Ning Li, Podkletnov, Superconductors & Antigravity | Glen "Tony" Robertson

Transcript

[Music] [Applause] [Music] Okay. So, here with Tony Robertson, Glenn Tony Robertson in in your lab in your working lab at an undisclosed location. So, well, Tony, it is good to finally spend time with you. You you did pioneering work with superconductors with Pogllinoff's work and then uh Dr. Ning Lee, you were working alongside them and then you ran you co-chared the ISNPS state conference and then you ran the specific conference after that.

So you have been as deep into this area as anyone and much deeper than most for decades. Yeah. To be clear, I started working with Dean Lee before the NASA team formed. So, I go way back uh back into the late '9s with Ning Lee. And uh to be clear, we never did do the impulse experiment, which is what we're trying to do here.

We we were trying to do the rotating experiment of a 11 or 12 in superconductor disc. And we never tested that at all. But regardless of whatever the internet says, NASA never did do a test. Yeah. If I remember right, you were saying so and this goes back a long time, but I remember talking to you years ago back to about 1997 or 1998.

Yeah. Well, okay. So, let me let me go back to this is the history is starting to get cloudy now. So, in the late8s, I think it was 8990, right? P Eugene Pogangh came forward and said that if you rotate a superconductor it creates a column of reduced he felt reduced gravity 90 these papers only go back to well this was 2001 but I think the rotating experiment's only in the late 90s okay well could have been mid '90s to 90s but and he he he talked about if I remember right cuz the superconductor it's got you have the the steam steam coming off it right as the the you know the cryofluid evaporates and he said that formed a column above it. He felt there was a reduced gravity area and then he was um basically he was kind of running I guess up to floors above that and testing it.

He said there were multiple floors and he felt like there was a column of reduced gravity and then that kicked off a bunch of interest here in the United States and Dr. Ning Lee and a couple of her associates, they got they got involved. They were here in Huntsville. NASA. We we we had already formed the team at NASA.

Uh and then we heard about the McClintoff experiment and and and then Lee came with to us with her own experiment, which I'm not going to get into it, but it was not really her experiment that came with. But uh and then when we heard about the Clintonov experiment, we had already went from it from me and just being me and her to being me and a whole team of people led by Ron Klar and I had David no on the team at the at the time. And so we decided to go look at their rotating experiment did because it was only done at about 5,000 RPM where Ning wanted to do about 50,000 RPM. Okay. A lot of difference in speed.

So a different different way you do things. and and so we got on that bandwagon. So it really wasn't Ning Le's experiment that that we were doing. It was the Latinoff experiment we were trying to trying to do and Ning Lee was just a team member. Yeah.

Under NASA. Okay. The team was not Ning Le's. It was the NASA team that Ning Lee was part of. And then her her approach to it, she kind of relabeled it AC gravity.

And then her thought was you could do positive or negative with the superconductor. She had her own theory. She had a paper and again the paper itself has some questions about it but I'm not going to get into that either. But uh but in her in the paper I there was way I understood it was that the paper said that if there's a factor that you put in these equations that's normally set to zero. And the paper suggested that if it wasn't zero uh then you could see a gravity effect.

Okay. Okay. And I don't know where she got the AC out of it. But uh but but during that time frame she did do a lot of stuff on her own and promoting herself and what she was doing through UAH. So I can't say what she was thinking.

Yeah. Yeah. She had a lot of irons in the fire. I remember that. Yeah.

So, but uh but but anyway, we never NASA never did do the experiment. We we only made superconductors and try to determine if what we were making was correct. We never made one that we thought was correct. The money ran out and we stopped. Well, and so Ponloff, he had originally I I believe he claimed he was using like a 12in superconductor.

Yeah, somewhere around 11 or 12 in is I remember correctly. I don't remember. And so one of the challenges, if I remember right, one of the challenges was nothing that large has been made in the US and I think there was a subcontractor that was involved to try and make that originally. Right. No, originally we were doing it in house and we ting Lee.

We would press them in at Marshall using a a million ton press, but we didn't need that much. But we use a million time press to press the the big ones. And I even made 11 inches myself, you know. So uh but uh then but uh then we would give that crest thing to Ning Lee who had NASA had given her money to buy the furnaces. They had them out at UAH so she would fire them out at UAH but she would never give them to us.

You know the concept was that we pressed this sheath uh fires it prop the prop way it's supposed to be and then give them back to Marshall to do a sample analysis of it. you know, cut it up and use our fancy equipment uh to see if it looks correctly inside, but she never would give us any of them. Okay. She we never got any that she made at all. I saw a few of them and most of the ones I saw had actually turned green, which is a different phase of the YBCO.

And uh so so we never got so we so so we got frustrated with her and started making them ourselves. So we made a few in-house ourselves. Most of them cracked. Yeah. And uh during the fire and everything, I I I even made one that was about a quarter inch thick that was about 11 and a half inch in hammer myself that I that I fired and it didn't crack until after I cooled it and then when it was warm back up, it cracked.

Well, that was one of the surprising things for me, right? It's the it's the engineering challenges that you don't think about when you're reading about it, you know, in the news. But so, yeah, the the cracking, especially with the larger sizes. Another one was, if I remember right, these tend to disintegrate when you're spinning them up, right? And yeah, we were going to we were going to put, you know, like a teflon no Kevlar ring around it or something like that or some kind of place ring to keep it from coming apart. But we never got that far. Yeah, that far.

And uh but yeah, the the supertor also deteriorates from moisture. Okay. So when you're when you're cooling it down at room uh atmospheric pressure and when it starts warming back up, it moisture condenses and that moisture can deteriorate the super conductor completely break them down. In fact, I used to make make them and then the way I would would would rather than spending the time grinding them, I'd throw them in a bucket of water and let the water disintegrate and then pour the water off and let it dry out. That's the way I reuse the powders.

Well, then there there was also another thing that I remember and I think this was one of the areas you were getting into was so there's there's a glaze that forms on the outside of it and so the structure isn't completely homogeneous, right? You've got a different crystal structure inside of the superconductor. Texture it. You they put they call it a top seed milk texturing. You put a little seed of a superc conductor material that's not YBC but be like cesium BCO. Okay.

Or or something other element you put in there that that wouldn't melt at the same temperature that the YBCO will. You put them on top. You take it up to I think I was actually looking at around almost,00 C and let it sit there for like I don't I forget what it is almost like 3 days and then you bring it down slowly about one one C an hour for about 100 hours or so and that so from those seeds it would form a crystal structure that was basically eight siding crystal through the sample itself. So that crystallin structure would then kind of um map the non super to super crystal layer and growth through the through the samples. Okay.

Okay. So I we never I made some small ones that look pretty good but the crystals were you know maybe the size of a pencil head in it. Well Oak Ridge sent us one that had crystals in it that were probably an inch in diameter. Real big crystals. Real pretty thing.

and moisture killed it. It took all pieces after using it a while. Yeah. So that that I mean and the only reason I mention all this is uh you know again when you read about it in the news it's like okay superconductor spinning gravity it should be a pretty simple test but there's a lot that goes into it especially in terms of chemistry materials engineering you know and then you've got the mechanical stresses and like and again I think you told me this years ago uh NASA only got it up to I think a couple hundred RPM or something. We never NASA NASA never spun one.

We got we got a uh Ron Kosar got an SBIR through a company I think out of Illinois. It could have been Indiana but somewhere up north who kind of redid what we did and they got to the point where they levitated one in a crowd. It was never rotated either. So no rotation was ever done between NASA or the SBI. Okay.

Okay. Okay. We never rotated him. Now, do did Ning Lee, do you know if she rotated them or? No. Okay.

So, so really the Pontinoff experiment was never really replicated here in the US. It was never done. The rotating was never done by NASA, but if you read the read the internet, it says it did. Yeah. Never did it.

Never never did the test. We only did some preliminary work to make the superconductor both at NASA and through the SBI. That's all we did. The The only difference between what we did at NASA and what the SBR did is they made a levitation system in a cryotank show that they could levitate what they made. We never even did that with the big one.

We never levitated. Okay. So, we should put a pin in that one. NASA never completed a replication of the pod rotating superconductor. And and that's not to be negative against NASA.

It's just pretty darn complicated and hard to build. it the team structure fell apart on the NASA side. That's what between even the NASA people and N Lee. It just Yeah. It got to the point where everybody's going into different directions and then we ran out of money.

So yeah, lots and lots of stuff going on. I've got a small sample that's milk texture. Yeah. Do you do you want to show me? Yeah. If I can find it quickly, if you notice all these ones that have broken up, that used to be big pieces at one time.

Uh, let's see. This is what you would call melt melt textured seed, top seed grow. And if you can, if you can see it reflecting, you can see the crystallin structures trying to form around the seeds. You see need the light reflecting off of it to see those crystals. Okay.

So that's the melt texture. So they put again it's it's a small kernel of other superconductor on top of the YBCO. Yeah. And you take, like I said, you it takes about a week to make this because you're sitting in about a 100 hours it uh Yeah. So, this is kind of like pottery.

And I remember reading about the process for this. And so, you you put it into the kiln [Music] and you have to leave it there for a period of time and you have to take the temperature up and then bring it back down slowly if I remember right. Yeah. to just center it where you can test it for super conductivity is not very long. This is centered.

Okay, let me let me go back in there and see if this There we go. That looks like it's about 6 in in diameter. Yeah, I've lost the 6 in die. So, you have to you press these to get them into the right shape and then you center them. But we might be able to crush this down and reuse the material.

Yeah. And it looks like there are a lot of lot of experiments in there. That's a mini uh rotating disc. Oh, and we were trying to make one like this that was 11 or 12 ines in diameter. Uh, this was actually made for a different project, but this one's all destroyed in moisture over time.

So, so you're working on new experiments. This is not a new experiment. We're trying to replicate the ones that are described in these two papers. These two papers are are basically talk about the same experiment except this is the non-published version. This is the published version.

Okay. Uh let me see if I can lock onto that with my go over here to this one too. I put that hat. I can go find that if I want to. That address There is a little difference in some of what they talk about is just the papers.

So you have to pay attention to both papers. Um it the larger one tells you actually more detail how to make the super conductor than a smaller paper does. But basically what I'm talking about in this is putting a uh a 48 superconductor on a basically on a crow head so you can cool the supeructor down. It's in a vacuum chamber and and uh way they talk about it they take it down to about 10 miltor which basically is a good brand new roughing top get you 10 mil and then and then he says that it crows down to about 7.2. too, which I assume that's when they cool the super conductor down and the tubular starts acting like a pryop pump and pulling it up.

And what he talks about in the paper that's really interesting is that he says when they initiate the discharge, a white cloud forms over the top of the superconductor and then moves a single body hitting the grounding plane hard enough that it makes an impression the size of of that cloud which I assume is around 4 in in diameter. And to do that, that cloud had to be in a most condensing state. You had to act like it was a solid piece of material hitting that grounding state. Yeah, that is interesting. And it if that's true, that's the largest sample of of a condensate that's ever been produced in the world.

Well, and that reminds me of let me see, excuse me. This is not his So, he had the force beam generator, too. That's Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah, I know.

Okay. I what I'm talking about here is not this is the impulse experiment. Uh uh we learned about the impulse experiment after we brought over to talk to came to NASA and he said by the way you know we're doing this other experiment where we're impulsing and and then shortly after that the papers came out and stuff. So he told us kind of I don't know about first but he told us about it. Yeah.

And so and and again just for you know whoever watches this. So PLO had two different experiments and and people get really confused about that. The rotating larger disc was done in Finland. The impulse experiment from what he said was done in the basement of a university building in Moscow. Yeah.

And the test we're trying to do here is the impulse experiment, not the rotating one. Uh after we found out about the impulse experiment, I I basically told him, he said, you know, that's a better better test, it might be easier than even rotating test. But at the time, um Markx banks weren't that available. In fact, we were we contacted a company that wanted like $200,000 for a marks bank that you can basically buy now for like, you know, few hundred. Uh and uh that's what we got here.

This is part of a marks bank that will mount mount up. Okay. So, it's going to go up there. Yeah. So, you're basically doing a high energy high voltage high energy pulse.

And if I remember right, for him he talked about something up to 500,000 volts, right? Yeah. Then we put this is about a 600,000 volt stage. And then and this will give you about another 300,000 volts. We're going to put them together, but that's at full voltage. And we don't want to overstress the cap.

So we we probably be less than that, but we still probably can get close to 700 to to 800,000 volts out of this system. Yeah. The problem is is that the paper doesn't discuss the jewel rating of the marks bank that he uses. Okay. So the jewel rating on this might be too too small.

So we've got plans uh to build a big build a bigger one so we can get a higher dual rating because I I did a paper where if you look at the layering in the superconductor and assume there are capacitors the the jewel uh the volt at 500,000 volts the jewel rating would be like two orders of magnitude higher than what this will give. So so we don't know if this will give us a proper impulse. So, we'll have to skip two together marks make up until we see something. And he had talked about um if I remember right, warping thick pieces of metal with it. Yeah.

150 m and crushing brick. He was probably up around 200 megabolts when he was doing that. Yeah. So, if this was a gravitational wave, I mean, this Yeah. And there incredible potential for this.

That's the reason why we're going to point it towards the ground. So if we get sight and we grab people showing up, we know we did something. But if you just stand here and look at this thing. Okay. So then what what we're building is we'll have a Carl chamber in here.

The bottom will be in this in in the vacuum chamber in this glass vacuum chamber. It'll be clamshell between here with the car epoxy so that we won't have any vacuum leaks in here. We'll also tap the high voltage to the chamber. So that becomes our high voltage electrode too. So we pour liquid nitrogen in.

We'll cool the superconductor down. We'll have to do some profiling test with the superconductor with some uh thermalouples so we can get a gauge on how long it takes it to cool down because we don't want the thermalouples in there during the high voltage test or we can destroy instruments or arc places it doesn't want. So after we profile the temperature of the superconductor and take electrodes out and dump it down, then we've got then what's not in the paper is that we don't know what the discharge distance is. So we'll have to play around with the distance between the super conductor and the grounding plate to determine how far it has to be apart. and in and 500 kov volts in the atmosphere is about 19 in a vacuum that uh we don't know I mean it should be longer be actually in a vacuum so we don't know so we have to get it closer for us to actually discharge we don't know what that distance is if you go by the drawings in the paper and assume that the chamber is around 1 ft and everything's to scale uh then we can get an approximation of what we think that distance, but uh it may not be right.

We'll have to figure it out ourselves. And then we have a chamber here. It actually was part of a a NASA test that Tim Pickins had bought using the grounding plane. So it'll shoot so basically it'll shoot into the ground off of the Marks bank down here and we we'll be able to So in this in this setup, so you've got the MarkX bank on the right. Mark can come up possible.

It's going to go over the top down through the chamber and down into the ground. Then the grounding we're going to put a um we have an electrode that we're going to put in one side. This this side actually be rotated around here. We'll drill a hole in this and we'll bring the ground down through here. So if if this if this works, this may actually in theory this can actually crush the concrete underneath it.

We're not going to test it here. Okay, we're going to do prelim all the preliminary test here and then when we do the gravity test, we're going to go out in the middle of the field somewhere. So the the other thing that Paul Clonoff talked about, he wasn't as forthright about this, but he'd said that there were strange effects behind the superconductor. Yeah. I asked him uh when he was when he came over, he says, "What what did you see anything about the other direction?" Yeah.

His response was, "Yeah, if you stand there, you'll you'll it'll burn your skin." That's what he told me. Yeah. And uh so we So my assumption is is that he's putting gravity wave out one way and DM beam out the other way. Okay. That's the reason you're getting because they have very high microwave energy coming out the other side.

That would make sense. That's another reason why it's up this way cuz we don't want to destroy people's equipment but in one direction and kill people in the other direction. So with the blue chamber then is there anything unique about that? Is that that's a vacuum chamber? Yeah found this and that's part of it too. It was some kind of balloon experiment that had a a helium chamber in it. It was had an inferometer built inside.

They were looking for something up in atmosphere. So Tim said it looks pretty. Let's use it. So, so we're using this part of it. We got the rest of it over here, but I don't really need it.

But, uh, so this is going to be our ground. This helps protect it. The the hole that's uh built into the plate at the top of here is is comes out to here. So, it's a lot bigger than that hole. So, the the grounding plane will actually be real close to the hole to start with.

And we'll move it downward. And if we have to go down really far, then we might put a a plexiglass tube to help protect it from trying to go sideways and that. And if we have to go real far, what's the other piece on it? And yeah, bigger chamber. So you mentioned Tim Pickkins. I I guess one thing I should ask about is you're you're putting together a team, right? This is the coalition of the willing contact and said, you know, I really would like to do that super experiment.

I said, well, let's do it. I've been wanting to do it anyway. I had bought another chamber that's in the other room in there to do that experiment, but I never went after it because of the fact that, you know, like I said earlier was that Marx Banks, they wanted like $200,000 for a marks bank back in the day. Yeah. And then I found out, hell, everybody in their brain is making one nowadays, you know, and so you can So, they're not that hard to make.

It It's not still not cheap. About 10 bucks a piece. So, there's 30 in here. So, and I don't know how much the resistors are. So, in terms of this system, you talked about trying to do some testing maybe later this year, right? So, towards the end of 2025, probably won't be doing any testing till next year.

Okay. Because I'm going to be busy all summer. So, basically, I'm I'm through with this. I, you know, I may when I'm not busy, I may do some more stuff. But, uh, we still need some more parts.

We I just ordered the flange that we need adapt to this for that. And but Tim's already tested this so we know it's working. Well, I I'll tell you, I'm super excited that you're getting back into this, especially putting together, you know, a team to work on this. I mean, Ningly, there were lots of conspiracy theories, but the the takeaway like Paul Merid kept in touch with her, you know, and her son is still out there. She she got sick and she passed.

That's, you know, and what I heard was that after we ran out of money with NASA, she got about $400,000 from the army and was doing something. What she was doing, I I I just know she was still doing suitc. But what I heard was she was doping it with some stuff that she should have been wearing a full mass suit and stuff. It pretty and so she got sick from that. Okay.

And then she got uh breast cancer. Yeah. and she went back to China for a while to do the Chinese med for breast cancer and she came back and then as far and then after she came back I actually met her and talked to her about it but but uh I don't believe she ever did anything after she came back. Yeah, that was kind of my takeaway is is that it just kind of stalled out, right? I mean there you know and again it's one of those things. I mean there's so many ideas that kind of come and go, right? And the media spotlight kind of moved on.

One of the problems that actually killed T killed anybody other funny is because the internet started saying that NASA completed the test and didn't see anything. So nobody wanted to put no more money into it. But we never completed the test. We never did the test. Yeah.

And and so and and everybody who has ever claimed to do the test that I've read their paper never did the test to the degree that these papers talk about. They they would either have have too low a voltage uh too small a superconductor not a two-layer superconductor. There's always something not right in all those experiment. In fact, most of them were done with like 2in disc or smaller and an athlete didn't didn't say said he had a 4 inch but it was just two layer. I mean it wasn't two layer.

It wasn't two layer and I don't believe he went up to the high enough voltage. I could be wrong about that but I don't but uh uh he he was the closest person to doing the test but it still wasn't the test described in the paper. Well, and then I've I've kept up with Poglov. It's been a couple of years, but he basically went back into more traditional work in Russia and it was the same issue, right? He just couldn't sustain the funding. And so there were lots of conspiracy theories about the Russian government, you know, doing this, that, and the other thing.

But from what he had told me, basically, it it just, you know, the the media spotlight moved on and the funding ran out over time. And he, you know, he's like everybody else. He has to earn a living. Olaf actually claimed that he was able to see a gravity effect from a non-s superconductive material too. Uh I forget what he said it was but uh he did claimed and done done some other experiment with non-suptors that saw a similar effect.

Yeah. So one of the things and I started exploring this a little bit more earlier in the year. Um and I'm sure you're aware of this too, right? Russia has this independent scientific community. they don't communicate with the US that well and Pogangh was working with two or three other people over there and part of it is the language barrier right but then part of it is just poor communication and I kept thinking you know if we were able to communicate more effectively between these two cultures maybe we could solve these issues together so yeah but I I could be wrong but the Clinton especially the rotating experiment did not know his own experiment And uh at least that's the way my impression was uh from from what I gathered was is that the the large super that he was using was borrowed. He didn't make it.

It was borrowed. Uh and from looking at the experiment and and uh and what they were doing to the super detector, my impression was that the what they were trying to really do with the rotating experiment was to see if they could uh use a super material as a radar type shield. Okay. And and how they found out that there was some some type of gravity uh effect going on was that the Clinton sponsor at Finland University he was at was a pipe smoker who came into the room. That's right.

It was pipe one day and the pipe smoke put over the experiment and started rising above the experiment and since it was in a closed chamber that that even though it was uh super being pulled the chamber wasn't really getting cold. So, so they ruled out a cryofix and said, you know, something else is going on. So, then they went and put a test nest above it and saw that it lost weight. Yeah. Yeah.

It's been a while starting to fade out. I was thinking it was steam off the nitrogen, but it it wasn't. It was pipe smoke. I remember pipe smoke. Yeah.

You know, we we actually talked to the daughter who had died the time we talked to her and she told us the big stories and stuff. Well, and then Pon Clarov actually flew out here to help NASA, right, for a while. He Well, he flew out here and talked with us for you a day or two. And so we just grilled him questions and stuff. He he never really helped us here.

We Okay. We're f under the SBIR that Ron Koser got in place. They were paying Craig Clinton off to um be an adviser. Well, they paid plentiful a lot of money at the SB with pies. But from what I've been told and gathering that a lot of the money that they spent in the SB went to pay Clint uh and to do experiment do make super conductors and Clintonov suggested like he was learning how to make the super conductor.

In other words, it wasn't just oh you make it this way. He said oh let's try this, let's try that, let's try this. So fentanyl didn't understand the super conductor and I'm sorry but that's the impression that I I have is he didn't understand well so we're we're going on 30 years now with these superconductor experiments. So I mean you're still working on it so you obviously think there's something there there right? So it has the experiment really needs to be repeated to the degree that the papers talk about until you can actually do that. It's all speculation and there and there are holes in the paper.

You know like I said there there it doesn't tell you what the jewels uh or energy rating is of the marks bank that he uses. We don't know that. We don't know what the discharge distance is that he actually used in his experiment. Um, so there's some uncertainties that we'll have to learn ourselves what we're going about because the paper doesn't tell us exactly what they are. He he does have a a good detail of how to make the super duct in here, but all that material about making super dirt within these papers is what he learned through the S NASA SBI.

Okay. And so so we can't really guarantee that's true either because if if he was just trying to learn how to make super connector who made the super connector and how really was it made? So that's so the zoo itself is an uncertainty. Yeah. Although one of the I think one of the advantages and we were talking about this on the drive over one of the advantages now to having all this time in there is um a lot of time to analyze what could be potentially going on. A lot of new physics.

uh you talked about a lot of complex basically energy transfer inside of the superconductor, right? Yeah, I wrote a paper um that's in the um the gravity book that that I edited with Monahan. I think it's chapter 4. Uh and that that describes how you can get an energy wave out of a superconductor. Okay. And so I went into some great detail on some of the super conductor effects that could be involved in in in this.

So that's a great reference even if uh even if part of it's not true it is a great reference of all the things that you that could lead up to a gravity wave coming from a super I even used the gravity wave equation out of Wheeler Meer and Thor book big book so the and I and the the force I came up with uh matched what claimed he saw so whether whether it's just um whether I was making the fit or not, it did come out. I didn't try to make it fit. It did come out to be that. Okay. But but having have knowing what the results are kind of affect what you do.

So I can't say that it's 100% true, but but it's in that paper that that shows that you can get a gravity wave out here. If you can move these uh um move a number of these uh Cooper pairs fast enough, then you get you you can just from that motion get a gradual weight grade. Since then, I've got another model I've been working on that kind of suggested this might be something different which which I'm hoping this test will help me improve my model too. uh but uh but my model doesn't rely on the gravity wave equation and a different set of equations but um so I'm going to try to correlate my stuff to this if we see something we don't see something I can't I can't do that but well and then there's also this big maybe right but superconductors because they are hard to work with if we can figure out what could be potentially going on inside of those maybe we could apply that to like again we were talking about 2D materials and lots of other, you know, novel things that have been developed over the last few years, right? If you can understand what causes gravity, then you can then make things that maybe don't need the product. Yeah.

So the process is a big no no when you're trying to do something in space is because you you would basically have to turn your whole craft into a cryo chamber. You know and that's that's almost an impossibility to space. I I I believe we will eventually go to space but we can't go to space using the current technology. Well Tony thank you so much. Thank you so much.

It's just truly an honor to be able to see your lab and see everything you're working on.