Lt. Tim McMillan (ret.) on Special Access Programs (SAPs) | The Black Vault LIVE (07/23/2019)

Transcript

all right Tim I think we might become and are you uh you ready to go live here yeah dude I'm stuck this is exciting I I hear you tweeted out if we get a hundred thousand streamers I'm gonna be getting a face tattoo yes I I apologize for that in case you weren't hoping to get a face tattoo well however I think I had some suggestions man I I think that I'm in for it now so I'll watch these numbers man if we get if we get up there I'll definitely I'll definitely talk about it towards the end of the show but how you been good man how about you it's good it's good to actually see ya I'm sorry that you can't see me that's a technical thing I'm gonna have to work out but it is broadcasting out there live on YouTube I'll keep a watch on the chat too I'm sure anybody who is listening in may have a couple of questions but if you're not familiar with Tim tim has been on the black vault radio show the podcast it was a fun discussion about all sorts of things but primarily his research and work of getting the police records on the Bob Lazar raid that we saw on Jeremy corbels film so now you're back I appreciate you kind of being a little bit of a guinea pig today so so thank you for that but no my honor no I well the honors mine and simply because and I've said this before you are one of the very few that I do highly respect when it comes to research investigation you've done some things that have been quite impressive the Bob Lazar digging up those documents that really no one else that I saw did is definitely worthy of noting but recently you published an article on the war zone now that's Tyler rogue away cited got a couple contributing writers on there but primarily Tyler rogue away a couple others now your name popped up on my feed you did an amazing let me go ahead and pull it up here for those watching live this was the article that she wrote special access programs and the Pentagon's ecosystems of secrecy so you did this deep dive into special access programs or saps so why don't we start there why don't you tell me tell me a little bit about what made you write about special access programs of what in the world are they sure yeah you know first of all John it's the same thing as the Bob Lazar stuff I just hate mysteries or not knowing anything and so you know the drive to want to solve things and just understand them is what propels me to do anything I appreciate that the kind words in terms of vestigation it's really just you just have to repeat that and my wife later because she says I'm crazy it's just a zealousness to try to learn what's going on hate mysteries but yeah so I dove into the special access programs more commonly referred to as saps dark and ominous I think in all sectors but extremely not well understood for good reason I mean I found out this process of trying to understand exactly what all is contained in them yeah it was a it was a couple weeks lengthy endeavor and hundreds of pages of reading DoD policy and talking to people who have been part of the government structure and even taking a class I took a class on saps that is the same class that's introductory to people who are actually involved in these programs but the short of it all of this bureaucracy pertains to special access programs which are specialized government programs and how they're really a set of protocols for how the government maintained security in integrity for classified information that can go up to we're talking about some of the biggest secrets in the world and there's a lot of talk about them just really ultimately being able to get away with anything and everything when it comes to special access programs this is highly talked about not only in the UFO arena but quite a few different government secrets and conspiracies where once you get special access program status ultimately you can do whatever you want in your research is there truth to that well you know it's kind of like everything else in life you know because of their secretive nature it's largely myth the size but at the same time there's some legitimacy baton why those myths exist and you know the bottom line of them is that they involve a considerable amount of money in the 2019 budget the request for the DoD 81 billion of that relates to special access programs are dark money secret classified programs so we're done about some very lucrative endeavors and there's varying levels to it and like I said it's extremely complex thing what we can break them down here if you want to and understand how they function but yeah there there is some myths to it there's oversight to it but there are some some real-world scary examples that go into it and it is indeed we're we're talking about a very obscure world where some of the greatest technological advances are occur but then some some kind of scary things and and they are very limited exclusive clubs that if you you don't have a need-to-know you don't get involved in and to some degree no matter what your rank title or who you are in the government you don't have access to it what's amazing in the article that I noticed right off the bat and I've been doing this a long time with documents and getting into classifications and secrecy and stuff like that but you went into a lot of history and as much for someone like me I'll be blunt you think you get something or understand something and then I saw the work you did and I went oh my god I really don't have a clue you know I mean you really did this deep dive so let me ask you to just kind of start a little bit with the history let everybody know how did special access programs come about and you know why what was the reason for him sure well I appreciate that it was a pretty media article but I wanted to try to give people a really substantial resource that gives you the overview the history how they functioned their structure and everything the history of SAP's is interesting it because it does contribute to kind of their dubious nature this this kind of ominous nature behind them and you know I guess ultimately they could could could see you could say they start back to 1940 when those security classifications were initially put in place however in terms of saps really the purge interrater comes in 1953 and this is when president dwight d eisenhower by executive order ends up removing roughly 30 30 different government entities who previously held the ability to classify information and limits that only to agencies within the executive branch and so now you've got a whole bunch of people who no longer can classify materials now if going back and looking in that original executive order frankly I think a lot of people would kind of chuckle and wonder why some agencies at the time had classification Authority I can't answer that because some of them there was one relating to the purchasing of products from disabled people or deaf and blind persons I don't know why they had classification Authority but prior to 1953 they did but when President Eisenhower removed this ability some of the concern within the Pentagon was that there it removed a there were four security classifications at the time one of them being restricted and along with top-secret secret and classified but those last three the three that we have today and so when when restricted was removed from the classification system proud of this restricted had had functioned in it as a de facto SAP program which means they could restrict it to certain individuals no matter what security classification is if you didn't have a need-to-know you wouldn't get in well they no longer had that ability anymore at least officially and so contrary to it being a directed from the commander-in-chief agencies throughout the Department of Defense began to unofficially use restricted classifications on documents and I mean including putting stamps labeling them all sorts of different things and these were yeah unofficial saps the early origins of them that there was no policy there was an in fact four contradictory to the president's executive order and this system went on for a while I went on until 1973 actually and ironically it would be the Watergate scandal that brought out in 1973 during a lot of hearings and just basically government oversight became a huge deal after Watergate in 1973 the committee for government operations brought to light in a hearing that there's a ton of branches within government that both had classification Authority and did who were stamping restricted on their materials and classifying them in large part from each other not just the American people but this is segmenting it from each other determining who who can and can't have it and so after this comes to light and you'll see with the entire SAP history process I guess it's much with anything like why do you have the warning labels on shampoo is because somebody's tried to drink it well they usually don't make policy changes until something goes wrong and so it's only after this that people really the idea that there was an unofficial system of secrecy largely kind of a scary conspiracy theory secrecy though and and I did mention in the article because it's ironic I have there's nothing that I have that says that that specifically pertains to it but in 1973 when this all came to light those also when MKULTRA MKULTRA that which you have been able to buy considerable number documents on the CIA mind control just a great number of things that we're fortunate you've been able to bring to light and a lot that we probably will never know supposed to those those files were burned that ran from 1953 to 1973 yeah the same time yeah mm-hmm I run a coincidence yeah I don't know let me ask you with a lot of those special access programs were they just trying to essentially hide what they were doing that way there was no congressional oversight presidential oversight stuff like that I mean is that really the motivation or was there just a need for a higher classification you know John I can't answer that you know because that honestly is probably going to take a bigger delve into history though I think that would be fascinating to look into sure I don't know I would say there's a multitude of reasons other than the overarching things that that was the concern was that there was no longer a classification that could possibly restrict people who held top-secret clearances from access to certain secret or top secret information that maybe those working on it or those going with it didn't want them to know about and again I think this is largely is also people have to remember the historical context here we're talking about right in the beginning and some of the during those years some of the real height of the Cold War times were some of the 1960s u2 sr-71 you know Cuban Missile Crisis so there's a lot going on the protection of intelligence and information is critical and frankly you had considerable number of people within government who didn't trust each other yeah what all that pertained to I think would be fascinating to find out but as gosh you you could tell anybody and trying to get those MKULTRA documents you know it does fall in a dark time when even the dark programs have been buried or just some gaze is literally burned yeah what I'm what I want to go back to is you you were talking about things just simply being burned did you find did you find in your research a lot of indication of that that because the years that you're talking about were prior to the Freedom of Information Act and I think a lot of people often overlook the fact that when you're dealing with pre Freedom of Information Act years a lot of that information they never thought would see the light of day so burning it like the MKULTRA documents shredding them beyond recognition was sadly commonplace so in your research did we lose a lot of that history I mean is this something that we probably will never discover you know I couldn't say that for sure it just wasn't and it wasn't any a it's an area that I'm very interested in and and I think would be one to really look into but in just relation to the special access programs I didn't spend too too much time and there just because it was a good understanding of how they evolved but you're right there's just you know a remarkable number amount of information I think it's interesting that you know you consider prior to 1940 there weren't any security classifications so everybody's always had secrets there's always been state secrets so how was that maintained yeah you know I think that's why as I've said many times that's why I'm a big advocate of work you do because even though that four-year system is in place now it does involve us using it yeah so that we don't lose it now obviously this is something still around today right I mean special special access programs just to kind of put that out there for those listeners that may not be aware now let's talk a little bit before we move on to specific special access programs that you may have researched talk a little bit more about the highest level you went into great detail about this in your article about the different levels of secrecy which I know you've already briefly mentioned but when you get to top secret then all of a sudden you kind of get into a different ballgame talk to everybody about that level when you get to the top what do we what are we talking about sure but real quick I just want to make sure that I mentioned because I kind of left out an important point they okay he's in 1973 I said that this is where the restricted labels came to light that was largely a mute point because in 1972 the year prior to Richard Nixon in the Watergate scandal coming to light Richard Nixon had signed an executive order which set the framework for now special access programs were an official entity there was an official means in which you could hide information from the public and I noted in the article again part of those ironies and I don't mean to defeat conspiracy because I don't there's nothing that I know that has anything to do with it but it was done you know a month or two before the Watergate break-in to the Democratic national office there in DC so you know it's kind of ironic that a systems to save roommate information but so that's when they were set up in you want to make sure clarified that in 72 but yes in terms of it's important for people to realize because we hear saps all the time special access programs are not security classifications okay it is a set of protocols that is often misconstrued I think it just misunderstood because it is a confusing process when we're talking about the security levels and I think that's what you're referencing right John yes mm-hmm just because and and let me just preface it on why I'm asking is we see a lot of this and television and movies and you know people talk about things like oh it's above top secret and yeah I want to ask you instead of giving my opinion on it but I mean talk about those top levels of secrecy and can you go quote-unquote above top secret sure no you can't go above top secret that is where special access programs come in but to explain those classifications you're right there's three different classification levels which are and this is you know these three were kind of set in place and and named and everything the most recent executive order we have because there's been numerous after 72 was by President Obama in 2013 is top secret secret and confidential what determines whether something is classified one of those three I found interesting because I think we've heard it and it's like yeah it means it's really special or maybe it's a little special it actually pertains to how big of a danger it is to national security should this information get out and so for top secret it is exceptionally grave danger could be caused to national security secret it is that serious damage could occur and confidential is I think it probably hurt us and there so it's always it pertains to how big of a threat to national security it is that determines what security classification it gets into on top of that now I ask you today not on top of that is next to that and this is a whole other kind of ballgame and as as you're well aware government it has many moving parts if people have ever heard the terms Q clearance or ell clearance those are not separate necessarily security clearances per se from top secret or secret rather those are have the same classification Authority is you know Q clearance would be top secret l clearance would be secret however those are found in components that have to relate to the Department of Energy they were established by the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 so they're synonymous with secret and top secret they're not separate classifications they just pertain to you if you were working on something within the Department of Energy you would have a Q or L clearance whereas if you're in a different component of the Department of Defense or government you may have a top secret or secret clearance okay there is yet there's there's no above top secret that's what PSAPs are used for and which I'm sure we'll get into you know one of the things that I noted in there because I've heard you have heard it in movies and stuff they so-and-so at a Yankee white clearance and you'll hear all these different things you know a lot of those terms in particular Yankee white that's just an administrative nickname used by persons in the executive branch a Yankee white relates to the background check it's performed on someone who works within close proximity the pros of the United States so the vice-president United States okay so they have to go a separate more intensive background check separate clearance it's just a separate pipe they would still have a top-secret clearance so what works um let's get into the examples of some of the special access programs that you had research for the article one particular which I found fascinating was was yellow fruit but talk about some of the specifics now like what what makes that special access program a SAP and and and obviously we're probably talking about some pretty classified stuff sure yeah and if you would like to uh you know if you'd like to get into yellow fruit yeah a fruit wiki will bring us up to date and kind of how we are in modern saps if you you want me to go into yellow fruit a little bit and then we can get into the different types of apps and all this fun stuff going into Funston yeah yeah because we haven't talked about the acknowledged and unacknowledged but yeah let's get to some of the specifics on you know what whatsapp programs you you researched and kind of uncovered or found yourself sure yeah cuz unacknowledged and knowledge taps didn't exist in yellow yellow fruit is a fascinating case it is which used numerous times when I took the Center for defense and security an excellent course on sap yeah it's it's referenced in a bunch of literature it's common in it since the days of yellow fruit since yellow fruit since yellow fruit is a reference point to what all can go bad and why all of these new regulations we see in modern times came about remarkably it's pretty difficult to find any information about yellow fruit and I actually had to comb through some 1980s news articles and look through some War College thesis to get any information on it it's it's this so what we know about yellow fruit is probably not at all I always assuredly not everything but yellow fruit is a name for a SAP that is really that the SAPS that everybody thinks about in the nightmares and at the time it wasn't termed a special access program it was a black program this is what they were called in the DoD yellow fruit was established through the newly formed Special Operations Command don't you just in established about a in 1981 after the failed Iran hostage rescue decided they needed Special Operations Command to combine forces and so the newly formed Special Operations Command decided to establish their own in a DoD special access program that would assist in Central American missions called yellow furred and this is a true dark black program yellow fruit was headed by Lieutenant Colonel Dale Duncan who for all intents purposes everybody thought retired outside of the commander of the Special Operations Command and roughly about eight to 12 individuals who were a part of yellow fruit this was they thought Colonel Duncan had retired and had to started a business security international a private contracting firm you know complex about 15 minutes from the Pentagon and no one had any idea this was actually a government funded and running operation and you know more importantly and here and I touch on it a little bit later and we can go in a little more about this but this only relates to the Department of Defense programs we in the intelligence community that's a different deal and so with yellow fruit we're talking about these were army personnel these weren't CIA these weren't you know spies covert spies that we think of in a traditional sense though they were career intelligence officers and so what all they did in yellow fruit we're not sure however in 1983 just kind of a very random Pentagon audit turned up some odd discrepancies in budget accounting figures and in in terms of receipts they were turned in for certain expenditures not matching up again because there's been so little official information that's come out the newspaper articles it can be trusted I mean mention things such as $50,000 receipts for like discs calculators some really crazy stuff and the the jokes you do hear on movies that actually are true getting $20,000 for a hammer and $50,000 for a toilet okay so they've actually stems from something yes you had yes not you know oftentimes it's joked as if that at a formalised level somebody signed off on that but rather this would involve people trying to turn in receipts saying they paid that much and so this would and and important to note yellow furred only ran for a year so he got discovered rather quickly and during this audit largely probably because the money that was being turned into discrepancies and it would ultimately it's it's remarkable that so little information is involved with it because the FBI would get involved the ultimate outcome would involve Lieutenant Colonel Dale Duncan who was heading the program several other people inside the program and James long Hoffer who was the commander of Special Operations Command all being court-martialed and indicted on a host of federal charges and in fact Lieutenant Colonel Dale Duncan was ended up being convicted had his conviction overturned be originally was sentenced a years in federal prison it's a really and like I said it this is one that I definitely am NOT going to give up on and try to get more info because I think it's a fascinating case because of what all that could have gone on it and I tell you they said we don't know there was during there the information that you can find from the late 80's articles about this there was ties to Iran Contra money here there was even mentions of Lieutenant Colonel Duncan you know trying to set up other pentagon military commanders he didn't like with prostitutes and hid cameras I mean wow really was a nightmare yeah yeah and I mean and on top of that just maybe it wasn't clear they you know they're those crazy receipts they were turning in that were related to stolen money that was being used either personally or you know people speculated it could be related to iran-contra yeah Swiss bank accounts I mean you name it in terms of the corruption game and it could have been involved there again though it's just interesting and that's why I always tell people it's okay to ask questions scrutinize things you stuff like oil or push accountability because with yellow fruit though it I said it was discovered 1983 it went to the late 80s to these trials started going in and little news started trickling out that we don't see finally the ball rolling by the early 90s and we're a considerable amount of oversight what was put in place and it largely had to do with embarrassment yeah you know this stuff come out in the news because of the most astonishing thing that I found with yellow fruit is that at the time it was discovered top Pentagon brass we were shocked because you had the Secretary of Defense the Undersecretary of Defense the Joint Chiefs except none of these people even knew yellow fruit was going on never been briefed it outside the top of the top that should know just to clarify just had no idea correct Wow they had no idea what's going on I mean that is indeed and that's why I say when every myth you know has some truth here is that when people talk about these really scary dark programs that are super rope I mean this was it now that is it's rope your elected leadership has no clue and and there was no system of oversight in place at the time either and so you say you said I want to jump in real quick you say at the time did did that element of SAP's change obviously we established stops are still around but the deep dark the top brass has no idea what these lieutenant Colonel's are doing is that still a possibility or did they set things in motion to thwart that they put in a huge system of oversight rules and regulations and so they definitely made it in place where the top brass can't know now we'll get into I imagine towards the end that the real in attic saps that everybody is heard before the wave steps but for the most part no I mean there's a huge just number of oversight rules regulations who oversees what designated authority between different places and that's you know when I was going through this I mean it I think between all the DoD regulations just on PSAPs now it's about a hundred and thirty-five pages but then each branch has their own and you have industrial partners so I mean there's easily 2000 different pages of now rules regulations and everything depending on what component it is that pertain to PSAPs none of that existed prior to yellow fruit and that is why it's used as this big example of how it changed the SAP game if you will because people were embarrassed you had leadership that had no clue this was going on yeah and so that it has put in a system of oversight and and formalized kind of what is how saps function the program two different types of steps the kind of traction well the last thing I want you to deal with and then we're gonna move on to a little bit of a different topic but dealing with with PSAPs as well is the unacknowledged versus acknowledged SAP can you explain a little bit of the difference there just to give everybody an idea sure yeah no I'm sure people are probably interested in that because that is that's you know the way it works is and this is you know getting in the weeds to it but every special access program it falls under two types of classification authorities our designations I should say and that is acknowledged or unacknowledged now to the start of that and this is what I mean about how they formalized everything all PSAPs come from a specific category and it stays in that category office whether they're acquisition PSAPs intelligence PSAPs and operations and support staffs acquisition PSAPs make up roughly about 80 percent of all special access programs whether people realize it or not again be more than happy to go in detail if you want to this only pertains the Department of Defense from the intelligence community those are specialized compartment our skinny sensitive compartmentalized information programs total different ball of wax okay au different bureaucratic jungle and but with the Department of Defense this is a acquisition PSAPs make up the bulk of them and so when a SAP is established it can be either acknowledged or unacknowledged and acknowledged SAP or PSAPs that their existence and purpose are known however certain details within them may not be known one of the great examples I think is supposed to because it's it's so prevalent right now is the the b21 the replacement to the b-2 stealth bomber that's an acknowledged set okay you know it exists we've seen pictures of it we know that there they're building hangars they're getting prepared for it we know it's there the actual components that are involved in it that is being protected and so that's an acknowledge that we can see the funding for that now an unacknowledged SAP is just like it sounds an unacknowledged PSAPs are their purpose or carefully guarded and their entire existence may be denied to everyone except for a spare a few who aren't in the program and in including the funding for unacknowledged PSAPs can be either hidden which you know termed classified in Alba in a budget line item of an EOD budget or they can be flat-out misrepresented and hidden into another component somehow as to not show off where that money's been going to and just again is the name it sounds you know when it comes to unacknowledged PSAPs someone who is not a part of that SAP if you ask about it if you said hey what's going on with you no project whatever don't know what you're talking about yeah it doesn't exist it is completely unintuitive classifications above top secret however how a sap is segmented how it is compartmentalized it can definitely limit narrow the scope of who's involved and that is the waived but you can have waived unacknowledged steps the term waived comes from the fact that it is by the Secretary of Defense being waived from all of the laws and oversight and reporting procedures as unacknowledged and acknowledged steps so waived PSAPs are exempt from a normal reporting procedures a waived SAP narrows the scope as to who knows about it who's allowed to know about it and the oversight that's gone unto it and these are darkest of dark of programs when it comes to waves out because with the other PSAPs you have your elected leadership with with acknowledged saps your elected leaders know about them in fact they have to prove them they vote on them with your unacknowledged saps that scope is nowhere excuse me narrowed to your intelligence and defense and oversight committees but you still have leadership that is able to oversee these it goes the waved unacknowledged saps that scope in terms of elected leadership is narrowed down to just the the gang of eight which is the name used for the the chair and they vice chairs of the House Intelligence armed service committees and the Senate minority majority and minority leaders of both the house is set to have eight people a bipartisan group of elected leadership that can have access to waive saps now in going through and trying to determine exactly that over cider and waved I'll be honest with you John even that is difficult it's remarkable I mentioned there's about a hundred thirty-five pages of DoD policies on saps about two paragraphs is on rave saps I mean it best I could tell you know they nearer you you could technically narrow the scope of a wave sap to the point where the only access approval authorities which is the people who designate who can and can't know about a program it can be narrowed as tightly as the president United States the Secretary of Defense the Undersecretary of Defense and the three different under secretaries of defense for intelligence acquisition and policy so it's a very tight niche group on whom is aware of all of this let me ask you just to kind of either confirm a myth or dispel a myth and that is the fact that the sitting president of the United States would either have free rein access to knowledge about this and and this and that is there truth behind the fact that things are even above the president's head not by the United States federal law no it would be illegal President United States has access and to everything except for US census records which technically not even classified but the only the person making a census record has access to their census record but the idea that the president United States can be lawfully withheld from information is incorrect you know can we speculate here does the president have to know what to ask for I don't I don't have an answer to that yeah and I think that I think you're nailing it though because I think that the sitting president yeah he may have unfettered access in the eyes of the law but you don't know what you don't know and that's that to me is such a fascinating aspect to all of this in that again you just don't know what you don't know so the federal law may be on his side for him to you know have access but he's not briefed on every single line item of every single agency every single day so if he just doesn't know I would think that some of these agencies and agencies would just say hey you know what what he or she doesn't know that sitting in the Oval Office let's not worry about it do you find that maybe that's a huge possibility that the president may have access but if he doesn't know about it or she doesn't know about it then they're out of luck you know John is it a possibility absolutely and the reason I say that is because I tried I tried to get an answer that very question and including it's not just the president but as I mentioned with with wave steps that's limited to the gang of eight and of so there's eight different elected leadership but I reached out to the Secretary of Defense spokespersons and the Pentagon and try to get an answer and say to find out is that are they briefed automatically on an annual basis as you are with other PSAPs or must they request a briefing because like you said how can you request what you don't know yeah you know as a new president comes in how does he know and nobody could answer that for me or would I think there's an aspect of plausible deniability as well on the side of the agency that if you just tell the president hey look we could have briefed you any time if you asked you know but if they don't know to ask that's just that hey well we didn't know you would want to know but you had access to it in lieu of the reality that they're just keeping it from the United States president so to me again it there's something in the chat room about does the president have a need to know that to me is just an absolute fascinating aspect to this entire debate on whether or not the president in the eyes of the law who cares but would they have the right or the need to know the right possibly the need probably not and so they just don't offer it to them the hours kind of flying by and I might steal you a little bit more than than the scheduled hour if that's cool sure yeah one thing that I want to kind of shift gears on is something that the last time you and I chatted obviously you have a interest in UFOs and you have a kind of a thirst for the truth you know what what is out there what what is real what is not and in the last month or so however long it's been I forget the exact date but the Wilson memo leaked that came out obviously starts touching on saps and special access programs and essentially what you've been dissecting here for the last 40 minutes or so I assume the answer is yes but I think you've looked into these memos correct yes that is correct I have and as particularly because like you said somebody asked me was the Wilson memos what inspired me to work in saps and that's not true however indeed these Wilson memos are I mean they'd center around these special access programs that is the crux oh yeah I didn't take a look so you looked at them let the audience for those who have no idea what we might be talking about can you just give a brief overview of what the heck these leaked documents are sure war yeah these are documents that are allegedly and I say allegedly because I will say right up front I can't I don't know what the provenance of them or the credibility of them are are they real or not I don't know although as we'll get into even if they are real there could not be as exciting as people think but these are supposedly a set of notes that was either leaked taken I believe it may have come out that they came from the archive notes of the late Edgar Mitchell between a meeting between Eric Davis dr. Davis who is with earth tech international with how put off he's been involved in needs you know involved in this kind of topic arena for a while and Admiral Thomas Wilson who was lengthy military career with the Navy but ultimately was the deputy director and then eventually the director of the Defense Intelligence Agency up until 2002 and so this is supposedly a meeting between the two of them that pertains to Wilson while as the deputy director director there was a deputy director of the DIA his pursuit to try to uncover a special access or multiple special access programs that were involved in the reverse engineering or involved in extraterrestrial technology that had been captured seized whatever the case may be that is the crux of these memos and so there appeared to be if they were authentic there dr. Davis is transcription of their conversation that day when you first saw these records and they appeared online I was I laughed because it was it was so convenient for the timing of them when you look at who was involved what was kind of hitting the the headlines at the time we may get into that later but I'm curious more of your thoughts on when you saw them first take take away the knowledge that you have extensive knowledge of SAP's and really kind of digging in did you think they were real fake or weren't sure I would say my initial opinion is they weren't real yeah I didn't I didn't think that they were real documents and I think some of that may be biased by some of the information it came out how they came about I mean there was some information that some individuals who may have had these documents in their possession for eight months or a year before releasing to the public and so I still ask him wonder and I have reached out to some of the people who have made those claims and he won't answer for me why wait that long I believe the answer that's been publicly provided is they waited that long in order to verify their authenticity but if that is indeed the case I have yet to see anybody provide any verification of authenticity other than I verified them and yes they're true and but the supporting documents that verifies or establishes how they verified that I haven't seen yeah that's you know and I believed daughter Davis has been reached out to and he has declined to make comment I that again makes me laugh just because I don't if they're real let's just say it you know let's just get it out on the table it should be noted that the Wilson story has been around a little bit we did see a prominent figure in the UFO field that we haven't seen in a while controversial to say the least but dr. Steven Greer kind of resurfaced after these things came about he was the one that kind of surfaced the Wilson doc excuse me the Wilson story I should say Billy Cox a journalist from Florida I really like Billy I've known Billy a long long time and I recall that he did an article reached out to Wilson and Wilson said now now that that you know obviously never took place the Eric Davis comment obviously no comment so now it's like okay so here yet again we have a document in the UFO field that we just have no provenance of we have no authenticity to support other than you know some some guesses I have seen some in the UFO field just talked about now this is absolute truth that this is undeniable now you've approached this I think in a little bit of a different way because you have knowledge that really not many people have I mean again for all of those who haven't seen it and I will link it in the YouTube channel if it's not there already I believe I did I'm sorry I can't check on the fly here but I believe it's in the in the description if not I'll make sure it is after the livestream but check out Tim's article on special access programs because what we dealt with is very much just the tip of the iceberg so how you approached it is with knowledge and a background that again not many people go into meaning that they don't have the expertise on saps and so on that you do so let's get into the content themselves did you start challenging what you were reading in these notes and and and kind of understanding okay I know for a fact saps work like this do the notes support reality or are they way off well and you're absolutely right to two things when I went through them one was the knowledge of the kind of the SAPS program being fresh on there and the other side of it is I can't help the fact and I may have discussed this last time we spoke John that you know my background for part of what I did in law enforcement I was certified in paper were Criminal Investigative analysts and so I I'm my background academically is in psychology and so from a behavioral standpoint I always scrutinize these types of things as a behavior is even consistent with the already inherently inconsistent way human beings behave and so you know one of the things as you touched on is here we have another document that no provenance can be established and it's one of these ones you either believe it or don't be I mean it's it's a document belief you have to decide whether you dis or believe it or believe it is there's a considerable number of things that are in it that really just play right into that that trope including the fact that you know from the onset I noticed that this meeting was supposedly took place at October 2002 hugely convenient because Admiral Thomas Wilson had retired from the Navy and as the director of the DIA roughly two months prior to this and so whereas you know you had he still been in the federal government we might even have a for you some information such as executive calendar or something that would have some supporting document that he was even in Las Vegas at the time because this meeting supposedly took place you know right out of a spy movie behind the special projects building of EG&G for those who don't know especially a special project building there outside of McCarran Airport that's the contractor who well was running the jannat air flights at the time you know they have since been purchased by urs and if i gng no longer exist united research services does and in fact october 2002 they had been purchased a couple months prior and but their meeting behind this building and you know it's it's really convenient you know it's it's exciting with that said you know before we get into the SAP stuff I will say it was interesting that I noticed very early on to me there was a lot of telling information is that in the in the notes it describes dr. Davis allegedly saying to go to the special projects building which is at Greer and paradise that would lead me to believe if I had to speculate there that who wrote them which dr.

Davis indeed does have in spirits considerable has been considerable time living in around Las Vegas area but somebody is familiar with the area because it's actually not at Greer in Paradise it's right there by the access road that goes into the McCarran Airport which curves around past the Sunset Strip it's just south of there it does go into Paradise Road once you get into Paradise Nevada which is where the actual airport is however that road is not technically paralyzed so if you're gonna make that up and look at a map you probably would have used that road I believe it's called like McCarran International Airport freeway something that okay either way you probably wouldn't use paradise and so that was interesting to me so you're saying there's a kind of a nugget of truth there dear well there's a nugget from a behavioral analyst standpoint that I would say as a detail that would be included by someone who's familiar with the Las Vegas area okay and and therefore would be more inept to use the common colloquial it that that that road is probably called paradise though house colloquial and but if you were if you were I who are not in Vegas or if we've not frequented the area and we just pulled up a map and we went oh okay we knew that the EG&G special projects building he's right there is family the corner right there Greer Road 811 Greer wrote hope urs doesn't get mad about me telling that then we might we probably wouldn't it would be hard-pressed to pick out paradise God unless you knew okay I just that was enough that I thought was just interesting it doesn't mean anything other than whoever wrote a little bit of knowledge there great okay probably familiar with the area okay going through there you know there's there's considerable number names being dropped and everything and and they're all former you know people it makes it hard to corroborate type thing but indeed the crux of it gets into the holes really the SAP process and a lot of what the article that I was dealing with and it has to do with amaura Wilson wanting to try to find access to a special you know special access program that is potentially dealing with alien technology extraterrestrial technology and so you know these notes details the conversation back and forth where dr. vision Emma Wilson allegedly are talking about his pursuit in finding this information out and when she finds through some some interesting budget documents out of the office of the undersecretary of Defense acquisitions and Technology where this potential program would be okay you know there's another little nugget in there and it comes from when it's being discussed with the Undersecretary of defense for acquisitions and technology and the the SAP Oversight Committee and it comes to the fact where they mentioned actually specifically Brigadier General Mike cos dick they mentions him you know being both the executive secretary of the SAP Oversight Committee but also the director of the SAP cord SAP coordination office initially when I saw that I thought that's a little interesting because there is no such place as the SAP coordination office it's the SAP central office yeah and each each component has a cassette central office in each office and the Under Secretary of Defense has one okay and so and I I did some searching because I turned I said I just got done reading for hundreds of pages of manuals that name doesn't come up but I did find in 1994 some memos that have to deal with general caustic and and they mentioned this SAP coordination office with him indeed in fact a lot of the names and details from the SAP that committee matched well with this this was a SAP Oversight Committee bulletin published in 1994 I was able to find it through Steven after good sight the freedom of American Federation for American scientists great resource and then through that and having to go back because that's the one thing is it's hard to find the old policies that indeed during the during the early to mid 90s and impossibly up to night 2013 I'm not sure when it changed there was a SAP coordination office in the SAP Oversight Committee and so this was a matrix of three OSD level SAP central offices okay opposition intelligence operations and support and they helped coordinate saps for the Oversight Committee confused yet yeah it is it is it's a confusing process I guess that the point of saying all of that is that it did exist it is an interesting detail because again if you're going to hoax it yeah do a little work then do a little work to find that yeah it sounds like they're mallets it sounds like there was a lot of work put into this if they're if it's a hoe I mean I I I lean towards it is it sounds like you might lean towards it is but not to speak for you but there's a lot of truth like so somebody had a little bit of knowledge behind what they were putting on these notes whether or not Eric Davis wrote them originally or there was truth to the notes but somebody obviously knew a little bit about what they were talking about sure and in fact that's the components that are being named in the different areas with this app the different programs of different components of a special access program and when they're talking about the SAP Oversight Committee when they're talking about the senior review group which provides principal support to the Oversight Committee that's all of it that's all accurate that is all part of the programs and those are all obscure little little intricacies that are in this program and process so yeah somebody would have had to put in a little bit of work and then when allegedly Admiral Wilson says you know that there was no budget info kept on these particular programs he was seeking well then that would do they were separate for records for auditing purposes that well that would tell us that if this was real it was a unacknowledged though potentially waived unacknowledged Sam so it's not a knowledge set but you know I think we probably could against that one you didn't need me to tell you that because if there was an acknowledged SAP like the b21 bomber that had to do with alien technology yeah that might be a big deal interesting so so I asked you when you first saw the documents you know how you felt and what your ideas were I believe the chronology was you saw them first had those thoughts did all the research on SAP learned a lot more then started revisiting you found some pretty interesting things that I've never heard others talk about so so the kudos to you for really digging into those details although I haven't listened to everybody's thoughts on the Wilson memo that's a lot of hard work that you're doing there so now fast forward from the beginning in your thoughts to now the knowledge that you have of SAP's and kind of revisiting the memos if you will any chance they're real do you think um well there's a chance of anything if you want me to give you my opinion which I know a lot of times people don't want to do but I will caveat it is just my opinion I think there's aspects of them that make me think that they are inaccurate mm-hmm now what I mean by inaccurate that's not saying that somebody has purposely hoaxed them could they have been written by dr. Davis maybe could he have been told this stuff anything's possible you know I don't know but I would say there's there's elements within them that aren't accurate namely when it goes into dr. Davis actually supposedly trying are scheming Mr Wilson supposedly trying to get into this program that has potentially crashed alien technology being told you know there's no access whatsoever and I believe he's even shown the bigoted list is it goes into and it says that there's no president there's no White House names there's no congressional people no congressional staffers you know again we talked about how how crazy wave saps are and so can I tell you that there wouldn't be congressional staff people on there I can't tell you that but the president not being on there first what the president doesn't need to be on a bigot and as he automatically has it secondly it goes into saying that that some sort of deal has been struck with with the Oversight Committee in which it is a complete government carve out and and that no US government employees are allowed access whatsoever we're not talking about us app anymore we're not talking about one that you're gonna find budget line items in the US government with and all this kind of stuff talking about a private company or you're talking about a illegal operation that we can only speculate but what is the benefit for the government there yeah I mean they're paying money to fund it what is the benefit because if you're not gonna let them have access and so but then the memo kind of contradicts itself and begins to list government people who are on the quote bigoted list which mean they have access so you know it goes there's kind of this weird ending to where it's very there's a lot of different contradictory elements they are where it's a a scary government carve out and their excuse me taxpayers are funding what appears to be a private cabal dart program with no government access but then here's all these government people who may have information about it and obviously government provide information about it because how would out role wasn't have found it and so no sorry go ahead yeah that you know that is that part right there I would say it's just inaccurate the other side that I say is just illogical in my opinion is it there's a part where they refuse to let supposedly this SAP refuses to let Admiral Wilson to have access with it because he's not on the biggest list so he shouldn't been shown to bigoted list he shouldn't know who has access because he's not a part of it and but then they proceed to go on and tell him what's in the program you know degree that's not how it does not how it works that that's not how it works okay and last lastly most importantly the director or deputy director of the Defense Intelligence Agency and this is the most important part everything else conjectures probably should have led with this my dad John is that the deputy director the director of Defense Intelligence says he doesn't have inherent access to a unacknowledged sort of SAP it's not out of the component office of the depart the defense intelligence agency in that memo they say that it is the budgetary the budgets are coming out of the office Undersecretary of Defense acquisitions and technology well then that isn't acquisitions and technology SAP the Defense Intelligence Agency would not be have a component office in it it would only add a maximum provide intelligence or counterintelligence support to an acquisition SAP and therefore the idea that Admiral Wilson would try to seek out the SAP or get mad doesn't make sense because he has no regulatory authority over an OSD OS udi SAP and unacknowledged SAP he wouldn't convene the senior review group or to see other SAP Oversight Committee he doesn't have access to that the current director of the DIA doesn't have access to PSAPs that aren't within their purview and so the regulatory authority there and it the memo tries they kinda I think you know dr. Davis supposedly he's trying to beef was it clear by saying why something - why are you mad why do you is do you have regulatory authority because the money budget is coming out of the DIA budget and core secret won't answer but again so if it's not coming out of a dia component office the yeah it's like it'd be like him going to McDonald's trying to order Burger King yeah he doesn't have access and he would know that he's a career is career military official director or deputy director dia it knows that before he goes to meet with these people so so bottom line then are you walking away that I know you said anything's possible but just to kind of get a bottom line of where you're at with them you you solidified that that there are hoaxes are leaning towards I should say or are you still on the fence like a bottom line after it's all said and done a bottom line is all the information that I have seen and seen access to I do not believe that they're authentic or their accurate depiction of real events okay with that said I've reached out to dr.

Davis I've reached out to the several people who who said they verified it I'm more than willing to listen so I'm not sitting here trying to be a quote debunker I can only go with the evidence that's given and and so if anybody would like to you know share some information or you know they say how they know that this is an accurate event or that this is this is definitely true man I'm all for it and it will be more glad to call you back up and demand you let me back on well any time you want to demand you're definitely back on I I think there's another interesting aspect to this that we don't have to get into now but I think it's the players involved you know it's who was let's say the notes are real the content decide if the notes are real who were they being written for and what was kind of the kick back were they justifying why they were maybe getting a paycheck or so on and I know that that sounds conspiratorial and silly but I think that that is really an aspect to these stories where we see a lot of the same names and we see a lot of the same figures that appeared over the last five 10 15 plus years that are making money that they're involved in organizations with corporations and so on that you know we have to look at that a lot of people don't want to but we have to look at that as potential motivation to craft these notes and say look this is what I'm doing for you this is what I'm involved in that justifies my paycheck I'm not making that accusation but I think that we definitely have to consider that as a possibility for you know these types of leaks to say no comment for dr. Davis I think is silly I you know either just answer you know I mean obviously you were pretty careless with the notes if they're real so now it's time to just kind of fess up and then get over it if they're fabricated by somebody who's looking to get their name back in the game all right well let's go on the record but the no comment thing I think is it's kind of silly real quick on the chatroom the garden forgotten by time made reference to the article on the drive recommending everybody to read it if you weren't here in the beginning that is Who I am speaking with retired police lieutenant Jim McMillian is the author of that article so he is the man behind that so so that is who we are chatting with James waro submitted a question I'm gonna throw it out there for you if you don't mind a question or two from the chat if chairman if the tic-tacs are something of human engineering would this fit in with the waiver SAP yeah I know absolutely potentially I mean when you're talking about waived you saps there's no talent I mean it you know and I think that's that's why they have so much potential for both myth and to a large part but you know let's let's be honest if there's an advantage of myth the size and technology that you want to keep secret yeah and so could you see counterintelligence efforts where you I mean that's you want people to believe it's something other than what it is because you want to protect what it is and so if indeed you know the tic-tacs of these objects and in reference to tic-tacs I'm aware of the nimitz encounter i believe there's some others but the 2004 nimitz encounter could these potentially be secret classified us technology and could they be part of a wave use app sure mi sure you know i think that has to remain on the table until otherwise proven yeah i mean as of right now they're not any known US technology that's out there so at a minimum if they're ours there yes they came out some some dark sap program if i can just throw a quick question out there do you if you don't mind me asking do you lean towards the tic-tac in select the Nimitz and those that are kind of described in that way are they us technology and potentially a SAP of some kind or are you still on the fence with that just kind of picking your brain to see where you're at no pressure or by the way if you said technology I'm hanging up no problem yeah I'll see you later I'm sure she's over yeah you know John I I don't know it's such a bad answer but the reason I say that is because there there's a considerable number of elements that I think could lean towards the potential that this could be something we're much more aware of but am i absolutely open to the idea that it could be something we're completely unaware of well sure I think one of the problems there isn't and you know it goes back to what you were just talking about is I think some of the biggest cases that would often capture the public's attention or or intentionally put out there to capture the public attention like the Wilson memos and all this kind of stuff you know there's these unknowns that linger that allow people to fill in the blanks and either infill whatever they want it to be Wilson memo again is a great example is that at the end of the day even if every single iota in that document is true Admiral Thomas Wilson was never done access inside whatever that program is and could the program security officer and everybody he's opposed Leeteuk to have told him a line of BS as counterintelligence sure it doesn't mean it's alien technology yeah he never saw it and so they see these same elements and all of this stuff with that said they're really fascinating one and the reason that I am interested in this in the field is that these are the ones that are not is well known and you know they're they're a little maybe lesser known but they have some more compelling evidence and because I feel like to some degree and my only concern with the tic-tac big roundabout way to circle back to it is is I don't find the tic-tac to be any different than I do Roswell Rendlesham forest these Wilson memos and everything else there's just enough to leave there's just enough info to make people believe if for certainty it's aliens if that's the way they want to learn lean or there's some information that would definitely lead you into the skeptical camp because hmm now this isn't that and it you know it seems like these big cases like that there's always that kind of element of duality to it and so I'm always really skeptical all those because it seems like they're they're so prone to human bias in our own influence in them that I'm not sure it makes getting the truth very difficult because the pundits can sell you know celebrities things you can sell a lot of things yeah to people who want to listen you said that saying I don't know is not a good answer starry sky chimed in on the chat no it's not a bad answer it's a very good answer in my opinion and they are absolutely right I always appreciate those that when they don't know they say they don't know there's too many people out there that if they don't know they just make it up and they'll just throw whatever out there to see what you believe here's a quiz don't Google I'm watching your hands who is in the gang of eight gosh and I would have to google it no mark corner I love I lost the darn I apologize to the chat person who put that in there or I give you shout out okay so you said Warner okay yep second his seven homies at Mitch McConnell there's two there's two who yeah yeah don't don't sweat don't sweat Adam yeah no I'm sorry no that's okay Adam Schiff Devin Nunez Richard burr Mark Warner Nancy Pelosi Kevin McCarthy Mitch McConnell Chuck Schumer not bad off for the top of my head huh not bad or with idea I just read it from my computers don't tell anybody not bad John and you know something that's worth noting then when you just read that list off those are the eight people who are the elected leaders who can have access and oversee they provide the oversight authority from the elected governance for saps how many people on that list have a background either from being in the military or technology sector that they could provide expert advice on that well I actually don't know the answer to have but I'm gonna guess none if Nancy Pelosi no offense to any Democrats or Pelosi supporters but if she's on that list that's kind of scary that she's involved in those programs in my personal opinion along with some of the other names too you're right no I mean I did look it up yeah you were able to Wikipedia the names quicker but I did look that up when I was researching sap article for just an interesting little kid did in all of them so is it none it's as no one has yeah it's none yeah no one no one there's legal backgrounds and everything and I do cover that in the article that any provides some very some real stories project timber win if people want to read about that they can read it and area 51 I if I know that the area 51 the storm area 51 event is real popular right now anybody that's considering doing that I highly encourage taking a moment you don't have to read the whole article I know I put together a lengthy piece but if you just scan to the part about area 51 literally above the law and take a gander there and realize what is legally allowed to be done to the very people who are working in era that they want lawfully and very patriotic people who work in some of these very darks defense programs what has been done to them and you tell me what you think they would do to people who crossed over that guard line and you see the level of performer workers and you you you bring up something really important I don't want to take up all of your time today but I didn't bring this up and I wanted to and I meant to so area51 give us the quick kind of backstory on the fact that they are essentially exempt from from from law I found that that section fascinating sure no I'd be happy to talk about that now take time to talk about it because I think it's fascinating I think it's something that I believe the American public and in a Democratic Republic we need to be aware of these things because if people aren't happy with it well that's why we're we have elected leadership so anyway off my soapbox but yes you know in the mid 90s people may not realize and this is important because this all occurs after the yellow fruit oversights and or have been implement and so you know we've got all this oversights in it you know like I said according the CD SC hey guys we fixed it all we're good now sorry won't happen again however you have the area 51 events and this involves you know several many of whom are unknown to this day because they couldn't come out of the dark secrecy they former workers of area 51 groom late the Nevada Test Site for those who don't know came out and they sought the legal help of a professor and legal scholar attorney Jonathan Turley is named one of the top 10 attorneys and related to military matters in the United States because they were suffering from just a host of really serious debilitating illnesses this was related to the fact that for years at area 51 and it may still continue to stay we don't know in order to dispose of classified top secret material rules and equipment they were digging large trenches out there on-site dousing them with jet fuel and setting them on fire and there's a great you know quote from mr. Turley where he talks about the employees at the time would call it London Fog these black plumes of literally toxic chemical smoke they would billow over the the facilities there and as one can probably imagine it's not a good idea both ecologically and to human public health and so a great number of former workers who have been exposed to this came down with various illnesses and the aim of their lawsuit back in the 90s was to try to it wasn't for money though it may have been for financial support to help pay for medical bills but the primary goal was to determine what they had been exposed to because you know if you know what you've been exposed to potentially doctors would have known how to treat what's going on and I mean I didn't go in depth and in the article but you're well anyone's welcome to do some research but in terms of some of the illnesses you know Wally Kaza and Bob Frost who both passed away from theirs I mean we're really horribly sounding skin illnesses that just I mean I feel is no one should have to go through and so it's scary but it was find out what happened and because of the secret city existed then the government literally yeah you know the lead attorneys were able to go to court and tell the judge don't know much talk about no such place exists never heard of it even though it you you know at this point you still had I think it's ticaboo peak or wherever you could see it from I mean people like no it's right there anyway zone interestingly it was only until he was he purchased a satellite photo of the base from Russia did they finally admit it and so the judge rejected state secrets claims which would have resulted to them having to disclose what had bit burned out there on the site for the workers sake however President Bill Clinton at the top of the executive food chain signed an executive order and that exempted the Nevada Test Site in the surrounding area they're operated by the Air Force from environmental protection disclosure laws that executive order has to be annually renewed and it has been annually renewed by every single US president since President Clinton signed it in I need 94 95 so all the way through Trump's been signing signing them as well president sure Republican Democrat yes President Clinton President Bush President Obama and now President Trump yes and it is just to kind of bottom-line that so it exempts any it exempts area 51 in the Nevada Test Site from any local federal law that may prohibit them from doing XYZ that that's what this does or allows them to kind of keep what they did in the past secret or all of the above all of the above and that is where it becomes scary now I'm glad you brought that up because I think that's important to discuss before people are aware of for all those newfangled rules regulations and oversight that I discussed i'ma just tipped on tipped them on the article as long as it is there's tons there completely toothless and meaningless when is that showed with a stroke of the pen no from an executive orders there is a system in place that can determine that secrecy is more important than basic civil rights under federal law those of us don't apply there and so now would it be fair to say the government doesn't like bad publicity Matt nobody does too soon is a business and so is that saying that they're still doing burning us out there I don't know I mean that's that's why people want to charge through and see them aliens we don't know what they're doing out there but uh you know I would like to truly hope that for no other reason than like I said II you know the the scary thing is is these are the workers they're these are the select few that are allowed access to that reclusive site that help work on technologies we assume you know maybe some of the greatest technological innovations have occurred out there and our paramount our national security and these are the people involved in that work I've been fortunate to meet some people who work there back in the 60s and 70s NK they're great people and so it's disturbing yeah if we're not taking care of them and we're putting them in an arm's way so I would maybe that's me and my wishful thinking I'd like to hope that that type of activity has ceased any sign of the yearly renewal by the president ceasing or you think that that's gonna be indefinite at this point you know it would take public you know it would take the public you know appealing to that strong storming area 51 is where you're going with it would take the public making that something that they think is important enough to the person the United States that they would feel like either getting elected or maintaining their elected position would be it would be worth them not signing it or at least you know I I understand and I know that you share this sentiment with me it is important to mitigate states secrets there's some things that should be remain secret and I do not take the stance that government is evil a big brother you know always quick to say you government's just people man I think all people they're good and bad but I do believe it is comprised the majority of good people however you know it would take people's saying that that that you know these are that they're people are getting taken care of and if there is elements there that aren't can't be disclosed publicly gosh I would hope that the very people who have kept those secrets to their grave could be trusted enough to with the keep the secret of what they have been contaminated with for their medical care that's that's disturbing part there because a lot of those people died and never shared those other secrets they were working on so yeah I would take the people but yes so one thing I think that it it take people knowing I mean that has been very quietly signed every year for two it's not like normally you know you see that the big signings in the Oval Office every president especially right after they get elected they're all smiling and shining and showing it they hadn't seen that her if it do one have you yeah yeah it's definitely something in the shadows Tim I know I kind of blew past our allotted amount of time but I you know you've always been gracious with it and I know you were joking before about demanding to be on the show but I hope you do you are welcome on the show and he's anytime you want to come on but also I really appreciate you I hate to call you this but kind of a guinea pig with this live stream format but I think it went out without a glitch or well you know not many that people noticed anyway so I really do appreciate your time and really kind of helping educate not only me but the audience as well about your extensive research on special access programs cool yeah no problem yeah anybody's welcome to reach out to me and you know you got any other questions I will try to answer as much as possible or maybe if there's something that you think is cool and want me to look into or you just think you you know you want to call me a jerk expect my message soon but thank you all for listening as well I really do appreciate you taking part in this live stream format Tim's article is in the description below so feel free to click on that link I highly recommend that you do that if you're interested in supporting the channel it's always a preachy appreciate it there are links in the chat description as well there's a patreon page patreon.com/lenguin wall jr signing off we'll see you next time