he's not you know as you know I'm not a doctor but I've gone to doctors about what kind of paralysis is that where you can stand up and watch something you just can't move they said well there is a type of paralysis that will just inhibit the motor you know motor nerves where you you but you'll still be up and aware you're not going to fall down you know in a in a heap and from there he sees them going back inside the thing the thing takes off it takes off like a shut out of a gun and it vanishes in midair okay now he goes to see the jands this man is fairly wealthy he owns quite a bit of you know several Fields expensive crops his wife is the mayor of the town the garms are going to be very careful with him because he's also from the resistance in well War I when he was young he joined the resistance and the resistance in that part of France fought in the in the Alps against the Germans and you know they were regarded as heroes of World War II uh and so the sharms are very careful with him there are some things he's not going to tell the sharms because he thinks and I I went there he didn't want to talk to anybody from Paris he didn't want to be on TV he he wanted to concentrate on his experience because he thought there was going to be something else and he was aware of some of his buddies now this is a part of France where people talk but they have secrets too I mean historically you know uh there are things like that in the US you know Parts where people are not going to talk to strangers right the only reason I could go there was that I was I I went there with um a lady who was from Paris was from with the government he was with the Gold's government she had a rank of Ambassador and she had a vacation home there so we went there for three days and she knew everybody there and uh he told us what he thought might happen again and uh he so he didn't want the sharms mixed in with what what he was doing why why did he think that something was going to happen again um they evidently and you know he SWS to secrecy about what it was but evidently there was communication with the beings when when was fair and so these beings just tiny look like people did they have different features than us or was it just human they are just like the ones at Trinity and like the ones at Soro so in that book you have actually uh two two and three you have seven creatures that are humanoid that breathe our air that seem to understand us you know the visual ual uh you know there is visual contact um well we can have visual contact with animals I mean that doesn't mean they are human or M human but the uh there there there is messages that come through all of that that the Witnesses are reluctant to talk about in all three cases so in sooro finally the Air Force went there they threw the Air Force out because the Air Force said well you know that's just a a gadget you know and from from the from the base and you know that was stupid so they finally sent Dr HCK there and uh Dr HCK asked me to organize the the FES that were coming I was at Northwestern at the time you know working working I had done my my PhD already and I was on the staff of the Computing Center and had a small team trying to help you know free trying to help high neck keep the fights together so we we were you know in communication with him the whole time and then I I put the files together and I have a file you know this is the official fact so these people were reluctant to talk about what these creatures were communicating with them but did they talk about it at all it was it it was very personal very personal yeah it there there had been a communication that transcended their life there was something else something outside so you could almost call it a sort of a religious feeling but it wasn't it it wasn't about Divinity or God specifically but it was about you know the other side of life some a bigger meaning for life but that's that's their interpretation it may not be there may be other things that they are trying to communicate but but it was very profound for that you yes but and the all three cases had similar stories in that regard and in all three cases there are there are traces that were measured there are you know there is technology of sort and in in the case of sakuro people came up with all kinds of ideas that maybe it was a balloon you know I mean uh special special balloon right there were only 12 of them in the world and so on well in in the book people haven't noticed it but in in the book I I I was able to to solve that problem because I found a transcript of a conversation with a man who was head of a moto pool at the uh on on the you know Army range in uh at White Sands um and he had given his team some instructions on you know how to make sure that the motor pool was working really well because white sand is so big when when people went home uh they could get lost you know at White sense and then how are you going to find them I mean there are tracks but there is no paved Road at the time uh how are you going to you know find them so you can launch a helicopter the next day looking for you know a lost car somewhere with a family in it but so he made rules that they had to call periodically to report where they were when they went home you know 50 mil away across the desert so uh so they could find them if there was something wrong with the car he's driving home with his family this is after the sakuro thing is done you know they are all interrogating the lon zura the cop who was driving that thing and he sees light over the mountains in the southwest towards Mexico uh but it's still you know it's still in New Mexico but it's it's in that direction light that's not a star it's really bright and the the light gets brighter and brighter and his car dies now his head of a motor pool okay for the base everybody reports to him and they have all the you know all the army cars and the trucks and everything else the half tracks um so uh he looks at that thing uh he tries to call his team the radio doesn't work radio should work radio doesn't work and the the thing it's very bright and then it recedes it goes It goes away the way it apparently came in we don't know if it came in or if it just got bright but okay the the car starts he goes home and then the next day he goes to his shop he gets his stuff together he says you guys are going to take this car apart I want to see every screw and every piece of it and every level and everything and the seats and so on I want to see all of that on the floor and you're going to test it and you're going to tell me what's changed or if anything how that car stopped in the middle of the desert and they couldn't find anything and that report was an official report okay that was never published and it it Nails the whole thing you know that this was not a balloon this was not an hallucination the the the patrolman wasn't drunk like they accused him of or making up a story and so on the lon samura when Dr Heek interrogated him he said he wanted to talk to a priest and confess to a priest before he would talk to Dr HCK okay that's the kind of man he was and they essentially destroyed this guy because they thought it was you know bad reputation for the town of sakuro the tourists wouldn't come there because they'd be afraid of strange things flying and therefore said well it's a one witness case you know there's this patrolman who saw this there were 12 witnesses there was a a guy who was driving on the main road the same road where the patrolman had been driving who the the thing passed right over his car he thought he was going to be driven off the road by this big oval thing that just went went right over the the the roof of the car into the desert well he called the he called the police and reported it there's a a written report he signed that report we know his name they were without him having any knowledge of what happened that's right I mean he saw this some independently you know one of your gget trying to drive me off the road you there were there were several people on the road on the other side of this little you know desert thing that's you know when it rains they the water rains all over the place W washes everything out just sand and rocks but on the other side there is a main road several people on the road saw the thing take off and reported it because it was just so strange so the Air Force put that aside they neglected to you know this was and they they just kept saying it was a one witness case it wasn't most of those cases where they say it was one witness and you have to look at the you have to look for the other guys and um again uh you know I I brought you something can I tell you about it sure what' you bring so this is something that uh the case was so interesting that Dr Nolan and I and a couple of friends wrote it up and published it in the prime uh astronautics review in in the world okay it's uh so after uh it took a couple of years for them to agree to look at it and so on to look at the analysis this happened in a suburb of Omaha Nebraska but on the Iowa side there is this town suburb with a park this is uh about a week before Christmas in 1977 okay um people are there having a good time in the park in the evening it's it's getting you know it's getting dark and um and um I want to make sure I'm yeah um the they see something in the sky that looks like one of those boxes there you know it looks like a a round box with with lights around it and the lights are going are going around sort of and and it it's pretty high and it's flying over the the town um and then a mass of Steel liquid steel form falls in the park it falls on the levy in the park there is about half a ton of it liquid glowing it has nothing no business being there so you you have this mass of metal uh obviously they call the glowing you say it's molten weather is freezing we we know the temperature and everything else it's freezing the the grass is on fire around it they call the firemen the firemen call the police the police gets there and the firemen get there they they stop the fire the fire is you know would have died by itself there's no no problem there they take pictures of The Thing glowing I have the pictures infrared uh no polid pictures of the of of the the thing glowing in in the grass Burning uh I mean liquid and uh it's going to stay liquid for a couple of hours and it cools down gradually and then people take pieces of it as souvenirs so I have the pieces of it and there they are now um there was analysis done by two Labs obviously the question is where where did that come from I mean you know uh and uh there is chromium titanium and iron which you can find in ordinary steel but this isn't really the composition isn't exactly what you'd expect Industrial Steel to be so one of the chemical analysis is done at the lab you know for a um for Industrial Steel uh the investigators call the the company the company says yes we make you know steel uh so we have furnaces but we empty the the the furnaces is this is over a weekend the factory is closed there would be nobody there you know and certainly no liquid no liquid Steel in in our Factory half a ton of it they they have yeah this is half a ton that they found sitting there so um so then they they call the Strategic Air Command because b52s fly over that town B-52 is a big thing and the people saw something in the sky so you know maybe it was the Air Force you know politely laughs at at them and says you know we carry atom bombs but we don't carry furnaces with Molten steel okay so go look something somewhere else and they say good luck by the way this is a way you could test it this is a way I mean the Air Force we think people think number one there is nothing in the Blue Book files worth looking at that's not true I I spent four years know Dr Heck had copies of all the files the files were not classified there were a few random cases that were classified for other reasons not because of the because of where it was or so whatever U that I didn't have access to I was just a graduate student you know PhD um I went through we convinced Dr Heck and I convinced the Air Force to do a computer file of everything they had about UFOs because before then it was just paper files all over the place and if they were challenged by Carl Sean or somebody like that at the time they wouldn't be able to provide good statistics so they agreed for me to get the files and redo punch them into Punch Cards take it to a computer redo the statistics looking at their explanation and then my explanation for the for the cases I did the whole the whole thing thousands and thousands of cases there were were right that majority were explainable okay what we were looking for were the ones that were not explainable this one cannot be explained okay and there are enough of those hundreds of those that scientists could have looked at no I I went through the air force base with my French passport at the time I wasn't a citizen you know you had to wait 5 years before you could apply for for American citizenship so I was working I had a small contract that was completely you know unclassified to recalibrate the statistics of the Blue Book FES so I had access to essentially all the Blue Book files but uh I went into the base with a clearance for three days with Dr HCK to go to the uh you know uh the the division that was looking at at the UFOs and uh spend those three days with uh major quila and his staff going through the fires and they they had lots of remains of things and stones and strange metals and so on which at the end of the project all that was thrown away so this is all every everything is going on now this is for you by the way this is for your your special collection of all right weird things yeah this is essentially it's steel there we go so that's the area where mass of Steel glowing um and so this steel you can make on Earth this is this is It's a composite of a bunch of different materials it's not exactly the steel that you use in construction or in but it it is essentially steel and so we I I I gave my samples to um you know to Stanford so that uh we could redo the analysis and not the chemical analysis but the isotope analysis so Dr Nolan and I took it to the lab Dr Nolan had two series of instruments that could do the analysis we did both and confirmed essentially this so there was no special change in the isotope ratios if there was that would indicate that somebody had manipulated the Isotopes which is not a hoax then you know you know for sure it's not a hoax because that's you know that that's High Caliber scientific laboratory work and you need special you know instrument experts to to interpret it right but that wasn't the case right so so the Isotopes hadn't been manipulated have they H found because I've heard this about Gary Nolan in particular that they do have samples of things that they can't explain so I I gave him essentially all my samples all the ones that I could relate to Reliable cases because I don't want to give him junk right there's a lot of junk floating around that people think is strange and um so yes we we're uh going through all those you know and the idea is to publish it as we go you know to publish everything as we go there are some that give the indication of being but you know as always in science we have to be careful our colleagues will say very good um you know congratulations you did that U with one instrument now you should redo it with a different lab with a different machine and see what they find because uh Dr Nolan has some of those machines are machines that he's invented at Stanford okay that uh but they are tied to biology I mean this is not a biology this is steel okay and this is iron or copper or whatever so uh we have to redo it with a different so in this case we have redone it with a different line of machines there is a a French machine that cost something like $6 million that would fill you know half of this room that's extremely good for testing for Isotopes but only on four different elements uh with with the other machine the biological machine we we get the whole the whole Spectrum so except for the for some of the extreme elements like radioactive elements and so on so what samples have they found that have been the most compelling uh we're still working on that you know but this paper is important even though we didn't find something out of range but that's in a way that's validation of what you have to do when somebody presents you with that kind of sample those are the steps this is where the science is today this is what the technology can tell you okay so this is sort of a stake in the ground even though we didn't find ET okay but we we didn't find ET science we found physical evidence of something got the technology now we know how to do it you know one problem we had was that neither one of us is U um you know an expert in materials we're not experts in steel so the the people who uh this was reviewed by you know people who were materials experts right and they came back with a whole page of questions why didn't you look at this why didn't you measure that so so Dr Nolan the team had to redo about a year of work before they would accept the paper so that's what you have to go through before scientists will look at it right okay but this one you know is in the literature in the scientific literature it's not in some UFO magazine in New Mexico okay and uh we can now we have the methodology we can apply it to the others there are some that we've done with one machine um where there are indications now at Stanford Stanford it's funny because you've had three generations of of people you know at Stanford looking at this you know before Dr Nolan I was there and I was gathering data and I was using the computer to do statistics and so on and I work for Professor sturak who unfor fortunately died a few months ago at over 100 but he was still working in astrophysics and uh you know I was on his astrophysics staff for a couple of years looking at uh at galaxies looking at the structure of the Sun and and um looking at um at certain types of strange stars that had special emissions and so on so I was his computer guy and we uh also looked at you know UFO uh materials uh especially a case from Brazil which he published and he got financial support to to do the isotope analysis and some of it was arguably different so we want to redo it I you know when in he done ated all his materials to me you know when he retired so I I I have all that and I passed it to Dr Nolan so Stanford now has a is acquiring reputation as being a UFO analysis place you know yeah for sure but it it went from essentially solar physics and uh High very high energy physics you know that I was working on with Dr sto uh to me with the computing center now with Dr Nolan in the medical school so we've had you know they are they are well I'm glad you're willing to do that um I had heard that there was some alloy that was uh very difficult to comprehend that someone would be able to construct that it would cost billions of dollars to make this uh particular type of alloy that they had discovered something along those lines well there I I've seen those books I've heard those things on the internet and the question is you know scientists will want to look at this they want to know well did how did you do it how did you prepare the sample right we were given access to a sample that's that in fact is very strange and it has different colors on it it it fits in the pal of your hand you know so it's it's a significant size uh remember Dr Nolan is looking at individual human cells you know with this device okay so you know anything more than 10 grams you know we don't need I mean we we can work with very little material although of course we want to do different things with different parts of it right but but this thing had some very interesting incrust of some a red deposit and all the people who had looked at it including some official labs and some signed a disclaimer saying they would not scrape off the the interesting deposits that were on it well all of them did you know I mean after signing the thing by the time it came it came to me most of the in red stuff had been scraped off so I don't know what they did you know so um and I don't know what machine they used and they didn't publish a paper it took us four years to publish this paper okay the paper came from Stanford with you know phds four phds writing it so uh that's know the bar is pretty high if you're going to actually publish this in in an international review yeah with an interesting title too so we'll do others you know that's that's a plan is if people want to find this it says improve instrumental techniques including isotope analysis uh uh applicable to the characterization of unusual materials with potential relevance to Aerospace forensics yeah he doesn't talk about UFOs that's a very uh tricky way well relevance to Aerospace forensics people read between the lines and see you mean Aerospace who Aerospace stuff this so this is the question if these if these encounters happened if this egg shaped uh craft was real and if these small people likee things that breathe air did communicate with people where are they from is this something that has always been here is this something that visits here is it something that is here so in the the bass project of Mr Balo that was funded by the defense intelligence agency we had a template of things that they the Pentagon wanted to to have and it said you know trajectory composition Luminosity radiation and so on okay well yeah those are the things that You' need if you were looking at a Russian aircraft you know or you were looking at you know the nits thing whatever it was but uh you know is that really relevant I mean in science you don't start from the conclusions you you're going to look at this and this is not something you've seen before and you go on from there you know in the Nimitz case we've all seen those photographs and they are I I've stopped counting how many papers there are from The New York Times on down with the picture of the you know the photograph of the that the the F18 was taking the pilot took from from the thing well nobody mentions that this isn't a photograph people think it's a photograph so in the file there is a memo from the folks at Ron Ron makes the device which is a big you know a big thing that you hang under the wing of an F18 that's going to take these images it's an image it's not a photograph it's looking at into the infrared it's not looking at the details you know if there is a number painted on the thing you see it it's looking at the heat so when this was published by the New York Times there was a very interesting memo with a little touch of humor uh from Ron to the Navy saying you know those things you've published and you know um it was taken with one of the devices that we sold you to put under the wing of your aircraft it's not a camera it's not a photographic camera you gave us specifications for what you wanted us to build and that's what we gave you you wanted something that could measure the temperature of the exhaust of an enemy aircraft that you're going to shoot down you know the F-18 goes behind that Russian thing or Mig or whatever and it the the camera is painting the exhaust from the Russian guy okay so that you can distinguish between you know American Airlines 723 and a MIG right okay that's going to help you discriminate what kind of enemy you've got you know is it Friend or Foe first if it's friend you peel off and that's fine uh if it's if it's an enemy you're going to engage the guy okay that's what we gave you you didn't tell us you wanted a device to track flying sources because we don't know what flying sources are if you do you know we'll build one and that that that memo is just so funny you know it's it's an official uh you know I I make it a little bit funnier than it was but uh it it's an official memo and it's very straightforward Jamie see if you could find a good photograph uh excuse me an image of uh the infrared image that was taken by those f18s you have an image of a heat Source yes of that uh Tic Tac and then um they also got the video representation the video of the thing taking off at some extreme rate of speed that's it right there so that's the that's the image right yeah well the uh the the rad that's the the um yeah that's the radar said that it took off and popped up somewhere else and so we we accept that um at face value because it's in the New York Times and that's that may be that may be true um in in my work in in Venture Capital you know I've looked at all kinds of Technology that's around and so I I go to technology meetings those are open they are not secret or anything and people talk about their Gadget or their device they are looking for money you know to make in in in larger quantity so um I found myself uh in a conversation with a guy from one of the aircraft companies in Southern Southern California and um I I I asked him you know there is there is a device that that has a funny name uh like dispro or something like that and it's uh uh it it measures the it it acquires radar signals uh it I think it's a this dspr you know uh for radar and that that Gadget I never heard of it and it's actually not classified now it was developed initially so that uh you could um analyze radar data that that was coming to you if somebody was painting your aircraft on a radar you could detect the characteristics of the radar pulse why would you want to do that well um you want to do that because and it I said well what does it look like you know is it classified you said no it's not classified you know many uh airplanes civilian airplanes can carry it you put it in the nose of your Piper cup or whatever and you fly around Los Angeles and it will acquire the characteristics of all The Radars in the Los Angeles area digitally it's a digital thing it's a computer Essen okay that acquires radar data and then it feeds back radar characteristics of any air aircraft you want somewhere else so if you want your paper cup to look like a B52 20 mil away you turn on I you know I'm making it simple but you you program the the thing and you can redirect the defense the air defense for example to another place so you can send a signal to another place that makes it look like there's a B52 there yes or make it look like you've disappeared in midair and reappeared somewhere else oh digitally it's a digital radar feedback device that once you know the characteristics of the Radars that are painting you you can I mean obviously suppose you want to travel to Moscow over the Iron Curtain without being shut down by the Soviet air air force uh you'd want to redirect the All The Radars so I mean you're on 20 Radars right one of the things that they said about the Tic Tac was that when they countered it it was somehow or another blocking their detection signals well you know that I don't know that this uh dir prom I I don't know how far it's gotten in the last 30 years the guy I was talking to was telling me about technology of 30 years ago W that I blew my mind I never didn't know you could you could do that right I didn't know until just now you could just paint so that's um I I'm not sure where the technology is and who is cleared for that you know Pilots are cleared for certain things obviously for all their equipment on board they are not necessarily cleared for so you have to ask in the case of the nits what clearances did these Pilots we see on TV what clearances did they have now did they have it electronic countermeasure clearance they don't necessarily have it I mean some of them didn't have the camera some of those who are on TV today talking about these images they the image didn't come from them it came from one of their buddies right you know came afterwards so there's also the question of so half the data is missing there's there's I've always questioned where they take place because they take place in the same areas where the United States always run military training exercises they take place off of San Diego off of the East Coast all these areas where we know that they run exercises all the time restricted airspace if you were going to test well equip this I think this was an international waters yeah yeah it was but it was still off the coast of San Diego where they do these things which is why the fighter pilots were there restricted I mean the Russians could fly there right not that area but isn't the area of the East Coast where some of those restricted I I don't know okay they want know Long Island is Long Island is is restricted uh it says China's electronic War Gadget turns small drones into flying Stadium on radar so this is an article from uh January of this year and then I'll show you something else I found from here wow so they can make it look like a flying sa the size of an iPad can make it look like as big as a sports Stadium whoa look at this the effect similar to a giant flying saucer suddenly materializing in midair would be reminiscent of a scene from a science fiction film but is achievable according to peer-reviewed paper published on January 8th who just also it's then the month before that here's their new stealth fighter that's painted with the the stuff he just said that scatters the frequencies or something not you know this isn't my field i u yeah this is just something I stumbled across typing in the words he was saying yeah just pretty cool so they they're testing this too what I was getting at was if you're the United States government if you're the military and you um have this kind of equipment and you want to test it what better way than to test it on people that don't know you're testing it on them send your fighter jets out there have them encounter these things run your whatever experiment you're doing with making something appear and reappear and take off and come and give them these signals give them these disruptive deceptive signals and see whether or not they the problem is they had visual confirmation of these things that's the real problem the problem is they actually saw these things like the the Tic Tac was they visually saw four people right well I I have a colleague in in Silicon Valley who's been the distinguished army career and and he told me that there there were in fact um tests of especially nuclear facilities not not NE necessarily the uh military but mostly the military facilities uh to test the ability to penetrate the perimeter so they those flights uh are not cleared with the people with who manage the plant so it's either nuclear plant that makes you know fuel for bombs or or it's a a base where nuclear weapons are stored and there are guys around the perimeter with machine guns and they are going to you know sound an alert if they see something coming over the fence well suppose you come over the fence looking like a flying sorcer are they going to start shooting or not okay so they they you know he told me that he had actually flown some of those missions and uh I know and another member of of the bass team who to confirmed that told me he had been on some of those missions the they they make the their their plane look like a you know they put lights around it and so that so it can look like a flying sorcery essentially or look like what a UFO what would be a UFO to the guard right so that the guard is they want to see if they can penetrate if you can this disguise yourself to the extent that psychologically you can inhibit the reaction of the Gods and you can fly over the fence wow because if you can fly over the fence you're in right you know you can do a lot of damage wow so so pretend you're a UFO so those those are but I don't think they do they do hundreds of those I think they probably do it you know very carefully at a couple of places you know but it's interesting that they have that ability that's that that's fascinating that throws a lot of the stuff into question like what are we actually seeing yes but it doesn't explain all these things and that's the pro the problem that I always have is the the just the abundance of encounters and how similar a lot of them are and then what it must feel like I've never had an experience but what it must feel like to have that experience that you probably would be very I wouldn't be reluctant cuz I'm a known person to talk about silly things but if you're not if you're like a serious person you have some sort of an encounter I would imagine there's a lot of pressure on you to not tell people if you're a lawyer or a doctor or you're any sort of like respectable person that's a a serious individual and whatever you're doing for a career you don't want people to associate you with nonsense or think that oh maybe Mike is losing his mind yeah you can't because you have people relying on your ability to so maybe you tell your friends maybe you tell your mother maybe tell your your wife but you probably don't tell the Press if you're if if you're a scientist I would imagine you would have to have like significant evidence for you to stick your neck out or you're a person like yourself that's been very brave for all these years because you were talking about this stuff in the 1960s which is pretty crazy well um you know I had seen essentially Flying Saucer when I was 15 so can you describe it I was in uh I I grew up in a little in a town that's uh about 45 minutes out of Paris uh on the road to Normandy and uh my father was a judge in that in that town for a while and uh beautiful afternoon in uh in the summer I don't know the exact date it would have been late June or July um 55 1955 um so I was about 15 16 uh I was still in school and then the following year I was going to go to the university and the my my mother called called me I was working with my father who was relaxing doing some furniture uh and I was helping him and I heard my my mother call from the yard and I went down and saw an object that was absolutely a sorcerer it looked like it was over the steeple of the there's a cathedral there and we were know about half a kilometer away from it and it was just suspended it was silver and there was a clear Dome on top of it and we both saw that uh it was very clear um and then the next day I asked a friend of mine from school who was you know we were the the two good students in physics and so on uh and I I told him I had seen that and he said he had looked at it with binoculars he had seen it too and he had looked at it with binoculars and I got him to draw it and he drew exactly what I had seen essentially a lens shaped thing with a a dome on a clear Dome on top how long did you see it for um I saw it for less than a minute I think I went inside I don't remember what I did um I logically I probably went inside to get my father so that he could he could see it and then when he came out it was gone U he well he didn't even come out he said it was probably one of the new the new planes that were flying around because this was a time when the the meteors and you know the early Jets were being tried and they training Pilots with them and so on and both for civil aviation and for for the Air Force in France so um he said well let's wait you know maybe this will be disclosed at some point so I didn't say anything about it also you know the son of a judge uh family of a judge isn't supposed to see strange things in in the air over the town and right so they they was sensitive um what year was this when you were 15 how old are you now it it was 195 55 1955 so back then I was 15 16 okay so we could also apply that like if it was a jet it would probably be very loud well and also it wouldn't just stand there right it wouldn't be able to just sit there was this thing quiet after that you know it I I understood that it was after that I worked at Paris Observatory after I had my degree in astronomy tracking satellites we track the very early satell ites and uh we were government you know office so people were writing to us with what they had seen and most of it we could explain for one thing they were seeing Echo and there was seeing some of the Russian Rockets you know and um so we would write back I mean we had to write back you know to French citizen mhm uh I had a card with a French flag on it and you know we were we were serving the the the population so we would explain those things pretty much the way they do now you know you've seen the moon rising through the fog or you've seen satellite you know so much Alpha 23 and but then there were cases where just like that where they they they saw something we could not explain but then we would tell them that wouldn't publish it we wouldn't send it anywhere for one thing it wasn't our job you know our job was tracking satellites right but that one experience that you had when you 15 is what ignited your interest in this for so many years yeah well if you hadn't been doing I mean the the thing that's very important about people like yourself is that you're so careful in how you document these things and in the conclusions that you draw because I think this field of UFO study is filled with so many people that claim to have answers claim to know things and this is going to happen and this is coming and this is this is disclosure is imminent and this and that's not it never comes true it's always just you're just left waiting for some new evidence that supposedly they have and this is the more frustrating aspects of it like when talking to Christopher melon he's telling me there's high resolution photographs and video video and how about showing me show show me some stuff show me something because as a person that had I wasn't when I was 15 I didn't see anything so I don't have that experience that you have I just have this fascination with it but also tempered by a little bit of cynicism because there's so much Malarkey that's attached to this subject well and and some of it is you know some of it is legitimate yeah and I think ethologists in general you know they want disclosure disclosure disclosure but we don't know uh you know I'm very respectful of you know when I had clearances uh I was just very respectful of those clearances because there are people who know what's on the other side of that you know it could there was one case in uh in the Air Force files that was classified I mean it was marked in the index with a star and I'm punching the card and I put an asterisk there and I I I I had to ask Dr Heek you know what happened can you tell me what happened there and he said yeah I can know there was enough time that I I can tell you this was this came from a a woman in Alaska called the Air Force because she saw what she thought was a flying sorer certainly something that should not have been there it was dark on the ground but the sky was still light and there was definitely I know a light that looked like it was under power that was flying um West now west of Alaska you know there's a coral Peninsula and there's a Soviet Union so uh she thought it was a UFO okay so it was reported as a as a UFO but it was U uh it was classified and it was called unidentified well you know that was a inside joke it was a U2 but the this was at Sunset and the the U2 was illuminated by the sun which I mean U2 is painted such a way that it shouldn't be visible from but there are some you know conditions where you're going to see it you know and uh so it it was classified and if you if you had the clearance you would read that it was unidentified it would be listed in the statistic ICS as an identified and knew exactly what it was from the beginning interesting so some things are listed as unidentified because it's so classified yeah that makes sense I have no problem with that right but you know tell me if you ask me to write computer program about it you know uh tell me if it's if it's worth my time or not I mean what was your take on the Ryan Graves stuff like Ryan Graves and the fighter pilot has started seeing these um squares within a sphere I to me that's still a question and the people I talk to are still wondering you know what is that um it there are um strange physical systems that are floating around to gather faint signals and they have very strange shapes okay so it it it could be those are balloons within Balloons with little things attached to them going back to the days of no 1947 looking for uh Atomic explosions Russian you know that's the way the Russian tests Atomic tests were detected first was with um balloons that had large antennas you know that were um the thing about the Ryan grave stuff though is the physical characteristics like in the the way it moves that these things were able to stay stationary and 100 plus knot winds I don't I don't know I have not you don't know yeah have not researched it and I wouldn't be the guy to research it them if we are being VIs visited how many different civilizations do you think are visiting us because if there's all these different characteristics that these beings have if some of them look like tall albino almost like human beings with large eyes some of them look like the Grays some of them look like dwarfs um yes and that's an an an embarrassment of riches in way right uh they um of course that opens a question you know is it a simulation and ran work has published a couple of books about that is a friend of ours and and Dr Nolan and we've had many conversations about that you know we could be living in those simulation of sorts where the people running the simulation might send whatever they want I mean it would be like a video game so all of a sudden you've got a new but that's not completely you can only go so far in fact first reaction is well you know but look at the detail we can't reproduce a detail on that scale that's true but you know wait 10 years and we'll be able to do it I mean with Quantum Computing and all so uh so uh that's not a good argument it's you know it's an okay argument now but it doesn't stand the test um the the other argument is uh you know who would be doing it and why I mean that's true that there are some strange things I mean the fact that the Moon is exactly the size to hide the sun yeah it's exactly you know 30 minutes of AR like the sun so it gives us total eclipses and it gives us a measuring tool and the Greeks knew roughly how far the Sun was with respect to the Moon they knew the the ratio of the distances they didn't get the exact distance but they they already knew that because they had done the math you know the the geometry so that's pretty strange you know I mean and also protects our Environ there are lots of things on earth that you know seem to be accidental that are just right for us to exist yes so well um but I I'm not completely happy with that that explanation nor am I I'm not happy with it but it's very compelling the the what's fascinating to me is that it is inevitable that if technology advances the way it is currently within maybe even our lifetime um or within another lifetime another hundred years we will most certainly have an artificial reality that's you cannot discern IND discernible between that and the reality we're currently experience yes so if that's inevitable you would kind of assume that perhaps it's already taken place and if it had already taking place it would probably be very similar to what we're experiencing whereas enough of it seems fake and enough of it seems scripted enough of it seems very coincidental how things line up that it almost does seem like a simulation sometimes well but there are also things that are strange but that we could research that we're doing a very bad job of researching there was I I got a phone call couple of years ago from uh a woman who had been a student at a school high level Preparatory you know school on on the east coast and I had published a book in the in the 80s early 80s about UFOs and she was head of a lecture Bureau for the kids and she thought it would be fun to bring me there to talk about flying sources because it would excite the student sure so so I went there and I gave you know a lecture at the level of you know but those are those were very bright students you know it was sort of an elite girl school and then you know she drove me back to the airport and I went home never heard from her again uh what 35 years past and she called calls me and she says uh you may not remember me but you know I I was the one who brought you to give the lecture at the the school um do you ever come to Washington and I said I do remember you uh and uh I go to Washington couple of times a year and she says well uh I'd like to tell you about an experience I had and next time time you come to Washington ring me up and when you're done with your meetings you know I'll I'll pick you up and I'll drive you to Dallas Airport and so I I I do that I call her she picks me up in know very nice Mercedes and um she says I've never forgotten your lecture uh I saw something here on the way to the airport where we're passing now that I'd like to describe to you because it reminded me of your lecture and I had never heard that anywhere else uh you know there are trees along the freeway on both sides beautiful the the freeway was dark and the sky was still blue uh she said I saw an elongated object which was like to to me twice 747 okay with with what people would probably think of as uh Port holes or Windows they were just lights along the the the thing thing was elongated and it was moving slowly minding its own business you know it must be on 10 Radars including the airport and um it was moving all over and then the sky was perfectly clear no clouds snow fog it blended with the sky I could just see the outline still it didn't speed up I could see the the lights and I could see the lights fading and then there was nothing there and I remember in your lecture in the80s you talked about things that could be going into another dimension okay but I had I thought that was interesting and you know the the kids thought it was an interesting idea um and yeah in science you know people you talk about different dimensions in physics and so on but but I had never seen it mentioned anywhere else and there it was you know this thing faded from our universe and I have no idea where it went but it didn't speed up so um they thank you very much can I publish that it said no way I'm the I'm the CEO of an international uh commercial company we work in several countries and I can't have my name associated with that now I've had probably a dozen cases like that with people from Silicon Valley people you know they uh they report on Wall Street about how their company is doing they they don't want a reporter saying are you the same guy who sees flying Sorcerers you know you're the CEO of this such and such microchip company in San Jose you know can uh so um you know they don't report it but they want they want me or some of my colleagues to know about it because they know it could contribute to the research we're doing right and uh you know Dr Nolan has had that that experience as well as you know and uh but it's not going to the Air Force it's not going to the newspapers it's not going to the New York Times now if those things can you know just jump out of our universe and go somewhere else that rewrites the whole thing you know we're not talking about propulsion the way we think about propulsion we're not talking about you know environmental environment we're not talking the passage of time you know in the same way that you know I would experience with my watch and so we're talking about something has the rules are different and we need to go up and start thinking along those rules or at least the possibility of those rules it doesn't prove that there is another Universe five minutes ahead of us but there could be and then all the papers that they publish saying there couldn't be flying Sorcerers because there isn't life you know closer than you know 2,000 light years from us and they would they would take at the speed of light it would take 2,000 years to come here well there could be another Universe 5 minutes ahead of us it would take them 5 minutes to get here okay so that would explain why we have visit ations throughout history and they look the same throughout history because you know our technology I mean this technology of this microphone didn't exist 20 years ago right you know it's a new microphone and there were no microphones you know 200 years ago there were no microphones at all right so um how come those things look the same how can we compare them to something somebody saw in the 18th century right right that shouldn't happen you know unless where technology is stuck right right right yeah that that is a fascinating aspect of it right you would expect that if you thought about how fast our technology evolves technology from 1947 from some other planet would be exponentially more advanced than what we experienced in 47 just based on how our technology evolves and you you have have to think I mean we think about an aircraft in ways completely different I mean there are things that yes it start it came from the right brothers and so on and they were speculation before on how you could fly but what an aircraft does today is is radically different the whole physics is different and we're only talking about hund some years ago which is pretty crazy you go from this thing that Wilbur and over right you know kind of like get it to take some air for a little bit to the Chinese jet which is disguising itself from radar and travels at insane speeds and then the possibility of other propulsion systems that have been kept Under Wraps to the the Harrier that stays yes and then lands like that yeah no the just the technology that we know that we're aware of over the last 200 years is pretty extraordinary and if you imagine something from somewhere that's had thousands of years to evolve past us there are a couple of things I wanted to bring up that are in this in in the book um well one is in the book The other one isn't uh what's in the book is I I've tried to continue the parapsychology experiments that were done at SRI and now at lots of other places um and I um got advice from people you said if you put yourself in certain types of conditions you you could try to manifest another form of intelligence or another form of essentially an apparition uh it's not necessarily related to UFOs but if you can do that that would teach you what you could do also with some of the encounters that people describe okay uh that the witnesses tell me so I if I'm a good scientist I should put myself in their place first and experience it myself so I did a couple of sort of mental experiments like that in my home I was alone at at the time in my home and um nothing happened and then nothing like what I expected happened and then I was asleep one night and all of a sudden I'm propelled outside of my body into another room and there is an entity there okay a massive sort of rectangular Mass you know entity clearly you know something that knows where it is and is has is thinking I'm terrified not terrified so much of of of the entity it's like a sort of black you know rectangle uh but I'm terrified of being outside my body I know people do experiments with that and there are people who can do it almost at well I've never tried to do that I think because i' I've heard you know cautions that it's very dangerous because what if you don't find your way back so I'm I'm terrified I get I find myself back in my body I get you know I sit up completely terrified crying screaming uh which is not not usual with me uh because it was just you know it it really was horrible then I rationalized it you know and that the experience wasn't supposed to happen outside of my body okay when people describe entities like Whitley striber describes it and so on there is a very strong psychic you know impact but um to me that was that was very shocking it hasn't happened before and hasn't happened since uh I'm not trying to make it happen but it I wanted to flag it and uh to get advice mostly from from other people did you feel compelled to try it again um I I I would try it again but you have not yet no no I could understand it was that terrifying if you woke up screaming I want to get counsel from you know my peers and that that's like similar to the monolith in 2001 right yeah well um you know there is a a scientist I know well in in Silicon Valley who also started a number of companies that are publicly traded now who invented the integrated circuit his name is Federico fagin he's a physicist from Italy with a PhD from Italy he came to Silicon Valley in the very early days of the transistor worked with the the initial teams in those places and uh then you know there was a problem of how can you pack those things together in smaller and smaller places and he uh you know recognized as the the father or one of the two or three people who invented the integrated Circle so uh for a long time he was celebrated in that that capacity what he didn't say is that he had seen the design outside of his body one night and that he had had multiple experiences outside of his body now this is someone you know one of the fathers of Silicon Valley I mean I recognize him as one of my mentors you know in in venture capital in high technology investment and um but now he started to I mean he's made enough money that he doesn't care anymore and he's sort of semi-retiring he doesn't like what's going on in you know right now and he's probably going to go back to Europe but the um there are a number of of people like that whose names are in the Wall Street Journal or in the New York Times who've achieved something but they you find out that they also had and they they experimented with it in his case he experimented systematically with you know the ability to go out of his body and and uh and acquire this information from some other source well or a vision there isn't much uh there are a couple of books that mention you know steps you can take but it seems to be pretty much up to the individual uh in my case I certainly wasn't trying to do that you know it just I was precipitated instantly to the place where this this being was okay um there were also a couple of things that I never wrote about not that I wanted to hide them or was afraid of them but I wanted to understand the context of of it before I did and I I talk about it in this book um in the late 70s my my wife my first wife shanine was a psychologist and we we bought a place in the country in in Northern California place in the in the Redwood Forest because I wanted to re experience the pleasure of doing astronomy as an amateur you know small telescope and so on but I don't care I want to look at the moon I want to look at planets I want to look at melanic you know clouds if I can or whatever and the um so we we built this we had a there was a a house there but I I built an observatory in the middle of the forest our closest neighbor this was a redwood forest you know un uh uncluttered and you know unspoiled pretty much inaccessible and you know if you didn't own the land you know you couldn't go cut the trees so those were there were some old redwoods there and some and the closest neighbor was about 34 miles away 3/4 of a mile away and uh I felt this is going to be like a discontinuity in the forest and maybe it will attract whatever is out there and maybe will see UFOs we never did we own the place for 18 years would go there with our kids and was wonderful and um but we went there not every weekend but pretty much you know as much as we could and then uh our kids grew up and moved away we moved back to the city we sold the place the last night uh of course we had cleaned the place we had we were selling it to friends of ours were our neighbors had a winery they want to they wanted to expand the land uh we had some flat land they wanted to use for the wine and they wanted the house and so but the last night everything has been moved out my wife is still there because we had the a car that was going to be taken back to the city and she had her car and she was ready to go middle of the night there's a light that's filling the the house no by then there are no curtains nothing okay they filling their the house blue you know sort of UV white blue ultraviolet light very uh she goes outside and the the the light is making everything clear the the forest everything else and and um it's moving it doesn't have a specific shape you know it it's like a mass of light with light all around it it's going down the driveway which is a dirt dirt road to the main road to the to the small Road and it's just moving along politely in front of the ranch and down no down to the stream has no business being there you know no sound it's not a car it's not a car on fire fire is not the the the light again everything is the all the details are there you can see the the grass you can see the leaves on the trees and why that maybe you called for it and it took a long time to get there well yeah or they just wanted to say goodbye or I maybe maybe they were there the whole time and they just didn't want to show themselves so let's put on a show for Jac there was one time we used to sleep in the observatory there was a small bedroom there with old books that I had collected and she saw she woke up and she saw a light that was like what people describe small light she didn't see where it came from or where it went but it was moving along the the walls were two of them and then it vanished you know uh she woke me up but I had not seen it it was gone by the time I woke up I talked to a man when I went to visit Skinwalker Ranch there's a few people wanted to talk to us but then once we brought the cameras out only one guy wanted to talk to us and he was very rational very normal guy who lived in a modest home and he told the story about this ball of light that entered through his home and it seemed to be somehow or another aware that he was there he felt like it was if not a living thing controlled by something that was alive and then it went through the walls and disappeared again he said it was in his home for a few minutes it's moving around well as you know uh Mr Bigalow has done experiments of his own with lights and with with things like that putting interesting objects in certain places that are in closed and and seeing if something is going to look around or move them and so on so very you know very interesting well it's such a fascinating subject and uh like I said I really appreciate all your years of research and the way you're so measured and so objective in your analysis it really helps people like myself get at least some sort of an understanding of what's going on well uh what's important is to have guidelines you know for research so yes I I Look to some of the people you have here you know who've done some other exploring and I try to learn from them and sort of refine my my my own criteria yeah well thank you very much um and your book again uh the one that's available now this is uh Forbidden Science 6 this is the sixth of these books and and um scattered castles is a uh it's not classified but it comes from the classified world it's a repository of classified projects so if if you're cleared at a certain level you want to know what what what else is there that you would have access to or where certain things are being sent to you and you're authorized to you could look up the the names of those projects it wouldn't tell you what the project does unless you're cleared for it but it would tell you that there is a project and so those names of secret projects are picked by a computer they are random and I thought this was funny you know scattered castles is sort of like you know all these files about strange UFOs and strange creatures well I can't wait to read it uh thank you so much thank you for everything it was great having dinner with you and how put off and everybody else last night as well so I really appreciate you very much thank you bye everybody [Music]